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Author Topic: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?  (Read 4011 times)

Erik Diamond

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How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« on: October 21, 2008, 12:09:43 AM »
Indeed, how will we, the Saints, judge the angels? Exactly who are the angels? 

In case you did not know, Tony Warren has posted his newest article, "How Shall The Saints Judge Angels" recently.  You can read all about it at http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/How_Shall_The_Saints_Judge_Angels.shtml.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Diane Moody

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 08:23:45 AM »
Erik,
 So you think that the two witnesses with judgment from their mouths is how we shall judge angels? Are you saying that those who are hurt by the two witnesses are corresponding to 1st Corinthians.

 Revelation 11:6
 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will".

Are you saying that shutting heaven and turning waters to blood is judging angels? How so?

bloodstone

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 05:32:33 PM »
Erik,
 So you think that the two witnesses with judgment from their mouths is how we shall judge angels? Are you saying that those who are hurt by the two witnesses are corresponding to 1st Corinthians.

 Revelation 11:6
 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will".

Are you saying that shutting heaven and turning waters to blood is judging angels? How so?

No answer huh? Everyone's busy these days. Let me see if I can try and help you a little bit Diane. This is my understanding of it. The Two witnesses are the Church. So that fits perfectly with Paul's comment in 1st Corinthians that "we" shall judge angels. we are the witnesses of the Church. Also, remembering that the rulers there are called Angels of the Church, just like in Revelation chapter 1. The word means messenger just like Tony said, not Angel.

Now, notice it says the power is from the Witnesses mouths, and also that one of the powers is that they turn waters to blood. That is a symbolic phrase that speaks of the waters of the gospel becoming death to them. Because by their word (the word of God from the Witnesses in the Church) there will be death and no more water to drink there. It will all be as blood instead. I believe that is done by the word of God telling the saints to come out, and that takes the waters of the gospel away and leaves them blood to drink. See how that fits?

And it is the same with them causing it not to rain. The rain is also the waters of the word of God, and there is a famine of no water upon these who hurt the witnesses. And also the plagues are judgments of God's word. In other words, just as Moses brought the plagues upon Egypt by the word of God, so these two witnesses bring these plagues upon the Church. Because the Church becomes spiritual Egypt. It even says so in verse 8.

 Revelation 11:8
 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified".

 The Church has become spiritually Egypt, and that is why the plagues resemble those brought upon Egypt by God at the hand of Moses.

I hope that helps you understand a little better. You can't think of the word as Angels, because it's messengers.

 

David Knoles

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 09:12:40 AM »
More Tony Warren spiritualizing. The amillennial heresy must pervert Scripture, spiritualize Scripture, and change the Scriptures, for it to even gain a remote possibility of being accepted as true. Everyone who is a amillennialist will have the wildest spiritualizing stories you have ever heard. And yet most of these do not like or believe several other Catholic doctrines, traditions, and heresies. Why then, do they hold on to this teaching instead of accepting a literal view of the bible. Stop spiritualizing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

See what that says. Literally, we shall judge angels. Accept the literal word.

Philly Dawg

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 10:02:43 AM »
More Tony Warren spiritualizing. The amillennial heresy must pervert Scripture, spiritualize Scripture, and change the Scriptures, for it to even gain a remote possibility of being accepted as true.

Ha Ha Ha Ha!


Quote
Stop spiritualizing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

See what that says. Literally, we shall judge angels. Accept the literal word.


Hey Genius! In the LITERAL, it is literally Messenger. ...did you finish high school?


(Young's Literal Translation)
 1 Corinthians 6:3
have ye not known that we shall judge messengers? why not then the things of life?


(Concordant Version)
1 Corinthians 6:3
3 Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?
  Kellyanne Conway: Sometimes Trump Lies Because
 He Doesn't Know the Truth, Okay?

George

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 11:57:41 AM »
Its translated Angel in my Bible. That's all I know.

George

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 11:59:16 AM »
More Tony Warren spiritualizing.



Yes, like the spiritualizing of the Desire of women in the other thread. LOL

Mitchell

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 09:10:52 PM »
Sorry, not buying it.

Barns commentary:

Verse 3. Shall judge angels. All the angels that shall be judged, good or bad. Probably the reference is to fallen angels, as there is no account that holy angels will then undergo a trial, The sense is, "Christians will be qualified to see the justice of even the sentence which is pronounced on fallen angels. They will be able so to embrace and comprehend the nature of law, and the interests of justice, as to see the propriety of their condemnation. And if they can so far enter into these important and eternal relations, assuredly they ought to be regarded as qualified to discern the nature of justice among men, and to settle the unimportant differences which may arise in the church." Or, perhaps, this may mean that the saints shall in the future world be raised to a rank m some respects more elevated than even the angels in heaven. (Prof. Stuart.) In what respects they will be thus elevated, if this is the true interpretation, can be only a matter of conjecture. It may be supposed that it will be because they have been favoured by being interested in the plan of salvation--a plan that has done so much to honour God; and that to have been thus saved by the immediate and painful intervention of the Son of God, will be a higher honour than all the privileges which beings can enjoy who are innocent themselves.

Betty

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 08:15:18 AM »
Indeed, how will we, the Saints, judge the angels? Exactly who are the angels? 

In case you did not know, Tony Warren has posted
Erik

Guys, I've noticed Erik is always pushing Tony Warren's articles. I think he is in love with the man.

Erik, this is a discussion forum, not a post Warren articles forum. Stay within the rules.

Bible in Basic English
1 Corinthians 6:3
Is it not certain that we are to be the judges of angels? how much more then of the things of this life?

David Knoles

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 03:23:55 PM »
Indeed, how will we, the Saints, judge the angels? Exactly who are the angels? 

In case you did not know, Tony Warren has posted
Erik

Guys, I've noticed Erik is always pushing Tony Warren's articles. I think he is in love with the man.

 )laugh( LOL!


Quote
Erik, this is a discussion forum, not a post Warren articles forum. Stay within the rules.


 Yes, I've noticed that too. I wonder if Erik ever has an original thought  :)

 I am willing to "discuss" the article I post, because they are literally from the bible, literally.

  http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/2ad_pre.html

 Amilllennialists have to spiritualize everything because they don't believe in literal theology. The article above explains we shall judge angels. Just as the bible says.


Hullabaloo

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 05:26:30 PM »
Since you seem to be so concerned with the "literal" meaning of the Holy Writ, I think you should consider well the words of our Lord:

Quote
John 6:63 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

The spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

The very words of Christ are indeed spiritual.

Reformer

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 08:41:47 AM »
Guys, I've noticed Erik is always pushing Tony Warren's articles. I think he is in love with the man.


 As children of God, we all love our brethren and sisters in the Lord. Of course you and your ilk would know nothing about that.  The fact is, Erik has more bible knowledge in his baby toe, than you guys have in your whole bodies combined. David, the next time you add anything useful and biblical to a discussion here will be the first.

 And because you are ignorant of the bible facts, let me explain it to you. God didn't inspire the word angel used, that is a translation. The Hebrew word inspired by God is "malak", and the Greek word inspired by God is "aggelos", and they both literally mean Messenger, not Angel. Angel is a translation. But what do you guys care about biblical facts or truth?

As for Tony Warren, he needs no defense from me, the Spirit speaks on his behalf. Read your Bible is all that I can suggest to you. That maybe God may have mercy.





Erik Diamond

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 12:57:35 AM »
Quote from: Diane Moody
Erik,
So you think that the two witnesses with judgment from their mouths is how we shall judge angels? Are you saying that those who are hurt by the two witnesses are corresponding to 1st Corinthians.

Revelation 11:6
"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will".

Are you saying that shutting heaven and turning waters to blood is judging angels? How so?

Greeting in the Lord, Diane.

Let us read Revelation 11 and find out more about how Two Witnesses prophesy for 1,260 days.   

Revelation 11:3

  • And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Here, God gave Two Witnesses the POWER to prophesy 1,260 days.  Not only they prophesy salvation unto men, but also judgment.  In same context, we read:

Revelation 11:6

  • These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Notice that it is the same power Two Witnesses received at Pentecost to began their 1,260 symbolical day ministry.


Acts 1:8

  • But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

It is the power of Holy Spirit that dwells within Saints (Two Witnesses) so they can PROPHESY or WITNESS to the world.  To bring some into salvation while judge the angels (messengers)!

Beside salvation, Two Witnesses has power or ability to shut heaven so it rain not during their prophecy as often as they will.  What rain is this? Let visit Zechariah 14 and find out:

Zec 14:8-9


  • And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
  • And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16-18

  • And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
  • And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
  • And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The Living Waters came from the Cross. Half of Living Waters went to “former sea” which I believe is Jews, being first.  Another half of Living Waters also went to “hinder sea” which is Gentiles, which came last.  The Living Waters will only rain upon God's Elects, not everyone else.  There are "messengers" who claimed to be Christians, but do not come to worship the King or keep the feast of tabernacles, they receive NO RAIN!  That is why God gave the power to Two Witnesses so they could shut heaven or turn waters (of gospel) into blood as often as they will, wherever they go into the world. 

The 1,260 days was the entire New Testament era or church age.  If you will read about 2,000 years of church history, you will see how Saints suffered under the persecution of various people where they do not like their prophesy.  Try read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. They have tried to hurt Two Witnesses. But despite tribulation, Two Witnesses still stand up for Truth and prophesy against them.  Many people who tried to hurt (or kill) Saints, will not hear the truth or get saved.  They have tried but unsuccessfully to stop or destroy the power of Two Witnesses. However what happen when 1,260 days were up?

Remember how Two Witnesses received POWER to prophesy (or testify) at the beginning of 1,260 day ministry?  Well, that power will be scattered when beast came out of bottomless pit at the end of 1,260th day which was the beginning of Great Tribulation period.

Rev 11:7-8


  • And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
  • And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

With Two Witnesses being killed by the beast, their power to prophesy has been scattered as prophesied in Daniel:

Dan 8:24


  • And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people

Dan 12:7 

  • And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The POWER  of the Holy People (Two Witnesses) have been scattered after 1,260 days. Why? Through Two Witnesses, God has ALL of His People He intended to saved have been sealed.  After this, the power of Holy Spirit out of the way, Satan is able to come out and deceive messengers "without seal of God" in the church and do whatever they want with their false doctrines, now that they have rejoiced that the testimony of Two Witnesses no longer tormented them...even today!

Rev 11:8-10

  • And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
  • And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
  • And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

You see, they have been tormented by Two Witnesses for 1,260 days, but no more. That is why the wicked messengers are now taking control of the great city.  They have one mind and will give THEIR POWER and STRENGTH unto the beast, for one hour (Rev 17:13-17). 

After 3-1/2 days lying dead in the city, the SPIRIT OF GOD has come upon Two Witnesses so they can start seeing abomination of desolation and prophesy against these wicked messengers as they flee from the city. I do not speak for other people here, but that is when I personally believe we are today.

Hope this helps,

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Melanie

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2018, 06:26:27 PM »
In conjunction with this Angel, Messenger controversy, and in my dealing with this subject over the years I have come to agreement that this does speak of our judgment of messengers. These are people of the church, not supernatural angels. And I believe this judgment started at the cross. Revelation chapter 20 tells us that judgment was given to the the saints that reign with Christ. Additionally, we know that the Greek word for judge is "krino," which also pertains to ruling and governing. Now see what Christ promised the saints in Matthew.

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt. 19:28"

The regeneration is when we have been raised up in Christ. It's the same as the first resurrection or when we become saved. We live and reign with Christ and have this judgment over the 12 tribes of Israel, which are God's messengers. People, not angels. If I'm understanding this correctly, this verse also proves we are judging messengers (the 12 tribes) not angels. Do you agree or disagree?


Tim Norton

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2018, 04:20:14 AM »

Are you saying that  Matthew 19:28 is not future, but now? How do you figure that?

 


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