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Author Topic: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?  (Read 14125 times)

Stan Pat

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2008, 10:43:43 AM »
Reformer, I like you too, but you can be quite unkind at times.

Tony, good points. But when you say they go to be with the Lord, you are saying they are conscious of this correct?


Erik Diamond

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2008, 10:58:32 AM »
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Tony, good points. But when you say they go to be with the Lord, you are saying they are conscious of this correct?

Of course, they were conscious of this.  Moses and Elijah were conscious when they spoke with Christ.   The thief of the Cross was conscious when he went to be with Lord in Paradise (heaven) on that very day the moment after he dead.  All the souls of the Saints were conscious when they reign upon thrones in heaven with Christ.  Why did you might think they were not?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2008, 11:07:25 AM »
>>>
Tony, good points. But when you say they go to be with the Lord, you are saying they are conscious of this correct?
<<<

Yes. I believe scripture that illustrates that when they go to be with the Lord, they actually go to be with the Lord. In other words, it's not a metaphor. We live in two places. In the body, on earth. And when we die, in our souls in heaven. Meaning, we will never die in the sense of not having conscious existence, because we live eternally. While the rest of the dead do not. When an unbeliever dies, he doesn't have conscious existence again until the second resurrection. That is what it means by "lived not again until.."

Revelation 20:4
  • "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  • But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..."

For saints to "live" necessarily implies a conscious existence. And scripture tells us it is on thrones with Christ, where He is, and He ascended into heaven. All illustrated in Revelation chapter 20. While dead who "lived Not" implies a non-conscious existence, but only until the millennial period is over and there is a second resurrection (remember, First necessarily implies a Second). If living saints is a conscious existence, then "Souls" of the dead (not the dead, but souls of the dead) living and reigning with Christ on thrones is conscious existence with God in His Kingdom, where the context says He is seated on His throne.

Call me crazy, but I cannot fathom the "souls of the dead" living and reigning with Christ in the grave. For they live as Christ lives, and they're not in the grave. Yes, we all live and reign with Christ on earth if we are saved (having part in the First Resurrection), but people on earth is not the "context" nor the wording of Revelation chapter 20. Though I know it's widely taught. The context is souls of the believers who died contrasted with souls of the rest of the dead, and how one group of souls live with Christ the entire millennium, and the other souls do not live again UNTIL the second Resurrection. Proving these are not people on earth reigning, but as stated, souls of the dead reigning on thrones with Himn who ascended to the throne. Revelation 20 is a progression illustrating in symbology the coming of Christ, His work in binding Satan, its effects on certain souls,  and after the Millennium, the judgment of the unsaved souls brought back at the second Resurrection.

No matter how many scriptures are thrown out there, what is being said simply doesn't make sense. If they live the Millennium, they have to live somewhere. And in not one jot or tittle does God write that this speaks of "other places" that souls of the dead live and reign, and for 1000 years. There is nothing about where the souls "LIVE" and reign with Christ except on earth mirroring the heavenly, and afterward literally in that heaven. These two places we live and reign with Christ. On earth, in the body. In heaven, in the Spirit.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2008, 11:12:40 AM »
Quote from: Raybob
If it wasn't temporary, then they will never get to go to the new earth because they will be permanently in heaven.

The Saints will always be with Lord.  They will dwell in new heaven and new earth with God then that time comes.  

Revelation 21


1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Do you know who new Jerusalem is? Isn't she a Bride of Christ? Aren't she represents all of the Saints? They are the great multitude that God sealed.  They were in heaven! It might be me, but I believe the new heaven and a new earth will be one and the same, because this is where God dwell with His People!  No longer earth will be separated from heaven like the current heaven and earth. I can't say anymore than this because I have not seen or experienced it yet. I am sure it will be more than awesome for God's People.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Raybob

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2008, 08:29:30 PM »
I don't know about you but when I sleep, I'm not conscious, yet I'm present with the Lord.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These saints that Jesus brings with Him are not conscious if we believe what the bible tells us about them sleeping.  Yes, Moses and Elijah were awakened at the transfiguration but I would think they are resting just fine at this moment, sleeping like a baby.   

Dan 12:1-2  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  (2)  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

There just seems to be far to many scriptures that show saints sleeping until resurrection day to say that saints go to heaven immediately when they die. 
 
Raybob

Erik Diamond

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2008, 10:58:14 PM »
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I don't know about you but when I sleep, I'm not conscious, yet I'm present with the Lord.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These saints that Jesus brings with Him are not conscious if we believe what the bible tells us about them sleeping.  Yes, Moses and Elijah were awakened at the transfiguration but I would think they are resting just fine at this moment, sleeping like a baby.   

Raybob,

Where did you get these ideas from?   No where in Bible that even suggest that!  Now you claimed that if you die today, you will be present with the Lord...unconsciously, by rest peacefully in the your grave?!?  Do you know what present with the Lord means? It has to be conscious existence! Or else why are the Saints who died LIVED and REIGNED with Christ for thousand years?   

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Dan 12:1-2  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  (2)  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Of course, all people who have dead, will be resurrected on the Last Day.  It does not mean Saints were in their graves until that day, for their souls are ALREADY in Heaven with Christ.  What really happen will be the resurrection of their bodies.  When the last trump shall be sound, the dead in Christ shall rise first...

1st Thess

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The souls of the Saints will come down from heaven with Christ but will receive their bodies from the graves. Their bodies will also be changed just like our bodies will experience change if we are still alive on earth.  The dead in Christ rise first because they were already with Christ, and whoever that will still alive at that time, will be raptured. 

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Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

I suggest that you read Tony's explanation on this here. Also read his message after this one too.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2088.msg23009#msg23009

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Raybob

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2008, 12:01:29 AM »
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I don't know about you but when I sleep, I'm not conscious, yet I'm present with the Lord.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These saints that Jesus brings with Him are not conscious if we believe what the bible tells us about them sleeping.  Yes, Moses and Elijah were awakened at the transfiguration but I would think they are resting just fine at this moment, sleeping like a baby.   

Raybob,

Where did you get these ideas from?
Everything I quoted was from the bible.
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No where in Bible that even suggest that!  Now you claimed that if you die today, you will be present with the Lord...unconsciously, by rest peacefully in the your grave?!?
No, I claim that when I die, my next conscious moment will be with the Lord.  If that moment happens in heaven and not the new earth, I'll be amazed because scripture doesn't promise me that.
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  Do you know what present with the Lord means? It has to be conscious existence!
If that were true, then when I go to sleep tonight, I won't be present with the Lord. :'(
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Or else why are the Saints who died LIVED and REIGNED with Christ for thousand years?
Read Rev. 20:4 again.  The saints that have died are clearly NOT the only saints spoken of.  This passage encompasses every saint that ever lived.   
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Dan 12:1-2  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  (2)  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Of course, all people who have dead, will be resurrected on the Last Day.  It does not mean Saints were in their graves until that day, for their souls are ALREADY in Heaven with Christ.  What really happen will be the resurrection of their bodies.  When the last trump shall be sound, the dead in Christ shall rise first...
I don't claim that our souls will stay in a grave.  I claimed to not know their physical location because they are of the spirit world, not the physical one.  It couldn't be possible for our present physical bodies to be resurrected because when Jesus returns, the elements melt with fervent heat.  Dead bodies make up part of the elements of this present earth.  I know it's hard to understand because I was always taught that too, all my life.  I was taught saints go to heaven when we die and that the Christians alive when Jesus comes back will join them in heaven for 7 years and then we'd all come back after that for a 1000 year period before this earth melted.  Rev. 20 was supposed to be the proof text of the entire thing.  I really don't believe any of that anymore.

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

1Co 15:51
(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Raybob

Erik Diamond

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2008, 01:20:45 AM »
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No, I claim that when I die, my next conscious moment will be with the Lord.  If that moment happens in heaven and not the new earth, I'll be amazed because scripture doesn't promise me that.

Revelation 20:

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The thrones are in Heaven RIGHT NOW - - with Christ!  If a Saint die tonight, he will go right into heaven and reign with Christ, along with many Saints who have dead before us. These thrones already existed and established!  Or else, we do not have a kingdom!

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Do you know what present with the Lord means? It has to be conscious existence!

If that were true, then when I go to sleep tonight, I won't be present with the Lord

Huh?

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Read Rev. 20:4 again.  The saints that have died are clearly NOT the only saints spoken of.  This passage encompasses every saint that ever lived.
   

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

While it is true that not all Saints will experience physical death before Christ returns.  There will be some who will still be alive and remain to be raptured.  However, to think of this, if we are still alive during great tribulation period, we are already being 'killed' by the beast for the witness of Jesus and refuse to receive the mark of the beast.  We are still the kings and priest of the Kingdom of God.  What you do not understand is that if we dead PHYSICALLY before Christ returns,  we will not remain in grave unconsciously, but to be present with Christ immediately and continue reign with Him until the end.  We have SOULS that currently serve Christ on earth as well as in heaven 'IF" we dead!  Our current bodies does NOT matter. It will return to dust.

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I don't claim that our souls will stay in a grave.  I claimed to not know their physical location because they are of the spirit world, not the physical one.

God already told us where their souls will be... in HEAVEN!

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It couldn't be possible for our present physical bodies to be resurrected because when Jesus returns, the elements melt with fervent heat.  Dead bodies make up part of the elements of this present earth.

Didn't I say that they will receive a NEW glorified bodies. The bodies, whether its from graves or still alive, will experience transformation, designed for new  earth and new heaven. 
 
1st Corinthians:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The souls who have already dead and reign with Christ in heaven, will receive incorruptible new bodies at the last trump.  At the same time, Saints who are alive at  that moment will experience body transformation quickly before they even notice it.  Then they will be rapture into the air for all to see! 

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I was taught saints go to heaven when we die and that the Christians alive when Jesus comes back will join them in heaven for 7 years and then we'd all come back after that for a 1000 year period before this earth melted.

Obviously, they are wrong. And many of us support that neither. We reign with Christ RIGHT NOW whether we are alive or not.  Not 1,000 year period in the future. 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Raybob

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2008, 04:29:09 AM »
The thrones are in Heaven RIGHT NOW - - with Christ!  If a Saint die tonight, he will go right into heaven and reign with Christ, along with many Saints who have dead before us. These thrones already existed and established!  Or else, we do not have a kingdom!
Erik, you keep speaking of these thrones in heaven but not on earth as if the thrones are somehow limited to part of the church that has passed but not applying to the rest of the body on earth.
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Do you know what present with the Lord means? It has to be conscious existence!

If that were true, then when I go to sleep tonight, I won't be present with the Lord

Huh?
If I have to have conscious existence to be present with the Lord as you say, then I loose my presence with the Lord the minute I fall asleep into unconsciousness.  That makes absolutely no sense.

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God already told us where their souls will be... in HEAVEN!
Erik, I'd love to see a chapter and verse for that one! ???

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Didn't I say that they will receive a NEW glorified bodies.
No.
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The bodies, whether its from graves or still alive, will experience transformation, designed for new  earth and new heaven.
 
1st Corinthians:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This passage tells us most saints will sleep except the ones alive when Christ appears.  You're making my point.  If saints went to heaven when they died, then our blessed hope would be in our death when we've finished running our race, not at Christ's return.  Someone should have told Peter that his hope was in the wrong thing.

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Raybob

Tony Warren

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2008, 09:43:27 AM »
>>>
I don't know about you but when I sleep, I'm not conscious, yet I'm present with the Lord.
<<<

I suppose you're referring to my comment. Clearly the conscious existence that I referred to was in contrast to your theory of the mythical "soul sleep of saints" (a non-conscious existence) in the grave. ie., they're not sleep in heaven. That's a private theory, not something written in scripture. As far as your other careless and irrational comment, let me ask if you think God is a Liar? And I ask that advisedly. Because when God is talking (not Tony, but God) He says that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. So quite obviously to anyone considering scripture circumspectly God is not talking about any presence in sleep such as you are attempting to inject. The Presence God is talking about in heaven with Him, in this body you are Absent from that right now. You cannot wrest scripture to suit your own purposes, no matter how you try. Unambiguously, God says that to be present in the body, is to be absent from the Lord. This is the sense we're talking about, common sense! You were asked before if you understood what "absent" in this context means? And I'm not sure you do. Just as obviously (to everyone with no pre-conceived ideas) God is talking about presence with Him in heaven. A living conscious tangible presence, not His spiritual presence like we have now in the body. But physically being with Him. ...Obviously! Not soul sleep, but living conscious existence with Him.

Psalms 119:12-15
  • "Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
  • With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
  • I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
  • I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways."

God's word is not for manipulation, but meditation. To be present in the body, is to be "absent" from the real physical presence of God, who resides in heaven. Likewise, it is written, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. That's God's precept, not mine. It is clear to me Raybob, that you are not thinking clearly and the result is these incoherent or illogical comments you make that don't address the issues at hand. Yes, you can sleep and have the Lord's presence, but clearly (according to God), in the presence That He is talking about (in heaven), you are Not present with the Lord when in the body. Because the presence He is talking about is conscious tangible soul existence living with Him in Heaven. Not the mythical "soul sleep of saints" that you postulate about, but actual factual life in a conscious existence with God. Just why do you think God (not Tony) uses sleep as a synonym for death? ecause it is a non-conscious existence. Even the unsaved understand it to a degree.

"Sleep, those little slices of death; Oh how I loathe them" -Edgar Allan Poe

When the Bible talks about those who "sleep," Christ will bring with Him, clearly He's saying those who have died. David, Paul, Peter, John, etc. In this context, God uses sleep is a synonym for death. ie., those who have died, Christ will bring with Him. It's not saying they were actually asleep anymore than God saying John the Baptist was actually Elijah.


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1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
<<<

These saints who have died (from man's perspective), God will bring with Him. How? Because they are with Him. As they are absent from the body. When someone asks me about my grandmother, I say she's died (sleep).  But she is with the Lord. ie., she's not actually sleeping or actually dead anymore than Moses and Elijah were. She lives and reigns with Christ.


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>>>
These saints that Jesus brings with Him are not conscious if we believe what the bible tells us about them sleeping.
<<<

Oh yes, Absolutely we believe what the Bible says, and we are SURE that those who died in Jesus, (who sleep in Jesus), Christ will bring with Him. As I said, study the scriptures carefully. Sleep, is a synonym for death in these instances. The only people who do not live when they leave the body "in death" are the unsaved. But even they will live, at the second resurrection.

Ezekiel 37:3-4
  • "And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
  • Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD."

Using your hermeneutic, we would have to say this refers to actual bones coming to life. After all, that is what it appears to say. And we would be TOTALLY incorrect, because we have not carefully exegeted the passage to understand God's thoughts on the matter.


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Yes, Moses and Elijah were awakened at the transfiguration but I would think they are resting just fine at this moment, sleeping like a baby.   
<<<

Moses and Elijah were awakened from soul sleep? That's news to me, and not "Good News" but gossip or extrabiblical rumor. We can't just "MAKE UP" things and say this is what is. Where did you read that in the Bible? That's the point you keep missing. ...even though I know you won't answer that question. Because it’s not the "good news" of the Bible. It's not something you or anyone else read in the Bible. It's something you "READ INTO" the Bible. Obviously!  It seems to me you're attempting to add another chapter to what is written, filling in your thoughts for God's. You declared, "You would think" Moses and Elijah are sleeping like a baby. Problem is, rather than YOU thinking, You guessing and You supposing, better you follow what the scripture actually says. It actually says Moses and Elijah appeared in Glory and talked to Christ. No word of sleep, no word of waking up, no word of them being put back to sleep, no word of graves at all. And yet "you think" these two appeared in Glory, and then it was taken away from them and they were returned to the grave? I'm sorry but "me thinks" you think too much and try to make your thoughts God's thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9
  • "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
  • For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

We don't go by what we think, but by what God says. We don't try to lead scripture to agree with our own doctrines, we follow what doctrine scripture teaches. What God doesn't say is that Moses and Elijah were asleep, and were wakened, made an appearance in glory with Christ, had a chat about His upcoming work, and then were put back to sleep. The whole idea is like something out of a bad B Movie. These are all man's thoughts, not the word of God in any sense. Moses appeared with Christ in Glory, not wakened from a dirt nap and returned there afterward. What do you think scripture is there for?  It is there for us to follow. As contrasted with your assumptions, which contradict at every turn. .

Psalms 119:34-35
  • "Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
  • Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight."

Nevertheless, I can assure you, according to the testimony of God, the Paradise of God is in heaven, the altar and angels around it are in heaven, the souls of saints who died reign in heaven, while the rest of the dead do not, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord differently from when in the body or sleep, and Moses and Elijah appearing in glory are not being sent back to death/sleep. The whole idea is a fable, not the testimony of God. Not one testimony that says any of that.


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Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
<<<

This has already been addressed. But as a practical example, one could say, "Tony Warren did not go over to England and become its king, but Tony said Himself, The King said unto my King...." In other words, it is declaring David didn't fulfill the prophesy. No one ever ascended up into heaven to bring down from there the knowledge of divine mysteries, but Christ himself. That's all that is in view. Not that no one ever went to heaven. It's qualified. Scripture qualifies scripture, man cannot. You continue to ignore each and every passage that says unambiguously that men are in heaven with God.

2nd Corinthians 12:2-4
  • "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
  • And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
  • How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

A Man, caught up to the third heaven, the Paradise of God. Yet this is somehow (according to your theories) untrue, and there really was no man caught up to heaven because that would make your thoughts on the subject contradict God's thoughts. This is God speaking, not man. God allowed Paul to see this man caught up into heaven, just as others were. Paradise is no metaphor, its a place in the third heaven where God dwells. Your method of interpreting scripture seems to be to read it, and ignore anything else contradicts your view or that qualifies it. Would you take God's word that "As in Christ shall ALL be made alive" as referring to all mankind? I mean after all, all means all, and that's what it says. But you know as well as I do that scripture is qualified by other scripture. ...the scriptures you choose to ignore.


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There just seems to be far to many scriptures that show saints sleeping until resurrection day to say that saints go to heaven immediately when they die. 
 
Raybob
<<<

Wrong. There are "no" scriptures that show saints sleeping until resurrection day. Saints have already been Resurrected. And the Bible says so. ..just another passage for you to ignore:

Revelation 20:4-5
  • "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  • But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Now exactly where do "souls of the dead" live and reign where Christ is, while the "Rest of the dead" do not live?

"..it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. "

As for God's use of the word sleep, we all sleep. It's a synonym for death, as most already know. I'll die (sleep) and you'll die (sleep), and so will everyone else unless Christ returns before we do. But that in no way means that we're literally physically sleeping. It means we have died. And being absent from our body, which is what has really died, we will be present with the Lord "in life." Conscious existence, not soul sleep

Romans 5:8
  • "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Even Christ died, does that mean He is not present in heaven because we read that He died? Of course not. Who would make such an assumption. ...Exactly! Just because someone sleeps or dies, doesn't mean that they are literally sleeping and can't be in heaven. Indeed, those who died or sleep in Christ, Christ will bring with Him. Because they are with Him. Selah!

You say there are too many scriptures? Are you kidding me? Where? There are "ALL" scriptures that don't say saints go to sleep and don't have conscious existence. Meaning there are "NO" scriptures that say that. So why would anyone say that they do sleep and have no consciousness? And that scripture you quote doesn't say it either. You assume that the phrase "For David is not ascended into the heavens" can be re-interpreted to mean (Even though it doesn't say) that David is still in the grave or in some soul sleep. But assumption is the mother of errors. And interpretations belong to God. A "TRUE" and careful and studied exegesis of the phrase will show that it speaks of Christ, declaring David never fulfilled the prophesy of death and ascension to the throne, rather it spoke of Christ. Not that David could not go to heaven. The "operative" word here being, "careful."

Proverbs 26:16
  • "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."

We can't take everything the way we "think" it should be understood, instead of the way God meant it to be understood. Like the Judaizers reading scripture and taking it to mean a Messiah would come to rule in Israel and free God's chosen people from bondage. They believed that because they read the scriptures that said that. But they misunderstood the true meaning. Every word was true, yet they missed the whole point. Even though M3essiah did come to rule Israel and free the captives, they would call us a liar in claiming that's exactly what Jesus did. They would say we can't deny scripture says this, or that Christ fulfilled it. why? It's a matter of different hermeneutics and the Spirit to receive truth. I say that to say this. It’s not what scripture says, it's carefully understanding what scripture says. i.e., that a Messiah would come to Israel to rule and free the captives was absolutely true, but AS the way God meant it understood, not the way man thought it should be read and understood.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2008, 09:55:20 AM »
>>>
  Do you know what present with the Lord means? It has to be conscious existence!

If that were true, then when I go to sleep tonight, I won't be present with the Lord.
<<<

It means no such things. I ask again. Is God a Liar? Stop ignoring His truths. Absent means absent from the physical presence of God in heaven, not His spiritual presence on earth. Get that straight first.

2nd Corinthians 5:6-10
  • "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord:
  • (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
  • We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
  • Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."

Don't address us like these are our words, because that is dishonest.  God said we are absent from God while in the body. So don't give us this, "we can be present with the Lord while in the body," nonsense that contradicts His Words. Not the presence that God is talking about, which is the one we are talking about, which is His physical presence in heaven. Friend, your arms too short to box with God so take off the gloves.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2008, 10:03:44 AM »
>>>
Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
<<<

Again, sleep is a synonym for death. Compare scripture with scripture, the Bible is it's own dictionary, the bible is it's own interpreter


Quote
>>>
1Co 15:51
(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Raybob
<<<

We shall not all die (sleep), but we shall all be changed. Because when Christ returns, those saints alive on earth won't die like all those before them, they will simply "be changed" in an instant from human bodily form to spiritual form.

...NOPE! Nothing there about this mystical doctrine of soul sleep. Not one word! God is telling us that some won't die in the body, but be changed from one form to another.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2008, 10:24:35 AM »
>>>
God already told us where their souls will be... in HEAVEN!

Erik, I'd love to see a chapter and verse for that one!
<<<

You've seen it, it said it plain and clear, but you have chosen to ignore it. Revelation 20 says (not implies, but says) the souls of the saints who died for the word of God, went to live and reign with Christ a thousand years, but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Now you've seen chapter and verse of where the souls of the dead go. They go to be where Christ ascended and now reigns, and they are seated upon thrones. While the souls of the rest of the dead do not go there, and they do not live. i.e., they don't have conscious existence until afterward.

So you see it's not "really" a matter of showing scripture, it's a matter of "RECEIVING" scripture. A matter of "Keeping" the word of God that is witnessed to you. A matter of hiding it in our hearts that we might not sin against Him. Always has been a matter of receiving, and always will be as long as there is this earth, and men upon it. It's what separates the wheat from the chaff.


Quote
>>>
Obviously, they are wrong. And many of us support that neither. We reign with Christ RIGHT NOW whether we are alive or not.  Not 1,000 year period in the future. 
<<<

We may reign with Christ now and have the presence of Christ now, but we're not dead, and we are absent from the true bodily presence of God in heaven. God said that, not I. You choose to ignore certain facts in order to superficially promote this doctrine, but it won't wash. At least not with Bereans.
 
And by the way, as far as your hermeneutic. You cannot use one scripture to make another scripture untrue. One scripture "Qualifies" another scripture, but it doesn't make it null and void. Like the example I gave before about the passage, "ALL" being made alive in Christ. My scriptures don't make that untrue, they simply qualify it by showing that the "ALL" God has in view is all who are chosen. Not all people on the face of the earth. It qualifies it, not makes it untrue. You need to remember that. to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. The paradise of God is in the third heaven with God. Etc., etc., etc.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reformer

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2008, 02:06:31 PM »
 
1st Corinthians:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This passage tells us most saints will sleep except the ones alive when Christ appears. 

Raybob

When will you get it through your head that sleep means die. it doesn't mean actual sleeping. You've got to know that. maybe if Jesus tells you, you'll finally receive it.

 Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

They thought, just like you think. And they were wrong just like you. As Tony said, stop thinking and start reading and receiving what is written. The passage of 1st Corinthians tells us most saints will die except the ones alive when Christ appears.  Not literal sleep.




Theo

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Re: Where Did Old Testament Believers Go When They Died?
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2008, 09:30:01 PM »

I don't claim that our souls will stay in a grave.  I claimed to not know their physical location because they are of the spirit world, not the physical one. 


Spirit world? You are talking about mysticism, transhumanism or eastern spiritualism. The only spirit world the Bible knows about is heaven and hell. If you know of another one, you didn't get it from the bible. This doctrine of yours is not Christian. Where did this psychopannychism doctrine of yours come from anyway? Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the SDA teach this, is that where you picked it up? We Saints go to Heaven as soon as we die. At death our spirits are neither in the body, nor in this spirit world of yours. Is GOD going to make your spirit and soul lay in a flesh-and-blood body that's rotting in the ground? What about the bodies that are cremated, etc? No he's not. Neither are they sent to some spiritual prison to wait his return. It's not hard to understand if you just let yourself. And you will find it lining up with Scripture as you fit all of pieces together. Your soul lives on after death, and it has to be with God.

Mas confiamos, y más quisiéramos partir del cuerpo, y estar presentes al Señor. Meaning we are without fear, desiring to be free from the body, and to be with the Lord.

When we die, our bodies go back to dust in the graves and our breath goes back to God who breathed it into us. 

 


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