I don't know about you but when I sleep, I'm not conscious, yet I'm present with the Lord.
I suppose you're referring to my comment. Clearly the conscious existence that I referred to was in contrast to your theory of the mythical "soul sleep of saints" (a non-conscious existence) in the grave. ie., they're not sleep in heaven. That's a private theory, not something written in scripture. As far as your other careless and irrational comment, let me ask if you think God is a Liar? And I ask that advisedly. Because when God is talking (not Tony, but God) He says that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord
. So quite obviously
to anyone considering scripture circumspectly
God is not talking about any presence in sleep such as you are attempting to inject. The Presence God is talking about in heaven with Him, in this body you are Absent from that right now. You cannot wrest scripture to suit your own purposes, no matter how you try. Unambiguously, God says that to be present in the body, is to be absent
from the Lord. This
is the sense we're talking about, common sense! You were asked before if you understood what "absent" in this context means? And I'm not sure you do. Just as obviously
(to everyone with no pre-conceived ideas) God is talking about presence with Him in heaven
. A living conscious
tangible presence, not His spiritual presence like we have now in the body. But physically being with Him. ...Obviously! Not soul sleep, but living conscious existence with Him.Psalms 119:12-15
- "Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
- With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
- I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
- I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways."
God's word is not for manipulation, but meditation. To be present in the body, is to be "absent" from the real physical presence of God, who resides in heaven. Likewise, it is written, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. That's God's precept, not mine
. It is clear to me Raybob, that you are not thinking clearly and the result is these incoherent or illogical comments you make that don't address the issues at hand. Yes, you can sleep and have the Lord's presence, but clearly (according to God),
in the presence That He is talking about
(in heaven), you are Not
present with the Lord when in the body. Because the presence He is talking about is conscious tangible soul existence living with Him in Heaven. Not the mythical "soul sleep of saints" that you postulate about, but actual factual life in a conscious existence with God
. Just why do you think God (not Tony) uses sleep as a synonym for death? ecause it is a non-conscious existence. Even the unsaved understand it to a degree.
"Sleep, those little slices of death; Oh how I loathe them" -Edgar Allan Poe
When the Bible talks about those who "sleep," Christ will bring with Him, clearly He's saying those who have died. David, Paul, Peter, John, etc. In this context, God uses sleep is a synonym for death. ie., those who have died, Christ will bring with Him. It's not saying they were actually asleep anymore than God saying John the Baptist was actually Elijah.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
These saints who have died
(from man's perspective), God will bring with Him. How? Because they are
with Him. As they are absent from the body. When someone asks me about my grandmother, I say she's died (sleep). But she is with the Lord. ie., she's not actually sleeping or actually dead anymore than Moses and Elijah were. She lives and reigns with Christ.
These saints that Jesus brings with Him are not conscious if we believe what the bible tells us about them sleeping.
Oh yes, Absolutely
what the Bible says, and we are SURE that those who died in Jesus, (who sleep in Jesus), Christ will bring with Him. As I said, study the scriptures carefully. Sleep, is a synonym for death in these instances. The only people who do not live when they leave the body "in death" are the unsaved. But even they will live, at the second resurrection.Ezekiel 37:3-4
- "And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
- Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD."
Using your hermeneutic, we would have to say this refers to actual bones coming to life. After all, that is what it appears to say.
And we would be TOTALLY incorrect, because we have not carefully exegeted the passage to understand God's thoughts on the matter.
Yes, Moses and Elijah were awakened at the transfiguration but I would think they are resting just fine at this moment, sleeping like a baby.
Moses and Elijah were awakened from soul sleep? That's news to me, and not "Good News" but gossip or extrabiblical rumor. We can't just "MAKE UP" things and say this is what is. Where did you read that in the Bible? That's the point you keep missing. ...even though I know you won't answer that question. Because it’s not the "good news" of the Bible. It's not something you or anyone else read in the Bible. It's something you "READ INTO"
the Bible. Obviously! It seems to me you're attempting to add another chapter to what is written, filling in your thoughts for God's. You declared, "You would think"
Moses and Elijah are sleeping like a baby. Problem is, rather than YOU thinking, You guessing and You supposing, better you follow
what the scripture actually says.
says Moses and Elijah appeared in Glory and talked to Christ. No word of sleep, no word of waking up, no word of them being put back to sleep, no word of graves at all. And yet "you think" these two appeared in Glory, and then it was taken away from them and they were returned to the grave? I'm sorry but "me thinks" you think too much and try to make your thoughts God's thoughts.Isaiah 55:8-9
- "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
- For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
We don't go by what we think, but by what God says. We don't try to lead scripture to agree with our own doctrines, we follow what doctrine scripture teaches. What God doesn't say is that Moses and Elijah were asleep, and were wakened, made an appearance in glory with Christ, had a chat about His upcoming work, and then were put back to sleep. The whole idea is like something out of a bad B Movie. These are all man's thoughts, not the word of God in any sense. Moses appeared with Christ in Glory, not wakened from a dirt nap and returned there afterward. What do you think scripture is there for? It is there for us to follow. As contrasted with your assumptions, which contradict at every turn. .Psalms 119:34-35
- "Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
- Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight."
Nevertheless, I can assure you, according to the testimony of God, the Paradise of God is in heaven, the altar and angels around it are in heaven, the souls of saints who died reign in heaven, while the rest of the dead
do not, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord differently from when in the body or sleep, and Moses and Elijah appearing in glory are not being sent back to death/sleep. The whole idea is a fable, not the testimony
of God. Not one testimony that says any of that.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
This has already been addressed. But as a practical example, one could say, "Tony Warren did not go over to England and become its king, but Tony said Himself, The King said unto my King...." In other words, it is declaring David didn't fulfill the prophesy. No one ever ascended up into heaven to bring down from there the knowledge of divine mysteries, but Christ himself. That's all that is in view. Not that no one ever went to heaven. It's qualified. Scripture qualifies scripture, man cannot. You continue to ignore each and every passage that says unambiguously
that men are in heaven with God.2nd Corinthians 12:2-4
- "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
- And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
- How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
A Man, caught up to the third heaven, the Paradise of God. Yet this is somehow (according to your theories) untrue, and there really was no man caught up to heaven because that would make your thoughts on the subject contradict God's thoughts. This is God speaking, not man. God allowed Paul to see this man caught up into heaven, just as others were. Paradise is no metaphor, its a place in the third heaven where God dwells. Your method of interpreting scripture seems to be to read it, and ignore anything else contradicts your view or that qualifies it. Would you take God's word that "As in Christ shall ALL
be made alive" as referring to all mankind? I mean after all, all means all, and that's what it says. But you know as well as I do that scripture is qualified by other scripture. ...the scriptures you choose to ignore.
There just seems to be far to many scriptures that show saints sleeping until resurrection day to say that saints go to heaven immediately when they die.
Wrong. There are "no" scriptures that show saints sleeping until resurrection day. Saints have already been Resurrected. And the Bible says so. ..just another passage for you to ignore:Revelation 20:4-5
- "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
- But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Now exactly where do "souls of the dead" live and reign where Christ is, while the "Rest of the dead" do not live?
"..it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. "
As for God's use of the word sleep, we all sleep. It's a synonym for death, as most already know. I'll die (sleep) and you'll die (sleep), and so will everyone else unless Christ returns before we do. But that in no way
means that we're literally physically sleeping. It means we have died. And being absent from our body, which is what has really died, we will be present with the Lord "in life." Conscious existence, not soul sleepRomans 5:8
- "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Even Christ died, does that mean He is not present in heaven because we read that He died? Of course not. Who would make such an assumption. ...Exactly! Just because someone sleeps or dies, doesn't mean that they are literally sleeping and can't be in heaven. Indeed, those who died or sleep in Christ, Christ will bring with Him.
Because they are with Him. Selah!
You say there are too many scriptures? Are you kidding me? Where? There are "ALL" scriptures that don't say
saints go to sleep and don't have conscious existence. Meaning there are "NO" scriptures that say
that. So why would anyone say that they do sleep and have no consciousness? And that scripture you quote doesn't say it either. You assume
that the phrase "For David is not ascended into the heavens" can be re-interpreted to mean
(Even though it doesn't say) that David is still in the grave or in some soul sleep. But assumption is the mother of errors
. And interpretations belong to God. A "TRUE" and careful
and studied exegesis of the phrase will show that it speaks of Christ, declaring David never fulfilled the prophesy of death and ascension to the throne, rather it spoke of Christ. Not that David could not go to heaven. The "operative" word here being, "careful."Proverbs 26:16
- "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."
We can't take everything the way we "think" it should be understood, instead of the way God meant it to be understood. Like the Judaizers reading scripture and taking it to mean a Messiah would come to rule in Israel and free God's chosen people from bondage. They believed that because they read the scriptures that said that. But they misunderstood the true meaning. Every word was true, yet they missed the whole point. Even though M3essiah did come to rule Israel and free the captives, they would call us a liar in claiming that's exactly what Jesus did. They would say we can't deny scripture says this, or that Christ fulfilled it. why? It's a matter of different hermeneutics and the Spirit to receive truth. I say that to say this. It’s not what scripture says, it's carefully understanding what scripture says. i.e., that a Messiah would come to Israel to rule and free the captives was absolutely true,
but AS the way God meant it understood, not the way man thought it should be read and understood. nosce te ipsum
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"