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Author Topic: Absent from the body, present with the Lord  (Read 1325 times)

judykanova

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Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« on: June 29, 2008, 09:09:00 AM »
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this verse pertain to OT saints BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, or only to those who died after the resurrection of Christ, or both?

This question is somewhat related to the “ Re:  Is 2 Thess 2:3 about the Rapture?” thread, in which this passage came under discussion:

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


My question has a different focus which is why I started a different thread.  I ask because I think it possible these OT saints , (who by faith looked “afar off” to Christ), had to await the actual victory of the cross before they “received the promises”, … including the promise of “absent from the body… present with the Lord”.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
… etc.
Heb 11:38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


I know that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.  Thus OT saints were chosen and received the GRACE of salvation as does anyone who is saved.  Yet their faith was not “realized” until the coming of Christ.  Among other things, this event of OT saints being resurrection and coming into (earthly) Jerusalem to be seen of many, underscores the fact that their salvation is as intimately tied to Christ, the cross and Grace, as is and the salvation of everyone.

The physical resurrection of these OT saints also underscores Christ’s victory over “hell and death”…

Rev 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

“Hell”  in this sense seems to mean separation from God.  I know that Christ’s resurrection gave victory over the “second death”  -  eternal damnation.  But could it have also changed what occurs at the point of death, whereby we no longer experience a period of
separation/sleep, but go directly into the presence of God in heaven?

As symbolized by the veil (separating the outer sancuary from the Holy of Holies) being rent from top to bottom, we now have immediate and direct access to God,  while our High Priest sits at His right hand.  But can the same be said of those who died before Christ's death ans resurrection?

Please also consider this passage which gives an account of what occured during those 3 days that Christ was in the tomb..

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


What prison?  The prison of separation.  The prison/hell  where the OT  saints were, and where Christ went to preach, and to set them free.
(Whether some then went directly to heaven or some were among those physically resurrected and seen coming out of the grave I do not know, and as Tony said,  it doesn’t really matter beyond what is being taught spiritually).

What about this passage?

1Co 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. [/b]
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


Can the phrase “them that slept”  be understood in both the literal and spiritual sense to encompass those OT saints who literally slept in death, awaiting Christ’s coming?

If this is so, it would help explains why Satan and the Archangel Michael (Christ) fought over the dead body of Moses.   Moses was a special prophet of God in many ways, including the fact that he would serve God's purpose beyond his physical death, by ministering to Christ the night before His crucifixion on the mountain of transfiguration, along with Elijah (another special OT prophet who was raptured while still alive).

Luk 9:28  And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29  And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32  But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33  And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.


By contrast, references to death in the OT appears to always be in terms of sleeping or separation, (albeit temporary until Christ’s resurrection with respects to those saved, or until  judgment day with respect to the unsaved.

This is something I've often wondered about, and I say none of these things dogmatically.  It is not essential although it may further add to our understanding of what Christ accomplished on the cross.

The Bible is a most fascinating book that has endless depths we can never fully explore.   I could easily side-track to consider in more depth those special prophets – like Moses, Elijah, Enoch, etc. who experienced death in a most unique manner.  But staying on topic, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts regarding these Scriptures, comments and the question ….

2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this verse pertain to OT saints BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, or only to those who died after the resurrection of Christ, or both?

judy
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Tony Warren

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Re: Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2008, 12:29:09 PM »
>>>
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this verse pertain to OT saints BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, or only to those who died after the resurrection of Christ, or both?
<<<

Yes but it doesn't say that one can only be present with the Lord "after" the resurrection, so we would have to read that into the passage in order to come to that conclusion, correct? It makes a blanket statement, WE ARE CONFIDENT "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord," and "to be present with the Lord, is to be absent from the body." There is no qualifier there. So why would we want to add one? Moses at the transfiguration was absent from the Body, and present with the Lord, and this was before Christ died and rose from the dead. So it all seems to fit consistently throughout scripture to me.


Quote
>>>
I ask because I think it possible these OT saints , (who by faith looked ôafar offö to Christ), had to await the actual victory of the cross before they ôreceived the promisesö,

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
à etc.
<<<

Again, I think you read too much into this passage. When it says, not "having received the promises, but having seen them afar off," it is talking about Messiah's coming, not the presence of God. Abel, Noah, Abraham, and Sarah all died "looking forward" to the coming of Messiah, as promised. They looked forward believing He should come, and expecting their salvation is through Him. In other words, that He hadn't come yet and hadn't yet suffered for sins, did not prevent them from receiving righteousness and Grace through Christ retroactively. i.e., their sins were already forgiven "as if" Christ had already gone to the cross "for them". There was no need to wait for His righteousness upon them, it was already upon them "by" the work of the cross. The fact that they believed meant that they could enter into Christ's rest, because in principle He was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Just a few Chapters before Hebrews 11, God comments on this.

Hebrews 4:2-3
  • "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    • For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world[/i]."
    The works were in essence "done," finished, from before the world. That in principle, His work on the cross was retroactive, allowing all the Old Testament saints to already be righteous, already have favor, already be blessed and perfect, already by faith and belief enter into His (Christ's) rest, wherein their own works were already ended. By Grace they "ALREADY" were saved and made holy by the death and resurrection of Christ. So what did they need to wait for and why? What would make us think they received all through Christ retroactively, "except" to be present with God?

    Now I'm not saying I know everything perfectly, or that what you say is not possible. You could be right, and I may have missed something. I'm just saying, I haven't read anything in scripture that unquestionably supports that. And I would need to do that because my hermeneutic requires solid biblical justification.


    Quote
    >>>
    I know that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.  Thus OT saints were chosen and received the GRACE of salvation as does anyone who is saved.
    <<<

    If they RECEIVED the grace of salvation "as does anyone who is saved" (as you say), then what indeed did they lack? Nothing! They lacked nothing! Specifically because for them, in essence, Christ was slain from before the foundation of the world. The Lord was their Shepherd, they did not want for anything.


    Quote
    >>>
    ...Yet their faith was not ôrealizedö until the coming of Christ.
    <<<

    That's a supposition, not something from the Bible. Scripture nowhere says man's faith is not "realized" until the coming of Christ. On the contrary, it is indeed through the "realized" faith of Christ that they all persevered, could walk into the mouth of lions without fear, went to the stakes and were burned in the fire. Weren't they put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit? Then what "exactly" does that mean? Selah! It was specifically because they had "realized" faith. Retroactively!

    Romans 4:11-13
    • "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    • And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    • For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith[/i]."
    This was real faith. It wasn't pretend faith, or half-faith, or part faith, it was realized faith. A Faith that could only come by the death and resurrection of Christ. And Abraham had it "BEFORE" he even received the seal of circumcision. Because the efficacy was already there.


    So I believe that it is in error to say their faith was not "realized" until the coming of Christ.


    Quote
    >>>
    The physical resurrection of these OT saints also underscores ChristÆs victory over ôhell and deathöà
    <<<


    The physical resurrection of any saints underscores Christ’s victory over hell and death, including the raising of Lazarus by Christ. Lazarus body was decaying and stank, but Christ reconstituted it and gave Lazarus back his life, underscoring again how Christ was the Resurrection and the life. The picture was to illustrate that though someone be dead, yet in Christ they could live. How? Were The Old Testament saints living in the stinking rotting corpses in the ground? No, I believe they were messengers living with God, because all those who believe never really die. Or to put it another way, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


    Quote
    >>>
    ôHellö  in this sense seems to mean separation from God.  I know that ChristÆs resurrection gave victory over the ôsecond deathö  -  eternal damnation.  But could it have also changed what occurs at the point of death, whereby we no longer experience a period of separation/sleep, but go directly into the presence of God in heaven?
    <<<

    That's the part I cannot understand why you are so insistent upon. Who said Old testament saints, made righteous in the blood of Christ, were separated from God for a period of years? I'm trying to stick to the Bible alone, so what passage says or implies old Testament Saints "had" to experience a period of waiting, of separation from God after death, even though they were saved? I don't believe there are any. They that wait upon the Lord do not do so in the grave, they mount up with eagle's wings and even when killed, they never die. Why? Because they were already saved, resurrected in Christ's work which was "finished" in principle, before the world began. If that be true, wherein is this separation from God after death? ..God Forbid!

    As I say, I know I'm not perfect, but I haven't read anything in scripture that supports that supposition. And I would need to do that. I just do not believe that the righteous experience Hell (a separation from God, as you say) and so saints like Abel suffered separated without God for a period thousands of years until Christ came. It just doesn't add up nor agree consistently with scripture.


    Quote
    >>>
    As symbolized by the veil (separating the outer sancuary from the Holy of Holies) being rent from top to bottom, we now have immediate and direct access to God,
    <<<

    No, that symbolized that the "true" way to the presence of God was only through the flesh of Christ. This in no way pertains to Old Testament saints not having access to God, because He wasn't crucified yet. It illustrated the living way (Christ), which was new to them because they believed in the Physical temple, veil and Holy place. But it was the spiritual that these physical looked forward to.

    Hebrews 10:18-20
    • "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
      • Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
      • By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;[/i]"
      I think what many fail to realize (though it is often agreed to intellectually), is that all the Old covenant Saints had remission of sins the EXACT same way as we, through the living veil, which is Christ’s flesh. By the faith of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. What then did they need to wait for.


      Quote
      >>>
      Please also consider this passage which gives an account of what occurred during those 3 days that Christ was in the tomb..

      Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
      Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
      Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

      1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
      1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

      What prison?  The prison of separation.  The prison/hell  where the OT  saints were, and where Christ went to preach, and to set them free.
      <<<

      No, the prison house of Satan, wherein he holds all captive who are not saved.


          What Does It mean Christ Preached to the Spirits in Prison?

          http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/spiritsinprison.html

      The Old Testament saints were freed from that prison by "The Faith of Christ," looking forward to the shed blood of Christ. Even as we are freed from that prison by "The Faith of Christ," looking backward to the shed blood of Christ. The ONLY difference between us and them is DIRECTION.



      Quote
      >>>
      What about this passage?

      1Co 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
      1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

      Can the phrase ôthem that sleptö be understood in both the literal and spiritual sense to encompass those OT saints who literally slept in death, awaiting ChristÆs coming?
      <<<

      Certainly not. Since people were raised literally/physically from the dead before Christ was. As I said before, Lazarus for one example. The "firstfruits of them that slept," or "the firstborn from the dead," refers to the spiritual resurrection from the dead. He had to be the FIRST RESURRECTION, have preeminence in this, that everyone else be raised up in "that" first resurrection. The same picture of how the "bodies of" the saints rose up from the grave after His first resurrection. To signify that the power of their previous salvation, was only through His First resurrection.


      Quote
      >>>
      If this is so, it would help explains why Satan and the Archangel Michael (Christ) fought over the dead body of Moses.   
      <<<

      Disagree! What it explains is how Christ, contending with Satan that he couldn't have the body of Moses, because they were also raised up the "VERY SAME WAY as the New Covenant saints. By faith, through the work of the death of Christ. Clearly, the Efficacy of Christ's work reaches all the way back to Abel. It didn't just take effect at the cross. thus, satan couldn't have the body of Moses, the law couldn't accuse him, it was all done away with in Christ.



      Quote
      >>>
      Moses was a special prophet of God in many ways, including the fact that he would serve God's purpose beyond his physical death, by ministering to Christ the night before His crucifixion on the mountain of transfiguration, along with Elijah (another special OT prophet who was raptured while still alive).
      <<<

      In my view, you just ruined your own argument. For we cannot have different rules of resurrection for different Old Covenant saints. If Moses (an Old Testament Saint) and Elijah (an Old Testament Saint) appeared in glory, and were talking to Christ about His death that would occur at Jerusalem (Before His resurrection), then it is unbiblical/contradictory to declare that Old Covenant saints were required to wait in the grave, separated from God, until after Christ was resurrected. we can't give special dispensation to "big" saints just because they were used miraculously. They were saved the same way as everyone else. A law that Old Covenant Saints must wait, separated from God (for some reason) until after Christ dies and is raised again, cannot be abrogated in this case because Moses shows up in Glorified form, contradicting the theory. On the contrary, the very fact that these Old covenant Saints showed up speaking to Christ in glorified form PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt that any theory that Old Covenant Saints could not appear in glory with God until after His resurrection is fatally flawed. It not only could happen, it did happen. Moses and Elijah signifies The law and the Prophets, representing the whole Old Covenant Kingdom body before John came to herald or announce the coming of Christ. Selah! Ergo, the law and the prophets were until John, and since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it (Luke 16:16). These two saints represented the Old covenant body.

      Luke 9:29-31
      • "And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
      • And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Elijah)
      • Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem[/i]."
      If nothing else, it proves "unambiguously" that what I have said is true. That there need not be any separation from God, or wait in the grave, or soul sleep, or whatever other name it might go by, of saints from the Old covenant side of the cross, before Christ's resurrection. For these are Old Covenant saints who obviously are not in the grave, and it is before Christ's resurrection. i.e., from the bible, there simply is no such "remain in the grave" requirement or precept.


      Quote
      >>>
      By contrast, references to death in the OT appears to always be in terms of sleeping or separation, (albeit temporary until ChristÆs resurrection with respects to those saved, or until  judgment day with respect to the unsaved.
      <<<

      That's because sleeping in scripture is synonymous with death in many instances. But I don't read anywhere where the death of saints is referred to, or implied to be a separation from God. Sounds more like Hell to me. But I'm open to any scriptures you might have that would illustrate Old Covenant believers remaining separated from God in the grave. If you cannot supply any, we would have to put that in the category of extrabiblical supposition. And not something to build a doctrine on.


      Quote
      >>>
      I say none of these things dogmatically.  This is something I've often wondered about.  It is not essential although it may further add to our understanding of what Christ accomplished on the cross.
      <<<

      Agreed, and further adding to our understanding of what Christ accomplished through His work on the cross I think also shows that it's effects were retroactive in all aspects. i.e., they were saved, they were made righteous, and even though the Spirit of Christ was poured out at Pentecost, Old covenant saints had that very same spirit of Christ also. Because by realized faith they looked forward to Christ. No?

      I do not believe there was anything lacking that Christ accomplished at the cross. The Resurrected Christ was with them just as He is with us, and testified to them, as spirits in prison, their need to be set free.

      1st Peter 1:10-11
      • "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
      • Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow[/i]."
      Selah! Christ was "in them" because of the power of the cross. When we understand what that all means, we understand they are no different from us in being quickened from the dead. They were quickened of the spirit, just like we were. Which means that though they are dead, yet they lived. Not separated from God, but in communion with Him. They had to wait for nothing in the grave separated from God. At least I do not read of this waiting. Indeed, they were reconciled to God by Christ's Spirit. And  the Spirit of Christ which was in them testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


      Quote
      >>>
      The Bible is a most fascinating book that has endless depth we can never fully explore.   I could easily side-track to consider in more depth those special prophets û like Moses, Elijah, Enoch, etc. who experienced death in a most unique manner.  But staying on topic, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts regarding the above and the question à.
      <<<

      Amen. But also a much neglected book (2nd Kings 22:8-13) for most of the Church. However, I would add that even though Moses, Elijah, Enoch, etc., were used of God specially, they do not abrogate or annul His laws concerning resurrection, going to glory, or separation from God. They all had human bodies, they all were translated, and they all went to heaven to be with the Lord. No separation or soul sleep was required. Not because they had special dispensation, but because it was never required. I have never read of any such requirement. I have heard it from the pulpits, I have read it in theological magazines, I have heard Christians repeat it, but I have never read it from scripture.
       
       
      Quote
      >>>
      2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

      Does this verse pertain to OT saints BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, or only to those who died after the resurrection of Christ, or both?

      judy
      <<<

      To answer that Biblically we would have to ask, what specific scriptures say only New Covenant saints go directly to be with the Lord, ..or what scriptures say that Old covenant saints are separated from God and remain in the grave for a period, ..or what scriptures say 2nd Corinthians 5:8 only applies to new covenant saints, etc., etc.

      ...to this point, I would have to say none!  ...unless and until I am given any. For only the word of God is our authority.

      nosce te ipsum"
       
      Peace,
      Tony Warren
      "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Pamela

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Re: Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2008, 04:25:33 PM »
 
Thank you Judy for bringing this subject up, as I was wondering about some of these points also.  And thank you Tony for some wonderful reflections!

>>>
Quote
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this verse pertain to OT saints BEFORE the resurrection of Christ, or only to those who died after the resurrection of Christ, or both?

judy


Tony said:
Quote
To answer that Biblically we would have to ask, what specific scriptures say only New Covenant saints go directly to be with the Lord, ..or what scriptures say that Old covenant saints are separated from God and remain in the grave for a period, ..or what scriptures say 2nd Corinthians 5:8 only applies to new covenant saints, etc., etc
...to this point, I would have to say none!  ...unless and until I am given any. For only the word of God is our authority.

I found this in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Pam

Diane Moody

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Re: Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2008, 07:29:09 PM »

I found this in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Pam

 I was thinking about that scripture also. It does seem to indicate that the spirits of old testament saints went upward into heaven, not downward into the grave. And it also contrasts man with beast. Maybe there is some spiritual truth to that also. That unsaved man goes to the grave.

 2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.




Doug Johnson

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Re: Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2008, 08:38:43 PM »
Mr Warren,
  Your mouth isn't a prayer book. We can also turn the tables on you and ask you the same question. Where does scripture say Old Testament saints never die? What you read about Christ saying they never die was from the New Testament. You aren't so smart. Why don't you answer the question. Where is the scripture that says that about Old Testament saints sir?

 I see you're online, so don't ignore me.


Tony Warren

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Re: Absent from the body, present with the Lord
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2008, 09:11:19 PM »
>>>
Mr Warren,
  Your mouth isn't a prayer book. We can also turn the tables on you and ask you the same question. Where does scripture say Old Testament saints never die? What you read about Christ saying they never die was from the New Testament. You aren't so smart. Why don't you answer the question. Where is the scripture that says that about Old Testament saints sir?

I see you're online, so don't ignore me.
<<<

I wouldn't dream of it. ...  :P

Its a fair question. I'm not offended by it. Even though my posts are probably too long already. I try not to ask anyone to do something that I can't do myself. But I do reiterate, the Bible has to be the authority, not what we might have heard, have learned, have supposed, have believed or think sounds logical. We have to get our doctrines from scripture. So in conjunction with that, I ask that you let the scriptures be your authority, and not the Roman Catholic Church:

Ezekiel 18:21-23
  • "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    • All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
    • Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?[/i]"
    Is that Old Covenant enough for you? He shall not die! Obviously, God is talking about spiritual death. i.e., "though he were dead physically, yet shall he live. You see, Biblical principles are for saints (err, Christians), not for Old Covenant saints versus New Covenant Sints. But all saints. All are saved the same way, all have access to God the same way. All live, though they are dead, by the same living way.

    nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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