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Author Topic: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8  (Read 6388 times)

Illuminated

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2016, 06:00:55 AM »
I do not believe that Daniel 8:7-8 should be understood in time sequence.  The keyword is "Therefore" in verse 8. God is just showing us who HeGoat is, the one who is responsible for breaking the power of old testament congregation in 32AD and the power of New Testament congregation during the "last end of the indignation."

Erik,

     If the higher horn that came up last represents the New Testament congregation, could you please explain how this horn can be broken before the New Testament congregation begins?  I know from your previous posts that this is a concern that you once had.  Now it seems that you completely disregard it.  Why?  You say that there is no time sequence involved here, but I think that this is a serious error.  It is clearly apparent from the context of Daniel chapters 8 and 11 (and all of the other visions as well) that the passage of time is an important element here.

Daniel 8
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel 11
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.


The time element is apparent all the way throughout these passages.  How can you say there is no time sequence?  The ram is stamped upon and his horns broken before the goat's horn is broken and divided to the four winds.  The division to the four winds signifies the beginning of the New Testament period, so how can the New Testament congregation be broken before this even begins?

I am curious to know your thoughts.

William
"Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2016, 11:59:45 PM »
Quote from: Illuminated
If the higher horn that came up last represents the New Testament congregation, could you please explain how this horn can be broken before the New Testament congregation begins?  I know from your previous posts that this is a concern that you once had.  Now it seems that you completely disregard it.  Why?  You say that there is no time sequence involved here, but I think that this is a serious error. 

Hello Illuminated. The reason why I did not believe that there is a time sequence between verse 7 and 8 when we read:

Dan 8:3-8 KJV
[3]  Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
[4]  I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
[5]  And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
[6]  And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
[7]  And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
[8]  Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The vision of Ram and He-Goat actually transcends time just like the woman of Revelation 12 and the whore of Revelation 17-18.  God gave a vision to Daniel about the Ram being His Kingdom with two horns representing the power of old and new testament congregations, both representing His kingdom.  Because of their unfaithfulness, God introduced he goat as Satan and his Kingdom, to break Ram's horns as a judgment.

The first horn (power) of Old Israel was destroyed during Christís days prior to the Cross.   

Rev 12:1-4 KJV
[1]  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2]  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3]  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4]  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The second horn (power) of the New Testament Church, is being destroyed when Satan is loosened from bottomless pit as Little Horn prior to Second Coming with daily sacrifice ended and abomination of desolation be set up:     

Dan 8:13-14 KJV
[13]  Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14]  And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Rev 11:1-2 KJV
[1]  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2]  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In Godís eyes, Satan has trampled Godís congregation down twice at different time.  NOT at the same time prior to the Cross as I thought.  I noticed that God said, ďThereforeĒ in verse 8. Not ďthen,Ē as in time sequence. God said ďthereforeĒ because He DESCRIBE pictorially on what he goat will do after the Cross when his power was broken, after God explained that he is the one who broke the horns of Rams at different times.

Dan 8:8-12 KJV
[8] Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
[9]  And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
[10]  And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11]  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12]  And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The little horn represents Satanís power for a little season after a millennial kingdom. After the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished.  After the sealing of Elect by God is finished.  Notice that it is not by Satan's own power.  He was given the power by the unfaithful of the congregation, the daughter of the South, who happens to be Babylon the Great.  They are the one who have agreed to power and strength to the Satan and in return, they receive power as kings (rulers) of God's kingdom. This is how they joined forces to break the SECOND horn of the Ram prior to Second Coming. 

Dan 11:5-6 KJV
[5]  And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
[6]  And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Satan and the unfaithful are working together with one mind which is to silence the testimony of Two Witnesses and for not love of the Truth.

Rev 17:12-13 KJV
[12]  And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13]  These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:16-18 KJV
[16]  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17]  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18]  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Dan 2:40-43 KJV
[40]  And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41]  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42]  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43]  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I have more to share but enough for now.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

aquatic

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 04:13:30 PM »
There are both good reasons the higher horn could be Christ or the New Testament Church. Remember, Christ said that we are one with Him and the Father. Its hard to distinguish between them, because they both are rejected, silenced, persecuted, killed, and resurrected.

Difficult verses.

Illuminated

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2016, 01:09:24 AM »

Erik,
     I am sorry to take so long to get back to this, but I wanted to take some time to carefully consider what you are saying before I replied.  There was a time that I also believed that the horns of the ram represented the Old and New Testament congregations, and I would have completely agreed with everything that you are saying.   So I understand where you are coming from with this, but with continued studying, I have begun to see some inconsistencies in this interpretation.  As I see it, there are five major flaws with what you have described:

1.  The idea that the ram and goat transcend time.
2.  The idea that the horns of the ram are broken at two different times.
3.  Conflating prophecies concerning the first and second coming of Christ so that they all point to the second coming.
4.  Not making a distinction between the horns of these animals and the animals themselves.
5.  Not properly harmonizing all of the dreams and visions in the book of Daniel Ė This may be the most important point of all, especially as it takes into account the giving of the law, the role that the law played in the lives of Godís elect, the power that the law held over us bringing upon us Godís curse, the power that the law gave to Satan in using it to accuse us before God, and the coming of Christ to free us for all eternity from Satan and the curse of the law.

I will address each of these points individually:

1.  Do the ram and goat transcend time?

The vision of Ram and He-Goat actually transcends time just like the woman of Revelation 12 and the whore of Revelation 17-18.  God gave a vision to Daniel about the Ram being His Kingdom with two horns representing the power of old and new testament congregations, both representing His kingdom.  Because of their unfaithfulness, God introduced he goat as Satan and his Kingdom, to break Ram's horns as a judgment.

     I would agree with you that the woman of Revelation 12 transcends time, depicting the Messiah coming forth from the Old Testament congregation, freeing her from the warfare in the kingdom, and protecting her from the dragon as the kingdom transitions from the Old Testament to the New.  I would also agree that the whore of Revelation 17 -18 transcends time, depicting the unfaithful of Godís congregation that have always been allied with the beast.  I do not agree that the ram and goat transcend time.  I think it would be more appropriate to say that the indignation transcends time, and this is the point that I was trying to highlight in my previous posts.

Genesis 3
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 4
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


     The indignation (meaning the resentment, anger, and enmity that exist between the elect and the reprobate within Godís congregation) began with Cain and Abel and it will not end until God brings vengeance upon the reprobate that kill His two witnesses.  The killing of the two witnesses and Godís vengeance that follows is what is referred to as the last end of the indignation in Daniel 8:19.  Read the passage carefully.  The last end of the indignation does not refer to the ram and goat. It refers to the king of fierce countenance (the little horn) scattering the power of the mighty and the holy people.  Remember, this little horn comes forth from one of the four horns which in turn came forth from the great horn of the goat, which you agree was broken at the cross.  What we are seeing here is a symbolic depiction of the indignation throughout all of history with the ram and goat depicting the indignation prior to the cross and the king of the north and king of the south (Daniel 11) depicting the indignation after the cross.

Daniel 8
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


There is an important distinction here that canít be ignored.  The indignation is still in view after the cross, but the ram and the goat are not.  God uses different symbolism to describe the indignation during the New Testament period.  You must make this distinction between what is happening during the time before the cross and the time after the cross.  This leads to my second point.

2.  Are the ramís two horns broken at two different times?

In Godís eyes, Satan has trampled Godís congregation down twice at different time.  NOT at the same time prior to the Cross as I thought.  I noticed that God said, ďThereforeĒ in verse 8. Not ďthen,Ē as in time sequence. God said ďthereforeĒ because He DESCRIBE pictorially on what he goat will do after the Cross when his power was broken, after God explained that he is the one who broke the horns of Rams at different times.

Your statements here just donít agree with what is actually written upon the pages of scripture.

Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


     The context here makes it clear that both of the ramís horns are broken as it is cast down to the ground and stamped upon by the goat, prior to the goatís great horn being broken.  There is nothing to indicate that the ram is cast down and stamped upon with one horn being broken, then getting back up again and being cast down and stamped upon again at a later time, with the other horn being broken.  It just doesnít say that, and there is no way that this can be implied from what is actually written.
     You are correct that Satan tramples the congregation down twice at different times, and you have shown the scriptures from both Daniel and Revelation that demonstrate that fact.  The problem is that you have made the horns of the ram the two different congregations that are stamped upon at two different times, and this interpretation simply does not fit.  Again, the context is of both horns of the ram being broken before the goatís great horn is broken, not one ramís horn being broken, then the goatís horn being broken, then the other ramís horn being broken 2000 years later.  This is the extremely important point that you need to understand:

The Old and New Testament congregations are indeed stamped upon twice, more than 2000 years apart; however, the horns of the ram are both broken prior to the goatís horn being broken (not one broken, then the other broken 2000 years later).  Therefore, the two horns of the ram canít be the Old and New Testament congregations.

This brings us to the third point.

3.  Do not conflate prophecies that refer to the first and second coming of Christ.

The first horn (power) of Old Israel was destroyed during Christís days prior to the Cross.   

The second horn (power) of the New Testament Church, is being destroyed when Satan is loosened from bottomless pit as Little Horn prior to Second Coming with daily sacrifice ended and abomination of desolation be set up:

     

     There are very strong parallels between what is happening in Godís congregation at both the first and second coming of Christ, but we have to keep in mind that these are two distinct and separate events in history, both of which are prophesied about in scripture using very similar language.  It is imperative to pay careful attention to the context in which each of these events are described so that we do not confuse one for the other.
     There just arenít very many prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ in the Old Testament.  Most Old Testament prophecies concerning the fall of Godís congregation are referring to what happens within the nation of Israel at Christís first coming.  There are a couple of verses in Deuteronomy and Isaiah that reference the congregation at Christís second coming, and two full chapters in Ezekiel.  Most Old Testament references to the second coming are found in Daniel, but even in this book, there is much to be said about the first coming, and we must be sure to distinguish the two events.  As I describe in part 2 above, this is the mistake that you have made here.
     The Old Testament congregation is stamped upon at Christís first coming.  The New Testament congregation is stamped upon at Christís second coming.  The first horn of the ram and the second horn of the ram are both broken at Christís first coming.  Neither horn has anything to do with the second coming.  Both horns belong to the ram which is cast down to the ground and stamped upon at Christís first coming.  The ram is not stamped upon at Christís second coming. God does use similar language to describe what happens to His congregation at the second coming, but He is not talking about the ram.

Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them
.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


     The passages above describe what will happen within Godís congregation at the second coming of Christ, but they have nothing to do with the ram specifically.  Although God uses the language of the stars being cast to the ground to describe both the Old Testament and New Testament congregations being overcome, the language of the ramís horns being broken is only mentioned in reference to the Old Testament congregation (before the goatís horn is broken and replaced by four others).  We must be careful not to conflate these two different symbols that are describing two different time periods.  The breaking of the ramís horns by the goat is distinct from the king of fierce countenance destroying the mighty and the holy people.  This brings me to the fourth point.

4.  Should we make a distinction between the ram itself and the horns of the ram?

     I believe that we should, but I donít see that you have made any such distinction.  You have referred to the ďfirst horn (power) of Old IsraelĒ and the ďsecond horn (power) of New Testament ChurchĒ, but what does that mean?  What exactly is the power of Old Israel and the power of the New Testament Church, and how does this power relate to the ram?  You need to be more specific.  If the horns represent the Old and New Testament congregations, then what does the ram represent?  There is a distinction between the two.  In the same way that Godís Church is described as a body, with Christ being the head, distinct from those that are under His authority; in the same way that Satanís kingdom is described as a beast, with Satan being the seven heads, distinct from all those that are under his authority; likewise, I believe that we must make a distinction between the ram (and the goat) and the horns which give them their respective powers.
     This is why, as I have described in my previous posts, I view the ramís first horn as the written word (the law) given by Moses and the second horn as Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word, both given by the Father to be the power of His elect (the ram itself).  I think that it is important that the second horn is described as the higher horn which came up last.  This shows that each horn appears separately during the passage of time through the Old Testament period.  I think it is of the utmost importance to harmonize this vision of the ram and the appearance of its two horns with the other visions given in the book of Daniel.  This brings me to the fifth and final point.

5.  How do we properly harmonize the dreams and visions of the book of Daniel?

     As I said before, I think this may be the most important point of all, and I will need to write a lot to properly explain how I have come to certain conclusions.  The explanation here will probably be even longer than everything that I have written in this post so far.  Because this post is already so long, I will simply give a brief description and save the details for a later post.
 
I know you like charts, so I have tried to put together a very crude chart explaining how I see the harmony of the visions in this book:

             Creation------------------------------The Law----------------------The Cross---------------------------Sacrifice and Oblation Cease-----------------------Consummation
Daniel 2:   |-----------------Gold------------------||------------Silver------------||-----------------Brass----------------------||------------------Iron/Clay------------------|
Daniel 7:   |-----------------Lion------------------||-------------Bear------------||----------------Leopard---------------------||---------------Dreadful Beast---------------|
Daniel 9:   |---------------7 weeks----------------||----------62 weeks----------||---------------1/2 week--------------------||------------------1/2 week------------------|
                |-----------------------------------------------------------The Indignation Spans All 70 Weeks of History----------------------------------------------------------|
Dn. 8&11: |----------------Ram (East) vs. Goat (West) -------------------------||------------------------North vs. South----------------- (Last End of Indignation)-------|

     Now before everyone jumps on me for what I am showing here, please bear with me and give me a chance to explain.  I have what I believe to be Biblically valid reasons for seeing the visions in this way.  As I have explained in previous posts, I see the giving of the law as a focal point in many of the visions in Daniel, so I think that this is something that has to be taken into account in painting the big picture from the book of Daniel.
     Briefly, I see all of the visions of this book as God using the physical kings and kingdoms of this world to teach us about the more important spiritual realities taking place throughout all of world history that concern the establishment of His congregation in earth, how sin separates His people from Himself, and His work in removing that sin so that His elect can have a perfect and eternal relationship with Him.  Critical in this process is the role that He has for Satan in the world in general and more specifically within Godís congregation, working in those that claim to be of God but do not really belong to Him.  Also critical in this process is the giving of the law which shows us the way to the Father, but can do nothing to make us righteous in His sight.  Instead it magnifies our sin, bringing us under a curse and separating us from Him even more.  It took the sacrifice of Christ, fulfilling the law and taking it out of the way, to truly make us perfect so that we can have that perfect relationship with the Father.

     As the chart above shows, God has divided world history into four specific periods:

1. Creation unto the time that the law is given Ė The gold in Nebuchadnezzarís statue, the lion in Danielís first vision, and the first 7 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy correspond to this time period.
2.  The giving of the law unto the cross of Christ Ė The silver in Nebuchadnezzarís statue, the bear in Danielís first vision, and the 62 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy correspond to this time period.
3.  The cross unto the cessation of sacrifice and oblation Ė The brass in Nebuchadnezzarís statue, the leopard in Danielís first vision, and the first half of the final week of the 70 weeks prophecy correspond to this time period.
4.  The cessation of sacrifice and oblation unto the consummation Ė The iron/clay in Nebuchadnezzarís statue, the dreadful/terrible beast in Danielís first vision, and the second half of the final week of the 70 weeks prophecy correspond to this time period.

     I know that many will take issue with this, especially with the way that I have divided the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, but as I said before, I have Biblically valid reasons for doing this.  I donít have time now, but I will provide all of that information in the coming days.  For now, I will just say that it has never made sense to me to view the 70th week of the 70 weeks prophecy as a symbolic period of time, and then view the previous 69 weeks as a literal 483 years leading up to that point.  These 69 weeks are just as symbolic as the final week.  I understand that there are literal events and historical time periods that align very well with these 69 weeks, but as Tony Warren asked me in this forum many years ago Ė Do you really think that this is what God is interested in?  What does the literal represent?  This is what truly matters.  Likewise, we all see Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece in these prophecies, but is this what God is really interested in?  What do these nations represent?  The time that these nations span is just as symbolic as the nations themselves.  We must look deeper.
     So that we donít lose focus of the primary purpose of this thread, I just want to reiterate what I have been saying throughout.  The indignation between the elect and the reprobate within Godís congregation continues throughout the entire 70 weeks.  It is depicted as the ram and the goat prior to cross, and as the king of the south and king of the north after the cross.  It is crucial to understand that the horns of the ram signify the giving of the law and the coming of Christ.  The breaking of the ramís horns signifies the crucifixion of Christ which brings life to the elect and the removal of that law which was a curse and a harbinger of death for Godís elect.  This is the nature of Godís Word Ė the double edged sword, hot and cold, bitter and sweet, law and grace, death and life Ė and this is the power that God has given to His elect.  Christ (the incarnate Word) brought life by taking away the law (the written word) which brought death.

Colossians 2
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Please think carefully about what I posted previously concerning Moses and the reason that he broke the 10 commandments when he came down from Mt. Sinai.

Exodus 31
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.


ďHandwriting of ordinances that was against usĒ, ďtables of stone, written with the finger of GodĒ Ė Christ took it away by ďnailing it to his crossĒ.  This is why Moses broke the tables of stone and this is why the horns of the ram were broken.  Think about it carefully.

I have much, much more to say, but I will have to stop here for now.

William



"Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »
Quote from: Illuminated
The Old Testament congregation is stamped upon at Christís first coming.  The New Testament congregation is stamped upon at Christís second coming.  The first horn of the ram and the second horn of the ram are [size=0px]both broken at Christís first coming[/size][/b].  Neither horn has anything to do with the second coming.  Both horns belong to the ram [size=0px]which is cast down to the ground and stamped upon at Christís first coming[/size][/b].  The ram is not stamped upon at Christís second coming. God does use similar language to describe what happens to His congregation at the second coming, but He is not talking about the ram.

Does anyone agreed with Illuminated that the first horn of the Rams represented written Word (The Law) given by Moses, and the second and higher horn to represent Jesus Christ, the incarnate word, that they both must be broken at the Cross by HeGoat (Satan)? 

Based on Scripture I have read in related to higher horn being last:

Deuteronomy 9:13 [13] Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:  Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they. John 14:12 [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Haggai 2:5-9 KJV
[5]  According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.
[6]  For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
[7]  And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
[8]  The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
[9]  The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

 Mt 21:42-43
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. This is the greater power, the greater nation, the greater horn that comes up last. And this holy nation will bring forth more fruits in the New Testament than the Old Testament.  Abraham's seed is no longer just Israel, but great multitudes from all nations all over the Earth.
Which is why I think the ram of Daniel 8 represents Congregation of Israel.  The first horn represented the power of Old Testament congregation under the Law of Moses.  The second horn presented the power of New Testament Congregation under Christ which comes last, or after the first horn (the fall of Old Testament congregation).

I understand the point that Illuminated made that the horns of the rams must be broken before the horn upon the Goat is broken and the four horns came out because he read the verses in time sequence. I am not sure about that. 


What is your thought? 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 11:58:19 AM »
,....

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 12:21:58 PM »
To me, it does not make sense that the second horn of the Ram represented Christ's ministry for only few years before being cut off as the Goat break His horn.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2018, 10:59:19 PM »
Here is my basic understanding of Daniel 8 that you can read the verses yourself.  Welcome any feedbacks:

Ram with two horns = Congregation of Israel with first horn representing "Media" as power of Old Testament Congregation, and the second horn (higher) representing "Persia" as power of New Testament Congregation.

Note: If you read how Cyrus being God's servant to unite the kingdom of Media and Persia which is a foreshadow of how Cyrus, a type of Christ, reunite the kingdom of Old Testament and New Testament as one kingdom regardless of Jews and Gentiles.

He Goat with notable horn = The body of Satan with his power.

He Goat broke the horns of Ram = Satan have broken the power of Old and New Testament Congregation over time.

HeGoat's horn = The power of Satan was broken at the Cross so God could build His Kingdom through the Church in the New Testament as it expands to the whole Earth.

HeGoat's Four Horns = Satan's kingdom was allow to continue to work through the unsaved in the New Testament but did not have power to prevent church from spoiling Elect from his kingdom.

Little Horn out of one of four horns = Then come the time of the end, when the transgressors are come to the full is when Satan will have power through his false prophets and christs destroy the power of Holy People (Two Witnesses - Rev 11) in order to deceive many people who have not yet sealed by God in the congregation (Rev 9).  Just like he did with old testament congregation (the first Ram's horn he broke) until he is broken by Christ at the Second Coming.

I believe the 2,300 days concerning daily sacrifice being taken away and the desolation, could represent the period between when Two Witnesses was killed and the Second Coming.  I could be wrong. 


What you think?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 03:06:38 AM »
Hey Erik. I agree with your assessment of the he goat totally. I'm not 100 percent sure about the Ram with two horns, but that could be right also. I am just not sure because there doesn't seem to be enough evidence for me to say that conclusively. But it looks pretty good to me. I know the Ram represents God's congregation, just not sure at what time.

NoMass

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2018, 08:39:27 AM »
Wiki says th is about the interpretation of the ram, the he-goat, the great horn and the four new horns. The symbols of the ram and he-goat, explained in the text of Daniel 8 as representing the kings of Persia and Greece, are apparently drawn from the constellations that preside over Persia and Syria in Hellenistic astrology. Scholars are agreed that the goat's first horn (the horn which is broken) is Alexander the Great, and the four horns which then arise are the four generals who divided his empire. The detail that the goat does not touch the ground as he attacks the ram may reflect the speed of Alexander's conquest.

The "little horn" which arises from the four horns is Antiochus Epiphanes. It "grows in power to the south and to the east and towards the beautiful land," reflecting Antiochus' campaigns in Egypt (169-168 BCE), Persia (166 BCE) and Palestine (the "beautiful land"). "Truth was flung to the ground" by the little horn as it tramples the land: this is probably a reference to the Torah, the Law of Moses.

Daniel 8:13's "holy ones of the Most High" clearly means angels, although sometimes in the Hebrew Bible it seems to refer to the Israelites. Stars were commonly identified with angels in ancient Israel, and in 8:10 the reader is told that the little horn "grew great ... and some of the host of the stars it cast down to the ground and trampled upon them," indicating that Antiochus fights against the "heavenly host" of God's angels. Indeed, he "aspired to be as great as the Prince of the host," God himself.

Daniel is the only book in the Hebrew Bible which gives names to angels. Gabriel may have received his because he "has the appearance of a man" (Hebrew gaber); he appears here as a messenger and interpreter of God's message, the same role he was later given by the author of Luke's annunciation scene (Luke 1:19,26). Michael is depicted as Israel's guardian angel and a warrior. The prominence given these divine beings in Daniel is typical of Hellenistic Jewish literature, but much more restricted than in contemporary works such as First Enoch.

James Heckman

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2018, 10:53:27 AM »
Erik, you should consider the traditional Christian view.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/184-little-horn-of-daniels-sea-beast-the


Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 03:09:32 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
Hey Erik. I agree with your assessment of the he goat totally.

Glad to hear that.

Quote
I'm not 100 percent sure about the Ram with two horns, but that could be right also. I am just not sure because there doesn't seem to be enough evidence for me to say that conclusively. But it looks pretty good to me. I know the Ram represents God's congregation, just not sure at what time.

I know what you mean. It is obviously to me that the Ram represents God's congregation. Honestly I was struggling with the ram's horns because of timing. I thought the horns should represent the power of the congregation, first the Old Testament, then the New Testament. But the Scripture seems to say that both of the rams' horns were broken by the SINGLE HORN of HeGoat BEFORE its power was broken at the cross. I am not sure if God wanted us to understand the chapter in time sequence or He was just painting a picture about Satan being responsible for the apostasy/desolation of old and new testament congregation.

I can't think of biblical on what the second (higher) horn of the Ram represents before Satan's horn was broken at the Cross. Seems that we understood pretty much with most of Daniel 8, but stumbled with the timing of two rams' horns being broken.

 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 03:12:24 PM »
Quote from: NoMass
Wiki says th is about the interpretation of the ram, the he-goat, the great horn and the four new horns.

Wiki is not the authority. The Word of God is.  Better stick with the Bible.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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