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Author Topic: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8  (Read 6389 times)

Erik Diamond

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Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« on: April 21, 2008, 07:05:25 PM »
Someone asked me to start this new thread. Here you go.


Dan 8:3-7

    * Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    * I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
    * And as I was considering, behold, a he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
    * And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
    * And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with anger against him, and smote the ram, and broke his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.


Who does the ram with two horns represents?  Why is one of his horns higher than other. What does it mean when higher came up last?

I thought that maybe the ram represents Israel. With horns represents the strength of the congregations with New Testament congregation being last and higher than the first?  I might be wrong becasue of the timing of he goat attack against the ram? When did he goat attacked the ram and break its two horns before its great horn was broken at Cross?

I am interested to know what you think.

Thanks,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Beechwood

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 08:40:31 AM »

Dan 8:3-7

    * Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    * I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
    * And as I was considering, behold, a he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
    * And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
    * And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with anger against him, and smote the ram, and broke his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.


Who does the ram with two horns represents? 


 The goat with the horns symbolize the kingdom of Satan, with the horns representing his power to rule. So it would seem to me to be very biblical that the Ram with the two horns symbolizes the kingdom of Christ. the Goat's adversary. Isn't that why the goat came close to the Ram, and he was moved with anger against him, and smote the ram, and broke his two horns? In other words, he broke the power of the kingdom of Israel.  Isn't that the apostasy of Israell when Satan overran it before Christ came?

 Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Quote
Why is one of his horns higher than other. What does it mean when higher came up last?


Isn't that because his later power was greater than his first?  Didn't Christ break the great horn, and the four horns came up. Or satan's power was scattered until the time of the end.

 Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

 Isn't this speaking of the very same breaking of the power of Satan's kingdom by Christ? Christ broke the great horn.  What do you think?



Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 09:30:38 AM »
Quote
Why is one of his horns higher than other. What does it mean when higher came up last?


Isn't that because his later power was greater than his first?  Didn't Christ break the great horn, and the four horns came up. Or satan's power was scattered until the time of the end.

No. God said it was the Ram's horns.  Why is one of his two horns UPON THE RAM higher than first? And why is the higher one came up last?   These two horns were not on he-goat, Satan.  Let read the verses again:

Dan 8:3-4

    * Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    * I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

It is talking about kingdom of Israel (Ram).  My question is can anyone explain Ram's two horns? We already discussed about he-goat's great horn, four hours, and little horn, but I am interested in two horns upon Ram. 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Beechwood

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 01:39:22 PM »
Quote
Why is one of his horns higher than other. What does it mean when higher came up last?


Isn't that because his later power was greater than his first?  Didn't Christ break the great horn, and the four horns came up. Or satan's power was scattered until the time of the end.

No. God said it was the Ram's horns.  Why is one of his two horns UPON THE RAM higher than first? And why is the higher one came up last?   These two horns were not on he-goat, Satan.  Let read the verses again:

Dan 8:3-4

    * Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    * I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

It is talking about kingdom of Israel (Ram).  My question is can anyone explain Ram's two horns? We already discussed about he-goat's great horn, four hours, and little horn, but I am interested in two horns upon Ram. 

Erik

I'm sorry Erik, it was early and I was getting tongue tied there. What I mean is Christ broke the great horn of the Goat and scattered his power to the four winds.

"Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven".

As for the two Horns or power of the Kingdom of Christ, symbolized by the Ram. Isn't that symbolic of the power of the old Testament Israel kingdom and the New Testament Israel kingdom?  They are the two congregations representing the kingdom of the Ram?  So the greater power came up last because the church kingdom went into all the ends of the earth and brought in all nations. So that it wasn't just Israel, as was the power of the other horn. That's the greater power of the Ram kingdom.  The later is greater.

 Deuteronomy 9:13
 "Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".

 John 14:12
 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father".

 While blindness has happened to Old Testament Israel, New Testament Israel has grown and brought in countless souls to the throne of Grace by the power of the Kingdom. At least until the later days, when the little horn arises.

 Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 This is the greater power, the greater nation, the greater horn that comes up last. And this nation brings forth fruits. You follow what I'm saying? Abraham's seed is no longer just Israel, but great multitudes from all nations as the sand of the sea.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 01:52:04 PM »
Quote
As for the two Horns or power of the Kingdom of Christ, symbolized by the Ram. Isn't that symbolic of the power of the old Testament Israel kingdom and the New Testament Israel kingdom?  They are the two congregations representing the kingdom of the Ram?  So the greater power came up last because the church kingdom went into all the ends of the earth and brought in all nations. So that it wasn't just Israel, as was the power of the other horn. That's the greater power of the Ram kingdom.  The later is greater.


That is what I haved suggested earlier to see anyone agree with us on this or not.  If we are correct about two horns of Ram being old and new testament congreation, then why did he-goat come and break both ram's horns at the 'same time" before its long horn is broken at the Cross. The "higher' or 'greater' power of ram's horn did not occur until after the cross. 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 02:16:27 PM »
As for the two Horns or power of the Kingdom of Christ, symbolized by the Ram. Isn't that symbolic of the power of the old Testament Israel kingdom and the New Testament Israel kingdom?  They are the two congregations representing the kingdom of the Ram?  So the greater power came up last because the church kingdom went into all the ends of the earth and brought in all nations. So that it wasn't just Israel, as was the power of the other horn. That's the greater power of the Ram kingdom.  The later is greater.


hhmmmmm. That's interesting Beechwood. I'm going to have to chew on this a bit and get back to you. But off the top of my head it seems plausible and consistent with scripture. But I have to check all the little side streets and see if they all lineup. Because sometimes things seem right when they are not. It's good food for thought.


 

aquatic

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 11:36:03 AM »
The higher horn came up last

Haggai 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts

Another verse to think about

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2016, 01:11:01 PM »
Interesting, Aquatic, thanks for sharing.

It is hard to believe that it seems like yesterday when I realized that I started this thread in 2008! Time really have flew! I believe some of us now understand Daniel 8 than before.  I believe the reason is because we are living in the time of the end where our knowledge has increased to understand Daniel's visions, Daniel 12:4.

Amen?   

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Trotter

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 01:22:50 PM »
Outstanding.

Illuminated

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2016, 09:11:54 PM »
Quote
As for the two Horns or power of the Kingdom of Christ, symbolized by the Ram. Isn't that symbolic of the power of the old Testament Israel kingdom and the New Testament Israel kingdom?  They are the two congregations representing the kingdom of the Ram?  So the greater power came up last because the church kingdom went into all the ends of the earth and brought in all nations. So that it wasn't just Israel, as was the power of the other horn. That's the greater power of the Ram kingdom.  The later is greater.


That is what I have suggested earlier to see anyone agree with us on this or not.  If we are correct about two horns of Ram being old and new testament congregation, then why did he-goat come and break both ram's horns at the 'same time" before its long horn is broken at the Cross. The "higher' or 'greater' power of ram's horn did not occur until after the cross. 

Erik


Erik,
     I think you have made an excellent point here as to why we canít view these two horns as the old and new testament congregations.
 
Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


If we understand the breaking of the goatís great horn as the binding of Satan and diminishing of his power after the resurrection of Christ, then everything that we are reading about the ram and goat occurs prior to this event; therefore, the New Testament congregation canít be in view here.
     
     Before talking specifically about the meaning of the horns of the ram, I think it may be beneficial if we make sure that we are completely certain about the identities of the ram and the goat.  I donít think it is entirely correct to view the goat as the kingdom of Satan.  There is something more specific that God wants us to understand about this animal.  When God is describing Satanís kingdom, the symbols are those of wild, dangerous animals such as the ones that we see in Danielís vision in chapter 7 (lion, bear, leopard, dreadful terrible beast).  These animals represent the totality of Satanís kingdom in this world as it progresses throughout time.  Through Nebuchadnezzarís dreams and Danielís visions, God is showing us that He has set up Satan as the ruler of this world and that all people are under his dominion. 
     Through the vision of the relatively docile animals of the ram and goat that are uncharacteristically at great enmity with each other, we are being given a more detailed view into one specific aspect of Satanís kingdom Ė that of Godís congregation as it exists in this world that is under Satanís dominion.  I believe that this great mystery is revealed to us completely in the vision that John receives in Revelation of Mystery Babylon who is riding upon the seven-headed beast.

Revelation 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


God is letting us know that His congregation has always been a part of this kingdom ruled over by Satan.  The ram and goat are Godís people as they exist in Satanís kingdom prior to the Resurrection of Christ.  The reason that we see the great enmity between the two animals is that they represent people of two diverse natures that are within Godís congregation.

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left
.


     Whether through sheep and goats, tares and wheat, good fish and bad fish, fruitful trees and unfruitful trees, etc., etc., God shows us through many different symbols the two types of people that exist within His congregation Ė the elect and the reprobate.  The ram of Daniel 8 signifies Godís elect, while the goat signifies the unsaved within Godís congregation who claim to know Him but are not truly of God (they are not all Israel which are of Israel).  The enmity between them exists because they are ruled and led by two different spirits (this relates to the horns that give them their power). 
     God has been showing us examples of this enmity since the beginning of time.  Consider Cain and Able, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob/Israel and Esau/Edom - pairs of brothers (one chosen of God, the other given over to Satan) Ė who demonstrate this enmity throughout their lives.  Consider Joseph (a type of Christ) who was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers.  Consider the rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram when they rose up against Moses and Aaron (Numbers 16-17).  Then consider how God addresses all of these people in the New Testament when speaking about the nature of the enmity that exists within church.

Galatians 4
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Jude
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

(Also see Stephenís scathing rebuke of the nation in Acts 7, which prompted so much anger that his listeners stoned him to death.)

     The ultimate example of this enmity and hatred is the constant conflict between Jesus Christ and the religious leaders of Israel (the kingdom of heaven suffering violence), culminating with their crucifying the one who was supposed to be for their welfare (an act that will be repeated with the death of the two witnesses which we read about in Revelation 11).  There are many examples of this all throughout the Bible.  This is all that I will list for now to keep this post from becoming too long, but it is a subject that God has highlighted for us over and over again.  He wants us to know that there has always been this enmity and opposition between the people within His congregation. I really want to stress the fact that the ram and the goat have nothing to do with the world in general.  They symbolize the ongoing battle between good and evil within the house of God.  Prior to the cross, this battle is depicted by the opposing directions of east (the ram which is the kings of Media and Persia) and west (the goat which is the king of Greece).  The battle continues after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, but with the transition of the Kingdom from the old testament congregation to the new, the battle is now viewed as taking place between the king of the north and king of the south (think of Zechariahís prophecy of the Mount of Olives cleaving from east to west with half of the mountain going north and half going south Ė Zechariah 14).

Daniel 11
1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.


Daniel 11 and 12 describe the same conflict after the cross, throughout the New Testament age.  This enmity between the inhabitants of Godís kingdom continues throughout all of history and will not come to an end until the generation of evil passes away at Christís second coming.  Again, the ram and goat speak of the battle prior to the cross (another important fact that we cannot forget).  If we understand clearly who the ram and goat represent, then we can begin to properly understand the significance of the horns that are in their heads (that which gives them power).
     I have two ideas about this, and I am not sure which one makes more sense.  I think that these two ideas may be related in some way but I havenít been able to completely reconcile everything.  I will tell you what my thoughts are about this at the moment, and I hope that others may be able to elaborate on these ideas and that we can all come to the proper understanding.  My first thought is that we should approach the horns from the perspective of that which gives power to each of the respective animals.  In the case of the ram (representing Godís elect), I see this power as the Word of God that comes to His people by way of the Holy Spirit.

Ecclesiastes 8
4 Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

Jeremiah 10
10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jeremiah 51
15 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.


It is by power, wisdom, and understanding that God established this creation.  These are all references to His word by which He created all things.  Wisdom in particular points to the Holy Spiritís role in the creation.  Read Wisdomís plea to mankind to listen to her voice in Proverbs 8 and carefully consider everything that is said about her.

Proverbs 8
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 8
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Wisdom in this chapter and throughout the book of Proverbs signifies the Holy Spirit who fills Christ and all those who are His.

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


     I am showing all of this to try to demonstrate that the power depicted by the horns of the ram are significations for the Word of God which comes through the Holy Spirit (the author of scripture and the anointing which covers Christ).  Remember that the ram pictures Godís elect before the cross.  I believe that the first horn signifies the written word as God began to give it to the nation of Israel through Moses (the giving of the law happens to be a focal point of many of the visions given in Daniel).  I believe that the higher horn which came up last signifies Jesus Christ Himself, the incarnate word who comes to the nation of Israel to fulfill the law that was given by Moses.  Higher because Jesus Christ was the physical embodiment of Godís word, the Word made flesh.  We see through the goatís attack on the ram, breaking the ramís horns and stamping upon him, a vivid depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the scattering of the power of His people for this short period of time.  We must remember that all of Godís elect are spoken of as being crucified with Christ and raised together with him to new life.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


I mentioned that the giving of the law happens to be a focal point of many of the visons in Daniel.  This passage from Romans explains why.  The giving of the law, the crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ happen to be the most critical events in history as it pertains to the redemption of Godís elect.
     The breaking of the higher horn signifies the broken body of Christ at His crucifixion.  The breaking of the horn that came up first signifies the breaking of the power of the law that could only bring death to Godís people.  From this point on, they are no longer under that law with the fear of death hanging over their heads.  This is all explained in detail in Romans Chapters 5 Ė 8.  I must stress here what Paul also points out in the letter to the Romans.  The problem was not with the law.  He calls the law good, holy, and spiritual.  It was a guide to point us to Christ; however, it could only bring death.  It could never bring life to Godís elect.  Only the death and resurrection of Christ could do that.  I believe that we also see this breaking of the power of the law over Godís people in the depiction of Moses breaking the 10 commandments when he came down from Mount Sinai to discover that the children of Israel had corrupted themselves before God.

Exodus 32
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

Deuteronomy 9
7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.
8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.
9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.
12 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
13 Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.
16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
18 And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the LORD was wroth against you to destroy you. But the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also.
20 And the LORD was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
21 And I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, even until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount
.


     Read this passage from Deuteronomy very carefully.  As with all of the events recorded for us in the Old Testament, God is teaching us very important spiritual lessons through the information that He gives us.  Here we see Moses typifying Jesus Christ coming down from heaven (typified by Mount Sinai) to bring Godís Word to His people.  Because of their sin and their inability to keep Godís law, Moses (Christ) breaks the commandments and goes back into the mount to intercede for the people so that God does not destroy them.  This typifies Christís death (breaking of the stone tablets = breaking of the power of the law = breaking of the rams two horns), His resurrection, and His ascension back into heaven to intercede for us continually as our true high priest.  We also see here the grinding of the golden calf (Israelís sin) to dust, and this sin being cast into a brook flowing out of the mount (typifying the Holy Spirit coming from heaven to wash away our sin).  In addition to this, Moses has the people drink from the brook coming out of the mount - depicting the people of God being filled with that Spirit (the living water) that took away their sin.  This entire event is a symbolic demonstration of the redemption of Godís people by Jesus Christ.
     When the ram is stamped upon and his horns broken, it seems that Satan has achieved a great victory, but this victory will be short lived.  Just as with Joseph whose brothers sold him into Egypt, Christís brothers (the people of Israel) hand him over to the Gentiles to be crucified; but what they intended for evil, God uses for good to save much people alive.  Christ rises from the dead and breaks the horn of the goat instead, scattering his power and diminishing his kingdom.  This is what I believe is the correct interpretation of the ram and his two horns, but as I mentioned, there is another idea that I have been considering concerning the horns.  This has to do with the fact that horns often symbolize people as rulers who are in power.  From this perspective, I still see the higher horn as representing Christ, but I feel that the first horn may represent a specific person (or people) instead of just representing the word of God.  I will try to keep this explanation brief, since this post is already so long.

Esther 1
1 Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus, (this is Ahasuerus which reigned, from India even unto Ethiopia, over an hundred and seven and twenty provinces:)
2 That in those days, when the king Ahasuerus sat on the throne of his kingdom, which was in Shushan the palace,
3 In the third year of his reign, he made a feast unto all his princes and his servants; the power of Persia and Media, the nobles and princes of the provinces, being before him:


     I wonít go into detail about this now, but I see the entire book of Esther as an historical allegory teaching us about Godís plan of salvation for His people Israel.  I find it interesting that we read in the opening of this book about the power of Media and Persia being the nobles and princes of the provinces.  Because of this, I considered that the lower horn which precedes Christ may speak of other leaders who may have brought the word of God to Israel prior to the coming of Christ.  This could include a long line of individuals from the time of Moses up until the time of Christ, but there is one in particular that stands out in my mind that may qualify due to his importance just prior to the arrival of Christ and also due to the fact that he was prophesied to come in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 40
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Matthew 3
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John 3
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.


I also find it interesting that Gabriel, who interpreted the vision of the ram and the goat to Daniel, is the same angel sent by God to announce the birth of both John and Jesus.  Could John the Baptist be the first horn which precedes Christ (the higher horn which came up last)?  I am not completely sure, but I think it is something to consider, especially since John is prophesied to come in the Spirit and power of Elijah (filled with the same Holy Spirit and preaching the same word of repentance that Elijah preached). 
     I still lean more towards the first horn signifying the written word, but I think that John the Baptist could be important here as well.  Itís possible that both could be in view, but I donít know if that would make a lot of sense.  Maybe itís just one or the other, or something else that I havenít considered.  I would really like to get everyoneís thoughts on this.  I am sorry that this post has been so long.  I just wanted to be thorough.  I hope itís not too much.  Let me know what you think.

William
"Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79

Pilgrim

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2016, 09:53:29 PM »
 :GoodPopst:  Very Interesting Bill!
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2016, 04:08:24 AM »
William, the unsaved in the congregation are by nature of the kingdom of Satan. There's only two kingdoms. If they're not of the Kingdom of Christ, they're of the other and are in bondage there. So why do you say the goat is not of the Kingdom of Satan?

Illuminated

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2016, 10:10:16 AM »
William, the unsaved in the congregation are by nature of the kingdom of Satan. There's only two kingdoms. If they're not of the Kingdom of Christ, they're of the other and are in bondage there. So why do you say the goat is not of the Kingdom of Satan?

Frank,

     I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation, but I never intended to imply that the goat is not of the kingdom of Satan.  Indeed it is, and I think that this is the significance of the great horn which is in it's head.  I didn't touch on this subject in the post because I was trying to focus more on the horns of the ram, but just as we see these horns signifying the power given to God's elect by the word of God through the Holy Spirit, we likewise see the great horn of the goat signifying the power given to the reprobate within the congregation of God by the word of Satan through the spirit Antichrist.  This is the distinction that I was trying to highlight - the goat does not signify the unsaved of the world, but the unsaved among God's congregation (the tares among the wheat, the bad fish that are gathered along with the good but cast away at the end of time, the wandering stars among the stars that shine as the brightness of the firmament, the dead unfruitful trees among the trees that bring forth fruit, Judas among the twelve, the goats among the sheep, etc.).  Maybe I am wrong, but I think that this is an important distinction that needs to be made.  Jesus Himself tells us that these people are of their father the Devil, and I agree with Him wholeheartedly.

John 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Again, these people claim to be of God, but they are not (this is the significance of the goat).  Have you ever considered what Jesus means here when He tells the people that their father the Devil was a murderer from the beginning?  This is one of the points that I was trying to make in the previous post.  It is a reference to Cain, who was moved by the spirit of Antichrist to rise up and slay his brother Abel (God's elect).  Likewise, these children of the Devil (of the same nature as Cain) will rise up to slay their brother Jesus Christ.  God is letting us know that this enmity, strife, conflict, and warfare among his people has always been there.  There is nothing new under the Sun.  These people constantly warred against Jesus Christ.  This is the violence that the kingdom of heaven suffered from the time of John the Baptist.  They didn't fight with actual weapons of war.  Their spears, swords, and arrows were the words that they brought against Him (the lies of their father which Jesus also addresses in the passage above).

Psalm 57
1 Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.
2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.
3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.
4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

Psalm 64
1 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.
2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:
3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:
4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not.


These Psalms are prophecies about Jesus Christ, and the words that His enemies are attacking Him with are the lies of their father the Devil.  Of course these people represented by the goat are of Satan, and I never intended to imply otherwise.  Satan is the great horn that empowers them.  I believe that this horn at the same time signifies the religious leaders of the time (the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law who opposed Christ), and most importantly Judas who, moved by Satan, delivered the most grievous betrayal of all.

Psalm 109
1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;
2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.


Again we see the battle against Christ depicted in Psalms describing lying words as the weapons of those who came against Him.  They rewarded Him evil for the good that He brought in giving them the Word of God.  Notice how this Psalm transitions from speaking about these people in the plural to speaking about a single individual at whose right hand Satan will stand and his office will be taken by another.  There is no need to speculate about who this person is.  God tell us explicitly.

Luke 22
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Acts 1
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.


Again, the man Judas (filled with the spirit Satan), the  ultimate betrayer of Christ, was "of the number of the twelve", was "numbered with us", and "had obtained part of this ministry".  This was my point all along.  The ram and the goat which are at enmity with one another are of the same congregation.  The religious leaders of the nation Israel, and Judas in particular, moved by the spirit Satan and empowered with his words/lies, are what is signified by the great horn of the goat.  The goat itself is all of the reprobate among God's congregation (at this time, the nation Israel).  Together they come against the ram (Christ and His elect) and eventually have Him (and His elect) crucified (the breaking of the ram's horns and stamping of the ram upon the ground).  This "victory" is short lived as Christ is resurrected after three days (with His elect) and breaks the great horn of the goat (the kingdom is taken from Israel and given to another that will bring forth the fruits that God desired).  Notice that the kingdom is not gone.  It is altered and transferred to another.  As I stated in my previous post, this conflict that God describes between the inhabitants of His congregation will continue into the New Testament age, no longer signified by the ram from the east and goat from the west, but now signified by the king of the north and the king of the south.

So, I understand perfectly well that the goat is of the kingdom of Satan.  I never said otherwise, or at least I didn't intend to do so.  My point all along is that this goat does not speak of Satan's worldwide kingdom, but instead speaks of the people within God's congregation that he rules over.  I still stand by this distinction which I think is crucial for our understanding of many other things that are written in scripture.

I hope that clarifies my viewpoint.

William




"Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79

Erik Diamond

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2016, 09:26:03 PM »
Quote from: Illuminated
Erik,
     I think you have made an excellent point here as to why we canít view these two horns as the old and new testament congregations.
 
Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

It was good to hear from you again, Illuminated.

After re-studying Daniel 8, I believe that the Ram do symbolize kingdom of Israel with two horns representing the congregations of Old and New Testament with New Testament congregation being greater in power compare to old Israel after the Cross.

I do not believe that Daniel 8:7-8 should be understood in time sequence.  The keyword is "Therefore" in verse 8. God is just showing us who HeGoat is, the one who is responsible for breaking the power of old testament congregation in 32AD and the power of New Testament congregation during the "last end of the indignation." 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Susan

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Re: Ram with Two Horns of Daniel 8
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 04:22:58 AM »

 :BibleRead: Good posts all, I'm just so glad not to have to read posts about the two devils that were running for office anymore. Good to get back to Christ.  :cLaPpInGg:

 


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