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Author Topic: The Battle of Armageddon  (Read 14906 times)

George

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2019, 03:38:53 PM »
I read somewhere on this forum (sorry don’t have the link) that Armageddon is from two Hebrew words, har meaning mountain/hill (kingdom) and Megiddo which means Assembly.

...yes  ]ThUmBsUp[, and represents the church that is the final battleground and source of the great tribulation.

Rubbish!  Christians should always stick to a literal understanding of prophecy. Go by professor John F. Walvoord's adage that "if the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense." Don't spiritualize. Read it as God had it written. Megiddo is the site of the ancient city of Megiddo whose remains form a tell. It is situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 km south-east of Haifa. Megiddo is known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance. In the end times it is where the nations who will attack Israel will fight a great battle and be defeated by the Jews.


Erik Diamond

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2019, 03:45:59 PM »
Quote from: George
Rubbish!

Not really.  Reformer is correct.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

George

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2019, 05:14:04 PM »
Erik, what have I said that you find incorrect? Is Megiddo not the site of the ancient city situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 km south-east of Haifa? Yes. Isn't Megiddo known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance? Yes. So why are you so upset. You understand this is true don't you?

Mark?

Reformer?

Any one of you want to tell me that's not true?

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2019, 06:29:24 PM »
Tony, Reformer, myself have explained this to you before but you have deaf ears and won't receive it.

Tony wrote the other day with my addition:

The Mountains represent kingdoms in which Kings rule. Likewise, Megiddo was the literal place where the enemies of Israel were defeated, and thus is used of God to symbolize the place where the enemies of God are defeated spiritually. Just as Babylon was a literal/physical City, but is not the symbolic city spoken of in Revelation. God uses the name of that city in Revelation as a Symbol to illustrate this place is spiritually as Babylon. Same principle as Mount of Megiddo. It has nothing to do with a physical Mountain in the place called Megiddo. (reference)

Therefore, Armageddon would be the Spiritual kingdom where Covenant Israel's enemies are defeated. Where the spirits gathered the kings of the earth that God might judge them there. Wherever the spiritual battle are found in the Churches all over the world, Gog and Magog,  not some literal battle with guns and missile in physical nation Israel.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2019, 12:42:00 AM »
>>>
I have a question concerning Armageddon. Why the city of Megiddo? I understand why Babbylon but am coming up short on Megiddo.
<<<

Actually it's not unlike Babylon in the sense that the name is "spiritually" representative of its history. Megiddo was a city that was located in Canaan. The “king of Megiddo” was among those whom Joshua defeated in battle after the Israelites entered the land of Canaan (Joshua 12:21). In this prophecy of Revelation 16:16, this city represents the place where the kings of the earth and the whole world are gathering together as forces of evil against God's people. These wicked are gathered to Armageddon or the mount of Megiddo, (from the Greek [Har-Meggiddon]) for this epic final spiritual battle. And the Lord prevails over them just as in Biblical history. The Hebrew word [megiddo] meaning a gathering or assembly. while the Mountain in Scripture represents a kingdom or the place where kings rule and reign. Revelation 16 uses this word to illustrate the place where His people war and overcome their enemies through Christ Jesus. It is here that they (these enemies of God signified as unclean spirits) were gathered together so that they would finally be judged of God (Revelation 6:10). This place of judgment is called Armageddon to signify where the unfaithful enemies of God  will be judged and desolated for their abominations there. Just as in the prophecy of Babylon, Megiddo is a name used symbolically for this epic kingdom battle. It is a portrait of the final, apocalyptic battle in the church, the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on earth.

The symbolical significance of the battlefield of Megiddo is of an end time war between the servants and forces of good and evil where the enemies of the kingdom of God will be defeated.

The question is asked, why Megiddo? I believe that it (like other names of cities) direct us to historical events, origin, character, record or legend. In this case because it was on the battlefield of Megiddo that God's servants Barak and Deborah defeated the wicked enemies of God in the land of Canaan. It is used as a sort of "type" prefiguring the kings of the earth and their desolating loss in this decisive battle.

Judges 5:18-21
  • "The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
  • They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
  • The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength."

God defeated these kings of Canaan because they were enemies of the children of God. In this same way the kings of the earth come up against the children of God and likewise come up empty and defeated there. Not unlike the King of Babylon was defeated and the children of God delivered from that city.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2019, 05:41:06 PM »
myself have explained this to you before but you have deaf ears and won't receive it.

As usual, Erik didn't bother to answer my question. My question was very specific. Erik, what have I said that you find incorrect? Is Megiddo not the site of the ancient city situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 km south-east of Haifa?

The answer is Yes.

Isn't Megiddo known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance?

The answer is Yes.

So why are you so upset. You understand this is true don't you?

So Erik, Mark, Reformer?

Any one of you want to tell me that's not true? That's my question.  )anyone(

David Knoles

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2019, 06:48:49 PM »
So why are you so upset. You understand this is true don't you?

So Erik, Mark, Reformer?

Any one of you want to tell me that's not true? That's my question.  )anyone(

Nicely done. Give them some of their own medicine. Questions.  )smileyBounce(

Mark

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2019, 07:37:23 PM »
myself have explained this to you before but you have deaf ears and won't receive it.

As usual, Erik didn't bother to answer my question. My question was very specific. Erik, what have I said that you find incorrect? Is Megiddo not the site of the ancient city situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 km south-east of Haifa?

The answer is Yes.

Isn't Megiddo known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance?

The answer is Yes.

So why are you so upset. You understand this is true don't you?

So Erik, Mark, Reformer?

Any one of you want to tell me that's not true? That's my question.  )anyone(

As usual you are looking for justification rather than truth. Yes Megiddo was a place in Israel as recorded in scriptures (Joshua 17:11, Judges 5:19, 1 Kings 4:12 etc.) but you already know that it’s located in a valley not a mountain so please read Gods word in context.

2 Chronicles 35:22

22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.


Is this the place the battle of Armageddon will take place or is it in the assembly of the people that have become spiritually Egypt and Sodom, you decide.

Rev 16:16

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Tony Warren

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2019, 01:14:45 AM »
>>>
Is Megiddo not the site of the ancient city situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 km south-east of Haifa?
<<<

Perhaps. However, the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation. This because that prophecy has nothing to do with a geographical location in Israel. In Revelation chapter 16 the kings of the earth, which are also identified as the followers of the Beast, unclean spirits, and the false prophets, come to fight against the servants of God "located" in the camp of the saints. The camp of the saints is not in a city called Megiddo in Israel. They are international believers identified as God's church. False prophets aren't interested in physical wars upon hills, they are interested in deceiving those of the church. Their warfare is not f flesh or carnal--it's not of this world in a physical way. The battle is as spiritual as the battle of these kings that Satan gathers from the four corners of the earth in his "universal" war against God's congregation. The place of the battle is symbolically called the mount of Megiddo, not because it is in physical Megiddo, rather because it is a kingdom wherein God shall have a glorious victory "as He did" in Megiddo thousands of years ago. And so seeking the geographical location of this city that existed years ago to fulfill future prophecy is about as wise as seeking the geographical location where Israel sacrificed Lambs to fulfill Christ being sacrificed on the altar. One doesn't define the other, it points to it as a likeness of its fulfillment. The Physical pointed to the Spiritual. For example:

Amos 9:14
  • "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Sure, some misguided souls look at that and expect physical restorations and rebuildings when the prophecy was of something Spiritual coming in the likeness of rebuilding and a freeing a captivity in Israel. Not Physical or national Israel, but the church. As indeed God's word confirms "clearly" in Acts:

Ac 15:14-17
  • "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
  • And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
  • After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
  • That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

Sure some think the return of the captivity refers top a future event of physical and national Israel, but God says this was fulfilled in Christ's Church. God said He would bring again the captivity of His people of Israel that they can build again the waste cities that had been destroyed. And He Did! God's "authoritative" word said that this was all fulfilled. Because the prophecy was not of restoring a Physical location or city that was brought to ruin, but it spoke of spiritual restoration. Likewise the Megiddo you believe is the site of the ancient city and situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz 30 km south-east of Haifa "is irrelevant" to the prophecy concerning false prophets and the beast.

Revelation 16:15-16
  • "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
  • And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

God's warning is not for the people of National Israel to watch for the invading armies of foreign nations, but to the saints to "watch" so that they keep their spiritual garments so that they do not walk in the shame of the nakedness of their sin (Revelation 3:17). For Christ comes as a thief in the night when you least expect it, and if the church isn't the proverbial watchmen that they are commanded to be, they will find themselves as the unwise virgins with lamps without oil.


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>>>
Isn't Megiddo known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance?
<<<

Yes. But this historical city is not known for its fulfillment in being the physical location of a physical battle alleged to take place in National Israel. That is to say, not in God's prophetic word. It may be in a doctrine like Dispensationalism, but the Scriptures never declares any battle will happen in that physical location of the middle east. The mountain of Megiddo God's place of victory, not national Israel's. Names represent spiritual things. God prophesied that He would make a New Covenant with Israel. That's the New Covenant that all Christians have part of through Christ. Does that mean we're in a covenant with the nation of Israel in the middle east? Absolutely not, though you might think so listening to the preachings of many TV evangelicals. The point is, just because God uses a name of a person, place, nation or city, does not mean we search that city, person or place to find the fulfillment of prophecy in that person or place. Interpretations belong to God, not to TV evangelicals. Not to Tony Warren or any other individual or church group. In other words, we don't ask ourselves if a valley of Megiddo is known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance, we ask ourselves if there is some Spiritual significance to God speaking of a mountain of Megiddo as the place where the final battle in the church will be played out. We don't ask if a special people clinging to a plot of earth in the middle east called Israel will be saved by God, we ask if a people clinging to the man Christ, THEE Israel of God, located all over the world, will be saved by God. This is a battle not of earthly munitions, weapons and nations, but a spiritual battle much more important. Whether we survive the battle of Armageddon depends upon if we are equipped with Christ, or with the spirit of this world. The Strong in the Lord will survive it because they worship Him in Spirit and truth, not in vain words, self-justification and worldly notions of wars, rumors of wars and plots of earth in the Middle East.

Ephesians 6:10-18
  • "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
  • Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
  • For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
  • Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
  • And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
  • Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
  • And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
  • Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"


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>>>
So why are you so upset. You understand this is true don't you?

So Erik, Mark, Reformer?
<<<

I don't know that they are upset, but I'll let them speak for themselves. As for myself, whether these things are true or not is really not the point. It's true Egypt was a rich nation with smart people with a lot of technical skills, but is that the point in its name as Egypt is used and defined in Scripture? Canaan was a rich and beautiful land, but is that the point of its name in Scripture? You have to look deeper (as in the exhaustive Bible) to see, not in the history books and locations in Israel. Israel is pictured as an Olive Tree. But is the "point" that Israel is an actual tree? Is the point that an Olive Tree in Iraq means Iraq is Israel? Of course, you'll say, that's silly. Yes, it is. The truth is that the Olive Tree in Scripture "represents" the oil, fruitfulness, goodness, peace, and prosperity, that is in Christ Jesus--the only Israel of God in which her people will prosper.  As in all these names of people, Places and things. They "represent" something infinitely more important than an earthly Kingdom, Tree, City, Temple, Army, etc., etc.

So I could ask you the same question. You do understand this is true don't you?

You don't interpret prophecy by following and literally transposing history's physical people, places and things into it, rather you interpret prophecy by following and Spiritually transposing history's people, places and things into it--according to God's defining it. i.e., the Prophesy was that Elijah would come before the Messiah. It wasn't of Elijah the prophet who had gone before would literally be reincarnated, but of another who would come in the Spirit and power of Elijah. And that prophecy was Spiritually fulfilled in John the Baptist just as it was meant to be.. Likewise, when God prophesied that in the future a place called Babylon would fall, it is not of the literal physical place located in Iraq, it was of a place that would Spiritually become as Babylon was defined in Scripture. Or again, when God prophesied of the raising up of the tabernacle of David that had fallen, the thing He prophesied of was not a physical structure that collapsed, rather it was the Spiritual house that would be built again of all nations. These people, places and things were not to be understood as a prophecy of very literal people, places and things, but to be understood in spirit and truth. The prophecies were meant to be understood "exactly" as God had always meant for them to be understood. Not as a man might surmise they should be understood. For this is the same error made by the Jewish leaders at Christ's first advent. They were literally looking for Christ to establish a literal Kingdom in physical Israel, and for Him to Literally free the Jewish people from captivity under Roman rule, and for Elijah the prophet to literally come back before the Messiah. Like many today, they couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

They looked for a literal Elijah coming and failed to understand John the Baptist came in the "Spirit and Power" of Elijah. They looked for an earthly Kingdom, and yet the prophecy of the Kingdom being restored was not of earthly Israel, but Spiritual Israel. They looked for an earthly literal Temple being rebuilt and understood not that the Temple being rebuilt was Spiritual, with Christ being the chief cornerstone of that building, and we all being living stones of Him. All these things are clearly laid out in God's word. I didn't make this up, it is written. You see the problem is always the same. Do we interpret Scripture by Scripture (God's word), or do we privately/personally interpret it according to church leaders or our own will? We shouldn't be surprised that History repeats itself. ...literally

Ecclesiastes 1:9
  • "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Or in today's vernacular, what goes around comes around. There is nothing new under the sun.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
Perhaps. However, the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation.

That makes no sense.


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In Revelation chapter 16 the kings of the earth, which are also identified as the followers of the Beast, unclean spirits, and the false prophets, come to fight against the servants of God "located" in the camp of the saints.

You are all over the place. You should know that scholars agree that the Beast, Antichrist, seals and trumpets, and so forth as yet to be revealed in history. So you're just making things up. When the Beast shows up, you'll know it.


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The camp of the saints is not in a city called Megiddo in Israel.

You're right about that. Because Megiddo is in Israel.


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False prophets aren't interested in physical wars upon hills, they are interested in deceiving those of the church.

Or Israel through a false peace treaty.


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The battle is as spiritual as the battle of these kings that Satan gathers from the four corners of the earth in his "universal" war against God's congregation.

Why would all the nations of the world come against a church? No, they come against another nation, Israel.


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The place of the battle is symbolically called the mount of Megiddo, not because it is in physical Megiddo, rather because it is a kingdom wherein God shall have a glorious victory "as He did" in Megiddo thousands of years ago.

More Spiritualizing. The wrong way to interpret prophesy.


 
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Amos 9:14
  • "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Didn't Israel literally do that? You must stop this spiritualizing.


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Sure, some misguided souls look at that and expect physical restorations and rebuildings when the prophecy was of something Spiritual coming in the likeness of rebuilding and a freeing a captivity in Israel.

You mean misguided like the Apostles?

Reformer

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2019, 03:22:19 AM »
Perhaps. However, the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation.

That makes no sense.

Actually it does, but since you reject the allegories that God uses throughout scripture, it's not surprising that you are confounded by the truth.

Mt 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

The prophecy of Elijah coming made perfect sense in being about John and not literally Elijah. ...if you will receive it.


Colleen

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2019, 02:37:02 AM »
Actually it does, but since you reject the allegories that God uses throughout scripture, it's not surprising that you are confounded by the truth.

And it's not like God hasn't foretold of this discrepancy of understanding among those who think God's vision is foolishness and those who he has chosen to get it.

I Corin. 1:27
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

It's under his sovereign control who gets it and who doesn't.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2019, 05:17:13 AM »
>>>
Perhaps. However, the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation.

That makes no sense.
<<<

Actually it makes perfect sense. Because (as I said) the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon detailed in Revelation. This because the Revelation prophecy has nothing to do with a geographical location in Israel, but with the character of God's victory at Migiddo. In other words, the historical city is used in Revelation merely as a spiritual indicator of God's great victory over His enemies. This isn't a novel or revolutionary approach to prophecy, in fact it is "typical" of the way God authors Prophecy. For example, did it make no sense with the prophecy of Jerusalem being comforted after her war, and that prophecy having nothing to do with a physical city or a physical war that would take place within her? Did that make sense to you?

Isaiah 40:1-3
  • "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
  • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Of course it makes perfect sense because God's ways are not your ways. God was speaking about a spiritual Jerusalem whose builder and maker is God, and about a spiritual warfare. He was addressing how He would bring this Spiritual Jerusalem peace by reconciling His people to God whom "they" were in Spiritual war with. Yes it made sense Jerusalem was a literal city in the middle east and that her people would be brought peace in Christ. And that this prophecy of Jerusalem did not pertain to that literal historical city but to a Spiritual one. He spoke not of a physical city being comforted or of a physical war ceasing, rather He spoke of a Spiritual city, war, people and peace. As sure as I'm writing to you, Christ brought peace to Jerusalem that her war with God was over and thus brought her peace. At the cross. And it makes "Perfect" sense not to be a prophecy understood as a literal/physical city, war and peace. A city doesn't have iniquity that needs to be pardoned, nor does a city (Isaiah 40:2) receive of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. People both can and do. Thus the prophecy was never about a literal city, ar or peace, and it makes "perfect" sense just as the city of Megiddo does.

Ephesians 2:14-15
  • "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

We are the habitation of God, the Jerusalem that God came to bring peace to, that our warfare with Him was accomplished. Yes, it makes perfect sense because God has always prophecied this way, even when people refused to receive it.


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>>>
You are all over the place. You should know that scholars agree that the Beast, Antichrist, seals and trumpets, and so forth as yet to be revealed in history. So you're just making things up.
<<<

The only theological scholars that I listen to are those who bear testimony to what the word of God actually says, not those speculating about the middle east, Holy Temples, the common market, Russian tanks, Iraq, the holy land, one world governments, unity of the world coming against Israel with bombs and guns. I'm not interested in fables, dreams, visions, the ramblings of TV Evangelicals, or wild political speculations. It is "they" who are making things up, not I.

Revelation 16:14
  • "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Satan is not loosed to gather his army against the nation of Israel, he is gathering them together to fight against "His People," who are the saints of the church. He is at enmity with the church and his mission is to bring abominations into it that it might become desolate. Much like what Christ said he did with regards to the Old Testament church represented by Jerusalem.

Luke 13:34-35
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
  • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

And true to His word, the Old Testament church was left desolate in Christ's victory over Satan. Should we think the New Testament church is any better to escape God's judgment when they kill the two witnesses, kill the Lord's two prophets, and stone those that are sent as His Messengers?  I think not.


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>>>
When the Beast shows up, you'll know it.
<<<

I believe I will, the question is, will everyone? And the answer is no! Most wouldn't know or be able to distinqusih between the Beast from a movie monster called Godzilla. The Beast deceives specifically because it is the great deceiver, not because it's so evident everyone will know it for what it is.

Revelation 17:7
  • "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns/i]."

The point being, if the Beast was not understood by John in this revelation from God without being informed what it Spiritually "represented," what would ever make you surmise that the Beast would be readily known for what it is? Many will wonder in amnazement at the beast, but few will have it revealed by God the evil and wickedness that it represents. ...else many would not be deceived and indeed marked of this Beast ...would they?


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The camp of the saints is not in a city called Megiddo in Israel.

You're right about that. Because Megiddo is in Israel.
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I don't know what that means but yeah, the churches aren't in national Israel, they are all over the world. That's why Satan gathers his army from the four corners of the earth (all over the world). Which means the victory of God's people in the mount of Megiddo is all over the world, not in a singular physical place in the middle east, in a Spiritual place all over. Just like the Jerusalem of God is all over the world. Wherever the false prophets are, there will be the victory of God in the mount of Megiddo.


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False prophets aren't interested in physical wars upon hills, they are interested in deceiving those of the church.

Or Israel through a false peace treaty.
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A false peace treaty manufactured by themselves and confirmed by Dispensationalists.

Jeremiah 4:10
  • "Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."

For there is no peace in Jerusalem without Christ. Selah.


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Why would all the nations of the world come against a church?
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Number one, because the nations/Gentiles are unsaved and so are naturally at enmity with the kingdom of God, which is all over the world (Luke 17:20-21). That is to say, if we believe God's word. Friendship with the world is automatically enmity with God.

Number two, Satan is the great deceiver and the father of lies, and he rules all who are not children of God. He is the adversary of God.

Number three, the law, which is the word of God that the church brings, is a torment to the world that they want silenced.

And number four, God has put in their hearts to fulfill prophecy and come against the unfaithful church as judgment.

Revelation 17:16-18
  • "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
  • For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
  • And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

There we see a woman on a beast with 10 kings attacking her.   Oh, there goes God Spiritualizing again...


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 No, they come against another nation, Israel.
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I could ask the same question you did. Why would all the physical nations of the world come against the nation of Israel. The answer, they wouldn't. But all the people from all the nations of the world who are unquestionably at enmity with God would come against the church that torments them. As Indeed Christ fully prophesies of this when telling of the killing of the two witnesses, the two prophets, the two candlesticks.

Revelation 11:9-10
  • "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
  • And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

Why would they? This is why.


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The place of the battle is symbolically called the mount of Megiddo, not because it is in physical Megiddo, rather because it is a kingdom wherein God shall have a glorious victory "as He did" in Megiddo thousands of years ago.

More Spiritualizing. The wrong way to interpret prophesy.
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Isaiah 40:3-5
  • "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
  • Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
  • And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

If you were to look for physical highways In Israel, Physical construction workers digging in the ground making Highways straight, physical valleys being made like mountains and physical mountains being made as valleys, while all the physical people in the world observed it, you would miss Christ altogether.

Which in part, national Israel did.

For it was they who were looking at the wrong way to interpret prophesy. Just as the Dispensational army is today.


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Amos 9:14
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Didn't Israel literally do that? You must stop this spiritualizing.
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Luke 4:17-21
  • "And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
  • The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
  • To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
  • And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
  • And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Fulfilled not as they imagined but fulfilled as was always intended by God. Christ preached no physical deliverance to the physical captives, He freed no physical captivity from the Roman rulerss, and He set no prisoners free physically. John the Baptist sat in prison and Christ made no effort to set him free. Why? Because the prophecy that He said was fulfilled was not addressing physical highways, prison houses, captivity, physical restoration of Israel, nor the physical establishment of an earthly kingdom. Christ was indulging in this very same Spiritualizing that "you" are so offended by and claim must stop. I say, God forbid. In point of fact, the people of national Israel are still in that prison today, still held captive today, still having not drunk the wine of that vineyard today that produced the fruit that Scripture spoke of. Because He was Spiritualizing and they were literalizing, just like you. They rejected the stone of the rebuilding of the Holy Temple because they were looking to the building again of a Physical Temple. They were in futility looking to the restoration of a physical Kingdom, of bricks and growing physical Vineyards.

Luke 20:16-17
  • "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
  • And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?"

While Dispensationalism is waiting for a carnal returning of the captivity, of physical restoring and rebuilt cities, God has an infinitely greater thing in mind than plots of earth, grapes or stones in a man constructed Temple in the middle east. So I'll stop Spiritualizing when Christ stops, and not a moment before. You use the word Spiritualizing as a substitute for God's allegorizing. Unfortunately, instead of spiritualizing the literal or physical as Christ did, you seem to joy in literalizing the spiritual. The Vinyard that was taken from them and given to another is the representation of the kingdom of God, which is now given to the church.


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Sure, some misguided souls look at that and expect physical restorations and rebuildings when the prophecy was of something Spiritual coming in the likeness of rebuilding and a freeing a captivity in Israel.

You mean misguided like the Apostles?
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Yes, like the Apostles were misguided in thinking Christ shouldn't die, or that they could divorce, or Christ shouldn't wash their feet, or that Christ wasn't resurrected, or that Christ's kingdom was of this world--before the Spirit taught them the truth of all these matters. Did you think the Apostles had perfect knowledge of the Spiritual significance of prophecy during His earthly ministry? You are mistaken.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Joe Johnson

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2019, 12:57:27 PM »
Is it irrelevant that Israel has come back into its land in 1948 in the war of independence?  ::)

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Battle of Armageddon
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2019, 01:24:18 PM »
Quote from: Joe Johnson
Is it irrelevant that Israel has come back into its land in 1948 in the war of independence?

It is IRRELEVANT because literal national restoration is not prophesied in the Bible, because some Dispensationalists misunderstood with the words, "Jews", "land", "12 tribes" "lost sheep", "conditional v.s. unconditional promises" etc. 



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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