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Author Topic: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation  (Read 4469 times)

Erik Diamond

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Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« on: December 27, 2007, 01:16:13 PM »
Hello, people.

I will be flying to Las Vegas for bible study tomorrow afternoon, but we are having another major snowstorm in Colorado today. Hope I will make it. 

Anyway, I thought I will go ahead and start a new topic on this sleepy forum to see if anyone like to discuss.  The topic I want to discuss is discerning the abomination of desolation.

Mat 24:15-16
  • When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
  • Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

I have talked with some people who admited that apostasy/abomination of desolation might take place, yet they deny that the great tribulation has already arrived.  Their explanation were as followed:     

1.)  "I just got saved recently, therefore, I do not believe Great Tribulation is here yet."
 
2.)  "Yes, I see churches falling in my area, but there are still faithful churches somewhere 2,000 miles away or there are faithful gospel radio, therefore Great Tribulation is not here yet."

I am not sure if these are correct assessment in order to discern the abomination of desolation.  Some insisted that we have to witness EVERY church being apostate before assume that we have entered the Great Tribulation period.  In fact, we did not aware that we have entered into great tribulation period when God have finished sealing his people (Rev 7) and when Satan came out to kill Two Witnesses (Rev 11).  We did not realize until the Spirit of Life come upon us so we could start discern the signs of abomination of desolation. 

What I like to know from you to see if someone is right to assume that great tribulation is not here yet, just because he knows some 'faithful' church on the radio, internet, or like some pastors thousand of miles away despite the condition of his local/regional churches? 

As for people who claimed that they are 'recently' saved; is it possible for them to 'realize' their salvation during Great Tribulation period after God sealed them before great tribulation started?  Or does the last Elect have to knowledge his salvation before great tribulation can start?

Lastly, do you agree or not, is biblically impossible for Elects to understand prophecies 'before' Great Tribulation starts (so to warn others what to expect), or we only can start understand the signs 'after' the enlightenment with Spirit of Life after 3-1/2 'silence' in the city, Rev 11, when you will realize what abomination of desolation and the need to flee?   

Appreciate your feedback,

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Penne

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 08:40:07 PM »

Quote from Erik
I have talked with some people who admited that apostasy/abomination of desolation might take place, yet they deny that the great tribulation has already arrived.  Their explanation were as followed:     

1.)  "I just got saved recently, therefore, I do not believe Great Tribulation is here yet."
 
2.)  "Yes, I see churches falling in my area, but there are still faithful churches somewhere 2,000 miles away or there are faithful gospel radio, therefore Great Tribulation is not here yet."

I am not sure if these are correct assessment in order to discern the abomination of desolation. 


Matthew 24
15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Verse 15 is the key verse in my mind.  We are not to judge by any method other than identifying the abomination of desolation in the church, then we are to flee into the mountains. 


These comments seem to me like people are weighing what appears right to them and are not really serious when the Bible instructs them to flee.   They play too many mind games with themselves, which could be an excuse not to obey God.


Quote from Erik
What I like to know from you to see if someone is right to assume that great tribulation is not here yet, just because he knows some 'faithful' church on the radio, internet, or like some pastors thousand of miles away despite the condition of his local/regional churches?
 

Matthew 24:23
23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

andreas

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 12:15:45 AM »
<<<The topic I want to discuss is discerning the abomination of desolation.>>>

God the Holy Spirit has to illuminate our understanding in order to understand the spiritual concepts of the end of times.

11.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16

The Holy Spirit will show us things to come.  Only those whose spiritual eyes have been opened by God Himself,  can discern the signs of the times .

5.Whoso keeps the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerns both time and judgment. Ecclesiastes 8

14.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they [the things of God] are spiritually discerned. I Corithians 2

3.And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? Matthew 16

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs dią udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Erik Diamond

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 03:16:12 PM »
Thank you Penne and Andreas. These are helpful responses.

It is pretty amazed to me on how Christians can find excuses for not leaving church 'yet' because they don't feel it is the time, despite the signs we are seeing. On other hands, some people would tell me that I might be wrong with timing because they think I simply do not want to go to church anymore.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

anthony57

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 09:41:30 AM »
I believe God will effectually call His elect out though..I recently read where a person left a reformed church she enjoyed  but because of serious doctrinal differences she has finally left  and I doubt if she will join another  church ..But yeah I trust the call in rev 18 is a effectual call , but he brings some out sooner than others..I would hope that His coming all will have come out..
"There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

charles spurgeon

Erik Diamond

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 12:53:47 PM »
Good morning.

I got home last night from Las Vegas where I was teaching biblical prophecy classes.  Among the audience, was my father. As I predicted, I did not able to get most people to agree with my teaching.  At the end of the conference, I asked for responses.  Here are a few:   

1.) "I agree that churches are in bad shape, however, I do not feel Great Tribulation is here yet, for I have not really seen anything big against against Christians yet." 

2.) "I think I am seeing the church falling, but it has to do with weakness of national Israel"

3.) "I believe that God is going to save some more Jews in Israel after church age is over, because somewhere in Bible that God promised Israel a land."

4.) "The church and National Israel are related, whatever happens to Israel physically, is what happened to church spiritually - dual fulfillment"

5.) "Israel in 1948 or 1967 is a proof that God will use Israel again, instead of only church! That is the sign!"

6.) "No church is prefect"

7.) "We are supposed to go to church regardless. God is love and does not want us to forsake the assembly"

8.) "Salvation will never ceased until the end!"

9.) "Flee to Mountains of God, where is that?"

10.) "Revelation 11:11 is talking about the rapture."

I am pretty stunned that they are brainwashed by pre-millennialists about Israel, even my father. Let pray for these people to have the discernment.

Erik




"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Raybob

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 10:30:45 PM »
I left organized churches a few years ago.  The longer I've been away the more I wonder when "going to church" was ever something faithful Christians ever did.  In the new testament, there was never a building erected for fellowship meetings or any "services" that I can see.  Looking back at all the 'churches' I was a member of, every one had a man at a pulpit as the 'spiritual leader', not just a group of Christians with Christ as the head.  If the "church age" ever ended, then tell me, when did it ever begin?

Raybob

Doug Johnson

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 10:41:00 PM »
If the "church age" ever ended, then tell me, when did it ever begin?

Raybob


It began when Christ instituted it, the new testament congregation. The word Church simply means assembly. The Apostles were the Church, and so are all Christians who assemble together any time thereafter. So to ask when the New Testament Church began, is to not know scripture. 

As for the abomination of desolation, read your history.

Tony Warren

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 08:54:59 AM »
>>>
 If the "church age" ever ended, then tell me, when did it ever begin?
Raybob

It began when Christ instituted it, the new testament congregation. The word Church simply means assembly. The Apostles were the Church, and so are all Christians who assemble together any time thereafter.
<<<

Doug, for once I actually agree with you. Yes, a church can be in a building, assembly in a tent or assembling on a dirt island or lake. The New Testament church age was indeed instituted by Christ in his death and resurrection.

1st Corinthians 11-19
  • "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
  • For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
  • For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

Yes, the church was an established body, with established leaders, some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors. Yes, that new Testament dispensation or age has been established by Christ.


Quote
As for the abomination of desolation, read your history.

No, that's incorrect.  Rather, read your bible. Read what God has to say about abominations and its resulting desolation. History cannot define the abomination that will make desolate, only the bible can do that. And it defines it as the abominations man brings to God's house, church, assembly, tent, congregation, whatever you choose to call it. Those abominations invariably and ultimately leave it destitute. The problem is, much of the church reviles such proclamations of church degradation, apostasy and ultimate desolation. Just as the congregation did when Christ proclaimed these truths concerning them in His first advent. E.g.:
 
Luke 16:14-15
  • "And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
  • And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

The leaders of God's congregation hated hearing the truth about their abominations, their apostasy, and impending the fall of their house. And likewise, the leaders of the Lord's congregation today revile and deride those who come with these same truths. They also are the men of renown, those highly esteemed among men, but likewise are an abomination unto God. Just as Christ said the Scribes and Pharisees of the first advent were. They just didn't it! Like many today they were looking for a literal physical Kingdom, a literal king to deliver them from the Romans, a literal physical promised land. As a result, they were completely blind to the real abominations and the real desolation it brings.

Matthew 23:37-38
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
  • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

It was the congregation that killed Christ. The congregation that killed the prophets. The congregation that stoned them that God had sent unto them. Thus it was their house that was left desolate by their abominations. Yes to this day, they do not SEE the abominations, nor recognize that they are left desolate and destitute spiritually because of it.

So when you say, "read your history." Just make sure it is your BIBLICAL history, and not the ramblings of secular historians and reprobates like Josephus.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Anne

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2008, 11:36:16 AM »
Luke 16:14-15
  • "And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
  • And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God[/i]."
The leaders of God's congregation hated hearing the truth about their abominations, their apostasy, and impending the fall of their house. And likewise, the leaders of the Lord's congregation today revile and deride those who come with these same truths. They also are the men of renown, those highly esteemed among men, but likewise are an abomination unto God. Just as Christ said the Scribes and Pharisees of the first advent were. They just didn't it! 

Tony,
 It is interesting the Dejavu that we find throughout the bible with todays church. The Mamon of unrighteousness, the justifying themselves, the church traditions, the unjust stewarts, the works doctrines, the clinging to the congregation organization, the rejection of the spiritual and on and on. Isn't their mistakes supposed to be for our learning? But it seems that people completely ignore the lessons in the bible. Or as you say, "they just don't get it". Man, that is so true! These are the abominations.

"Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god".
 Malachi 2:11

Idolatry in the Lord's house is the abomination. It's not outsiders, but those within.

Raybob

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2008, 03:17:58 PM »
Quote
Yes, the Church was an established body, with established leaders, some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors. Yes, that new Testament dispensation or age has been established.

I believe the true church began in the new testament but it seems the abomination began with the first group that had a man leading the meetings or services which would go all the way back to the when the RCC was instituted.  Yes, some are established as "pastors" but in modern times, the word "pastor" usually refers to a leader of a congregation.  Looking at the original Greek, the word for "pastor" was essentially "shepherd."  When I think of a shepherd, I think of someone that goes out and gets the lost sheep, not someone that stands on a stage behind a pulpit, telling the people what he thinks God is saying to him in His word.  To me, the 'man of sin' entered the temple back in the fourth century AD.

Raybob

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 03:41:41 PM »
2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

BUT  only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2008, 05:21:37 PM »
Quote
Yes, the Church was an established body, with established leaders, some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors. Yes, that new Testament dispensation or age has been established.

I believe the true church began in the new testament but it seems the abomination began with the first group that had a man leading the meetings or services which would go all the way back to the when the RCC was instituted.  Yes, some are established as "pastors" but in modern times, the word "pastor" usually refers to a leader of a congregation.  Looking at the original Greek, the word for "pastor" was essentially "shepherd."  When I think of a shepherd, I think of someone that goes out and gets the lost sheep, not someone that stands on a stage behind a pulpit, telling the people what he thinks God is saying to him in His word.  To me, the 'man of sin' entered the temple back in the fourth century AD.

Raybob

Sorry, in response the above:

There was abomination, iniquity and false teachings at work even in the beginning "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:" and " and even now already is it in the world." But God restrains its working until He is taken out of the church, then the wicked, the man of sin, the abomination of desolation shall be revealed.

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:


 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

BUT  only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Tony Warren

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2008, 05:55:54 PM »
>>>
I believe the true church began in the new testament but it seems the abomination began with the first group that had a man leading the meetings or services which would go all the way back to the when the RCC was instituted.
<<<

The first group that held services does not merely go back to the RCC. Nor did abomination begin with the Pope. The Abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is more far reaching than the RCC.

Daniel 8:13-14
  • "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
  • And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Clearly God isn't talking about the RCC in particular here.


Quote
>>>
Yes, some are established as "pastors" but in modern times, the word "pastor" usually refers to a leader of a congregation.
<<<

A pastor is a leader by definition. The pastor has the God given duty to not only feed the flock with God's word, but to pastor or lead them in the proper way. Which is the paths of righteousness. And when he doesn't, and he preaches his own brand of dogma, God has always judged them "AS LEADERS" more severely.

Jeremiah 23:21-22
  • "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
  • But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings."

Their job as God's Prophets and Pastors was to lead them in the correct way, and they failed miserably because they had forsaken Him to become false prophets. Even as the leaders of God's congregation today.


Quote
>>>
Looking at the original Greek, the word for "pastor" was essentially "shepherd."
<<<

Indeed. A shepherd leads the sheep. I.e., the sheep follow him. Even as Christ said of Himself, being the Good Shepherd. That doesn't mean we are to blindly follow the shepherds, bishops and teachers of the church, but circumspectly follow them. The pastors and teachers are assigned leaders of the Lord's flock to help guide them in the way they should go. As teachers, they are leaders with a higher responsibility. That is why they will be judged of God more severely! Because they have that added responsibility of guiding the flock in the right direction. A teacher, by definition, is a leader. The Apostle Paul was a leader, and when he talked and taught, people followed him. Because he was a faithful witness and ambassador for Christ.

2nd Thessallonians 3:9
  • "Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us."/li]
Folllow them, as they are Pastors, Shepherds and Leaders, our examples to follow and learn from.


Quote
>>>
 When I think of a shepherd, I think of someone that goes out and gets the lost sheep,
<<<

Yes, a good shepherd goes out to find the sheep, and he leads them to green pastures, and they follow him home. In that sense Christ is the only Good shepherd, and pastors are his appointed servants, messengers assigned to do the work of Christ on earth. Which includes faithfully keeping the sheep from wolves. Even wolves in sheeps clothing. They do that by teaching faithfully, not allowing them to fall into unfaithfulness and apostasy. At least in theory. Sadly, most of the leaders of the church today has abandoned that principle.


Quote
>>>
...not someone that stands on a stage behind a pulpit, telling the people what he thinks God is saying to him in His word.  To me, the 'man of sin' entered the temple back in the fourth century AD.

Raybob
<<<

Agreed. A Pastor is not sent to tell people what he thinks God is saying, He is sent to faithfully bear witness to the scripture of what God is saying. His job is testimony, not private interpretation. Any pastor that is not doing this, is simply not doing his job. That doesn't invalidate pastors or leaders or rulers of the church, their unfaithfulness invalidates them.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Raybob

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Re: Discerning the Abomination of Desolation
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 06:25:29 AM »
Quote
The first group that held services does not merely go back to the RCC. Nor did abomination begin with the Pope. The Abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is more far reaching than the RCC.

Thanks, Tony, for your detailed explanation.  Yes, I agree the RCC is not the mark of the end.  I believe Satan was kicked out of heaven and bound in chains at the cross and I know Satan will be/has been let loose for a little season.  I know that 'little season' can't go back as far as the 4th century AD but from every 'church' that I've been to or known of personally, I don't know of one of them that has been faithful to the true gospel.  I can't find any reference to any groups that held services in the new testament or other history before the RCC came into existence.  Also, I've never heard about or eve known about any 'church' that didn't hold the unbiblical doctrines of going to church, giving tithes and offerings, and keeping the sabbath.

Raybob

 


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