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Author Topic: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day  (Read 19063 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2006, 10:09:03 AM »
Stacia,

You have answered your own question. Yes it is correct.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dude

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2006, 02:36:19 PM »
Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them
Can any explain this.
Does this mean that many wanted to die in Christ but cannot as God cannot save them.I dont know whether any elect will be saved during the great tribulation.I know one thing that after God seals his elect then the great tribulation begins.
Let God have mercy on me as I know we are already in this time and so many professing christians lost.
O God have mercy

stacia

His mercy endureth forever. 

Some of your comment has me baffled  --  at first you don't know if  "any elect will be saved during the great tribulation" and then you claim to know one thing "that after God seals his elect then the great tribulation begins." I gotta believe at this point in my studies that the sealing has to do with the sealing of the Holy Spirit  --  that's when one of God's Elect is born again, right?  From what I've read, and it should be automatic understanding for all of us, JUDGEMENT DAY doesn't begin until all of God's Elect are sealed; it says so in Revelation 7 which doesn't have anything to do with connecting great tribulation with "winds".  The 144,000 are mentioned as being seen in heaven having come out of great tribulation when the winds don't do any damage  --  whatever they represent or do, spiritually or physically, I don't fully know.

 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

See:  "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."  So you can relax and continue with a God glorifying witness knowing that salvation will end when it ends and then JUDGEMENT DAY begins.  The churches are falling apart but the LIGHT OF THE WORLD continues to shine  --  not as bright as yesterday but shine it does today.  Spread the Word of hope, the GOOD NEWS!

Messenger

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2006, 01:59:28 AM »
Hello Stacia,

Quote
You said :Matthew 24
15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened
 Can anyone explain the above verses.
Also sabbath talks about rest.See verse 20 Jesus says pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:.This rest is for the elect isnt it? Can it be that after God has sealed his elect there will be no salvation in the great tribulation?
Why is the great tribulation different?See verse 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Expecting your views
God bless

This is another way God is telling us there is no more salvation when the GT comes upon us. The word for winter [5494] is used only six times in the NT.
 
Acts 27:20  And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest [5494] lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

 
Notice also that the sun and stars were not visible as we see in Rev.6 and the tempest (same as winter) had taken away all hope that they would be saved. They are going through a time when the hope of salvation is gone.
 
The word sabbath is the same one used for the seventh day when all God's people are to rest.
 
Exodus 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 
I find it interesting that God called the Babylonian captivity a time of sabbath.
 
2 Chronicles 36:21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
 
Since the Babylonian is a picture of the GT it is not surprising that God calls both a sabbath, when no work can be done because they are in desolation. This is also why Jesus said that the time (night) would come when no man can work.
 
John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
 

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
 


The day of salvation is limited and with the begining of GT the night comes and this day of salvation comes to an end.

But once the spiritual night comes, no man can work, it is a time of spiritual sabbath. Jesus is saying pray that your time of flight to God is not during the GT when there is no salvation.
 
Matthew 24:20-21  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Messenger


Messenger

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2006, 10:10:40 AM »
Hi Stacia, Eirk --

Daniel 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed. 

Here in Daniel it says to the time of the end.  So up to the very end, many will still be made white.  How plain can this be. 

We read in Revelation 7:13-14

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here in Revelaiton 7 we read that those whose robes were made WHITE were those who came out of "great tribulation".  So we know that this is speaking about those who will become saved to the time of the end, using the language of Daniel 11. 

No salvaiton continues in the corporate church.  We read this language in Jeremiah.  But outside the corporate church there is still a final harvest.  And that will continue to the end. 

Taro, you are mistaken.We must not make a doctrine by quoting one or 2 scriptures which at the first blush meaning seem to be in line with our theology but must see what the rest of the bible says about this.I too was deceived into thinking as you were and was very much part of a group who teaches multitudes will be saved in Great tribulation, but I thank God who opened my eyes  to see what I couldn't see before.Erik is a witness to my former position as I used to debate with him on this on his forum Tribulation Signs.

Consider these scriptures and study them and you will see that there cant be any possibility of people being saved as many people claims in Great Tribulation.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.


Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


He who is unjust will continue to be unjust till the end.This shows of no salvation during this time which was at hand and the time is come now.

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Christ will confirm His covenant with His elect for one week(the entire NT period) but in the midst of the week He will cause sacrifice and oblation to cease ie when the last of the elect is sealed Christs sacrifice will no longer be applied to any unsaved so that one could be saved at this time except for the elect cause His covenant with them is everlasting one.

Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


The transgressors will come to the full----No more salvation.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


The day of salvation was limited,therefore was this warning given to those who heard the word Today if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

There are many more scriptures which clearly show that there is no possibility of salvation IN Great Tribulation, that's why this GT is different and more severe than any other which has ever been on this earth.

Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


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Dude

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2006, 03:41:49 PM »
Hello Stacia,

Quote
You said :Matthew 24
15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened
 Can anyone explain the above verses.
Also sabbath talks about rest.See verse 20 Jesus says pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:.This rest is for the elect isnt it? Can it be that after God has sealed his elect there will be no salvation in the great tribulation?
Why is the great tribulation different?See verse 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Expecting your views
God bless

This is another way God is telling us there is no more salvation when the GT comes upon us. The word for winter [5494] is used only six times in the NT.
 
Acts 27:20  And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest [5494] lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

 
Notice also that the sun and stars were not visible as we see in Rev.6 and the tempest (same as winter) had taken away all hope that they would be saved. They are going through a time when the hope of salvation is gone.
 
The word sabbath is the same one used for the seventh day when all God's people are to rest.
 
Exodus 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 
I find it interesting that God called the Babylonian captivity a time of sabbath.
 
2 Chronicles 36:21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
 
Since the Babylonian is a picture of the GT it is not surprising that God calls both a sabbath, when no work can be done because they are in desolation. This is also why Jesus said that the time (night) would come when no man can work.
 
John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
 

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
 


The day of salvation is limited and with the begining of GT the night comes and this day of salvation comes to an end.

But once the spiritual night comes, no man can work, it is a time of spiritual sabbath. Jesus is saying pray that your time of flight to God is not during the GT when there is no salvation.
 
Matthew 24:20-21  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Messenger




Messenger

Look at this from the very beginning of your message:  Acts 27:20  And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest [5494] lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
 
Notice also that the sun and stars were not visible as we see in Rev.6 and the tempest (same as winter) had taken away all hope that they would be saved. They are going through a time when the hope of salvation is gone.
stop

Before we take a close and faithful look at what you've presented inorder to back up your claim that the Bible teaches that there will no longer be any possibility of salvation when great tribulation begins, here's a question for you from Luke 18:8  --   Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

With sincere concern for your eternal salvation, I'd really caution you not to follow in the footsteps of satan in bringing a false gospel by taking THE WORD OF GOD out of context inorder to build a bogus doctrine  --  as you'll recall, satan did exactly that at the end of the LORD'S tribulation in the desert after His baptism.  You have virtually done the same thing with Acts 27 which ends as follows:    44 And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land. 

If you are led to continue with bad news, using a verse out of context from Acts 27 isn't going to fool serious Bible students  -- no way!  So if you can, answer the question and then let's see if we can eliminate some other verses you've taken out of context to prove your point:  ...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?




 



Taro

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2006, 03:52:29 PM »
All (Messenger) --

2 Peter 3:15, "Account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the widson given unto him hath written unto you"

Faith Hope and Love.  

In this forum in this place there is NONE of these: There is no faith, there is no hope and there is no love.

The faith, is Christ, his faith that by hearing the Word of God the elect might have faith.

The Hope is not just the blessed hope we have in the Lord that he will complete our salvation -- The hope is also the promise we have for anyone who is still unsaved that they can still "hope and quitely wait for the salvation of the LORD".  Lamentation 3:26.

The Love is the reason God sent his son to this world.  For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son... The second greatest command is that we love our enemies as ourselves.  

A gospel that teaches there is no salvation has none of these (faith, hope, and love) therefore, there is no gospel in this kind of doctrine.  
 
Messenger, you need to consider that during the great tribulation within the churches there is no salvation (b/c Christ has abandoned them) -- that is where those verses you quoted apply.  But outside the control of the churches, there is still a great multitude that will become saved, and "they have washed their robes white and they come out of great tribulation"  

As long as this world continues that speaks to God's longsuffering.  Otherwise, this world would end.  (The context of 2 Peter 3 is the last day when God's wrath will be poured out upon the wicked of this world), but within these verse lie the hope that God's longsuffering is salvation!  

Read Matthew 24:22 again.  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened"  Those days here refer to the great tribulation.  We know that the GT will be in two parts.  What God is teaching here is that IF the GT were to continue without it being shortened No flesh would be saved!  The saved here has to mean saved in salvation, since the nature of the GT is that no one was becoming saved.  The fact that God shortened the GT (therefore we have it in two parts -- see also Jacob's great afflication) for the sake of the elects means that the nature of the GT would not continue all the way to the end, but that God would again save for the sake of the elects (those who were to become saved during the second part of the GT ==== and these are they who will come out of great tribulation).  

And what does the sake of the elects mean?  I think God wanted us to compare this with 1 Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they may also obtain SALVATION which is in Jesus with eternal glory."  

And all the verses which seem to indicate that there is no longer salvation, we can apply them to those who remain in the churches, hence God's command for us to come out of her.  

Erik Diamond

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2006, 07:58:38 PM »
Quote
Messenger, you need to consider that during the great tribulation within the churches there is no salvation (b/c Christ has abandoned them) -- that is where those verses you quoted apply.  But outside the control of the churches, there is still a great multitude that will become saved, and "they have washed their robes white and they come out of great tribulation"

Gee-whiz.  Didn't you know that the church has ALREADY went out into the world, saving people (making up of great multitude - symbolically 144,000) for the past 2,000 years WHILE Satan was bound! But when Satan was loosened, it means that God have already sealed ALL tribes of Israel (again, symbolically all gentiles coming from the ends of the world), REV 7, therefore, Salvation program has ended. 

The "latter rain' doctrine is unbiblically, because in order to save their version of great multitude, God would have to bound Satan again in the world so we can save people out there, even outside church, something that church already did for the past 2,000 years! You CAN'T save great multitude WHILE Satan is roaming freely in the world. Satan being able to sit in the temple of God does not mean that that world is open for us to save many many more people.

Mar 3:27  No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus Christ already bound Satan at the cross so the building of church can begin. They already went out into the world, spoiling Satan's goods (men to be saved).  But when God have finished sealing ALL of His people and Satan being released from bottomless pit, what made you think you can save great many people 'outside church' while Satan is deceiving the whole world?!?

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The purpose of binding Satan is that he cannot prevent church from saving people from the whole world, and she already have.  So why go out into the world (outside church) again if we already did in the first place?   Don't you see.... when Satan have released from bottomless pit, it means one thing. God have finished sealing all of his people and that He is about to judge church! After this, Second Coming! No where in the Bible tha says we will save great many more people 'again' during the Great Tribulation. 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ have made covenant with HIS PEOPLE for one week.  But sometime during the week, the sacrifice and oblation will cease (the end of salvation) and the abominations he shall make it desolate (church turned into abomiation of desolation).  EVEN UNTIL the consumation.  Where do you see in verse that states God will save  more people after sacrifice ceased and abomition of desolation?    No where!  The end of salvation and abomination of desolation will last until consummation.  God will not make new covenant with 'new group' of people outside church (your so called great multitude other than 144,000). 

Quote
Read Matthew 24:22 again.  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened"  Those days here refer to the great tribulation.  We know that the GT will be in two parts.  What God is teaching here is that IF the GT were to continue without it being shortened No flesh would be saved!  The saved here has to mean saved in salvation, since the nature of the GT is that no one was becoming saved.  The fact that God shortened the GT (therefore we have it in two parts -- see also Jacob's great afflication) for the sake of the elects means that the nature of the GT would not continue all the way to the end, but that God would again save for the sake of the elects (those who were to become saved during the second part of the GT ==== and these are they who will come out of great tribulation).


Yeah right!  It means that God must bound Satan again in order to save more elects after a period of GT, don't you think so? Can you find that in the bible?  All I see is that God bound Satan ONCE! 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Taro

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2006, 08:22:20 PM »
Erik,

Like I said, the verses you are coming with only apply to the churches.  Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations -- Gog and Magog are a picture of the NT churches.  Are you saying that God can only save his elects if Satan is bound?  What about before the cross?  Satan was not bound, yet God saved his children in the OT.  You see, you have to read this more carefully.  If God bound Satan so that the nations would not be deceived -- then how come during the time Satan was bound there were many nations in the world that still did not have the gospel (e.g. China)?  So we have to ask is God talking about "nations" as in the nations of the world?  Or is God talking about the corporate churches all over the world.  Once we understand that the nations in Revelation 20 are speaking about the churches, then we have haromony with the rest of the Bible.  God loosed Satan for the purpose of deceiving (2 Thess 2) those in the churches.  This deception is within the churches.  But outside there is a great multitude that will become saved -- for the sake of God's elects that is that they might also obtain salvation. 

Faith Hope and Love remain.  Account that the longsuffering of the Lord is SALVATION.  Amen. 

It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.


Dude

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2006, 08:37:19 PM »
Quote
Messenger, you need to consider that during the great tribulation within the churches there is no salvation (b/c Christ has abandoned them) -- that is where those verses you quoted apply.  But outside the control of the churches, there is still a great multitude that will become saved, and "they have washed their robes white and they come out of great tribulation"

Gee-whiz.  Didn't you know that the church has ALREADY went out into the world, saving people (making up of great multitude - symbolically 144,000) for the past 2,000 years WHILE Satan was bound! But when Satan was loosened, it means that God have already sealed ALL tribes of Israel (again, symbolically all gentiles coming from the ends of the world), REV 7, therefore, Salvation program has ended. 

The "latter rain' doctrine is unbiblically, because in order to save their version of great multitude, God would have to bound Satan again in the world so we can save people out there, even outside church, something that church already did for the past 2,000 years! You CAN'T save great multitude WHILE Satan is roaming freely in the world. Satan being able to sit in the temple of God does not mean that that world is open for us to save many many more people.

Mar 3:27  No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus Christ already bound Satan at the cross so the building of church can begin. They already went out into the world, spoiling Satan's goods (men to be saved).  But when God have finished sealing ALL of His people and Satan being released from bottomless pit, what made you think you can save great many people 'outside church' while Satan is deceiving the whole world?!?

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The purpose of binding Satan is that he cannot prevent church from saving people from the whole world, and she already have.  So why go out into the world (outside church) again if we already did in the first place?   Don't you see.... when Satan have released from bottomless pit, it means one thing. God have finished sealing all of his people and that He is about to judge church! After this, Second Coming! No where in the Bible tha says we will save great many more people 'again' during the Great Tribulation. 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ have made covenant with HIS PEOPLE for one week.  But sometime during the week, the sacrifice and oblation will cease (the end of salvation) and the abominations he shall make it desolate (church turned into abomiation of desolation).  EVEN UNTIL the consumation.  Where do you see in verse that states God will save  more people after sacrifice ceased and abomition of desolation?    No where!  The end of salvation and abomination of desolation will last until consummation.  God will not make new covenant with 'new group' of people outside church (your so called great multitude other than 144,000). 

Quote
Read Matthew 24:22 again.  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened"  Those days here refer to the great tribulation.  We know that the GT will be in two parts.  What God is teaching here is that IF the GT were to continue without it being shortened No flesh would be saved!  The saved here has to mean saved in salvation, since the nature of the GT is that no one was becoming saved.  The fact that God shortened the GT (therefore we have it in two parts -- see also Jacob's great afflication) for the sake of the elects means that the nature of the GT would not continue all the way to the end, but that God would again save for the sake of the elects (those who were to become saved during the second part of the GT ==== and these are they who will come out of great tribulation).


Yeah right!  It means that God must bound Satan again in order to save more elects after a period of GT, don't you think so? Can you find that in the bible?  All I see is that God bound Satan ONCE! 

Erik


Erik


Where did you get the idea that "Jesus Christ already bound Satan at the cross so the building of church can begin."?  The LORD'S church was being built long before the LORD'S crucifixion.  It's true that satan was bound but it had nothing to do with the church being built  -- unless satan's actions could affect the time line of God's salvation plan.  But to say that the LORD had to bind satan to build His church is another bogus conclusion coming from the bad news camp and limits the power of the LORD who was saving all sorts of people before His death and resurrection  --  you should know this automatically.  I'd be totally amazed if one single person agreed with you. FLABBERGASTED in fact!

Penne

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2006, 09:59:33 PM »
Matthew 12:29, "... how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The world was in Satan's (strong man) hands.  Jesus did indeed bound Satan so the church could be built.

Dude

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2006, 10:13:30 PM »
Matthew 12:29, "... how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The world was in Satan's (strong man) hands.  Jesus did indeed bound Satan so the church could be built.

Pene


"The world was in Satan's (strong man) hands.  Jesus did indeed bound Satan so the church could be built."  I've seen the passage that teaches about "The world was in Satan's (strong man) hands." --  kinda  --    But where do ya learn about the LORD not being able to build His church before He was sent to the cross?  So what can this dude say --  I am totally flabbergasted that there's TWO of you here who don't think the LORD was building His church while satan was running wild  --  FLABBERGASTED TO THE MAX INDEED. 

midas

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2006, 10:53:37 PM »
Maybe God was building his church in the OT times however it was a slow process, with not many people being saved- And then since Satan was bound at the cross and the Holy Spirit released, salvation exploded and thousdands and thousand were being saved.

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2006, 12:14:19 AM »
Taro, dude an others,

How can God add more souls to the Body of Christ when the Body of Christ is already completed at the fall of the external covenant church? I have explained this before:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

External covenant church or the corporate church is the shadow of eternal church. Thus even the ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher were shadow ministries of Christ Himself. All these ministries find their fulfillment in Christ when their purpose is solved. Read Eph 4:11-13 carefully. These ministries were given TILL ALL COME IN THE UNITY OF FAITH..........   In other words, these ministries were given to the external covenant church till all the elect would come to salvation, thus completing the Body of Christ. When the Body of Christ is complete, there is no more purpose for God to continue with external covenant church.

You claim that external covenant church (corporate church) has fallen but God continues to save people outside of the churches. This makes absolutely no sense. Don't you see that corporate church can fall only upon completion of the Body of Christ. Where will you fit in your great multitudes with the fall of the corporate church?



Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them

Dont' you realize that the testimony of believers unto salvation is over when Satan is loosed. How can again they will have a testimony?

Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

DSOUZAANTHONY


Erik Diamond

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2006, 12:16:17 AM »
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Like I said, the verses you are coming with only apply to the churches.  Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations -- Gog and Magog are a picture of the NT churches.  Are you saying that God can only save his elects if Satan is bound?  What about before the cross?  Satan was not bound, yet God saved his children in the OT.  You see, you have to read this more carefully.


I say that you need to read bible carefully.

Luk 4:5  And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6  And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luk 4:7  If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Satan took Jesus up to high mountain, showing all the kingdoms of the world. ALL, not some, but ALL, including Israel! Satan said that all the power and glory were delivered to him. Do you know when Satan had the power and glory of the world? At the fall of man, of course. Satan ruled the whole world.  Only a remanent of Israel is all God have for Himself until the Cross! While God deal with Moses, what happened to Indians that were barely moving into Alaska?  

When the cross came, what happened? Being bound and cast into bottomless pit, does it means that he suddenly stop rule over people whom God have never intended to save?  Of course not,  Satan still ruled the unsaved people (men without the seal of God) while God used the church to go out and save people whom God intended to be saved! What you believe is exactly what church have been doing for the past 2,000 years! They went out into nations, into remote parts of the world, bringing gospel to people to hear. Some did get saved, some expereince judgment.  They did it 'outside the church'!  You misunderstood how salvation works, nothing to do with literal building of churches! People can get saved without even see a literal church building before.  

When God see that he have 'sealed' the last Elect, he allowed Satan to be released from bottomless pit. Then what happened?  Did Satan get too busy with the church, only to leave the rest of the world open for us to save more people?  Nonsense! Listen...

Rev 11:1  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The temple, altar, and them that worship represents true believers. But the court which is without the temple represents the corproate part of the church (unsaved christians). The gentiles, outside the corporate church, are unbeliving world where Satan ALWAYS ruled, even if he was bound!  During the great tribulation (42 months) God allowed Satan and the gentiles to invade and conquer the court.  Tell me, what happened to the gentiles? or outside the court? Satan no longer rule gentiles?  

Satan will rule not only the churches but the whole world. There will be no salvation between the last Elect and the Second Coming when Satan.

Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty

enough said.

Erik


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Pray your Flight be not in Winter, neither on the Sabbath Day
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2006, 12:21:18 AM »
Quote
Dont' you realize that the testimony of believers unto salvation is over when Satan is loosed. How can again they will have a testimony?

Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

DSOUZAANTHONY

Right, read the next two verses:

Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27  And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

No where it says that there will be more salvation before judgment sit.  What dominion will Satan lose when it shall be taken? Church only or whole world? REmember Satan would have to be bound AGAIN if we can save more people outside church. They could not explain it.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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