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Author Topic: Did God Create Evil?  (Read 30493 times)

Fred

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2005, 12:56:04 PM »
If it is our free will which saves us, we don't need a Savior because we have saved ourselves. 
Jim 

I have started a new appropriate thread on this subject.

Reformer

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2005, 06:57:38 PM »
The image of God man was created in His perfection. And we lost that perfection in the garden with Adam as our head. Which is why we need a new headship in Christ to restore us to communion with God in perfection which only Christ can bring.

Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Only Christ can bring man to the image of God, the good that His creation was made in and fell from.

andreas

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2005, 08:56:54 PM »
The image of God in which our first parents were made consisted of knowledge.

That you may walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing,being fruitful in every good work,and increasing in the knowledge of God.  Col.1:10.

The image of God also consisted in righteousness,perfect conformity to the will of God,his will was straight with that of God's will. God made man upright, Ecc.7:29, and holiness,with affections pure and holy.

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph.4:24

All this was mutable.All was lost after the fall.Man became conformed to the world.

All that is in the world,the lust of the eyes the lust of the flesh ,and the pride of life. is not of the Father,but is of the world.1 John 2:16

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs diĘ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

dad1057

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2006, 09:18:11 PM »
How do we explain a verse like deut 2: 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.

acts 20:  24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Pilgrim

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2007, 03:18:13 PM »
Hermenutically speaking/ scripture interpreting scripture, how would one explain
Thanks


What Does God mean, I create Evil?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil.." -Isaiah 47:7. Some read these verses and claim that it means that God creates sin. Their problem is in knowledge of definition of the word evil. They erroneously surmise that evil is sin, but that is not the case. A frequently asked question.

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/did-god-create-evil.html

How do we explain a verse like deut 2: 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.


http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/pharaoh.html
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Fred

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2008, 09:09:33 PM »
Quote
quickly, to the claim that God has "free will":  Really?  Is God free to sin?  Is God free to change His character?  Is God free to do anything that is not quite perfect? 

Of course. He is free to do these things. But he doesn't do them because He is righteous. You ask is he free to do these things as if he is not. But God can do anything. But he doesn't do certain things because he is perfect.

Come on, free will is a given for man. And for God. But only Gods is perfect and will do no evil. I know most here believe in Predestination, but where is the actual evidence for a lack of free will by man or God?


andreas

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2008, 12:49:40 AM »
<<<But, quickly, to the claim that God has "free will":  Really?  Is God free to sin?  Is God free to change His character?  Is God free to do anything that is not quite perfect?  Is God free to do anything that does not work to glorify Himself perfectly?  Is God free to do anything that does not work for the good of His elect?  Rather, isn't it true that God must act according to His character which shall always remain the same?  Isn't that what it means to say that God does as He pleases?>>>

If you imply that God's will is not free, you seriously err.You ask, if God is free to sin,or is God free to change His character.He can not change His character for it is perfect ,and He can not sin,because sin,  is the absence of perfection, and since God is perfect He can not sin.The will of God is the only one which is absolutely free.It  is not determined by anything outside of Himself.  He wills what He does only because of His own sovereign pleasure.

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11.

And again,

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? 
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. 
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. 
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. Isa.40. 

No one can frustrate the  will of God. He gets exactly what He wants.

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?   Isa. 14.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Ephesians 1.

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Daniel 4.

Since God's will is  free, there can be no other free wills . If there were, God's will would not be free, and God would not be sovereign.All things  take place according to what He has purposed and determined to be done.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs diĘ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

dort2008

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2008, 02:32:52 AM »
God is free to act according to His character which has been and shall always remain the same.  If by this you wish to say that God's will is free, then by all means.  I certainly do not wish to argue semantics, a bigger waste of time I cannot imagine.

Fred

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2008, 08:16:33 AM »

So you admit that we have free will? Then why do you argue that man does not have free will but was predestinated according to election? You all are talking in riddles. God has free will to do what he wants, and man has free will. And that is why the call is made to alll men, so that people can come by their own free will or be condemned by it.


Penne

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2008, 11:32:40 AM »
So you admit that we have free will? Then why do you argue that man does not have free will but was predestinated according to election? You all are talking in riddles. God has free will to do what he wants, and man has free will. And that is why the call is made to alll men, so that people can come by their own free will or be condemned by it.





Predestination canít be argued against.  It is a fact straight from the word of God.  Those who are honest will see it for what it is.
Romans 8:29
  "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Romans 8:30
  "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Ephesians 1:5
  "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:11
  "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

All of these verses tell us God predestined many to be conformed to the image of Jesus.  To these many he called, justified, and glorified.  He did this all according to His good pleasure.  God did this according to His will, not yours or mine.

Really, does man have free will?  Did you choose to be born?  Did a cancer patient choose cancer?  Did Esau choose to be hated by God? 
Malachi 1:3
  "And I hated esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Romans 9:13
  "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but esau have I hated."

It may sound like many people here talk in riddles, but actually faithful and honest christian talk in truth.

 John 8:32
  "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Itís this truth of God that makes us free, we are no longer in bondage to sin.

John 8:36
  "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

And in this freedom we have became servants of righteousness and God.
Romans 6:18
  "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Romans 6:22
  "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Jesus often talked in parables.
Matthew 13:10
  "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"
Matthew 13:13
  "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Matthew 13:35
  "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

Understand there are many true and faithful Christians here who understand the mystery of the kingdom of God.  It is given to them by God to understand.
Mark 4:11g
  "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:"

It may appear that many here talk in riddles, but they really donĎt.  Instead, itís an understanding/freedom given to them by the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
  "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
1Corinthians 2:13
  "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Raybob

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2008, 04:34:30 AM »
Quote
So you admit that we have free will? Then why do you argue that man does not have free will but was predestinated according to election? You all are talking in riddles. God has free will to do what he wants, and man has free will. And that is why the call is made to alll men, so that people can come by their own free will or be condemned by it.

Fred, did you ever read John 1?

Joh 1:12-13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  (13)  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Fred

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2008, 04:17:43 PM »
Quote
So you admit that we have free will? Then why do you argue that man does not have free will but was predestinated according to election? You all are talking in riddles. God has free will to do what he wants, and man has free will. And that is why the call is made to alll men, so that people can come by their own free will or be condemned by it.

Fred, did you ever read John 1?

Joh 1:12-13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  (13)  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Yes, I read it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say "as many as received him"? That means they have to receive him, not that they are robots.

Penne

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2008, 04:40:21 PM »


Yes, I read it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say "as many as received him"? That means they have to receive him, not that they are robots.



John 3:27
  "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."



Matthew 11:5
  "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."
This verse doesnít tell us the blind chose sight or the lame chose to walk.  Itís Godís good pleasure to make the blind see, lame to walk, etc.

Receiving comes only from God and not of ourselves.

Matthew 19:11
  "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

Raybob

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2008, 05:52:31 PM »
Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say "as many as received him"? That means they have to receive him, not that they are robots.

Yes, it does but please finish the sentence.  Who's will is the one that lets them receive him?

Raybob

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2011, 04:07:10 PM »
I see no compelling reason to post a new topic, despite the red-letter warning.  :)  For one thing, the problem of "evil" is a very important one in from a gospel perspective alone.  This question is probably one of the top three objections most of us get from unbelievers when witnessing to them, is it not?  This alone makes this topic highly worthy of further discussion.  Perhaps, I can help add to many of the good thoughts that have been shared here in the past and raise some thought-provoking questions at the same time.

But before I get too far ahead of myself and in order for everyone to understand my foundational theological beliefs, I can say unabashedly that I'm a staunch believer in the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace, and believe just as strongly that Arminianism is a subtle but pernicious heresy that makes Man the final arbiter of his salvation -- that his "free will" is the ultimate determinant in his personal salvation.  This is nonsense!  Man is spiritually dead, not merely spiritually crippled.  The Spiritually Dead can no more will themselves to live anymore than Lazarus willed himself to have his soul reunited to his body so that he could physically walk out of his tomb.

My eschatology is oriented around Amillennialism and have actually read much of Tony's works.  However, I can't say that I'm in total agreement with everything he has written -- but that a discussion for another time.   :)

What I'd like to do is throw out one or two thoughts at a time because this is a meaty and tough topic.  So, here's thought Number One:

Freedom

The subject of God's "free will" has been broached, but I think its treatment was inadequate.  Does God have absolute free will TO ACT anyway he wants?  No, he does not!  God cannot sin.  God cannot lie.  God cannot create square circles.  God cannot do anything that is contradictory or absurd, etc.  Therefore, what we can conclude from this is that in terms of what God is free TO do, his is indeed limited in this respect.

But his will TO act is limited because he is absolutely free FROM Sin.  There is no Darkness in God.  There is no Evil in him. God is Good.  God is Love.  God is Righteous, etc.  This freedom FROM Sin, therefore, is precisely what limits his Acts.

So, then, we are confronted with a profound paradox.  In one sense, God does have absolute "free will" in terms of what his is free FROM; but in another sense, his free will is limited by his...by his....holy character.  He simply cannot act in any way that is contrary to this thrice holy character.

For example, someone said that God's law described his behavior.  I disagree with this.  God's law, I think, more accurately depicts or portrays his character -- what his is -- much more than what he does.  Let's face it:  What he does, how he acts is governed  by WHAT and WHO he is. 

uEvil: What is it?

I think to get a better handle of what Evil is, we have to think of it in terms of something more than the result of sin or the opposite of Good.  I think Evil is the absence of Good, just as Darkness is the absence of Light, or Cold is the absence of Heat, or Dryness is the absence of Moisture, etc., etc.  This is important to understand because if we can appreciate this, we can immediately realize that Evil cannot exist apart from Good.  Good can certainly exist without Evil.  Light can certainly exist apart from Darkness, etc.  But the reverse is not true or can ever be true.

In the Garden before the Fall, Adam was commanded to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil (Gen 2:9).  It is no accident that this Tree wasn't called the Tree of Good or the Tree of Evil.  It was a tree that symbolized the knowledge of both.  This makes sense.  One cannot have knowledge of Evil until knowing Good.  I believe Adam and Eve's knowledge of Good was superficial and they failed to appreciate it.  They only came to some level of appreciation after they sinned because they tried to hide their shame by covering their nakedness.  They actually felt guilt for for their sin which implies they had some real knowledge of Good at that point.  They realized that they had abandoned that which was Good in order to embrace that which wasn't (Evil).  In fact, they didn't even realize they were naked until after they sinned, according to God's question to Adam (Gen 3:11).

In the New Heavens and New Earth, Good and Evil will continue to co-exist -- just not in an integrated manner, as it is now in this world.  And Good will be elevated to the moral status of Righteousness in Heaven because all the saints were "tested" here in this world in Christ and found righteous by virtue of His righteousness.  Evil will exist for all eternity in Hell.  Evil will not be obliterated.  It will only be segregated from the presence of God and his Saints.  However, here is what is interesting:  In Heaven, I don't believe the saints will have any real knowledge of Evil any longer.  In our glorified bodies in Heaven, we will be separated from all Evil.  All our tears, even those that could be caused by memories of our lives here on Earth, will be wiped away, there will be no mourning, crying, death or pain.  All these negative experiences that are so closely connected to Sin and, therefore, Evil will be a thing of the past (Rev 21:7).

I will stop here to see what others of you can add or object to.  Then I'd like to build some more on these thoughts by asking questions that I think are even more foundational to this Problem of Evil.  I think these questions have to be answered first if we have any hopes of even  a cursory understanding of the "why" behind Evil.

Doran

 


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