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Author Topic: Should We Spank Our Children  (Read 62947 times)

jlkjr

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2003, 08:27:51 AM »
Dan, Dana, And Doug,
Since Glenda did so fine a job with her scriptural proofs, I don't think it necessary to be redundant. You seem to be confused with the concept of discipline as opposed to abuse. Biblical discipline is done out of love for the child in a way that God mandates. It is never done in anger or in an abusive manner. God, the Creator knows how to deal with his creation.  This may be a "new day", but human nature is unchanged since the fall of Adam.  The wisdom of God continues to be foolishness to man.

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2003, 10:12:14 AM »
Dan,
You ask why there are so many troubled children in our world? The answer should be obvious from the testimony of the scriptures. This world is sin cursed. It is the outworking of sin which causes much of what we see. I pray you will put aside your own understanding and recieve the Word of God as your only authority. If God has saved a child they will have a desire to be obedient to God and their parents. The world and it's many voices will try to lead astray God's people, but the sheep will only listen to God and His Word. What I think about "spanking" or "not spanking" does not matter. The only thing that matters is what God instructs me to do. He tells me "be not soon angry". I am not to lash out at anyone. What you are trying to compare are two different views into one package, with NO Biblical basis. If you feel so strongly and can show your position from the Word of God then we who seek to be Biblically minded will listen...until then I do not think we will understand each other. May God have mercy on us all.
Jen

Peng Bao

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2003, 04:33:57 AM »
Why are so many of you so unnecessarily defensive about the "judicious" use of spanking? Some of you seem almost apologetic about doing it God's way. You shouldn't be timid and defensive about your hitting your child when they need correction. Christian parents have a responsibility to discipline their kids, and spanking is a very important part of bringing up a child in Godly love.

"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." Proverbs 19:18-

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." -Proverbs 22:6

Despite what the "experts" say, God is still the best authority on rearing Godly children. In China, we have a tradition of being stern on our children and it seems strange that there would even be this debate by conservative Christians. Who are these "experts" and how does one become an "expert" with respect to child raising? You would think that before they came along, the world didn't survive and children were all murderers and violent criminals. That line is so not true. If we ignore the word of God and our parental instincts, the problems we see with children today can only get worse.

I can't think of a better way to show our children that we love them, and to teach them responsibility and accountability. That's what's missing in the world today. Accountability. And more than that, when done with explanation it gives them security knowing that the parent cares about them and only does it for their benefit. They may not understand it all right away, but you can be very sure that if you raise them right and teach them correctly, they will thank you for it when they are old enough to understand.

Sue Landow

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2003, 07:52:15 AM »
I wish you guys on this site could instruct other christians on parenting because not a lot hold to your views. I have to commend you for remaining faithful to biblical precepts. What you are saying requires a common sense approach to scripture, christian effort, and often personal sacrifice. And these are all things which are not really PC these days.

The modern parents we have today have created a lot of the the problems by allowing their progeny to get out of control. Even many christian parents have reneged on their christian obligation to discipline and biblically train their offspring.

I grew up in the generation before the Dr. Spock books which helped to tear down parental responsibility in discipline. But I don't know if you all are aware that even Dr. Spock admitted he was wrong about that before he died. Unfortunately, the damage had already been done. Isn't that how it often is in life.
"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

Christ_Alone

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2003, 01:56:34 PM »
I just read an article about spanking children, and I don't think that I am in agreement with it. Beating children has never been the answer to discipline. There are many great books which prove this. Children need to be loved. The old saying that you get more bees with honey than with vinegar still holds true.

What do you are think about this subject? Are we making our children into monsters by beating them? It seems those who beat their children, their children grow up violent and disjointed and troubled. I hear about it on the news all the time. We need to find better ways to discipline our kids instead of violence.


I haven't read the replies to this, so if I'm repeating something someone else has already said, just ignore it.

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. Assuming that spanking, is the same as beating, is one of the most common misunderstandings folks have, about physical discipline.

In my chat room the other day, we were discussing this very topic.  It was the general consesus among all there (all present were over 30 years of age), that most people our age and older, grew up getting spanked, when we deserved it.  And most of us, turned out just fine.

On the other hand, the generation after us, that grew up being brainwashed that spanking is beating, or somehow abusive, those people (and their children) are the ones with major issues about right and wrong (i.e., there are no lines, they do as they please).

Granted, not all unspanked people turn out to be like this, but from what I've observed, and from the general agreement in the chat room the other night, most have.

Comparing that to, the "monsters" that came from a childhood of spankings?  I dont know, I'd say most folks who turn out to be "monsters", would be, no matter how they were raised.

Tough subject... but I do believe physical discipline is supported by the Scriptures, and I know folks who I know personally, who were spanked as kids, all say they deserved it, and all still love and respect their parents a great deal.  No monsters in my circle of friends, and they all got it, when they earned it.
In His love... CA

Drew

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2003, 06:50:54 PM »

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. it.


Careful what you say, lest you be found to contradict your own premise of doing as God commands. The bible doesn't use the word spanking, that's a new word of modern times. God speaks of beating or hitting the child with a rod or a slim stick. And when you get right down to it, spanking is beating. Check your dictionary. If I take my hand and hit my child on his bottom, I have beaten him on his bottom. These word games just don't work because the scriptures obviously speak of beating kids who deserve it. parents did it routinely 30 years ago.

Unless you're going to tell me times have changed and so the bible has also.

Christ_Alone

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2003, 07:38:54 PM »

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. it.


Careful what you say, lest you be found to contradict your own premise of doing as God commands. The bible doesn't use the word spanking, that's a new word of modern times. God speaks of beating or hitting the child with a rod or a slim stick. And when you get right down to it, spanking is beating. Check your dictionary. If I take my hand and hit my child on his bottom, I have beaten him on his bottom. These word games just don't work because the scriptures obviously speak of beating kids who deserve it. parents did it routinely 30 years ago.

Unless you're going to tell me times have changed and so the bible has also.


Let's be blunt, shall we?

Where the Scriptures speak to physically discipling your child, they do not condone or even suggest, abusing your child - which is in fact what most people picture in their mind, when they hear of a "beating".

Let's see a comparison chart:

Bible: Pr 23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

beatest: Hebrew word nakah
definition (in this context): to strike, to chastise

This verse, and the usage of this word, in this verse (and there are many which have already been posted), never once suggests to parents, to abuse their child.

Modern society: "If you spank your kid you are beating him!"

beating (Merriam Webster):
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : an act of striking with repeated blows so as to injure or damage

When a parent swats a kid on his backside, it is NOT to injure or damage him - that constitutes abuse, and a sick and twisted desire on the part of the parent, to hurt his own kid.

Do spankings hurt? Sure they do, they're supposed to smart, and make the kid remember the consequences for wrong actions.  But are they supposed to injure, or damage the child? NO.

As a mother of 7 children, from ages 20 down to 2 months, and as a person who grew up getting spanked when she earned it, I do know a little of what I'm talking about. My children are my heart, and the last thing in the world I want for any of them, is pain, in any form.  Regardless, there are times when they've crossed the line, and earned for themselves the consequence of a spanking.

God has layed down the best pattern for this, in His word.  Folks can play word-games all they like, but the fact of the matter is, even God chastens those He loves - and better to be chastened by your earthly parents in love, and learn a healthy respect for authority, than to find yourselves in the hands of an angry God.

In His love... CA

Kyle

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2003, 06:14:42 AM »
Beating is a word that's been warped by society to mean child abuse. But beatings are not child abuse. I was beaten with a belt as a child by my father and today I thank God for that. It's the only thing that kept me out of prison like the rest of my hoodlum friends. I know it was really God directing him to discipline me. It showed he cared. My friends parents didn't care whether they stayed out until 2 am and came home with stollen goods. It all makes a big difference when you have discipline.

I have numerous times seen small children calling the shots in public with their passive and beaten-down parents. I have stood in super markets and watched these parents going out of their way to placate their rebellious and misbehaving kids with what can only be described as them pathetically begging them to nehave, or offering them bribes such as buying them something.

One day there was this child who was whining, running up and down the aisles and deliberately bumping into other shoppers with the cart. The mother whispers "okay sweetie, be good now" or "honey, now please be quiet and stop bumping into people for mommy." This nonsense went on for at least five minutes straight. She ended up bribing the child by buying him candy, and then potato chips as he started acting up again.

This is the result of a generation that will not discipline their kids when they need it. They have abandoned the biblical principles and the fruit of this is seen all over this country.

Christ_Alone

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2003, 11:31:16 AM »
Hi Kyle,

I read your post and had to laugh... not really because what you describe is funny, but because it's so ironic.

Everything you say, is dead on.  How many of us have seen these same kids in the grocery store, or at the park, or anywhere in public, acting like the classic BRAT?  And the parents always react the same way, pleading with their kids to hush, or be good, or settle down.

And then... these same parents always say the same things... "I dont know how to get thru to him" or "I just can't seem to settle him down".

When I was a kid, 30 years ago, and I went out in public with my mom, not only did we not dare scream and yell for the spaghetti-o's, instead of the choice she made for our lunch, most people my age now, as kids, never even considered screaming and yelling.  We were better kids, smarter, or somehow more angelic, than the kids today?

No... we were unregenerate little people - just like the kids today, but the huge difference is, we knew where the line was, we were taught respect for our parents, and we (for the most part) did what we were told.  Sure there was always that 1 kid that we all knew, who did all the really dangerous stuff, like yell at his mom (then run before dad got home) or stole the candy from the corner store, but this kid was the exception to the rule, most of us sinned vicariously  ;) through that 1 kid we all knew, we didn't dare do the stuff he was doing.

Now?  The opposite is true.  In any age group of kids, the kids that are well-mannered and polite in public, that hardly ever get into trouble, that are the GOOD example in the group, they're few and far between.

Some months back, my husband and I were in the grocery store, and there was a little boy, maybe 2, there with his mother (we assume she was the mom)... anyway, this kid and his mom were about 2-3 aisles over, and we could hear this kid screaming something.  I dont know what he was saying, he was just very loud.  We heard them all the way through the store, and finally by the time we were almost done shopping, they were in the same aisle as us.  He yelled something again, then got a huge smile on his face as his mom smiled back at hime and "hushed" him.  He was a really cute kid, and I mentioned to Kev (my husband) how cute the kid with the loudmouth was.  

Kev says "cute!?! did you hear what that kid was saying!?!" I didn't, I wasn't really paying attention.  I listened to him again, and what he had been screaming through the store the whole time was "f___ you!!"

Honestly, I wanted to throw up.  It blew me away.  Our own son is about the same age as that kid, and it just rocked my boat to hear another little boy, saying that - not to mention, the mom, condoning it.

I wont even go into my thoughts and my husband's thoughts, on proper discipline for the MOTHER...

But this is the kind of thing that goes on, and then 15 years down the road, this is the mother sniveling and crying to someone about what a rotten brat her adorable son turned out to be.  DUH... hello?  

Raising kids isn't a game, and we're not given children so that we can be their "friends".  Sure it's great to have a close relationship with your kids, so that when they need to trust someone and get honest, reliable answers, they can come to you - but they have friends, they need PARENTS.

They need people willing to sacrifice their time, their heart, their money, their good night's sleep, the last cookie, and yes, the smack on the hand, or the swat on the hind end, when need be.

All anyone has to do, is take a hard look at society today, to see the difference in the lack of respect that young people have for their elders, and ask "what is different about this generation?"

The next time you're driving down the street, and a kid of around 10-12 years old, is crossing the street in front of you, slowly, slouching, staring at you, with an "I'll take my sweet time crossing this road" look on his face (you know who I'm talking about, you've seen these kids), you can bet, that kid's parents are either busy with their jobs - or just so want to be his "friend" that they can't be bothered to properly discipline him.

Kev and I have talked about this so many times.  He commented that when we were kids, if we dared do that, the guy driving would stop, get out, swat the kid's hind end, take him home to his mother, and then she'd swat the kid's hind end, and demand he apologize to the neighbor.

Thing is, we didn't DO that kind of thing when we were kids.  What was different?

Respect for authority - fear of getting spanked - and knowing there was a line that we had no business crossing.

Kids today, by and large, do not have this in their lives.  

Ugh... just a few thoughts, by a parent who desires to be a friend to my children, but knows it's more important to be their PARENT, first.
In His love... CA

Jeff

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2003, 05:56:36 AM »
I know exactly what you mean. At restaurants, I have seen children throw temper tantrums simply because the parent (and I use the term loosely) said that there are no hot dogs on the menu, or because the food took too long in coming. It has really become very hard to have a decent experience in a restaurant because of these bad, undisciplined and uncontrollable kids.

And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public? Could it be that children out of wedlock and the rising divorce rate also plays a part in the lack of discipline with children? The fall into sins of fornication and divorce. It all gets back to the breaking of God's laws.

John

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2003, 06:36:32 PM »
And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public?

Underlying the anti-spanking movement, I think, is a rebellion against acknowledging and discerning right from wrong. If anyone enforces a moral code then they must likewise be subjected to the same code. If there are no moral absolutes then spanking is superfluous and illogical.

Since each fallen person secretly views themselves as the rightful ruler of their world -- there cannot be a greater God than themselves. They become in their prideful conceit their own god; a god that can never do wrong or be subjugated. Whatever their inner-man believes to be right -- is right, because whatever a god does must, logically, be proper and right.

When a child exhibits the same expression of ego, the parent can only sympathize and condone it, how can it be corrected? To correct the child is to admit my 'god' is mutable and needing of correction. Even worse, if the child exhibits a moral code (Biblical or not) then the parent is reminded that they are wrong by comparison. The most detestable morality anyone can exhibit is one that is subject to a single, authoritative, creator God -- this is every fallen persons archenemy and ultimate fear.

Losing the war against God is to see yourself as wrong, destroying your godhood, and bringing on an avalanche of guilt and pain for being wrong. The pain of realization is too painful; so it must be avoided at all costs -- even to the point of believing absurd and contradictory 'truths' in the face of reality.

Lastly, a moral child will be seductively corrupted by the parent to remove the 'offense' of innocence seen in the childís desire to be honest, moral, caring, or helpful. The child is subtly taught by the parent and the amoral world that wrong is right and right wrong. Truth is taught as a lie, and soon the child rebels at the hypocrisy. To the Christian witnessing rebellion in the supermarket we think 'spanking'.

But soon the rebellion is over; the child gives in and accepts the world. His youthful innocence lost suffering from the guilt of being wrong for believing wrongly, he finds acceptance in his wrong by his parents and society. He is now a good citizen properly obedient to himself, his parents, and others like himself.

There is one more thing. The child continually needs to remove the awareness of wrong, to silence the conscience and end the nagging pain of guilt. Soon, in steps a person more evil than himself to reassure him all is good. This person may be a wife, politician, activist, minister, etc., someone who can support his godhood worldview. Like an addict, he finds however that he needs this person desperately and without him/her he feels like nothing. The pain comes back and he feels like he is dying inside (romantic love is a case in point).  Unbeknownst to him, he is bound by this need to his master. He seeks the absence of pain, which he calls 'pleasure'.

Objects can also become means to turn the focus away from the inner turmoil. The next kick is the next purchase, the next drug, the next consuming desire --wine, women and song. Religion may replace any of these tyrants. Allegiance is switched from object to object, but never to God.

Spanking a child, unless it is done in anger borne out of impatience by a little god who is failing to control its world, is seen through their eyes as a torturous beating. Like a demon screaming in pain before Christ, the mere thought of a Sovereign moral order scares fallen man -- more than death itself. Even death by suicide is preferred, much better than facing the reality of our sin and acknowledging God. Thus, all mankind is together become unprofitable.

In conclusion, some unregenerate parents do spank and seemingly are not motivated by anything near what I've written above. They appear decent moral people. However, their heart is desperately wicked. While you may spank because sin is abhorrent to you, for them the reason is different. The overriding motivation is pride. Pride motivates parents to try and raise well-ordered 'good' children. They want to be seen by others as 'good' (what else could they be). They spank when they are embarrassed, saying, "how could you do that to me". Whatever the reason, it is not done in love. Only a child of God is capable of loving, and that by the grace of God. Do not fool yourself on that point. Apart from God living in you to will and do His good pleasure, you would do no different. And thus, you are able to understand their situation and forgive them.

There are lusts, needs, wants, emotional attachments etc., in fallen man, but not an ounce of love to give. It may be the kind of love the world gives and knows, but it is not from God. If you are a true Christian, then you will spank your child, in love, and deliver his soul from hell. If you are not, you will subtly encourage the same wrongs that exist in you, spanking only when there is gain for your inflated, pride-filled ego. Such are the two kingdoms divided.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Sojourner

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2003, 11:56:24 AM »
Personally, I have given both my children a wack on the behind when it is warranted and it doesn't matter the time or place. They have come to know that they are never safe from punishment, and I think that this is the way it should be. So now I don't have to spank them because they know they'll get it and they behave.

When my child was small, we were in a restaurant a few years back, and when my child began to misbehave with no intent on listening to me, I took him to the car for an old-fashioned spanking. I think christian parents should have very little tolerance for misbehaving children in public places. When I got home, he spent the rest of the day cleaning the yard and sitting at the table, and helping in the kitchen. I let it be known to him that I was only doing this for his benefit and that I loved him, and he has now got the picture.

Now that they are older, spanking is not necessary. They now show respect for their parents as well as all elders, which spanking, along with biblical instruction, instilled in them. You should understand, when a child is this age, an hour in a corner seems like an eternity. It is a long, long time before he misbehaves again.

Now I know in today's politically correct world liberal christians will call that cruel and unusual punishment, but I follow God not society. My children are so well-behaved now, and so understanding of how I love them, that I am constantly getting compliments about them from others in public. That of course is not my motive, but a testimony to God's way being the best way to raise children.


Colleen

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2003, 03:31:25 AM »
Part of the problem is so many single mothers. Single mothers are just not able to threaten their older boys with physical punishment. And it just won't work anyway.

Christian parents have got to stay together in order to maintain a family atmosphere and consistent set of boundaries for their children. There needs to be a father and mother family relationship. When one parent is suddenly gone because of divorce or separation, and it's the father who is usually the one who administers the spankings, children tend to revert to a "NO RULES MAN" attitude. IMO. There is a 50 percent divorce rate, and that's a lot of single parent households.

He_Leadeth_Me

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2004, 05:39:27 PM »
Quote from: john
And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public?

Underlying the anti-spanking movement, I think, is a rebellion against acknowledging and discerning right from wrong. If anyone enforces a moral code then they must likewise be subjected to the same code. If there are no moral absolutes then spanking is superfluous and illogical.
Quote

Iím sorry that I have to confront you. But when you are public, you donít know a single mother from a married mother.

Second, enforcing a moral code does not have to involve spanking. The code of morality is generally taught to children as they gain an understanding of their native language. You explain what is proper and what isnít and tell them what the rules and consequences are.

Then there is the problem of a parent who chooses to spank, who assumes that only non-Christians donít spank. This isnít true. There are Christians who donít spank. Their views about the Trinity, salvation, and other doctrines might be the same as yours.

There is also the problem of assuming that kids who misbehave in public arenít spanked. This isnít true. Itís a possibility, but it can never be a given. Sometimes children get cranky because they missed their nap. Sometimes they sass and misbehave because the parents are inconsistent with their discipline. Sometimes negative behavior is the only way they can ever get their dis-interested parentís attention.

If you spank your child in angerĖmany parents doóyou are not teaching him to respect you. God expects you to teach him respect for authority.

If you spank your child only when you think you must, and when he is old enough to have a time out, you use that as an enforcement, he may not even remember spankings, but he will still know who is in charge.

If you spank in anger, and spank harder if he tells you, ďIt didnít hurt,Ē or ďI hate you,Ē you arenít teaching him respect, you are teaching him that the stronger person wins. Heíll be waiting for the day that he is the stronger person.

When my daughter was young, she sassed my MIL. I made her sit on a chair for about fifteen minutes and then told her she could get down when she apologized. Her grandmother was a ďgrab the yardstick and beat ĎemĒ disciplinarian, yet she was impressed that I didnít tolerate that kind of behavior from a five- or six-year-old.

Parenting Styles:
Parents who are responsive but not at all demanding
are permissive.

Parents who are equally responsive and demanding
are authoritative.

Parents who are demanding but not very responsive
are autocratic.

Parents who are neither demanding nor responsive
are unengaged.

I, personally, think the authoritative style is best. You have to have a healthy balance. This style of discipline may or may not include spanking.


When I approach a child, he inspires in me two sentiments: Tenderness for what he is, and respect for what he may become.--- Louis Pasteur

Children are wet cement. ó Anne Ortlund
His faithful follower I would be,
For by His hand He leadeth me.
----Joseph H. Gilmore

Diane Moody

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2004, 03:10:09 AM »
Quote
You explain what is proper and what isnít and tell them what the rules and consequences are.

Great. That always works :(
Sounds like you are another of the post-modernist adversaries of the bible preaching the gospel of "time out".

It doesn't really matter how many children you've got or raised or think you know about. It sounds to me like you've been watching too much television or listening to to many psychologists, instead of watching the horrible situation that views like yours have placed children into, and listening to the word of God. Worldly philosophies do not move biblical christians, obedience to God's instruction does. You can write your own bible if you like, but don't try and get biblical christians to swallow this world's philosophies.

 Prv. 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

 Prv. 19:18  Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

 Prv. 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Your view is fine if you take the bible as nothing but scrap paper to trample under foot, as has become the comon practice today. But for bible believers, your philosophy is carnal, unbiblical, and a bold faced contradiction to what God has stated about children, their punishment, and it's effects on them. So who should we believe? You, your psychologists, or God?


 


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