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Author Topic: Should We Spank Our Children  (Read 62986 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #180 on: September 15, 2014, 02:42:51 AM »
>>>
So let me see if I have this correct bram. You're saying that when Christ says don't harm or offend children, he's not really talking about children, so we can harm or offend them? You're saying God allows the beating of children?
<<<

Sure he's talking about children. God's word means exactly what it says. But He's talking about the children of God, which are all believers. Not necessarily kids or the very young.

Isaiah 55:8-9
  • "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
  • For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

God's understanding, thoughts and ways are not always the same as man's. His definition of Jews, Serpents, Olive Trees, Sheep, Scorpions, Stones, Ancients and yes, Children, is not the same as Webster's dictionary. We are children because we are born of God and He is our Father.

1st John 5:1-2
  • "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
  • By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

So that when God calls us His children, His thoughts concerning children are not the same as those of carnal or natural man who will automatically think of little kids. Just as when God speaks of the children of Israel, He's not addressing the people as kids or the youth, but as a "family" with Him being their Spiritual Father. This is quite obviously true. Thus to say when God says children, He must be clearly speaking of little kids, is spurious at best. God could be talking about anything from the people of Satan to the family of believers.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #181 on: September 15, 2014, 02:46:11 AM »
>>>
I'm just wondering if the government should be getting involved in parents spanking or switching their kids.
<<<

No they shouldn't (unless someone is abusing children), but they are. This is because of the social engineers putting forth their worldly agendas. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the word of God changes just because society and modern mores and belief systems change. Nor should the church follow suit with compromise and/or nullification of God's word. But the wisdom of the world is more and more becoming the wisdom of the church, where God's instructions are considered unwise, and even worse, wrong.

Proverbs 29:15
  • "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

We've turned away from the wisdom of God, and as a result are children more respectful, more conscientious, more honoring to parents, more honest and noble? Only in the minds of carnal/worldly men they are. So where is the true wisdom? Is it found in the words of men, or in the words of the living God that I quoted above?


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>>>
I don't know anything about the case except what I read, but isn't this opening a pandora's box where pretty soon no spanking at all will be allowed?
<<<

The box has already been opened. We're pretty much already at the point where any spanking of children might earn you a trip to child welfare services or even the police department, depending upon where you live and who knows about it. Nevertheless, spanking is not child abuse, never has been and never will be, despite any rules and laws that men might come up with declaring it so.


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>>>
Or maybe I'm wrong and some of you agree with it. I am just curious to know what you all think?
<<<

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure there are a ton of professing Christians who have succumbed to worldly philosophies of child rearing. Personally, I agree with you that it's the government overstepping its responsibilities. Just as it did in declaring that abortion was not murder and that if we forbid marriage between men with men and women with women, it is a criminal act. Nevertheless, we carry on holding high the banner of truth, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among we are commissioned to shine as lights in the darkness of the world. As indeed the Apostle declared:

Philippians 2:16-17
  • "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
  • Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #182 on: September 15, 2014, 02:49:40 AM »
>>>
This thread should be deleted because it encourages child abuse.
<<<

On the contrary, it is a witness of the Scriptures destroying any notion that physical correction of children is abuse of a child--if we will receive it. Far from being deleted, hopefully it will remain here for years to come as a testimony against unfaithfulness, twisting of scripture, deceit and dishonesty.

Isaiah 30:10
  • "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

It is the carnal man that wants God's word removed from society, deleted, hidden, twisted, re-interpreted and taught to "mean" something that it doesn't say. It is the Spiritual man that has an earnest desire to keep (guard from loss) the word and to do the will of God, rather than their own.


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>>>
You can't find justification for beating children anywhere in the bible.
<<<

This is getting redundant here but...

Proverbs 23:13-14
  • "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  • Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

God's unadulterated Word is all the justification that REAL Bible believing Christians need. Moreover, your idea of beating (the contemporary idea) is not what the Biblical word means, which is a stroke. The Biblical word translated beat is the Hebrew word [nakah] and simply means to strike. Whether it's savagely and maliciously or Biblically and appropriately, you would have to add additional words as qualifiers. Your understanding of the word beat in the Bible is very different from Christians who should never beat their children savagely or with malice.


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>>>
And don't give me that spare the rod passage because that's your interpretation of the verse.
<<<

Why Not? Because you don't like what the passage actually declares? We really aren't giving you anything, we are simply bearing witness, or if you will "giving testimony" to what God Said. We aren't giving you anything, this is what God has given to us all.

Proverbs 13:24
  • "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

No private interpretation on my part or your part is necessary. God specifically addresses the question of those who would spare the rod declaring these are those who don't really "love" that child, while illustrating that He who uses it for correction of his son "do love" the child. That's not Tony, Reformer or others who have borne witness to it. That's God speaking. Now the only reason that anyone would want to privately interpret that as not speaking about physical correction in love, is if they didn't really like what it unambiguously says. That wouldn't be me, that would be you, as delineated in your comment "don't give me that spare the rod passage,"


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #183 on: September 15, 2014, 02:52:40 AM »
>>>
There's nothing worse than abusing a child,
<<<

Well, there are few things worse. That's why Christians would never abuse their children. The problem in some cases is that most people seldom know the difference between wrong and right because they have no source of truth but themselves.

Proverbs 22:15
  • "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

The key word here is correction, but unfortunately few know the difference between cruelty and discipline, corporal punishment and injurious punishment, mistreatment and chastisement, abuse and correction. What they do is go by feelings, rather than God's word or intelligence. Their disdain for physical correction is a product not of love, but of the times, emotion and their own vanity.

Proverbs 19:18
  • "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

Of course, as we've seen time and time again, none of God's word that I'm quoting "word for word" actually means anything to anyone who does not actually look at Him as LORD of their lives. To have someone as your Lord means they are your king or your ruler, your manager, your commander, your master or our common word Boss! If you are going to be your own king and your own Lord, then you set yourself up as your own god, where you make up your own rules and are your own master who judges by what seems right in your own eyes. Nothing new there since the man of sin (man of lawlessness) has been around since Cain slew Able.


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>>>
I find it hard to believe that anyone would approve of beating children, except maybe Tony, Reformer and a few other religious fanatics.
<<<

I guess we're in good company then, as you can add God to that list.

Proverbs 23:12-14
  • "Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
  • Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  • Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Like I said, it all depends upon whose image you are conformed to, and who is Lord of your life. The Image or likeness of carnality or the image or likeness of the Spirit of the Lord. Conformed to the Image of the beast or of Christ. the Man of sin or the man of righteousness. Because we all can rationalize away what the word of God unambiguously says, but those led by God's Spirit will not.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Stephanie

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #184 on: September 15, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »
Proverbs 13:24

    "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."


No private interpretation on my part or your part is necessary. God specifically addresses the question of those who would spare the rod as those who don't really "love" that child, while illustrating that He who uses it for correction of his son does.

So you are saying that Christians who don't beat their children don't love their children?


Stephanie

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #185 on: September 15, 2014, 10:39:30 AM »
Neither do you fear God.

This of course is a tired debate, just do a search on this forum.  I see no end to it ... either you trust God and His word or you follow the latest research from psychologists that shows spanking to be detrimental to the well-being of children. Obviously the anti-corporal punishment types are dishonest by labeling spanking as "beating".

Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)

Your response just goes to show how you always make these vast generalizations in your posts lumping everyone who disagrees with you into a certain disparaging category, whether they belong there or not. I know what beating is and I know what you are attempting to do by claiming hitting children with a rod is not beating them. And you call me and other anti corporal punishment types dishonest?




Soldier

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2014, 12:19:00 PM »
Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)


It is beating or hitting in order to cause pain and discomfort, but it's not abuse. Not according to God. I received a few beatings as a child. Mine was with a belt by my father.  I deserved them and I'm a better person today because of them. That's something that you liberals cannot understand because you don't believe the truth of the word that has been quoted to you many times.  You obviously think God is stupid to have written such things. You need to check yourself.


John

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #187 on: September 18, 2014, 01:00:25 AM »
Quote
Your response just goes to show how you always make these vast generalizations in your posts lumping everyone who disagrees with you into a certain disparaging category, whether they belong there or not.

You mean lumping everyone you disagree with into a disparaging category using vast generalization like, oh let's see ... describing all Christians as people that enjoy "beating" their children? You mean like that?

As Tony mentioned, the modern day meaning of "beating" carries huge negative connotations, while spanking does not. Thus, the other side only uses "beating" when describing spanking. If we said that the police "beat" someone or a slave was "beaten", we don't think ... probably one or two controlled strikes to the bottom. The word means to 'strike repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them', which is not the God ordained method of child discipline. But you and the rest already know that.

Quote
So you are saying that Christians who don't beat their children don't love their children?

Perhaps you can be more obvious in your dishonesty. How about this: "So you are saying that Christians who don't batter their children don't love ..." 

Or, "Christians who don't pummel their children ..." that is equally disingenuous, but it is a synonym for "beat".

To help you rephrase your question, you are asking if Christians who don't rain heavy blows so as to pound, punch, and thrash their children don't love them?

Well, what did God say (as if it matters to you)? Go back and read my post, God is unambiguous. So, 'yes' if you are a Christian and your child requires spanking to enforce discipline but you refuse, then yes, you aren't seeking your child's highest good. Pretty simple really.

Quote
I know what beating is and I know what you are attempting to do by claiming hitting children with a rod is not beating them

Indeed you know what beating is, and you know that Christians who are obeying God in disciplining their children don't beat (see the definition below), however they do strike or spank their children, that they do.

Definition of spanking: slap with one's open hand or a flat object, especially on the buttocks as a punishment

Definition of beating:  strike repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, usually with an implement such as a club or whip.

You also know by reading Tony's post (or glossing over it most likely) that the KJV "beating" has absorbed negative connotations today that it didn't possess in 1611. The word means "to strike" and doesn't inform as to light or hard, just the idea of "striking" with an idea for correction.

Obviously if we used your indictment that God wants Christians to "beat" their children, implying "to strike repeatedly and violently” that is with force over and over so as to injure, then God wouldn't add "if thou beatest him with a rod he shall not die."  If God intended the modern usage of "beat" (repeated violent blows from an angry assailant - we just might have a death), which you assert.  However, God is very confident that the outcome is not life threatening. So, taking your assertions at face value we have God foolishly wanting 1) Christians to hammer their children violently with blows just shy of death 2) then claiming such violence isn't anything to worry about because the child will be just fine. Such an unadorned phony attempt to avoid the truth as written by God for the purpose of imparting wisdom to the wise. And you missed it.

You and your ilk probably don't realize how utterly asinine your accusations against God are (and yes they are against God, He's the One you are really fighting, not me). Let's try a bit of honesty. It is self-evident that the reason the child will "not die" is because the striking (Hebrew 'Nakah', meaning to strike) can be done without fear or anxiety over such a thing happening. God knows the child's reaction to discipline but wants the parent to strike (i.e., spank) even over the objections of the child (who is acting like he is dying with all the crying and commotion). God is saying the child may sound like he's going to die, but he's not (God is reminding parents not to be fooled by a child's wailing). So, wisdom says to spank the child (when needed) and enforce the law, man's and God's (and save his/her soul from Sheol by doing so). Couldn't be any plainer.
 

Further, for those that actually read posts and try to comprehend them, the word translated "rod', as in beat them with a rod in Pro 23:13, is the Hebrew 'Shebet" meaning "to branch off", that is, a "stick". I recognize you hoped to poke God in the eye and claim God wanted His people to beat their children with metal rods. I can hear the idiocy now, "Christians like to pummel and beat their children with heavy blows from iron poles, and how Christians can dare to think that violently and repeatedly beating and pummeling their little children with the entire length of a steel flag pole isn't child abuse?"  One wonders how?

Yes, it is collective strategy of those holding unsupported emotional opinions not to deal with issues but to try and foment an emotional response by defining terms falsely with a mind to hide the failure of their position. But making absurd and false charges in hopes of gaining support from the gallery of the uninformed is not a winning tactic. All this arguing over spanking is done knowing full well (one hopes those opposing spanking truly aren't as intellectually dishonest as they appear) that God condones it. In fact He demands it!

So, like so many times before here we are again. People are either pursuing knowledge that God offers in the Bible, or they are playing senseless games trying to circumvent truth. The saddest thing is, the same anti-spanking folks (you know who you are) will be back here in a few months with the identical "beating" language and the same futile arguments in yet another thread.

Just like other revolving topics: divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, fornication, women's submission -- the same drones argue using the same empty rhetoric, recycling failed arguments. Yep, unable to receive truth they assert the same falsities with the same pomposity knowing all the time that their foolishness has been utterly crushed every time by the unalterable word of God. Yet, behold, there they are again, repeating themselves as if their defeat before God never happened. I think something about learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth applies here.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Erik Diamond

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #188 on: September 19, 2014, 12:43:58 AM »
 :word: :GoodPopst:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Diane Moody

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #189 on: September 20, 2014, 08:10:06 AM »
Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)


It is beating or hitting in order to cause pain and discomfort, but it's not abuse. Not according to God.


That's the sense that I get from the scriptures also. I don't see how you cannot get that sense from the scriptures. Clearly, it's not just a light tap on the behind. That may be good for toddlers, but not as they grow older. It's hitting to cause pain so as to correct. Some adversity, trials, strife and tribulations are good for you in order to grow. In other words, this type of correction is actually beneficial, not harmful as psychologists would have us believe. Really, look carefully at God's instructions that have been posted here before. Do we really think God doesn't know what he's talking about or that there is any way to make his words not refer to corporal punishment?

 Proverbs 23:12-14
 "Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell".


Not beating him so that he dies, but beating him so he is corrected. God is saying that by beating him he shall be reclaimed from sin, and thus saved from the wages of sin, which is death. God is saying, this is his wisdom, as compared to the wisdom of men. That we should put our children under the chastising rod, so that they do not perish through want of timely discipline. So I agree with the sentiment that all parents who are wise should imitate God's example in his dealing with their children. That doesn't mean regular beatings (abuse), but on that occasion when one is warranted to bring your children back in line with righteousness. And of course, some never will. But that's no reason to call God's counsel a failure.

I see this issue not as one of "does the bible say it," but that so many Christians today are accepting very liberal and unchristian advice, thinking psychologists are giving the better advice for rearing children than God is giving. And isn't that always what brings God's people down? Listening to outside influences rather than remaining faithful?


Diane Moody

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #190 on: September 20, 2014, 08:26:05 AM »
Anyway, back to the point Yaboo was making. I also find it hard to believe that you people would condone beating children with a stick or switch or rod as you claim the bible says.


We don't claim the bible says it, the bible says it. I assume you can read, so you know the bible says it. I'll say it again, I see this issue not as one of "does the bible say it," but that so many Christians today are accepting very liberal and unchristian advice, thinking psychologists are giving the better advice for rearing children than God is giving.

And by the way, the bible word rod means a stick or what we might call a branch or switch. It is an offshoot from the trunk of a tree, Ge 30:37; Isa 11:1. How big it is determines if it is used for correction or as a staff or other large poll.  Like I said, I see this issue as "does the bible say it" or are some Christians attempting to change what it says.

Diane Moody

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #191 on: September 20, 2014, 08:28:50 AM »
And Mila, if you are talking about the running back for the Minnesota Vikings, Adrian Peterson, then he should be prosecuted because he committed a criminal act by hitting his child with a switch. That's child abuse.

He might have gone overboard with it and the child was a little young for it, but the rod in the bible is a switch and it is not child abuse no matter what the psychologists (or you) claim.

Diane Moody

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #192 on: September 20, 2014, 08:36:39 AM »
I find it hard to believe that anyone would approve of beating children, except maybe Tony, Reformer and a few other religious fanatics.

Oh, you mean the faithful few. Christians who actually take God's word seriously and don't pretend God never said a word about hitting children? Yes, they are few, but with God's help they will continue to be the beacons guiding God's people home.

 I Thessalonians 5:5-6
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Reformer

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #193 on: September 20, 2014, 02:48:54 PM »
And Mila, if you are talking about the running back for the Minnesota Vikings, Adrian Peterson, then he should be prosecuted because he committed a criminal act by hitting his child with a switch. That's child abuse.

He might have gone overboard with it and the child was a little young for it, but the rod in the bible is a switch and it is not child abuse no matter what the psychologists (or you) claim.

Yes, absolutely he went overboard. Still the government had no business getting involved in what was clearly not criminal intent, or making any like-discipline a criminal offense with penalties of spending years in prison. What's next? Spanking?

 The Christian rule of discipline is that first, let them know that you love them and "this" is why you must do this. Second, you never discipline in anger because that is when you go overboard. It should be "controlled" correction. Third, you never beat children until they bleed or are harmed. That's going beyond correction. Fourth, you let them know ahead of time why they are being disciplined and that there is no joy for the parent in doing so.  Fifth, know when to stop. With some children one hit is enough. With others, it takes more. And last but not least, connect with them afterward to verbally reinforce the lesson and show your agony with it and your affection toward them. Too many parents discipline and then act as if they hate them afterward for a week. You can tell them you are disappointed in them, but don't spurn,  show contempt or disparagement afterward.


Lieberman

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Re: Should We Spank Our Children
« Reply #194 on: September 22, 2014, 10:33:27 AM »
Reformer,
   I think that the government has to get involved at some point. Otherwise, parents could do anything to their children with impunity. Maybe he shouldn't be prosecuted, but he at the very least should have been warned.

 


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