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Author Topic: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?  (Read 31822 times)

RedeemedinHim

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2007, 10:58:40 AM »
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Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy. And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.

To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven. Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it. Why is your efforts being spent condemning the workings of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostals and Charismatics? Have you no feelings, no understanding that miracles do happen today?  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No, it's not an act of jealousy in any way.  It's an acknowledgment and/or declaration of their heretical teachings much like the acknowledgment/declaration of the heretical teachings found within the mormon church. 

As to the pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit found in the pentecostal churches, I would like to give an example.  I speak from experience as I used to belong to a pentecostal church when I was a newer believer.  If a person had a problem with alcohol, they would be told that they had a demon of alcohol and needed deliverance.  They would then sit through a deliverance session and they would then exhibit weird behavior such as coughing, wiggling around, possibly throwing up.  IF alcohol problems were due to demons, then one could walk into the local bar and command the demons to leave.  If drinking problems were due to demons, then the pentecostals could go to the local bars and effectively shut them down by commanding demons to get out.  The problem is that those that are being delivered from demons are the pentecostals themselves.  This happens through the power of suggestion.  A person in authority tells them that they have a demon, the person believes it -- and voilà, they exhibit the behavior of being delivered.  If one did not accept that they had a demon or if one did not exhibit the behavior to show that they were being delivered, they were told they were lacking faith.

This flies smack against what happens in scripture.  There is no instance in scripture where a believer was possessed by a demon.  In ALL instances, it was a non believer and in those cases, a command was given.  It did not involve deliverance sessions.

The bottom line is in pentecostal churches, one acts the way they do because of the power of suggestion -- they are told to believe certain ways so they will manifest the behavior of what they are told to believe.  Growling like lions, barking like dogs, wriggling around looking like one is having a seizure, etc. -- this is a learned behavior based on what they are taught is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

No, jealousy is not an issue with non pentecostals.  It's simply an acknowledgment and understanding that the teachings coming from the pentecostal churches are false.

Chris

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2007, 01:57:58 PM »
Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.
judy

Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.

midas

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2007, 08:24:46 PM »
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Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.

Chris are you saying

Some religions do receive messages/revelations from God and has the authority to extend beyond the bible and this is OK or

Were you just pointing out what Pentecostalism believe and it NOT ok to extend beyond the bible

Chris

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2007, 08:35:48 AM »
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Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.

Chris are you saying

Some religions do receive messages/revelations from God and has the authority to extend beyond the bible and this is OK or

Were you just pointing out what Pentecostalism believe and it NOT ok to extend beyond the bible



No, I was just pointing out the error in Judy's belief that Pentecostals do not have an authority outside of the Bible. Because if they believe that they are receiving verbalized messages from the Spirit of God outside of the Bible, then obviously their authority extends beyond the Bible to these alleged messages from God.

Galatians 1:9 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed".

I reject that any true Christian religion today can actually receive messages/revelations from God or has the authority to extend God's word beyond the bible. I was just telling Judy that Pentecostalism is a fraud religion just like the others, and should not be tolerated by any Christians. It is another religion.

Tony Warren

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2007, 11:08:52 AM »
>>>
Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy.
<<<

 Assuming "Bible Thumpers" means Bible believers or Biblical Christians, I would say they testify against Pentecostalism and Charismaticism because it is a "serious" danger to the church in general. And just because a great many of the church do not recognize that danger, doesn't mean those who do should be silent about it.

2nd Timothy 2:15-17
  • " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
  • But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
  • And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;"

Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!


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>>>
And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.
<<<

No, You can attribute it to that, I will attribute it to the so-called "Good Christians" preaching humanistic love, worldly compromise and allowances, and extolling the sincerity of such wayward people. It is the professing Christians giving heed to the persuasion/seduction of deceiving spirits that cause them to depart from the faith once delivered to the Saints.

1st Timothy 4:1
  • "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
2nd Thessalonians 2:3
  • "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

I would contribute the steady growth of Pentecostalism to indifferent, apathetic, indolent, lazy, unconscientious Christians. ..but that's just me.


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>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.
<<<

Yes, I don't doubt that "might" be true. It would be specifically because of people in the church today who are unable to distinguish the difference between another religion and the true religion and so give quarter to such doctrines. It is true that much of the once faithful church has capitulated to Pentecostal and Charismatic influences, and many more help by giving it tacit approval. That is just one more indication of the signs of the times. And even though some intellectually may not have embraced many of the extremes of this caustic movement, they have given in to the flawed reasoning behind it. I don't doubt that for a minute, and I think it's even demonstrated here sometimes. Nevertheless, growth and acceptance of error is not the litmus test for a true doctrine or church. Not adding or taking away from the word of God is the test. It is false and extra-biblical doctrine that makes a church "another religion" and this is what much of the church "still" does not understand. ...even after all these years.

Ezekiel 22:28
  • "And her prophets have daubed them with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken."

Note it is the "prophets" of the Lord that have plastered or mortared the bricks of His house with unsound adhesives, and that is what causes the house to eventually fall.  Selah.


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>>>
To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven.
<<<

You might be able to scare the less educated in scripture with that old "bug-a-boo" but those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between Pentecostal babbling/confusion, and the true working of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error (1st John 4:6). Between wrested Scriptures and authoritative Scriptures quoted word for word. Between speaking against the "evil of Pentecostalism," and speaking evil of the Holy Spirit.

2nd Peter 1:21
  • "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

I reiterate, to falsely claim that God is speaking through you, when God is obviously not speaking through you (which the Pentecostal religion does) is an Abomination and blatantly heretical. And I do not care how many professing Christians today with their humanistic reasoning, wish to accept Pentecostalism babbling in the name of God as being of the body of Christ. I will never accept it, nor give place to such debauchery and horrifically false incendiary doctrines. Because holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, but unholy men today speak as they were moved by the spirit of Antichrist "claiming" it is the Spirit of God. And that I will never accept nor include in the body of Christ. All extra-Biblical messages disingenuously alleged to be from God today, are an addition to God's word and contrary to the body of Christ.


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>>>
Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it.
<<<

No, that's the "power" of deception, and it's not the working of the Holy Spirit. It's the working of humanism, the carnal inclination to "show off" in feigning to have something which is obviously not there. As for the so-called Good Christians, "they are the problem." For there are no good Christians, only true Christians. God is good, but man dwells in a robe of flesh. Man is easily deceived "IF" he is not looking to scripture (God's unadulterated word/i]) and not experience for truth.

1st John 4:1
  • "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Today these so-called "Good Christians" will claim that's not really their job to see and test whether the spirits are of God or not. Today so-called "Good Christians" would call that judgmental. Today so-called "Good Christians" will defer their proving the spirits and simply include them all as part of the body of Christ simply because they attend the church and they seemed nice people. No, God's not looking for "Good Christians" to save the world and pardon every transgression, God is looking for "Two Witnesses" to testify to His word and preach the gospel truth that such errors as Pentecostalism are destroying the "Covenanted Church" and it is the so-called "Good Christians" who are largely responsible.

Ezekiel 3:18
  • "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT his blood will I require at thine hand."

Meaning that the so-called "Good Christians" who neglect their jobs (yes, jobs) as watchmen, will not go unpunished. Selah! It is not enough to know what is the work of the Spirit, we must also try the spirits to understand what is "not" of the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit isn't a liar against itself, it's the man that is claiming to be moved of the Spirit in abject babbling that is the liar. Let's not forget that. As I said before, claiming to speak direct messages miraculously from God is not some simple mistake or error in understanding, it is a deliberate pretense of God's working. For that which is not the working of God's Spirit, but claiming to "BE" the working of the Spirit of God, is the egregious spirit of antichrist. So I have no problem with exposing this heretical error with respect to the (alleged) work of the Spirit.


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>>>
Why is your efforts being spent condemning the workings of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostals and Charismatics?
<<<

Revelation 11:3
  • "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Because I mourn in sackcloth for these transgressions in the church. My efforts are spent witnessing to truth and testifying against false teachings masquerading as Christianity. It's spent giving glory to God for the "true workings of the Holy Spirit" and warning God's people of the gross error of those "alleged" Good Christians who deliberately "feign" that they are receiving miraculous declarations directly from God in an unknown language. Pentecostalism is Heterodox Christianity, a growing, carnal, vain, man-centered religion. Our church, life and worship should be theocentric or God-centered. We spend our time worshipping Him in righteousness and truth, not in lying about receiving private messages from Him in code. God's children do not lie about such things. It is the children of Satan whose Father teaches such lies.

Proverbs 17:3-4
  • "The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
  • A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue."

The true Spirit of God won't give ear to such abominable babblings supposed to be from Him. Saying thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said. So what spirit will give ear to the naughty (perverse) tongue? We are living in a world today where the face of worship is changing to a more physical, vicarious, emphasis on feelings, empirical experience, ego-centric worship, where the idea of fervent Spirit-filled prayer is altered, and sound theology is belittled and labeled harsh. But God's people are not of that world, they are just visitors here.

Hebrews 11:13
  • "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

We are not of this world. True faith reveals that we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth, here merely as servants of God to do a job. Not of condemning, but of standing fast, holding true, removing not the ancient landmarks, but being a watchman to sound the trumpet to warn "Good Christians."


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>>>
Have you no feelings...
<<<

Yes. But unlike "secular humanism," Christians bring their feelings into "subjection" to the word of God, and not vice versa. It may be true that emotion, empirical evidences and feelings have replaced objective truth in many churches, and I'm sure that is partly why Pentecostalism is making such great strides in the church. But I believe that as TRUE believers, we are obliged to take the time to study exactly what these people are "claiming." We cannot simply refuse to question, or just Humanistically give them some illogical, unchristian "benefit of the doubt." Because there is "no doubt" of the egregious error in what they are claiming to be doing, and there is "no benefit" in including them as part of the body, and there is "no question" but that it is their own invention rather than the truth. Truth inspires change. Real change, not just the lip service that passes for being servants of God, but real servitude.

1st John 3:18-19
  • "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
  • And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him."

I.e., let us not just give lip service to the truth in love, but let us put actions behind our words. Feelings are merely sensibilities, emotions, sensations and the output of one's state of mind. But agape is so much more and inspires growth in real Truth and Grace.


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>>>
...no understanding that miracles do happen today?
<<<

I do understand that miracles do happen today. Every time someone becomes saved, there has been another resurrection. Every time someone hears the gospel and it pricks their hearts that they understand, the miracle of the deaf being able to hear for the first time has occurred. Every time someone has their eyes opened that they can see that Christ is the only way to salvation, the miracle of sight has been given to the blind. Every time an evangelist preaches the gospel and people eat it up, the miracle of bread multiplied to the hungry is performed. And it's all the working of the Holy Spirit. Not this "pretend" working demonstrated in Pentecostalism, but the real working of the Holy Spirit of God.

Matthew 9:12-13
  • "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
  • But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Likewise, "Go ye and learn" what that means. Then you'll know of the true miracles of the Spirit that are occurring today, rather than the lying signs and wonders that God has warned His servants of. The true Baptism of the Spirit, rather than the Pseudo Christ spirit that pretends it is a cleansing spirit. That kind of spirit that Jesus said "would deceive many!" And the reason it does is because the so-called "Good Christians" go by feelings and humanistic love, and not by faith in God's word alone.


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>>>
I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
<<<

Those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between a "Straw Man," and the faithful man. I never deny the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Spirit is true only as God defines it, not as Pentecostals attempt to redefine it. It is that the true Spirit of God cleanses us (Baptizes us) from our sins when we become saved. And this true Spirit of God (as opposed to the spirit of Antichrist) works in our hearts, quietly and yet powerfully in blessings that are far above and beyond any outward ostentatious Pentecostal display of piety. For it is the Spirit of Truth communing with us secretly, unseen but realized.

Matthew 6:6
  • "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

But, if you want to stand up in church and babble incoherently pretending that God is speaking to you in His own miraculous language, then you go right ahead. No one will stop you. Indeed, I'm sure that many of this church will pat you on the back and call you brother. But you are not going to hear it from me. Because true agape love is in witnessing to "The Truth," even when it may hurt feelings, and even as others are giving tacit support for those errors. I don't live by feelings, by church consensus, by popular opinion or by humanistic ideas of love, I live by following God's word alone.

Luke 4:4
  • "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

My prayer is that faithful Christians will not be deceived by appearances of sincerity or swayed by the modernist idea of "Good Christians," regardless of their doctrines. For doctrines are the MEAT of the gospel. My prayer is that many will stand on the word of God, where we seek that God's name may be glorified, and not ourselves. Not in man's feigned but apparent spiritual blessings, but in true Spiritual blessings.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2007, 05:04:28 PM »
those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between Pentecostal babbling/confusion, and the true working of the Holy Spirit.

 I know the true working of the Holy Spirit when I hear it, and I hear it in this post. Funny how twisted doctrines can be so easily accepted, and the straight and narrow doctrines can cause such offense. There are few things that upsets me more than the Pentecostal delusion, but one of them is Christians that try and make excuses for it.

 "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;  The prophets prophesy falsely, and the
priests bear rule by their means;  and my people love to have it so:  and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
(Jer. 5:30,31) 

The faithful looks and sees the very foundations of the truth shaking. And it is a few faithful Christians like you who take up the banner and march forward when others step over it in retreat. Much appreciated!


Betty

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2007, 09:12:06 AM »
If it was the work of the Holy Spirit, we would not speak evil against it.  It is BECAUSE it is NOT the work of the Holy Spirit that we speak against it.



How do you know it is not the work of the holy spirit? Maybe Apostolic is right, you should be careful of what you say. Do not condemn Pentecostalism.


Quote
I have been to a couple gatherings with Pentecostals and was frightened by their actions. 
Pam
 

 Just because you are scared of the spirit doesn't mean that you should condemn it. Fear is a good thing. It keeps you from blasphemying.

Luke 6:37-38
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV


Betty

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2007, 09:17:09 AM »
Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!

Oh give me a break. So what you are claiming is that Pentecostals are false Prophets? Is that what you are saying?  If so, I would like biblical justification for that.

Luke 6:37
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV

Where is your biblical justification for judging and condemning.


Betty

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2007, 09:24:44 AM »
Thank you Judy,

The Pentecostal Religion is the Christian Church, just like every other denomination that believes "Jesus is Lord" and salvation comes through Him alone by asking Him into your heart, and for the forgiveness of sins by His precious shed blood on the cross.


First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her. I have seen some very biblical Pentecostal churches just like she has, and I do not think that you should condemn these Churches just because you disagree with their doctrines. You have no right to say they are not of the Church. Yes, that is going too far.

Matthew 7:1-2
 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. NIV


Anne

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2007, 06:50:55 PM »
Pentecostals

Christianity reborn
From The Economist print edition

A century after its birth Pentecostalism is redrawing the religious map of the world and undermining the notion that modernity is secular

IN 1906 Ambrose Bierce, one of America's finest satirists, published a guide to boloney, “The Cynic's Word Book” or, as it was later rechristened, “The Devil's Dictionary”. Bierce reserved his sharpest barbs for religion. To pray, he said, is “to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy”. Religion is “a daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable”. For Bierce, Christianity was an antiquated superstition with no place in the modern world.

In the same year an itinerant black preacher arrived in Los Angeles. William J. Seymour was “disheveled in appearance”, blind in one eye and scarred by smallpox. He was also on fire with a vision—that Jesus would soon return and God would send a new Pentecost if only people would pray hard enough. He began to preach from a makeshift church in Azusa Street, in a run-down part of town. Soon thousands joined him. People spoke in tongues, floated six feet in the air, or so we are told, and fell to the floor in trances, “slain by the Lord”. The faithful prayed day after day for three years on the trot, and dispatched dozens of missionaries abroad.

At the time, the Azusa Street revival looked like an aberration. Surely the future belonged to the cynical secularists such as Bierce rather than the tongue-speaking preacher like Seymour? Intellectual fashion had turned sharply against religion. Marxists dismissed it as a tool of class oppression; Freudians regarded it as a collective neurosis; economists thought that because it had no market price it had no value; and sociologists, such as Emile Durkheim and Max Weber, pronounced its death rites. The year before, France had passed a tough law banning religion from the public square.

You did not have to be a card-carrying intellectual to think that Azusa Street was a flash in the pan. The Los Angeles Times complained about a “weird Babel of tongues” and a “new sect of fanatics” who “work themselves into a state of mad excitement”. Respectable people were outraged that Seymour encouraged inter-racial worship, particularly given that it involved hugging and ululating. The religious establishment was equally hostile, believing that the future of religion lay in reconciling itself with reason. Fundamentalists condemned Seymour for focusing on the Spirit rather than the Letter. “The last vomit of Satan” was one preacher's verdict on the movement.

Yet, with the possible exception of Europe, history has moved in Seymour's direction rather than Bierce's. The great secular ideologies of the 19th and early 20th centuries—from Marxism to Freudianism—have faded while Seymour's spirit-filled version of Christianity has flourished. Pentecostal denominations have prospered, and Pentecostalism has infused traditional denominations through the wildly popular charismatic movement.

Today there are more than 500m “revivalists” in the world (ie, members of Pentecostal denominations plus “charismatics” in traditional denominations). In a recent survey of Pentecostalism, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life argues that “renewalist movements” are the world's fastest-growing religious movement: the World Christian Database shows that renewalists now make up about a quarter of the world's Christian population compared with just 6% 30 years ago. The evidence of this can be seen everywhere in America and the developing world: in churches the size of football stadiums in Latin America, in 12,000-acre “redemption camps” in Nigeria, in storefront churches in the slums of Rio and Los Angeles. LA's most successful export is not Hollywood but Pentecostalism.

Pentecostals believe in things that set Bierce's teeth on edge. The Pew Forum made a particularly detailed study of ten countries. In all ten large majorities of Pentecostals (ranging from 56% in South Korea to 87% in Kenya) say that they have either experienced or witnessed divine healing. In eight of them majorities say that they have received a “direct revelation from God”. In six countries more than half believe that Jesus will return to earth during their lifetimes—and in all ten more than 80% believe that the faithful will be gathered up before the end of the world and transported to heaven.

Pentecostals take their name from the biblical feast of the Pentecost. Early followers of Jesus who had gathered for the feast were “filled with the Holy Spirit” and able to “speak in tongues”. The curse of Babel was lifted and people from different countries could understand each other. Pentecostals are most akin to Evangelicals in their emphasis on being born again. But they differ from Evangelicals, as well as from other Christians, in their emphasis on the Holy Spirit. They believe not only that the Last Days are coming, but also that the Spirit can enter ordinary mortals and give them extraordinary powers.

Pentecostalism continues to thrive in the land of its birth. Until the 1950s the movement was associated with the margins of American culture—with snake-handlers and rural shacks. Since then it has not only grown—two in every ten Americans see themselves as “charismatics”—but also gone mainstream. In 1974, a thousand people gathered in Washington's respectable-as-it-gets National Cathedral for a service in which many people spoke in tongues. But the movement is at its most vital in the developing world: renewalists make up around 50% of the population in Brazil and Kenya. And in Latin America Pentecostalism has shattered the Roman Catholic Church's monopoly. In Brazil—the world's largest Catholic country and one whose national identity is intertwined with the church—about a seventh of the population is now Pentecostal and a third is “charismatic”. In Guatemala Pentecostalism is sweeping all before it.

The Spirit in Guatemala
The Catholic cathedral still dominates the main square in Guatemala City. But the country is now around 30% Protestant, and six in ten remaining Catholics are “charismatics”. Pentecostal gatherings are ubiquitous in the city. Harold Caballeros, the pastor of El Shaddai, a mega-church with comfortable seats, a bookshop, a café and a broadcasting network, estimates that a new church is born every day, and a whirlwind trip around the city one Sunday suggests that he is right.

Pentecostal services take place everywhere: in respectable hotels (having been kept up most of the night by revellers, your correspondent was woken early on Sunday by the sound of hallelujahs and an amplified rock band); in disused shops in the poor part of town; in huge modern stadiums. The most successful church, Fraternidad Cristiana de Guatemala, is preparing to open a gigantic church, rumoured to be the biggest building in Central America, complete with a “Burger King drive”, seating for over 12,000, parking for more than 3,500 cars, 48 Sunday-school classrooms, a baptism pool with space for hundreds, and a heliport. The building cost $20m, paid in cash.

From the mega churches to the storefronts, these services have striking similarities, down to the ubiquitous Israeli flag (once the Second Coming has taken place in Israel, the Jews will convert to Christianity). They go on for hours without any obvious beginning or end (worshippers wander out for a chat and a coffee). The band works people up into a frenzy. (“God likes music a lot,” says Alex Gonzalez, the Apostle of Jesus Evangelista Church.) Nobody seems to mind if you burst into tears or start hollering. Women come to the stage to testify about the way God has changed their lives. At some point a preacher appears and delivers a lengthy sermon. And for those whose appetites are not sated by all this worship, there are also Christian television channels, Christian radio channels (25 at the last count), Christian restaurants and, during the workday, company-sponsored religious services.

Why has Pentecostalism been so successful? Part of the answer lies in the internal dynamics of the religion. Luis Lugo, the director of the Pew Forum, calls Pentecostals “turbo-charged Evangelicals”. “Conversion is such an emotional moment that you have to share it,” says Mr Caballeros. “Then the people you convert share it. It's a never-ending process. It's exponential.” And they are very good at it. A Pentecostal service is an unforgettable experience, part religious service, part spectacle, part rock 'n' roll rave.

Pentecostalism fills the “ecstasy deficit” left by cooler religionsHarvey Cox, a professor at Harvard, points to two things that have put wind into the movement's sails. One is the fact that it reconnects people with primitive religion: it taps into a deep substratum of primal spirituality, filling the “ecstasy deficit” left by cooler religions. The movement's emphasis on experience rather than doctrine gives it a remarkable ability to absorb other faiths, from spirit possession in the Caribbean to ancestor worship in Africa, from folk healing in Brazil to shamanism in Korea. As the Pentecostals say, “the man with an experience is never at the mercy of the man with a doctrine.”

The other is that Pentecostalism offers a “third way” between scientific rationalism and traditional religion. For many people rationalism is thin gruel. But they are reluctant to return to traditional churches. Pentecostalism offers something different—a religion that is about excitement and emotion, not hierarchy and dogma.

Pentecostalism clearly has a powerful internal dynamic. Still, it would be naive to try to understand the spread of a 500m-strong religion without reference to sociology. What are the social reasons for the movement's success? And what is the social impact of this fast-growing religious movement? The ideas of the four founders of social science—Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Adam Smith and Max Weber—offer some possible answers.

The Marxist view is that religion is the opium of the people, a false consolation for life's miseries. There is no doubt that Pentecostalism first took off among the poor and the dispossessed and that it offers some dubious consolations. But it is spreading rapidly among the middle classes and the elites. And far from reconciling people to life's miseries, Pentecostalism tends to send them on a mission to fix things—from giving up drinking to reforming society. Opium it ain't.

The Durkheimian view is that religion can be a solution to “anomie”. This is more promising. The developing world is seeing a huge migration of people from the countryside to sprawling cities: Guatemala City's population has surged to over 2.5m today, for example. Pentecostal churches offer a ready-made community and a source of discipline in an urban society rife with temptations. The churches are full of put-upon women who have dragged their men along, hoping to wean them off drink, gambling and other women.

Smith offers a third view: that Pentecostalism thrives because of the effects of competition. Whereas the Catholic Church is a would-be monopoly, Pentecostals create thousands of competing churches. The barriers to entry are low—almost anyone can set up a church—but the pressure to perform is relentless: if you can't preach a mesmerising service, people will go elsewhere. “We have to work against the competition as well as the devil,” says a young preacher.

One result of this is that Pentecostalism draws on the full talents of the population. The Catholic Church is perpetually short of priests, not least because it limits its recruitment to well-educated celibate males. But Pentecostal churches have a genius for elevating charismatic sheep from the flock. They are particularly good at using female talent. Women not only fill the pews. They get up and testify. And they are increasingly becoming preachers in their own right—a particularly striking development in patriarchal Latin America.

Another result is that Pentecostalism is wonderfully innovative. What other Christian movement can produce churches with names like the Mountain of Fire and Miracles (in Nigeria) and the Church of Christ's Spit (in Brazil)? And what other religious movement can produce “hallelujah robotics”—a sort of frenzied dancing and chanting? Churches also make aggressive use of modern media. With its charismatic preachers, dramatic testimonials and miraculous cures, Pentecostalism is telegenic.

Many churches are therefore superb businesses—honed by competition and obsessed with expansion. The Universal Church of the Kingdom of God in Brazil, which was only created in 1977, has more than 2m members today. Its founder, “Bishop” Edir Macedo, owns one of Brazil's largest television stations as well as radio stations, newspapers and a football team. The “cathedral” of the Jotabeche Methodist Pentecostal Church in Santiago, Chile, can seat 18,000. The Yoido Full Gospel Church is the biggest church in the world: every Sunday 250,000 people turn up to worship.

The final explanation is drawn from Max Weber—that Pentecostalism, like Puritanism before it, is an instrument of modernisation. Peter Berger, the dean of sociologists of religion, argues that “Max Weber is alive and well and living in Guatemala City”. Pentecostalism is making dramatic advances among the upwardly mobile. One of the movement's central messages is self-respect—Pentecostals are “dynamite in the hands of God” rather than deferential servants. Relying on ordinary people to spread the word, the churches are particularly good at conveying the rudiments of management. They teach people to speak in public, organise meetings and, as they become more successful, manage large organisations. The bookshops in the mega churches are full of tomes on management as well as spiritual uplift.

This argument is far from perfect. Weber's God remained aloof whereas the Pentecostals' God reaches down to touch the human heart. Pentecostals are restoring much that the Puritans drove out of Christianity, such as visions, miracles and healing cures. It is clearly backward-looking as well as forward-looking—and in its worst forms it is a licence for fraudsters. Before he was caught with a prostitute, Jimmy Swaggart, an Assemblies of God minister, reached 500m viewers a week and attracted an estimated half a million dollars in donations every day. A number of Latin American preachers have a weakness for silk suits and fancy houses.

The movement has also, at times, had a strained relationship with democracy. Guatemala's first Pentecostal president, Efrain Rios Montt, killed tens of thousands of Mayans (and enjoyed the support of American Pentecostals such as Pat Robertson). The head of Los Israelites in Peru took the titles of the Grand Biblical Compiler, Grand and Unique Missionary General, Spiritual Guide, Prophet of God, Master of Masters, Holy Spirit and Christ of the West. Some famous preachers act as power brokers as well as religious leaders.

Pentecostalism is not only burning through the “cities of the dispossessed”. It is also consuming the elites of the developing world.No movement as big and fast-growing as Pentecostalism can be captured in a single phrase. Harvey Cox calls it “diverse, volatile and mercurial”. David Martin, a British sociologist, says that it is “a potent mixture of the pre-modern and the postmodern, of the pre-literate and the post-literate, of the fiesta and the encounter group”. Still, the modernising element seems to have the upper hand right now.

Many of the new generation of Pentecostal preachers, particularly in the biggest churches, are notable for their entrepreneurial and intellectual sophistication. Jorge Lopez, the head of Guatemala's Fraternidad Cristiana, preaches the virtues of entrepreneurialism. Mr Caballeros, who has just returned from a term at Harvard, litters his conversation with references to Weber and Michael Porter, a management guru. He argues that Pentecostalism can lift his country out of poverty by teaching individuals to be thrifty and officials to abandon corruption. His church has founded 11 schools and organised rural medical missions. A hot tip for winning the presidency in 2007, he is now handing his ministry over to his wife in order to devote himself to politics.

Mr Caballeros is not alone in his enthusiasm for politics. Brazil's Universal Church has its own political party. Majorities of Pentecostals in nine of the ten countries studied by Pew said that religious groups should express their views on politics—and sizeable minorities (and a small majority in the United States and Nigeria) said that the government should take steps to make their country a Christian country. This is worrying at the best of times, summoning up ghosts of theocracy; it is particularly alarming in sub-Saharan Africa, where supercharged Pentecostal congregations are bumping up against Islam. A recent seminar on Pentecostalism put on by the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington, DC, attracted people from the entire Washington political machine, including the National Security Council, the vice-president's office, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

There have been repeated warnings over the years that the Pentecostal fire will burn itself out. How can the faithful preserve this level of emotional intensity? And how can they continue to believe in faith-healing and other miracles in the face of the advance of science? So far the warnings have proved empty. Pentecostalism is not only burning through the “cities of the dispossessed” where Seymour found his home. It is also consuming the business and professional elites of the developing world. As for Ambrose Bierce, “The Devil's Dictionary” was republished a couple of years ago, and continues to sell respectably. At the time of writing, it is number 15,290 on Amazon's bestseller list.





Tony Warren

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2007, 10:24:32 AM »
>>>
Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!

Oh give me a break. So what you are claiming is that Pentecostals are false Prophets?
<<<

No, I'm claiming that "the Bible declares that Pentecostals and Charismatics are false prophets" in falsely declaring that God is working miracles through them. Yes, Absolutely! I merely Testify/Witness to what God has said about those who pretend to work the supernatural miracles of speaking for God, when God has not spoken.

Revelation 16:13-14
  • "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
  • For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

These are the spirits of devils, working miracles. What kind of miracles? Obviously they are not true miracles from God, but false ones from the spirit of Antichrist. How do we know? Because we try or test the Spirits by the word of God, not by signs or appearances.

One of the many problems of the church is that they have trouble "proving/testing/trying" anything because they just want to get along with everyone. But a false prophet (by definition/i]) is someone who speaks in the name of the Lord, when the lord has not spoken. i.e., a prophet that is false. That's exactly what these people do who are claiming to speak in God tongues and to physically heal by touching someone in God's name. I had one person tell me, "It's easy to see the Spirit of God working in them." That's nonsensical justification. This is "NOT" the Spirit of God, and it is not a true miracle. Like the wise men, the sorcerers and magicians of Egypt who did false miracles in like manner with enchantments, it is an abomination to God and His wrath abides upon them. No matter what the church may decree about their alleged sincerity and good nature.


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 Is that what you are saying? 
<<<

Again, the answer is no. From what I read in scripture, that is what the Bible is saying. Try and follow simple logic if you can't follow the Biblical record. The fact is, "Anyone" who says they are speaking unknown messages that are coming directly from God, when God hath not spoken to them in unknown messages, BY DEFINITION[/b] are false Prophets who are adding words from God to divine revelation. They are speaking for God FALSELY when God has not really spoken to them. I don't care how holy they may appear to be on the outside to some, they are prophets building with unsound theology, and thus their house will inevitably fall.

Ezekiel 22:28
  • "And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken."

So ...What shall we say then? Oh, they are just misguided prophets, but still of God but who just don't understand? Or shall we tell the truth in accordance with God's word? That is the question.

Philippians 1:27-28
  • "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
  • And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God."

God is saying here that our lives should be a light to answer the darkness, and we should all stand fast that our practices should not degenerate, but correspond to our profession of faith. A true gospel profession demands a gospel conversation of proving truth and faithfulness. Not of lip service, wherein we are frauds practicing deceit. We are not afraid to speak the truth in the humility of God's word in the love of true peace. The emblem and cognizance of Christ's believers is unfeigned "charitable" (agape) love. And the "TRUTH" is that Satan comes in the Church as a Messenger of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2nd Corinthians 11:14). If you think professed Christians are not of Satan unless you can see a forked tail and horns, you are naive. Those who have daubed with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and "divining lies unto the people, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken," are not misguided, they are deceived and seduced and go forth seducing. And are thus under God's judgment. Believe it or not, it's not something new under the sun, it's the same ole, same ole.

Ezekiel 13:10-14
  • "Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
  • Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
  • Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
  • Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
  • So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."

It's God saying He will judge those who put words in His mouth that He has not spoken, that daub with untempered mortar, that build with Pentecostal bricks. He will spue or vomit them out of His mouth and will leave their house desolate. Is that what I'm saying? You might think that. But it's truly what God has always said. And what man in his willfulness, has never listened to.


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If so, I would like biblical justification for that.
<<<

Biblical justification is as close as the "babbling spirits" that mock God by speaking from the mouths of Pentecostals, as if they were speaking for God.

1st John 4:1
  • "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

The problem has never been in finding Biblical justification for deciding who are false prophets and who are true prophets, the problem is (and always has been) the carnal sensibilities, the humanistic feelings, the willfulness of man in "not receiving" humbly the truth of what God has inspired written. Why do you think the church is being so greatly seduced and deceived today? Holy Spirit working Grace? No, just the opposite. I've said it 100 times, but it bears repeating, because it's not my words, but God's.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

You think Pentecostals or Charismatics do not receive some vain pleasure in their unrighteous babblings, or some carnal enjoyment from pretending God is speaking to them miraculously? If you don't, then you don't know the nature of man. The problem is (and always has been) the willfulness of man in not receiving humbly the truth of what God has inspired written.
 

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Luke 6:37
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV
<<<

Luke 6:37
  • "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

It is the private or personal judging of one's salvation and the private condemning of persons which God forbids, not the witness of the word of judgment. That would be ludicrous since God tells us to witness, warn, testify, and alert that man might change his ways. So to understand this in the manner you suggest would make a mockery out of the Bible. We wouldn't be able to have prisons, put away thieves, judge whether to give a beggar money or not, etc., etc., etc. And this can be proven by scripture rather easily, for the rational, logical, Biblical thinker.

2nd John 1:9-11
  • "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
  • If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
  • For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Quite a bit different from modernist Christians today who say, Sure, invite them in and maybe we can convince them of the truth by our preaching. An example of humanistic reasoning versus God's word.
 
Now, how does one know who comes to them with another doctrine, and do as God commands in Response, "EXCEPT" he make a judgment? Thus, we all make judgments, even you! Selah!

You see, contrary to "Good Christians" private interpretations, God does want us to judge who is coming with another Gospel, another doctrine, and contrary to the Love-nick New Age Church, God does want us to separate ourselves from them. So you can quote all the scripture "out of context" that you want about judging, because scripture out of context, is Pretext. CLEARLY, from scripture, God does want us to judge if a Gospel is of Christ, and to separate ourselves from those who come with this Other doctrine. My justification? No, the word of God.


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Where is your biblical justification for judging and condemning.
<<<

We don't condemn, we witness, and the witness of the word from our mouths (as if it were fire itself - Revelation 11:5 ) will judge. In other words, it is the word of God itself that shall judge in the last day (John 12:48). We don't need man's justification to Witness to truth and to testify of God's word against lawlessness, we have a holy unction from God and a Holy commission.

Revelation 22:18
  • "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

There is God's justification for testifying. Where is the justification of the alleged "Good loving Christians" for doing nothing in the face of the great Pentecostal and Charismatic threat and assault on the church? Where is the justification for their all-inclusive, lukewarm, straddle the line, live-n-let-live apathetic attitudes?

Revelation 3:14-16
  • "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
  • I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
  • So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

I.e., God doesn't want milk-toast, lukewarm, stand-for-nothing Christians. He wants Servants, Watchmen, Ministers and Shepherds. Look up the definition of those words. But like Society today in general, all the Church wants to do is be everyone's friend. Just as tike the Parents who don't want to be Parents to their Children anymore, they want to be friends so their children will like them. It's all of the world and typical irresponsibility of worldliness.
 

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2007, 11:16:21 AM »
>>>
First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her.
<<<

Whether Judy, Tony, Bradley, Penne, John, Illuminated, Erik, Andreas, Reformer, Dsouzaanthony, Sue, Kenneth, Pilgrim, whoever. It doesn't really matter who it is that declares something that is not found to be in line with Scripture. We need to take a stand against what is inconsistent with the Bible. I don't often quote authors here, but perhaps this one is pertinent.


"The duty of a theologian is, not to please the ear with empty sounds, but to confirm the conscience by teaching things which are true, certain and profitable."
-John Calvin

We're not men-pleasers here, so if it is contrary to the Biblical teachings, it should be brought to light and rejected. It doesn't matter who said it first Betty, because you gave assent to it so that makes your comment above "totally irrelevant." No need to tap dance around it, it's your position as well.


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I have seen some very biblical Pentecostal churches just like she has...
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Neither you nor Judy have seen any Biblical Pentecostal churches, because Biblical and "Pentecostal" are not words that are in harmony with each other. It's like me saying that "I've seen some clean shirts that were dirty." It doesn't make sense. If it was dirty, then it wasn't clean, and vice versa. Biblical churches do no falsely claim God is speaking miraculously through them in a babbling language of the Spirit of God. That is a "decidedly" an unbiblical church saying "thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said."

Ezekiel 13:6-7
  • "They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
  • Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?"

Sure, a lot of people of the modern church may think that this is a small thing, but God is not a man that He should think that way. The Lord sees such divination in His name as an abomination, not as poor misguided brothers in Christ. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts, neither our ways as God's ways.


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...and I do not think that you should condemn these Churches just because you disagree with their doctrines.
<<<

I don't merely disagree with their doctrines. My personal opinions are no better than yours. But their doctrines are decidedly unbiblical, and for me to be unmoved, disinterested or apathetic to their doctrines in such a forum would amount to a tacit agreement with their doctrines.

Revelation 2:14
  • "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication."

Not saying this is the same thing but clearly God holds it against the church for allowing those with foreign "doctrines" to teach and preach in His body. So while you and others may think it OK to hold to diverse and foreign doctrines in God's church, God says He holds such allowances in the body "against us." Now, you may disagree with God, but you cannot say He doesn't warn His church against such allowances concerning "other doctrines."


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You have no right to say they are not of the Church. Yes, that is going too far.
<<<

So you do say that, or as you claimed (I didn't say that?)   ???

Nevertheless, contrary to modernist Church opinions, we have every right to say they are not of the church, or that they divine deceitfully and falsely, or that their doctrines are extra-biblical and that they shouldn't be allowed in the body of Christ. Anything less puts us in danger of Revelation 2:14 of allowing those who hold extra-biblical doctrines to teach and preach things that are hard to understand, to cast a stumblingblock before the weaker vessels of the church.

2nd Peter 3:16-18
  • "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
  • Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
  • But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Yes, we have every right to say they are not of the church who add extra-biblical ideas, nor should be included with us, lest we also (being led away with the error of the wicked) fall from our own steadfastness. Not only a right, an obligation to "stand fast" against such doctrines and such prophets of the babbling spirits.


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Matthew 7:1-2
 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. NIV
<<<

Matthew 7:1-2
  • "Judge not, that ye be not judged.
  • For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

The prohibition is not upon what is faithful doctrines, or of trying or proving the spirits, but of charity concerning salvation. God forgives you, and "thus" you forgive others and do not hold it against them as if they are more evil than you yourself. For we all have feet of clay, and there but for the grace of God go I. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with trying the spirits, judging doctrines, separating ourselves from false teachers and prophets. Because that would make other scriptures contradictory and null and void. And no scripture can contradict another, because in reality it is in harmony with itself and must be read (and understood) that way. not as Pentecostals read it, only from one angle, out of context and emotionally and experientially.

John 7:24
  • "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Which of course has been the problem of man from his creation. Judging by what appears to be, rather than by what God says. People of other gospels may appear to be sincere and loving (e.g.: Sikhs, Catholics, Hinduism, Tao, Judaism, etc.), but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth of their teachings, nor with the reality of Christianity. We cannot judge by feelings, sentiment, or what seems right in our own eyes.

Proverbs 3:7-8
  • "Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
  • It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones."


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Robert Powell

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2007, 03:36:27 PM »
>>>
First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her.
<<<

Whether Judy, Tony, Bradley, Penne, John, Illuminated, Erik, Andreas, Reformer, Dsouzaanthony, Sue, Kenneth, Pilgrim, whoever. It doesn't really matter who it is that declares something that is not found to be in line with Scripture.

Hey, where's my name, I've been disagreed with too!   :P

 Seriously though, that's probably what they hate about you and what I love about you. You don't play favorites. It's what the word of God says that counts. That's the way it should be.

 On the topic at hand, has anyone read "The Pentecostal Takeover By Lee Stanford?"

    Book Summary

    The Pentecostal Takeover answers questions that have vexed non-Pentecostals all their lives. In eight chapters, this book highlights how Pentecostalism is destroying non-Pentecostal churches like a pestilence kills an entire nation. The Takeover is a smoldering letter of hard truths, designed to spiritually separate the wheat from the tares. This book exposes the shocking origin of Pentecostalism, dating back farther than the Azusa Street Revivals. Defined as pseudo-Christianity, Pentecostalism is Satan's plan of counterfeit salvation. The Takeover tries it and proves it. Pentecostalism is heresy taking over every denominational church in the world. With its Mardi-Gras style worship, its experientialism, and its lying signs and wonders, this spiritual virus has infected the whole body of Christ. The Takeover is a valuable resource for exposing this poison and offering the only serum for the cure. What's the church to do? The Pentecostal Takeover answers this question.
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Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2007, 11:17:11 PM »
Quote
On the topic at hand, has anyone read "The Pentecostal Takeover By Lee Stanford?"

Hi Robert,

I never heard about Lee Stanford and her book, "The Pentecostal Takeover".  The summary of her book does not surprise me since we already know what is happening in churches today.  The book might just explain what Lee saw in Pentecostal church. 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Robert Powell

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2007, 09:12:38 AM »
Hi Robert,

I never heard about Lee Stanford and her book, "The Pentecostal Takeover".  The summary of her book does not surprise me since we already know what is happening in churches today.  The book might just explain what Lee saw in Pentecostal church. 

Erik



 It seems to be right on target with what is taking place in the Church. You say we see, but it seems a lot of people don't see what is going on in the Church with Pentecostals. Some of it is shocking. Do you believe that Pentecostalism is the heresy of another gospel, or are you in the camp that believe these are bible believing christians? Because I think that is what this book points out. That it's so covered in diamonds as to deceive people into thinking it's all good.


 


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