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Author Topic: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?  (Read 31901 times)

Stan Pat

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Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« on: April 23, 2007, 04:42:36 PM »
Hi,
  I'm new here as I'm sure you know. I just wanted to ask what you all think about the new church dialogue between Pentecostals and those who hold to Reformed doctrines? Do you think it is productive that we become cozy with them or is this compromise as some have suggested? For those of you who don't know, Pentecostal worship places great emphasis on the workings of the Holy Spirit, who they claim often leads spontaneously and elicits strong emotions in Christians. Beliefs are often accompanied by speaking in tongues and a belief in miracle-working. Should we even be dialoguing with these Churches? A lot of people say we shouldn't. I'm wondering what would be the consensus here.

Thanks and I hope you had a good weekend.



Joshua Ashley

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 07:33:14 PM »
hi

not only would i not get cozy around them i wouldn't get cozy with those gettin cozy with the pentacostals.


1) what these so called prophets fall to relize is tounges is for a sighn for un-belivers

1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

what is a sighn?

when we see sighns on the interstate, we see one or two then when the exit comes or the reality it is no more sighn.

2) they claim to get on going prophices other than the bible.

Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3)they claim two baptism's one of water and one of the Holy Spirt, this two is wrong;

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

4) they claim that not only should you not question the "spirit" but if you do it is blasphemhy

thats not what the word of God says;

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 

5) they claim this giberishhh is a holy language and you get it when you get more of the spirt

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

so not only are they not godliy they are turning unto more ungodliness!!

you know what were to do about this?

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6) lieing is an abomination

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

that means when you see the apostatcy in your church you get out and flee to GOD

here is a study on the Abomination of desolation

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

beacause GOD IS going to bring judgement on the apostate church REV 17-18 and Matt 24

but the falling away ( what you are witnessing ) must come first

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7)tounges and not condeming the act of tounges or mircales is a doctrine of devils

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

and also;

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

those who speak in tounges are against Christ there are anti christ, false christ.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

8 ) they belive they can chose Christ.

when Holy scripture teaches GOD chooses us

Jhn 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Hbr 12:16  Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


 Hbr 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

we don't choose GOD he choose him a people

GOD IS going to bring judgement on these apostate churchs you should flee from there not only shouldn't we were commanded not to pray for them

they are saying thus saith the LORD and he never ever did they are liers and decivers but they want decive the elect

2Th 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.

again GOD is bring judgement on these liers, not only these but all who say thus saith the Lord and he never did
hes going to pour out plauges, judgement, death ect so should you be talking to them?


josh
Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Joshua Ashley

Joshua Ashley

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 07:43:16 PM »
hi

not only would i not get cozy around them i wouldn't get cozy with those gettin cozy with the pentacostals.


1) what these so called prophets fall to relize is tounges is for a sighn for un-belivers

1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

what is a sighn?

when we see sighns on the interstate, we see one or two then when the exit comes or the reality it is no more sighn.

2) they claim to get on going prophices other than the bible.

Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3)they claim two baptism's one of water and one of the Holy Spirt, this two is wrong;

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

4) they claim that not only should you not question the "spirit" but if you do it is blasphemhy

thats not what the word of God says;

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.  

5) they claim this giberishhh is a holy language and you get it when you get more of the spirt

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

so not only are they not godliy they are turning unto more ungodliness!!

you know what were to do about this?

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6) lieing is an abomination

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

that means when you see the apostatcy in your church you get out and flee to GOD

here is a study on the Abomination of desolation

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

beacause GOD IS going to bring judgement on the apostate church REV 17-18 and Matt 24

but the falling away ( what you are witnessing ) must come first

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7)tounges and not condeming the act of tounges or mircales is a doctrine of devils

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

and also;

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

those who speak in tounges are against Christ there are anti christ, false christ.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

8 ) they belive they can chose Christ.

when Holy scripture teaches GOD chooses us

Jhn 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Hbr 12:16  Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


 Hbr 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

we don't choose GOD he choose him a people

GOD IS going to bring judgement on these apostate churchs you should flee from there not only shouldn't we were commanded not to pray for them

they are saying thus saith the LORD and he never ever did they are liers and decivers but they want decive the elect

2Th 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.

again GOD is bring judgement on these liers, not only these but all who say thus saith the Lord and he never did
hes going to pour out plauges, judgement, death ect so should you be talking to them?


josh
Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Joshua Ashley

midas

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 12:07:09 AM »
Quote
Should we even be dialoguing with these Churches?

(Luk 21:20)  And when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded with armies, then know that its desolation is near (Luk 21:21)  Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter into it.

(Rev 18:4)  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

I believe God is telling us to come out of the church, so we should obey God - Has the church fallen? Gay pastors/bishops - It's OK to divorce and marry again - Some priest and Pastors that forgive sins - Women pastors - Speaking in tongues - Free will - Rock music in church- Not teaching about hell - Gimmicks to attack people to chruch instead of Gods word -   

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Pentecostals ? - speaking in tongues and a belief in miracle working? Free will? Deceived?

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 10:50:42 AM »
I don't think it's in our best interests to mix our Churches with Pentecostal Churches because doctrines have to get in the way. I believe doctrine is important. But I am told that I am looking at this the wrong way, and the different doctrines of our churches aren't essentials, as long as we all agree in Christ. So they think I am like a zealot because I think we should hold to doctrines and not mix with Pentecostal Churches. That's the way I think. They think a different way.

From what I gather, they seem to think that the unity of Churches is all that matters. The Pastor told me that unity is something God desires because it is the collective agreement that Jesus Christ is Lord. He said I was hung up on uniformity of what that belief entails (whatever that means). He said that many of us make that mistake thinking that unity equals uniformity of doctrine.  Who is right?

midas

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 12:21:37 AM »
Quote
Pastor told me that unity is something God desires because it is the collective agreement that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Thus says the Pastor as he puts words in Gods mouth = however not says God = Good example of what is going on in the church today, and a good example the churches are falling

Quote
I don't think it's in our best interests to mix our Churches with Pentecostal Churches

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing - Read/study the bible, read study the threads on this forum - then compare it to what your pastor says - it will not line up with what God says and that is extremly dangerous ... 

2 Timothy 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

God talks about doctrine here - and the differences

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 10:30:57 AM »

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing


What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?

Dwimble

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 03:59:49 PM »

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing


What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?

I can't speak for midas, but from my observation many who post on this forum believe some or much of the following: the church has completely fallen or is apostate, there are no longer any faithful churches, salvation has ended, all faithful Christians must flee the church, the church age has ended, and so on. There are of course variations, including the degree and extent to which the posters say some or all of those things have happened or are currently happening. Perhaps he was speaking from that sort of position.

Mike

Joshua Ashley

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 06:08:01 PM »
hello again stanpat


you said

Quote

I believe doctrine is important. But I am told that I am looking at this the wrong way, and the different doctrines of our churches aren't essentials, as long as we all agree in Christ.


biblical doctrine is very important, don't listen to anybody whos says different, and the different doctrines their churchs teach/belive is very important.
as long as they are from the holy scripture. i think i have posted how pentecostalism is a lie, and i think you see it as well if not you wouldn't be haveing a problem with it. pentecostalism= lie

1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

now if they are lieing, it is because the truth is not iin them. There truth has been removed and you should no longer be in that place, if you are a saint.

saying the LORD desires unity, and not to belive in these doctrines is wrong. could you imagine Paul telling the gentiles it was ok to mingle with those jews who said, yes Jesus Christ is Gods son, but you must also be circumcisied?

we are to question these so called christains;

Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

and also that very same church;

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

 Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus was telling the church at ephesus, that if they don't repent because they don't love him as they once did, he was going to remove his light. how much more saying thus saith the Lord, when he never did?

again lieing is an abomniation.

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Judaea being the church, when you see the church lieing, and repent not she is a harlot,

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

no once they start falling thats it they continually slip, fall, lie deeper into whoredom, bringing there destroction on them quickly. whats there destuction?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


 2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



and also


Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


stan pat i strongly urge you to read ;

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

and i agree with midas, i belive there is abounding apostacy in every one of the churchs via satan has been loosed and we are called out of these whores (falling churchs) and i think we are in THE Great Tribulation!!!

now that i have left babylon, and i say to myself how in the world did it take me so long to see this apostacy in our so called reformed church. but it wasn't me but only by the grace of almighty GOD, thanks be to him for opening my eyes

even so, come Lord Jesus

Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Joshua Ashley

midas

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2007, 11:25:11 PM »
Quote
What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?

I be shocked if you found a "very" biblical church = I believe the churches will fall gradually, however not all churches will fall at the same time - Not many if any faithful churches left

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2007, 09:07:44 AM »
  Talking to my Church elders, they say that Pentecostalism is not another religion, but the same as ours. They feel that they are just not understanding scripture correctly, but are still good Christians. That's why they want to have a dialogue with them. To try and help them understand correctly. I don't know what to say to that. Is this an accurate assessment, a noble cause, and am I just being too judgmental?  Your help is appreciated.

Deuce Johnson

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2007, 01:45:17 PM »
 In my view, yes, it is a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. Some of these articles might help you.

    http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?pentecostal

    http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?charismatic

 If I were you, I would stop listening to the Elders and Pastor of your Church, because they sound like they are already compromising the gospel.

rebekahsmom

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2007, 02:48:48 PM »
They are no true christians that have no understanding, because God reveals himself to those that are his.  To his elects and his elects only will he reveal his truth to.

Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal  [him].

Gal 1:14  And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Phl 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

And by perfect meaning this so no one misunderstands me.
2 Sa 22:33God [is] my strength [and] power: and he maketh my way perfect.

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father. 
1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father. 1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.  Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


And this next verse I like and speaks for its self.
2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 


I hope I have helped some.  If I did any wrong I ask for correction always.
Rhonda

 
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Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Amos 5:24
"But let judgement rain down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

Dwimble

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2007, 04:04:57 PM »
They are no true christians that have no understanding, because God reveals himself to those that are his.  To his elects and his elects only will he reveal his truth to...

Exactly right, but there are also no true Christians who have all or perfect understanding.

This post isn't directed at you specifically, rebekahsmom, so please don't think that...nor am I by any means trying to defend Pentecostalism, God forbid. But we have to be careful when condemning or speaking against a particular heretical doctrine that we don't make the leap to condemn those who may be in the midst of a group or church holding to that doctrine, and who in ignorance may be holding to some of it themselves. We should attempt to correct them with Godliness, kindness and gentleness.

In my own case, I first came to know the Lord about 25 years ago at an arminian, charismatic, Methodist church. In ignorance I accepted much of the garbage that they fed me every week, but over a period of a few years I came to realize that what they were teaching wasn't true. As I came to understand God's sovereignty and grace I knew they were wrong, but having zero exposure to reformed churches, reformed writings, or anything else of that nature (I didn't even know those things existed), I thought I was the only one who knew the truth of His sovereignty, election, and so on. I went through a terrible, lonely time, believing that there was no one else who believed the truth, and consequently I constantly questioned myself...how could it be possible that "no one else" knew? How could it be that "everyone else" was wrong and I was right?

Eventually my wife and I left that church, not being able in good conscience to stay there any longer, and after a few years of searching we finally found a church that was strongly preaching about grace, election, and the sovereignty of God. I felt so relieved to find that at last. But, they were Dispensationalist. I knew nothing about Dispensationalism, having never consciously heard that word before, so I listened to what they said, but I had learned my lesson from my experience in the previous church and thus viewed the doctrines preached with a degree of skepticism and always searched out the truth. Eventually I took my wife and I out of there too, having concluded that even though they held strongly to God's sovereignty, election, and other key doctrines, Dispensationalism was wrong and it was too prevalent there for us to stay. It was a tough decision but had to be done. After searching again for a few more years we eventually found a solid, reformed church that is preaching the gospel and reaching out with charity to the lost and hurting. But, of course, if I ever concluded that they were fallen or preaching a false gospel then I wouldn't hesitate to take us out of there too.

As for what is going on now, we are called to the mission field, I have started seminary to get better equipped, and our tentative plan is to move to China in about five years or so, God willing. We have a heart for children and will most likely be working with orphans, because the need there is so great.

All that was to illustrate: at what point in the last 25 years should someone have "rebuked me" for my heresy, following a false gospel, or the like? I loved God, sought His truth, and every step of the way as He revealed truth to me I would embrace it and move forward. I would have LOVED someone who knew the truth to, with kindness, discuss those various things with me and show me where I was mixed up. I never had that, so the Lord saw fit to bring me through all those things without anyone else involved.

Mike

Joshua Ashley

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Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2007, 06:47:40 PM »
hello again stanpat

speaking in tounges is absoulty not biblical

i grow up as a young child in a pentecostalism churchs, i don't remember anything much. but my dad spoke in tounges, for hours at a time. and only by the grace of GOD did he slowly but surly pull him out of that into reformed doctrines.

pentecostalism is a doctrin of devils, a lie, an abomniation

we are not to try and help them we arn't even to be around them


2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?




1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 


like what mike said GOD will draw an elect out of heresy like he did my dad and mike. but they should be reproved then rebuked then seperate yourself from them. thats what is wrong with everyone they think love is not telling them the truth. thats not what love is.

petecostalism is another religion

Pro 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.
Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Joshua Ashley

 


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