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Author Topic: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse  (Read 30458 times)

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2003, 09:46:40 PM »
Judy,

I'm sorry your frustration level has risen to the point where you will no longer answer any of my posts, but as you well know answering someones message is strictly voluntary and if that is what you want to do that is your perrogative. I never try to shove my beliefs down anyone throat, I simply lay it on the table along with the Scriptures that I believe relate to it and the rest is up to others if they want to rebut it. I also don't get all up in arms if someone disagrees with me, as if I am the only one who exegetes the Bible correctly, what I do is to continue to search the Bible to see if I can find anything else that relates, sometimes I do or think I do according to my detractors and sometimes I don't. It is as simple as that. Also, I'm sorry that you see things so lobsided as you seem to think that everyone else has behaved honourably, except me. I have been called blasphemous, arrogant, proud, whiner, you name it and all for what? Just because I disagree with Tony Warren once in a while? Just because people disagree with the Scriptures I use to defend my views and in their eyes do not relate or are misapplied? Just because I defend myself from personal attack and don't roll over to let people with no contribution to the discussion other than to agree with Tony Warren, take potshots at me, just to see if I will retaliate and they can get the thread deleted? (Which has happened more than once.)

Even this discussion abot the rider of the white horse, you all are acting like it is blasphemy to believe that the rider is Satan? The fact that if it is Christ or Satan doesn't change my views on the GT period one bit. The Bible is clear that Satan will overcome the saints during the GT. The Bible is clear that it is God who has given Satan this power for a short season. The Bible is clear that all the elect will have been sealed before He looses Satan. So why are we all up in arms just because I am not convinced that the rider is Christ. Will we lose our salvation over a misunderstanding about eschotology? We have been sealed and Satan has been loosed and nothing will be allowed to snatch us out of God's hand.

John 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

So why are we all up in arms over this issue? I believe it goes much deeper than just disagreement of beliefs, it has become a personal conflict and when it becomes personal, it makes it almost impossible to hold a civil discussion about the Scriptures and that is a sad state for a Christian group to be in.

Tony S

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2003, 01:05:08 PM »
P.S Judy I forgot to address this:

>>Just like 'to and fro' merely describes an action, and has no exclusive association with good or evil , with Satan or Christ, with believers or non-believers, this new phrase  you're presenting --
'was given'  simply  describes an action.  
I'm sure you get the point (as I do acknowledge your intelligence, which makes this all the worse and leaves you with little excuse for your manipulation of Scriptures).  I also recognize that you'll never concede that the phrase 'was given' proves nothing, and continue to avoid those things that are relevent to the topic at hand.<<


Yes those phrases describe an action, but we are not looking just at the action tense of the verse but also the subject, so although the action itself has no connection with good or evil, the subject establishes that connection, so that leaves you with little excuse for calling it manipulation.

Example:

Revelation 13:7  And it was given [action] unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome[[action] them: and power was given[action] him [Satan, evil] over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This action is very much connected to evil as are many of the other verses I used in the post that you reffer to. The same thing applies to the phrase "to and fro", although it describes an action when it is used in connection with the GT period, it becomes identified with that subject.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:[subject] many shall run to and fro,[action] and knowledge shall be increased.

etc.... The phrase"was given" proves nothing, I admit, but in connection with the power that Satan was given by God, it speaks volumes about the nature of the GT period to me, I don't know about you?

Tony S



   

bloodstone

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2003, 07:15:34 AM »
Bloodstone,

I am sorry, but I was really busy with moving and trying to settle down at my new home.
So, BloodStone, please try to register if you want to join Tribulationwatch and of course, please read the guideline.  

Erik Diamond


I already registered at your site and cannot register again. You know how yahoo works, right? When I go to your board it says "Pending Member" which means that you have my registration and have not verified me yet. There is nothing I can do until you take action at yahoo to give me access.

PS I will hereafter respond in private mail here so as not to bore everyone in Tony's forum with this.

bloodstone

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2003, 07:34:56 AM »
Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:[subject] many shall run to and fro,[action] and knowledge shall be increased.

etc.... The phrase"was given" proves nothing, I admit, but in connection with the power that Satan was given by God, it speaks volumes about the nature of the GT period to me, I don't know about you?

Mr. Tony S.
  It may speak volumes about the great tribulation period, but it speaks nothing about the rider on the white horse.

 Against my better judgement, I'll add my two cents to this. The scriptures give no support to Satan riding on a white horse. You are taking liberties with God's word in making such claims. Christ rides upon the white horse with a bow to shoot arrows into the enemies of God. No other in scripture is seen upon a white horse. You at least have to recognize that. And God also shows christ riding that horse with a bow, and receiving a kingdom. In other words, was given a crown. You at least have to recognize that.

 Psalm 45:3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
 4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
 5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
 6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Christ ascended to the throne of glory, and his throne is for ever. The scriptures witness against your interpretation as a private interpretation of the rider on the white horse with a bow. It is quite obviously Christ as he is given a throne and a kingdom. Even I can understand Christ being given a crown, but you find it unconvincing even when God says Christ rides upon the white horse and has a bow. What color horse do you think Christ rides upon? Doesn't Revelation 19 interpret that horse as being white?

 Revelation 19
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

This is one christian who thinks that the bible speaks for itself. The rider in the book of Revelation upon the white horse is Christ.

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2003, 12:28:52 PM »
>>Mr. Tony S.
  It may speak volumes about the great tribulation period, but it speaks nothing about the rider on the white horse.<<


Bloodstone,

Thank you first of all for one of the few posts that have dealt with this topic in a civilized
manner, without any need for throwing around names, so I will answer your post in like manner, this is the way it should work.

I fully understand that there is no other example of Satan riding a white and that Christ is seen riding a white horse in Rev.19, although the Psalm 45 passage does not mention a white horse, but be that as it may, by all appearances it should be Christ riding this white horse in Rev.6.

What I am arguing is that this passage seems to be set in the context of the GT period, just look at the verses that follow.

 Revelation 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

Revelation 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Everything about this chapter is filled with descriptios of the GT period. Moreover the opening of the seals are a fulfillment of Daniel 12:

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9-10  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

That is the context of these seals that are being opened in Rev.6 and in the following chapters that are dealing with the trumpets and the vials of wrath. So then if this rider of the white horse is set in the context of the opening of the seals of Scriture about the GT period, that were formerly sealed in the book of Daniel, then there is reason to believe that the rider might not be Christ. Because everything that has been revealed about the nature of the GT period goes contrary to the idea that Christ goes forward conquering during the GT. On the contrary, it is Satan who is spoken of as conquering during that time.

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Have you thought through what the implications of this is? The saints are the body of Christ, this means that if the body goes down the head goes down in defeat with it. Satan is not only going after the body (saints) but also Christ Himself.

Daniel 8:11  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The prince of the host or army is Christ and in this exalted position that Satan has been "given", he has magnified himself even right up to the Prince of the body of believers.

Daniel 8:23-24  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.  And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

This is something that has never happened in the history of this world, that Satan would be allowed to "conquer" the body of Christ, except in the person of Job as an example of the GT. Satan is spoken of as a king in the above passage, that means that since he has "conquered" the saints, by reason of conquest, he will be the king, with a kingdom during this short period and a king by necessity wears a crown. Not only that but since Satan is victorious agains't the saints he might be riding the defeated foes horse. I know we Christians don't like to think about the implications of Satan being given power by God to defeat the saints, because it means the we are in defeat during this time, but we don't feel like we have been defeated. The reason for this is because this is a spiritual war, all this is taking place in the spiritual realm. This is not a literal white horse this rider is riding, it is symbolical. It is symbolizing power and righteousness and this is how Satan will come during the GT. He comes with power and a fake righteousness and as the passage above indicates, he understands dark sentences which are a refference to the Bible.

Psalms 78:2  I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Proverbs 1:6  To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

This "appearant" righteousness, is symolized by the color white, which is why I used the 2Corith.11 passage, because even though it is a false riighteousness, it will appear to be genuine and if it will fool many, that means that those that are fooled see white.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Matthew 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I will concede one thing, if the verse in Rev.6:2 is not set in the GT period there is no doubt that it is Christ riding the white horse, but if it is set in the GT period I don't believe it could be Christ by reason of the nature of the GT. And by the context in which it is written, that is it is followed by passages that are describing details that take place during the GT, then that is why I believe that it could be Satan. So these are my reasons for believing that, If you disagree, you disagree, no reason for people to become indignant, right?

One last point, the passage in Rev.19 is set in the context of the GT period being over and this is when Christ will come, symbolically riding on a white horse having the final victory over Satan and his kingdom.

Revelation 19:7-8  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Daniel 8:25  And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The ultimate victory ride is ours, in the mean time we have to except what the Bible says about Satan's victory over the saints during the GT period. Don't underestimate the importance this period plays in the events that lead up to the return of the Lord.

Tony S

Sandy

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2003, 01:10:08 PM »
Tony S.

Quote:  What I am arguing is that this passage seems to be set in the context of the GT period, just look at the verses that follow.

I don't believe we can make the argument that these verses in Rev. 6 are speaking of only a period of time called GT.  

Revelation 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

When was peace taken from the earth?  Haven't we always been killing one another?

Revelation 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

Balances refer to honesty and righteousness.  God gave command from the beginning saying:  

Lev. 19:35-37  Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.  Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.  Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

Revelation 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Are not oil and wine symbolic of believers?  If this were only speaking of a time when the saints are to be defeated, why would it say HURT NOT these?

Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The description here sounds more like Satan as the rider.  Throughout history he (Satan) has had power to destroy.  Before the cross he had greater power, and after he has been loosed he will have greater power once again.  

Quote:  Everything about this chapter is filled with descriptios of the GT period. Moreover the opening of the seals are a fulfillment of Daniel 12:

Why do you associate everything with this time period called GT?  It seems as though you are trying to make the book of Revelation chronological.   According to Scripture we have been in the end times or last days since the cross.

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Quote:  Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9-10  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Couldn't these verses in Daniel just as easily be speaking of the the whole NT era?  Or, Judgment Day itself?  Meaning that knowledge will increase when Christ opens the seal giving understanding to believer.  Only then will the saints know perfectly, because the Word of Truth will be revealed, but the wicked will not understand, even though they are standing before the Judgment Throne.  The wicked and  those who think they are children of God will be standing there amazed, some saying:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Quote:  Daniel 8:11  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
The prince of the host or army is Christ and in this exalted position that Satan has been "given", he has magnified himself even right up to the Prince of the body of believers.

You want to make this a GT prophecy, but when was the daily sacrifice taken away?  It was by the once and for all sacrifice of Christ Himself that the daily sacrifice was removed forever.  Satan seemed to have won when Christ was nailed to the cross.  That's why it says the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Quote:  That is the context of these seals that are being opened in Rev.6 and in the following chapters that are dealing with the trumpets and the vials of wrath. So then if this rider of the white horse is set in the context of the opening of the seals of Scriture about the GT period, that were formerly sealed in the book of Daniel, then there is reason to believe that the rider might not be Christ. Because everything that has been revealed about the nature of the GT period goes contrary to the idea that Christ goes forward conquering during the GT. On the contrary, it is Satan who is spoken of as conquering during that time.

Why do you insist that the seals are opened only during the GT period?  Haven't we seen and read throughout Scripture of the wrath of God falling on mankind in various ways and times throughout the building of the KIngdom through His church?  Yes, it does appear that at the very end of time Satan overcomes and conquers the saints of God.  But this time is very brief, and immediately following this conquering the history of mankind comes to a close.

Rev. 11:11,12  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.  

The seals in Rev. 6 represent the wrath of God falling upon the earth, on account of sin, since the cross of Christ.  These four horses and their riders represent these various judgments.  The fifth seal vss. 9-11 show us a picture of the saints who remained faithful even unto death.  This could be both physical death and spiritual death.  The sixth seal is a picture of Judgment Day itself.

Then when the seventh seal is opened we are introduced to various trumpets sounding from heaven which again begin by showing us the varying judgments, because of sin, from God, that have fallen, are fallen, and will fall upon mankind throughout the building of the Kingdom through the church.  The third trumpet for instance tells about Satan falling from heaven and turning the pure Word into Wormwood through his false gospel.  Then the fifth trumpet sounds and we see Christ opening the bottomless pit to Satan's disciples who have been locked there since the cross of Christ.  

Then in chap 10 we read again of the Judge of heaven and earth.  These seven trumpets are now referred to as seven thunders.  Vs. 4 says "Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them."  But the seventh trumpet or thunder has not yet sounded.  Then in vs. 7  "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Rev. chapter 11 shows us the faithful witnesses going into all the world with the gospel of Christ.  And how through their testimony many are brought into the kingdom.  Then we are told the time comes when their testimony has been finished, they are killed, and they ascend up to heaven in bodily resurrection after 3 and1/2 days.  Then the seventh angel sounds his trumpet and the end comes.  

Quote:  It is symbolizing power and righteousness and this is how Satan will come during the GT. He comes with power and a fake righteousness and as the passage above indicates, he understands dark sentences which are a refference to the Bible.

Satan has been coming in this manner all along.  It is not only during a relatively short time of GT that he comes with falsehood.

The book of Revelation is not merely speaking of the time of great tribulation.  It is telling us the whole story of God's Covenant of Redemption for His elect.  It is not chronological, and it seems to depict the same accounts through various different ways.  For instance chapter 7 speaks of the whole embodiment of believers through 144,000 Jews and a great multitude (Gentiles) which cannot be numbered.  Both of these dipict all the saints of heaven.  The book is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and not simply the revelation of the time of great tribulation.    

        
  

  





Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2003, 11:14:47 PM »
>> I don't believe we can make the argument that these verses in Rev. 6 are speaking of only a period of time called GT.  They are speaking of all of human history.

Revelation 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

When was peace taken from the earth?  Haven't we always been killing one another?<<   

   
sandybisbee,

I don't think this is talking about political or earthly peace, nor physical bloodsheding.
I believe this is speaking about the spiritual peace that can only be found in Christ. That is the peace that is removed during the GT period.

Isaiah 57:19  I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

Isaiah 57:21  There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Ephesians 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The removal of peace is the equivelent of the removal of salvation during the GT period.
Likewise the killing is talking about hatred and not necessarily physical killing, although there will be some of that too.

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Matthew 5:21-22  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

>>Why do you associate everything with this time period called GT?  It seems as though you are trying to make the book of Revelation chronological.  According to Scripture we have been in the end times or last days since the cross.<<

I don't know if you have noticed, that is the predominate theme of the book of Revelation, Matt.24, Mark13, Luke21, most of the book of Daniel, Amos 8, Joel 2, etc....
This is no insignificant time, as it preceeds the return of the Lord Jesus. That is why God wrote so extensively about it.

Matthew 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Daniel 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

>>Couldn't these verses in Daniel just as easily be speaking of the very end of time?  Or, Judgment Day itself?  Meaning that only at the very end of human history, even though knowledge will increase throughout history, only then will the saints know perfectly, because they have been purified, but the wicked will not understand, even though they are standing before the Judgment Throne.  The wicked and  those who think they are children of God will be standing there amazed, some saying:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?<<


No, the Bible is clear that only after this period of  tribulation known as the GT, will come the end and the second coming of Christ.

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

>>Quote:  Daniel 8:11  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
The prince of the host or army is Christ and in this exalted position that Satan has been "given", he has magnified himself even right up to the Prince of the body of believers.

You want to make this a GT prophecy, but when was the daily sacrifice taken away?  It was by the once and for all sacrifice of Christ Himself that the daily sacrifice was removed forever.  Satan seemed to have won when Christ was nailed to the cross.  That's why it says the place of his sanctuary was cast down.<<


The daily is taken away at the time that the abomination of desolation is set up, that is when Satan takes his place in the temple of God.

 Daniel 11:31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Matthew 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Revelation 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Whether you receive it or not these are all GT prophecies.

>>Why do you insist that the seals are opened only during the GT?  Haven't we seen and read throughout Scripture of the wrath of God falling on mankind in various ways and times?  Yes, it does appear that at the very end of time Satan overcomes and conquers the saints of God.  But this time is very brief, and immediately following this conquering the history of mankind comes to a close.   <<

It's not me that insists that the seals are open during the GT, it is the Bibles that says so.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
   
Daniel 12:8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.   Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

>>The book of Revelation is not merely speaking of the time of great tribulation.  It is telling us the whole story of God's Covenant of Redemption for His elect.  It is not chronological, and it seems to depict the same accounts through various different ways.  For instance chapter 7 speaks of the whole embodiment of believers through 144,000 Jews and a great multitude (Gentiles) which cannot be numbered.  Both of these dipict all the saints of heaven.  The book is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and not simply the revelation of the time of great tribulation. <<

It is true that it is not exclusively taking about the GT period, for example it talks about the binding of Satan (Rev.20:1-2), which happened at the cross and it speaks about the New Heaven and the New Earth (Rev. 21:1-2), but you have to be honest and admit the the GT is the predominate theme.

Thank you for the manner in which you presented you rebuttals, even though I disagree with most of your conclusions, you have alot more class than most of US here.

Tony S  

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2003, 09:20:00 AM »
Quote
sandybisbee,

I don't think this is talking about political or earthly peace, nor physical bloodsheding.
I believe this is speaking about the spiritual peace that can only be found in Christ. That is the peace that is removed during the GT period.

Absolutely agree. But we don't even have to go this far because as you and others have pointed out,  Matthew 24 makes it clear that this great tribulation is not judgment day. How clear is Matthew 24:29 saying Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light? That in itself should make clear the great tribulation is not judgment day.

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2004, 10:09:58 PM »
Greetings

I know there has been previous discussion regarding the four horseman in Revelation 6.  Recently, in reviewing Zechariah it appears to me that Yahshua is riding the red horse.  Behold:

Zech 1:7-8
Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

The man riding the red horse stood among the myrtle trees.

Zech 1:9-10
Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be .  And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

The man that stood among teh myrtle trees answered!

Zech 1:11
And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

They answered the angel of the Lord that stood among the myrtle trees.

Zech 1:12
Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

The angel of the Lord (Yahshua) cries for mercy for Jerusalem.

Zech 1:13-17
And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.  And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.  Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

Clearly the above is a prophecy of the visitation.

Zech 1:18-19
Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.  And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

IMO these horns are equivalent to the 7 heads in Revelation.  Yet this scripture speaks of only 4 for that is the time period of where Zechariah lived.  1st horn symbolizing Egypt, 2nd Assyria, 3rd Babylon and presently 4th Persia.  But I digress....

Rev 6:4   And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Mat 10:34   Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.  

It appears the red horse could certainly symbolize the blood of the new covenant?

Peace,
Layla

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2004, 05:28:20 AM »
Greetings Layla,

I think you're on to something.  I've had similar thoughts, and went back to briefly review the earlier 'Horseman' thread.  Here's excerpts from my earlier post which compliment your views, and will hopefully help generate further discussion:

[size=1/2](Excerpts from Reply #78 on: August 30, 2003,  on 'The Four Horsemen of Relelvations' thread)[/size]
Quote
I think we’ve been conditioned  to some extent to think of the red horseman (as well as the pale and black horsemen) in terms of evil or Satan, because of the devastation they bring.  

Rev 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


(Upon further study, please note what these passages in Jeremiah and Ezekiel say:

Jer 8:10-13,16
11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them....
16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.


 
I think we need to be very cautious here …  when God says He has done something, we cannot rightly attribute it to Satan without very clear indication.  True enough, Satan is loosed by God to deceive; however Satan's wrath is directed towards the elect of God, while the unsaved are among his own forces.

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



So, it appears that the red horseman signifies the end of salvation (no peace).  And I think most are agreed  that all the horsemen in Rev 6 fulfill some aspects of God's overall plan for mankind.  Only I tend to agree with you Bradley, that God is not using Satan, but rather his own messengers.
Satan’s goal is take out his wrath on true believers – not on the unsaved or false prophets & teacher in apostate churches who are enemies of God, and already in Satan's corner.  I believe this is God’s ‘righteous’ wrath we’re dealing with here, carried out by His forces.

I also think the verses Kennedy introduced in Zech 1:8-11 regarding a man on a red horse, have relevance to the horsemen in Rev 6.   The man riding the red horse in Zecharia had other horses with him; besides the red horse he was riding, he had a herd of more red horses, white horses and speckled horses (is speckled the same color as pale in Rev 6:8?  Need to look it up) -- all except black.

There are things about Zech 1:8-17 that I'd like to get feedback on…  It appears that the man on the red horse in verse 8, is the same  as the ‘angel of the Lord’.  Or am I misreading this?

Zech 1:8-13
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, will shew thee what these be

(Zecharias is addressing the man on the horse, standing among the myrtle trees?)
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
(The man on the red horse is answering, making refererence to the other horses?)
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
(The horses themselves are answering Zecharias’ question?)
12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
(The man on the red horse, is also the angel of the Lord?)
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
(The Lord answers the angel of the Lord?).
Another question…

We know ‘angel’ could  be best translated  ‘messenger’.  I  wonder who this particular angel is.  Whoever he is, verses 12 & 13 make it clear he doesn’t belong to Satan.  There is even some suggestion that this angel could be Christ.  Notice these verses (and others) which also deal with ‘comfort’, as applied to David  -- often a picture of Christ – as well as to true believers in Christ:

Ps 71:21
21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort me on every side.

Isa 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

2 Cor 1:3-4
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

John 14:16
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;



As noted, all the horsemen in Rev 6 appear to have been sent from heaven by God to carry out specific missions, in accordance to God's perfect plan for mankind since the beginning.  Their missions/warfare, results in devastation to apostate churches/the unsaved.  However, in the sense that we are taught to pray 'thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven', we should perhaps regard these horsemen in Rev 6 in the same light.

It boils down to spiritual warfare between principalities & powers in high places -- between forces of Good and evil, since the beginning, but escalating and culminates according to God’s set times/seasons, with God's forces triumphant!


So Layla, are you saying the red horseman  and the angel of the Lord in the Zecharias passage are one and the same entity, or two separate entities?  I'm not sure, but definitely agree with you that the red horseman in the Zecharias passage appears to represent Christ, and may therefore apply to the red horseman in Revelations

judy
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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2004, 10:39:03 AM »
Greetings Judy

Yes I am thinking this and I find it interesting that the color red (adom) represents blood. The angel of Yahweh, also the man standing amongst the myrtle trees could very well be Yahshua. It is He who pleads for Zion and who stands amongst the myrtle trees. Something else interesting is myrtle trees were used to build the booths at the Feast of the Tabernacles. It would seem that Yahshua is jealous for Zion and the symbolism  could suggest His intercession as the advocate.  The red horses could then symbolize the blood of Yahshua or the blood of the martyrs whose time has come to be vindicated.  Interestingly enough after the seals depicting the the four horseman comes the fifth seal.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Revelation 6:9-11

So it is revealed that the judgements of the horsemen of the seals is not upon the heathen but upon Zion because Yahshua declared they must still wait awhile until their blood is avenged and this signifies the trial depicted by prior seals is upon Zion for her disobedience and this conforms to 1 Peter 4:17.

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17

What confuses me is this:   The chariots and horses of Zechariah represent the Spirit of Yahwey that prepares and liberates Zion in the time of the end as it did during the ancient times.

“In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.” Zechariah 6:2-5

The four chariots that came forth from Yahweh represent the fear of Yahweh; they are the winds that sweep through society to awaken His people and deliver them. The winds are released by the four angels of Revelation chapter seven.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.  Revelation 7:1

However, they are not released until Revelation Chapter 9:

"One woe is past; and , behold, there come two woes more hereafter.  And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.  And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.  Revelation 9:12-15

If then these four winds (four horses) are not released until the sixth trump, then what about the first four seals?  My question then becomes are these four horses depicted in Zechariah different from the four horses in Revelation 6.  Are they two different armies?  Is one the army of locusts (the horses of the seals) which come to try, test and purge the righteous, while the other army is that of Yahshua (the horses of Zechariah) which comes in the form of Judgment upon the heathen?

Just some thoughts
Peace,
Layla

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2004, 03:44:59 AM »
Quote
Yes I am thinking this and I find it interesting that the color red (adom) represents blood. ...

The red horses could then symbolize the blood of Yahshua or the blood of the martyrs whose time has come to be vindicated.

Layla,  I was thinking red may symbolize war?
Also, given your comments and my own (limited) study on the red horseman, he really does appear to symbolize Christ... but not during the period of GT.  Instead I think it reflects the period of his first coming to defeat Satan at the cross.  This also marks the fall of Israel as the ‘chosen’ people, replaced with the  NT church, pitting brother against brother, so to speak.  Consider these verses:

Rev 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Matt 10:34-38
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.



Quote
Interestingly enough after the seals depicting the the four horseman comes the fifth seal.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Revelation 6:9-11

So it is revealed that the judgements of the horsemen of the seals is not upon the heathen but upon Zion because Yahshua declared they must still wait awhile until their blood is avenged and this signifies the trial depicted by prior seals is upon Zion for her disobedience and this conforms to 1 Peter 4:17.

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17

Assuming the order of the opening of the seals are sequential, representing the order of their fulfillment or occurrence in time, then this would represent all martyred saints throughout time, even before the cross.  So while the '‘judgement’ spoken of here would include those who think they represent the kingdom of God (i.e. Scribes & Pharisees in OT, and apostate churches of today)  it would include others as well– like the Romans who persecuted the NT Christains, and the many martydoms occuring (not so much in America yet), in other countries  like China, the Sudan, Ethiopia, etc.   Of course, as you note, it will culminate just before Christ’s return, with judgments against modern apostate churches who have fallen from Grace.


Quote
What confuses me is this:   The chariots and horses of Zechariah represent the Spirit of Yahwey that prepares and liberates Zion in the time of the end as it did during the ancient times.

“In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.” Zechariah 6:2-5

The four chariots that came forth from Yahweh represent the fear of Yahweh; they are the winds that sweep through society to awaken His people and deliver them. The winds are released by the four angels of Revelation chapter seven.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.  Revelation 7:1

I think we need to determine what the ‘wind’ symbolizes; does anyone know?  I’m not sure, but it sounds ominous, and seems to mark the beginning of the GT period.  Especially given verses 2 & 3 that follow:

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Since Christ  -- the Lamb of God, is the only one found worthy to open the seals, I believe He is the angel who ascends from the east, instructing the other 4 angels to prepare for judgments against apostate churches.  At the same,  the ‘sealing’ of the elect is also accomplished by these four angels.  So I understand what you’re saying, though instead of ‘deliverance’,  I would say ‘protection’.    I think this is reflected in the message given to the faithful church at Smyna,  from which we may draw strength and encouragement:

Rev 2:8-11
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Quote
However, they are not released until Revelation Chapter 9:

"One woe is past; and , behold, there come two woes more hereafter.  And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.  And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.  Revelation 9:12-15

If then these four winds (four horses) are not released until the sixth trump, then what about the first four seals?  My question then becomes are these four horses depicted in Zechariah different from the four horses in Revelation 6.  Are they two different armies?  Is one the army of locusts (the horses of the seals) which come to try, test and purge the righteous, while the other army is that of Yahshua (the horses of Zechariah) which comes in the form of Judgment upon the heathen?

That's what I was saying, I think they actually were  'released'  but assigned the task oof ‘sealing’ the elect of God, in preparation for the coming judgements against the unfaithful church.   Satan has also already been loosed before this 6th trumpet, (maybe why the ‘winds’ were stopped earlier?), and has begun his campaign to take over the churches and persecute/kill/silence’ the elect of God.  Then maybe it’s here with the 6th trump that God's wrath begins to fall against apostate churches.  

As for the ‘heathen’, their judgment comes with the last trump and the actual end (destruction) of the earth.

Matt 25:30-41
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ...
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ...
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This is also when the deliverence that you spoke of earlier actually occurs,  -- at the very end when all the elect of God are caught up and transformed!  The above reference to the 'four winds' suggests involvement again by the 4 angels mentioned earlier.

Just more thoughts; hope this helps.

judy
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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2004, 04:49:32 PM »
There has been mention of the white horsemen of revelation chapter 6 referring to Satan. This is a teaching of the dispensational theologians which cannot be supported. Basically this doctrine says that the other horses look evil, so the white horse must be evil. There is no more proof than that.


If the rider on the white horse is Christ, When/What is he conquering to conquer? I don't understand.


andreas

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2004, 11:42:20 PM »
<<<If the rider on the white horse is Christ, When/What is he conquering to conquer? I don't understand.>>>

In Revelation 5:5, we are told Christ has conquered.Conquered what?The cross of Golgotha.In 6:2, we are told the rider on the white horse is conquering and to conquer.Conquering and to conquer what?The conquest of the cross is being carried on now .In 19:13, He is clothed in a garment soaked in the blood of His enemies.He is going to conquer all His enemies on the day of judgement.The book is on the victory of Christ and His church.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2004, 05:03:48 AM »

If the rider on the white horse is Christ, When/What is he conquering to conquer? I don't understand.

The "when" is at the cross. The "what" is the power of Satan over the elect. We are the great army, the children which the Lord has given him.

 Hebrews 2:13-15
   "And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

The word conquer is usually translated overcome. So this is talking about the spiritual warfare which Christ accomplished by his death, and how his spiritual army (which we are) go forth conquering or overcoming in him. Our warfare is against the antichrist. Spiritual rulers in high places. And when we go forth overcoming the antichrist, that is Christ's kingdom overcoming or conquering. And it will conquer.

 1st John 4:3-4
   "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world".

The same word conquering that God used is translated overcoming. Christ extends his kingdom through the Church. This is how Christ goes forth conquering and to conquer.

 Matthew 16:18-19
   "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".

Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

 


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