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Author Topic: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse  (Read 30459 times)

judykanova

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2003, 05:21:56 AM »
Quote from Tony Silva:
Quote
I have posted Scripture where white horses are associated with the phrases "walking to and fro" and "get thee hence". Both of these phrases can be associated with evil.

The operative word is ‘can’…. far from convincing when you consider that these phrases have no inherent connection to anyone or anything, but merely describe a action.

First, let’s consider the phrase ‘to and from’:

Gen 8:7

7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

2 Kings 4:35

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

2 Chron 16:9

9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.


There are tons of other verses with the phrase ‘to and fro’,  that have nothing to do with Satan, but merely describe the action of going ‘to and fro’.   Although you neglected to mention this fact,  you did at least acknowledge that even the phrase  ‘get thee hence’ has no consistent connection to Satan.  Hopefully you can see that this does not prove your point.

Also, since neither phrase are in the verse in question – Rev 6:2, I fail to see any real connection or relevence to the issue at hand.


You also quoted Zechariah 1:11
Quote
Zechariah 1:11  And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest

Also notice that when these horses are going to and fro, all the earth sitteth still and is at rest. What does God mean by that? The GT period is spoken of as a sabbath….

Let’s consider the Zechariah passage in context...

First of all, these horses were sent forth by God….  not by Satan:

Zech 1:10
And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.



Secondly, there is no ‘rider’ upon a white horse here,   therefore no 1:1 correspondence can be made with respect to Rev 6:2; this passage is simply not comparable.


Thirdly, the period in view does not appear to be  that of GT:

Zech 1:12-13, 16-17

12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words….
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.


This sounds more like a prophecy concerning the coming Messiah --  the line of David, who, by the cross, would  restore the true Israel to God.   Whereas the G.T. is not spoken of as a time of mercy or restoration.  Nor is it spoken of in terms 70 year.  But rather the GT is spoken of in terms of  3 ½ years (or weeks) or 42 months or 1260 days, not 70 years.   If anything 70 years may possibly refer with the entire NT period (e.g.  7 years  or  7 days ).   The side-bar regarding the Sabbath, also has no bearing on the verse in question – Rev 6:2.


Quote in response to matt205
Quote
If you want verses like the one you are asking for, your being lazy, because God hides truth in the Scriptures and it is our privilege to find it and not expect for God to hit us between the eyes with it.

So asking for biblical justification warrants your calling a person names like lazy?   Is this because  the requested verses  are ‘hidden’,  something you prefer to keep to yourself, or simply non-existent?


Quote
Also one last refference to horses during the GT period.

Revelation 9:7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Revelation 9:11  And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Obviously these locusts represent Satan and his demons because they came out of the bottomless pit, notice the similar language to Rev. 6,

Yes, this particular passage refers to Satan; no one has said otherwise.  However, locusts are not horses.  And these locusts aren't white with a rider.  And most importantly, notice the word ‘like’.    As Tony Warren has already pointed out to you, saying something is ‘like’ something else (as this passage does), is quite different from saying that something ‘is’ (which Rev 6:2 does).   Even I can understand that, and have no doubt that you understand also.


Lastly, as to the reason you seem to generate discord, perhaps you should consider that you may have contributed  a ‘tiny’ bit to the cause, and focus on that tiny bit rather than assume no responsibility whatsoever.

Hag 1:5

Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Tony Warren

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2003, 06:17:40 AM »
>>>
>>So then, the correct exegesis of corinthians tells us that Satan coming transformed or disguised as an angel or messenger of light, is quite different from God saying Satan "is" an angel of light. Correct?<<

This is what I have been saying all along,
<<<


Oh but that were true. What you have been implying is that this verse means that Satan was transformed as riding upon a white horse. Which of course it doesn't. There is no transformed. The white horse is a white horse. It's not transformed into a white horse or disguised as a white horse, or come in the fashion or figure of a white Horse, it IS a white horse this conquering rider comes upon. He rides upon a white horse. John saw a "White Horse." Get That Part Straight First. He didn't come looking like he was riding on a white horse. He "WAS" riding on a white horse. You are becoming a master in "Misapplying" scripture to suit your own purposes and then claiming it "somehow" applies, or to whine about someone misunderstanding why you posted the verse. It is obvious to everyone "why" you posted it. It was to imply that Satan really wasn't riding upon a white horse, he is disguised as riding upon it. That is as bad an explanation of that scripture as I have seen in a long while.

And as I said (and you ignored), Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer--that is, so as to gain an ultimate and lasting victory. Overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail! Satan doesn't qualify.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2003, 07:05:16 AM »
>>>
So to answer your question, no I do not know of a verse that says Satan is riding on a white horse..
<<<

Bingo! Exactly the point! But we do know a verse where God says that Christ is riding upon a white horse. See the difference?

And we do know a verse that says Christ rides on a horse with a Bow to conquer. And we do know a verse which says that all those who have been made righteous in Christ are also riding upon white horses. In normal "exegesis" that would be called an open and shut case. Because the question becomes, "if Christ and His righteous are the only ones seen in scripture riding a white horse, why do some people insist that Satan rides a white horse?" ..good question which forever remains unanswered in a logical fashion. Thus, the words are just words.

Job 6:26
  • "Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?"

..Good question.


Quote
>>>
Proverbs 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
<<<

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, not to have us claim things that don't exist. Satan upon a white horse doesn't exist in scripture. You know that, and you've said as much! It's really no more complicated than that. It's not concealed, it just plainly doesn't exist!

1st Corinthians 3:18
  • "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."

Don't deceive yourself!


Quote
>>>
Also one last refference to horses during the GT period.
<<<

This issue is not about horses (as you well know), it is about White horses. So again, you are "misapplying" scriptures to an issue which does not even relate to it, creating a Straw Man! It's about comparing scripture with scripture. White horse with white horse. It's about the correct way to exegete the passages of scripture by letting the Bible be it's own dictionary and interpreting itself.


Quote
>>>
And as long as Tony Warren allows that type of behaviour there will always be arguement when I post,
<<<

..Ouch!

Did you ever stop to think it might be due to your own arrogant attitude against correction, and your own pride? I've heard of strength of conviction, but to the ridiculous? With you, no amount of passages or verses anyone presents is ever good enough. No defense, no matter how clear or biblically it is elucidated, is ever justified in your eyes. No argument, no matter how leak-proof is ever convincing to you. In your mind, you alone have the truth, and everyone else is just blind and that's all there is to it. You are your own worst enemy. In our day it has become the national past-time to blame everyone else. But look to yourself first.

Proverbs 16:2
  • "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2003, 02:53:58 PM »
>>..Ouch!

Did you ever stop to think it might be due to your own arrogant attitude and pride? I've heard of strength of conviction, but to the ridiculous? With you, no amount of passages anyone presents is ever good enough. No defense no matter how biblical is ever justified. No argument no matter how leakproof is ever convincing. In your mind, you alone have the truth, and everyone else is just blind and that's all there is to it. You are your own worst enemy. It's become the national pasttime to blame everyone else. Look to yourself first.<<


Do you really think it is because of arrogance and pride that I explore all the verses that might relate to a certain subject? That must explain why my posts generate such negative response, no matter what the subject matter, because certainly simply contributing Scriptures that might or might not relate to a certain subject, should not generate such responses from a "Christian discussion" group. No verse I offer ever relates, every single verse is misapplied or read into, in otherwords maybe I should just give up studying the Bible if I am just spinning my wheels and am deceiving myself and "Bible believing" Christians in the process, right? Others can offer opinions without backing it with Scripture and that is perfectly ok, but when I offer my opinion backed by the Scriptures that I believe to relate, thats arrogance and pride.Maybe it would go better for me if I left out the Scriptures, then maybe my opinion might be tolerated. Sorry Tony but I thought that looking at the Scriptures and offering diverse verses to see if or how they relate is how we come to find truth? And if after you rebutt what I have offered, I still disagree with you and come back with other Scriptures that I believe to relate is no reason for you and others to began your righteous indignation, about how arrogant and proud I am.

>>This issue is not about horses (as you know), it is about White horses. So again, you are "misapplying" scriptures to an issue which does not even relate to it. It's about comparing scripture with scripture. White horse with white horse. It's about the correct way to exegete the passages of scripture by letting the Bible be it's own dictionary and interpreting itself.<<

What do you mean this issue is not about horses? It has everthing to do with horses, that is what the subject of the first few verses of Rev.6 is about.

Revelation 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

There are four different color horses talked about here. The topic of this thread is The Four Horsemen. You wanted "white" horses I gave you white horses.

Zechariah 1:8  I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Zechariah 6:2-3  In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

This doesn't relate to Rev.6, it's just coincidence that three of the horses are the same color as those in Rev.6 and only the grisled or spotted horses do not match the pale horse.

In Rev. 9 there are losusts which come out of the bottomless pit and "Appear" like hosres with crowns on their heads, but that doesn't relate either because God doesn't tell us what color they were.

Revelation 9:7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

This verse only fits the criteria of horses, crowns on their head and they are going out to battle, and from Rev.11:7 and Rev.13:7, we know that they will conquer the saints. Only thing missing is that we don't know the color of the horses.

Is the horse Christ is riding in Rev.19 a literal horse? No it is a vision that the Apostle John was given about Christ coming on an apparent horse. As a sidenote which probably doesn't relate, but Esau, the nemesis of Jacob was an archer.

Genesis 21:20  And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

To explore the possibility that it is Satan who comes on what "appears" to be a white horse during the GT period is not a crime. If I am wrong, I will eventually come to that conviction, just like Judy did. Give me a chance, not all of us have the ability to exegete the Bible like you do, some of us make mistakes. Are all the verses I offered misapplied or read into? That's possible, but can we explore them? Is this not a discussion forum on eschotology? Had we all been endowed with your knowledge and ability to exegete the Bible, we wouldn't need to discuss things, we could just sit here and listen to your interpretations and accept them as fact.

My old friend Harold Camping has a saying that is so true, he says that when we are pointing a finger at someone, we have four fingers pointing back at ourselfs.

>>Did you ever stop to think it might be due to your own arrogant attitude and pride?<<

Oh, that we were all  humble and wise.

2 Corinthians 12:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Tony S    

Diane Moody

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2003, 09:22:38 AM »
Quote
No verse I offer ever relates, every single verse is misapplied or read into, in otherwords maybe I should just give up studying the Bible if I am just spinning my wheels and am deceiving myself and "Bible believing" Christians in the process, right?

Oh stop it, just stop it!  You're getting no sympathy about this white horse from any biblical Christian (except maybe Cannuk) because none is justified. Who would agree with such a leap of personal opinion in exegesis. You offer no scripture of Satan on a white horse, and yet you "whine" that we're all picking on you because you supplied scripture supporting Satan on a white horse. You can play the martyr again if you like, but you haven't a leg to stand on. your thinking process is paranoid.

 Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Here we have one of the three places in Revelation where we see the symbolism of  riders on a white Horse. Nothing there about satan. Common sense would tell Christians who are thinking justly to find the other two places in Revelation and compare scripture with scripture. Tony Warren does, Tony S. does not. Now because someone mentions this "fact" they automatically become his cultists?  Just stop it.

 Revelation 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

This is place number two. He that sat on the white horse was faithful and true. Do you understand the significance of that statement by God? Do you understand how this is a confirmation of the rider on the white horse being Christ the conquerer. And to conquer. Is Satan the Conquerer, and to conquer. No. As has already been explained to you, Satan may conquer, but the ultimate conquest is not his.

It's as simple as this, and nothing more. Tony Warren (as is usual with him), supplied explicit and clear scripture showing white horses, and Christ and the righteous riding upon them. Tony S. (as usual with him), supplied no explicit scripture of Satan or his ministers on white horses, but makes the claim that he has proved his case anyway, and everyone here who says he has not is just ganging up on him. That's baloney! The facts don't bear it out. Prove Satan rides on a white horse and I'll be the first to agree with you.

 Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Clearly the white horses symbolize that they ride in righteousness. You are grasping at straws and falsely accusing Tony Warren when you should be looking at your own way of interpreting. Most of us agree this is the right way of interpretation not because we are following him, but because it's quite obvious to logical people that a perfect match is better than one where you claim it implies Satan is on the horse, or that it implies that it's a secret  that God has concealed that we must put together somehow.

Not that this message will change your mind, I'm finally convinced that nothing will, but the evidence is plain.

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2003, 11:36:04 AM »
Hello everyone,

I just read this horsemen thread, hearing both side of agurement. I have questions:

1.) If the white horse represents Christ after the cross, then what does red, black and pale horse represents?

2.) When will the red horse start? At the beginning of the Great Tribulation?  Or at the same time with white horse?

Curiousily,

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

bloodstone

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2003, 12:34:17 PM »
Hello everyone,

I just read this horsemen thread, hearing both side of agurement. I have questions:

1.) If the white horse represents Christ after the cross, then what does red, black and pale horse represents?
Erik Diamond

 Hi Erik,
  This is a little off topic, but since you didn't answer my last post to you, I have to speak when I can get you.  Tony S. speaks well of the freedom on your forum TribulationWatch. However, I have been unable to be granted access for two weeks. Any reason?


Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2003, 06:56:26 PM »
>>It's as simple as this, and nothing more. Tony Warren (as is usual with him), supplied explicit and clear scripture showing white horses, and Christ and the righteous riding upon them. Tony S. (as usual with him), supplied no explicit scripture of Satan or his ministers on white horses, but makes the claim that he has proved his case anyway, and everyone here who says he has not is just ganging up on him. That's baloney! The facts don't bear it out. Prove satan rides on a white horse and I'll be the first to agree with you.<<

Mrs. MOODY,

This is not a contest between Mr, Warren and myself to see who has more knowledge or to see who exegetes the Bible better than the other, like you all have made it out to be. This is a discussion board on eschotology, do you know what that means? It means that someone brings an idea to the table and of course the rules that are plainly stated about this forum indicate that along with those opinions, Scripture must be provided to see if the idea has any Biblical merit. Others are free to agree or disagree so long as they follow the rules and provide Scripture for their opinions. As far as I know this forum was not set up to pit one person agains't another to see how many are in one camp and how many are in the other, with people ruining the thread by registering their vote in the form of opinion and innuendo. I don't know but maybe I'm wrong, because this seems to be the pattern every time I post. First Tony Warren comes out with his rebuttal, always using Scripture I might add, then Judy Kanova comes next with her post agreeing with Tony W., always using Scripture also, then those regulars that just like to register their votes for Tony Warren's rebuttals pop in with their opinions and comments on how Tony W. is right and I'm wrong. If you don't be;ieve this, just go back and look at all the previous threads that I have posted in, you will see this pattern in almost every one of those threads that were left on the board. In fact what have you accomplished by your post, but to repeat what Tony Warren has already said, which only proves the point I am making. So please spare me the lecture about me wanting sympathy, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.  I don't need the approval of man to stroke my ego, I look only to the approval that really counts, that is the approval of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:4  But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

 Does God know that I don't exegete the Bible perfectly? Yes He knows. Does that mean He doesn't approve of me trying to understand the Scriptures? I don't know but everything that I read in the Bible encourages believers to study the Word, even if we don't understand it perfectly.

Proverbs 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Acts 17:10-11  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is an honourable trait in everyone except me right? I know why, it is because I am "arrogant and proud and I misapply and read into Scripture and I don't exegete the Scriptures" as well as others, well let me tell you something Mrs. Moody, I do the best I can with the brain that the Lord has given me to understand what I read in the Bible and hopefully with the help of the Holy Spirit God might get a few truths through this dense skull of mine and He will use His Word and Spirit to do it with and not another man.

>> Not that this message will change your mind, I'm finally convinced that nothing will, but the evidence is plain.<<

1 John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Tony S

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2003, 09:16:53 PM »
>>Let’s consider the Zechariah passage in context...

First of all, these horses were sent forth by God….  not by Satan:

Zech 1:10
And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.<<


Reconsider, who is it that sends Satan agains't the church during the GT period? Is it Satan or God?

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Jeremiah 27:6  And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

So what have you proved by stating that it is God who sends these horses out?

>>Secondly, there is no ‘rider’ upon a white horse here,  therefore no 1:1 correspondence can be made with respect to Rev 6:2; this passage is simply not comparable.<<

That's your personal opinion and I accept it as such, my opinion is that it does relate whether there is a rider on the white horse or not, it doesn't state, but there is a rider on the red horse, does that one relate to Rev. 6?

>>Thirdly, the period in view does not appear to be  that of GT:<<

"Does not appear" is the operative phrase here, I think almost eveyone who has studied the 70 year captivity of Isreal by the Babylonians, agree that it was a picture of the GT period, so whaen it reffers here to the 70 year captivity of Isreal, it is a hint that the GT period might be in view.

Zechariah 1:12  Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

Also in the book of Daniel when Daniel had determined to understand about the 70 year captivity, he gets the vision of the GT period after he is done with his prayer, is that coincidence?

Daniel 9:2-3  In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

Daniel 9:20-21  And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel 9:22-23  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Then comes the vision.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks or sevens, do they relate to the 70 years of captivity? In my opinion they do.

Daniel 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

These 70 sevens relate very much to the GT period, don't you think?

So again what have you proven by saying that Zech.1 does not "appear" to be that of the GT period?

>>There are tons of other verses with the phrase ‘to and fro’,  that have nothing to do with Satan, but merely describe the action of going ‘to and fro’.  Although you neglected to mention this fact,  you did at least acknowledge that even the phrase  ‘get thee hence’ has no consistent connection to Satan.  Hopefully you can see that this does not prove your point.   <<

There are not tons of verses that use the phrase "to and fro" that have nothing to do with Satan, but there are a few. But the verses that do relate to Satan and the GT are plenty. Here is an example:

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

I am almost sure that you have stated that in the book of Job, there are pictures of the GT period, in one of your previous posts on this book, didn't you?

Genesis 8:7  And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

Also the flood of Noah's day has connections to and can be a picture of the GT period.

Revelation 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Matthew 24:37-39  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So here again there is a connection with the GT period as the raven goes "to and fro".

Isaiah 24:20  The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Here again it is in the context of the end of the world and the GT period.

Isaiah 24:18-19  And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah 33:4  And your spoil shall be gathered like the gathering of the caterpiller: as the running to and fro of locusts shall he run upon them.

The locusts are a picture of Satan and his demons and here they are said to go "to and fro".

Revelation 9:2-3  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Jeremiah 5:1  Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.

Although I cannot show a direct connection with this verse and the GT period, the aspect of  truth and judgment missing in Jerusalem does relate to the condition of the church during the GT.

Jeremiah 49:3  Howl, O Heshbon, for Ai is spoiled: cry, ye daughters of Rabbah, gird you with sackcloth; lament, and run to and fro by the hedges; for their king shall go into captivity, and his priests and his princes together.

Here again is the mention of the captivity in relation to running "to and fro".

Ezekiel 27:19-20  Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market.  Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots.

I believe this relates to the merchants of Rev.18.

Revelation 18:11-12  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Joel 2:4  The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Joel 2:9  They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Here in Joel I believe that it is talking directly to the GT period, although you must read the whole book to get that sense.

Amos 8:12  And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Another very definite refference to the GT period.

Ephesians 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here the phrase is used in the context of deception and although not a direct link to the GT period, it certainly applies to the deception that will be rampant during the GT.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

This verse is unmistakenly a refference to the GT period.

So you see Judy there are many direct and indirect refferences relating this phrase to Satan or to the GT period and just so that you don't accuse me of not mentioning the verses that don't apply, here are all the rest of the verses that use the phrase in another manner.

2 Kings 4:35  Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

2 Chronicles 16:9  For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Job 7:4  When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day.
( This one might relate to GT?)

Job 13:25  Wilt thou break a leaf driven to and fro? and wilt thou pursue the dry stubble?

Psalms 107:27  They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits' end.

Proverbs 21:6  The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
( This one also might relate).

Zechariah 4:10  For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

This is it, these are all the refferences that I found with the phrase "to and fro", some relate to Satan, some relate to God Himself and some have a very definite connection to the GT period.

The phrase "get thee hence" is used alot less then the other phrase.

1 Kings 17:3  Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

Isaiah 30:22  Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

Zechariah 6:7  And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

Matthew 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Three of the four have a definite negetive conotation.

There they are, you be the judge to see if I am misapplying these phrases.

>>Lastly, as to the reason you seem to generate discord, perhaps you should consider that you may have contributed  a ‘tiny’ bit to the cause, and focus on that tiny bit rather than assume no responsibility whatsoever.<<

I have admited contributing to the discord in the past and admit it again, but I think that I am the only one that has done so.

Here is a quote from a previous post of mine.
"Please don't think you ran me off, it is totally voluntary, I now see what a divisive element I have been to the group, although that was not my intention and I have caused you all enough hardship."

Do you really believe in your heart of hearts that non of you who have opposed me, not done any wrong at all nor contributed to the discord by any means?

John 8:7a  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone

Tony S    

Deuce Johnson

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2003, 10:16:07 PM »
Tony S.
  First of all, shut up about the running of this forum. You don't run this forum, so stop trying to. If you don't like the way Tony runs it, hit the road jack! That's your option! Simple as that.

 Now to your posts. You're making a ton of assumptions, you're changing the subject, you're giving winded speeches on everything from the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, to forum etiquette, to the words to and fro, to locusts, to the great tribulation period, and Satan being loosed. None of which has anything to do with how we are to correctly interpret who is the rider on the white horse.

 And to make an idiotic declaration to Judy that it's her opinion that it's important that the white horse of revelation has a rider, is dumb. If these riders were not important, God wouldn't specify that they had riders. The more you talk, the more foolish you sound.

What is obvious to me is that you produce this dog and pony show because you cannot produce one legitimate passage of Satan on a white horse. And I see many have seen through you. You're not fooling anyone with accusations, or with throwing scriptures around talking about everything except the point. Your arguments are juvenile.

And to castigate Diane for submitting the only 3 scripture passages which use the phrase white horse claiming she's just repeating Tony is absurd. And it just shows how desperate you are for attention. Her explanation of those passages were far more plausible than yours of claiming Corinthians and the color white Satan comes in. For your information, those are the only scriptures that speak of the white horse, therefore they are the ones which should be discussed and examined carefully. Not scriptures about the great tribulation or the 70 weeks of Daniel. MISAPPLIED.

I must admit. You had me fooled for a while here. But your true colors have come out with a vengeance. You have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Not about Tony? You've made it about Tony in almost every post, starting with your cultist shots you took. What kind of fool do you take us for?


judykanova

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2003, 11:33:03 AM »

Bloodstone,

Summer is a time of vacations, and not everyone checks the forum daily.   You might try Erik's email.

I haven't seen his site, but I doubt  it's a free-for-all.  I would think there has to be some guidelines, if for no other reason than to avoid chaos.

Judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2003, 05:01:53 PM »
Bloodstone,

I am sorry, but I was really busy with moving and trying to settle down at my new home. Right now I am having a hard time finding job in this small town compare to my previous home in Denver.  I did not write very many at TribulationWatch Forum too. I did not check member pending often.

So, BloodStone, please try to register if you want to join Tribulationwatch and of course, please read the guideline.  

When I am settled down and have more time, I will finish my website and develop a new forum. Please bear with me.  I do check on this forum time to time and was very interseted in Latter Rain debate and white horse.  I made little comment with a question about red horse, black and pale above.  ANyone have any idea what they represented and when they "released"?

I am doing okay, just don't really have much freedom as I used to.  

Thanks for your understanding and to everyone here.... keep up studying in God's Word and try not to get ... too personal!  ::)

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2003, 05:28:12 PM »
>>Tony S.
  First of all, shut up about the running of this forum. You don't run this forum, so stop trying to. If you don't like the way Tony runs it, hit the road jack! That's your option! Simple as that. <<


Hello Duece,

That is very neighborly of you and it seems your true colors are also showing.

Matthew 22:37-39   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

>>Now to your oposts. You're making a ton of assumptions, you're changing the subject, you're giving winded speeches on everything from the 70 weeks of daniel 9, to forum ettiquite, to the words to and fro, to locusts, to the great tribulation period, and Satan being loosed. None of which has anything to do with how we are to correctly interpret who is the rider on the white horse.<<

Are you suggesting we throw out the rest of the Bible if it doesn't mention a rider on a white horse?

2 Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

>>And to castigate Diane for submitting the only 3 scripture passages which use the phrase white horse
For your information, those are the only scriptures that speak of the white horse, therefore they are the ones which should be discussed and examined carefully.<<

Correction there are 6.

Zechariah 1:8  I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Zechariah 6:3  And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Zechariah 6:6  The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

Revelation 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

>>And to make an idiotic declaration to Judy that it's her opinion that it's important that the white horse of revelation has a rider, is dumb. If these riders were not important, God wouldn't specify that they had riders. The more you talk, the more foolish you sound.<<

Your post is a perfect example of the statement I made about people turning this into a contest and your one of those that offer opinion and add nothing by way of Scripture to the discussion. Is it safe to say  the your vote goes to Tony Warren and Judy Kanova? ( My attempt at a little humor.)    :(

>> I must admit. You had me fooled for a while here. But your true colors have come out with a vengeance. You have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Not about Tony? You've made it about Tony in almost every post, starting with your cultist shots you took. What kind of fool do you take us for?<<


If I have lost credibility in your eyes, that is of no concern to me, but don't disreguard the Sciptures that are offered just because you have a personal problem with me. I have written many posts and offered a multitude of Scriptures for my beliefs, which Scriptures have I offered that have offended you?

Proverbs 10:14  Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

Tony S



Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2003, 06:01:38 PM »
The Scriptures speak louder than any man can so I will let the Bible do the talking and give you all a break.

Revelation 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 27:6  And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Daniel 2:37  Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Daniel 2:38  And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 8:12  And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Revelation 9:3  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Revelation 9:5  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Revelation 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Tony S

judykanova

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2003, 08:07:02 PM »
Tony S.,

This will be my last post to you, not only on this subject, but on any subject.

Just like 'to and fro' merely describes an action, and has no exclusive association with good or evil , with Satan or Christ, with believers or non-believers, this new phrase  you're presenting --
'was given'  simply  describes an action.  


Dan 7:21-22

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Acts 8:17-18

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,


Rev 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given [/b] unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[/i]

etc...  

I'm sure you get the point (as I do acknowledge your intelligence, which makes this all the worse and leaves you with little excuse for your manipulation of Scriptures).  I also recognize that you'll never concede that the phrase 'was given' proves nothing, and continue to avoid those things that are relevent to the topic at hand.  

Duece is right, you have behaved very foolishly throughout, and don't even give us credit for common sense.  It doesn't take much to see how much you've misused Scripture.    It appears that you would say just about anything, just to remain the center of attention.   Actions always speak louder than words.  Don't blame anyone but yourself.  If the majority of people agree that  2+2 = 4, whereas one person says 2+2=7, it's not a matter of siding with anyone, it's a matter of weighing the information and reaching a conclusion.  That's what this is really all about.

2 Tim 2:15-16

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Job 42:7

And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


Yes, I've had posts about Job, but never was the verse regarding Satan walking 'to and fro' under discussion.  Nor did those posts have anything to do with the topic at hand -- who is the rider on the white horse in Rev 6:2.  You have misused the participants here as much as you've misused the Scriptures...  Not speaking 'rightly'.

Judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

 


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