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Author Topic: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse  (Read 30460 times)

Pearson

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The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« on: June 10, 2003, 07:21:26 AM »
There has been mention of the white horsemen of revelation chapter 6 referring to Satan. This is a teaching of the dispensational theologians which cannot be supported. Basically this doctrine says that the other horses look evil, so the white horse must be evil. There is no more proof than that.

It seems quite evident to me that the horse in Revelation 19 and revelation 6 are the same. And that is further justified by the same white horse in Zechariah. And note that just as Tony said, the Lord sends them.

 Zechariah 6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

 Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Do not be misled into thinking the horsemen who represents Christ, represents Satan.

Reformer

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2003, 09:07:56 AM »
Quote
Even though Tony Warren says that "Satan could never be symbolized "as" a White horse, he could at best come looking like a righteous horse.", we have the verses in the book of Zechariah that speak of a white horse in the context of evil.

Let's put it this way, Tony shows by scripture his interpretations. So you can prove him wrong only by showing Satan seen riding a white horse. No? Else I agree with his position that Satan is never seen riding a white horse. And Christ is. Can't you see that?

He has backed up his interpretation by showing Christ on a white horse, and in the very same book of revelation. All you have is your word but no precedence of Satan on a white horse. That is the difference between his way of interpreting, and your way. He gives us examples in scripture of Christ on a white horse, you give no example of Satan on a white horse but say you believe it is Satan anyway. See the difference? Sloppy exegesis verses exegesis by comparing biblical examples.


Reformer

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2003, 09:13:27 AM »
There has been mention of the white horsemen of revelation chapter 6 referring to Satan. This is a teaching of the dispensational theologians which cannot be supported. Basically this doctrine says that the other horses look evil, so the white horse must be evil. There is no more proof than that.

I agree. Where is the biblical proof Satan rides on a white horse? Anywhere?

 Revelation 19:11
 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

That tells me that the man on the white horse in Revelation is Christ. To say otherwise is confusion of the book of revelation.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2003, 11:03:24 AM »
>>>
He has backed up his interpretation by showing Christ on a white horse, and in the very same book of revelation. All you have is your word but no precedence of Satan on a white horse.
<<<

You are right. Biblical precedence or at least biblical warrant is necessary. We can't just suurmise that because there are a lot of evil horses there, the white one is evil too. The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture. Comparing one image of rider with another image of rider. Not comparing the image of a rider with the image of a beast. We have to have consistency throughout. Let's start by comparing the two riders. Does this rider in Revelation chapter six compare favorably to the "figures" of Satan that God inspires in scripture? The answer is No. Do they compare with the "figure" God inspires as representing Christ? Thew answer is Yes. Let's compare.

Revelation 6:2
  • "And I saw, and behold a White Horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Revelation 19:11-12
  • "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a White Horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
  • His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

They compare favorably. In fact, almost identically right down to His coming for warfare, and the crown symbolizing He rules. The question is, why would anyone (based upon what is written in Revelation 6:2) think that this rider on the white horse is someone different from the rider on the white horse in Revelation nineteen? There certainly is nothing (at all) in Revelation 6:2 that would lead us to believe He is a different rider. So where would we get the idea? ..I submit that it comes from man's own reasoning and teachings, rather than what is actually written there.

First consideration. Satan's strength is NEVER symbolized by the color white. And the horses are the symbol of the rider's strength. When you mount an army (in those days) your strength was measured by your number of horsemen. Horsemen gave you the advantage of strength in war. And colors (like numbers) carry great spiritual significance. White 'unquestionably' symbolizes purity or righteousness. i.e., the great white throne, the white stone, the clean white robes given the elect, the white cloud that the son of man sat on, the hair white like wool, etc., etc. And here, the "White" horse is in that very same vein of symbols found in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Horse = Strength of battle
White = Righteousness
Horseman on white horse = He who comes in strength of Righteous for warfare.

= Christ!

Christ judges and makes war in righteousness. This color white is not "incidental" in revelation, it is in harmony with the symbolism in revelation. This is no small matter to be cast aside as insignificant (as some do). Because interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture, and that is "extremely" important. Why would God use white to symbolize the rider coming in righteousness in one book of Revelation, and then assign that color to Satan's horse? He's not coming in strength of righteousness. It makes no sense. Some say because he is a false prophet, but God doesn't need to assign the color white to a horse to show false prophecy. A White horse doesn't symbolize false prophecy, it symbolizes riding in truth, purity, cleanness, and righteousness. We have our two identifiers. The horseman symbolizing He comes in strength (Job 39:19; Isaiah 31:1; Psalm 33:17; Psalm 147:10) of warfare, and color of the horse being white to symbolize He comes in righteous warfare and judgment. Just as Revelation 19 also so clearly illustrates. And as all of Revelation postulates:

Revelation 16:7
  • "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

Christ comes in righteous judgments and the white horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes righteousness, just as Revelation nineteen does. They are synonymous with each other, the very same symbolism. It is inconsistent for us to say that the white Horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes Satan, and then claim the white horse in Revelation chapter nineteen does not. That it switches and now symbolizes Christ. Where is the logic for such an abrupt change? They are both white horses! If there is one thing I have learned in my study of the scriptures, it is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error," and is almost always the vehicle of every wrong interpretation. ie., you can't have the Candlesticks in Revelation 2 symbolize the Church, and then turn around in Revelation chapter 11 and claim it now represents two physical men who will come and witness. This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. Consistency is paramount, and God declares that it is in "Righteousness" that this rider on the white horse goes forth to judge and make war. Again, total agreement and harmony with the horse (symbolizing strength of battle) being white.

In Revelation chapter 19 we see this rider has many crowns (illustrating He is King of Kings and rules over many nations). And in Revelation 6 When the seal is loosed we see this rider is given a kingdom (symbolized by the crown). Again, total agreement with Christ going forth in righteousness. Christ was crowned king of kings and Lord of lords by his meritorious work and suffering on the cross. He established His kingdom by that suffering and death. ..to this end was He born.

Hebrews 2:9
  • "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Matthew 27:29
  • "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

So mock as they would, the truth is, Jesus was crowned King of the Jews by this meritorious work on the cross. He was given a crown, He did "establish" this kingdom by this work. And so again, we have complete and total harmony with the figure being representative of Christ given a crown, and not Satan. Satan hardly rides forth on the vehicle of righteousness (white horse) that he goes forth "both" conquering (overcoming) and to conquer (overcome). This can only be Christ who rides thusly. He is this warrior crowned King and we are his army on white horses who are in battle in this spiritual warfare with Him.

Revelation 17:14
  • "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
Revelation 12:11
  • "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The symbolism of this warfare which Christ goes forth conquering and to conquer permeates all throughout scripture.

Notice also that He has a bow in Revelation chapter six. Many have postulated that this proves that this is not Christ, because Christ doesn't have a bow in revelation chapter nineteen. Someone also told me, "..See Christ has no sword in Revelation chapter 6, so that proves it's not Christ." But this is all a self-serving exegesis. Such interpretations are easily debunked. For example, Christ has hair which is white like wool in Revelation chapter one, but it isn't mentioned in Revelation nineteen. Does that mean that Christ in Revelation chapter one is not Christ in revelation nineteen? Of course not. That would be a nonsensical way of interpreting. True interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture in the light of the "Whole" Bible. Doing that is the only way to come to real truth. So let's do are the more noble Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things are true. Where else do we see this horseman riding with this bow? Is it an image of Satan or Christ?

Psalms 7:11-13
  • "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
  • If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his Bow, and made it ready.
  • He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors."

Here is the Lord pictured as with His bow and His arrows and coming in judgment (Revelation 6), and His whet sword (Revelation 19). These symbolisms in Revelation are not an untraditional teaching, it is a teaching as old as the scriptures themselves. Interpretations belong to God. When we see Christ riding in Revelation chapter six in righteousness with a bow, it "Should" send us right to the Psalms where we unambiguously see the very same spiritual pictures. ..and He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Psalms 45:3-7
  • " Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
  • And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
  • Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
  • Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
  • Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Who is this horseman with a bow, who rides a horse in righteousness? Is it Satan? No, it is Christ that has been anointed King, been given a crown, is riding prosperously with this bow in "Righteousness" to judge and make war. How much clearer can it get. Moreover, God confirms the fulfillment of this prophecy of Christ in Hebrews as He quotes this of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8
  • "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Taken directly from that Psalm. Clearly, the idea that the rider in Revelation 6:2 cannot be Christ because He has a bow is nonsensical, and because He has no sword is also shown to be untenable. Here in Psalms 45 we see this rider Christ has both sword and bow and goes forth riding prosperiously conquering and to conquer. And He has been given a crown.

Luke 1:32-33
  • "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
  • And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Indeed He is given a crown, and indeed He does go forth conquering and to conquer. In Revelation chapter six the crown given the rider in righteousness is no contradiction to Revelation nineteen. Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. In other words, overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail! Satan doesn't qualify. satan may overcome temporarily, but not to overcome ultimately.

The white horse is the strength of Christ's warfare, whereupon he rides when he goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translate them into his kingdom. He comes in the strength of His majesty, truth, meekness, and righteousness, which are made known in the preaching of his gospel. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. A spiritual warfare where we are either an army with Christ, or an army against him.

Luke 11:21-23p
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
  • He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Christ, he shall break down those gates, free the prisoners, and build His Church. As this rider on the white horse, He goes forth conquering and to conquer, and thus, over the last 2000 years the Church has been built.

There is no mention anywhere of Satan going forth righteously riding on a white horse, conquering and to conquer.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
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Tony Warren

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2003, 12:14:43 PM »
Quote
>>>
Judy
I agree with your initial conclusion that this rider represents Satan as he comes as an angel of light, here are my reasons.
<<<

Correct me if I'm wrong, who introduced into Revelation 6:2, Satan as an angel (messenger) of light? Was it God or you? Because I read in that verse of a horse, which is White, and his rider, which has a bow. Nothing more. So, the question is, where does this image of Satan being the rider come from? Certainly not from the actual text of that verse. Or of any verse that speaks of a white horse.

Of course I will apologize if you can search the scriptures and produce anywhere where God shows Satan on a white horse with a bow going forth as conquerer. Because I can certainly show in scripture Christ on a white horse with bow going forth as conquerer and to conquer.

That Satan comes as a messenger of light, no one denies. That's unadulterated scripture. But he does not come riding upon a White horse, which symbolizes righteousness, with this bow, conquering and to conquer. That's not insignificant. That would be confusion, since only Christ and his army (not Satan and his) ride upon white horses in scripture. The reason for this is that it illustrates that they ride in strength of righteousness. NOTE also we don't see this rider or his army looking like they come in strength of righteousness "mind you," but we actually see the image of them coming in the strength of the righteousness of God. ...actually riding white horses. Just like Revelation chapter 6.

Revelation 19:14
  • "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These armies don't come as if they're riding upon white horses, or come looking like they have white horses, or come masquerading as White horses, they actually come upon white horses--Just as Christ!

What shall we say then, that these white horses and this white linen symbolize they only looked like they were righteous, or it was something other than righteousness only in revelation 6:2 simply because that fits our eschatology? No, the symbolism is consistent and obvious. Or it should be. It doesn't jump from one meaning to another as the chapters of Revelation roll by, God is consistent in His symbolism. That is precisely why we can come to the truth of interpretations. Because it's not a horse symbolizing strength in one chapter and a boat in another. That's what makes scripture consistent and able to be rightly understood. That's what makes a star a Messenger in verse 1 of Revelation and also a Messenger in verse 12. That's what makes a Candlestick the church in verse 2 and the also the church in verse 11, or even in chapter 11. That's what makes the red Dragon Satan in revelation 12, and the Dragon in Revelation 20 the very same Satan. Precisely because we don't say it's Satan in one chapter and Christ in another. It's just sound exegesis.


Quote
>>>
Even though Tony Warren says that "Satan could never be symbolized "as" a White horse, he could at best come looking like a righteous horse.", we have the verses in the book of Zechariah that speak of a white horse in the context of evil.
<<<

Note how you say "in the context of evil." That's no great stretch, the white horse in revelation 6 is in the context of evil. The Horse in Revelation 19 is in the context of evil because He's obviously coming in judgement against it. This is certainly not evidence that the rider on the white horse is Satan.


Quote
>>>
Also in Zechariah 6 it speaks of more white horses which symbolize evil.
<<<

Wrong! Nowhere in Zechariah does God ever speak of white horses symbolizing evil. You should be very careful not to put words into God's mouth. You have "read that into the scriptures" because as anyone with eyes can see, that is not what the scriptures there actually say, nor do they demonstrate that. So once again, you are reading serious matters into scripture without proper warrant. Which is the key to your erroneous interpretations. You take far too many liberties with the Word of God. Do you have any idea what these two mountains of brass represent from whence these horses come?


Quote
>>>
The phrase "get thee hence" is intimately identified with Satan.
<<<

Have you indeed done your homework as the Bereans and searched that out to see if it were really true, or is this another off-the-cuff remark? e.g.:

1st Kings 17:3
  • "Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan."

Is this intimately identified with Satan, or the care and Salvation for this man of God? Sound exegesis requires careful study of the whole Bible, not just taking bits and pieces to justify our own views.


Quote
>>>
So in both Zechariah 1 and 6 there are white horses which are associated with phrases that are identified with Satan,
<<<

I'd say it is more associated with the Judgment of God. Horses that God sends. Sends as judgment, and Christ as a conquerer, and going forth to conquer. Very important distinction.


Quote
>>>
P.S. Also the rider of the white horse is said to be given a crown, whereas Christ is spoken of as having a crown because He is King of kings.
<<<

Christ indeed was given a crown, when He ascended to the throne to rule. Likewise He does now have many crowns. Many crowns because He has triumphed over the nations and is king of kings and lord of Lords. Where is the mystery? Indeed what did the four living creatures do and say of Christ? That He had redeemed them by His blood, that he was worthy, and they did give their crowns to Him. Is that not correct?

Revelation 4:10-11
  • "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
  • Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created[/i]."

Here are your many crowns. ie, we surrender all! It doesn't mean Christ was not given a crown, rather it symbolizes Christ as King of kings and lord of lords, that all nations and tongues and creeds surrender all authority and worship him. This has nothing whatsoever to do with negating the rider in Revelation 6:2 from being Christ.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Philly Dawg

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2003, 02:21:11 PM »

I believe that this rider is the Lord Jesus Christ. Here are some of my reasons. In Revelation 19:11ff we read about this white horse also, and there the rider is very clearly identified as the Lord Jesus Christ. He is wearing many crowns, even as the rider in chapter 6 is wearing a crown. He rides forth to conquer, even as the rider in chapter 6 is bent on conquest. It's just to much coincidence.

Also the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6 has a bow, and that makes us think back to the king spoken of in Psalm 45: he is riding a horse and has a bow and arrows. Again, just too much coincidence.

Also, in the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary they also apparently see the connection to psalms 45, and also point out that this is Christ. I know that doesn't make it correct, but all signs point to this being Christ.
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Philly Dawg

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2003, 02:39:12 PM »
I just thought of something. Here is a commentary on Revelation chapter 6 from a man who I respect immensely (and I know Tony does too) and he usually knows what he is talking about in interpreting scripture. Mr. Bruno Kolberg

http://web.archive.org/web/20010422225822/http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bkolberg/chapter16.html#H2

Judy, you were looking for a commentary on revelation, if you have time, read his whole commentary of Revelation. Very good job he did.

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Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2003, 05:43:46 PM »
>>Why would God use white to symbolize righteousness in revelation, and then assign that color to Satan's horse? He's not coming in strength of righteousness. <<

We have to compare Scripture with Scripture.

2 Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Let me ask, what color is light? What kind of ministers are these ministers transformed into?

It's sad when people can't see the forest for the trees, just because of personal conflicts.

Tony S

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2003, 06:03:35 PM »
>>Let's put it this way, Tony shows by scripture his interpretations. So you can prove him wrong only by showing Satan seen riding a white horse. No? Else I agree with his position that Satan is never seen riding a white horse. And Christ is. Can't you see that?

He has backed up his interpretation by showing Christ on a white horse, and in the very same book of revelation. All you have is your word but no precedence of Satan on a white horse. That is the difference between his way of interpreting, and your way. He gives us examples in scripture of Christ on a white horse, you give no example of Satan on a white horse but say you believe it is Satan anyway. See the difference? Sloppy exegesis verses exegesis by comparing biblical examples.<<


Refomer,

Tony Warren will go to be with the Lord someday and then where will you be? Where are your studies on Scripture? I can't believe how you can be allowed to break the rules of the forum time after time without using Scripture in your message, only giving your personal opinion.

The fact is that Satan's rule during the GT period is based on and identified by deception, that is what the GT is all about!

Revelation 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The bow has everthing to do with deception.

Psalms 78:57  But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

Psalms 37:14  The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Moreover, the rider of the white horse was given the crown on his head, whereas the rider of the white horse in Rev.19 already had all His crowns, He needed no one to give it to Him.

Revelation 19:12   His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Satan is certainly portrayed as a king during the GT period and who is it that gave him that power? The answer is God gave it to him.

Daniel 8:23-24  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.  And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Please examine these  Scriptures and try to refrain from the temptation to argue by personal opinion.

Tony S



Tony Warren

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2003, 06:48:15 PM »
Quote
>>>
2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Let me ask, what color is light? What kind of ministers are these ministers transformed into?
<<<

My dear Watson, this is elementary. With logic like that, we could in like manner deduce, "..what color is blood? ..blood is red. ..the Dragon is red. ..the blood of Christ is red. Therefore Christ must be the Dragon?"

What color is light? That's weak. The Bible doesn't say Satan's horse is white or that Satan is an angel of light and so sorry, that's not Biblical exegesis, that's charades. It's a pretense at sound exegesis. Satan is not a messenger of light, nor is he called one. We both know that passage illustrates he comes masquerading as a messenger of light. Not that he actually is one. So Satan is "not" depicted with a image of bringing light or riding a white horse.  Look more carefully.

2nd Peter 2:4
  • "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

You don't really think that Satan actually is a messenger of light do you? No, of course not. The Greek word translated transformed in the verse your using is [metaschematizo], meaning "disguised as" or comes "in the fashion of." Check that out yourself in the Greek if you like. Satan is no more a Messenger of light than King Herod was. He's the angel of darkness and you know that. But he comes in the fashion of, or disguised as a Messenger of light. Because he's a false/pseudo messenger of Christ. That's what the word (metaschematizo) means. He's a fake Christ.

Likewise, you don't really think the ministers of Satan are ministers of righteousness do you? No, they are transformed or disguised as ministers of righteousness. We all know that. There is no light from Satan, nor righteousness from his ministers. They don't come riding upon white horses because that would be confusion. You are again "misapplying" scripture in a attempt to prove something that you cannot prove.

Neither was Paul saying that they are light, but they "appear" to mankind to me messengers of light, and they "appear" to mankind as ministers of righteousness.

On the other hand, the white horse is a white horse. The rider is on a white horse. It's not transformed or disguised as a white horse, or come in the fashion or figure of a white Horse, it "IS" a white horse He is riding upon. John saw a "White Horse." Try as you might, you cannot change that fact. Better to "receive" it as the Biblical fact that it is.

So then, the correct exegesis of Corinthians tells us that Satan coming disguised as an angel or messenger of light, is quite different from God saying Satan "is" an angel of light. ...Correct?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

matt205

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2003, 07:34:28 PM »
>>Let's put it this way, Tony shows by scripture his interpretations. So you can prove him wrong only by showing Satan seen riding a white horse. No? Else I agree with his position that Satan is never seen riding a white horse. And Christ is. Can't you see that?

He has backed up his interpretation by showing Christ on a white horse, and in the very same book of revelation. All you have is your word but no precedence of Satan on a white horse. That is the difference between his way of interpreting, and your way. He gives us examples in scripture of Christ on a white horse, you give no example of Satan on a white horse but say you believe it is Satan anyway. See the difference? Sloppy exegesis verses exegesis by comparing biblical examples.<<


Refomer,

Tony Warren will go to be with the Lord someday and then where will you be? Where are your studies on Scripture? I can't believe how you can be allowed to break the rules of the forum time after time without using Scripture in your message, only giving your personal opinion.

Ever wonder why this forum doesn't seem to have any arguments until you decide to post? Why do you think that is?  The Reformer actually did post scripture on the white horse of revelation 19, and said quite clearly that Tony did as well. While we all agree, you posted no scripture where satan is seen on a white horse. So, without getting into an argument, please produce such scripture.. I think the rules allows such requests.

Or is it that no such scripture exists?



bloodstone

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2003, 07:53:00 PM »
Matt. Without getting off topic, most people come here to contribute what they can, and to learn. But there are a few stand outs who come just to prove how smart they are, and to prove themselves right all the time.

 Psalms 84:10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

I'd rather be a doorman in the house of God than the judge of everything and everyone. Which is why I do a lot of listening and little teaching.



judykanova

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2003, 12:21:21 AM »
Pearson, thanks for starting this thread so as not to detract further from the ‘Seven Horns’ thread.

Philly Dawg, many thanks for posting that link.  While I don't agree with everything in Bruno Kolberg's study, I found it very helpful.  He makes a very valid observation that helped resolve my only concern with the white horseman in Rev 6 -- namely, the 'time'  it is in reference to.  I believe I wrongly assumed that all the seals dealt solely with the period of GT; this is probably a common mistake people make in not recognizing that the book of Revelations goes back and forth in time, and in many respects chronicles God’s plan from the foundation of the world.

There are a number of references in Revelations that deal  with key portions as well as the entire N.T. period.  While most of the seals in Revelations 6 (e.g. 2nd seal onward) do pertain specifically to the G.T. period, I find Mr. Kolberg's biblical argument that the first seal actually pertains to the NT period (which proceeds and sets the stage for the GT) convincing.  Moreover,  this part of his conclusion is in keepking with Tony Warren's consistently sound exegesis and faithful rendering of God’s Word.  Here is a relevent excerpt from that study:

Excerpt from the Kolberg study:
Quote
In the first seal, we see a rider on a white horse going forth from one victory to another. As befits the opening seal, this rider is Christ (cf. Rev 19:11). His riding in victory portrays the success of the Gospel throughout the era of New Testament outreach. The rider holds a bow and was given a crown. The crown shows that Christ received honour, glory and power when He ascended to heaven (1 Tim 3:16; Rev 5:12). The bow, a weapon used to fire arrows, shows that Christ is warring to wrest souls from Satan's grasp (cf. Ps 45:3-5). This victorious march will continue until Satan is loosed near the end of time, to deceive the nations as in Old Testament days.

The Second Seal –- Satan is Loosed...
The second seal opens to reveal a rider on a red horse. He was empowered, with a great sword, to take peace from the earth. ... both literally and spiritually .... We can therefore expect violence and evil to escalate, and the Gospel to diminish, during this time
.

We see other examples in Revelations that pertain to Christ's birth, first coming,  and His momentous victory over death and Satan at the cross.  If this isn't a most significant victory which sets the stage for everything else in God's  final plans for salvation as well as judgment, I don't know what is!  


Rev 12:4-13

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child….
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Rev 17:12-14

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[/i]

So, in conclusion, I made an unfounded assumption by lumping all the events depicted by the seals, into the same timeframe of GT, without seeing the broader picture.  The broader picture,  which takes into account and reconciles the Whole Word of God, ( as aptly presented by Tony Warren, Perason, Philly Dawg and others), has convinced me that the white horse rider in Rev 6 is Christ.  

Thank you all who patiently helped me resolve this in my own mind.  Thank God for His Grace.

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2003, 12:38:29 AM »
>>You don't really think that Satan is a messenger of light do you? No, of courese not. "Transformed (metaschematizo) into"means disguised as or comes "in the fashion of." Check that out yourself in the Greek if you like, but don't play these games. Satan is no more a Messenger of light than King Herod was. He's the angel of darkness and "YOU KNOW THAT." But he comes in the fashion of, or disguised as an angel of light. That's what the word (metaschematizo) means.

..Likewise, you don't really think the ministers of Satan are Ministers of Righteousness do you? No, they are transformed or disguised as ministers of righteousness. We all know that.<<


If we all know this and we do, then why did you just waste your time trying to make it look like this is what I am saying by my quoting the Sciptures in 2Corinth.11? I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Satan is an angel of light and I never said his ministers are ministers of righteousness, but of course this has to become the focal point of your rebbutal because it shifts the real focus of what I am saying.

Quote from Tony S:

 "2 Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Let me ask, what color is light? What kind of ministers are these ministers transformed into?"End quote.

You think I would have used the word transformed if I meant that they were righteous? That's ridiculous, of course it is just an appearance of righteousness and Satan takes on the appearance of light, that is exactly what I said when I wrote:

Quote from my previous post:

"The fact is that Satan's rule during the GT period is based on and identified by deception, that is what the GT is all about!"End quote.

Now how can someone come to the conclusion that I am saying that Satan is an angel of light and his ministers are ministers of righteousness? They can't, that is unless that is the conclusion they want to come to or make it seem like that is what I am saying for some reason unknown to me.

>>Neither is Paul saying that. He is saying that they "appear" as an angel of light, and they "appear" as ministers of righteousness.<<

When someone disguises themselves as a clown, do we see the person or do we see a clown? Likewise if Satan disguises himself as an angel of light that means that he appears if he is as white as light, the same with his ministers, they appear as if the are righteous so that even the elect would be deceived if possible.

Matthew 24:23-24  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Only the elect see the difference, to the rest of mankind they appear as if they are righteous, white or pure. It is not for everyone to know that Satan come as the master deceiver in the GT, this is why God speaks in parabolic language.

Matthew 13:10-11  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. In fact God is not neutral in this matter of delusion.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

>>So then, the correct exegesis of corinthians tells us that Satan coming transformed or disguised as an angel or messenger of light, is quite different from God saying Satan "is" an angel of light. Correct?<<

This is what I have been saying all along, I guess I just have to say it more than once.

Tony S

Tony Silva

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Re: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2003, 01:47:10 AM »
>>Ever wonder why this forum doesn't seem to have any arguments until you decide to post? Why do you think that is?  The Reformer actually did post scripture on the white horse of revelation 19, and said quite clearly that Tony did as well. While we all agree, you posted no scripture where satan is seen on a white horse. So, without getting into an argument, please produce such scripture.. I think the rules allows such requests.

Or is it that no such scripture exists?<<



I have posted Scripture where white horses are associated with the phrases "walking to and fro" and "get thee hence". Both of these phrases can be associated with evil.

Isaiah 30:22  Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

Matthew 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The only other place that I have found this exact phrase is in the verse quoted by Tony Warren on a previous post.

1 Kings 17:3  Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

Two uses are evil and one is righteous.

As to the horses going "to and fro" in Zechariah, this is a phrase that is associated with the GT period.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It's interesting that God tells Daniel to seal the words till the time of the end, the exact opposite of the opening of the seals in Rev.6. Then He uses the phrase " many shall run to and fro" during this time exactly what the horses in Zechariah are doing.

Zechariah 1:11  And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Also notice that when these horses are going to and fro, all the earth sitteth still and is at rest. What does God mean by that? The GT period is spoken of as a sabbath.

Matthew 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

We also can't ignore the words in Job which are exactly what these horses are doing.

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

So to answer your question, no I do not know of a verse that says Satan is riding on a white horse, but comparing Scripture with Scripture and knowing that the nature of the GT period is the great time of the deception of Satan coming "APPEARING" as Christ,  and the seals that were put on the words of the book of Daniel will be unsealed close to the end or more than likely during the GT period, then it is not farfetched to say that the rider of the white horse is satan. If you want verses like the one you are asking for, your being lazy, because God hides truth in the Scriptures and it is our privilege to find it and not expect for God to hit us between the eyes with it.

Proverbs 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Also one last refference to horses during the GT period.

Revelation 9:7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Revelation 9:11  And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Obviously these locusts represent Satan and his demons because they came out of the bottomless pit, notice the similar language to Rev. 6, though we are not told what color they are they are wearing crowns and are going unto battle, which incidently the Bible says they will conquer the saints at this time.

Revelation 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

>>Ever wonder why this forum doesn't seem to have any arguments until you decide to post?<<

I don't have to wonder I know why, it is because most of you that answer my posts cannot do so civilly, but try to cut my posts down wth personal arguement and opinion, you all rely on Tony Warren to rebut my posts and then you all jump on his coatails as if you were doing the talking, that is the reason there is arguements. And as long as Tony Warren allows that type of behaviour there will always be arguement when I post, but I can deal with that if I have to.

Tony S

 


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