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Author Topic: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy  (Read 5232 times)

rswylie2000

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Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« on: March 03, 2007, 07:48:48 PM »
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 07:58:08 PM »
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick

Welcome!
 Well you need to give us more help than that. What specific passages are you referring to? Where is this promise to return to the land, which you speak of?
   Thanks,



Penne

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 10:13:30 PM »
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick

God fulfilled His promise to Israel concerning physical land.  He already gave it. 
Joshua 21:43-45
"43  And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."

Joshua 23:1-5
"1  And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
2  And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age:
3  And ye have seen all that the LORD your God hath done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that hath fought for you.
4  Behold, I have divided unto you by lot these nations that remain, to be an inheritance for your tribes, from Jordan, with all the nations that I have cut off, even unto the great sea westward.
5  And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you."

1 Kings 8:56
56  Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Neh 9:7-8 & 23
"7  Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
8  And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:"

23  "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it."

So you can see by reading the above verses the promise was fulfilled.

Christ delivered Israel and established His kingdom. 
Colossians 1:13
  "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

Luke 1:33
 "And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Gal 3:13
 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

Eph 2:5-6
5  "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

rswylie2000

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 07:17:20 PM »
It is verses like these that confuse me . . .

Jer 32:41  I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Jer 24:6  I will set my eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up, and not tear them down; I will plant them, and not uproot them.

Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

Is The land of Israel and his dwelling at Mt. Zion only symbolic and foreshadowing of his presense immediately among his people in the person of Christ?  Are there any promises left concerning the land of Palestine that are yet unfulfilled?  These passages seem so clear that very specific promises were made to the Israelites that they would again dwell en-mass in the promised land.  I have rejected the dispensational interpretation of who spiritual Israel is, but these verses are still sticky for me as to the total rejection of that system.  Thanks again.

Penne

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 11:26:25 AM »
It is verses like these that confuse me . . .

Jer 32:41  I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Jer 24:6  I will set my eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up, and not tear them down; I will plant them, and not uproot them.

Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

Is The land of Israel and his dwelling at Mt. Zion only symbolic and foreshadowing of his presense immediately among his people in the person of Christ?  Are there any promises left concerning the land of Palestine that are yet unfulfilled?  These passages seem so clear that very specific promises were made to the Israelites that they would again dwell en-mass in the promised land.  I have rejected the dispensational interpretation of who spiritual Israel is, but these verses are still sticky for me as to the total rejection of that system.  Thanks again.

Spiritual Israel is any one in Christ.
Gal. 3:26-29
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Joshua 21:43-45 shows that God did give Israel all the land He swore to them.

43  And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Jer.31-33
31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-8
6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Jesus did make a new Covenant with the house of Israel.  This house isnít to the nation of Israel in the Middle East but to those who are in Christ.

Luke 22:20
20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Gal. 3:13
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I do not know of any promises to Palestine other than to those people that will be sealed unto the promise in Jesus Christ. 

rswylie2000

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 05:33:45 PM »
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

What is to be made of these verses?  DO these not seem to point to a permanent posession of a particular piece of landscape?

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?

Penne

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 07:43:49 PM »
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?

Amos 9 is talking to spiritual Israel.  The land is the Promise Land in Jesus.

Read Tony Warren's article http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.html

Here's a portion from it.

God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.
The Covenant Promises of the literal land of Canaan to that nation Israel were never unconditional, and those theologians who make such claims only show a real lack of knowledge of both the scriptures, and the promises. The land given to Israel was conditional, and God made that very clear to them many times. He also made it clear that He is no longer obligated, and has fulfilled His promises to them. It's only the indoctrinated teachers of Premillennialism (having become more politically minded than biblically minded) who have decided that God hasn't kept all of His promises of what He sware to their fathers. In their arrogance, they insist that God hasn't given them rest, peace, nor delivered their enemies into their hand as He promised. But when we search the scriptures diligently, to see what God has to say, we see that the truth is a bit different from man's theologies.

    Joshua 21:43

    * "And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their Fathers; And they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
    * And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
    * There Failed Not Ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; All Came To Pass".

According to the word of some prominent theologians, God hasn't yet keep all the promises that He had made to their fathers, but according to 'the ultimate authority,' which is God's Word, He didn't fail in one single promise that He made to the fathers of Israel concerning the land. Thus God owes Israel nothing. He fulfilled all that He sware He would do concerning the land. It was clearly never an unconditional promise, and so when they forsook God, His judgments came upon them, and their enemies around them conquered them. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point.

    On the other hand, the promise to Abraham "and" his Seed, was not a promise of 'literal' land. God says the Seed in view in that promise was 'not' the nation, but Christ. And that is the inheritance which was unconditional (not based upon works), and that Covenant was everlasting. So though many spend volumes trying to confuse the issue, let us not confuse the unconditional promises to Abraham and 'HIS SEED' (Christ), with the conditional promise of the literal land to the people of Israel.

    Galatians 3:16

    * "Now unto Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He saith not, unto seeds, as of many; but as one ONE, and to thy Seed, Which Is Christ.
    * And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of None Effect."



Reformer

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2007, 08:46:25 PM »
 Tony is right concerning this. God made two promises. One to Abraham's seed, and the other to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ.  One a picture of the old covenant, which couldn't be kept, and the other of the new covenant that is kept in Christ.

 Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

This is the physical land promised Israel, Abraham's seed. And the promise was fulfilled and conditions set on it in order for them to stay there.

 De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

If you read on you will see that God told them plainly it was not unconditional and he would take it from them. The problem is, the premillennial and other worldly oriented theologians are preoccupied with the nation of Israel, instead of the bible.

But we seek for a better nation and a land that cannot be conquered or plowed under by Romans, the true promised land is not in Israel, but is Israel. That oilive tree in Romans 11 represents the Israel of God, not a physical nation. The 144,000 represent the spiritual people of God, not a physical people of God.


judykanova

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2007, 11:39:49 PM »
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

What is to be made of these verses?  DO these not seem to point to a permanent posession of a particular piece of landscape?

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?

rswylie2000, in conjunction to those things that Pene and Reformer has already spoken of concerning the literal promises that have already been fulfilled in terms of the land that God promised Abraham,  you may want to read Jeremiah 8 which helps illuminate that fact that the promises you sited in Amos can no longer be attributed to national Israel.

Christ's sacrifice in essense was a spiritual death blow to Israel, while it afforded spiritual life to all other (gentile) nations of the world.  The NT churches not only replaced
Israel as God's ambassadors and caretakers of the Word, but moreoever, national Israel was forever condemed (spiritually) as a nation. 

Thus when you read such verses as those in Amos, you have to reconcile them with polar opposite verses that can be found in such places as Jeremiah:

Jer 8:4  Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer 8:5  Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return. . ..

Jer 8:12  Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jer 8:13  I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

Jer 10:15† They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.


As you know the nation as a whole rejected Christ at the time of His "visitation" which put the nail in their cofin, so to speak.

This seeming fascination and deference towards Israel today is inexplicable and irrational.  It  defies reason that anyone would think that God would bestow blessings on a people who as a whole have rejected and hated His Son from the time of their "visitation",  to this present day.  In this regard they have more in common wtih their Muslim kin than they do with Christians.   

What I find even more amazaing is this 'courtship' Christain churches seem to have with a nation that is NO LONGER blessed by God and, according to Scripture will NEVER be blessed by God in terms a true spiritual blessings, although a remnant is included among the true Israel of God

I was going to start a thread to discuss this very thing and hope to post more on this topic soon.

Judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Hannah

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2007, 11:42:25 AM »
Quote
God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.

Wasn't the promise of land made under the Abrahamic Covenant, which was unconditional?  And wasn't it made for "forever?"  This is the scripture I am thinking of:

 Genesis 17: 7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
 8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

My understanding is the promises of the Abrahamic covenant are unconditional and the terms of the Mosaic covenant are conditional.  This is God talking to Abraham before the Mosaic covenant ever came to be.

Hannah



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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 11:53:27 AM »
Quote
God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.

Wasn't the promise of land made under the Abrahamic Covenant, which was unconditional?  And wasn't it made for "forever?"  This is the scripture I am thinking of:

 Genesis 17: 7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
 8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

My understanding is the promises of the Abrahamic covenant are unconditional and the terms of the Mosaic covenant are conditional.  This is God talking to Abraham before the Mosaic covenant ever came to be.

Hannah





No, if that was an unconditional "forever Covenant of the land," then that would make God a liar, because he took the land away from them because of their wickedness. Therefore it can in no way be seen as an unconditional covenant about the land. God told them straight off, if they disobeyed, they would be cast out of the land just like those before them. There was never an unconditional covenant for the land.

This was a covenant for a land greater than that found in the middle east, but the true promised land to Abraham and his seed.

 Galatians 3:16-17
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect".

Hannah

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 03:46:55 PM »
Pearson,

So when it says "all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession" this does not mean the literal land of Canaan?  The land spoken of here means something else?  Does it mean the earth, as in the meek shall inherit the earth?

Hannah


8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."




dsouzaanthony

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 11:13:21 PM »
Pearson,

So when it says "all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession" this does not mean the literal land of Canaan?  The land spoken of here means something else?  Does it mean the earth, as in the meek shall inherit the earth?

Hannah


8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."




Hi Hannah,


Let's see what scriptures say further.......


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Verse 10 gives us our spiritual land of promise. The possession of this land by the Jews (true Christians) is forever.


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Dsouzaanthony


Joe Johnson

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2019, 03:05:53 AM »
I notice that you all keep saying that the promises were conditional and were all fulfilled, but God did not say that. He promised them the land forever unconditionally. So where do you get it that it was conditional? Either give scripture or you know that can't be true. Israel is back in the land because it was promised them.

(Genesis 17:8 )
And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them. [Darby's Translation]


Davis

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Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2019, 04:25:29 AM »
Didn't you read the thread? It has been explained.  )peace(

 


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