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Author Topic: The Apologetics of This Website  (Read 14534 times)

SEEN_CHA

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 12:39:10 AM »
Where is the christian love here? Preaching hell is not love.


     Preaching hell is not love huh, well I would have to disagree.  Although hell does not have to be the whole of the conversation, I believe it has its place in it. Out of love is why we tell others of Christ, out of love is why Christ taught of hell himself.  Take for example a well know verse: JOHN 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  Look at where it says, "...should not perish", what does that mean?  It means Jesus was saying if in fact you believe in me you will not perish in hell.  How could one appreciate, or even understand what Christ has done for mankind, if one was not told of the place that He could save them from?  So by taking your statement about love then would mean that I shouldn't tell someone that the wages of sin is death.  And again the "death" means an eternal seperation from God in the lake of fire, should I no longer warn others about this place. God has given us authority to speak on His behalf, and I pray that we as Christians shall no longer bridle the Spirits words that He gives us to speak for the salvation of others, weather it be politically correct or not.

     I would be afraid to post something as bold as to tell someone its wrong to preach about hell, exspecially if God was laing it on ones heart to preach about it.  What if that was what it took for a certain individual to finally except Christ, for them to hear about hell.  We all had that one thing that was the turning point in our lives that made us finally wake up and smell the coffee just before our salvation.  May I never be a stubmling block in anothers  path to salvation.

     One more question for you, what if God puts it on your heart to tell someone about salvation and part of what you are to say is something about hell, what then?  No need to reply back to me, thats between you and God, I just want you to think about that.
      IN ALL THIS I WRITE, I WRITE IN LOVE, NOT TO BEAT DOWN OR CAUSE STRIFE BUT TO TEACH AND TO GIVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU MAY NOT HAVE SEEN BEFORE. I MYSELF HAVE HAD THIS DONE FOR IN THE PAST ALSO, AND I LOOK BACK AND THANK GOD THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE CARED ENOUGH TO SHOW ME MY SHORT COMINGS.  AND IT HAS MADE ME A BETTER CHRISTIAN AND MORE PLEASING TO GOD THAT I LISTENED TO WISE COUNSEL.
      Weather this is wise counsel is up to you to decide, how you make your decision is easy, see if what I wrote corresponds with scripture.  May God continue to bless you and your family, and I will be looking forward to seeing you when we all get to heaven, not hell.
   
GOD BLESS,
   SCOTT

yaboo

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2008, 11:16:02 AM »
I think what Apostolic was asking is a simple question. Where is the love? He doesn't feel any love here, and neither do I. Everything doesn't have to be fire and brimstone, does it? Don't we all have opinions? So why does your opinion carry so much more weight than his? Can't you hate the sin and yet love the sinner?

 Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When I come to a christian group, I want to feel loved, I want to have joyous fellowship, I want to go away feeling better about myself, not go away being told I am a sinner who is going to hell. Or being stripped of all my self respect. That's no way to treat people who come to you for help. I agree with Apostolic, where is the love?

The bottom line is, that is why some churches are growing, and others disappearing. The good prevail because they have love, which is what people want.

Betty

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2008, 03:50:49 PM »
I couldn't agree with Apostolic and yaboo more. The apologetics of hate, fear and ignorance. It is the lack of love that has killed the conservative churches stone dead. However some churches are growing. Liberal churches. For example, the inner-city churches, churches that preach love, small-town evangelical churches. And most of all, Pentecostal and charismatic congregations are generally growing much faster than all others. I know the people here hate that, but that just goes to show that the spirit, growth and love go hand in hand. while legalism and law causes defeat.

The first benchmark of a "good" church is "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22.37-39).

So, how do you find a "good" church? Most good churches are growing. They're growing because they're committed to love, compassion, womens rights and self respect. Not to old fashioned ideas about law and sexism. Choose your church wisely. Pentecostal and charismatic churches are growing rapidly because of their focus on love and the personal experience of the spirit of love. When people come out of a Pentecostal service, they've experienced something and feel good about themselves. When I come to this forum, I feel like I have been hit with a stick.

midas

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2008, 12:27:01 AM »
Betty, you could go on and add

Luk 6:27-28  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

If this verse and others like it were the only verses in the bible that instructs us on how to act or treat others, then I would agree with you however this is not the "whole counsel of GOD" The above verse and others similar tells us what to do during our walk in everyday life and with our neighbors, friends and enemies however God has specific, different instructions on what to do with false teachers. And it is not love them as you would yourself. God says stay away from them, avoid them - We are to distinguish between those who oppose God's work and those who personally wrong us

2Ti 4:14  Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: This is Paul praying against Alexander the coppersmith who did Paul much harm and "greatly resisted" the truth - I don't see God in the bible saying love this man. It's crucial to distinguish between personal wrongs, which we must be willing to forgive, and deliberate attacks on the gospel of Christ, which the Lord will judge

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Accursed  1. under a curse; doomed; ill-fated.  2. damnable; detestable. Now, what kind of love is God teaching here - Paul saying any man that is a false teacher let him be damnable - Does this teaching say love him anyways and try to win him over?

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark.them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. When one turns from the truth we must strive to restore that one but if he will not be restored we must mark that one as a false teacher and avoid him God is saying this not me - God says avoid them, good bye

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? God speaking again - not me ... Example of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Church

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.  2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:  2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. This is God telling us what to do and it is not the same that what Betty is telling us to do

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Pentecostal and charismatic churches are growing rapidly because of their focus on love and the personal experience of the spirit of love. When people come out of a Pentecostal service, they've experienced something and feel good about themselves

The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church- It is sad, when a false teacher, with smooth words and fair speeches, can deceive people and is more readily received than one who will stand firm for the truth of God's word. 

This Forum = The teacher of truth is often viewed as a trouble maker or one who simply doesn't have the proper love for others.

Read the verses in Blue above = this is why some here feel not loved or avoided - its Gods teachings




Matrix

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2008, 09:11:39 AM »
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So, how do you find a "good" church? Most good churches are growing. They're growing because they're committed to love, compassion, womens rights and self respect.

Betty,
I love the apologetics of the Mountain Retreat! And women's rights? This isn't about politics, a woman has no right to be a Pastor of a church, just as a man has no right to wear womens clothes. Because as christians we obey God rather than our own will. God has given each gender responsibility and an office. Who are you to argue wirth God? As Erik asked, are you smarter than God? The apologetics of this site are in line with the bible, and that is what the liberal churches and christians do not appreciate. That we are always ready to give a defense of the law of the gospel in humility and fear. My conscience is clear. How about yours?

 1 Peter 3:15-16
  "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
  Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ".

 You may speak evil of me, of this site, of other christians who follow God's laws, but we seek to please christ, not men. Because we love, even as Christ loved.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2008, 01:14:06 PM »
>>>
I think what Apostolic was asking is a simple question. Where is the love?
<<<

And I think his question was answered. And it was answered simply. True love is in the faithful preaching of the gospel, that men and women might be saved. That's where it is. It is not in feeling empathy for someone's position, or feeling sorry for people, it is in agape or Godly Charity wherein we desire for them the very best, the same good that we desired for ourselves (Matthew 22:39).  And that is salvation! In this way we show the same love for our neighbor, as for ourselves. That is to say, the true Christian love rather than worldly love. The problem is, most Christians themselves don't actually know what agape love is. A great many of them get their definitions from Webster's Dictionary, rather than from God. They believe that it is mere niceties, or infatuation, or emotion, sensitivity, empathy, feelings, comradeship, etc. To them Godly Love is reduced to mere sentimentality. But that is not love as God defines it, it is love as man defines it. Remember, Christ came as the world's best example of Love, and yet the great majority of men/women whom He came in contact with, ultimately didn't see him as Love, nor think that his ideas of love and lawfulness were valid. And I'm talking about what was then God's own congregation. So what makes you think that God's congregation has learned their lesson since then? What in the world would bring you to that conclusion seeing its derelict condition today?

Revelation 3:19
  • "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Now why would God rebuke and Chasten those whom He loves? Think about it. The very thing that man in his pride (or self-respect as you call it) hates the most, is to be rebuked and chastened. It's embarrassing and goes against his PRIDE! Yet God says because He "LOVES" them, He chastens and rebukes. A far cry from modern man's definition of love. A far cry from Today's church's definition of love.


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When I come to a Christian group, I want to feel loved, I want to have joyous fellowship, I want to go away feeling better about myself,
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You want to feel... You want? Maybe true Christianity isn't all about your feelings or all about what you want! Maybe it's not all about your will at all. Ever think that just maybe it's about taking up your cross and following Christ? How would you "FEEL" like in doing that? Was that a good feeling for Christ?  Just maybe true Christianity is all about Godly charity and love for others. Maybe true Christianity is seen in obedience, not in today's churches commiseration or Christian narcissistic behavior. Maybe it's just not all about you and your feelings, but about the love for your neighbor. Consider the LOVE in the parable of the Good Samaritan and judge wisely.

Luke 10:36-37
  • "Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?
  • And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."

He that showed mercy on him loved his neighbor as he loved himself. It was he that gave of himself, for his neighbor. He didn't fill the man's head with empty platitudes of humanistic love, he put oil on his wounds and paid out of his own pocket what was needed to make that man well. And he didn't ask for a love offering to do it, it was a "selfless act" on his part. Not like Christians today who want to be paid for everything, including what they BELIEVE is their own gospel writings and messages of instruction. Is that love? True Christianity is about "freely" helping others to get spiritually well. Not commiserating or helping others to feel good about themselves. Perhaps churches have confused Christianity with the Oprah Winfrey show. True Christianity says "we are worms." It says our hearts are desperately wicked, so that--who can know it? It says we are sinners akin to little snakes that have no reason to feel good about themselves. Yes, I know, Psychologists are cringing everywhere!!! But true Christians KNOW this, and that is why they are humble/meek when it comes to RECEIVING God's word. No, we can't feel good about ourselves when we KNOW ourselves--until we feel good about Christ who has redeemed us. Until we make Him "LORD" of our lives. Not the pretend lord that most Christians suppose, but actual LORD/RULER wherein our will is to do His Will. Until we do that, we will always go through life feeling sorry for ourselves and seeking someone to make us "feel good." We might as well just be saying, "Lie to me, tell me I'm right!"

1st Kings 22:8
  • "And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil..."

But can a man but say what God declares and lays upon his heart? So then, if you want to feel loved, pray that God would grant you the Spirit of the blessed hope, wherein no matter where you are, or who you speak to, you will "KNOW" you are loved by knowing Christ. If you want to have joyous fellowship, pray for a better relationship with the father wherein you will be content in the ultimate communion with Christ, and thus have fellowship with righteous men. And if you want to go away feeling better about yourself, then RECEIVE the unadulterated word of God, direct from the mouth of God, and I guarantee you will feel better about yourself knowing, God has worked within you to do "HIS WILL."


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..not go away being told I am a sinner who is going to hell.
<<<


Or is that just another way of telling God to shut up, you don't want to hear that kind of truth?

Proverbs 19:16
  • "He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die."

Please God, don't say that? Please God tell me smooth things, tell me things I want to hear, prophecy deceits?

Ezekiel 18:20
  • " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Shall we, as witnesses to truth, not say the sinner is going to hell? Well then we aren't witnesses of God, are we? And that may be the philosophy of the Churches today, but it is an apostasy away from God's word. I guarantee you that if you seek people to tell you that you shall have peace, and that you are safe in their church, you will find them all over the place. They are as plentiful as grass, Selah! No pun intended. But beware, because sin or law breaking in God's house always comes with consequences.

1st Thessalonians 5:3
  • "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

When they shall say all is well, you shall have peace, you deserve better, you need to feel good about yourself, you, you, you, you.... beware!


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Or being stripped of all my self respect. That's no way to treat people who come to you for help.
<<<

The TRUTH is, self-respect is just another word for man's pride. Why did the King throw John the Baptist into prison? Because what John said, righteous and TRUE though it was, hurt the king's self respect or pride. Man hates being rebuked or told that he is "not really" doing lawfully. But the reality of the Christian's true nature is manifested in his humility/meekness before the word of God to ACCEPT/RECEIVE whatever it says, regardless of tradition, belief or will. While this Pride leads the unfaithful to apostasize or forsake God in departing from the faith, humility leads them to RECEIVE the truth. Pride or self respect is another aspect of self-love, wherein man feeling good about himself is deluded into thinking that no one could ever call him to an account for disobedience or lawlessness. Then Grace becomes a word meaning "License," or "Liberty" as some Churches so Euphemistically call it.

I say yes, strip yourself of your self respect and look at yourself as God does. Get a mirror! And you will see that none of us deserve any respect of self. Especially "from" ourselves! And this honest realization is the beginning of wisdom!

Psalms 10:4-6
  • "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
  • His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
  • He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity."

God is not in all his thoughts because he has not made God "LORD" and Master of his life. I say respect God, rather than self!
 

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The bottom line is, that is why some churches are growing, and others disappearing.
<<<

In that you have spoken truly. Some churches are indeed growing because of the way they define love, because of the way they are subdued by the world, because of the way they preach lawlessness in the guise of self-respect, in lieu of lawfulness. Pentecostal/Charismatic is just another way of saying False Church. And any false Church shall be judged according to it's works. These groups were once only a fringe group on the outskirts of Christianity, and they have indeed grown like a choking vine crawling into every denomination. ...as was prophesied!

Matthew 24:24
  • "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Christ is all but telling us point blank that the church's great danger is not from without (outside), but from seducers that come in Christ's name, and pretend to work signs and wonders by his authority. This is the power of the Antichrist spirit Satan, coming as ministers of righteousness with this power of seduction and delusion that many are carried away by these false teachers. And what does minister of righteousness mean? It means he comes preaching Love, preaching signs, preaching the humility of Christ, preaching liberty, preaching forgiveness. hat's the Whole Point Christ is making here and throughout the bible. That they are pseudo-Christs, not the true body of Christ. that they are so good that they might even deceive the elect if it were possible. But who is listening to Christ?

...certainly not those deceived by Lying signs and wonders.


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 The good prevail because they have love, which is what people want.
<<<

The good OVERCOME/PREVAIL because they are in Christ and in Him they can't help but endure, not because they like Churches that make them feel good. Or that babble. Or that teach self-respect. That's NONSENSE! That's not love, that's the delusion they want, and the delusion they will get.

John 14:15
  • "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

That is to say "IF" we love Christ. Do you have any idea what that actually says, and that it means what it says?

John 15:10
  • "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

The key words there are "IF," and unfortunately, most Churches today wouldn't know the love of God if a book fell from the sky and whacked them in the head. They'd no doubt call it the devil's work. ...as did those before them.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Tony Warren

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2008, 01:36:57 PM »
>>>
I couldn't agree with Apostolic and yaboo more. The apologetics of hate, fear and ignorance.
<<<

The Apologetics of this website are of Knowledge of the Lord, not of the ignorance and mindless confabulation of many others. Fear, yes. The Apologetics of the fear of God. News Flash! "It's a Good Thing!" Of hatred? Yes, of hatred of the wickedness that vexes all true Sons/Children of God, but of which pseudo-christians commiserate with and make excuses for.

Psalms 97:10
  • "Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."
Psalms 119:113
  • "I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love."
Psalms 119:163
  • "I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love."
Proverbs 1:22
  • "How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?"
Proverbs 8:36
  • "But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."
Proverbs 9:8
  • "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."
Ecclesiastes 3:8
  • "A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
Isaiah 61:8
  • "For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them."
Amos 5:15
  • "Hate the evil, and love the good,and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph."

Hatred of our neighbors, NO! Hatred of evil and every vain and wicked thing opposing the Lord, yes! For we cannot be for Him, and be against him! Some day you might learn what even most parents today have forgotten. That Love is not in giving children whatever they want to make them feel good. To show Love. That may pass for love in some circles, but that is hatred and man leaning unto man's own understanding.


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It is the lack of love that has killed the conservative churches stone dead.
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The conservative church, the church that doesn't allow the word of God to be treated as rubbish (conserve) or valueless to be trampled under foot, will never die. It is the church that preaches Christ, who is the Pillar and foundation of truth. It is the only church that has overcome, and so will prevail to the end. It may be silenced, but it will never be forgotten or forsaken.

1st Timothy 3:15
  • "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

The church of the living God does not die. It is a witness to truth, not to lies. But the church of the humanistic love of debauchery, will die. ...in protest at the last day of its supposed good works (Matthew 7:22).


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However some churches are growing. Liberal churches.
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That's the difference between this website, and your idea of churches growing in love. You look upon that growth as a good thing, when truly it is the prophesied departing from the faith, prior to the return of the Lord. I look at it as a spreading cancer, not as true spiritual growth! True, cancer grows, but it does so by eating away at the very fabric that keeps the body alive.    Selah!

1st Timothy 4:1-2
  • "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
  • Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

And why do they depart from the faith? God says it is because their conscience is burned and scared. In other words, they are no longer "sensitive" to the holiness of God, their conscience being hardened against God by their own lusts and vanity. Liberal Churches are a plague upon the people and a scourge upon the land, not a blessing. The spirit of anti or pseudo-christ, the seducing spirit saying "peace, peace, when there is no peace," while preaching doctrines of devils. Yes, these churches are growing.
 

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 And most of all, Pentecostal and charismatic congregations are generally growing much faster than all others.
<<<

And why is that? Why are Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations growing as the professing Christians become more and more unfaithful? There is a pattern there. The cancer grows, the good flesh becomes less and less. Without constraint, the end of which is inevitable.

Mark 13:21-23
  • "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
  • For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
  • But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

There "IS" a pattern here. Behold, Christ has told us before. Which doesn't mean He'll tell us again.


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I know the people here hate that, but that just goes to show that the spirit, growth and love go hand in hand. while legalism and law causes defeat.
<<<


What is legalism? Do you even know? Or are you just parroting a line?

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/what_is_legalism.shtml

People here may hate that the spirit of Antichrist is growing in the world, but they don't hate sinners.  Because they know that's exactly what they were before Christ opened their eyes. That's not necessarily a bad thing.


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The first benchmark of a "good" church is "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22.37-39).
<<<

And one who holds faithfully to this precept would never call exhortation to obedience, legalism. Because that is what the Lord's prophets and ministers have been doing from the beginning. But liberal churches wouldn't know obedience if it were written on the pages of a book. Because it is. Yet we fight on against them, and our weapons are not hate or fear, but the word of God.

2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
  • "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
  • Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

Romans 16:26
  • "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Grace, Love, Faith, Law and Obedience go hand in hand when one is truly in Christ.


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So, how do you find a "good" church? Most good churches are growing. They're growing because they're committed to love, compassion, womens rights and self respect.
<<<

Your deadly sophistry does not turn darkness into light. I don't know where you get your facts, but Good churches are not growing, they are declining so fast that most people cannot even find one. But like I said, if you want self-respect, see a Psychologist or watch Oprah Winfrey, but if you want true peace of mind, you will only find that in the Spirit of Christ. Be as the Bereans and follow after righteousness. A biblical mind is like a parachute. It works much better when it's open.

Proverbs 15:9-10
  • "The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
  • Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die."

In man's self respect, he despises correction and reproof, choosing rather to delude himself that life is all about feeling good and serving self.


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Pentecostal and charismatic churches are growing rapidly because of their focus on love and the personal experience of the spirit of love.
<<<

What is a personal experience? Is reading the scriptures and knowing of the Spirit that they are true, a personal experience? Is everyone who sanctifies the Lord God in their hearts, where they are always ready to give an answer to every man that asks a reason of the hope, a personal experience. Is Christ living within the true believer to will and top do of His good pleasure, a personal experience? I say yes. These are true personal experiences, rather than emotions and sentiments and humanistic feelings sold as the spirit in the Pseudo-churches.

2nd Peter 3:16-18
  • "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
  • Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
  • But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

We grow in Grace, not in personal humanistic experiences mimicking God's miracles. I experience the Spirit of God every time I open up my Bible and glean some glorious truth from it's pages.

1st Thessalonians 2:13
  • "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

Romans 8:16
  • "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

 There is our TRUE personal experience with God, and it's not in feigned babbling unknown tongues or physical healings or making the crippled walk. It's in truth, not in humanistic fantasy!


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>>>
When people come out of a Pentecostal service, they've experienced something and feel good about themselves.
<<<

Revelation 17:8
  • "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

If you want to wonder after the Beast, that's your prerogative. But when I "see" such abominations as the woman on the beast, I will flee, rather than wonder (admire or marvel) at it.

Revelation 17:7
  • "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."

Has God revealed to you the mystery of the Great Harlot on the Beast, or do you marvel and admire it's image?


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>>>
When I come to this forum, I feel like I have been hit with a stick.
<<<

Proverbs 23:13-14
  • "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  • Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

All I can say is, Selah! ...Words to live by!

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Apostolic

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 11:57:29 AM »
I couldn't agree with Apostolic and yaboo more. The apologetics of hate, fear and ignorance. It is the lack of love that has killed the conservative churches stone dead.

Thanks Betty. I find it particularly distasteful when people go on and on about there being no miracles today. That shows a lack of love, because miracles happen every day. Especially in 3rd world countries. The apologetics of this forum ignores all those miracles that help so many people believe.


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So, how do you find a "good" church? Most good churches are growing. They're growing because they're committed to love, compassion, womens rights and self respect. Not to old fashioned ideas about law and sexism. Choose your church wisely. Pentecostal and charismatic churches are growing rapidly because of their focus on love and the personal experience of the spirit of love. When people come out of a Pentecostal service, they've experienced something and feel good about themselves. When I come to this forum, I feel like I have been hit with a stick.

You are sooooooooooo right! Pentecostalism preaches love, not that God will beat you if you are bad. I've never been beaten. These people in this forum remind me of abussive parents that spank their children when they misbehave. Hitting never solved any problems, it only adds to them. The same with hitting someone over the head with a bible.



Erik Diamond

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 12:02:32 PM »
Quote
Pentecostalism preaches love, not that God will beat you if you are bad. I've never been beaten. These people in this forum remind me of abussive parents that spank their children when they misbehave. Hitting never solved any problems, it only adds to them. The same with hitting someone over the head with a bible.

Obviously, you have not listen to our testimony with Scripture or even studying Bible yourself carefully.  You have not yet offer scripture support for your rebuttal. All you do is talking out of emotions.  Such sad condition of church today.   

Peace,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 12:05:13 PM »
And why is that? Why are Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations growing as the professing christians become more and more unfaithful? There is a pattern here. The cancer grows, the good flesh becomes les and less. Without constraint, the end of which is inevitable.




Mr Warren,
  Don't think you know everything. Our church is growing because it gives people personal experience in relationship to god's wonderful miracles. Don't you understand? Some people need miracles to believe, and that is why God gives his servants this power to do these miracles. That is why people cast out demons and heal the sick. That's why god speaks to christians in tongues to bring them closer to the spirit. He gets personal.

The explanation you probably give for your lack of faith in miracles is that God doesn't need to show himself like that anymore. I've heard it before. But I think that's bull because the way the world is today we need the most convincing miracles of all. After all, people are a lot smarter these days than they were in Christ's day. They need to see these miracles to strengthen their faith. You preach the spirit of doubt, not of strengthening faith.

Apostolic

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 12:07:18 PM »
Quote
Pentecostalism preaches love, not that God will beat you if you are bad. I've never been beaten. These people in this forum remind me of abussive parents that spank their children when they misbehave. Hitting never solved any problems, it only adds to them. The same with hitting someone over the head with a bible.

Obviously, you have not listen to our testimony with Scripture or even studying Bible yourself carefully.  You have not yet offer scripture support for your rebuttal. All you do is talking out of emotions.  Such sad condition of church today.   

Peace,
Erik


Sorry Erik. Here ya Go.

Hebrews 2:4
And God was a witness with them, by signs and wonders, and by more than natural powers, and by his distribution of the Holy Spirit at his pleasure.

 

Raybob

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2008, 12:29:35 PM »
Quote
Pentecostalism preaches love, not that God will beat you if you are bad. I've never been beaten.

I know you think God is a loving God but did you ever stop to count the many times in the bible where it clearly shows He hates?  For instance:

Pro 6:16-19  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:  (17)  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,  (18)  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,  (19)  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Mal 1:2-3  I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,  (3)  And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Did God punish all those people living before the flood?  Did God punish all those people at Sodom and Gomorrah?

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These people in this forum remind me of abussive parents that spank their children when they misbehave. Hitting never solved any problems, it only adds to them. The same with hitting someone over the head with a bible.

If one raises their child in the ways of the Lord, you call them abusive. ::)
Pro 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Pro 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pro 23:13-14  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  (14)  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 29:15  The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Raybob

John

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 01:18:51 AM »
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Don't think you know everything. Our church is growing because it gives people personal experience in relationship to god's wonderful miracles.

An Arminian false salvation combined with emotional vanity and lying wonders is a sure recipe to grow a church, but it will be a false gospel church, a church in which Satan rules, not God. If these practitioners knew themselves to be deceived, they would not be deceived. But because they preach lies, they remain deceived.

Joh 9:41
41 --  Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see; therefore, your sin remains.



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Don't you understand? Some people need miracles to believe, and that is why God gives his servants this power to do these miracles.


You say miracles are needed so people will believe. God says otherwise! True belief comes from God acting upon the rebel heart - not through miracles; miracle cannot alter a dead spirit. If we believe on Christ it is because we have been given a regenerated spirit, not because of external enticements. 

Php 1:29
29 --  For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake


In fact, the kind of 'believing' you are speaking of is the wild-eyed emotional hysteria that has nothing to do with true Christianity.

Despite the hysteria and speculation of great miracles over there somewhere, despite the rumors of great moving of the Spirit going on in some other place, the evidence of healings and such are always unverified old tales passed around like gossip. When has there ever been a single verified miracle in our time? Many have tried to find one, many claims are made, but none have been verified. When faith-healers are put to the test they fail to produce a healing, not even the smallest kind - all of them fail. This doesn't stop the Pentecostalist from claiming God is healing today and it doesn't stop the carnal minded thrill-seeker from falling headlong into the scam.


2Pe 2:2-3
2 --  And many will follow their pernicious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
3 --  And through covetousness they will use you for gain with well-turned words; for whom judgment from of old does not linger, and their destruction does not sleep.




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That is why people cast out demons and heal the sick. That's why god speaks to christians in tongues to bring them closer to the spirit. He gets personal.


The reason Jesus cast out demons and healed all the sick that came to Him was to demonstrate that if He could heal physical ailments then His claim that He was the Savior who has come into the world to heal SPIRITUALLY would be understood as a valid claim.

False-christs going forth claiming unspecified, unverified, and ultimately unproveable healings has nothing to do with true Christianity. Perhaps even sader than their obvious deception; the final disgrace is the Arminian heresy that is offered as the salvation message that accompanies it all.

 Would God jazz up ignorant carnally minded people with make-believe miracles and signs and wonders, just to aid their belief in a man-made salvation that cannot save? Obviously if the gospel is Satanic, and the preachers are teaching lies, there is good reason to suspect the accompanying miracles and claims of divine healings are not from God. And if not from God -- then it is of Satan. And not surprisingly it is Satan that comes with a gospel message that mimics the Light; it is Satan that comes to this evil generation of sign and wonder seekers with -- signs and wonders.

More importantly, no one is able to believe because they see a miracle. Even if a Pentecostal preacher were able to raise someone from the dead, it would do nothing. Why? The spiritually dead will not be persuaded. Repentance requires a change wrought by God in regeneration.

Luk 16:30-31
30 --  And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
31 --  And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.



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The explanation you probably give for your lack of faith in miracles is that God doesn't need to show himself like that anymore. I've heard it before.



You've heard it before, but your trust is not based on walking by faith, but by sight. Specifically, you and those like you must believe it, for to doubt would cause you to lose your special blessing, or whatever 'hook' the Pentecostal preacher uses to make you fear rational thought.

The "belief" that you think to be so wonderful is the emotional saturation that comes from the charged carnival-like pep-rally not too dissimilar to the sales pitch of the multi-level marketing hucksters.

There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the Pentecostal fervor and the MLM fervor - they both work to generate short-term 'belief' and instill a fearfulness of not believing. For the MLM it is the fear of losing your investment and losing future sales. For the Pentecostal it is a fear of losing God's approval and missing out on (supposed) blessings, or worse, falling from grace.

The practioner runs from healing story to healing story - accepting it all in the hopes of keeping the sagging "belief" alive and to avoid the 'sin' of unbelief that will quench the Holy Spirit (or similar nonsense). Is not this deception a great evil? Even worse, the salvation proclamation that comes along with the sales pitch is equally a scam -- the entire Satanic spectical is both pathetic and tragic.


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But I think that's bull because the way the world is today we need the most convincing miracles of all.


Mar 8:11-12
11 --  And the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking a sign from Heaven from Him, tempting Him.
12 --  And He sighed deeply in His spirit and said, Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly I say to you, There shall no sign be given to this generation.



You have been told that miracles will drive people to Christ. The truth is that miracles are for the titillation of those with an unregenerate spirit who walk by sight. Today, as it was in Jesus' day, people followed Christ to see what miracle He might do next, or to get some healing for themselves. They were amazed by His true healings and miracles -- but only those who were born from above believed, the rest left Him when He preached the gospel. The Gospel Truth found no home in their wicked thrill-seeking hearts, For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Mat 6:21).

Joh 6:63
--  It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words which I speak to you are spirit and are life.


Joh 6:65-66

65 --  And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father.
66 -- From this time many of His disciples went away into the things behind, and no longer walked with Him.


People who believe in Jesus because of miracles are not rooted in Christ - they believe in the thrill of the moment, in being caught up in the frenzy, but when Jesus spoke the true gospel His followers all left Him - except those that were given to Him by His Father. These abided in the Vine and the Vine abided in them. They had an abiding faith that came from God - not by sight.

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the essence of things being hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen.


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After all, people are a lot smarter these days than they were in Christ's day. They need to see these miracles to strengthen their faith.


You say faith cometh by miracles. God says, "So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom 10:17).

Which should we believe, you or God? For me and my house - we'll obey God.


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You preach the spirit of doubt, not of strengthening faith.

False miracles to strengthed your false faith, not much value in that.

I do not doubt God or His Word. I do doubt the claims of faith-healing hucksters because of what they do and what they believe - neither of which is in accord with the Word of God.


john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2008, 08:46:07 AM »
An Arminian false salvation combined with emotional vanity and lying wonders is a sure recipe to grow a church, but it will be a false gospel church, a church in which Satan rules, not God. If these practitioners knew themselves to be deceived, they would not be deceived. But because they preach lies, they remain deceived.

Joh 9:41
41 --  Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see; therefore, your sin remains.


Mr. John,
 So by that logic, you saying you're blind means you are saved? Pentecostals are not deceived, we know miracles when we see them. Didn't they deny miracles in the time of christ. Some people are blind.


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You say miracles are needed so people will believe. God says otherwise!

You also ignore the scriptures. You didn't explain this.

And God was a witness with them, by signs and wonders, and by more than natural powers, and by his distribution of the Holy Spirit at his pleasure.

Don't you understand either? Some people need miracles to believe, and that is why God gives his servants this power to do these miracles.


Quote
In fact, the kind of 'believing' you are speaking of is the wild-eyed emotional hysteria that has nothing to do with true Christianity.

That's easy for you to say. Was it wild-eyed emotional hysteria when Jesus fed the thousands with a few fish? You don't know what you are talking about.


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The reason Jesus cast out demons and healed all the sick that came to Him was to demonstrate that if He could heal physical ailments then His claim that He was the Savior who has come into the world to heal SPIRITUALLY would be understood as a valid claim.

 You mean Jesus didn't really heal them out of love to make them well, but just to use them? You are wrong! Jesus loved them and that is why he took away their sickness. That is why he has his people cast out demons and heal the sick. That's why god speaks to christians in tongues, because it brings them closer to the spirit. He gets personal. Healing is a personal experience.


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Specifically, you and those like you must believe it, for to doubt would cause you to lose your special blessing, or whatever 'hook' the Pentecostal preacher uses to make you fear rational thought.

Those like me? Those like Erik's friend? Those like the millions of Pentecostals who worship god? You are a very bitter man.


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Which should we believe, you or God? For me and my house - we'll obey God.

Believe god.

Revelation 11:3
 And I will give orders to my two witnesses, and they will be prophets for a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed with haircloth.
These are the two olive-trees and the two lights, which are before the Lord of the earth.
And if any man would do them damage, fire comes out of their mouth and puts an end to those who are working against them: and if any man has a desire to do them damage, in this way will he be put to death.
These have the power to keep the heaven shut, so that there may be no rain in the days when they are prophets: and they have power over the waters to make them into blood, and to send every sort of disease on the earth as their pleasure is.

 Believe god. He gives his prophets the power of miracles.

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2008, 08:48:40 AM »
Quote
Pentecostalism preaches love, not that God will beat you if you are bad. I've never been beaten.

I know you think God is a loving God but did you ever stop to count the many times in the bible where it clearly shows He hates? 


Hates who? The sinner or the sin? According to the apologetics of this site, does he hate me? Does he hate erik's friend? Does he hate all Pentecostals? Answer!!!


 


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