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Author Topic: The Apologetics of This Website  (Read 14342 times)

Apostolic

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The Apologetics of This Website
« on: February 18, 2007, 08:20:28 AM »
Tony Warren and Friends,
  You are a fire and brimstone preacher like in the old days, but does that type of preaching pull any of the young people into the Church today? No. I think that is antiquated and drives more people away than it would draw. No one wants to hear about false prophets, hell and damnation. So why don't you preach of the love of god and the blessedness of being under grace.

 John 3:16
  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

You've got to be stupid if you think that you can save people by speaking in terms that will terrify them. Yes, it's true that in days of old ministers of the gospel were not worthy of their calling if they could not evoke vivid images of condemnation, plagues, earthquakes and hell fire. But this is another age. Young people are wiser at a much earlier age now, and they are not listening to that stuff anymore. That's why in recent times fire and brimstone preaching has declined in popularity. Because good Christian Churches prefer to present a more positive message of fellowship, love and kindness. This, "God is angry and will judge you if you are not chosen" type of preaching is the worst method of advertising Christianity I've ever seen. A true God reveals His love to the whole world, not the back of his hand to good people. Moreover, the articles that are on this website have too much of the word of god in them that is beating people over the head. You should take some of that out and let people have their self respect and dignity. You don't have to give anything up to be a christian, because it's by grace. And to all who will come to him.

1 Timotthy 2:4
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".
 
All men, not some. So I exhort you, reach out to people in love, not judgment. Tell them of the real God that loves them all and that is not waiting to cast them into hell. He's waiting to welcome them no matter what sins they may have. No one's perfect, even the prostitutes Christ associated with. All this judging is not christian at all, it is just the opposite. If I were a young person, I would flee your site, because nothing here exhorts love, it's all be good, stop sinning, people are chosen beforehand, hell awaits, etc., etc. This is not love.


DIpraise100

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 10:44:32 AM »
Tony,
  I think what Apostolic is saying, is that we should withhold the Truth.  My parents would woop me (yes spank) for withholding the truth.  But then again they saw it as lying.  :-[
Dianna

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 01:48:44 PM »
You've got to be joking. This is one of the best and most honest sites on the web. And "particularly" because they are not afraid to make the difficult judgments, and to not be politically correct, and to say when something is not true instead of claiming we all have good points. Yes, the preaching of hell for sinners is what the churches neglect, and you think that is a good thing? You want Tony and friends to take away part of scripture just so a bunch of young punks can feel good and welcomed about joining christians? Well I hope that never happens. You should have read the opening page. It says "Biblical Christianity", not just Christianity. That's where you've made your mistake. There are different kinds of Christianity.

Here in China, there is generally a christianity that is for the most part void of any biblical teaching, and I can see first hand just how far the churches have dropped from being faithful. It's good to have this oasis, and I recommend it to as many people as I can. It is a great value for distinguishing the true church from her imposters. Like those who would only preach as you suggest. As Dianna says, you want Tony to withhold the truth? Man are you in the wrong place!

Pamela

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 02:00:23 PM »
I'm afraid that this is what the churches today are wanting.  They don't want truth.

2 Timothy 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2 Timothy 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths.

They don't want the God of the bible.  They want a god that loves everyone, saves everyone, never sends anyone to hell, ect....  Is this the God we serve?

Apostolic, there are PLENTY of other sites that will fufill your critique, but this one won't!  Thank God!


Fear_God

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 05:48:55 PM »
Greetings!

Apostolic wrote:You are a fire and brimstone preacher like in the old days, but does that type of preaching pull any of the young people into the Church today? No. I think that is antiquated and drives more people away than it would draw. No one wants to hear about false prophets, hell and damnation. So why don't you preach of the love of god and the blessedness of being under grace.

That type of preaching ("Hell fire preaching", is not merely preaching about hell, but about repentance also) will pull in genuinely broken people that God has been dealing with, whereas the type of preaching that is employed by most churches today will bring in people into the church building, but it shall never work in a heart to repent of his sin, and if there is no repentance in a person than all you have is a church full of hell bound sinners that are feeling good about themselves.
 
I would agree. Nobody wants to hear about hell, damnation, false prophets etc. but why is that? Man's heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things (Jer 17:9), so of course it is not want to hear about where he will spend for all of eternity if he does not forsake the thing he love; namely his sin.

John 3:16 is a good verse! But perhaps we should look at the verses that go after it:

16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (emphasis added)


So, if we are to look at the next few verses of that chapter we find that man will not come to the light lest his deeds should be reproved, and also that they who believe not in Jesus Christ are condemned already. We ought not just pick verses out of their context to try to prove that God is just a big teddy bear in heaven who just wants to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Apostolic wrote:Young people are wiser at a much earlier age now, and they are not listening to that stuff anymore. That's why in recent times fire and brimstone preaching has declined in popularity. Because good Christian Churches prefer to present a more positive message of fellowship, love and kindness. This, "God is angry and will judge you if you are not chosen" type of preaching is the worst method of advertising Christianity I've ever seen.


Perhaps so. Though we are not commanded to make God's message nicer than He actually is. The verse "God is angry with the wicked every day" is still a valid verse for today. We do not outgrow God's Word. By the way, young people are not "wiser" today. The case could be made that they are more depraved, but not wiser. Visiting a college campus for and evening would verifiy this.

You wrote also:A true God reveals His love to the whole world, not the back of his hand to good people.


This is a major presupposition on your part. The Scriptures declare in Romans 3:10-18: 10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17  And the way of peace have they not known:
18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.

(Emphasis mine)

Again, if you were to ask the average person why he does "good things", they would probably answer something like this: "I help my friends because...because...I like the way it makes me feel". Note: I have had a few people say it just that way. If our supposed righteousness is counted as filthy rags (Isa 64:6), how much more the sin?

You wrote:Moreover, the articles that are on this website have too much of the word of god in them that is beating people over the head. You should take some of that out and let people have their self respect and dignity.

That is just what God would strip them of; there pride, self respect and dignity. A man will not repent (perhaps you have not repented? Why do you strive against the Word of God?) unless all that is gone. If a man has repented he will have a sense of guilt over their sin (they will probably feel like the dirtiest piece of flesh on face the earth). 2Co 7:10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

Apostolic wrote:I exhort you, reach out to people in love, not judgment. Tell them of the real God that loves them all and that is not waiting to cast them into hell. He's waiting to welcome them no matter what sins they may have.

I think we need to define what love is. Is it love to not tell a man that he is GOING TO BURN IN HELL? I differ on what it means. If you truly have a burden for the lost and a love for souls then you will tell them THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL for the contrary shows apathy and a reproach to the Scripture. Waiting to cast them in hell? Perhaps not. Ready? 1Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. It appears so. (the caps we not that of getting emotional (good thing too), just getting my point across).

Don't worry Apostolic, if I were a unsaved youth, I would probably flee the site also.

Well, thats it for now.

In Christ.




Eccl 12:13-14:

13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

midas

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 07:55:06 PM »
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No one wants to hear about false prophets, hell and damnation

That's for God to decide, not you or anyone else - The whole bible is the word of God - God speaking to us - God doesn't care who wants to hear what - If God didn't want us to hear about it, he would not have put in the bible, hell, damnation, etc in his word


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You've got to be stupid if

I hardly believe God sent you here to deliver some sort of message using these words - Just as fire, hell, damnation won't get people into the Church as you say - telling  people they are stupid won't get them to change their minds - 

Matthew 7:5  You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of your brother's eye.
Christ directs us to the proper way of forming an opinion of others


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You've got to be stupid if you think that you can save people by speaking in terms that will terrify them

Who can save?  God Only

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1 Timotthy 2:4"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth". All men, not some

"All Men" Who is all men - everyone in the world - Everyone who can choose Christ? or everyone (all) who God chose to save from before the foundation of the world? - You just can't pick one verse out of the bible and say it's true unless it lines up with the whole bible - God wrote the bible so we have to read it carefully and fully - Not just find one verse and say, looky here ... You have to read the bible carefully to determine what God means by "all"

Ephesians 1:4  According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...  
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day

All = meaning the Elect - All Who God chose

You see, just because you don't like or agree with the way God decided to save people, you can't come up with a way you like and find a few verses and say see, this is the way it is - God is all love and will save everyone - Just believe and you will be safe - Now I would like it to be this way, and I',m sure most people would like it to be this way too - however this is not the way God wants it and this is not the way the bible teaches us if you read the bible carefully and compare scripture with scripture -

Romans 9:15  For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

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would flee your site, because nothing here exhorts love, it's all be good, stop sinning, people are chosen beforehand, hell awaits, etc., etc. This is not love.

God's word is not all about love as "you" say - Do we follow you or God - Both love and fear should be taught - not just one sided

Luke 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Christ gives this direction. Therefore the fearing of God as having power to cast into hell, is to be pressed even on true believers.

Now, should I follow Apostolic and only teach the love of God - or should I obey God and teach hell, damnation, etc along with the love of God

Apostolic - maybe the reason why you see more fear, hell, damnation on this forum is because a lot of the topics and people's interest is the end of times - the end of the world - and the end of the world, the last day, is not pretty - it is scary - It's about God judging people, the church and Satan  - It will be sad because only a few were chosen ...




Apostolic

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2007, 10:08:01 AM »
Where is the christian love here? Preaching hell is not love. And I'm not asking him to withhold truth, just to proportion it out wisely. You don't have to say sinners are going to be sent to hell if they don't repent. That's just ignorant and lacking in common kindness. What's wrong with just saying to everyone, "Come to Jesus and you won't have to worry anymore, you will be welcomed into heaven in love?" That's just as effective, without mentioning hell fire that will drive young people away.


Apostolic

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2007, 10:13:05 AM »
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That type of preaching ("Hell fire preaching", is not merely preaching about hell, but about repentance also) will pull in genuinely broken people that God has been dealing with, whereas the type of preaching that is employed by most churches today will bring in people into the church building,

Oh, so your intent is to break people rather than encourage them? That's not your job. Your job is to preach the gospel of love. Not of fear. And you have to first get people into the church building before you can teach them of God's love. If you want to beat people up, try the sport of boxing, not christianity.

Fear_God

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2007, 01:07:39 PM »
Apostolic wrote:Oh, so your intent is to break people rather than encourage them? That's not your job. Your job is to preach the gospel of love. Not of fear. And you have to first get people into the church building before you can teach them of God's love. If you want to beat people up, try the sport of boxing, not christianity.

Indeed no. Only God can break a persons heart in reference to salvation. (Reading John Bunyan's "Acceptable Sacrifice"  which is an exposition on Psalm 51 would do a lot to show you how God is the one that breaks the human heart).

What I said was that the "hell-fire preaching" would draw those that are already broken by God, and when I say that I mean that God is working in their heart to salvation, and when God brakes a heart they will be saved.

I would encourage them if they are genuinely broken and are thirsting for Christ's salvation. Read my whole reply to your post. Yours is based upon emotionalism and humanism, whereas those that have replied to yours has been  based upon the Scriptures.

Who has a better model of salvation Apostolic, you, or God? God forbid that any should exalt their ideas of salvation above God's.

Apostolic, you are approaching God's Word with the mindset of a humanist. Reconsider your posts.

In Christ.
Eccl 12:13-14:

13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 11:21:24 AM »
>>>
Tony Warren and Friends,
  You are a fire and brimstone preacher like in the old days, but does that type of preaching pull any of the young people into the Church today? No. I think that is antiquated and drives more people away than it would draw.
<<<

First, the articles here (or anywhere) are not the pulling or drawing force of the gospel, the Holy Spirit of God is. So you need not worry about an article's apparent lack of influence or drawing power. No man is going to come to the God of heaven because of the monologues, stylistic writings, or scholastic documents in any man-authored article or blog. Because belief was never designed to work that way. People come to truth for one reason only. ..they are drawn to it by the Spirit of God.

John 6:44
  • "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Or to put it another way, one could write the most scholastic, entertaining, riveting, amiable article known to man, and it wouldn't draw one single soul to Christ. That power is reserved for God alone. Indeed, likewise, God could use the incoherent witness of a mentally deficient child to draw to people to Himself, or the doctrinal essays of an Harvard graduate. Why? Because it's not in the linguistics or methodology of the message of men whereby they are caused to move, but in the Holy Spirit of God to move them.

Hebrews 13:21
  • "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

It is "God in us" that moves us to do His will, not the tantalizing words that men place in an article.

Second, the doctrines taught here are only antiquated because modernist Ministers and Pastors have made the "whole council of God" that is preached here seem obsolete. They have done that by preaching a new age, worldly, social form of narcissistic religion, where the object is to relate to men, redefine Christian liberty, neglect responsibility, make judgment seem evil, have everyone feel good whereby they love themselves. It's an example of the new PC Christianity. You probably won't even hear many Christians say homosexuality is wrong anymore, because that's not considered Christian or loving. This is perceived as normal Christianity today, when in fact it is a perversion of true love and Christianity. I won't stoop to that level, nor neglect the "whole" counsel of God for the sake of new modern liberal philosophies.


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>>>
No one wants to hear about false prophets, hell and damnation.
<<<

No kidding! ...verily verily, in that you have spoken the truth! And the Ministers of most churches today have also picked up on that, and have decided that in order to (as you say) draw in people, they will be politically correct and tell their parishioners "What they Want to hear!" It's the error of God's people that is as old as the hills upon which it is preached. And like the generation of evil from which it sprang, we can expect it to continue until Christ returns.

Isaiah 30:8-13
  • "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
  • That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
  • Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
  • Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant."

We've read the same things in this forum, where professed children of God practice deceit and absolutely don't want to hear the truth that is witnessed to them. They move heaven and hell to hide their deceit and hold on to their ignoble prophesies and doctrines. That say to the seers, see not, and who (for all intents and purposes) say to God's servants, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits." ..and why? Because they don't like to hear the truth, because it's as a sword that cuts. They don't like what God's word "ACTUALLY" says, and so unlike the Bereans of old (Acts 17:11), they deceitfully, dishonestly, twist the scriptures until (they believe) it says what they want to hear. It's not a new tactic, it's the same old thing as was witnessed in Isaiah chapter 30. And will require the very same judgment from God. Selah!


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>>>
 So why don't you preach of the love of god and the blessedness of being under grace.

John 3:16
  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
<<<

I do preach the love of God and the blessedness of being under grace. I also preach of the mercy of God in saving us--which begs the question, "saved from what?" ...Aha! Saved from hell, punishment of the lake of fire. You see, I preach the "whole" counsel of God, not just the bits and pieces people will accept. Do you really mean, "why don't I preach your version" of the love of God? Because there are two definitions of love. 

#1. God's definition, where it is demonstrated in our correction and repentance. And...
#2., The world's definition, where it says correction is judgmental, hateful, anti-love and criminal.

So isn't the real question, "who is Correct in their understanding of love?" Our judgment depends upon us knowing which is true. e.g., God saying spanking a child can show love, or man saying spanking a child shows anger and hate? That's the narrative. That's the choice we have. Man or God.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Scripture has to be taken in context of the "whole" bible, not read as if it were an island unto itself. You quote John 3:16, which has become the distinguishing characteristic for everyone preaching this humanistic vision of love. But scripture, taken out of context, is pretext! There is no question that God so loved the world that He gave His son for its sins. The question is, what world?

John 17:9
  • "I pray for them: I pray NOT for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

What world did God so love? Does He love everyone in the world, or does He love everyone in the world He chooses and gives to Christ. Did Christ die to take away the sins of everyone in the world (Futility), or everyone in the world that were chosen before of God unto salvation? What "all" was it? All people, or All His people?

Matthew 1:21
  • "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His People from their sins."

Yes, God will save all people without distinction, but CLEARLY it will be All "His People" in the world, not all people in the world "without exception." Does scripture really tell us that God loves everyone in the world, or when harmonized, does it really declare that He loves everyone in the world for whom He has drawn to love Him? Consider wisely.

1st John 4:19
  • "We love him, Because he first loved us."

Why do we love Him? Unambiguously, it is because He "FIRST" loved us. Doesn't that "then" say that everyone who doesn't love Him, were NOT loved by Him first?   Selah!

So then, all the power is in God's hands, isn't it? And just as clearly, He doesn't love everyone in the whole world.

Psalms 11:5
  • "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul ]Hateth."

Six things doth the LORD Hate, and one of them is those who are false witnesses (Proverbs 6). How then does He love everyone in the world?

Romans 9:13
  • "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

So then, with God being true and man being the one who continually gets things wrong, we know God does not love everyone in the whole world, nor did He die to pay for all their sins. If He did, the whole world would have no sins. Again, it's a matter of considering the "whole" counsel of God rather than bits out of context.
 
 
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>>>
You've got to be stupid if you think that you can save people by speaking in terms that will terrify them.
<<<

I'd be stupid to think I can save anyone. However, Christ indeed came for the stupid, the foolish, and he chooses them to confound those who are wise in their worldly ways. Those ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of truth. No, life "ain't" really like a box of chocolates, but stupid is as stupid does.

1st Corinthians 1:26-27
  • "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
  • But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

A prophet can only prophesy what He is told, a servant can only serve his master, a witness can but witness to the testimony that he has been given. That's the true wisdom of Christianity, not stupidity. We neither add nor take away from the witness, and whosoever doesn't like what they hear, God will deal with them in His righteous way. Our job is to watch, warn and testify, not save.

Ezekiel 3:17-21
  • "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
  • When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
  • Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
  • Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
  • Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

i.e., yes I would be stupid if I thought that I could save people by speaking in terms that will terrify them. But it is wisdom to know that as a watchmen, our job is to warn of what God has given us to warn against. And God will draw all men whom He has chosen unto salvation. I indeed would be stupid/foolish if I thought "I" could do that.


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Yes, it's true that in days of old ministers of the gospel were not worthy of their calling if they could not evoke vivid images of condemnation, plagues, earthquakes and hell fire. But this is another age.
<<<

And just where did they get these ideas of condemnation, plagues and hell fire? Did they simply come from the imaginations of their own presumably hateful hearts, or were these old Ministers bearing witness "faithfully" to the word of the Living God? Were they truly acting as Watchmen commissioned by God to warn? Would they have been more Godly to only preach smooth/happy/good things for mankind? ...God forbid! (1st Kings 22)


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 Young people are wiser at a much earlier age now, and they are not listening to that stuff anymore.
<<<

I don't believe that. Young people have always been smart (as well as rebellious), which is why they bear responsibility, and that hasn't changed. But that idea of a "new hybrid of young people" today, is again the mantra of secular humanism. It's the faith of the religion of irresponsibility, and the church of social engineering. If you think young people are smarter today, I would advise talking to a few of them for more than 5 minutes. Listen, even a parrot can be taught to speak, but that doesn't make him smart because he knows words. Selah! Man hasn't changed, he's still desperately wicked. God hasn't changed, He's still immutable. But the church has and is changing, a spiritual declension that I fear knows no end--Till He come!


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 That's why in recent times fire and brimstone preaching has declined in popularity.
<<<

...I agree!  It's called Apostasy, or forsaking the truth and departing from the faith.


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Because good Christian Churches prefer to present a more positive message of fellowship, love and kindness.
<<<

Good Christian churches are getting harder and harder to find. And not coincidentally, in conjunction with the decline in popularity of faithful Biblical preaching, or what you call fire and brimstone fundamentalist "back to the Bible" stuff. Yes. The New age religion of Oprah Winfrey revealed in this positive self image, humanistic love and kindness/charity, as defined by Webster’s dictionary, is increasing. With it, the Love of God has grown cold. I don't argue with you there. Man indeed has exalted himself into the seat of God to rule in the church in place of God. Of that I have no doubt.


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This, "God is angry and will judge you if you are not chosen" type of preaching is the worst method of advertising Christianity I've ever seen.
<<<

Christianity is not a commercial product we're hawking in the marketplace that relies on man-made advertising. No, it is a spiritual movement, and its energy emanates from above, not from the offices of humanistic reasoning. 

Zepaniah 2:3
  • "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

What kind of Christians would we be if we neglected or withheld so important a message as the Lord's judgment and anger, in witnessing to His love?


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A true God reveals His love to the whole world, not the back of his hand to good people.
<<<

..A true God? ..Good people?

Jeremiah 21:5-6
  • "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath.
  • And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall die of a great pestilence."

Romans 3:10-12
  • "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
  • There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
  • They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

It seems that "IF" the true God is the God of the Bible and not a god of your own making or from the imaginations of your own heart, that He is a God of smiting with the hand! And what Good people are they which you speak of? ...Ghandi? Confucius? Muhammad? Plato? Aristotle? Pope John Paul? JFK?

The fact is, good people won't get the back of His hand, because they will be the ones who have been bestowed with the righteousness of Christ, and not their own. Because apart from Christ, none of these people are good.


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Moreover, the articles that are on this website have too much of the word of god in them that is beating people over the head.
<<<

..hmmmmmmm. Too much of the word of God that beats people over the head?

Jeremiah 23:29-31
  • "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
  • Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
  • Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."

Yes, it is a hammer that beats over the head those that take their own mouths to speak and "CLAIM" that it is the Lord speaking. People who wouldn't know Biblical love if it jumped up and kissed them.  The articles on this website will not change for one simple reason. The word of God doesn't change just because the social and cultural climate of the world changes. God's word is always going to be, "if thou shalt not...," and "...I will smite thee," and "you shall be cast into the lake of fire who...," etc., etc. We cannot remove anything from God's word nor add anything to God's word, lest we be subject to the Plagues written therein. OOPS, I forgot, Plagues is another one of your taboo words--but Not God's.

Revelation 22:18-19
  • "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
  • And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

I know you want us to neglect preaching these words, but we are servants of God, not servants of men. God pleasers, not men pleasers.

Is it really that the articles that are on this website have too much of the word of God in them that is beating people over the head, or is it that you want to actually eliminate a portion of God's word? Is there too much wielding of the sword that pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart?


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You should take some of that out and let people have their self respect and dignity. You don't have to give anything up to be a Christian, because it's by grace.
<<<

You mean like an "Easy Believism" kind of gospel where all you have to do is mouth the sinners prayer, or walk up to an altar call, and WALA! You're saved? I'm afraid you have it all wrong. Salvation is indeed by Grace (unmerited favor) of God, but Grace is not a license to sin, a permit to ignore God's word, or a passcode to neglect responsibility. To whom much is given, much is required.

As for self respect and dignity, today these are euphemisms for pride and privilege. You say we don't have to give anything up to be a Christian, while I say we have to give up everything to be a Christian (Luke 18:22). That illustrates the difference in our Christian philosophies and our hermeneutic. We are not freemen in that sense, we are servants/slaves/bondsmen of God.

1st Corinthians 7:22-24
  • "For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
  • Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
  • Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God."

And indeed I would rather give everything up and be the Lord's bondsman, than to keep it all and be the world's freeman. Stupid? Hey, I've been called worse. But they're just words. I know the world's stupid man is God's wise man, so perhaps it's a compliment ;)


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And to all who will come to him.

1 Timothy 2:4
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

All men, not some.
<<<

I agree. Because I never deny God's word. Instead, I compare God's word with God's word, gleaning "from it" the truth of the matter. I.e., it's not a question of if God will have all men to be saved (an absolute truth), it's a question of "all of what Men?" In scripture, as anyone who has studied it for any length of time knows, the "ALL" is qualified by God. Read the "whole" context.

1st Timothy 2:5
  • "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
1st Timothy 2:6
  • "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

As is the theme all throughout the New Testament, this verse is illustrating that there is only one name whereby Men may be saved. In other words, the all are all men without distinction, not all men without exception. ALL men who are His Election, obviously not all men in the world. In due time this mystery which was kept secret, was revealed. Salvation is going to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. All men will (without distinction) will be saved just as Israel, by this One Savior. No other name whereby they can be saved except Christ, the TRUE Israel of God. Obviously He did not give Himself a random for all without exception, else all without exception would have been redeemed by that ransom. That's the nonsense of universalism, not a rational reading of the Bible as authoritative.


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So I exhort you, reach out to people in love, not judgment. Tell them of the real God that loves them all and that is not waiting to cast them into hell.
<<<

I always reach out to people in love. The problem is not a lack of love on my part, but a lack of the Spirit which would have them recognize REAL love. Consider "exactly" what this passage is saying about love, and those who recognize it. And if you are noble, you will also consider what God (not Tony, or the Mountain Retreat) says about judgment. You don't want to hear the witness, but maybe you will hear the Witness:

2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12
  • "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Note that this is God talking, not Tony, not the peanut gallery, not the 700 club, not the mutual love fest church, but God. And He is talking about love being illustrated by receiving His word, rather than refusing to receive it. And this God (of the Bible) is talking about "HIS JUDGMENT" upon those who refuse to receive this truth in "this" love. Let God be true, and every man a Liar!

...everything you've been talking about wrapped in a nice neat package there. Not Tony, but God talking about receiving His word, and about how love is involved and about damnation to those who will not receive it. ..Oops, there goes God using another of those bug-a-boo taboo words you hate so much. So there it is. You can hear it, receive it, or you can ignore it and deny it, according to if it is the will of God.

 
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He's waiting to welcome them no matter what sins they may have. No one's perfect, even the prostitutes Christ associated with.
<<<

Yes, He did. But not while they were Prostituting, Stealing or Robbing. And He told them to go and sin no more. He didn't say they could continue on as Prostitutes, do whatever you want because it's all under grace so you won't be judged. That is man's rationalizing and redefining of Grace, not God's.

Romans 6:1-2
  • "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
  • God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Those who continue on in their sin thinking grace will cover it because they "say" they are Christian, are not considering God's word very carefully.


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All this judging is not Christian at all, it is just the opposite.
<<<

All what judging? ..Oh, you mean the witness of scripture? The witness to the testimony of Christ? No, that's where you are wrong. It is Christian, it is required and it is loving! Agape, charitable benevolent love, not humanistic social love.

It's funny, all the new people who come to this forum "WHINE" incessantly about love and niceties and what-not, but what is usually at the root of their whining is the fact that they don't like the "truth" that is being spoken to them, and they have no "Biblical" answers to address it. So, their feelings being hurt, they strike out with this "no love" mantra. It doesn't work. It has never worked. The question is, if it is God that says these things, do are we just making these testimonies up as we go along?


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If I were a young person, I would flee your site, because nothing here exhorts love,
<<<

I would agree with one thing. This site/forum is not for everyone. In that you have spoken truly. This site/forum is for the open minded, more noble people who seek the truth, not who seek justification of their errors. It's for people who are broken before God's word, not who pridefully stand against it or wrest and twist it.

True love is in exhorting the Christians examine themselves and test/prove themselves (2nd Corinthians 13:5), and not to "turn back" as the children of Israel did, wherein they died in the wilderness. This is "real" Love and real concern (agape). Not the emotionalism that passes for love in this world.

Jude 1:3-5
  • "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
  • For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Yes, in our churches there are certain men/women who have crept in unawares and are practicing deceit by the redefining of Godly agape love, making it worldly niceties. This will never do! At least not on this website. Godly Love rules here.


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 it's all "be good,"
<<<

Be good is a bad exhortation?  You mean we shouldn't exhort Christians to be good?

1st Peter 3:10-12
  • "For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
  • Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
  • For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."


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 stop sinning,
<<<

 You mean we shouldn't exhort Christians to stop sinning?
 
1st John 2:1
  • "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

Like the Apostle, these things I will write that Christians "sin not." Man's ideas notwithstanding.


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people are chosen beforehand,
<<<

 You mean we shouldn't exhort Christians to believe God when He says they are chosen beforehand?

Ephesians 1:4
  • "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"


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 hell awaits, etc., etc.
<<<

 You mean we shouldn't exhort Christians to make their calling and election sure and remain faithful, or Hell awaits?

Matthew 5:22
  • "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

You think we should edit God's addresses?


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 This is not love.
<<<

 Your humanistic form of love would have us tear half the pages out of the Bible. Perhaps you would have us burn them as firewood to keep the poor people in the North Lands cozy. No, "THAT" is not love, it's humanistic worldly socialism, not Christianity. Trust me, there is infinitely more value in reading those words which you hate so, than in burning them for earthly warmth in some misguided idea of "love, kindness and being nice to good people."


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

crossnote

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2007, 01:32:09 AM »
I wonder where Noah a preacher of righteousness went wrong? Nearly 100 years of preaching and only 7 'converts'? Perhaps he lacked a smile.
Then there was Elisha (2Ki 2:23-24) who had no trinkets to offer the kids. Meany meany meany.
 And who can forget that unloving baptizer, yelling names like 'Ye brood of vipers, who warned ye to flee the wrath to come'?
And of course our Lord who couldn't have cared less about his congregation showing the last hold-outs the door, even mentioning one of them to be partners with satan.(Jn 6:66-70).
  Such an unloving bunch, perhaps they haven't eeeevolved to the politically correct level of us compassionate sophisticates.
-richard

christanbuc32

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2007, 12:04:28 PM »
You don't have to give anything up to be a christian, because it's by grace. And to all who will come to him.


 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Apostolic

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 05:53:40 PM »
You don't have to give anything up to be a christian, because it's by grace. And to all who will come to him.[/quote.]

You don't have to give anything up to be a christian, because it's by grace. And to all who will come to him. I don't have to fit into your pigeon hole.
 

rebekahsmom

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 02:11:32 PM »
You don't have to give anything up to be a christian, because it's by grace. And to all who will come to him.[/quote.]





Lamentations 3:40
Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Amos 5:24
"But let judgement rain down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

rebekahsmom

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Re: The Apologetics of This Website
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 02:14:12 PM »
Salvation DOES NOT give you a permission slip to sin.
 Matt 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.




Lamentations 3:40
Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Amos 5:24
"But let judgement rain down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

 


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