[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Is Homosexual Marriage Next  (Read 11505 times)

Deuce Johnson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2003, 09:46:49 AM »
Other things are abominations in the Bible.  Just because it's an abomination, it doesn't mean it should be a crime.

[spoeall check off]
jd@,
That doesn't make sense either. Abomination by God's definition is criminal or illegal. It's against God's law. So do we say so what, or do we say homosexuality is a crime? I guess it all depends on if we are really Christian.

It has been a crime for hundreds of years because the Church did it's job and society took it's cue. As Christians, the only thing we can justly say is that we won't have any part in decriminalizing homosexuality. So you can justify it by being silent about this crime all you want, but this is not what we should do as Christians. We are either for Christ or against him. There is no standing on the sidelines or standing on the fense.


Deuce Johnson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2003, 10:00:08 AM »
First, Christians do not force anyone to live by Biblical standards. Where did you get that presupposition? We live in a republic. The only power that Christians have is one vote a piece. How then are we forcing anyone to do anything. We spread the gospel, and if anyone doesn't want to hear it, they don't have to listen to it. it's a relatively free country.

Matthew 7:6

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Thank you Tony. You are the voice of integrity, courage, and reason around here. Funny how we both come to the passages God uses about the "foolishness" of man wise in his own conceits, clean in his own eyes. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard these lame excuses. Man trying to out-smart God in his own thinking.

 I love how Christians are forcing people when they preach against laws promoting homosexuality, but when people preach against laws promoting morality, they're not forcing. They are exercising their freedom of speech. There is a double standard in the foolishness of some Christians.

How is speaking out against legalizing homosexual activity forcing anyone? It's Crazy! You're right. Today's modern PC christian makes no sense at all.

jd@

  • Guest
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2003, 11:28:35 PM »
Quote
That doesn't make sense either. Abomination by God's definition is criminal or illegal. It's against God's law.

No, that's not what crime means.  There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it.  For example, pride is an abomination, but (not surprisingly!) the bible does not ask governments to outlaw it.  I do believe, though, that homosexuality is not in that category.

Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern.  I fear that you have pigeon-holed me in your mind, and are interpreting all my statements in the light of that.  I have been asking questions in order to challenge your thinking, and you have automatically assumed that I am liberal/PC/pro-gay/whatever.  

As it turns out, I'm an Australian.  And over here, we look at some things differently.  It has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical, we simply have a different cultural climate.  Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here.  We all have our own blind spots, of course, but I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.  Some of you have not been able to handle a guy like me coming in who shares your theological beliefs, but has a different way of looking at things.  

Don't worry too much, though.  I'm not offended.  Actually, it's been rather fun.  "As iron sharpens iron, etc."



Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2003, 03:45:00 PM »
>>>
There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it.
<<<

..your point being that the United States was wrong for ever instituting laws banning Homosexual activity in the first place, because that's not their duty?  :S_Confused: ...and that it is now right that they are changing these laws so that we now permit this immorality? Is that your point? Because if that is "NOT" your point, then it has become painfully clear to me that you have no point as far as I can tell. All I hear you saying is "..that's not what I'm saying," or "..that's not my point." So just once, maybe you can tell us what you "are" saying or what is your point so we won't have to keep guessing. Because you cannot have it both ways. For the law was either wrong in the first place, or it was right. Not BOTH! It cannot be that it was right, but now it's wrong. So please elucidate. What is your point?

The fact is, the United States was completely within its right to institute laws banning the immoral activity of Homosexuality, and Christians were right for supporting the laws. And if that be the case (and it is) then it is wrong to now change the law so that we can allow this abomination. Which is all we were saying in the first place. You may "tap dance" all around this truth if you like, but it is really no different than the United States instituting the very same type moral laws banning sexual relations with children. I don't hear you saying those laws were wrong. There is not one wit of difference between the two laws. They are both laws banning what "we" think is immoral activity. When measured with a just balance, it hould be quite obvious that there is no difference.

Proverb 11:1
  • "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."


Quote
>>>
Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern.  I fear that you have pigeon-holed me in your mind, and are interpreting all my statements in the light of that.
<<<

What about me finding some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Colossians 2:8
  • "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

This Greek word spoil [sulagogeo] means to be led away captive. It's used in the sense of being plundered or taken in warfare, or seized by conquest. It can only refer to professed Christians being deceived by the humanistic philosophies of the world.  Philosophies that seduce, entice, lead them captive, and ultimately strip them of their faith (the faith of Christ cannot be stripped). We have a choice to make. We can go along with the vain philosophies and rudiments (arrangements or ways) of the world, or we can reject the hubris of modernism and follow after God's laws. But not both!


Quote
>>>
I have been asking questions in order to challenge your thinking, and you have automatically assumed that I am liberal/PC/pro-gay/whatever.
<<<

The mind or thinking of the true Christian cannot be challenged by worldly thoughts about decriminalizing Homosexuality, or with the rudiments of this world. The faithful Christian is challenged with the Spirit that dwells within him, and the witness of the word (as opposed to the witness of the world).

Hebrews 8:10
  • "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

I don't know about Deuce, but I do know that your way of thinking is not novel, and I think I can "justly assume" that it is a product of our time, culture and environment. What little I hear you saying, when compared with the facts of this issue, seems neither logical nor Biblical. And yet somehow you perceive it to be both. You can discern the weather by looking at the sky, but how is it that you cannot discern the righteousness of Christians being against decriminalizing homosexuality, which God calls an abomination?


Quote
>>>
As it turns out, I'm an Australian.  And over here, we look at some things differently.  It has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical, we simply have a different cultural climate. 
<<<

Cultural Climate is a euphemism for "Post Modernism!" Post modern Christianity is a humanistic, fragmented, politically correct, compromising, frivolous, law-changing, corrupt, philosophical,  throw away society. Of course, I do not deny that attitudes have indeed changed with the times or the "cultural climate" (as you call it). I deny that this cannot be the wickedness of post modernism, which is a premise that no definite terms, boundaries, or absolute truths exist. But of course, you can call it whatever you like. I can call a pig a horse, and even put a saddle on him, but he's still wallowing in the mire isn't he? Attitudes indeed change, but God is immutable, and christian morality is immutable. What was immoral ten years ago (to the true Christian) is immoral today. Those who have the mind of Christ do not change morality along with the times of post modern society, nor with time change laws governing it to accommodate new world philosophies creeping into the church. Even when the beast sticks its ugly head in the door, the laws of God and the church remain constant to be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14). ..until that time when God allow the light to be dimmed.

Daniel 7:25
  • "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

That there will be evil change in the world is inevitable. That we, as Christians, should remain silent when this darkness comes, is a time when all faithful should be in mourning. We are set of God as "Watchmen," not spectators. We are evangelists, not idle bystanders. As an Australian you may look at things differently (as you say), but as Christians all across the world we must look at things immutably. i.e., that's why this country had laws banning Homosexual activity in the first place. In those days we "were" a simi-moral country, and now we are slowly sliding down that slippery slope, greased by professing Christians everywhere who are playing political chairs or just sitting on the sidelines telling us (in essence) to just go with the flow. That may be how we will get the accolades from the modern church, but not from God.

You say it has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical. We say it has everything to do with being Biblical or unbiblical. Everything has to do with this declension.  For the Bible, which is the gospel, is the rule of faith in all our lives and the light of the world. For you to chalk your inconsistency up to simply having a "different cultural climate," is naive at best.

..unless you are willing to be just as animated in also allowing our laws against other immorality (such as as child pornography) be overturned as well. Then, and only then, will you be speaking consistently with regard to overturning laws banning immoral activities such as sodomy. My guess is that with regard to decriminalizing immoral sexual activity with children, you wouldn't be saying (and I quote):

 "There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it."

That would be my guess. Why? Because you recognize this sin as an abomination, an immoral activity of which the law against it is just. Cultural climate hasn't brought you far enough to minimize that law. ..yet.

No matter how long I live, there is one truth that always seems to hold consistent. And that is the truth that, "Inconsistency is the hallmark of error." Your inconsistency proves your humanistic philosophy, Biblically untenable, and logically flawed.


Quote
>>>
Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here. 
<<<

Prejudice is a very subjective word. What do you mean by prejudice? That we Christians believe that homosexual activity is unnatural, vile affections and a abomination unto God, and that keeping it unlawful in America is a good and righteous thing? Because that's what we've said. Moreover, it is really the testimony of the Living God, not of ourselves. If that's what you mean, then yes, every single faithful Christian on earth is prejudice. But my educated guess is that you're attempting the type cast. The typical "Politically Correct" end-around where when all else fails. Accuse the Christian of being either hateful, Prejudice, Homophobic, uncompassionate, lacking love, promoting violence, or some other unrighteous label to avoid the truths in this issue. When man has his mind made up, it is self-evident that he doesn't need a real reason for condemnation (Matthew 27:23) he "will" have his way and believe what is right in his own eyes.


Quote
>>>
I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.
<<<

The only test we're concerned with is that when we are tempted (tried, proved or tested) with post modernistic thought in our time of the trial of faith in this world, we will be kept by the power of God. That's the only test we're concerned with. And all pride aside, neither you nor I will have any part in grading those tests. Thank God!

1st Peter 1:5-7
  • "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
  • Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
  • That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

The putting of the faith of the true Christian to the test will only reveal what is its real nature is. That we will persevere in the faithfulness of Christ that we not fall to vain philosophies.


Quote
>>>
Some of you have not been able to handle a guy like me coming in who shares your theological beliefs, but has a different way of looking at things.
<<<

To "handle you" is not my mission. To get the witness of the truth out over the steady stream of humanistic reasonings in the church, is. I can only speak for myself when I say you do not share my theological views. We may hold some of the same beliefs, but so does Roman Catholics hold some views that I do. That doesn't mean that I would then make the general statement that they share my theological views. Theologically, you and I are miles apart on most issues, even though we may both hold to some of the same doctrines like grace. For my theology starts with "give no quarter to sin and abominations, and be a watchman with a strong trumpet."

You are right in what you say about you having a different way of looking at things. On the other hand, I like to look at things straight on, with the same clarity all the time. That is to say, consistently, comparing scripture with scripture, seeing things the way they "really" are. Not looking at things the way they might appear to be "in light" of post modern culture and new age philosophies.


Quote
>>>
Don't worry too much, though.  I'm not offended.  Actually, it's been rather fun.  "As iron sharpens iron, etc."
<<<

Iron sharpens iron, but wood dulls iron. If our assumptions are flawed, our conclusions will be flawed. If our premise is flawed, then our whole thinking based upon that starting premise will be flawed.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"



Deuce Johnson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2003, 03:04:48 AM »
Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern. Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here.

With all due respect, you don't know a thing about me except that I am against a few judges in our country who took it upon themselves to take away longstanding laws which ban homosexuality. You accuse me of assuming, when you yourself assume way too much about me.

For the record, I am not prejudice against homosexuals, as my own nephew who is a homosexual will happily tell you flat out. I dearly love him and I treat him as I do any other human being. So before you start making unfounded charges against me, try and get yourself educated on the facts first. It's clear that you don't know what you are talking about.

Deuce Johnson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2003, 03:10:31 AM »
Quote
And I find some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Run that by me again ;)

 It's amazing, I've been told banning gay marriages might cause gay marriages, I've been called prejudice, I've been castigated for my lack of spelling, told I need to take the mote out of my own eye, and reminded that the abomination of homosexuality is all relative like stores cheating. All in one week. Just because I dared speak up about the judges decision to decriminalize homosexual activity.

It's funny, because this week even the Pope seems to have had enough and has spoken out against this cancer which is in our world. The vatican (who we know has been lenient on homosexuality), announced a world wide campaign against legalizing gay marriages. So even roman catholics understand there is something gone ary, but Protestants are running around arguing about nothing and making excuses.

And for the Australian who thinks America wants this decriminalized and we're "forcing" Christian values on them, if he knew the facts he would have known that 57% of americans are against this ruling. A clear majority in any vote. So again he is misinformed about us forcing anything on people. Besides, it's our democratic right to speak out against sin. Our government allows this, and so does God. So what's his beef! Or as you say, what's his point.


Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2003, 09:03:22 AM »
It doesn't surprise me Deuce. The One Roman Catholic Church has always been at the forefront of doing the right thing. Who is at the forefront of being against Abortions? The One Holy Roman Catholic Church. Who is at the forefront of feeding the poor? The One Holy Roman Catholic Church. Same thing with missions.

So it should surprise no one that the One Holy Roman Cathoklic Church is at the forefront of helping christians understand we cannot allow these new ideas about homosexuals to take root and become law.


Chicago Bear

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
  • Gender: Male
  • A Chicagoan Named Bear
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2003, 08:03:30 PM »

Quote
>>>
I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.
<<<

The only test we're concerned with is that when we are tempted (tried or tested) with post modernistic thought in our trial of faith in this world, we will be kept by the power of God. That's the only test we're concerned with. And all pride aside, you have no part in grading those tests. Thank God!

Thank you Tony Warren. I couldn't agree more. I was reading about this as all these strories broke in the news media and I was thinking of you. Read this article and see if it isn't almost identical to what you are saying. I'll gladly be called a hate monger if that means I'm standing by the gospel truth. I'm sure glad that some people still have some sense left.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040525153848/http://adnetsolfp2.adnetsol.com:80/ssl_claremont/feder2.cfm

The media is part of the problem in my view.
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Drew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2003, 08:23:01 AM »
I don't agree that people who speak out against the laws banning homosexuality are hate mongers. But do we have to speak out against these people and cause them pain and make them feel like outcasts? I don't agree with the australian, and I agree with those of you who are against the new laws  because that is only common sense morality, but let's not preach against homosexuality. Who cares if gays marry. Shouldn't the church be about love and compassion for these people? I think so.

 2 John 1:5
 "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."



Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2003, 04:20:13 PM »
>>>
I don't agree that people who speak out against the laws allowing homosexuality are hate mongers.
<<<

That's a good start, but it doesn't go far enough. Because the "truth" is, we who speak out against the decriminalization of homosexual activity are Christians, the only ones who truly 'care' about homosexuals. Ours is a Christ-like warning that they might ber saved, not condemned.


Quote
>>>
But do we have to speak out against these people and cause them pain and make them feel like outcasts?
<<<

We're not speaking out against people, we're speaking out against sin. Which should be the testimony of every true Christian. Better that we speak out against "homosexuality" and cause them pain that they feel like "outcasts" now, rather than we remain silent and not warn, and they are "castout" and have pain and suffering eternal. Unfortunately, most of the church today would rather be spectators than watchmen unto their good. ...to their own peril.

Ezekiel 33:7-9
  • "So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
  • When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity but his blood will I require at thine hand.
  • Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul."

What shall we say then? Let's be deceitful and not warn those who rebell against God's laws because it's not our business? Or we should stay out of the business of the world and not worry about laws that we, as representative citizens, are responsible for? God Forbid! But this is the slothful and irresponsible attitude of today's post modern Christian. They would rather lie to themselves because they don't want to hear anger that make ripples in their lives. This attitude is nothing new in God's house.

Isaiah 30:9-10
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

Smooth things, or in other words, don't tell us to do things that will aggravate us, just let'sgo along to get along.


Quote
>>>
I don't agree with the australian, and I agree with those of you who are against the new laws because that is only common sense morality,
<<<

We agree that it is just common sense (which it is), but yet you think warning against the abomination of Homosexuality is somehow wrong because it makes homosexuals feel like outcasts? Isn't that a bit inconsistent? Would you not say that preaching against the sin of adultery is a good thing? Wouldn't you say preaching against the sin of stealing is a good thing? Are you then making thieves feel like outcasts, or adulterers? Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Proverbs 11:1
  • "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."

Proverbs 16:11
  • "A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work."

That's like someone claiming abortion is not murder, but then wanting to charge the murderer of a pregnant woman with two counts of murder. inconsistency is the hallmark of error. Nobility is in making just or honest judgments which are consistent and true. As in rightly (justly) dividing (cutting or portioning) the word of truth. When we have inconsistency, we have error. It is a Christian and moral obligation to warn against the acceptance of Homosexuality. God's judgments await, not ours. God's punishments, not ours. That God calls it an abomination, and a unnatural and vile affection is proof enough of the seriousness of our duty. This is a right, the Christian using a just weight and balance.


Quote
>>>
but let's not preach against homosexuality. Who cares if gays marry.
<<<

That's like saying let's not preach against false doctrines, because it might hurt someon's feelings. Or let's not preach against adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder. Why would a "true" Christian say these things? It makes no sense. As I said, it's just as inconsistent as saying don't preach against laws allowing homosexuality, but you can preach against laws permitting child pornography. They are both equally immoral in God's eyes. What man cannot seem to grasp is that, there is no difference! It's both the same warnings against the sexual immorality of the wicked. A law against molesting a child is the same as a law against sodomy. They're laws against immorality.

Who cares if gays marry? You, as a true Christian, should care. For you should desire for them the same as you desire for yourself. Regeneration and salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ unto new life. This is the true meaning in the Christian understanding of gape "LOVE." Christian charity or benevolence toward others.

James 2:8
  • "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"

When you "Love" your neighbor as you love yourself, "YOU CARE!" Because you know the wrath of God abides upon them.

Isn't it ironic that the professed Christians who claim to have love and compassion for homosexuals, are the very ones saying that we should just leave them alone, and not worry about them, and not care that they should be men marrying men, or women marrying women. While those who truly do care (knowing their end), are called hate mongers, homophobists and uncompassionate.


Quote
>>>
Shouldn't the church be about love and compassion for these people? I think so.
<<<

I think so too! But I also think that a great many of you have a different definition than we do of what is love. How do we know what love is?

1st John 5:2-3
  • "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  • For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

It seems many confuse humanistic feelings, worldly reasoning, carnal accommodation, convenience, and misguided sympathy, for love and Godly compassion. Compassion is sacrificing of yourself, willing to suffer rebuke, persecution, tribulation and reviling to "help" others. And love is remaining faithful to the commandments of God and desiring for others what you desire for yourself. Desiring an awakening and salvation, not good vibrations or that people have self esteem (pride) in this world. One means everything in this world, the other means everything in the world to come. This is what true compassion. This is the fast which the Lord has chosen, "to deal thy bread to the poor," to sell all you have that others may be clothed thereby. The Spiritual fast in Christ Jesus.

Luke 18:22-23
  • "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
  • And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.."

That's the church today. Very sorrowful because they love the things of this world. They don't want to give up anything that keeps them comfortable. They want to be Politically Correct so no one will say bad things about them. They want the "smooth way" where they can remain at ease, comfy, complacent and hang onto their carnal lifestyles, while at the same professing Christ is LORD of their lives. But it doesn't work that way. He who will not take up their cross and follow Christ, is not worthy of Christ. Because they don't love Christ as LORD.

Matthew 24:12
  • "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

Christian love growing cold is not Christians saying it is wrong to have laws forbidding Homosexuals to marry, it is professed Christians saying, who cares if homosexuals marry! It is the love of God growing cold, not the love of homosexuals. Iniquity abounding is not Christians saying that Homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven, it is professed christians saying that we should not testify of such statements in the Bible, because it makes them feel like outcasts.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Kyle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2003, 10:16:14 AM »
But how can the Church of England even talk about having a practicing homosexual leader of the Church? Has the Church gone completely insane or is it just me? They should have thrown him out immediately, shouldn't they?

https://web.archive.org/web/20050927163949/http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20030611.shtml

Australia, Canada, England, the United States, is this a trend or what? The Episcopal Church should be ashamed of itself. And so should anyone who doesn't call this an abomination.

jd@

  • Guest
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2003, 01:12:23 AM »
OK, I've had a few days to catch my breath and let my pulse slow down.   ;)

Quote
Elucidate. What is your point?

Thank you!  Boy, I thought you'd never ask!!  ;)

I believe that the Bible is the inerrant and fully authoritative Word of God
I believe that God's law is holy, and binding on all people, as well as families, societies, organisations, churches and governments.
I believe that the moral law is still in force, along with the general principles behind the Old Testament civil laws.
I believe that homosexuality is an abomination and is repulsive to God.
I believe that as Christians we are called to be salt and light, and therefore should do everything within our power to prevent from being passed laws that allow homosexuality.

 ;D

Quote
What about me finding some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Well, naturally I don't agree, but I'm happy to learn.   :)

Quote
You can discern the weather by looking at the sky, but how is it that you cannot discern the righteousness of Christians being against decriminalizing homosexuality?

Of course, that's not the thing to which I was objecting.  I didn't like people jumping to conclusions about my beliefs, assumptions, character, etc.

Quote
Post modern Christianity is a humanistic, fragmented, politically correct, compromising, frivolous, law-changing, corrupted, philosophical, and throw away society.

You're right, of course, but then - I'm not a post-modern.

Quote
As an Australian you may look at things differently (as you say), but as Christians we look at things immutably.

Presumably it is possible to be both a Christian and an Australian...  ;)


Quote
You say it has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical. We say it has everything to do with being Biblical or unbiblical. Everything has to do with this declension.  For the Bible, which is the gospel, is the rule of faith in all our lives and the light of the world. For you to chalk your inconsistency up to simply having a "different cultural climate," is naive at best.

It certainly wasn't your beliefs on homosexuality that have nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical!!  It was the mode of expressing those beliefs, and the associated feelings, attitudes, and communication practices.  These are heavily influenced by our culture.

Quote
..unless you are willing to be just as animated in also allowing our laws against other immorality (such as as child pornography) be overturned as well. Then, and only then, will you be speaking consistently with regard to overturning laws banning immoral activities such as sodomy. My guess is that with regard to decriminalizing immoral sexual activity with children, you wouldn't be saying (and I quote):

 "There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it."

No, but I would with pride, which was my initial example.  ;)

Quote
Your inconsistency proves your humanistic philosophy Biblically untenable, and logically flawed.

Well, inconsistency is always difficult to point out at the best of times.  Go for it!!

Quote
I can only speak for myself when I say you do not share my theological views.

Yeah, OK.  I'm happy to admit that you're right on this one.  I stand corrected.

Quote
Theologically, you and I are miles apart, even though we may both hold to some of the same doctrines.

Yes, sad as that may be, I think you're right.  Who was it who said that England and America are two countries separated by a common language??  It might be the same sort of thing happening here...

Quote
From Deuce:
With all due respect, you don't know a thing about me except that I am against a few judges in our country who took it upon themselves to take away longstanding laws which ban homosexuality. You accuse me of assuming, when you yourself assume way too much about me.

Yeah, fair enough.  Sorry Deuce.  At least now you know how I feel like. :(

Of course, prejudice is very difficult to avoid, especially on a web forum.  You see words on a screen, and immediately start making assumptions about the author...

Quote
From Deuce:
It's amazing, I've been told ... I need to take the mote out of my own eye, and reminded that the abomination of homosexuality is all relative like stores cheating.

Well, not by me!!  I'm truly sorry if you thought that's what I was saying.  And yeah, sorry about the spelling thing.  It does annoy me though - try to check your speeling if yuo kan.  ;)

Quote
That's like saying Let's not preach against Adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder.

But all sins are not equal! ...or are they?

Quote
Australia, Canada, England, the United States, is this a trend or what? The Episcopal Church should be ashamed of itself. And so should anyone who doesn't call this an abomination.

Of course, the Australian Anglicans are the good guys in all this...  :)

OK, that's my shpiel.  Keep on disagreeing...


Bruce

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Gender: Male
  • Faith Overcomes All
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2003, 08:11:57 AM »
Why is this a problem? Why do we magnify homosexuality? Surely it is not the unforgiveable sin. We must respect all people, and that is not mutally exclusive of disrespecting thier actions or decions.

Have you been reading these posts? Why do we magnify child pornography? Because it's an abomination to God which should be stamped out, that's why. Why would you even write a message protesting against that?

Bruce

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Gender: Male
  • Faith Overcomes All
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2003, 08:34:35 AM »
Quote
That's like saying Let's not preach against Adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder.
Quote

But all sins are not equal! ...or are they?


JD Ampersand,
  Who said all sins were equal? We were talking about the decriminalization of homosexuality, and you are talking about everything but. Why is that? Are you argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative? Otherwise, why are you arguing in a thread discussing the decriminalization of homosexuality, while you say you're not arguing the decriminalization of homosexuality? It makes no sense except that you just want stir up something.


jd@

  • Guest
Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2003, 10:14:30 PM »
Quote
Who said all sins were equal?

Nobody.  But if we compare homosexuality to divorce, etc. we are assuming equality in at least some sense.  That argument came up, but in order to examine the validity of the argument, we have have to discuss the equality or inequality of some sins.  But if you'd prefer me not to talk about it I'll just shut up.

Quote
Are you argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative?

Well, I'm sorry it appears that way.  I'll try to be more careful in future...


 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]