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Author Topic: Why I Am Still A Catholic  (Read 19124 times)

mcs7474

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Why I Am Still A Catholic
« on: December 29, 2006, 12:00:20 AM »
There is no other church on earth whose teachings and beliefs can be proven more completely from the Bible than those of the Catholic Church. Every teaching and belief of the Catholic Church is found in the Scriptures...either explicitly or implicitly.

These are the very same teachings that were taught 2000 years ago as
the Early Church Fathers show in their writings. The early church was not Baptist, Luthern, Evangelical, or Non-Denominational...it WAS and IS Catholic!!!

NOTHING in the Bible contradicts the Catholic Church
and nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible...NOTHING!!

Yet, from a Catholic perspective, having to rely on the Scriptures alone to prove the teachings of the Church is illogical and “unbiblical.” This is because we only know of the inspiration of the Scriptures due to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, who determined the canon and divine inspiration of Scripture at the end of the fourth century by the power and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in Scripture itself tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, there is no divinely inspired table of contents or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith.

To the contrary, while every Scripture passage in the Bible is inspired (see, for example, 2 Tim. 3:16 in reference to the Old Testament Scriptures), it is the Church, not the Scriptures, that is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17).

Which Church is the Holy Scriptures speaking of?

Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:20-22), and charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus’ flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and the elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6). It is through the teaching authority and apostolic tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).

Jesus Christ wanted all Christians to KNOW the TRUTH! That's why he established
His Church!

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church!

Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2007, 08:47:33 AM »
 You are telling it right!

 Matthew 16:18
 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

I am still a Catholic because of the beauty of Catholicism, beauty being truth in its most attractive form. It is the beauty of the images and stories of Catholicism which keep me in the Church, not the wisdom or intelligence or the virtue of the Church leadership. Beauty, truth in its most attractive form, is not weaker than prosaic truth but stronger. I am also still a Catholic because of the warmth of the social support which the Catholic community provides, most often though not always through the neighborhood parish...

http://www.agreeley.com/articles/why.html

Chicago Bear

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2007, 09:56:49 AM »
You are telling it right!

I am still a Catholic because of the beauty of Catholicism, beauty being truth in its most attractive form. It is the beauty of the images and stories of Catholicism which keep me in the Church, not the wisdom or intelligence or the virtue of the Church leadership.

I had to laugh when I read this. That is the worst argument for catholicism I have ever heard. Your Church leadership is full of perverts and child molesters so now all of a sudden the catholic Church is not the virtue of the Church leadership? Well Duh !!

 You're still a catholic because it's all you know, it's like a bad habit that you've gotten use to and don't want to give up.

  Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 I think that applies to the catholic Church as well.
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Erik Diamond

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Re: Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2007, 10:41:10 AM »
Quote
I am still a Catholic because of the beauty of Catholicism, beauty being truth in its most attractive form. It is the beauty of the images and stories of Catholicism which keep me in the Church, not the wisdom or intelligence or the virtue of the Church leadership.

Sounds like the beauty of Babylon the Great.  She only looks attractive outwardly, but inside her is full of abominations. Not only the Catholicism, but Protestantism as well.

Rev 18:7  How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Do not be deceived!

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2007, 11:47:55 AM »
>>>
 You're still a catholic because it's all you know, it's like a bad habit that you've gotten use to and don't want to give up.
<<<
That's probably true. Tradition passed down from generation to generation.

Quote
>>>
  Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 I think that applies to the catholic Church as well.
<<<

It applies to any Church. Unfortunately, we have a great many Protestants who do the very same thing, but not so overtly. Almost unnoticable as they lift up their Churches to that lofty level as well, where anything it does is accepted, ignored or excused because, "..it's the Church!"

But what makes a Church of God? Is it just that fact that they take the name Church, or is it more than that? Is the Momon Church, the Church? Is the Watchtower Society the Church? Is the Catholic Church, the Church? Is the Pentecostal/Snake handlers Church, the Church? Jim Jones Church? Too many people (professed Christians) really have no idea what the Church really is. The definition of God's Church is more than the mere word "Church," or verbally confessing Christ. One Church tradition wherein they go forsaking God's word is just as bad as another bad Church tradition. I don't see any difference accept in the terminology.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reformer

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2007, 05:01:25 PM »
Quote
Why I am still a Catholic

well here are only Ten of the Countless Biblical Reasons why I am not a Roman Catholic

1. The Holy Bible is the ultimate authority of the Church, not the Church

2. There is no Biblical support for the doctrine that sacraments are necessary for salvation

3. The doctrine of Purgatory is a fable without any Biblical validation whatsoever.

4. There is no Biblical support for any man being an infallible Teacher

5. There is no Biblical support for the bodily assumption of Mary

6. There is no Biblical support for the perpetual virginity of Mary

7. There is no Biblical support for any doctrine of transubstantiation

8. There is no Biblical support that any Pope is "the Vicar of Christ on earth"

9. There is no Biblical support for Mary being co-mediatrix or co-redemptrix

10. There is no Biblical support that the Church Magisterium position is the authority of the Church


And that's just for starters. Obviously, since there is really no Biblical support for any of these church doctrines, nor doctrines like the Celibacy of Priests, clearly the Roman Catholic Church simply invented these doctrines over the years. Because not one of them is actually in the scriptures.

So you (and even Protestant people like you) who think that Christians can just make up traditions and call them Church doctrine, can say anything that you like.

 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

True Christians try what people like you say, and we reject it. And I don't care how many loving compassionate christians don't like what I have to say. You cann go on year after year declaring the Roman Catholic Church the one true Church, but biblical Christians like myself take these comments as just more hot air that add to global warming.

Carico

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2007, 11:49:22 PM »
There is no other church on earth whose teachings and beliefs can be proven more completely from the Bible than those of the Catholic Church. Every teaching and belief of the Catholic Church is found in the Scriptures...either explicitly or implicitly.

These are the very same teachings that were taught 2000 years ago as
the Early Church Fathers show in their writings. The early church was not Baptist, Luthern, Evangelical, or Non-Denominational...it WAS and IS Catholic!!!

NOTHING in the Bible contradicts the Catholic Church
and nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible...NOTHING!!

Yet, from a Catholic perspective, having to rely on the Scriptures alone to prove the teachings of the Church is illogical and “unbiblical.” This is because we only know of the inspiration of the Scriptures due to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, who determined the canon and divine inspiration of Scripture at the end of the fourth century by the power and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in Scripture itself tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, there is no divinely inspired table of contents or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith.

To the contrary, while every Scripture passage in the Bible is inspired (see, for example, 2 Tim. 3:16 in reference to the Old Testament Scriptures), it is the Church, not the Scriptures, that is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17).

Which Church is the Holy Scriptures speaking of?

Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:20-22), and charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus’ flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and the elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6). It is through the teaching authority and apostolic tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).

Jesus Christ wanted all Christians to KNOW the TRUTH! That's why he established
His Church!

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church!

 :laugh:Let's start with Matthew 1:25, Leviticus 26:1, Matthew 23:5-12, Luke 1:47 and Exodus 20:4 which are only the beginning of passages that catholics don't believe.  >:(

Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2007, 08:25:42 AM »
The doctrine of Purgatory is a fable without any Biblical validation whatsoever.

 
"Purgatory Not in Scripture"



Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

 
Why Go To Purgatory?



Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

 
No Contradiction



The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego,

Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2007, 08:33:30 AM »

 That's probably true. Tradition passed down from generation to generation.


You mean like the Reformed Tradition :)



Quote
It applies to any Church. Unfortunately, we have a great many Protestants who do the very same thing, but not so overtly. Almost unnoticable as they lift up their Churches to that lofty level as well, where anything it does is accepted, ignored or excused because, "..it's the Church!"


I would agree. Accept that it's not the Church. There is only one true holy Church, and I'm sure you will agree with that. That's why we don't have the thousands of different sects that the Protestant have, all preaching something different. One Holy catholic Church agreeing with the magisterium and preaching what the Church teaches, not what each individual teaches.

John

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2007, 07:16:43 PM »
Quote
One Holy catholic Church agreeing with the magisterium and preaching what the Church teaches, not what each individual teaches.

... and not what the Bible teaches.

In some ways I am shocked by the disregard for the very words of God -- many churches, Roman Catholic included, use the Bible -- but only enough to justify some absurd teaching that a child can discern to be in complete opposition to the word of God, yet is accepted as true -- because the church says so.

The infallibility of the pope, according to Catholics themselves, comes from John 21:15–17, Luke 22:32, and Matthew 16:18. Read these verses all you like, read them until your eyes bleed, you will not find one word sanctioning the infallibility of popes, or of any man. It is the Catholic's bias that allows itself to read into Scripture whatever conclusion is needed -- a fault shared by many churches but no less a fault.

You won't find anything to support the Catholic cult of Mary -- here is what Vatican II says:

"... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls"

We can't look at the verses used to support this statement -- there aren't any.

A Catholic believes it to be true because they believe the magisterium, the words of men, and not the Bible. The Catholic church could easily have said, "Mary became Divine, co-equal with God, the Queen of Heaven, and the Mother of God, such that even God bows to her". You'll say, "Where does the Bible teach that?" Doesn't matter!

Don't concern yourself, the church has stated it to be so, therefore it is true.

The Pope says, "Mary ascended into heaven in a bodily form." Really? A good Catholic says, "Must be true cuz the Pope says so, and that settles it".

But the Bible says it is not the church but Scripture as the only rule of faith: It is Scripture that is the standard for instruction, doctrine, and correction.

If the church says Mary went to heaven bodily -- then this teaching stands or falls based on the testimony of Scripture alone. But the Catholic church is not based on Scripture alone, like so many churches it allows Scripture to be interpreted by the words of men -- its traditions -- and thereby overrules God. Just because it has done this as a matter of practice longer and more vehemently than Protestant churches is nothing to be proud of, and should be a matter of shame.

2Ti 3:16-17
16 --  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 --  so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.



Even if the Catholic church thought Rev 12:1-7 incorrectly to be speaking about Mary - which it is not -- it does not teach that Mary ascended into heaven bodily. Again we must have pre-conceived beliefs, not gained from the Bible, and then impart these beliefs into the text.

This is how the Catholic church abuses Scripture. We could just as well exegete Rev 12:1-7 as, "Mary lives inside the Sun and travels to the stars in a rocket ship powered by stardust, and in the summer she lives in a mansion on the Moon". Hey, the Bible doesn't say that but just like the Catholic church I'll inject into the text a foreign idea to get the conclusion I am seeking.

The Catholic church can spit out, "Mary remained a virgin all her life", that is easy.

But once again the Bible only says that "Joseph took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son ..."  Mary did not have relations with Joseph until she had her firstborn son, afterward she had other children. This is even implied by the text, even if we didn't have a dozen other verses stating that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

How do we know Mary had other children?  Because the Bible clearly and unambiguously says Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Catholic says, "but the Catholic church teaches otherwise, and we know the Bible can not be wrong, so it must be that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were not really brothers and sisters". On the contrary, the more obvious truth is: The Bible is true, Jesus had brothers and sisters, and the Catholic church is wrong (again).

Joh 7:5
5 -- For His brothers did not believe into Him.


Does John 7:5 make any sense unless it is speaking of Jesus' brothers who had not yet believe He was the Christ? It is certainly not a brother in Christ who did not believe in Him?

Mat 12:46-50
46 --  But while He was yet speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
47 --  Then one said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You.
48 --  But answering, He said to the one speaking to Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers?
49 --  And stretching out His hand to His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers.
50 --  For whoever does the will of My Father in Heaven, that one is My brother and sister and mother.


Who was standing outside wishing to speak with Jesus? Was it some "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ, or some distant relative. Obviously it was Mary with Jesus' brothers -- that is, the other sons of Mary, waiting to talk with Him -- this is the plain meaning. Is this not beyond arguing? But since the Catholic church has declared Mary to be a perpetual virgin -- they can NOT accept the word of God, for they choose rather to give preeminence to the decrees and opinions of men.

Of course, Paul did speak with James, known in history as elder of the Jerusalem church and brother of Christ -- but not if you follow Catholic dogma. The Bible plays second fiddle and is readily trampled underfoot to make room for the glorification of man's ideas. And the Catholic church wonders why Protestants are offended and repulsed at the violence they do to Scripture? The Catholic church's teaching is wrong -- but still they must hold to the unity of their wrongness -- lest they not speak with one voice. Better they reason, to agreeing with the magisterium than agreeing with God and the Bible.

Gal 1:19
19 --  But I saw no other of the apostles except James the brother of the Lord.



The Catholic church is wrong time and again -- it chooses to pervert the truth for its own deceitful purposes -- throughout history seeking to blind its own congregants with its deceptions, as it violates the Scriptures on nearly every front, but without shame or remorse. It arrogantly claims to be the one true Church, all the while denying the truth at every turn.

Such a thing would not be believable, that men could fall for such a scheme, and yet this is the situation, and on such a grand scale. But it is this very grand scale of deception, perpetrated on so many and for so long -- that the Catholic church looks to its obstinacy and defiance of truth as a badge of honor, it is willing to claim itself vindicated. For to the Catholic church the proof of its veracity is the fact that it has held to its error so long that its doctrines must then be true. An error held long enough is truth.

This is a source of strength for the Roman church and a comfort for its parishioners -- we know we are right because we are God's one true church and we are God's one true church because we know we are right.

And what is right? Whatever the Catholic church declares it to be. But how do we know the church is not in error? Because it is the one true church protected from all error.

It is circular logic resting on nothing ... Atlas holding up the world on the back of a giant turtle which itself stands on... nothing. Yet they do not see!

The Roman Catholic church can not be wrong, ever -- for whatever Scripture brought as proof of its error is simply part of someone erroneous 'individual interpretation', meaning: "a conclusion that is not endorsed by the official church".

And since the official church will not contradict its own teaching -- voilà, it can never be wrong!

As long as Doug Johnson and ten thousand like him think in this manner, they will not be able to interpret Scripture in any way but the church's way. Doug and company will always agree with their Holy catholic Church and its magisterium -- not because they are correct, which we've seen they are not. But because everything that gives meaning to their life, their faith, their hope, their trust in their church will come crashing down like a house built on sand, and that they can not permit, and so they dare not think things through but rest in the comfort of their one true church -- deception, lies, and all.


The Roman Catholic church says to pray repetitiously, "Hail Mary, full of grace ... pray for us sinners ..." over and over. But the Bible says in Matthew 6:7-8

Matthew 6:7,8
 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them.


Again, the Catholic church is in violation of clear instruction from the Scriptures not to pray with vain repetitions, especially not pleading to Mary who is but a person. Yet the Roman church sticks its finger in the eye of God and says infallibly to pray to the Blessed Virgin. The Roman church believes that Mary can speak to her Son, as can the Catholic saints, they can get "God's ear" to help you. It is painfully evident the carnality of their view of Christ -- He needs Mary to lend a hand. For Scripture support the Catholic quotes Luke 1:47 where Mary says, "Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed."

Of course she was blessed -- to be used by God is a great honor. But the Catholic twist the Scriptures so that Mary is blessing others through "all generation". It isn't just that all generations hence will look at her as a blessed because of her role in giving birth to the Messiah, but rather she will bless others by answering prayers and performing miracles to the faithful. This is a fine example of twisting Scripture to arrive at a pre-conceived notion.

Mary is not only called "blessed" she is actively assisting God in bestowing blessings from heaven -- and such is the distorted hermeneutics used by this church to get its way. And so the faithful Catholic buys their Mary statue and prays repetitiously counting their beads in front of it. It is both sad (because of the ignorance involved) and blasphemous (because of the error involved). The "one true church" is seeped in lies, lies and more lies. Words fail at the vileness of these horrendous doctrines and the level of ignorance needed to suppress the truth. Pray to Mary because she is the Mother of God?? What evil is this -- it is beyond description.

 

Here is some info from the web on some better known Popes. It is unlikely a Catholic has any familiarity with their own sordid history. The Protestants have at times persecuted the Catholic -- but they do not claim to have an infallible pope and be the free from error. It is the Catholic church that says on one hand "it is the pillar and foundation of the truth" and the pronouncements of the pope are "justly held irreformable". And what of the lives of the men who claim to be "Filii Vicarii Dei", that is "in the place of the Son of God".



1. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder. He fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia, who assassinated Pope Leo VI (928 - 929), and put her own teenage son (John XI) as Pope.

2. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him."

3. Pope Boniface VII (984 - 985), John XII and Leo VIII were described by the Bishop of Orleans as "monsters of guilt, reeking in blood and filth."

4. Pope John XV (985 - 996) split the churches finances among his relatives and was described as "covetous of filthy lucre and corrupt in all his acts."

5. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter."

6. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition, surpassing all his predecessors in killing over one million people.

7. Pope Boniface VIII (1294 - 1303). The Catholic encyclopedia states "Scarcely any possible crime was omitted - heresy, gross and unnatural immorality, idolatry, magic, simony ... his whole pontificate was one record of evil." Dante visited Rome and described the Vatican as a "sewer of corruption" and assigned Boniface VII, Nicholas III and Clement V to the "lowest parts of hell." He proposed to be an atheist and in 1302 issued the "Unum Sanctum" officially declaring the Roman Catholic church as the only true church, outside of which on one can be saved.

8. Pope John XXIII (1410 - 1415) was accused by 37 clergy witnesses of fornication, adultery, incest, sodomy, simony, theft and murder. It was proved by a legion of witnesses that he had seduced and violated 300 nuns. He kept a harem at Boulogne of 200 girls. He was publicly called the devil incarnate. He has been called the most depraved criminal who ever sat on the papal throne.

9. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise.

10. Pope Paul II (1464 - 1471) maintained a house full of concubines.

11. Pope Sixtus IV (1471 - 1484) financed his wars by selling church offices to the highest bidders.

12. Pope Innocent VII (1484 - 1492) fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women.

13. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On October 31, 1501 he conducted the worst ever sex orgy in the Vatican.

14. Pope Paul III (1534 - 1549) as a cardinal fathered three sons and a daughter and sought advice from astrologers.

15. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) the Catholic encyclopedia says "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. Luther visited Rome and said: "No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it."

16. Pope Joan was a female pope whose name was changed later to Pope Zacharias. Luther, on visiting Rome reported her statue in a back street, and John Huss referred to her in his defense as the Council of Constance and this went unchallenged. She died in childbirth while in a public procession.

17. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.

18. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint.

19. The "great schism" of 1378 lasted 50 years, where Italian and French popes cursed each other. Is this the same morally pure church that Christ left to preach the gospel? When confronted with such evil papal history, the Catholic church, which claims "infallibility", teaches that "A sinful pope ... remains a member of the church, and ... from whom we may not withdraw obedience." Catholic encyclopedia Volume 4 page 435.

20. Pope Alexander III decreed in 1170 that wills had to be made in front of a priest, or excommunication (cutting off from church and sentence to hell) would result.

21. Pope Innocent IV in 1252 approved torture and ordered civil authorities to burn "heretics" in the "Ad exstirpanda" Bull. This torture was reinforced by Popes Alexander IV, Clement IV, Nicholas IV, Boniface VIII and others from 1254 - 1303.



john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Chris

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2007, 09:08:46 PM »

There is only one true holy Church, and I'm sure you will agree with that.


Doug, let me ask you a question. Is your Church a necessity for a personal relationship with God? Are we saved by our membership in your church? Do we need to be a member to be 'born again'?

Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2007, 11:07:52 AM »

There is only one true holy Church, and I'm sure you will agree with that.


Doug, let me ask you a question. Is your Church a necessity for a personal relationship with God? Are we saved by our membership in your church? Do we need to be a member to be 'born again'?


Yes! You don't seem to have the propper respect for Catholic ecclesiology. Because whether you like it or not, for over a billion good Christians all around the world, the answer is yes. Absolutely, the Church literally is necessary for salvation. The Catholic Church body is absolutely essential to the ongoing progress of any Christian's sanctification, salvation, fellowship,service to God and maturity. The Catholic Church body is part of the ongoing process of an individual believer's salvation.


Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2007, 11:11:55 AM »
Quote
One Holy catholic Church agreeing with the magisterium and preaching what the Church teaches, not what each individual teaches.

... and not what the Bible teaches.


john


 John, I quoted scipture showing where purgatory is explained. No, the word is not there, but the principle is. Just like the Trinity. The word is not there, but the principle is.

 Believe it or not, Purgatory is actually one of the most oft mentioned doctrines in the New
Testament.  The first passage to show would be Matt 5:22-26 "But I say to you that every one
who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something
against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."  This passage has Purgatory all through it.  Let's break it down.  In verse 22 you see that there are different punishments for different offenses, this right away goes against what most Protestants believe, that is 'sin is sin', and there are no varying degrees.  Yet, Jesus very clearly here shows there are varying degrees of sin, that is why one is only answerable to the Sanhedrin, while the other is sent to Gehenna.  For our purposes of Purgatory, verse 25 & 26 clinch the case." lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."   Notice the judge, who is God, hands the offender over to the guard "TO BE PUT IN PRISON".  This prison cannot be Hell, because the next verse assumes you will get out "After you've paid the last penny", and no one gets out of Hell, it can't be heaven, for there is no punishment there.  This leaves only one other alternative, that being Purgatory.

    The second verse to bring up is 1 Cor 3:12-15 "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  Notice first of all, that Paul is speaking of our judgement day, for he says " the Day will disclose it" this 'day' can only refer to the time when we meet our maker.  Why?   Because "each ones work will become manifest", and when does that happen?  At the judgement, as the book of Revelation says "And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.(Rev 20:12).   Now note that the fire tests those works, if those works are good works, done in Christ (since He is the foundation), he will recieve a reward (see the Catholic teaching on merit here?).  If they are poor works, not done in Christ, his work is burned up, and "he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  One of the objections I've heard is "Well its the works that are burnt up, not the person."  Have none of it.  The passage very clearly says "...He will suffer loss", not just the works.  It also says "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

    The last verse, actually they are verses to use need to be put together.  I have yet to here a
non-Catholic respond to these.  First is Psalm 6:5; "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise?"; then Isaiah 38:18; "For Sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness."  Both these verses show that those in Hell do not praise God, right?  Then turn to Phillipians 2:10-11; "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."  Rev 5:13 is similar "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"  So what is my point?  Well we know those in Hell can't praise the Lord, as shown before.  The last two passages show people in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth giving glory to God.  We know those in heaven are the saints and angels, those on earth are the believers in Christ, but I ask you, who are those "under the earth", since they can't be in Hell???

 The Catholic Apologetics Network

Doug Johnson

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2007, 11:14:10 AM »
Quote
Why I am still a Catholic

well here are only Ten of the Countless Biblical Reasons why I am not a Roman Catholic

1. The Holy Bible is the ultimate authority of the Church, not the Church


Reformer, you wouldn't even have a bible if not for the catholic Church. You know that, right? All of you Protestants know that.


andreas

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Re: Why I Am Still A Catholic
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2007, 03:32:13 PM »
<<<Believe it or not, Purgatory is actually one of the most oft mentioned doctrines in the New Testament.>>>

 Purgatory  makes the Cross of Christ insufficient .We are justified by faith,

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5.

and not by faith and works.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3.

Our works do not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Pet. 2.

There is nothing left for purgatory to cleanse .

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.John 19.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

 


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