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Author Topic: Here is the Patience of the Saints  (Read 11595 times)

bram

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2006, 03:47:38 PM »
hi Pam,
 please read,

 http:// www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev11.html


Bram
trust in de Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding

Reformer

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2006, 08:43:21 PM »

This parable of the seed is one of the clearest passages of Scripture proving that believers will be yoked together with unbelievers until the end of the age.  This should put an end to saying we must not be yoked together with unbelievers, but it won’t.

Of course it won't because it's not true. And in fact, you've just been caught in another. You said before that people here were misrepresenting you because you were not saying that people should remain unequally yoked together with unbelievers in churches or that they should stay in these abominable churches. And now you contradict yourself, now saying scripture proves we should stay unequally yoked together with unbelievers. And yet the scripture says don't be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. What hocus pocus is this?

 Ro 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Deceive the simple is right, because who in their right mind would think that your doctrines are sound and make sense. Only the simple who are the type to be deceived by your fair speeches. I don't even know why you are here except to cause divisions. Why not stay in the forum you love so much and stop trying to be a preacher.

Reformer

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2006, 11:19:50 PM »
Reformer,

What I have said, and what I continue to say is that we have the choice to stay in a church that you and others would classify as abominable, or not to stay, without the risk of being condemned with the whore.

We all know what you said, the posts are here for and bear witness to your confusion. You can't change what you say from day to day and expect no one to know what you said a few days ago, or to be taken seriously when you change more than the weather. Furthermore, what kind of Christianity are you selling where Christians can make up their own mind to stay in an abominable church if they want to? It's not what we say. What happened to God's law in the matter? God doesn't work like that. What's wrong with you?

 Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

 Either God says that we are to stay in an abominable church because it's his people, or God says we are not supposed to stay in there. But not both! God is not talking out of both sides of his mouth like you are.

 Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

As Tony said, that's God's law, not his suggestion.


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I have always said that just because some of you see every church as abominable and the great whore does not make it any less church, nor does it necessarily make it so, just because you say so. 

Some of us see every church as abominable? Who would those some be? Are you lying on the Christians here again? Are you bearing false witness again? I have never said that every church was abominable. I have not heard anyone here say that. So who are you talking about? You can't name anyone because you are not telling the truth. And I couldn't say that if it wasn't true. Name this person or people here who said that. If not, why can't you? Because they exist only in your mind, for I have heard not one christian here say that every Church was now abominable. Maybe I missed someone. Can you tell me who?


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The external church does not become the great whore until after the two witnesses have finished their testimony, and they are killed.  If it did then it would mean that Christ could not build the Eternal Kingdom of God through the church as He said He would.

No one said the Church falls before the two witnesses finished their testimony. You are distorting us again. Or if I'm wrong, please name this mystery person here who said that. Why do you continually bear false witness? No one said the external church falls before the witnesses are killed.


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So if believers like Pam, or myself have felt that the church they are worshipping in has so compromised true biblical worship that they are uncomfortable there, then by all means leave THAT church.

If Pam is deceived by your doctrines so that she doesn't know confusion when she hears it, then she needs our prayers as much as you do.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2006, 03:23:05 AM »
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Can someone tell me who are the two witnesses?  Also, ...I see that when they die, all believers will be sealed.

Bram offered a good advice for you to read Tony Warren's Revelation 11 study. I will give you my two cents:

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Two Witnesses are God's Elects who were filled with Holy Spirit to bring gospel to the ends of the world. It took them almost 2,000 years. Our job was to bring in all of God's people until we have reached a point when God have finished sealing His people.

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The Great Tribulation will not start until ALL of God's people are sealed through our witnessing, THEN our testimony will be finished, in God's eyes:

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

When Two Witnesses have accomplished to secure the last Elects in God's family, whether we know it or not, our testimony is finished! Satan will then start to overcome us, killing us.  He killed Two Witnesses, spiritually speaking - ALL OF GOD'S PEOPLE. Satan did not kill some christians in few churches here and there so that there are still faithful churches somewhere.  When God said, "Satan shall kill Two Wtinesses", he means ALL! And notice that Two Witnesses' dead bodies will be lie in street of the great city which become like Sodom and Egypt.  God did not talk about couple of churches that are falling, but every church where True believers may be found. 

Two Witnesses were lying DEAD in church for three and half days. Of course, God is not talking about literal dead bodies found in the church, but our testimony become ineffective. In fact, during that period, Many of us were still in our churches, committed foruentation unawarely with church which became Babylon.

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:2-3 is speaking of same '3-1/2 days' period where True Believers (Two Witnesses or kings of the earth) lying dead in the city (church) which become the habitation of devils, committed fornication with her.  This is a period where church fell into apostasy with more and more false prophets and christs selling their false doctrines and lying signs and wonders that it will deceive so many people, even the elects, if that is possible.  They are the same people who rejoiced over 'dead' Two Witnesses in the church becasue they are no longer tormented by our testimony of Truth in the church!

Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

These external people will contiune to grow and taking control of the church.  Two Witnesses were still there UNTIL God decided that it was time for His People to come out of her (church). Why? Because God is about to judge Babylon! 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Compare this with Revelation 11:11-12.

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

See the similiar?  The 'voice from heaven' is a turning point in Great Tribualtion period because God will open His People's eyes to see what is going on in their churches and will heed His call to come out of Babylon. As God's people gradually depart out of church (yes all of church wherever they are), God has already judge Babylon:

Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Compare this with Revelation 18:8-10:

Rev 18:8  Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Ahhh. this is the SAME HOUR of judgment upon Babylon. The kings of the earth (Two Witnesses) standing afar off (came out of city), mourned for church because THEY are the only people who now see the judgment upon Babylon, not the external church-ians.  How long 'one hour' last before God return, I do not know, but it won't be long.

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So does that mean we do not witness anymore?

Where in the Bible that said we should stop witness anytime? Of course we still testify with Gospel, but the POWER OF SALVATION have been removed from our witnessing.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads
Rev 9:5  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Only external people, as well as unsaved world, without the seal of God will be hurt by the locusts. The locusts were commanded not to 'kill' them, so that they should be tormented for five month (a period of great tribulation).  I could be wrong, but I do not think the locusts would 'kill' external people like what happened to Two Witnesses (silenced their gospel witnessing), but allowed external people to be tormented by their own false doctrines that deceived themselves. That is what poisioned them as if scorpion striketh a man.  And here is another proof:   

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made [spirit of life], Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7  Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9  But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

The wise virgins (true believers) will understand that they will not have enough oil of salvation to spare for external believers, but testify against them to go to 'them that sell and buy for yourselves'. Compaire this with Revelation 13:15-17 about Lamb like beast:

Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many [Two Witnesses] as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

See, when the beast killed Two Witnesses, or anyone who refuse to worship the image of the beast, then what left in the church to receive a mark? ALL external believers or foolish virgins! They are the ones who were sent by wise virgins to these (false christs/prophets) who buy and sell with the beast in the church!

You see, our prophesies are nothing but testimony against church which are falling!  No wonder we are starting to hear from more and more 'enemies' who are offended by our testimony which testify against them and depart out of their churches.  They accused us of abandoning churches, sound fimiliar? That is their fear! (Revelation 11:11). They don't understand why we are leaving their churches, or even deny that God is finished with 'every' Church, or believe that God wanted us to stay in church right to the end for the sake of convenant, blah blah. They are the ones who receive not the love of Truth (Thess 2:8-12). They prefer to stay in Babylon church, not realized that their city is burning.  They still buy and sell in the church.  UNTIL  bridegroom comes and claim his bride (wise virgins, two witnesses, kings of the earth, etc. ). 

I am not telling you to leave your church or make a declaration that EVERY church on earth are already fallen. I testify what Scripture declares.  Only God's Holy Spirit (Spirit of Life) will enlight you to the Truth and you will know what to do. For Jesus said...

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

Peace,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2006, 03:51:13 AM »
Sandy,

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I encourage you, not to give up on all churches,

I am not giving up on all churches.  I never did say that any church was perfect.  That I know.  If it had to do with music, or whether we drink wine or not...I would stay.  But if, as in my church, they preach MANY false things, then yes, it is time to leave.  My church preaches Free Will, Dispensationalism, Age of Accoutablity, and more, only I can't think of it right now.  Why am I in it?  Because there is no other church better than this!  Can you believe that?  I know this is not an excuse.  In fact, I talked with a friend of mine the other day and she said that it is better to stay in A church, than none at all.   :o  This was a very good missionary friend of mine.

I then asked her, ......would God be pleased with what was being preached in this church?  She said, I cannot answer that.  So see, she already DID answer.  I know what I have to do, I just need the courage to do it.  Again, please pray.  I am all alone on this.

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This parable of the seed is one of the clearest passages of Scripture proving that believers will be yoked together with unbelievers until the end of the age.  This should put an end to saying we must not be yoked together with unbelievers, but it won’t.  Both grow together until the end of the world.

I do not see this as being "yoked" together with unbelievers.  It means we will be together with them, as in living on the same planet, but NOT yoked together.  That would be impossible.  

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I do not believe we will be condemned if we stay in the church.  

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

BUT...since all this eschatology...that is being taught here is new to me, I do not want to say much about something I do not know.


Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So I KNOW that His Sheep will not be lost.  I am not worried about eternal security, because I know that I have that.

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Here is the real difficulty I have with this teaching.  You say you are in a false church, which teaches false gospel.  They tell us therefore if Christ were to come again today, or tomorrow, or anytime and you are still there, then you, a believer, one who professes faith and belief will be condemned along with the whore.  Now they will be the first to tell you that this is not what they say, because they will tell you that the fact that you remain there is certain proof that you are in reality not among the elect of God, you are not a believer, and you can only prove you are a believer by coming out of the church.  How do they know this?
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Because you do not have ability to discern that every church is altogether without life, and you have not obeyed the absolute command to come out of her.  This is absolutely without any biblical merit.  There is no truth to this whatsoever.  This doctrine is the true abomination unto God.  

Well, I really believe that the Lord has given us a Spirit to discern right from wrong.  Only the unbelievers cannot discern Spiritual things.  

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Pam, God does see what is being preached in the churches today, and He is angry, and she will be judged, not only in history, but also at the end of the age.  But God does not bring His wrath and condemnation against believers who are still part of her.  We are called to persevere, and to overcome.  How are we persevering or overcoming, what are we persevering in or overcoming if we are not actively participating in building the kingdom?  Satan isn’t interested in disinterested Christians.

I do not think that a believer is disinterested if they are seeking truth.  Just the opposite.  I believe the ones that are "happy where they are" no matter what, are the disinterested believers!   We should not stay in a false church so to "build the kingdom".  

You know...I even have problems witnessing to people, because of my churche's beliefs.  I say to myself, where will I bring them after they "believe"?  !!!  Do I bring them to a church that has false doctrine?  This does not make sense.

I am not all done with "church" per se.  I still would LOVE to have a faithful church.  IF I find one, I will go! Amen!  I just don't see any here...as of yet.

Pam








Reformer

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2006, 07:14:51 AM »
 But if, as in my church, they preach MANY false things, then yes, it is time to leave.  My church preaches Free Will, Dispensationalism, Age of Accoutablity, and more, only I can't think of it right now.  Why am I in it?  Because there is no other church better than this!

You know this is not an excuse, and yet you seem to give it as an excuse. I can't imagine Christ going to a dispensationalist church, can you? Yet you continue to go there as if it is Christ's house and they preach the kingdom of  Christ. Actually they preach the anti-christ worldly kingdom.


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 In fact, I talked with a friend of mine the other day and she said that it is better to stay in A church, than none at all.

If we keep seeking council from church members and friends rather than from the word of God, naturally we are confused.

 Pr 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

       Council that ignores God's word is void of his law and smacks of church tradition. If Job took counsel of his friends, he'd have been in trouble.

 Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?


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This was a very good missionary friend of mine. I then asked her, ......would God be pleased with what was being preached in this church?  She said, I cannot answer that.

She could answer that, she just wouldn't answer it because obviously she didn't like the answer. Just like some in this forum won't answer pertinent questions because the answer will prove them wrong. It's a dead giveaway of those who are avoiding the truth.


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 So see, she already DID answer.

Yes, by refusing to answer, she showed where her heart was. In Church, not in Christ. She is your friend, and thus you cannot see that. Yet it is obvious by her answer where her alliances lie.


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I know what I have to do, I just need the courage to do it.

You won't get courage from pining after a dispensationalist church. And if you know what you have to do, and yet you refuse to do it, then again you are in violation of God's law.

 Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


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Quote
This parable of the seed is one of the clearest passages of Scripture proving that believers will be yoked together with unbelievers until the end of the age.  This should put an end to saying we must not be yoked together with unbelievers, but it won’t.  Both grow together until the end of the world.

I do not see this as being "yoked" together with unbelievers.  It means we will be together with them, as in living on the same planet, but NOT yoked together.  That would be impossible.  

You are right of course, but you might as well be talking to a wall. She has perverted that passage as she has many others.

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


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I do not believe we will be condemned if we stay in the church.  

Neither did the Jews. And yet those who did stay, were condemned. Only those who recognized that the Lord's congregation had to come out of the Judaizer's congregation, were truly saved. The rest were just religious people deluding themselves that a righteous God wouldn't judge them for that.


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Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Some people just don't get it. They believe not, evenwhen saying they believe. If they had truly believed, they would hear his voice and follow him. Not stand there saying there is no condemnation if I disobey or if I can't hear.


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So I KNOW that His Sheep will not be lost.

That's right. And why not? Because they are not only hearers of the word, but doers. Just as Scripture says.


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Here is the real difficulty I have with this teaching.  You say you are in a false church, which teaches false gospel.  They tell us therefore if Christ were to come again today, or tomorrow, or anytime and you are still there, then you, a believer, one who professes faith and belief will be condemned along with the whore.

Her problem is that she thinks every professing believer in a church is a true child of God. Therefore, if they go contrary to God's word and stay in a false Church they are still saved. That's poppy-cock! The fountains of water will be turned to blood, and that's that! What will she do when it's too late.

 Re 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


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 This is absolutely without any biblical merit.  There is no truth to this whatsoever.  This doctrine is the true abomination unto God.  

 Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Careful of condemning the Spirit of truth. Careful of calling God's doctrine an abomination, because you are in danger of the very damnation of the deluded, that God speaks about.

 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


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I do not think that a believer is disinterested if they are seeking truth.  Just the opposite.  I believe the ones that are "happy where they are" no matter what, are the disinterested believers!   We should not stay in a false church so to "build the kingdom".  


Correct, but you are talking to a brick wall again.

In fact, she'll probably write back and say she's not saying that. Then right back tomorrow saying that she is.


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You know...I even have problems witnessing to people, because of my churche's beliefs.  I say to myself, where will I bring them after they "believe"?  !!!  Do I bring them to a church that has false doctrine?  This does not make sense.

But don't we witness to them about Christ, and not a church? If we do, there should be no problem. Isn't that what true missionaries do who go out into the countries with nothing more than a bible and the clothes on their backs?


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I am not all done with "church" per se.  I still would LOVE to have a faithful church.  IF I find one, I will go! Amen!  I just don't see any here...as of yet.
Pam

And that's all we're saying. When we see an abominable church, we are to come out. Sandy says no. Then she says yes, then she says no again, then she says maybe, but it's up to however we personally believe. That's nonsense!

If the church is in this bad a shape now, think what it will be in 5 years from now. We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend the Church is fine, or we can face reality in reading scripture and realizing this was all prophecied. Christ wanted us to know so we would receive truth and not be among those deluded.


Reformer

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2006, 07:26:31 AM »

 Exactly what is the patience of the saints?


In a nutshell it is the Reformed doctrine of the "Perseverance of the saints!" This passage teaches that all true believers will persist in obedience and holiness during the Great Tribulation period. It is not talking about being loving to the world. That is a wrong idea. Tribulation saints will suffer great persecution for refusing to take the mark of the beast. And they will see church members who do take the mark avoid the disdain they are experiencing. For the non-patient, they will fall away in order to avoid this tribulation. But the patient will persevere in the doctrines of Christ refusing to go along with the Church in worshipping a false God in the holy temple.




Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2006, 09:05:31 AM »
Reformer,

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But if, as in my church, they preach MANY false things, then yes, it is time to leave.  My church preaches Free Will, Dispensationalism, Age of Accoutablity, and more, only I can't think of it right now.  Why am I in it?  Because there is no other church better than this!
You know this is not an excuse, and yet you seem to give it as an excuse. I can't imagine Christ going to a dispensationalist Church. Yet you continue to go there as if it is Christ's house and they preach the kingdom of  Christ. Actually they preach the anti-christ worldly kingdom.

No sir.  I am not using this as an excuse.  I have no excuse.   I know what I have to do...but it is not easy(for me).  I guess really what I have been doing is weighing sides.  I know, this is not right.  I have listened to many well-meaning friends, and I also know that they can be in error also.  One has told me that eschatology is not something to divide over.  As I said in another post though, I see this as "another gospel", in that when I am under this preaching, I don't understand WHAT they are talking about.  So yes, I am convicted.  I just need to get up and go...

Here is my dilemma.  No one in my church knows about my beliefs.  I have kept them to myself, in order not to cause division.  My other pastor was very strict and did not want anything discussed other than what they believed to be true.  Do I just leave without telling anyone?  Or should I at least try to say why, that maybe someone's eyes will be opened?  I don't know if I did more harm than good.  :(

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Yes, by refusing to answer, she showed where her heart was. In Church, not in Christ.She is your friend, and thus you cannot see that. Yet it is obvious by her answer where her alliances lie.

Hmm---I cannot say that.  I know she is full of the love of Christ.  Maybe she just does not see what I do?  Yet...


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I do not believe we will be condemned if we stay in the church.
Neither did the Jews. And yet those who did stay, were condemned. Only those who recognized that the Lord's congregation had to come out were truly saved. The rest were just religious people deluding themselves that they sought God.

Ooops.  I better rethink that one.  Yes, of course the Lord will open our eyes.  I guess that is what I wanted to say.  He will not leave His people in their.  He will tell them to "come out".

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Some people just don't get it. They believe not, evenwhen saying they believe. If they had truly believed, they would hear his voice and follow him. Not stand there saying there is no condemnation if I disobey or if I can't hear.

Yes, I see your point.  His sheep WILL hear His voice, amen.

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But don't we witness to them about Christ, and not a Church? If we do, there should be no problem. Isn't that what true missionaries do who go out into the countries with nothing more than a bible and the clothes on their backs?

Of course, again you are right.

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I am not all done with "church" per se.  I still would LOVE to have a faithful church.  IF I find one, I will go! Amen!  I just don't see any here...as of yet
And that's all we're saying. When we see an abominable church, we are to come out. Sandy says no. Then she says yes, then she says no again, then she says maybe, it's up to however we personally believe. That's nonsense!

And that is what I am seeing.  You are not saying leave all churches...just all false churches.  Yes, this makes sense. 

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If the Church is in this bad a shape now, think what it will be in 5 years from now. We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend the Church is fine, or we can face reality in reading scripture and realizing this was all prophecied. Christ wanted us to know so we would receive truth and not be among those deluded.

I am already depressed, and have only been a child of God for 7 years! 

I do want to say thanks for being blunt.  I would rather hear it like it is, than to hear "sweet words" that would make me feel better.

Pam


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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2006, 10:17:08 AM »
No sir.  I am not using this as an excuse.  I have no excuse.   I know what I have to do...but it is not easy(for me).

That's because you are listening to people, not to the bible. I don't say that to attack you (I'm not), just as from what I hear you saying. You keep talking about what this one friend says and what that friend says. But what you should be addressing, but are not, is what the bible says. I don't hear that. What I'm saying is, you can't place your trust in what people say. Not in what I say or what Sandy says or what your friend says. You have to be obedient to God's word concerning abomination in the Church. Not what does Sandy say, but what does God say about another gospel? That's the bottom line.

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I guess really what I have been doing is weighing sides.

That's what I'm talking about. That's what Tony is talking about. That's what Erik is talking about. That's what Goldrush, dsouzaanthony, allofgrace, etc., is talking about. Don't weigh sides (people's views), weigh your position against God's word and see if the balances are just.

 Pr 16:11  A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.
 12  It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.


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  I know, this is not right.  I have listened to many well-meaning friends, and I also know that they can be in error also.

Exactly the point we are making. God cannot be in error, so why not weigh your position against His judgments, rather than people's.


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  One has told me that eschatology is not something to divide over.

Dispensationalism is already divided from the gospel of Christ. You can't divide over something that is not joined in the first place. That's like saying Roman Catholicism is nothing for the Church to divide over. No, because it's already divided over it. God's Church and Roman Catholicism cannot be joined. Neither can, Judaism,  Dispensationalism or Mormonism.


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So yes, I am convicted.  I just need to get up and go...

And if you don't get up and go, do you feel as if you are still being obedient to God and his spirit wants you to remain?

 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is true isn't it Pam?


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Here is my dilemma.  No one in my church knows about my beliefs.  I have kept them to myself, in order not to cause division.  My other pastor was very strict and did not want anything discussed other than what they believed to be true.  Do I just leave without telling anyone?  Or should I at least try to say why, that maybe someone's eyes will be opened?  I don't know if I did more harm than good.


More harm to what? More harm to a already false church? A already false teaching? A already false teacher? There's no more harm that can be done, except to yourself.


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Yes, by refusing to answer, she showed where her heart was. In Church, not in Christ.She is your friend, and thus you cannot see that. Yet it is obvious by her answer where her alliances lie.
Hmm---I cannot say that.  I know she is full of the love of Christ.  Maybe she just does not see what I do?  Yet...


Everyone says that you know. My sister who I dearly love is still in a false church, but I know she is full of the love of Christ. Well, actually I don't know that at all but that's what I keep telling myself because no one is going to say their friend or loved one is a false Christian. And it's not our judgment to make, it's God's. So our belief about that is really neither here nor there. The point is, she didn't want to answer the question because answering it would reveal something that she disagreed with. Tony often uses the example of Christ in dealing with this subject of those who refuse to answer his questions because it would reveal the heart.

 Mt 21:23  And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

See, it wasn't that they couldn't answer that, it was that they "wouldn't" answer it because it would reveal their hearts. Thus they say, I can't answer that.


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I am not all done with "church" per se.  I still would LOVE to have a faithful church.  IF I find one, I will go! Amen!  I just don't see any here...as of yet
And that's all we're saying. When we see an abominable church, we are to come out. Sandy says no. Then she says yes, then she says no again, then she says maybe, it's up to however we personally believe. That's nonsense!
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And that is what I am seeing.  You are not saying leave all churches...just all false churches.  Yes, this makes sense. 

Exactly. Just as Christ said, "When you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel stranding in the holy place." In other words, we have to see it, and we will never see it if we close our eyes to church atrocities and pretend it's not abomination or that we can stay in the abomination as long as we want so long as our or their heart is pure. We will have to flee because we are those who are obedient to the spirit of truth, rather than being the uncircumcised in heart and ears who always resist the Holy Spirit.


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I am already depressed, and have only been a child of God for 7 years! 

Rejoice in trail. That's the point.

 Mt 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

 We mourn, we are saddened for all the evil going on. We are those who mourn because of sin. Others are not, claiming there really is no abominations in their church.


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I do want to say thanks for being blunt.  I would rather hear it like it is, than to hear "sweet words" that would make me feel better.

Pam

I have learned from Tony Warren that telling the truth, no matter how it may hurt in the short term, is always the best policy ultimately. I have never seen anyone come closer to God by people agreeing with everything they said or telling them God loves them no matter what they do, or that there is truth on all sides of the issue. Christ is our example, and he never told anyone anything but the unadulterated truth.

 Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 41 I receive not honour from men.

 Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Christ taught with both the carrot and the stick. He spoke of both judgment and of faith in obedience. Of building upon solid ground, and of building upon sand. That's a good example, wouldn't you say?

 Again, sorry if I appear harsh, it's just that I take the word of God very seriously, and I am saddened that this is rare in the church today. Yet curiously there are quite a few really sound believers on this forum, and it's been my pleasure to fellowship with them here over the years.

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2006, 04:38:37 PM »
Hi Erick!

Thanks again for taking your time to show me that the Two Witnesses are the True Believers.

I have skimmed over some of what Tony wrote, (all 108 pages)...but haven't had time to do an in depth study yet. 

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The Great Tribulation will not start until ALL of God's people are sealed through our witnessing, THEN our testimony will be finished, in God's eyes:

See...I wasn't sure about when the GT started.  Btw...your chart has helped me out alot to "see" things better. :)

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When Two Witnesses have accomplished to secure the last Elects in God's family, whether we know it or not, our testimony is finished!

So then, we will not know that our testimony is finished.  So we will just keep on witnessing, right?

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Two Witnesses' dead bodies will be lie in street of the great city which become like Sodom and Egypt.

I take it that the "great city" is the external church?

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Two Witnesses were lying DEAD in church for three and half days. Of course, God is not talking about literal dead bodies found in the church, but our testimony become ineffective. In fact, during that period, Many of us were still in our churches, committed foruentation unawarely with church which became Babylon.

Many of us?  You mean true believers, or ones that claim to be, but are not?

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Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Hmm...this right here is telling me that IF I, or some other believer were to stay in the church, we would receive her plagues. Soooo...I guess that proves that what Sandy was saying is wrong.  (nothing against you Sandy)  I was not sure till now, to tell you the truth.  But God DOES warn us, amen?


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I am not telling you to leave your church or make a declaration that EVERY church on earth are already fallen. I testify what Scripture declares.  Only God's Holy Spirit (Spirit of Life) will enlight you to the Truth and you will know what to do. For Jesus said...

I know you're not.  And I thank God for that.  Like I told you before, I have heard another preacher, stating that there are NO faithful churches anymore.  He has alot of good teachings, but I feel that he is in error in this. 

Again, thanks Erick for your hard work.

Pam





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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2006, 06:53:44 PM »
Erik, I know you are sick and tired of me, you and others have made that abundantly clear.


Why would anyone get tired of someone who twists scripture, ignores questions, and bears false witness about others continually?

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  In fact a number of you have ignored your own forum rules for posting in a deflamatory manner in which you have attacked me personally.  Liar,

Well if there was another word for it, maybe we could use that. But there isn't. Even God calls it lies, can we use a better word? You have lied and that's a fact. It's not theory, it's not supposition, it's a fact. Everyone here, including yourself, knows that you lied on me and the others here. It's the truth and you should be ashamed of yourself. You don't even bother to apologize because you don't care that you lie. Well don't put your false witness in my mouth. I never said those things and you know it. And I'm sick and tired of you pretending that you are innocent, until the next round of distortions.

 Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 


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Surely you can see this is more than attacking what I post or my doctrine?  It seems I must be making some pretty good points, otherwise why would there be such a vehement attack on my character, and this mischaracterizing what I say?         

Mischaracterizing what you say? I believe that you are mad. It is exactly your doctrines that are under attack, and your false witnesses about what others say and believe. It's simple. Stop deceiving and people will stop saying you are deceiving. Because you are, that much is evident.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2006, 01:30:05 AM »
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See...I wasn't sure about when the GT started.  Btw...your chart has helped me out alot to "see" things better. 


I am glad that my chart helps.
 
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When Two Witnesses have accomplished to secure the last Elects in God's family, whether we know it or not, our testimony is finished! So then, we will not know that our testimony is finished.  So we will just keep on witnessing, right?

My point is that no where in the Bible that tells us to stop preaching or witnessing to anyone during the Great Tribulation until the end.  The ‘power’ that God gave Two Witnesses in the first place (Revelation 11:3) for the purpose of bring God's people into His Family until God have sealed all of His People.   Then our testimony WILL be finished. It will be sometime prior to the Second Coming.  And Satan will be loosned for a short season. 
 
It does not mean that we simply stop witnessing to anyone. Gospel is two edge sword, and if there will be a time when no man cannot find death (salvation - Revelation 9), it means that the salvation part of our witnessing have been removed  whether we know it or not. That is why we mourned over Babylon, because we now realize that God is judging her and this is the sign that no man will longer buy our merchanise anymore (Revelation 18:10-11). 


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Two Witnesses' dead bodies will be lie in street of the great city which become like Sodom and Egypt.
I take it that the "great city" is the external church?

Yes. That is right. I will show you something else in Revelation.

Rev 11:1  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The holy city is making up of both the temple AND the court which is WITHOUT the temple.  The Gentiles around the holy city are the unsaved world where Satan always ruled over.  Together the temple (making up of true believers) and court (making up of both true and external believers) are considered as “holy city”. They will stay together until when Two Witnesses have finished with their testimony and that God have sealed all of His people.  God, then gave up the court to Satan and his forces.  This is picture of external church falling to Satan's rule.  Thus is the ‘holy city’ in Revelation 11, ‘Judea’ in Matthew 24, ‘great city’ of Babylon in Revelation 17/18, ‘great city’ like Sodom and Egypt of Revelation 11.  They are all speaking of SAME CITY from different perspectives.
 
Notice in Luke 21,

Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Being captive into all nations (gentiles) is picture of spiritual bondage of Satan.  Or 'which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt'.   They are the deceived people in the church that fall by the 'edge of the sword' and be led away captive into all nations.  Remember it was God who send strong lie against those people who does not love the truth (2nd thess 2:11-12).  Sadly they are the external believers!  And keep in mind that when God said "Jersualem", He means ALL CITY, not part of Jersualem, part of Judea, part of city, where we can flee to other part of judea so we can stay in church?  Something to think about.  Jersualem as church, will be trodden down by the Gentiles, where have we heard this before?

Rev 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Ahh, this is the same holy city, or Jersualem which will trodden down of the Gentiles (spiritual picture of satanic forces).  And there, God said, Two Witnesses will be lying dead in THAT CITY!  We were dying because overwhelming numbers of false prophets over came us in the church, silencing our witnessing of truth, beecasue people prefer to hear something else than Truth. Becuase of this, God will cause them to believe a lie, giving their kingdom to Satan:

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now, do you get the picture? Does it sound like we should stay in unfaithful church at all? The great city is WHOLE church. Judea is WHOLE church, and I think you get it.

Going back to Revelation 11:2, the ‘court without the temple’ is picture of external church where Two Witnesses were lying dead for 3-1/2 days, spiritual speaking. When God is about to judge Babylon (court, Holy City, great city, Judea, etc.), He will allow Satan to come in and rule there. And at the same time He commanded His people to come out of HER. See? Where do true believer go to?  To God, to Temple, to His Mountain, to camps of the saints:

Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Does it sound like there will be still faithful churches out there in the four quarters of the earth? Where will you find true believers? They are 'camping' out upon the 'mountain of God', wherever they are 'standing afar off" at FROM burning Babylon. This is spiritual picture before God cut this great tribulation short for OUR SAKE and bring the end of Satan's assualt.  If God did not cut the period short, then there is no true believers left on earth.  Again, does it sound like there will still be faithful churches on earth or that we should stay in church right to the end?

Man, I would go on and on and on but I do hope that you do get the message.

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Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Hmm...this right here is telling me that IF I, or some other believer were to stay in the church, we would receive her plagues. Soooo...I guess that proves that what Sandy was saying is wrong.  (nothing against you Sandy)  I was not sure till now, to tell you the truth.  But God DOES warn us, amen?

It is not matter of whether God’s people will stay in church despite God’s call. They WILL hear God and obey if they are truly His children.  You see, there will not be massive exodus from churches that anyone will notice!  God’s people are remnant of the church who will come out.   Think about it, listen to what God said:

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
 
Who are the remnant? Will unsaved world or unbelieving external christians every give glory to God while He judges their city? Of course not, they won’t even notice that their city is burning!  Only God’s people can! 

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I am not telling you to leave your church or make a declaration that EVERY church on earth are already fallen. I testify what Scripture declares.  Only God's Holy Spirit (Spirit of Life) will enlight you to the Truth and you will know what to do. For Jesus said...

I know you're not.  And I thank God for that.  Like I told you before, I have heard another preacher, stating that there are NO faithful churches anymore.  He has alot of good teachings, but I feel that he is in error in this.
 

I understand.  Whether this preacher is right or not is not important. What is more important is what BIBLE tells you.

Peace,
Erik
 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2006, 01:34:44 AM »
Erik,

Are you saying that the gospel has gone out to the ends of the world, that it is no longer going out? Are you also saying that all of God's people have been sealed, there are now no more to be sealed?
 
Where does Scripture tell us that great tribulation will not start until God has sealed all the elect through the testimony of the witnesses?

You use Rev. 7:3,4 to show that God will seal all the elect before great tribulation begins. I wonder if you could comment on these verses in Ezekiel, and show how they may, or may not relate to this passage in Rev. 7. These words of Ezekiel appear to speak to the literal nation...................... ..........

----------- zip  -------------------------

Sorry if this sounds harsh, I already gave you (and others) the Scirpture that answered your reptition questions. You just don't listen.

Anyone can scroll this thread up or search this forum and read what I or Tony Warren have already explained.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2006, 08:59:44 AM »
Reformer,

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That's because you are listening to people, not to the bible. I don't say that to attack you (I'm not), just as from what I hear you saying.

I know you are not trying to attack me, and that I am listening to others, and not what God says.  Really, I think God has been speaking to me for quite some time now.  Only thing is, is that I DID listen to my friends, and they ALL kept saying you NEED to stay in a church.  ???  I was quite confused about this, and wondered why.  I thought truthfully...that I must be "missing something".  Was it only me?  I guess it was, and is.  Well there may be others there that are thinking just like me, and haven't done anything yet.  Only God knows.

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And if you don't get up and go, do you feel as if you are still being obedient to God and his spirit wants you to remain?

No I don't.

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One has told me that eschatology is not something to divide over.

Dispensationalism is already divided from the gospel of Christ. You can't divide over something that is not joined in the first place. That's like saying Roman Catholicism is nothing for the Church to divide over. No, because it's already divided over it. God's Church and Roman Catholicism cannot be joined. Neither can, Judaism,  Dispensationalism or Mormonism.

Try to tell that to some people and they will think you are crazy.  Ha!..."patience of the saints".   I am agreeing with you though.  I see it just as bad as being in a church that only preaches half truth, like the RC church, yes.

Funny, a sister/friend of mine just last Sunday said, "Pam, stay in this church", because they preach alot of scripture.  Of course she is dispensationalist also, but is seeing some error in that doctrine.  She and others know how i have been feeling lately.  BUT, if you only preach half of the truth, then what is the other half?  A lie!

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See, it wasn't that they couldn't answer that, it was that they wouldn't answer it because it would reveal their hearts. Thus they say, I can't answer that.

True.

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We mourn, we are saddened for all the evil going on. We are those who mourn because of sin. Others are not.

Yes, but I am worse.  I complain, am hurt, but do nothing about it.  :(

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Again, sorry if I appear harsh, it's just that I take the word of God very seriously, and that is rare in the church today. Yet curiously there are quite a few really sound believers on this forum, and it's been my pleasure to fellowship with them here over the years.

No apology necessary.  You gave me the word of God.  Who am I to argue?   So far in this forum, I have learned much about answering people with God's word, and not opinions.  To read and compare scripture WITH scripture!  I love it!


Btw, are you in a church?  Or is this your only place to fellowship?  Just wondering.  This may be the only place that I have after leaving my church. 

Pam 

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2006, 11:26:45 AM »
Pam,

Paul tells us that if we have a brother in the Lord among us and he is committing sins, then we are not told to separate ourselves from the body, rather we are told to have no company, put away the one sinning from the body of Christ, i.e. excomunicate. 

You know as well as everyone else that this scripture is about how a faithful church deals with those in it that cause divisions, NOT about a church itself preaching false gospels like Dispensationalism, Roman Catholicism or Mormonism. So again you are using scripture out of context. When a church comes like these groups, we are not to stay there. No matter how many scriptures you quote out of context you will never prove that good Christians should stay in an abominable church. And everyone knows that except you.


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The covenant body of Christ is one body bearing the name of Christ.  The one body cannot be separated into two bodies, one called Christians, and the other church-ians, the body is one, with many parts, all are called the body of Christ, and Christians.

So Roman Catholicism is one body with us just because they call themselves the Church of Christ? You're not making any biblical sense whatsoever.


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It's really too bad that your missionary friend could not have told you why you should not separate yourself from the covenant body which bears the name of Christ, perhaps now you will be able to share with her the bodies importance.

Will you ever stop this nonsense. According to you, Martin Luther should have remained in the Church of Rome because (according to your theology) he should not separate himself from the covenant body which bears the name of Christ. How bad is that kind of thinking? I thank God that Martin Luther and all the Reformers had a relatively clear view of Christianity, and unlike you, understood the necessity to come out from among them. They departed that church because it rejected God's word and they were God's sheep who heard his voice that they could not be unequally yoked together with the Roman Catholic Church. Yet you call this wrong and imply that they should not leave a church that calls itself of Christ? How about Jim Jones church?

 Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!


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I cannot caution you in strong enough terms how important it is that you do not become an isolated Christian. 

 Is she on a deserted island? No, she is not isolated from Christians, she's posting to them even now. The isolation is all in your mind because you are isolated from truth.


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I kept searching the Bible, and again and again God revealed to me that it was not about me.  I was saved for a purpose, and it wasn't to feed only me.

She say this as if we have abandoned our calling to share the gospel and feed the sheep. I dare say the work Tony Warren and those on this website have done in feeding the sheep is more than Sandy and her church has done in her whole life. That's my opinion. No one has abandoned feeding the sheep. That's just Sandy doing what she does best, in misrepresenting what we believe in. We sure believe in evangelism and feeding the sheep or we wouldn't be here.


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I could not find a way of serving anyone but myself in these forums

You still are serving only yourself. But don't place your shortcomings upon us..


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All I had to do was to make my self available to serve, and now I serve in an imperfect, sinful church. 


You serve in an imperfect church, but whom do you serve there?

 Jos 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



 


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