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Author Topic: Here is the Patience of the Saints  (Read 11596 times)

Bradley

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Here is the Patience of the Saints
« on: April 06, 2006, 11:15:08 PM »
We must be constantly reminded of our calling in these last days to continue to proclaim the truth of God's commandments in love.

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But what is the patience of the saints?

2 Thessalonians 1:3-9
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

It appears to me that God has asked us to patiently endure our persecution and tribulation until he returns.  He states in verse 6 that He will be the one to recompense tribulation on those who trouble us, and in verse 7 he explains when he will do this; at his return when he is revealed from heaven.

This same theme can be seen in Revaltion 14 where we see a picture of the elect of God described in verse 4:

Revelation 14:4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Then in verse 6 we see the proclamation of the gospel, in verse 7 the call for the hour of judgment, in verse 8 the call that Babylon has fallen, in verse 9 the description of those buying and selling a false gospel message, in verse 10 the proclamation of judgment upon those who buy and sell the false gospel message, in verse 11 the smoke of their torment, the torment of those who buy and sell the false gospel message, in verse 12 we have the description of the patience and faith of the saints.  In the remaining verses we see a picture of the great harvest separating the wheat and the tares with the judgement of the tares.

Revelation 14:18-19
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

In my understanding, I see a picture of God's people who have not been defiled, and in whose mouth is found no guile, enduring along with those who buy and sell until the appointed time of separation.

1 Timothy 6:10-14
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here God once again contrasts those who erred from the faith with those who are quickened by God's Spirit to fight the good fight of faith.  He says to FLEE those things which contrast the righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and meekness and he says to keep this commandment until the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Again, another picture of the patience and faith of the Saints.

In 2 Timothy when Paul descibes the last days he says to turn away from those who have a "form of godliness" but who deny the True Power of God.  But he also shows us what the Saints should be doing:

2 Timothy 3:8-15
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of [them] all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Another example of the faith and patience of the Saints to endure the trial until God delivers them.  Continue on just as Paul taught, by resting in the Truth of the holy scriptures.  Continue to instruct those that oppose themselves, continue to fight the good fight of faith by proclaiming the Truth of God's Word.

2 Timothy 2:19-26
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This is what we should be doing is these last days.  We should continue to instruct (in meekness) those that oppose themselves.  We should depart from iniquity and flee our youthful lusts as evidence of our pure hearts before the Lord.

Hebrews 6:10-12
10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

We must show the same diligence to follow those who have endured through faith and patience to inherit the promises of God.  We must continue to instruct those who oppose themselves until the end.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:19-23
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.

God again describes two different groups within the church, with two different outcomes.  He does not say when this judgment begins, but in my opinion, it is speaking of the day of the Lord, the last day, when Christ returns.  Here again, we see a call to those who have not this doctrine to hold fast till He comes.

Revelation 13 also discusses this same topic.  The beginning of the chapter describes the beast coming out of the sea and it provides a picture of those who worship the beast.

Revelaiton 13:7-10
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

What is the patience and faith of the saints?  It is to be overcome, to be killed, yet to continue to proclaim the truth until the end.  Once the end has come, those who overcame us, will be led into captivity, those who killed us, will be killed, and that is the patience of the saints.

Matthew 24:40-46
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

In these last days, we must continue to instruct those that oppose themselves.  We must continue give them the meat of the gospel until our Lord returns, and we must do it with meekness and love.  This is the patience and faith of the saints.

Bradley

Kira

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2006, 09:11:53 AM »

 Exactly what is the patience of the saints?
K I R A 

GoldRush

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2006, 03:07:15 PM »

 Exactly what is the patience of the saints?

 

This description of Christian believers from Revelation 13:10 and 14:10 comes from the Greek word, "hupomone", which denotes a "cheerful (hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting)."   Strong's Concordance

J&R
GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
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Kira

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2006, 03:13:17 PM »

 Exactly what is the patience of the saints?

 

This description of Christian believers from Revelation 13:10 and 14:10 comes from the Greek word, "hupomone", which denotes a "cheerful (hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting)."   Strong's Concordance

J&R


Thank you Goldrush
K I R A 

Bradley

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2006, 08:57:43 AM »
>>>Do you mean by these statements that we continue to bring the gospel of the cross, Christ crucified, which may lead to repentance and salvation to the very end?  Is this what you meant when you said truth and meat?<<<


The gospel message never changes, and neither does our command to preach it.  What God does in the hearts of those who hear the message is up to the Lord, but I will continue to instruct until the end and leave the rest of it to the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 12:47-48
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Bradley

Tony Warren

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2006, 12:10:27 PM »
>>>
Exactly what is the patience of the saints?
<<<

Kira,

Allow me to rant. The biblical phrase the "Patience of the Saints" includes a great many things, all of which stem from the Spiritual root of the "true" Christian's endurance and faithfulness to the word in waiting upon the Lord in times when it is difficult. It does "NOT" teach or illustrate the Christian's penchant for being patient or longsuffering with false teachers, or of pampering those who twist scripture for their own purposes, or of catering to, coddling or humoring the deceitful. That would be a serious mischaracterization of this word patience in its context. Unfortunately, many people do not understand the true meaning of this phrase, nor its great illustration "first" of holding fast to the truth when those all around you are falling away. ...especially in our day.

Revelation 14:9-12
  • "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
  • The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
  • And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
  • Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Here we see that the patience is equated with "remaining" obedient to God's word in this time of trial and great tribulation. Here or herein is the patience (longsuffering) of the saints. In other words, when the beast is persecuting those within the house of God, those few who can persevere or patiently endure without falling away (2nd Thessalonians 2:3) or succumbing to that plagueof unfaithfulness, are the patient, the saints in view. Those who remain in obedience, so that (unlike the church around them) they are not deceived by clever speech and smooth words hat they end up worshiping the beast, are a living testimony of this patience of the saints. They are the truly Spirit filled who guard God's word from loss in this time of loss.

But to listen to many church leaders today you would think this passage means we must "patiently" sit in our church under their false teaching and shower them with loving platitudes like "they'll understand it better by and by."  Do Not Believe That! The faithful saints will suffer through trials and tribulations, and that's where we get the word, "longsuffering." Because "by remaining faithful" in the face of great disdain, reviling, degradation of doctrine and apostasy, this is how the faith and patience of the elect of God is proved. Not patience defined as tolerating false teachings, abominable doctrines and false prophets, but patience in holding fast to sound doctrine and with longsuffering reproving with Scripture those who come into God's house with these false doctrines.

2nd Timothy 4:2-4
  • "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
  • For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
  • And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Here is the patience of the saints--in their longsuffering in persecution without being turned to unrighteousness. And when the time comes that these faithful saints are killed (symbolically), God commands them to flee to the mountains as He pours out His judgment upon the unfaithful church that has become as a spiritual harlot. For all intents and purposes, this time of trouble is a trial of faith that demonstrates what the patience of the saints truly is. Satan's ministers come among us appearing as the ministers of righteousness (2nd Corinthians 11:13-15), and they deceive the simple/foolish within in the church with crafty words. Those naive of the truth are deceived but the elect with the Spirit of truth will be patiently / faithfully waiting upon the Lord. Even in the face of all the apologists and antagonists who think they do God a service by allowing offense of the word. It is our perseverance through the Spirit of Christ in waiting upon the Lord and not succumbing to these pressures of the world that will get us through this time of great tribulation.

Indeed, the Bible tells us that it is God who sends this strong delusion upon those impatient (unfaithful) within His house that succumb to unrighteousness. He sends it as judgment. They were unable to persevere and "keep" God's word because they didn't really have the Spirit of truth, and that is to their own damnation. While those who endure by keeping (preserving)  the commandments of Gods unto the end, shall be saved. Like the seed that fell on rocky ground (Luke 8:13) these have no real nourishment of the root so that in time of trial and temptation, they fall away. They did not have the faith or patience of the saints to patiently persevere or wait upon the Lord (Psalms 37:9; 59:9;  Isaiah 40:31). On the contrary, they fell away to the lure of the world and they returned to life in sin, lawlessness and disobedience. They become antagonists to the truth.

Psalms 123:2-4
  • "Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their masters, and as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait upon the LORD our God, until that he have mercy upon us.
  • Have mercy upon us, O LORD, have mercy upon us: for we are exceedingly filled with contempt.
  • Our soul is exceedingly filled with the scorning of those that are at ease, and with the contempt of the proud."

And likewise, in the midst of this contempt for God in the church, so also our eyes will wait upon the Lord. For in this is revealed the "faith and patience of the saints." While many are falling away from the truth of the word in their instant gratification model. Those elect who "keep" the commandments of God will not take a seat in the Holy Temple to rule as if they were God. And at the appointed time God will call them out, for Christ will abandon that unholy place when abominations stand within.

Matthew 24:21-25
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
  • Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
  • Behold, I have told you before."

When the time comes, there won't be any physical or corporate church institutions with Christ left therein. Has God not told us that it is in Jerusalem that the two (faithful) witnesses will be killed (Revelation 11)? Have we not seen the secret or mystery of Babylon revealed therein? When we are told to come out of her, for God is about to pour out His plagues upon her, we do that "because" we have been patiently waiting. We don't need to go get oil to trim our lamps, because we have sufficient Spirit that when the call is made we are prepared to go. HERE is the patience and faith of the saints! Standing upon the solid foundation of the word of God, in the faith of Christ, the elect endure the sufferings and tribulations without falling, and are rewarded. They have faith in the supreme authority of God's word, rather than pious proclamations that "imply" that we should all patiently remain in the abominable church until Christ returns. Such is the nonsense that passes for careful exegesis these days. Those who remain shall be cut off just as the people of the congregation of the nation of Israel who remained were cut off, while the remnant were saved. Those who patiently wait upon the Lord shall be brought out just as Paul and the Apostles were brought out of that Old Covenant congregation of Israel. How did they know? Because they had the Spirit of truth to "receive" its love and thus God's word to come out, that they not be partaker with her in her sins or receive of her plagues.

Matthew 24:12-13
  • "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
  • But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Enduring to the end is the same message as the patience of the saints. What Love is this verse referring to that God prophesies will wax cold? Is it the type of love that is so prevalent in the churches today? Not at all, as  that love is definitely not waxing cold, it is increasing exponentially. Plenty of that kind of humanistic love both within and outside the church. And often plenty here in this forum. But the love that is lax and the love that is growing cold, is agape love. The Christ-like charity in us where we earnestly desire the salvation of others. Our great commission is we desire the will of God be done, not our own. Where we love our neighbor as ourselves and thus desire evangelism that they might be saved. That is the "true” love of God, rather than the humanistic lip service that passes for love in many modern churches.

2nd John 1:6
  • "And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

It is sad that some professing Christians just don't get it. We would ask, which is true love--the parent that spanks his child to correct him, or the parent that corrects by being their best friend or giving them presents and whatever their heart desires. Is it the love "as defined" by the world, Dr. Spock or Oprah Winfrey? Sure, there are plenty of self-righteous sensibilities to go around, but the love that God requires is waxing or growing cold. The truth is, this phrase "Christian love" is passed about so much it has become ...Just words! There is no Godly Spiritual work behind it. What love is growing cold? The love wherein Christians professing that God loves us all and we should not offend by telling the truth, this love is not growing cold. The love in Christians professing that we should not challenge false teachings in the church for fear of offending people with the truth is not growing cold. The love of Christians saying we should patiently pat false teachers on the back and say God bless you is certainly not growing cold. What love then is growing cold? It is the love in earnestly desiring God’s will be done in faithful evangelization, rather than the proliferation of empty words.

1st John 3:17-19
  • "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
  • My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
  • And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him."

What is true love and real compassion? It is saying "thus saith the Lord" and bearing faithful witness to His words. It is not in humanistic logic and compassion in sayings "Peace, Peace, when there is no Peace."

Finally, for those who want to be nebulous in dealing with false doctrines (as it seems the majority of professing Christians today), that is your prerogative. But I cannot in good conscience do it under the false guise of love, compassion or patience. Ultimately, God will be my judge, not man's humanistic sensibilities.

Patience of the saints speaks of their patience in "well doing," not of their patience with false teachers, doctrines or other gospels. It illustrates that they endure in Spirit rather than succumb to all the worldly temptation and trials that would prevent them from bringing forth fruit. That's the patience of the saints. Our faith is not in the permanency of a church building, it's in the faith of Christ that we hold fast the commandments of God. We worship Christ, not a church. Even in the face of World/Church/Christians that have no respect or reverence for truth anymore, we stand fast. Christ illustrated the Godly "love" that is demonstrated in our:

#1. ..loving God,
#2. ..which assures we love our fellow man
#3. ..which assures we will be heart felt witnesses fulfilling the great commission

Luke 8:14-15
  • "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
  • But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

Here is a good illustration of Godly patience, and a lack of Godly patience. On one the seed (word) is received and has taken hold for a while, but the call of the world chokes the word and there is ultimately no patience (endurance) and no fruit or works are returned. No patience of the saints and enduring faith is produced when you mix the world with the church.

To another, the word is received and "KEPT" patiently, and it brings forth fruit or good works. Again, that's not illustrating man's definition of patience, but the Biblical definition of Godly patience. Keeping (guarding from loss) God's word is the faith and patience of the Spirit led Saints. The Spirit of Christ produces our faith. So why do some professed Christians so single-minded, oppose God's word?

Hebrews 4:2
  • "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

This is Godly faith, and it has nothing to do with worldly faith, or the empty faith of simply professing that "I am a Christians and I love the church." That is very often just a meaningless platitude! That's not the faith of Christ, nor is it saving faith. It's at best a feeling, a belief, or an emotional facade masquerading as saving faith. True faith inspires change, and it's intimately connected with our subjection to the authority of God's word.

Revelation 14:12
  • "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

It doesn't mean they patiently received the words of deceivers, it means they spoke truthfully holding fast to God's word in the midst of deceivers. There is a difference. Something much of the church hasn't fully comprehended yet is that the truth IS offensive. That is precisely why we need the faith and patience of Christ. Because many people of the Lord's house don't want to hear the truth, as they are in rebellion against God's word and all they want to hear is an agreement with their own ideas or traditions.

Isaiah 30:9-10
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

They don't want to hear the truth, they want to hear people tell them they are right in their beliefs. They want to hear people tell them their deceitfully handling of the word of God is justified.  Rather than be as a child who has reverence for his father, they want to listen to their own ideas and words.  But we are to be meek (humble) before our Heavenly Father. Yes, we speak peaceably to our brethren, but we do not speak in ways that justify lies, nor sugar coat the truth, nor agree with the unagreeable. Patience doesn't mean we say "God speed" to everyone contending with God or who calls themselves Christian, it means we patiently hold fast the doctrines of Christ. We are not to be men-pleasers but God pleasers?

1st Kings 22:18
  • "And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?"

Nevertheless, in the patience of the Saints, could God's witness Micaiah prophesy anything less than what he did? I'm sure those Christians today would protest that Micaiah showed no love, and was not patient and had no compassion for this king. Nevertheless, He testified faithfully what God said "because" He waited upon God and thus would not flatter the king with smooth or agreeable words that were not true.

1st Kings 22:8
  • "And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so."

If Micaiah lived in our day, Christians would be castigating him for daring to say "thus saith the Lord," and complaining that Micaiah was legalistic. Many would claim although He spoke exactly what God said, he really showed no love or patience. 

Mind you, I'm not saying Christians should be nasty, mean spirited, hateful or cruel. What I'm saying is that they "MUST" bear witness to the truth regardless of what the misguided souls of the church think is proper etiquette. We all must answer to God, not to men. Therefore, let us be God pleasers rather than men-pleasers. This is the real definition of the patience and faith of the saints, the results of which are eternal peace in the paradise of God.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


AllofGrace

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2006, 02:57:15 PM »
This description of Christian believers from Revelation 13:10 and 14:10 comes from the Greek word, "hupomone", which denotes a "cheerful (hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting)."   Strong's Concordance J&R

Amen! The word patience in both those passages has to do with our "perseverance and continual endurance" in the midst of the trials and persecutions of the Great Tribulation. Neither is speaking of our "having patience with people" which is a separate matter that is addressed in scripture elsewhere.

Grace and Peace,

Michael


Grace and Peace,

Michael

AllofGrace

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2006, 03:38:41 PM »
Enduring to the end is the same message as the patience of the saints. What Love is this verse referring to that God prophesies will wax cold? Is it the type of love that is so prevalent in the churches today? Not at all, as  that love is definitely not waxing cold, it is increasing exponentially. Plenty of that kind of humanistic love both within and outside the church. And often plenty here in this forum. But the love that is lax and the love that is growing cold, is agape love. The Christ-like charity in us where we earnestly desire the salvation of others. Our great commission is we desire the will of God be done, not our own. Where we love our neighbor as ourselves and thus desire evangelism that they might be saved. That is the "true” love of God, rather than the humanistic lip service that passes for love in many modern churches.

Amen! I have seen this type of thing on many forums in our day. People teach all kinds of unbiblical ideas and false doctrines which are completely contrary to the teaching of scripture and no one is permitted to say anything stronger than "I see it differently" or "I disagree", or they are considered to be "unloving". Honestly, there is nothing more loving that to tell the truth to those who are in error, and to warn those who repeatedly ignore the scriptures and/or wrest them to fit their own man-made doctrines.

Ephesians 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

People do not mind a person setting forth their opinions in our day as long as they are also respectful of the opinions of others. But what people simply will not stand for is someone saying, based on the authority of scripture, "This is the truth and you are wrong." Everyone wants to have their "own truth" in our day.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I am of course not suggesting that we should be mean or cruel to people, of course we should not. But firmly telling people the truth is an act of true biblical love. And a forum that does not take a stand against such errors would soon be overrun by those who spread them. Instructing in meekness (2 Tim. 2:24), doesn't mean that we tolerate false doctrine, or cease to warn people who wrest the scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16). Such a notion would cause scripture to disagree with itself.

Grace and Peace,

Michael


Grace and Peace,

Michael

DorothyFan1

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2006, 09:22:38 PM »
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Mind you, I'm not saying Christians should be nasty, mean spirited, hateful or cruel. What I'm saying is that they "MUST" bear witness to the truth regardless of what the misguided souls of the church think is proper etiquette. We all must answer to God, not to men. Therefore, let us be God pleasers rather than men-pleasers. This is the real definition of the patience and faith of the saints, the results of which are eternal peace in the paradise of God..

I have a question about your comment, Tony. "What if" you are born into the wrong "church" aka the one you've been brought up to believe in is false because it teaches false doctrine? Are you saying you're supposed to oppose them visibly by making a ruckus and therefore becoming a target for retaliation? Doesn't patience simply mean staying true to God's Word...and not falling for false teachings? For example, I am currently in an Armenian Church that doesn't teach the true Word of God. I know this because up until recently I've been following this Church for a long time...not really understanding what or why to believe what I've been taught was true or not. But something happened to me recently about a month ago. There was a moment when I got this urge to "open my eyes" and "see". And it was frightening for me to see the truth that my Church simply doesn't follow the true Word of God. (Saying rosaries, bowing to idols, kneeling before wafers, praying to "saints") I am frightened and I don't know what to do. Everybody I know is part of this Church and I no longer believe what I've been taught is the Truth. I was told to go to "confession" and I refused. When I saw the long line of people wanting to "confess" I nearly gagged. I've realized that I've been taught nothing but pagan rituals all my life and now that I "see"...I immediately realized that I had to "get out" by no longer following this Church and its false teachings. I have since immersed myself by studying the Word of God and seeing the Truth as it is written. I've prayed to Jesus Christ to please forgive my sin in following this horrible Church and its pagan rituals and asking Jesus to keep me from falling away again. But I feel so alone.


Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 03:06:58 AM »
Hi Dorothy,

I really feel for you.  I live in Italy, and about 80% of the people here are Roman Catholics.  I myself was raised in a Southern Baptist church, but was not a believer.  When I met my husband who is Italian, we decided that "religion" was not important.  Then when our children got old enough, they were told by the "church" that it was time for them to start catechism. 

Me not being a believer, and not knowing the word, thougth it was OK if they went.  With my mentality, I thought that some religion was better than none, right?  Wrong!

7 years ago, I became a child of God.  I saw all the wrong things that were being praticed in the RC church.  Immediately, I knew that I had to get my children out.  In fact, they never went back since.

Sure, it has been hard, but I wanted to please God, and not man.  It was harder on my kids I guess than me though, seeing that they were not believers, and did not understand why mom would want them to leave. 

I am still "friends" with many people, but they know that I do not stand for their RC beliefs.  I do not hang out with them though, or fellowship.   Some think I am probably arrogant, but this is not so.  I HATE what that church has done to so many people.  I HATE that it was trying to take my kids and make them hell bound.  I mean...they even preach "purgatory".  As in, if you don't get it right in this world, then you have a second chance to "get out of hell" in the next!!!!  Paleeeeeeeeese!  Yes!  I AM MAD!

I believe it is your duty to tell other people about what you have discovered.  Remember that God is right there with you.  I am SO glad that He is opening your eyes Dorothy!  Praise the Lord!  Hallelujah!  This is a miracle for sure.  You don't have to start a ruckus, but you do need to get out.

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


You duty is to proclaim the word. 


One more thing.  I am SO glad that you found this forum Dorothy!  I did not have a "sound" church when I got saved.  Many of the doctrines were "man made".  Of course I discovered that as I grew in the Lord.  So you have a huge advantage.  Always though, make sure that you compare what is taught to you, with the Word of God.

God bless you,
Pam



Tony Warren

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 09:28:03 AM »
>>>
Mind you, I'm not saying Christians should be nasty, mean spirited, hateful or cruel. What I'm saying is that they "MUST" bear witness to the truth regardless of what the misguided souls of the church think is proper etiquette. We all must answer to God, not to men. Therefore, let us be God pleasers rather than men-pleasers. This is the real definition of the patience and faith of the saints, the results of which are eternal peace in the paradise of God..

I have a question about your comment, Tony. "What if" you are born into the wrong "church" aka the one you've been brought up to believe in is false because it teaches false doctrine? Are you saying you're supposed to oppose them visibly by making a ruckus and therefore becoming a target for retaliation?
<<<

No, not at all. What I'm saying is what I've said for the last twenty years. Namely, if we are born into the wrong "church" (which I was),  one we've been brought up to believe in is false because it teaches false doctrine (which it was), we are to depart that church for a faithful church (which I did). That is to say, providing that we can find a faithful church. But if we can't, that doesn't mean we are to then stay there ruled over by false teachers just to have fellowship. Which is (sadly) what many professing Christians believe. We still must flee idolatry, flee abominations, and the best place to flee to is the Spiritual Mountain Retreat. That solid Rock of Refuge where we have true fellowship with God and His people, not to mention true peace and safety. It is there in that Spiritual mountain that we are never alone. It is the only place where we cannot be moved.

Psalms 62:6-8
  • "He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
  • In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
  • Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."
Psalms 121:1
  • "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.."

The word translated hills, the same word translated mountains. We flee from the house that has become abominable, to the mountains of God from where we will find our help. No, we don't make a ruckus in someone else's house, we faithfully ear witness to the truth of God's word, and if they will not hear or receive it, we shake the dust off our feet and "depart out" of that house.


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Doesn't patience simply mean staying true to God's Word...and not falling for false teachings?
<<<

Ultimately, yes. I think that's pretty much what I've been saying also. But staying true to God's word by definition means that we don't remain in a false church that isn't true to God's word. Moreover, the patience of the saints is our "not giving up" and succumbing to worldly pressures, and our longsuffering in endurance in times of trials and tribulations. But when the house is fallen, it's time to leave. There are those who have no patience (biblically speaking) and so the minute they suffer any form of criticism of their doctrine, contention or adversity in the word, they will abandon their principles in favor of "getting along" with everyone else. Usually under the guise of unity, peace or even love. Even as in the parable of the Sower that Christ taught. In other words, it's easy to be patient when there is no adversity. But what about when we feel the wolves nipping at our heals? When you're being reviled, spoken evil against and persecuted? When your friends abandon you because of your stance? Patiently waiting is when all we have to do to make friends is "conform" to the worldly church views, and we refuse. That is the faith and patience of the saints. We will endure in these times, deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. Here are these that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 16:24-25
  • "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me!
  • For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

When others tire of well doing and are unfaithfully laying their cross down, we are taking up our cross and following Christ. Here is the patience of the saints in our realization that He never promised us a bed of roses. Indeed, He promised us adversity, tribulation, persecution, reviling and hatred in this world--and in the world to come, life everlasting in eternal glory. Those who look only to "feel good" and to make others "feel good" in this world will get exactly those temporal superficial feelings they seek. But building such a house won't be worth the wood, hay and stubble that it's built upon.

Some seem to think that patience is putting themselves under domination and rule of the devil and then sitting there at the foot of his throne patiently because of fellowship. But that is not the patience of the saints. That is capitulation or surrender. We can't sit under rule of sinful man (the man of sin) in the temple of God and call it worshiping patiently, or pretend this is akin to having Godly fellowship. What fellowship has the Temple of God with the Temple of idolatry (2nd Corinthians 6:16)? When our eyes are opened to truth, we have to come out from among idolatry. And the reason is "because" we have the patience of the saints, and the saints have to communion or agreement with false gods. We will not stay because we have the Spirit of God to recognize the abomination that leads to desolation and will flee it.

Matthew 10:14-15
  • "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
  • Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

If the truth of God's word is not received, but trampled under foot, then obviously it is not a house of God. What then is its foundation stone?


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For example, I am currently in an Armenian Church that doesn't teach the true Word of God.
<<<

So was I (in my youth) but once I was weaned from milk and received the meat of the word and understood that this was unrighteous, and I had to come out of such abominations and find another church. Which is when I found the Reformed Church tradition much more faithful to God's word. I didn't stay in that Arminian church because all my friends were there, or because I was really great in the choir, or because it was the denomination that my family was brought up in, I left because it was the God glorifying thing to do. Through no goodness of my own, but by grace of God I finally realized that I had to put God first. Ihus I "WAS FORCED" to come out regardless of my humanistic or personal feelings. I "know" how human feelings play a part in this, but the question is, who are we going to serve? A question that Christ addressed also in His teachings.

Matthew 10:37-38
  • "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
  • And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Finally true Christians have to decide who they are going to serve, and who they are going to have as their first love, and how important true doctrine and the faithful gospel is to them. And each person has to decide this for themselves.


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 There was a moment when I got this urge to "open my eyes" and "see". And it was frightening for me to see the truth that my Church simply doesn't follow the true Word of God. (Saying rosaries, bowing to idols, kneeling before wafers, praying to "saints") I am frightened and I don't know what to do.
<<<

I understand. And yet we "should" know what to do--for if our eyes are opened and what we see is an offense, we do what is right. As Christ said, "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out!" Meaning, remove that thing from you that offends you. If we really realize a church is not following the truth, then the Spirit of God that works within every single true believer should drive us from that place regardless of the chatter from the peanut gallery. And we should leave joyfully "Thanking God" that He has had favor on us to open our eyes to His blessed truth. And we should never look back (as Lot's wife) to what we have already recognized as sinfulness, because of feelings of fellowship, family or friends.

Luke 9:61-62
  • "And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
  • And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

In other words, though we have left one house, in doing so we have moved closer to the Lord and thus in deeper communion with the true body of believers, the true saints of God. The problem we have is that we are still human, still wrapped in this robe of flesh, and as such the flesh and "feelings" often get in the way of the Spirit.


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"...I immediately realized that I had to "get out" by no longer following this Church and its false teachings. I have since immersed myself by studying the Word of God and seeing the Truth as it is written. I've prayed to Jesus Christ to please forgive my sin in following this horrible Church and its pagan rituals and asking Jesus to keep me from falling away again. But I feel so alone.
<<<

Again, I understand. And yes, we can confess our sins. But when we are saved, our sin of following any horrible church and its pagan rituals are already forgiven, along with every other sin we have or will commit. But there is that old bug-a-boo word "feel" again. It's feelings that keep getting in the way of human beings. Today so many Christians allow feelings to rule over them, instead of them and God's law ruling over their feelings. When we immerse ourselves in the word we should never "feel" alone, for the Blessed word is like being our Rod and Staff that comforts us in times of those feelings. The Lord supplies all our needs. We just need to trust in Him.

Psalms 23:1
  • "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."

Like the sheep, when we take our eyes off ourselves, and put them on the Shepherd Christ, the loneliness recedes and is replaced by the feeling of security and communion with the true family or generation of God. Understand, being joined with a church isn't communion, being joined with Christ and the elect is the true communion. Because loneliness starts in the mind, and with the Spirit of God there it should end there. The God of peace means not only peace with God, but having peace within ourselves. This is "IF" we set our hearts and minds on things above, and not on things here on earth.

Philippians 4:8-9
  • "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
  • Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you."

We take our mind off ourselves and think on these things! None of these Spiritual things of God are found in the false church that we departed from. Else we wouldn't have departed.

Colossians 3:1-2
  • "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
  • Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

When we joy in the true kingdom of Christ, we better understand who the true people of the kingdom of God are. Then can we see the difference between being Christ-ians and being church-ians. The difference between the eternal assembly and the external assembly. Yes, we mourn for those still trapped in many of the facades masquerading as God's churches, but we cannot look back to them, nor feel that we are missing something by leaving them.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 02:47:57 AM »
Sandy, you did make alot of good points in your last post, but I don't think that the problem is about evangelizing, but about staying in false churches.  I know that even I fail to evangelize like I should, but do two wrongs (staying in false church/not evangelizing) make a right?

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So how is it possible to love only Christians, because that is what you are saying when you say you love the Church, but not church-ians?  If we say we love Christ, then we must love His covenant body, knowing that the covenant body is made up of both believers and unbelievers.

I am not sure if this is what was said, about loving only Christians, but not church-ians.  I think the point is NOT to dislike church-ians, but to dislike the false gospel that is being preached in these false churches.  I myself am still in one...but probably won't be for long. (please pray for me) I think that if God saw what is being preached in the churches today, He would be very angry.  I don't know why we are so hard headed, to think that love has to come before truth.   We can still love them by showing them that we will not stand for deception anymore.

I do agree that our focus should not be on "getting out of the church", but on Jesus.  Although in this forum, we are just trying to study together to understand more of God's word.  I would not go out and preach this to an unbeliever.  I would preach Christ and Him crucified.

I think we will be persecuted even by the "professing christians" in the church, for standing up for God's word.  I thinkthis is part of " the patience of the saints".

Just my two cents worth.

Pam


Tony Warren

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 10:15:56 AM »
>>>
We exhibit the patience of the saints when we steadfastly proclaim the gospel of salvation, the GOOD NEWS, even to the point of death.
<<<

Yes, great. So you mean it's not being patient with false teachers? It's not patiently waiting in an abominable church? It's not in saying, "I disagree but you make a good point," to those who would wrest and corrupt the word of God deceitfully?

I agree!

Luke 21:17-21
  • "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
  • But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
  • In your patience possess ye your souls.
  • And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
  • Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it Depart Out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

Oh my! There's that "don't stay there" because desolation is coming, but instead "Depart Out" of Judaea. That doctrine that Christ taught again. A doctrine that you obviously seem to hate so much. What is it that you say (contrary to Christ)--that we should instead "stay within Judaea" for the sake of fellowship and forsake Christ's "depart out" of Judaea teaching? Is that what you teach? What is your understanding of Judaea?


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Before the Lord departed this world He left us with this command, “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Mt. 28:19)
<<<

Straw Man! What has that to do with the price of bananas?

Revelation 11:6-7
  • "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
  • And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Herein is the Patience of the saints. But I suppose their shutting heaven, turning waters into blood and smiting the earth with plagues, is deemed by church-ians as judgmental, without love, lacking compassion and unrighteous pointing out the faults of others?

Let's face facts, why are these Christian Witnesses lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem when God commanded them to 'go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them?' Can you answer that in this Revelation 11 scenario? Perhaps then, as usual, you are talking in circles in the typical disjointed voice that has typified all who contend with the testimony of scripture.


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 There is no building of the Kingdom of God when our central message is “get out of the churches, they have all become the whore, and if you remain in them you will be condemned.”
<<<

In other words, "how dare our Lord say such things?" And how dare the Apostles leave God's holy congregation of Israel to go to the nations? How then will Israel be saved? But then again, they trusted in God's word, not the words of their congregation Priests and leaders. Who says come out of the great whore? Is it man, or is it in all righteousness, God?

Revelation 18:2-4
  • "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  • For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
  • And I heard another b]voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues[/b]."

Oh, there goes that depart out doctrine being taught that you apparently hate so much. When you say "there is no building of the Kingdom of God when our central message is get out of the churches, they have all become the whore and if you remain in them you will be condemned,” you have lost touch with the law of obedience, and replaced it with your own law. i.e., don't tell people what God says, tell them man's philosophy of smooth things that will make their ears tingle with love. Say Peace, Peace in Babylon, when there is no peace there.


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We may desire to love only Christians, and not church-ians, but as noble as that appears it is not possible.
<<<

Just one of the many "unrepentant" false witnesses that you've made here over the months. One, could be a mistake. Twice or three times, it could be carelessness. but continually, it's deceit and dishonesty. The "truth" is, you know perfectly well no one said that, but again deceit is typical of all those who contend unrighteously with the truth. For false witness is all they have to do battle with the true witness. Even as it's always been...

Mark 14:56-59
  • "For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
  • And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
  • We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
  • But neither so did their witness agree together."

For the record of true witnesses, we don't desire to love only Christians, but that comment is typical of dishonest tactics and the confused distortion of truth. And indeed typical of those who are Church-ians, and not Christ-ians. Christians don't deliberately practice deceit day after day. Whether of Roman Catholicism, Mormanism, or any other organization with people calling themselves the church, and yet distorting and refusing to follow the truth of God's word. This dishonesty may be hidden from man where he thinks it merely misguided, but "NEVER" from God.

2nd Corinthians 4:2-3
  • "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
  • But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:"

Deceit and dishonesty is not misguided, and it certainly is not a virtue, contrary to the ideas of many in the church today. Deceit is bt nature, deceit.


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 And then we demonstrate the patience of the saints, knowing that God alone will bring His elect into the Kingdom.
<<<

That is the "one truth" you've made. God alone will bring His elect into the Kingdom. He will call them out of the great harlot and prepare the way for the saints. Indeed "HERE" is the patience and faith of the saints. Not in fellowship with lawlessness and the lawless man or man of sin. Not in church-ians bowing down to the image of the beast in submissive unity with the unrighteous. But calling unto obedient to flee to the mountains when we see abomination standing in the Holy Place. You see, these faithful who flee don't have to join in as church-ians to "feel" secure, they "are" the true eternal church that can never fall. Those who remain in abomination, remain in a false security. Those who flee are the only truly secure.

Ephesians 1:13
  • "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

They are sealed with the Holy Spirit of the Covenant Promise, and it is unto the day of redemption. That's the true Church, not the corporate body. Wherever they (the two witnesses) go, the eternal church is. Not a external body proclaiming itself the church.


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Our evangelism will again, and again appear to bear no fruit, and we will have a tendency to become discouraged.
<<<

With all due respect, are you deaf to the word? The two witnesses are killed! Do you understand what killed or [apokteino] means? Their testimony n the church is finished. Do you understand what finished or [teleo] means? It means it's over, t's been completed, their appointed work has been accomplished so that has concluded. So it doesn't just "APPEAR" that these two witnesses bear no more fruit in this city, they are killed and they bear no more fruit. They have no more testimony because God said their testimony was finished.  All God's people are sealed (revelation 7) and God is pouring out His plagues upon the unrighteous. Read the Scriptures and stop making up or imagining latter day scenarios out of the imaginations of your own mind.

2nd Timothy 4:3-4
  • "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
  • And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

The church today wants preachers that teach only what they want to hear, rather than what God's word actually says. And you are the perfect example of those twisting the word to conform to your views.The Bible is not a fable or a work of fiction, it is serious business and not to be handled deceitfully. You can't just twist scripture to your own views and ignore the fact that the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem, their testimony finished, while the church is still on earth. Not for your own self-serving scenarios or for any reason. God says they are killed and you imply, no it may only appear they are killed or only appear that they can't testify? God Forbid.

They don't just appear to be killed, they are killed in Jerusalem. The two witnesses of God don't just appear to be dead in the streets of that holy city with the church-ians rejoicing, they are dead in the streets with the church-ians rejoicing. Thus, by the preponderance of God's Holy word, your whole scenario is fatally flawed. But I'm sorry to say that you will never come to truth so long as you continue to handle the word of God dishonestly.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 10:58:36 AM »
Some professing Ministers, teachers and theologians are like sharp Lawyers who speaks in half-truths and distorts by distracting as they plants seeds of doubt in the jurors minds in concentrating on ignoring "facts" and disputing evidence simply by saying things we can all agree on. They put forth scenarios wherein there is no sound basis in believing them (given the facts), and then with smooth words and slight of hand they imply this is what is true. Indeed, there are Lawyers in the churches today just as their were in Christ's first advent, and their motive is to look to distract from the facts and truth "by any means necessary."

Calling it 'Verbal gymnastics' is being "Charitable." Unfortunately, with most of those who contend with the truth, it has often come down to outright deliberate distortion and deceit, which is the really sad part in all this. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with any conclusions "honestly," but to do so by deceit reveals something sinister. For no true witness has to resort to "pretense,  chicanery, straw men, or deceit" in order to build up their case or show that they are coming with legitimate truth of Scripture. Indeed, on the contrary, that is evidence of a twisted or convoluted mind that believes anything is justified in order to combat doctrines that they disagree with. It's ultimately the sin of pride and a vain trust in oneself. I'm sure that some will think me cruel and arrogant for saying that, but I don't say it carelessly.

Psalms 40:4
  • "Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies."

The problem starts in the mind where they have convinced themselves that they have the truth, and thus they think that anything they do (including deceit and distortions) to prove they are right is somehow doing God a service. i.e., the ends justifies the means. Even as the Pharisees believed in their heart that their killing Christ was justified (from their presuppositional beliefs) and a service to God. Such is the nature of strong delusion, that it a mind of justification of untruths through misconceptions and logical fallacies.

John 16:2-3
  • " They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
  • And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."

Christ's words, not mine. So the fact that many people contend with the true witnesses of God and sincerely "BELIEVE" that they are doing God service, is not something which anyone should be surprised at. Behold, Christ has told us before that they would do this. Who is the father of lies but the great deceiver who makes lies seem like the truth to many? Who is the adversary and master of deceit in the word? It's not the Spirit of Christ, that's for sure.

2nd Corinthians 2:17
  • "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

Anyone can act sincere, but that is not "Love of God" in God's eyes. In man's eyes, yes! And that is what many people fail to understand. But if that were the case, Ghandi and Mother Teresa would have been the great faithful Christians and God's Beloved of the world. People are so easily fused into humanistic "feelings" and to judging by what seems right in their own eyes, that they miss the point of the "patience and faith of the saints" completely!

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Pamela

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Re: Here is the Patience of the Saints
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 03:29:26 PM »
Can someone tell me who are the two witnesses?  Also, ...I see that when they die, all believers will be sealed.  So does that mean we do not witness anymore?  And, if so, will we know not to witness?

Thanks,
Pam

 


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