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Author Topic: What is the Great Tribulation?  (Read 28870 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2006, 02:05:12 AM »
Pam and Judy,

I do want to response to your messages, but it have to wait until tomorrow. It is midnight here and I need to go to bed. 

But here is a chart that I thought might be helpful for you to think about then we can go from there.  The picture below might be hard to read.  If you cannot read, you can go ahead and view it at http://www.tribulationsigns.com/image/greattribulationchart.pdf It will look better. Make sure to view it in full screen. We can discuss more tomorrow or so.

Good night everyone,

Erik



Good night everyone,

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pamela

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2006, 02:09:27 AM »
Erik said:

Quote
Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

AFTER three days and a half period of Apostasy in the church where Two Witnesses were lying dead.  God ‘intervened’ to pour his Spirit of Life upon Two Witnesses.  It illustrates a Spiritual Awakening of the believers so that they will start seeing the Abomination of Desolation in the church.

Erik, this does not make sense.  If the two Witnesses were brought back to life, wouldn't they be able to witness again? !!!  They were silenced (dead), and now they are alive, meaning that they no longer are DEAD.  Meaning that they can again witness?  

So you are saying that they are dead only in the church?  When the Spirit of Life came upon them, they were brought BACK to LIFE, and came out of the church?  Think about this.  This means they now have the Spirit of Life, and again can witness outside of the church.  This sounds just like someone I know in Alameda.  I am not saying this to be sarcastic, but think about it.  I just recently started studying this, so I don't know much, but this here just doesn't make sense.

Pam

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2006, 11:18:45 AM »
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Erik, this does not make sense.  If the two Witnesses were brought back to life, wouldn't they be able to witness again? !!!  They were silenced (dead), and now they are alive, meaning that they no longer are DEAD.  Meaning that they can again witness? 

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

God empowered His Church with the Word of Life at the Cross. They started in Jerusalem until they went to the ends of the earth. It took them 2,000 years to accomplish this.  But when God see that He have finished sealing the last person he intended to save, our testimony is finished.  Then the beast come out of the bottomless pit will overcome and kill us in the city (church).  The believers are silenced by growing apostasy in the church.  The Word of Life no longer go forth in the city. They will be dead in the city for three and half days – a period of apostasy before God intervenes.  After three and half days of this death sleep in the city, the Spirit of life enters into these witnesses  and they stood up.  We need to understand that these witnesses were not literally dead, and so this is not a literal rising up from the dead. Nor were they spiritually dead (Since they are already saved).  So the killing of the Witnesses both in this passage, and in Revelation 13, signify only the silencing of the Word of life which they were bringing. In that sense only were they killed, and so in that sense only do they 'stand up' from that sense of death in these streets.

The standing up of the Witnesses upon their feet illustrates a Spiritual awakening of the faithful witnesses in the Churches by the Spirit of life. The symbology of feet in scripture points to the means of mobilization. God often uses it to signify those who are 'sent.' When these dead stand upon their feet, it is an illustration that they who were once silenced, are mobilized and empowered by the Spirit to again declare God's Word. But it is not a word of Salvation like that man from Alameda suggested, but of blowing of the trumpet. In other words, a word of warning that desolation is nigh.

Go ahead and read ten virgins parable in your bible and you will see that when the midnight cry is made, the salvation will have ended, the testimony finished, and the buyers and sellers are marked of the beast.  Clearly, when the cry is made to come out, it is not the end of the world yet, it will be a short period of separation, the precursor to Christ's second advent. The wise virgins testify to the foolish one to go out to those who sell and buys.  Not a testimony of salvation, inside or outside church!

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So you are saying that they are dead only in the church?  When the Spirit of Life came upon them, they were brought BACK to LIFE, and came out of the church?  Think about this.  This means they now have the Spirit of Life, and again can witness outside of the church.  This sounds just like someone I know in Alameda.  I am not saying this to be sarcastic, but think about it.  I just recently started studying this, so I don't know much, but this here just doesn't make sense.

I am sorry to say but this guy from Alameda has this wishful thinking that God will resume Salvation program through depart out Saints outside fallen churches.  That is not what Bible teaches.  First, God have already empowered His Two Witnesses to bring Word of Life to the rest of the world:

Act 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The church has already been empowered by Holy Ghost to bring Salvation to the ends of the earth as long as God was sealing His People.  Salvation ceases when the last person in God’s family has been sealed. No where in the Scripture that says God will resume sealing or save people again after a period of silence.  Not especially when Satan is being loosened and brings all people of the world against church!  That does not make any sense!  Remember God has bound a strong man (Satan) at the Cross so that His church can be built out of the world for the next 2,000 years.  After God have finish sealing his people, Satan will be loosened. It does not makes sense that  we can save many more people outside church with Satan being loosened because the unsaved world was always in Satan’s rule.  Think about it, if God wants to resume salvation outside church, He would have to bind Satan once again in order to resume salvation to people outside church. 

Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Already standing afar off from the church, they mourned over her because she is no longer a representative of God for the world and that no man can buy their merchandise anymore. Sound like a great salvation revival going on in the world? NOT!

The another thing to consider about that man in Alameda.  He developed a Latter Rain Salvation doctrine because he does not accept the biblical facts that there will be no more salvation after God has finished sealing ALL of His people.  People like him are concerned about their family, friend, and young children’s salvation, so they developed a doctrine that they wanted to believe God is not finished with salvation plan for people as long as they are ‘outside’ the church.   Sorry but the hard fact is that it is a wishful thinking.

That is why we will have a short period of Great Tribulation or No salvation until the end or there will be no faithful Christian left on earth to be rapture.   
 
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That is how bad Great Tribulation is all about!

Peace,
Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2006, 11:52:55 AM »
Quote
I'm a long-time supporter of WyCliff Bible Translators and know there are yet many parts of the world that the Gospel hasn't reached.
I realize this does not necessarily mean that God has elect in all these areas, but I think that this still needs to be taken into consideration in gauging how close we are to the end.

Judy, I personally don't believe that we need to figure out whether the Gospel has reached every part of the world to determine if we are in Great Tribulation or not.  Jesus already instructed….

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

You will know when you do see abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, if we have spiritual eyes to see.  We do not need to worry about few people in remote areas of the earth whether they have heard about gospel or not. No way will we ever know about it just like we have no idea when God have finished sealing his people, when great tribulation officially starts, or when Jesus will return. We only see the signs and Jesus already told us about these in Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, etc.   

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Mat 24:22 
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If indeeed salvation ends at the point of GT, and this period of time is of sufficient length that many true believers will physically die, but is not so long that "no flesh be saved", then this also suggest that the true Gospel shall be very scarce.  This is further supported by Scriptures that speak of a "famine" of salvation and of hearing the Word of God:

Correct. That is why it will be a great tribulation unlike the beginning of the world or shall be and will be 'short period'.  The True Gospel during the 'end-time' great tribulation will be very scarce to save anyone, therefore there is a spiritual famine in the land.  However God will have His people to prophesy against what is going on in the church.  I personally believe it has already happened.

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Luk 4:25-27
25  But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26  But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27  And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Could it be that this 3 1/2 years when heaven as shut up symbolizes this period of GT?  If so, it is interesting (and important) to note that despite this, Elias went to and saved one widow and one leper -- each symbolizing the elect.  God seems to always allow for a small remant even during times of His wrath.  This is one of several reason why I think we need to humbly say it's strictly God's business as to whether or not He allows a church or individuals to stand or fall, ... to be condemned or saved during the GT.

I understand.  However, that widow and leper have already been ‘sealed’ by God. They are predestined to hear gospel.  They were already God’s people but they might not realize their 'salvation' until sometime during famine.  That is one of the reasons why I believe there are many Elects that are already sealed of God, but does not realize their salvation until sometime after the end-time Great Tribulation already started.  You see, I do no think God needs wait until the last elect on earth to confess that Jesus is Lord before Great Tribulation can begins.

Peace,
Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Lee

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2006, 12:35:00 PM »
Here's Revelation 7...where are the verses which prove that Salvation ends when Great Tribulation begins? From what I can see, this chapter proves that Salvation will continue until Judgement Day.

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2006, 01:34:56 PM »
Quote
Here's Revelation 7...where are the verses which prove that Salvation ends when Great Tribulation begins? From what I can see, this chapter proves that Salvation will continue until Judgement Day.

i have suggested taht you please try read Tony Warren's study on Revelation 7 at http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev7.html

And then read about Two Witnesses at http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev11.html

If you have any more questions, ask.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2006, 02:15:35 PM »
Quote
Not to mention that everyone thinks that you are "backslidden" because you no longer go to a church building. People in our town think we are weirdos!!

  ;) Welcome to the club, Lee.  Wicked people in the church, especially some of our family and friends, will think we are weirdoes for leaving their church because they did not think there is anything wrong with their church or their doctrine. Here we prophesy against them: 

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Here we read that their enemies ‘beheld them’.  Think about it, the wicked see these saints who they thought were ‘dead’, now begin to prophecy again.  We started to prophecy against church for homosexuality, women in position, speaking in tongues, lying signs and wonders, etc.  Two Witnesses (believers) stood up from these streets and leave Jerusalem, and the wicked of the city are upset, offended, angry and fear this mobilization.  This is their fear of what is going on, and the fear of wicked men usually manifests itself in reviling, speaking evil against the saints, and in unrighteous anger.

Luke 21:25 "And there shall be signs in the Sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon earth distress of nations, with Perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 "and men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

The sea is symbolic of the unsaved world. The Church was fishers of men from the sea (world). The sea and waves roaring illustrates the world is full of iniquity and is 'attacking' churches. Remember armies surrounding the city?  There is distress and anguish as the unsaved are in a state of quandary, confused over evil of the world. And the Church has no answers because they have forsaken the God of the Bible, and are themselves running to and fro seeking the Word, but unable to find it. They will appease the unsaved by preaching whatever they wants to hear. They will add secular music in their churches, blasmphasy holiday play or movies just to increase their memberships with people who are really not saved.  The city echoing the noise of iniquity in the sea. This is the fear in the enemies of the true Church. There is judgment upon this people, because this is the vengeance of the lord ushering in the coming of that which is perfect or complete.

Luke 21:22 "for these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

It's the days of vengeance and the completion of all that was written. It is a time of God's judgment upon them for ‘killing the saints’, for spiritually shedding blood by their hatred. When the believers leave the Church, their works leave with them, so there is no waters of life left in the church. The church’s water became a wormwood.  Thus is how city shall be left desolate. The people within the city will receive the mark of the beast - like the rest of the world!  That is why God warned us not to come back to theses church or we will end up like Lot’s Wife:

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There will be no clothes of righteous to be found at church anymore. You will not find Truth in Church anymore.  They will tell you that there is Christ in the desert (signifies churches where there is no water of life), do not believe them. There is now no more ministering of God in the Holy Temple. Just as Jerusalem of the Old Testament fell, so Jerusalem of the New is under the same judgment for her spiritual fornication and abominations.

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Wanted to be clear; the Spirit of Life (Revelation 11:11) is not the Holy Spirit, but is a "spiritual awakening" to understanding the abomination of desolation going on today? If so, like I said earlier, that Spirit of Life will enter into each of God's elect in His own timing.

Since the believers already have Holy Spirit within them, the Spirit of Life is “spiritual awakening” that the Holy Spirit will reveal our eyes to see at an appointed time.

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It really is more of a time of fellowship, edifying each other, praying for each other, eating a meal together, taking communion, etc
.

It is okay to have fellowship with same-minded Christians and stay steadfast to God’s Word until the End. Just make sure not to take partake of Babylon’s plagues. 

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What did you mean when you said that the 2 witnesses empowered by the Spirit of Life will not be to bring a word of salvation but a blowing of the trumpet? Is the blowing of the trumpet is for us to warn and share with people who are stilll in church buildings?

The Spirit of Life that resurrected Two Witnesses signifies that they are empowered to prophesy again , this time judgment against the city.  Not salvation.  You will prophesy to them but majority of them will not listen just like Lot’s son in laws when he warned him about coming destruction upon the city

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Can you better explain what you wrote about that in your reply because I am not quite clear what our love (agape) waxes cold over or for?

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The love for God or Truth will grow cold. It is because they will not be interested by our witnessing of truth in the city (church). They prefer to contiune with their false doctrines.  If that is what they want, then God will send them strong delusion (lies) that they will believe in their own false doctrines. That is why God wants us to come out of that church to avoid plagues that is about to befallen upon the city.   

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Last question. How do we know that Martin Luther, John Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards, etc. did not understand the abomination of desolation? Did you mean that to them it was the Catholic Church and that was it?? Did they not write much about end times, because I know that under commentaries by John Calvin, he has none on the book of Revelation.

Satan was not loosened at time of Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc.  Therefore the abomination of desolation did not happen during their time. Yes there were variety of abominations in the church but true believers reformed and continued with their church works.  They still had a long way to go before end time actually comes.  The gospel has not yet reached to the ends of the earth.     

Regarding my chart, I am not here to predict a date with my chart. Not at all!  What I was hoping to show readers how the great tribulation breaks down.  You will see that the 5th trumpet is 1st woe,  6th trumpet is 2nd woe,  7th trumpet (last trump) is third woe.  The first one being 1260th day, the second one on 1290th day. The third one will be on 1335th day.  You will be able to understand how great tribulation evolves over a short span of time.

Peace,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

abbiegirl

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2006, 03:44:09 PM »
Quote
I'm a long-time supporter of WyCliff Bible Translators and know there are yet many parts of the world that the Gospel hasn't reached.
I realize this does not necessarily mean that God has elect in all these areas, but I think that this still needs to be taken into consideration in gauging how close we are to the end.

Judy, I personally don't believe that we need to figure out whether the Gospel has reached every part of the world to determine if we are in Great Tribulation or not. 


Hi Erik,

    I have been following along through this thread and can see that you are a very serious student of eschatology. I mean no disrespect at all, just have honest questions....hope you don't mind. This statement  that Judy made concerning unreached people groups in the world; then your reply kind of troubled me somewhat. May I ask if you are concerned about these people, are we to pray for them and all the world, continuing to minister and be a witness in the world following the Great Commission? I may have misunderstood your answer to her so if I did you can set me straight and I will listen to you. Thanks for sharing so much that you have learned.

                                                                                                          abbiegirl

andreas

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2006, 03:49:10 PM »
 <<<The standing up of the Witnesses upon their feet illustrates a Spiritual awakening of the faithful witnesses in the Churches by the Spirit of life. The symbology of feet in scripture points to the means of mobilization. God often uses it to signify those who are 'sent.' When these dead stand upon their feet, it is an illustration that they who were once silenced, are mobilized and empowered by the Spirit to again declare God's Word. But it is not a word of Salvation like that man from Alameda suggested, but of blowing of the trumpet. In other words, a word of warning that desolation is nigh.>>>

To stand upon the feet means to proclaim the gospel. God is commanding us to send forth the gospel

1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;
10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Ezekiel 2.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26.

We are to proclaim the gospel, the rest is up to God.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? 2 Corinthians 2.

andreas.



  
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Lee

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2006, 04:28:25 PM »
Not to mention that everyone thinks that you are "backslidden" because you no longer go to a church building. People in our town think we are weirdos!!

Lee

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2006, 04:33:03 PM »
Can you give me some examples of how we much in our home church be doing something to partake in the plagues of Babylon? I sure wouldn't want to do that. Sad I don't want to sin against a Holy God and I want to be obedient to His Word.

Pamela

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2006, 05:09:33 PM »
Hi Erik,



Quote
Erik, this does not make sense.  If the two Witnesses were brought back to life, wouldn't they be able to witness again? !!!  They were silenced (dead), and now they are alive, meaning that they no longer are DEAD.  Meaning that they can again witness? 

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

God empowered His Church with the Word of Life at the Cross. They started in Jerusalem until they went to the ends of the earth. It took them 2,000 years to accomplish this.  But when God see that He have finished sealing the last person he intended to save, our testimony is finished.  Then the beast come out of the bottomless pit will overcome and kill us in the city (church).  The believers are silenced by growing apostasy in the church.  The Word of Life no longer go forth in the city. They will be dead in the city for three and half days – a period of apostasy before God intervenes.  After three and half days of this death sleep in the city, the Spirit of life enters into these witnesses  and they stood up.  We need to understand that these witnesses were not literally dead, and so this is not a literal rising up from the dead. Nor were they spiritually dead (Since they are already saved).  So the killing of the Witnesses both in this passage, and in Revelation 13, signify only the silencing of the Word of life which they were bringing. In that sense only were they killed, and so in that sense only do they 'stand up' from that sense of death in these streets.


Ok, I am not arguing the fact that the Two Witnesses are killed (silenced) in the church.  I am saying that the first half of the 70th week is 3 1/2 days right?  It starts at the cross.  

Daniel 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the "midst" of the week, there will be the abomination of desolation, the loosening of Satan, AND the Two Witnesses will be killed right?  If you notice that it says even UNTIL the consummation.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

What 3 1/2 days are we talking about?  We are talking about the second half of the week.  After the second 3 1/2 days, the Spirit of Life entered into them.  

Remember that the abomination of desolation lasts 3 days and a half?  The Witnesses were killed at the beginning of the 3 days and a half right?  And they came back to life at the END of the 3 days and a half, which means they were killed for the whole GT and not when they realized that they were finally in a church that was desolate.

Your chart shows that they come to life in the MIDDLE of the 3 1/2 days, and not at the end of them, like the Bible says.

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The standing up of the Witnesses upon their feet illustrates a Spiritual awakening of the faithful witnesses in the Churches by the Spirit of life. The symbology of feet in scripture points to the means of mobilization. God often uses it to signify those who are 'sent.' When these dead stand upon their feet, it is an illustration that they who were once silenced, are mobilized and empowered by the Spirit to again declare God's Word. But it is not a word of Salvation like that man from Alameda suggested, but of blowing of the trumpet. In other words, a word of warning that desolation is nigh.

You just told me that the Witnesses were not spiritually dead, but now you are telling me that they are "awaken spiritually".  I know what "feet" means in the scripture, and I thank you for showing me anyway.  I need to know more about symbolism.  But again, they come to life AFTER 3 1/2 days are up, which means when all is over...done...when the Lord comes back.  Also I know that we are to continue to preach the word until the Lord comes back.  I do believe, now that I am thinking about it, that it will be just like in the days of Noah, when the word was a "warning" maybe of judgement, instead of salvation?  

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Go ahead and read ten virgins parable in your bible and you will see that when the midnight cry is made, the salvation will have ended, the testimony finished, and the buyers and sellers are marked of the beast.  Clearly, when the cry is made to come out, it is not the end of the world yet, it will be a short period of separation, the precursor to Christ's second advent. The wise virgins testify to the foolish one to go out to those who sell and buys.  Not a testimony of salvation, inside or outside church!

Oh Erik...I do not see the midnight cry as the cry to come out.  I see it as the cry of the Bridegroom calling His Bride.

John 5:28-29  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 12:40  Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Revelation 19:7-9  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Matthew 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The 5 wise virgins made themselves ready for the Bridegroom.  The other 5 were not ready, and the Son of man came, when they weren't ready.

Matthew 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

THe Bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage!  THEN, the door was shut. I don't see this meaning that there was more time after this.  

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I am sorry to say but this guy from Alameda has this wishful thinking that God will resume Salvation program through depart out Saints outside fallen churches.  That is not what Bible teaches.

Agreed.  

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The church has already been empowered by Holy Ghost to bring Salvation to the ends of the earth as long as God was sealing His People.  Salvation ceases when the last person in God’s family has been sealed. No where in the Scripture that says God will resume sealing or save people again after a period of silence.  Not especially when Satan is being loosened and brings all people of the world against church!  That does not make any sense!  Remember God has bound a strong man (Satan) at the Cross so that His church can be built out of the world for the next 2,000 years.  After God have finish sealing his people, Satan will be loosened. It does not makes sense that  we can save many more people outside church with Satan being loosened because the unsaved world was always in Satan’s rule.  Think about it, if God wants to resume salvation outside church, He would have to bind Satan once again in order to resume salvation to people outside church.  

Agree here too.  I think that has to do with them separating the 144,00 and the great multitude.  

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The another thing to consider about that man in Alameda.  He developed a Latter Rain Salvation doctrine because he does not accept the biblical facts that there will be no more salvation after God has finished sealing ALL of His people.  People like him are concerned about their family, friend, and young children’s salvation, so they developed a doctrine that they wanted to believe God is not finished with salvation plan for people as long as they are ‘outside’ the church.   Sorry but the hard fact is that it is a wishful thinking.

Yes I know Erik.  My dad is a follower of this group.  :(  When I told him that there would be no more salvation because ALL the elect would be sealed before the loosening of Satan, he got upset.  It is almost like the "age of accountability".  People make things up to make us feel better.  But that is not truth.

Anyway, I think we almost are on the same track, except the times concerning the Two witnesses.

God bless,
Pam













judykanova

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2006, 10:49:50 PM »

{I'm a long-time supporter of WyCliff Bible Translators and know there are yet many parts of the world that the Gospel hasn't reached.
I realize this does not necessarily mean that God has elect in all these areas, but I think that this still needs to be taken into consideration in gauging how close we are to the end. }

Judy, I personally don't believe that we need to figure out whether the Gospel has reached every part of the world to determine if we are in Great Tribulation or not.  Jesus already instructed….

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

You will know when you do see abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, if we have spiritual eyes to see.  We do not need to worry about few people in remote areas of the earth whether they have heard about gospel or not. No way will we ever know about it just like we have no idea when God have finished sealing his people, when great tribulation officially starts, or when Jesus will return. We only see the signs and Jesus already told us about these in Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, etc.  

Erik,

I provided two passages of Scripture  and even in the one you've given above, God declares that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."  

So this is not something we can deem unimportant or lightly gloss over.  As stated earlier, it should be taken into consideration along with everything else the Bible teaches about end times, including the teaching about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place which is not the only sign the Lord provides us with.


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{Mat 24:22  
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If indeeed salvation ends at the point of GT, and this period of time is of sufficient length that many true believers will physically die, but is not so long that "no flesh be saved", then this also suggest that the true Gospel shall be very scarce.  This is further supported by Scriptures that speak of a "famine" of salvation and of hearing the Word of God: }

Correct. That is why it will be a great tribulation unlike the beginning of the world or shall be and will be 'short period'.  The True Gospel during the 'end-time' great tribulation will be very scarce to save anyone, therefore there is a spiritual famine in the land.  However God will have His people to prophesy against what is going on in the church.  I personally believe it has already happened.

I think my main point/question here may have been missed.  I asked whether or not this spiritual famine will be such that the true gospel and sound teaching on radio broadcast, web sites, TV,  etc. will virtually cease to exist,  because only those who have taken the mark of the beast can "buy and sell".   This still an open question.


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{Luk 4:25-27
25  But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26  But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27  And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Could it be that this 3 1/2 years when heaven as shut up symbolizes this period of GT?  If so, it is interesting (and important) to note that despite this, Elias went to and saved one widow and one leper -- each symbolizing the elect.  God seems to always allow for a small remant even during times of His wrath.  This is one of several reason why I think we need to humbly say it's strictly God's business as to whether or not He allows a church or individuals to stand or fall, ... to be condemned or saved during the GT. }

I understand.  However, that widow and leper have already been ‘sealed’ by God. They are predestined to hear gospel.  They were already God’s people but they might not realize their 'salvation' until sometime during famine.  That is one of the reasons why I believe there are many Elects that are already sealed of God, but does not realize their salvation until sometime after the end-time Great Tribulation already started.  You see, I do no think God needs wait until the last elect on earth to confess that Jesus is Lord before Great Tribulation can begins.

Yes,  these two were saved/sealed/elected.... however you want to describe it, it means the same.  

I'm glad you understood the point I was trying to make about not putting restrictions on God as to if/when He chooses to save a person, which this passage of Scripture suggests could occur even during GT.  Therefore people with young ones should put their trust in God's great and perfect mercy and justice during this period as in all other times.

God Bless,
judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2006, 11:46:55 PM »
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I have been following along through this thread and can see that you are a very serious student of eschatology. I mean no disrespect at all, just have honest questions....hope you don't mind. This statement  that Judy made concerning unreached people groups in the world; then your reply kind of troubled me somewhat. May I ask if you are concerned about these people, are we to pray for them and all the world, continuing to minister and be a witness in the world following the Great Commission? I may have misunderstood your answer to her so if I did you can set me straight and I will listen to you. Thanks for sharing so much that you have learned.

                                                                                                          abbiegir


Judy and Abbiegirl,

Sorry if the tone of my response to Judy sounds harsh. I did not mean to say that we should careless whether the gospel has reached to all of the earth or not.  What I was trying to say is that I do not agree that we should use ‘gospel outreach’ statistics to determine if we has entered into Great Tribulation or not.  I don't think we will be able to know WHEN Two Witnesses have finished with their testimony as far as the spreading of Gospel is concerned, anyway. I do agree that we always pray that God's Will be done and wish that all people in the world will be able to hear the Gospel.

Hope this helps,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2006, 11:52:28 PM »
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No problem, your conclusions are of no value to me...only The Word of God, sir.

JMB,

If you value the Word of God. It also means that you should also value being honest.  So let me ask you a honest question that deserve a honest answer.  Are you Jim BearChild whom we have banned a while ago?

Peace,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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