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Author Topic: What is the Great Tribulation?  (Read 28868 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2006, 11:10:35 PM »
Quote
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12

I am curious, Andreas, when will Archangel Michael (Jesus) stand up?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Raybob

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2006, 11:15:22 PM »
I see the "Great" in "great tribulation" as being in length of time.  It's been a "great" tribulation beginning back with Steven the first martyr of Acts 7 up until today.  I don't know how it could be any worse than in the first century when people were being beheaded for the name of Jesus.

Raybob

andreas

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2006, 12:31:22 AM »
<<<I am curious, Andreas, when will Archangel Michael (Jesus) stand up?>>>

I believe Daniel ,Jeremiah and Matthew all talk about the great tribulation,and the end times. If that is the case, then immediately after the tribulation.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.Daniel 12.

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.Jeremiah 30.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

DIpraise100

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 09:15:33 AM »
Certainly ALL of God's elect will suffer tribulation:                                                                                                                                 Joh 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Ac 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
                           But would you not say that GREAT tribulation is not that same tribulation?  Would not the GREAT tribulation be at a different time and of a different aspcet?  Tribulation has always been but it comes from the WORLD, does not GREAT tribulation have to do with the Church, though it be the apostate Church?                                                                                                                                     Re 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
                                                                                                  Are not the Great Multitude those Saints that came out of that time of GREAT tribulation?                                                                                                                                                                                             Re 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
.                                                                                             Please bear with me for I am just beginning to study Rev. and end time.  Now that I have posted Re 2:22 it has me wondering--I had before understood that it was the Saints that SUFFER the GREAT tribulation but does not this verse tell us it is the APOSTATE CHURCH that will suffer GREAT tribulaltion and the Saints not so much as suffering this great tribulation but going through this time period and coming through it. How do you see this verse?    Also, don't be offended if I don't answer a question because I very seldom make a post-sorry, that is just how I am.  But I am here reding and listening.   Dianna

Bradley

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2006, 02:04:18 PM »
>>>Certainly ALL of God's elect will suffer tribulation:<<<

Agreed!

>>>But would you not say that GREAT tribulation is not that same tribulation?  Would not the GREAT tribulation be at a different time and of a different aspcet?  Tribulation has always been but it comes from the WORLD, does not GREAT tribulation have to do with the Church, though it be the apostate Church?<<<

I think every reference of "tribulation" needs to be addressed in context.  The object of the tribulation could be different depending on the context of the passage.  In some cases tribulation comes from God.

>>>Please bear with me for I am just beginning to study Rev. and end time.  Now that I have posted Re 2:22 it has me wondering--I had before understood that it was the Saints that SUFFER the GREAT tribulation but does not this verse tell us it is the APOSTATE CHURCH that will suffer GREAT tribulaltion and the Saints not so much as suffering this great tribulation but going through this time period and coming through it.<<<

Revelation 2:22-23
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Within this context, I would agree the object of the great tribulation is the apostate church, but I am not sure we can target when this tribulation will occur.  I think this passage is referring to the great white thone judgment when each person is judged according to their works.

Bradley

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2006, 12:09:10 PM »
Out of curiously, I decided to post a poll here to see how many of our members believe whether we are in end-time Great Tribulation period after we have discussed many subjects in the past few years and based on what we have heard in the world.  Tell us why you think we are in end-time Great Tribulation. If not, tell us why.

Thanks,
Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pamela

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2006, 02:26:16 PM »
Hi Erik,

That is THEE question of the year!  I believe that if we are not in the GT yet, we are very close.  I do believe that the Lord will reveal it to us though, through His word, and not by visiting neighborhood churches.  How can I go to all the churches in the world to find out if the abomination of desolation has taken place?  I believe it is by understanding the end time scriptures that the Lord is opening up to us.  I myself am not totally convinced that we are in it ....yet.  But in Mt 24 is says:

Matthew 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So we will know when it starts.  Maybe not right away, but we will know.  Otherwise how would we know to flee?  Also, it says "whoso readeth, let him understand".  So yes, I believe that it could be by revelation through the scriptures that were once sealed, that are now being made clearer (unsealed) at this time.

Also, He commands us to "come out".

Revelation 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

How are we going to come out if we do not know?

Daniel 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

God will not leave us without warning.  He is going to let us know when it is time to come out.  Maybe that is what is happneing now?  I know alot of believers are coming out of their churches.  Is this the reason?  I just think that it will quite clear that Satan is ruling in the churches, and that there will be other signs to warn us, but mostly through scripture.

Amos 3:7  Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


Just my two cents,

Pam





Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2006, 02:40:57 PM »
Quote
I don't know and I don't think we will be able to know the exact day and time/ year that the GT begins or has begun.

It is true that we do not know the "exact time" when Great Tribulation has begun and that is not in debate.  However, we can't assume or need to worry whether we are in Great Tribulation or not because of SIGNS.

Quote
If it has been in the last 10-20 years, then I must not be born again, because I was born again in January of 1999; almost 8 years ago. I know that I am born again so my answer to that selection would be "no."

Appears to me that your answer is based on the timing of your own salvation, instead of the signs of the Great Tribulation.  That is not the purpose of this poll.   

Quote
We keep telling the gospel and praying for God to save His elect; otherwise, we are not praying in line with God's will, because we are never commanded to stop praying for people or sharing the gospel.

Who told you to stop praying or stop sharing the gospel. You must misunderstood this with former members who used to teach this on this forum.  We are to contiune testify Gospel until the end. We only discern the signs of the Great Tribulation because we will KNOW that Jesus' coming is right at the door.   

Quote
What purpose would it serve for us to really know whether or not the GT has begun??

What did God say about this?  Didn't God said, "If you see abomination of desolation in the church, leave.",  "Come out of her, my people...",  "standing afar off, mourning over burning city". "Two Witnesses stood up and ascend to heaven (flee to God in mountain).  And you don't think these have purpose for us?  Humm!

Quote
How would it change your walk with Christ??

Nothing. Great Tribualtion will not change my (or anyone's) walk with Christ.  You keep WATCHING and faithfully witnessing with Scripture on anything. 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2006, 03:02:29 PM »
Quote
That is THEE question of the year!  I believe that if we are not in the GT yet, we are very close.  I do believe that the Lord will reveal it to us though, through His word, and not by visiting neighborhood churches.  How can I go to all the churches in the world to find out if the abomination of desolation has taken place?  I believe it is by understanding the end time scriptures that the Lord is opening up to us.  I myself am not totally convinced that we are in it ....yet.  But in Mt 24 is says:

Matthew 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So we will know when it starts.  Maybe not right away, but we will know.  Otherwise how would we know to flee?  Also, it says "whoso readeth, let him understand".  So yes, I believe that it could be by revelation through the scriptures that were once sealed, that are now being made clearer (unsealed) at this time.

In Matthew 24:15-16, God clearly said "whoso readeth, let him understand:", not "whoso visits every church, let him understand".  You do NOT have to visit every church in the wold to determine if we are in Great Tribulation or not. That is not how we can discern the abomiantion of desolation.  Jesus is telling YOU that when YOU see abomination of desolation in your church, flee.  Only Holy Spirit will reveal it to you.  Not me, not Tony Warren, not Harold Camping.  God did not have EVERY ELECT to understand or discern the abomination of desolation on the very first day of Great Tribulation.  Some will discern it before others and only God knows when all of his people comes out.  I will say this again, it does not mean that we  need to figure out the exact time when God finished sealing his people, when Satan have been loosend, when Great Tribulation will start, when abomiatnion of desolation offically started, or even when Jesus will return.  We do not NEED to know the dates and times! We only are allowed to see the SIGNS of times.

I have stated my position before that it is my oponion that it is biblically impossible for us to discern the abomination of desolation BEFORE the pouring of Spirit of Life upon Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 when they were able to stand up from that death in churches  and come out.

Quote
Daniel 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

God will not leave us without warning.  He is going to let us know when it is time to come out.  Maybe that is what is happneing now?  I know alot of believers are coming out of their churches.  Is this the reason?  I just think that it will quite clear that Satan is ruling in the churches, and that there will be other signs to warn us, but mostly through scripture.

Exactly.  God did not plan to let every of his elects to know at the 'same time' to come out.  Some will notice and depart before us. Some are departing now. And maybe there will be few left to depart out.  We do not know exactly but we do see the SIGNS.   Yes, I can see that there are some believers who are coming o ut of their churches.  Some are still looking for another church. Some reported that they could not find  faithful church in their cities.  We are seeing the fall of the church, even on TV.   Homosexuals, women in leaderships, lying signs and wonders, false prophets, properisty, healing ministries, compromise gospel to appease worldly members, etc.  If it is not Great Tribulation, I don't know what is!

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sandy

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2006, 03:18:43 PM »
Greetings Erik,

Your poll did not list when I, and I believe others, believe "great tribulation" started.  Notice I did not say "THE" great tribulation.  I believe that the Bible is very clear that we have been living in a time described throughout Scripture as great tribulation, affliction, sorrows, etc. and this time will continue with greater and greater intensity until the Lord returns on the clouds of glory. 

My answer...we have been in great tribulation since the cross of Christ.

Many Blessings,
Sandy   

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2006, 04:18:50 PM »
Quote
believe that the Bible is very clear that we have been living in a time described throughout Scripture as great tribulation, affliction, sorrows, etc. and this time will continue with greater and greater intensity until the Lord returns on the clouds of glory.

Knowing about your position beforehand, my poll clearly talked about 'end-time great tribulation period'. Yes God did say that there will be great tribulation period, unlike the beginning of the world or shall be AFTER God have finished sealing all of his people, AFTER Satan have been loosened from bottomless pit, AFTER Two Witnesses have finished their testimony, and when God will judge Church (Babylon) where we stand afar off mourning over the city.       
"
All of God's Elects, from Abel to Last Elect suffered "great tribulation" of Revelation 7, however, the last of the elects will be alive to witness the 'end time Great Tribulation period" Jesus specifically warned about in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2nd thess II, etc.  The Great Tribulation that Jesus specifically described in olivet discoure did not start at the Cross when Satan was still bound for the next 2,000 years.  Abomination of Desolation did not start at the Cross. The spew of frogs coming out of dragon, beast and false prophets did not happen at the Cross (becasue Satan would have to be release from the bottomless pit first!).  You have to undersatnd that the church barely started at the Cross with Satan being loosened. They have long way to go to spoil the House of Satan (world) until God see the last Elect being sealed, THEN a unique end time great tribulation period will begin.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2006, 12:01:31 AM »
Quote
Your assumption is not found in the Bible, as far as I can see.  But maybe I haven't read it carefully enough.

JMB, you are very new here. You just only registered two days ago.  I strongly suggest that you first search through the forum and find more specific information you want to know more about.  Or may I suggest that you read bible studies that Tony Warren, a moderator of this forum, wrote on his website. You can find it at: 

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology.html

I am sorry but I do not have time to explain everything about Great Tribulation each time a "newbie" show up and ask questions without knowing where I come from.

Peace,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pamela

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2006, 01:26:07 AM »
Quote from Pamela

That is THEE question of the year!  I believe that if we are not in the GT yet, we are very close.  I do believe that the Lord will reveal it to us though, through His word, and not by visiting neighborhood churches.  How can I go to all the churches in the world to find out if the abomination of desolation has taken place?  I believe it is by understanding the end time scriptures that the Lord is opening up to us.  I myself am not totally convinced that we are in it ....yet.  But in Mt 24 is says:

Matthew 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
So we will know when it starts.  Maybe not right away, but we will know.  Otherwise how would we know to flee?  Also, it says "whoso readeth, let him understand".  So yes, I believe that it could be by revelation through the scriptures that were once sealed, that are now being made clearer (unsealed) at this time.

Erik said:

In Matthew 24:15-16, God clearly said "whoso readeth, let him understand:", not "whoso visits every church, let him understand".  You do NOT have to visit every church in the wold to determine if we are in Great Tribulation or not.

I said:

Ok, so we agree on this.



Erik said:

 That is not how we can discern the abomiantion of desolation.  Jesus is telling YOU that when YOU see abomination of desolation in your church, flee.  Only Holy Spirit will reveal it to you.

I said:

Yes, by the Holy Spirit "through" the scriptures, amen.


Erik said:

Not me, not Tony Warren, not Harold Camping.  God did not have EVERY ELECT to understand or discern the abomination of desolation on the very first day of Great Tribulation.

I said:

That I do not know, because it says nothing about it in the Bible that I know of.


Erik said:

  Some will discern it before others and only God knows when all of his people comes out.


I said:

True
 

Erik said:

 I will say this again, it does not mean that we  need to figure out the exact time when God finished sealing his people, when Satan have been loosend, when Great Tribulation will start, when abomiatnion of desolation offically started, or even when Jesus will return.  We do not NEED to know the dates and times! We only are allowed to see the SIGNS of times.

I said:

I never said we did.  In fact the one thing I do not agree about with this man's teaching in Alameda California, is his date setting.  We will see the signs of the times through scripture.  God did not put His warnings in the Bible for no reason.


Erik said:

I have stated my position before that it is my oponion that it is biblically impossible for us to discern the abomination of desolation BEFORE the pouring of Spirit of Life upon Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 when they were able to stand up from that death in churches  and come out.

I said:

Now I seem to have trouble with this, because in Revelations 11, it says that the two witnesses lie dead in the street for 3 1/2 days, which is the WHOLE GT.


Revelation 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


Daniel 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Here we have one week.  In the midst of the week (end of first 3 1/2 days) and the beginning of the second half (3 1/2 days), He causes the sacrifice of oblation to cease.  This means that the abomination of desolation is in place, Satan is loosed and the witnesses are killed during the second 3 1/2 days. This is for the WHOLE GT and not part of it that the witnesses are killed.  I don't see where it says that they "come to life" any other time.  Can you show me how they come to life during the 3 1/2 days?

Satan will be loosed for 42 months.

Revelation 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.  42 months equals 3 1/2 days


Revelation 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Time, times and an half equals 3 1/2 days.  So how do the witnesses that are dead 3 1/2 days, which we see is the WHOLE GT, come to life and "see" the abomination of desolation?  I don't understand this.

I said:
Quote
Daniel 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
God will not leave us without warning.  He is going to let us know when it is time to come out.  Maybe that is what is happneing now?  I know alot of believers are coming out of their churches.  Is this the reason?  I just think that it will quite clear that Satan is ruling in the churches, and that there will be other signs to warn us, but mostly through scripture.

Erik said:

Exactly.  God did not plan to let every of his elects to know at the 'same time' to come out.  Some will notice and depart before us. Some are departing now. And maybe there will be few left to depart out.  We do not know exactly but we do see the SIGNS.   Yes, I can see that there are some believers who are coming o ut of their churches.  Some are still looking for another church. Some reported that they could not find  faithful church in their cities.  We are seeing the fall of the church, even on TV.   Homosexuals, women in leaderships, lying signs and wonders, false prophets, properisty, healing ministries, compromise gospel to appease worldly members, etc.  If it is not Great Tribulation, I don't know what is!

I said:

Erik, I agree with almost everything you said up above.  The one thing that I do not see yet is that it will be a time like NEVER before.  I mean, I know that there is apostasy in the church.  That we can see just by what you wrote up above, but is it a time like NEVER before?  Of course knowing that there will be no more salvation once it has started, would make it like a "time never before" maybe?  What do you think?



God bless,
Pam





judykanova

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2006, 01:35:21 AM »
Hi Erik,

I think we are close to the great tribulation, but are not yet there.  But this assumes I properly understand the following Scriptures:


Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mar 13:10  And the gospel must first be published among all nations.


I'm a long-time supporter of WyCliff Bible Translators and know there are yet many parts of the world that the Gospel hasn't reached.
I realize this does not necessarily mean that God has elect in all these areas, but I think that this still needs to be taken into consideration in gauging how close we are to the end.


And this passage raises a BIG question mark for me...

Rev 13:17  
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Does this mean that when we reach the point of GT, there will be virtually no place -- on radio, on internet or anywhere --
where the true Gospel can still be found, because true belivers who sponsored these places refused to take the mark of the beast?

This passage raises a similar question...

Mat 24:22  
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


If indeeed salvation ends at the point of GT, and this period of time is of sufficient length that many true believers will physically die, but is not so long that "no flesh be saved", then this also suggest that the true Gospel shall be very scarce.  This is further supported by Scriptures that speak of a "famine" of salvation and of hearing the Word of God:

Luk 4:25-27
25  But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26  But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27  And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.


Could it be that this 3 1/2 years when heaven as shut up symbolizes this period of GT?  If so, it is interesting (and important) to note that despite this, Elias went to and saved one widow and one leper -- each symbolizing the elect.  God seems to always allow for a small remant even during times of His wrath.  This is one of several reason why I think we need to humbly say it's strictly God's business as to whether or not He allows a church or individuals to stand or fall, ... to be condemned or saved during the GT.

Rom 9:15  
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.



I believe the signs of the end are primarily given so that true believers are not bewildered or surprised by worsening spiritual conditions in both the world and the church.  I am concerned that there may be an undue amount of attention given to when the GT begins or ends, such that it shifts focus away from the ultimate question ... namely, looking in the mirror and asking, "Am I prepared to met God if He were to return today?"

Jam 4:12-15
12  There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15  For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.



Although the Great Tribulation is depicted as the worse period in history in terms of spiritual decay and famine, we have an even GREATER hope in the midst of it:

Rom 8:35-39
35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Amen!

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2006, 01:55:33 AM »
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The reason why I said, "What purpose would it serve for us to really know whether or not the GT has begun" is because if we are in the GT, and our wallk doesn't change, and God brings His people out of the church buildings (each one in God's timing), and we know we are always to watch and be ready for His return, what do we do differently? Are we suppose to warn people God brings into our path that no more people will be born again and that judment is coming? Do you go around telling people that and is anyone else on this forum doing that?(Like Jeremiah in the streets?)

Okay I will explain.

Take a look at Two Witnesses in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two Witnesses represents God’s Elects. The great city represents Church wherever God’s Elects are.  They are being killed by beast. In other words, the believers can no longer bring the gospel of life in this great city (church), which has become spiritually Sodom and Egypt.  So their witnesses have been so effectively silenced in the church by many false teachers.  It is like they are dead!  You see, it is getting harder and harder to witness Truth in the church where abomination to God is getting as bad as Sodom. And that church is coming back in spiritual bondage to Satan just like the house of Egypt. Those professed Christians in the church will have no regard of our witness of Truth anymore. That is what God means by they will not suffer Two Witnesses’ dead bodes to be put in graves. They don’t care. They only care about what they like to hear.  They like to exchange gifts (false doctrines) and rejoice over Witnesses of Truth, because they no longer be able to effectively testify Truth against them in church. It is because the church are getting more and more apostasy than ever. It will continue until it reach to the point of ‘desolation’ (abomination of desolation) when God will call his people OUT of that city. 


Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

AFTER three days and a half period of Apostasy in the church where Two Witnesses were lying dead.  God ‘intervened’ to pour his Spirit of Life upon Two Witnesses.  It illustrates a Spiritual Awakening of the believers so that they will start seeing the Abomination of Desolation in the church.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

This is the only unique time when the Spirit of Life will come upon believers who will start to understand what abomination of desolation is all about. Because the judgment has come upon the city and that He wanted His people to come out of Babylon! 

Like I said before, no believer will know exact when Great Tribulation started. No believer will know exactly when the Spirit of Life comes. No believers will know when Jesus will return.  My point is that WHENEVER a believer see the abomination of desolation, he already seen a sign! That is all he needs to know concerning the coming of King Jesus Christ!

uk 21:29  And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Jesus used a literal fig tree and all other trees standing around Him and his disciples.  He was trying to explain that when you see new leaves coming out of trees, you will know for yourselves that summer is near, right?  Jesus said, “LIKEWISE”, when you see ‘these things come to pass”, eg.  False prophets, Satanic armies surrounding city (church), spiritual famine, spiritual pestilences, lying signs and wonders, abomination of desolation, all found in the churches, you will know for yourselves that Jesus’ coming is right at the door.  No date-setting is needed!

Back to Revelation 11 again:

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


Please understand this.  Before Two Witnesses were killed by the beast, they had the power to testify Salvation while Satan was bound.  But after Two Witnesses were once silenced, they will be empowered by the Spirit of Life to again declare God’s Word. But this time, it will not be a word of Salvation, but a blowing of the trumpet. We are now testifying a warning that desolation is already here. 

Two Witnesses (believers) hears a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up hither. It is same with coming out of Babylon the Great.  Come out of city and flee to Mountain.  It is not about the rapture. The rapture will not happen UNTIL third woe when the seventh angel blow the last trump. The ‘hour’ are judgment upon Babylon where tenth part of the city will be destroyed with all professed Christians inside being spiritually killed.  The remnant of verse 13 is believers who have flee from the city, affrighted of what is going on, and gave glory to God of heaven. That is when I believe we are today!  Revelation 18 confirm this!

Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

The kings of the earth represents remnant who already came out of the city.  They mourned over the city when they see the ‘smoke of her burning’, because the church no longer a representative of God. That is why we mourned.  Why, because we now know (thanks to Spirit of Life of Revelation 11) that the hour of judgment has already come upon Babylon (church).  She has become abomination of desolation itself.  She has become a home of the demons.  But she does not KNOW that she is being judged, but we do!  Therefore, we weep and mourned because no man will no longer be able to buy OUR MERCHANDISE (of salvation) anymore. 

All of this is part of second woe (Rev 11:14). And a third woe will soon come ‘quickly’. That will be when seventh trumpet will be blown and the return of our King!  That is the final woe to unbelievers. 

Okay, think about it. Is it possible for me (or anyone here) to able to understand these prophecies before the Spirit of Life come?  Doubtfully! Again, the Spirit of Life already came, but not all elects will understand this at the same time. Some people, Like Tony Warren, understood this before I do.  Tomorrow, will you?  It is a matter of time before all elects will discern this and act Accordly.  I don’t think we have much time left because I personally believe we are already between the 6th woe and the 7th woe.     
 
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fter 6 church buildings over a 7 year period, God has shown us that there is apostasy (falling away from the truth) in each one of the six we attended. We never plan on "going back into her" because we have been commanded to "come out from among her." That is why we now home/house church with 4 of us believers. But, like Pam said, we won't know if it has begun by visiting all our local churches, and how can we know about every church in the world? We know that we see "a falling away from the faith and truth" very rampant on "christian TV" and new age movements, bad is good and good is bad, this generation of youth are terrible and rebellious,false doctrines that tickle man's ears, etc. which are many Biblical signs showing that the world seems to be much in an an apostate state.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

Lee, Judea represents all churches.  If you see abomination of desolation in one of these church, what made you think there will be more faithful church else where within Judea?
You have gone to many different churches and found them to be unfaithful, then you should recognize the signs of the Great Tribulation.  It is good to have a home church of same-minded Christians as long as you keep God’s Word as the only authorization. 

We do not need to visit every church building on earth to determine if we are in Great Tribulation.  You will ‘know for yourselves’. It is the Spirit of Life that will give you a spiritual awaken.  No one leave church because I said so. No one should leave their church because Tony Warren or Harold Camping said so.  They will know for themselves and they will do what God wants them to do.  We only testify what Scripture says.

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But, does this mean that we are in the GT? Saints throughout time have always been persecuted and have gone through tribulations, like Sandy said; Hebrews 11:35-38, "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better ressurection: And others had trials of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented."( I am not by any means a preterist) But, as you said, there will be a time of GT, worse than it has ever been before. I am just not sure that it has already begun.

What do you expect?  Should the end time Great Tribulation be more like a massive blood bath where Armies of so-called world leader drag all believers out of their hiding places to be executed? Listen, I do not deny that in many parts of the world, there are still physical persecutions of believers while we are pretty much comfortable from our own homes.  Many of us wondered exactly what Jesus means by Great Tribulation period being  worse than it has ever been or shall be?

You see, the saints will suffer through trials and tribulations and "BY REMAINING FAITHFUL" in the face of degradation is how the faith and patience of the elect of God shall be proved. And when they are finally killed, God commands them to flee to the mountains as He pours out His judgment upon the unfaithful harlot. For all intents and purposes, it is a trial of faith that demonstrates the patience of the saints. Satan's ministers come as the ministers of righteousness (false prophets), and they deceive so many in the Church.  The naive or unlearned in scripture are deceived by them but the Elect will be patiently waiting upon the Lord in the faith of Christ. Even in the face of all the apologists and antagonists who think they do God service. It is our patience in waiting upon the Lord and not succumbing to these worldly pressures in the Church that will get us through this time of great tribulation. Thus God sends a strong delusion upon those naive and wicked in the Churches, unto their damnation, "because" they refused to receive the love of truth (remember they already killed Two Witnesses). Those who endure and keep the commandments of Gods to the end, shall be saved. Those who do not, will not see the kingdom of God no matter how often they attend Church, or chant that they love the brethren, or protest that they have done good works in the name of Christ. They did not have the patience of the saints, they did not wait upon the Lord, on the contrary they became sinners, lawless and disobedient, and antagonists to the truth. In fact, they do not see what is going in their church during the Great Tribulation period:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

When the time comes, there won't be any Churches with Christ therein. Didn’t God told us that in Jerusalem that ALL witnesses will be killed?  When we were told to come out of Babylon, for God is about to pour out His plagues. We do that "because" we are patiently waiting upon the Lord. In ten virgins parables, we don't need to go get oil to trim our lamps, because we have sufficient oil when the midnight call(Spirit of Life) is made.  Here is the patience and faith of the saints that allows them to endure in this time of trial, patiently waiting upon the Lord.

Matthew 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

What Love is this? Is it the type of love that is so prevalent in the Churches today? No, that love is definitely not waxing cold, it is increasing exponentially. We saw plenty of that kind of humanistic love both within and outside the Church. And also here on this forum.  But the love that is lax, the love that is growing cold is agape love, the love of God in us to earnestly desire the will of God to be done, and not our own. The "true” love of God, rather than the lip service that passes for love in many Churches. Now with God finished sealing all of His People, leaving all church to Satan’s control, no salvation possible, false prophets everywhere, love grows cold, people inside church or out hates us, we will be in great tribulation unlike the beginning of the world or shall be. 

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I am not basing my answer on my born again experience. One of your choices on the pole said something about the GT started 10/20 years ago.


Once again, I do not know exactly when Great Tribulation started. I only created this poll to see how many people think when the end-time great tribulation have started or will start.  I am sorry if this poll offended you’re as far as your salvation is concerned.  Salvation issue belong to God and I did not intend to make poll to determine your or anyone salvation.  I only understand by what God Word is said concerning His sealing of His people. 

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Do you ever wonder if Martin Luther thought the GT was back then because everything was Roman Catholic. That would look like the man of sin was sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God?? Maybe every generation of saints have thought they were in the GT or it had begun in their lifetime. Those in Thessalonica thought they had missed the "rapture."

Yes, every generation of Saints thought that they will expect Jesus’ return because they read same book like we do. But the difference is their understanding. They did not understand what abomination of desolation is. They did not understand what frogs that spew out of mouth of beast and false prophet means. They did not understand who Babylon the Great really is, instead of infamous Roman Catholics.  To God, it is not their time to understand the prophecy because it was not their time.  They had job to bring salvation to the ends of the world… until God have sealed the last person, then the time of the end comes:

Dan 12:9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

No one before ‘time of the end’ understood what abomination of desolation that Daniel wrote about because the words were closed up until the ‘time of the end’.  Because Satan was still bound at their time, many of prophecies yet to be understood.  Church still had work to do until she reaches the end of the world.   

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You listed all those things we see happening; women pastors, homosexuals, false teachers and false prophets, healing ministries, etc. and then you said , "If it is not GT, I don't know what is." Did you mean The GT or just GT or are they both the same to you? I agree that things have gotten worse, but it could get much, much worse (falling away from the truth). We may not have reached the point of the worse yet? We just don't know.

The ‘general’ great tribulation of Revelation 7 is for ALL Saints, no matter when they will be in. However, Jesus has specifically explain about a short period of time at the end called "Great Tribulation" where God will recognize as unlike the beginning of the world or shall be, where the last of God’s people will endure. It is like the end-time great tribulation within a great tribulation in the end.  Many will think we have not reached the point of the worse yet, because they might expect something usual or something really bad enough based on humanity ideas of blood bath.   

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I agree that once the last elect is sealed, the GT will begin, and we are seeing many signs, but only God will know when He has drawn all the elect out of the church buildings and He has sealed His last child.

A friendly correction here.  God will first seal his last child, then the GT will begin.  After 3-1/2 days (spiritual speaking), God will open His people's eyes to see what's going on in the church (abomination of desolation). People will start coming out of the church.  Then anytime after that, Jesus will return. 

Hope this helps,

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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