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Author Topic: What is the Great Tribulation?  (Read 28869 times)

stacia

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What is the Great Tribulation?
« on: April 16, 2003, 09:24:40 AM »
can anyone tell me whether we are in The Great Tribulation period?If we are in then is there any chance for anyone to be saved?

Sandy

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2003, 11:44:53 AM »
Stacia,

I hope you don't mind if I respond to your post by thinking mostly out loud.  I too have some troubling questions regarding the great tribulation period, and I'm wondering if perhaps none of us really understands what this represents.  

I hear again and again those who say we are now in the great tribulation and that God's salvation plan has come to an end, or rather has come to completion.  The arguments presented are very convincing and Biblically based.  

We hear from the latter rain group that now (if we are in the great tribulation) is the time when great multitudes will come to Christ.  Then we hear from the other side that once all the elect of God have been sealed (just prior to the great tribulation) then no one else can be saved.  It would seem that both sides base their opinions heavily upon Revelation 7.

My thoughts regarding Revelation 7:  The 144,000 and the great multitude are speaking of the same group of people.  They refer to the fullness of all the saints who will reside in heaven when time has been fulfilled.  The great multitude cannot be another group of people.  As the argument goes, it would make no sense to say many can be saved after the final sealing of all the elect of God.  Neither do I believe that the great multitude said to have come out of great tribulation represents only the few believers who are actually living during this time of great tribulation.  The text says "these are they" not "these are some."  I therefore believe that every single one of these saints (the great multitude which cannot be numbered) have come out of "Great Tribulation."  So, what is this great tribulation they have come out of?  It cannot be referring to the great tribulation at the end of time because the majority of these saints have long since died and gone to be with the Lord.  Is the text merely saying that every believer goes through great tribulation during their time on earth?  

When describing the time called great tribulation the Lord says: Mt. 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

If we are now experiencing the great tribulation what has changed since the beginning of time?  What is happening now that has never happened before?  Throughout the history of mankind we have always had all the things that Christ has previously described in Matthew 24.  Even silence from heaven we have experienced.  During the period of time between the Old and New Testaments we had 400 years of silence from heaven.  What could be worse?  Again, when we look back through history, we saw God destroy His creation with a great flood...what could be worse?  I'm still wondering (if we are in the great tribulation) where, and when will we experience a time like no other time in history?  

We've always had apostates.  We've always had antichrists.  We've always had false doctrine.  What's new, what's different about today?  Is it simply the fact that these things are growing worse and worse in our day?  Haven't they always been getting worse and worse?

When we read of great tribulation in the Bible it is always in association with that great and final day of the Lord known as Judgment Day.  

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  
And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  

I've asked this question before, and am still pondering it in my mind...could the great tribulation spoken of here be referring to Judgment Day?  This Day alone will be like no other time in history.  

Just a few rambling thoughts to chew on.  Let me hear the thoughts of others.

Sandy        


David Oddo

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 03:45:19 PM »
"could the great tribulation spoken of here be referring to Judgment Day?  This Day alone will be like no other time in history."

Hi Sandy,

The GT is not the final Judgment Day, although it certainly is a time of Judgment. But the final Judgment day happens when Christ returns. The days of vengeance of the GT happen before that time. With all the word says about the GT, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is not speaking of the final Judgment Day which happens when Christ returns. There is not going going to be any loosing of Satan at Judgment Day, there is not going to be any reign of the Beast  at Judgment Day, there is not going to be many false Christs with signs and wonders following at Judgment Day, etc. No, these happen during the GT. And the GT is not a "day", it is "days" -- denoting a period of time, before Christ returns..

Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Here are some things Christ said about the GT, which make it clear he was not speaking of the final Great White Throne Judgment...

Matthew 24:23-30
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


And then after all those events of the great tribulation, we see Christ then returns to the earth. And then we will see the final Judgment Day, that we read about in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20...

Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


"I'm still wondering (if we are in the great tribulation) where, and when will we experience a time like no other time in history?  

We've always had apostates.  We've always had antichrists.  We've always had false doctrine.  What's new, what's different about today?  Is it simply the fact that these things are growing worse and worse in our day?  Haven't they always been getting worse and worse?"


You are pondering what makes these days so much worse than any other time in history, and I believe the answer is obvious from the scriptures. The answer being, God is no longer saving during the GT. The summer harvest is now past, and it is the days of sword, famine and desolation upon the unsaved. All the elect are sealed before the GT, and now it's a time of unprecedented affliction for the reprobates. As we read the terrible language of the Judgments of Revelation, and look at the Judgments that are falling on the Apostates, and the entire world, how can we not see this is the worst period in human history?

Now no one can tell us Christ is over here, or Christ is over there working the work of salvation. The Great Physician has removed himself, and the pestilences of sin and sorrow abound, and there is no balm in Gilead to cure them. He is no longer healing the brokenhearted, and setting at liberty them that are bruised. And we have Satan loosed in full force, coming against all those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads, with no hope in sight. Honestly, what time period in human history could be a worst period of affliction than this? The answer is, there hasn't been.

Mark 13:18-19
And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


Luke 21:22-23
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


In Christ
Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Sandy

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2003, 02:06:27 PM »
David,

I hear what you are saying and I don't altogether disagree with the conclusions you and many others in this forum have drawn through your study of Scripture.

You state:
As we read the terrible language of the Judgments of Revelation, and look at the Judgments that are falling on the Apostates, and the entire world, how can we not see this is the worst period in human history?

Yes, I too can look all around me and see how wickedness is multiplying and growing worse and worse year after year.  But can you really say that the things we are experiencing now are worse then 400 years of silence from heaven or are they worse than total destruction of our world by the great flood?  

Perhaps I am not seeing clearly through spiritual eyes, but when I read that there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the creation of the world I have to wonder whether or not we have come to that time???

Thanks for your input.
Sandy

 

maggie

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2006, 05:25:16 PM »
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:


Considering these verses, when the great tribulation is suddenly upon us (at the commencement of the abomination of desolation in place) does the verse of matthew 24:17 mean that we need not make any physical preparations beforehand because the tribulation will be very short? Also there is a verse that says if "those days were not shortened, none would be saved, not even the elect."

I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. In the book of Revelation we are instructed over and over to "watch" and to "endure". If we were going to fly out of here, why would we be instructed to "endure"? I believe the tribulation is the final test for God's elect. "The smelting pot is for silver, but the furnace is for gold."  It is the final refinement of God's people, how they get through this one last trial.

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2006, 06:38:38 PM »
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ….And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Revelation 7:9,13,14

The 'great multitude' is unmistakingly 144,000 that John saw representing ALL Elects from the old testament to new testament. This is the language of salvation. And we know that there is no salvation possible AFTER God have sealed ALL of His people beforee Great Tribulation can start (Rev 7:3-4). Now, why did John wrote that great multitude will come out of 'great tribulation'.  What did John mean by great tribulation in Revelation 7:13-14?

Some people believe that the verses above talks about Salvation after a period of Spiritual Famine that they can save more people outside church, so they believe they are the great multitude coming out of great   tribulation.  It is biblically impossible, but I wanted to know why did John said the great multitude comes out of great tribulation?

In Him,
Erik


 
 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Bradley

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2006, 10:08:40 PM »
>>>but I wanted to know why did John said the great multitude comes out of great tribulation? <<<

Erik,

The great multitude is a picture of the True Eternal Church, the elect of God.  All of the elect have come out of the tribulation of the world into the peace of God.  We enter into the kingdom of God through much tribulation suffered by Christ, and the rest of the body.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Bradley

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2006, 11:09:31 PM »
Quote
The great multitude is a picture of the True Eternal Church, the elect of God.  All of the elect have come out of the tribulation of the world into the peace of God.  We enter into the kingdom of God through much tribulation suffered by Christ, and the rest of the body.

Hello Bradley,

I agreed. What I was trying to ask why did John considered 'tribulation of the world' to be qualified as 'great tribulation' since the dead in Christ did not experiened end time great tribulation of Matthew 24? Does it makes sense?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

andreas

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2006, 03:55:43 PM »
<<<I agreed. What I was trying to ask why did John considered 'tribulation of the world' to be qualified as 'great tribulation' since the dead in Christ did not experiened end time great tribulation of Matthew 24? Does it makes sense? >>>


Why look for a future great tribulation of the saints?  The church in China and all the Muslem countries  have had and are having their great tribulation now.  The book of Revelation testifies that all the saints will come out of great tribulation .The great tribulation is a time of persecution for the saints throughout the church age, but rises to a plateau,just before the second coming.

20.Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.John 15.

The early christians have been burned , stoned to death, cut in half, fed to the beasts, crucified,  and tortured.
 Is that not great persecution?

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.Revelation 13.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Revelation 13

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17.
 
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. matthew 24.18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. Matthew 24.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven Mark 13.

andreas.

 

kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2006, 05:27:08 PM »
Quote
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Andreas, are you saying that the great Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 is not end time Great Tribulation, but tribulation of whole church age?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2006, 05:47:55 PM »
Does anyone feel that the world we live in today is not more wicked, more anti God, more satanic, than it has ever been before? I'm just curious if anyone thinks the world was more wicked some time in the past, than it is now?

Bradley

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2006, 06:21:11 PM »
>>>I agreed. What I was trying to ask why did John considered 'tribulation of the world' to be qualified as 'great tribulation' since the dead in Christ did not experiened end time great tribulation of Matthew 24? Does it makes sense?<<<

I believe the dead in Christ do experience this tribulation by association to Christ, because they are joined to the holy temple in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:20-21
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I also believe the picture of the elect as described in Revelation 7 includes both the physical living saints and those who have died.

Bradley


Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2006, 06:36:52 PM »
Quote
Does anyone feel that the world we live in today is not more wicked, more anti God, more satanic, than it has ever been before? I'm just curious if anyone thinks the world was more wicked some time in the past, than it is now?

I thought about that too. Some people have asked me the same question.  First of all, I do not deny the fact that our bretherns in the Lord, who lived before us, have been totured and killed for the sake of Christ. Something that is not right in our modern western society. However, at that time, the church still have long way to go and what they did to our brethern were more local or regional in compare to worldwide of today.  

I personally believe that the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 is WORLDWIDE scope upon God's Elects (who are still alive on earth) AFTER Church age is completed.  I don't know about everybody, but, we all experience different forms of tribulation. In our western society, some might expereince spousal abuse for their faith. Some might experience financial hardships. Some might experience lack of love or support from their own families.  Some might expereince taunted by fellow members of their churches.  In the meanwhile, in other part of the world, where there are some cases that christians are still being physically totured or killed for their faith - something that we rarely read about in news.  From our own prespective in spoiled America, we don't think things are that bad here, so we can easily assume that we are not in 'great tribulation' yet. So, some of us wondering what will end time Great Tribulation really be like for God's people in America and the rest of the world? Well.. I don't think I have the right answer yet, however, I do see the growth of gay movement, abortions, divorces, and most of all, many people does not want to hear or accept Truth that I am trying to witness.  People lip servicing themselves that they are saved and love God, but are they really?  I hope so. They don't love the Truth. It is become more difficult to witness, even to those in the church, especially when I know there are abomination of desolation in there.  The question is, are we in the Great Tribulation today, but not neccessarily how they will affect us physically, but to our testimony?  

Anyway, the reason why I started this thread to see if anyone can explain why John wrote "Great Tribulation" where Great Multitudes will come out as if all God's people share same tribulation if not all will expereince the end time Great tribulation. Yes, it is the same tribulation with today being greater. Yet I have hard time explain why John wrote this.

What do you think?

Erik


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2006, 06:43:53 PM »
Quote
I believe the dead in Christ do experience this tribulation by association to Christ, because they are joined to the holy temple in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:20-21
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I also believe the picture of the elect as described in Revelation 7 includes both the physical living saints and those who have died.

Right, Bradley.

I think I remember posted something here about a suggestion a long time ago that the believers are part of Body of Christ. I forgot the verses for that.  Although the early believers will not live to experience Matthew 24's Great Tribulation in our time, but beacuse they are part of Christ's body, they, too shall suffer it with us together. In other word, when the great tribulation will be cut short, Christ will come with His Saints (dead in Christ) and for His Saints (alive and remain) we, as a bride of Christ, will all rise together, therefore we all 'come out of Great Tribulation'? 

That'll help?

Erik


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

andreas

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Re: What is the Great Tribulation?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2006, 10:45:28 PM »
<<<Andreas, are you saying that the great Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 is not end time Great Tribulation, but tribulation of whole church age?>>>

No, i am not saying that.What i am saying is, the great tribulation is a time of persecution  for the saints, throughtout the current church age,BUT,rising to a plateau  of unparalled persecution just before the return of Christ.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12.

It is the tribulation all believers come through.We are all members of the body of Christ,and as such we are all one, and all experience the same tribulation .

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14.

It is not an isolated event.Jesus said we will have tribulation.

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; Romans 12.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1.

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2.

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 2 Corinthians 1.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

 


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