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Author Topic: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science  (Read 35039 times)

Sue Landow

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2005, 05:15:59 AM »
Actually even the scientists are now saying that they have evidence in DNA that shows that all people are related having come from the same single source. Of course, they chalk it up to evolution, but it's interesting that years ago they were saying people evolved on many different levels and from different paths. Now they are forced to correct themselves and recognize that all people came from one single path and are related.

As for the other people, Adam and eve had many children, and the early people obviously intermarried. Because everyone on earth came from one source, Adam.
"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

judykanova

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2005, 12:10:33 PM »
Actually even the scientists are now saying that they have evidence in DNA that shows that all people are related having come from the same single source. Of course, they chalk it up to evolution, but it's interesting that years ago they were saying people evolved on many different levels and from different paths. Now they are forced to correct themselves and recognize that all people came from one single path and are related.

As for the other people, Adam and eve had many children, and the early people obviously intermarried. Because everyone on earth came from one source, Adam.


Thanks Sue for this type of information which slowly but surely exposes the farce of the evolution theory that tries to deny the Genesis account, and the fact that Adam and Eve are the first parents of all mankind.

Good, pure science will always be consistent with the teachings of the Bible. 

1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Kenneth White

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2005, 03:37:13 AM »
Sue and Judy are very correct about this. I saw this discussed on the discover channel about a year ago and decided to read up on it. Scientific research in the area of Genetics supports mitochondrial DNA, which shows that all human life evolved (evolved is their word) from one set of parents who the scientists theorize lived about 200,000 years ago. My first question would be, if they lived about 200,000 years ago, where did they come from? Did they just drop out of the sky?

Even now, many scientists are scrambling to either distance themselves from supporting this, or attempting to show how these new discoveries only mean that we evolved from a small group rather than one set of parents. They always find ways to justify throwing out sound findings when they don't like what it shows.

Now we know these parents didn't evolve, they were created and named Adam and Eve. And it wasn't 200,000 years ago either I would say. But Sue has hit the nail on the head saying this shows how they are forced to keep correcting themselves. Whenever something supports a Christian view, they chip away at it until there's nothing left. They are changing their theories all the time so as not to support any view of creation. Yet by the very facts they are coming up with, they are moving closer and closer to the creationist view. Even while finding ways to change the facts and defend evolution.

Sort of like what we've had in this forum the last few days, with some finding ways to change what the bible says, wouldn't you say? ;)
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Tony Warren

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2005, 02:48:17 PM »
My first question would be, if they lived about 200,000 years ago, where did they come from? Did they just drop out of the sky?

So many questions, so few answers from them Kenneth. The fact is, if man "didn't" come from one set of parents, then what these scientists are "incredibly" alleging, is that human beings all evolved from many different sources and path, and yet all evolved identical, the exact same way at the exact same time. How ridiculous is that? Any real scientist would call that a one in billions chance, but these imply it not only happened once, but again and again and again. That is the nature of man where the smarter he gets, the less wisdom he has.

  2nd Timothy 3:7
  • "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


Quote
>>>
Yet by the very facts they are coming up with, they are moving closer and closer to the creationist view. Even while finding ways to change the facts and defend evolution. Sort of like what we've had in this forum the last few days with some concerning what the bible says, wouldn't you say? ;)
<<<

..now that you mention it, absolutely correct.  Rationalization is the refuge of "ALL" those who have no desire to receive the love in truth because they take pleasure in their unrighteousness. That's the way of the world, and it always will be in that generation. You've got people blaming society for thieves and drunkards. You've got people in credit card debt and it is always someone else's fault, including the credit card company. You've got men rationalizing that it's the women's fault they beat them up. You've got pregnant women rationalizing that it's not their fault that they're pregnant. You've got people who can never hold a job, and it's always someone else's fault they get fired. Likewise, you've got those in the church rationalizing that when God says something, He really didn't mean it and it is just someone's else's private interpretation. ..even though it is quoted to them word for word from the text. That "indeed" is natural man, the nature of mankind. And except he or she is moved of the Spirit to accept the "authority" of scripture and obedience to the truth, it always will be. Except the Spirit of God work unto their receiving of the truth and obedience, they will forever be learning and never able to hear the truth. Whether inside or outside the church.

1st John 4:5-6
  • "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
  • We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

If some Christian is preaching the "unadulterated" word of God, and other Christians are denying it, then I think they have some serious issues apart from wrong opinions. It's one thing to disagree with a "conclusion" of man, but it's quite another to deny scripture and thus imply/suggest that it's not really true. That's not the working of the Spirit of truth.

1st Peter 1:22023
  • "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
  • Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

Worldly love and a dollar can get you a plastic bottle of water. But "agape" love is free benevolence, the true love of God and the brethren. A love unto obedience to His word rather than personal comfort, pats on the back, and appeasement.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

andreas

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2005, 12:04:19 AM »
<<<That's the way of the world, and it always shall be. You've got people blaming society for thieves and drunkards. You've got people in credit card debt, and it's always someone else's fault, including the credit card company. You've got men rationalizing that it's the women's fault they beat them up. You've got pregnant women rationalizing that it's not their fault that they're pregnant. You've got people who can never hold a job, and it's always someone else's fault. Likewise, you've got those in the church rationalizing that when God says something, He really didn't mean it and it's just someone's private interpretation. ..even though it's quoted it word for word! That "indeed" is the nature of man, except he or she is moved of the Spirit to acceptance of the "authority" of scripture and obedience to the truth. And except the Spirit of God work unto that obedience, they will always be ever learning and never hear the truth. Whether inside or outside the church.>>>

Correction.They all blame their actions on the structure of their DNA.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Erik Diamond

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 03:04:17 PM »
Hello.

I am attending Art History class at my college.  We were talking about early arts like cave painting, Stonehenge, etc. before Pyramids.

After I read Tony Warren's "Creation timeline",  I started to wondered when did these events actually happened. Was it before Noah's Flood, or after?  If these people who used to have longer life than us and probably as smart as we are, why can't they 'draw' better, etc? Why didn't they have established writing language?  My teacher have made those early men sound like some dumb cavemen who only communicate with animal bloods or fat on cave wall. But did God created Adam and early men after him this way?  What do you think the pre-flood people and their skills are like? 

Cave painting interested me but are they really 30,000 years old like teacher said?  Are they made before or after flood? 

I am interesting to know what you think about that?

Erik Diamond
   
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Penne

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 04:35:52 PM »
  What do you think the pre-flood people and their skills are like? 
Erik Diamond
   

Erik,
   
I certainly doubt they were dumber than us.  Actually, the earth had less pollutants so surely they had to be smarter and clearer minded.  You bring up a good question about why couldn’t they draw better.  They were definitely more resourceful than we are today. 

Noah had to understand math, God gave Noah the exact measurements for the ark. 

Genesis 4
20  And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21  And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22  And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.


Look at Jabal in verse 20, he had to know how to sew a tent, or at least someone in his household did.  This would include math.
Jubal invented musical instruments.
Tubalcain was an instructor of brass and iron.  He understood the processes on how to make both.
Those people were much smarter than most of us.

I don’t know if they didn’t have a writing system since they had all the other systems of math and science.  You know how children love to draw on walls, do you think their kids did the same?  This may explain the plain art work of stick men.  I’m just kidding of course, but I can not be convinced our history books are actually 100% correct.  The bible alone proves how much knowledge they had.  Man was not born without language or reasoning.  Adam had conversations with God immediately and named “flesh of his flesh,” Woman. 

Before an architect, drafter, or whoever invents or builds something they always start out with some sort of blueprint.  Jabel and Tubalcain come to mind, can you imagine making a tent or musical instrument without a detailed drawing of it?  They couldn’t rely on memory to store mistakes or successes when first inventing those things, which is why I believe they had to have a form of communications in writing.

The first man lived in a garden, not a cave.  I don’t believe there were cavemen in the way the history books tell.  Sure, I know some people did live in caves (Genesis 19:30), but I doubt they carried around a club to hit a beast over the head at dinner time or clubbed a female when he found her attractive and said, “UHG“.  All that is non-sense.

I’m not a historian or scientist.  I don’t have to be when I can read the Bible.  People were very intelligent before the flood and not brainless humans.

Sorry, I don't know when cave paintings were made.  It's just hard for me to believe people before the flood were dumber than us.

Penne

Tony Warren

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2007, 09:36:09 AM »
>>>
 If these people who used to have longer life than us and probably as smart as we are, why can't they 'draw' better, etc? Why didn't they have established writing language? 
<<<

Go to the jungles of South America today and look at some of the writings and drawings of the people living in isolated tribes there. They are very primitive looking. You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between their drawings and the so-called thousands upon thousands of year old cave drawings. The fact of the matter is, if you or I were born and raised in that type environment, we'd be drawing on the walls of caves with berry juice also. And our drawings would look exactly like theirs does. It has nothing whatsoever to do with intellect or  aptitude. The key words here are environment, familiarity and isolation, not evolved intelligence or acumen. By the same token, take one of those babies born in those tribes in South America, and raise them in our culture, and they could be just as educated as you or anyone else. People have developed differently in different cultures, not evolved over millions of years. There is a difference.

Hebrews 11:3
  • "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen are not made of things which do appear."

The key words here are seen and appear. Things are not as they appear to man (in his own wisdom), placing himself in this lofty position of thinking he knows the end from the beginning. It is a stumbling block to him to understanding. For man, in his own wisdom, confuses primitive living with intelligence. And again (as usual) it's for his own self-serving purposes. The "Religion" of evolution is just another way for man to "flatter himself in his own eyes." So that we've "evolved" into a totally new creation to be so much better than primitive men. How smart and  astute we are to have figured this all out. But if that is the case, then why do we see the same carnal aspects in Cain and Able as in brothers today? There is nothing new under the sun, and God looks upon Able the same as He looks upon any saved man today. As also with Cain. Because we are the same.

I can guarantee you that Noah didn't spend his time authoring letters, or drawing fancy pictures, which some would think makes him more intelligent. But he was a lot smarter than the worldly wise men of his day, and most today as well. ie, just because we have an abundance of visions, paper, superior pens, books and an abundance of time on our hands, doesn't mean we are any smarter than the people of old who didn't. Man likes to look upon himself as superior because of his sin nature, the vain "age-old" glorification of knowledge, which he wrongly identifies as intelligence! The opposite of the mind of Christ.

Romans 12:16
  • "Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits."

The "TRUTH" is, man is wise in his own conceits. Maybe even self-consciously, but there is no mistaking it. Why can't they 'draw' better? Who says they couldn't if given the same culture and Utilities? Why didn't they establish a written language? Actually they found writings I think a year or two ago which was thousands of years (according to them) earlier than they had previously thought man had started writing. Who cares! It doesn't matter, because what they actually know about people who lived before any writing has been found, you could fit on the head of a pin. The bottom line is, man doesn't know half the things he thinks he knows and only about half of what he knows he knows. There are all sorts of reasons there aren't writings laying around, not the least of which is because there were not billions of people in the world, and the people who were here stayed to their little groups/villages for the most part. In tribes, isolated for the most part. Just as the primitive people do in the jungles of South America. They would come and go in history and you'd never even know they existed if you didn't dig up the remnants of their cooking Utils. That doesn't make them products of evolution anymore than the diverse Indian tribes in this country who lived in diverse groups. And that was only a few hundred years ago. Selah!  By the way, remember that they were called primitive savages and thought to be inferior beings as well. All this only becomes a big mystery when one swallows "The Great Evolution Myth" hook, line and sinker. Otherwise, it's a simple matter of primitive culture. Not animals evolving into intelligent people over millions of years.


Quote
>>>
My teacher have made those early men sound like some dumb cavemen who only communicate with animal bloods or fat on cave wall.
<<<

Don't forget berry juice ;)

Of course your teacher did, otherwise how could evolution be true if these people were just as intelligent as we are today? I mean, then where would evolution be? We'd have to call it ..a myth, just as it actually is! I mean really, look at the Pyramids. Constructed thousands of years ago, and yet their method of construction totally baffles great so-called intelligent scientists to this very day, as to how it was done. The so called "intelligent" minds of today argue constantly on how these great bricks weighing tons could possibly have been constructed as a tower reaching up to heaven. And then be covered over with sand. To this day there is no clear consensus. ...In other words, those men living thousands of years ago who constructed these towers reaching to the sky, must have been a lot smarter than these scientists today who still haven't figured it out. Hmmmmm?

...or maybe they just don't get it!

If their assumptions and suppositions are wrong, then their conclusions will be wrong. In other words, they start out with an incorrect premise, and then they build a house of cards. ...which may look or appear good, but which will not stand.


Quote
>>>
Cave painting interested me but are they really 30,000 years old like teacher said?
<<<

The earth isn't 30,000 years old. And a writing on a wall in blood or berry juice would be non-existent after 30,000 years. These evolutionists depend upon the naiveté of most people, rather than actual knowledge, understanding and logical deductions, as support for their wild foolish self-serving theories. And "theories" are all they really are, once carefully examined.

You know, the true definition of evolve is to "develop or change by degrees." And in that sense, we are all evolving. And most of all Christians, or as God puts it, growing in Grace. The development or learning over time is nothing more complicated than being educated. Just as a two year old developing reading skills over time. If no one could read, in order to teach her, she would never learn to read. She would not evolve. Put her in some environments of Japan, and she might grow to be able to speak several languages by the age of 9. But that's not evolution in the classic sense of the word, which so many people (including Christians) don't really seem to understand. Vis-à-vis, Cave painting like those theorized to be by people living thousands or even a million years ago, could be made today by any one of us, had we not grown up and developed in the environments we did.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2007, 10:04:40 AM »
Hello.

I am attending Art History class at my college.  We were talking about early arts like cave painting, Stonehenge, etc. before Pyramids.

After I read Tony Warren's "Creation timeline",  I started to wondered when did these events actually happened. Was it before Noah's Flood, or after?  If these people who used to have longer life than us and probably as smart as we are, why can't they 'draw' better, etc? Why didn't they have established writing language?  My teacher have made those early men sound like some dumb cavemen who only communicate with animal bloods or fat on cave wall. But did God created Adam and early men after him this way?  What do you think the pre-flood people and their skills are like? 

Cave painting interested me but are they really 30,000 years old like teacher said?  Are they made before or after flood? 

I am interesting to know what you think about that?

Erik Diamond
   

Hi Erik,

Since the timeline according to man is vastly different from the timeline according to the Bible, you have to take what you hear with a grain of salt.  There is no doubt in my mind that Adam & Eve were smarter than we are today, and had no physical imperfections. The introduction of sin and subsequent curse upon the earth had a negative impact, the confusion of languages and dispursement of men during the account of the tower of Babel had a negative impact, and the flood had a negative impact -- afterwhich the nations had to again be developed by the sons of Noah.  

My view is that the cave drawings occured after the flood, but in any case I believe we would be amazed at the beauty and natural abilities of Adam/Eve (including what we today regard as extra-sensory-perception - ESP) in comparison to men today.  

Gen 3
17  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 11
1  And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2  And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3  And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6  And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8  So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9  Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Gen 7
17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18  And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22  All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24  And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 10
1  Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
... etc.
32  These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood
.


Yet despite such calamities that mankind has brought (and continures to bring) upon himself and the earth, it attests to God's forsight, and awesome creative powers which has enabled men to surviive and adapt, such that even today, we can say as David said, that we are fearfully and wonderfully made...

Psa 139
13  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Psa 8
3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6  Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7  All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8  The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!



Moreover, God hand of restraint has kept mankind from total destruction, and has allowed periods of progress -- including todays so called technological advances, all according to His overall plan of salvation.  Mankind has been allowed to thrive in accordance to God's plan that Christ would empty Himself of His glory and come into this world as one of us -- our Kinsmen Redeemer -- the second Adam, in order to meet the requirements of the Law that demands death for trangression of the Law.

Heb 2
5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6  But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12  Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13  And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.



No one knows all of the cyclical periods of advancement/'enlightenment" versus degredation/repression that has occured over time and in various parts of the world.  There are such refined aspects of the pyramids of Giza which cannot be explained or duplicated even today.  But since the perfection of Adam/Eve and the Garden of Eden was lost to sin, it's only due to the mercy of God that mankind has survived.

Rom 9
22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Colleen

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2007, 08:09:50 PM »

 The key words here are environment, familiarity and isolation, not intelligence. By the same token, take one of those babies born in those tribes in South America, and raise them in our culture, and they could be just as educated as you or anyone else. People have developed differently in different cultures, not evolved over millions of years. And there is a difference.


Absolutely correct. And what a coincidence, no sooner than I log on today that I read this.


World's Oldest Wall Painting Unearthed
By Khaled Yacoub Oweis,Reuters
Posted: 2007-10-11 16:53:58

DAMASCUS (Oct. 11) - French archaeologists have discovered an 11,000-year-old wall painting underground in northern Syria which they believe is the oldest in the world.

 Reuters Archaeologists clean an underground wall near the city of Aleppo, Syria, last month that revealed an 11,000-year-old wall painting believed to be the oldest in the world. It will be moved to Aleppo's museum next year.

The 2 square-meter painting, in red, black and white, was found at the Neolithic settlement of Djade al-Mughara on the Euphrates, northeast of the city of Aleppo, team leader Eric Coqueugniot told Reuters.

"It looks like a modernist painting. Some of those who saw it have likened it to work by (Paul) Klee. Through carbon dating we established it is from around 9,000 B.C.," Coqueugniot said.

"We found another painting next to it, but that won't be excavated until next year. It is slow work," said Coqueugniot, who works at France's National Centre for Scientific Research.

Rectangles dominate the ancient painting, which formed part of an adobe circular wall of a large house with a wooden roof. The site has been excavated since the early 1990s.

The painting will be moved to Aleppo's museum next year, Coqueugniot said. Its red came from burnt hematite rock, crushed limestone formed the white and charcoal provided the black.

The world's oldest painting on a constructed wall was one found in Turkey but that was dated 1,500 years after the one at Djade al-Mughara, according to Science magazine.

The inhabitants of Djade al-Mughara lived off hunting and wild plants. They resembled modern day humans in looks but were not farmers or domesticated, Coqueugniot said.

"There was a purpose in having the painting in what looked like a communal house, but we don't know it. The village was later abandoned and the house stuffed with mud," he said.

A large number of flints and weapons have been found at the site as well as human skeletons buried under houses.

"This site is one of several Neolithic villages in modern day Syria and southern Turkey. They seem to have communicated with each other and had peaceful exchanges," Coqueugniot said.

Mustafa Ali, a leading Syrian artist, said similar geometric design to that in the Djade al-Mughara painting found its way into art throughout the Levant and Persia, and can even be seen in carpets and kilims (rugs).

"We must not lose sight that the painting is archaeological, but in a way it's also modern," he said.

France is an important contributor to excavation efforts in Syria, where 120 teams are at work. Syria was at the crossroads of the ancient world and has thousands of mostly unexcavated archaeological sites.

Swiss-German artist Paul Klee had links with the Bauhaus school and was important in the German modernist movement.



Erik Diamond

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2007, 11:16:28 AM »
Quote
The earth isn't 30,000 years old. And a writing on a wall in blood or berry juice would be non-existent after 30,000 years. These evolutionists depend upon the naiveté of most people, rather than actual knowledge, understanding and logical deductions, as support for their wild foolish theories. And "theories" are all they really are, once carefully examined.

Thank you Tony for your comment.

I agree that earth is not older than 13,000 or so years, but has 'appear of age' that lead many people to believe that earth have been created millions of years ago. For example, Jesus turned water into prefect aged wine in an instant. So Jesus did not have problem create earth with appear of age in an instant.  

Anyway, I am curious, when do you think the cave painting took place?  Before or after flood?  Are we to think that there are nothing we can find that existed in pre-flood world that we can explain what that world looks like? What were the buildings looks like created by pre-flood people?  

Have a good weekend,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

John

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2007, 11:04:57 PM »
I look at human intelligence today and draw a distinction between innate intelligence and acquired learning.

Innate intelligence is the natural occurring ability of the brain to absorb and recall information. The faster the brain operates in absorbing and recalling information or the greater amount of information that can be stored and accessed determines innate intelligence. Just as there is variation in musculature, bone density, heart size, lung volume, and a thousand other physical factors-- so too, no two people have exactly the same genetically determined innate intellect.

Think of innate intelligence as the engine power we are born with. There is no reason to believe that antediluvian people had smaller intellectual capacity and many reasons to believe that had much greater. After the flood, and more particularly after the confusion of languages, it seems likely that with time isolated groups interbred and the overall genetic capability of the group was diminished. Think of the group's bell-shaped distribution curve leaning toward lower IQ and away from a higher IQ density. Not that there wouldn't be a genius IQs in each isolated group, but the number would be far smaller percentage-wise than the original. 

Over time, entropy being what it is, groups would lose the knowledge of basic skills that were once common to the original community. The knowledge of God would diminish to a level of superstition and once lost there is little chance of recovery. Intermingling of different groups is as unlikely then as it is today. People have a very strong need to identify within their group and to shun and distrust those different from themselves. One isolated groups' knowledge of metallurgy, carpentry, or masonry, for instance, would not be shared with potential rivals.

Innate intelligence varies between persons and is distributed unevenly between groups. These variations can deprive or bolster individual ethnic groups. In order for one civilization to achieve a more sophisticated culture there needs to be thinkers, but there also needs to be a memory of the past to build upon. A culture that has lost knowledge of past achievements (the wheel, metal working, fire, etc.) is not going to compete in the region as a major force. No doubt with the division of mankind at Babel some groups were at a distinct disadvantage. Thus, those were the groups never able to advance a culture to achieve anything note-worthy.

Secondly, if a group is under constant threat of extermination by its regional enemies, there is not going to be any significant advance in culture. It is during peaceful periods that advances in religion, science, art, farming, etc., are able to take place. To have peace you need to have a strong military and a strong military is most probable when you have better toys to intimidate the enemy with. A stronger military is in part the result of better genetics coupled with a better grasp of past achievements to build upon. But that is not all that is needed.

Consider the American Indians and the Spanish, Portuguese, English, or French invaders into the Americas.  Each indigenous Indian population was divided by language and various cultural identities that kept them apart. A varied level of achievement amongst the Indians existed - some tribes remained violent and primitive and others built cities and engaging in science and agricultural improvements. All the different factors were at play – but one other factor trumped it all. The invaders had superior weaponry and a superior knowledge of too many things that the Indians did not have.  Ignoring the unintentional spread of disease, the Indians really never had a chance against the invaders from across the sea.

Therefore, the best arrangement possible would be: 1) higher density of persons in the group with strong innate intellect, 2) a strong starting knowledge of things to build upon, and, 3) a long period of peace to grow a culture. But that is not the end of it. There is a fourth determinate. Barring better circumstances, there is still another way to develop a society rapidly: Absorb your enemies into your culture. That is, conquer them! Rather than develop a society slowly from within take the fast-track and conquer advanced peoples, assimilate the best, and improve your culture. It worked well for the Assyrians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Europeans that eventually assimilated the Americas.

America became the super-power it is by assimilating ethnic groups from around the world -- gaining an advantage in prior know-how, gaining persons with superior IQ, coupled with isolation from its enemies and peaceful neighbors it was able to achieve prolonged periods of peace – nearly every factor needed to advance a society. But there is still yet one important factor left. That last factor is religion.

The Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and other assorted pagan religions and cults have a world-view that stifles creativity, promotes indifference and apathy, fears change, and enslaves the people. The same can be said for certain governmental systems that seek to hold power through brutality. The Christian religion properly applied by governments and administered in society fosters individual freedoms married to responsibility to God. Under this dynamic human achievement can blossom, as it did in America, especially when the other factors mentioned are present, and in this case they have been.

Should you compare crude cave painting to a magnificent work of art by Michelangelo or other seeming poorer skills to modern achievements, consider which factors were at work to limit or expand that culture. Consider the strength of group intelligence and genetic traits; consider the level of historical-generational knowledge passed down. Were those people afforded peaceful periods for building upon that knowledge, did their government and religion allow the assimilation of other cultures that was beneficial to society? Did their government and religion permit individual freedom to explore and create?

That fabled cave painter might have been his people’s best - an Einstein, but without the other factors in place, the bison on the wall and flint spears was all that was possible for him. There is no reason to suppose that if you’d been in a similar situation you would have fared any better.  Consider, if there were a contagion that wiped out all of mankind except you, what would you be able to accomplish? I’m thinking archaeologists would one day find evidence of your short life in artifacts of flint spears and little red bisons painted on a cave wall.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Tony Warren

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2007, 09:37:40 AM »
>>>
Anyway, I am curious, when do you think the cave painting took place?  Before or after flood?
<<<

Oh, I have no idea when those or any painting that are found actually took place (pre 5000) years. I can only tell you that they didn't take place 30,000+ years ago! Does it even matter?

Since I believe that the flood took place around 7000 years ago, and writings have been found only to about maybe 5000 years ago, it seems logical that the first 2000 years after the flood were spent creating a living, building and populating the earth from 8 people, and so there logically wouldn't be found much (or even any) writings/drawings during that time. I think we can "safely say," they didn't have the time on their hands that we have today to waste drawing pretty pictures.

And the fact of the matter is, we know how hard it is to find writings on cave walls even a few hundred years old. Lots of things have to happen and things all align up properly in order for paintings to remain over extended periods of time. It depends upon the ink or writing material used, the wall surface, the climate and environment, if water or moisture is present, insect life, a whole bevy of things. Actually, I don't really see where it's important, since faith is not by sight or by having convincing archaeological record, but of God.


Quote
>>>
Are we to think that there are nothing we can find that existed in pre-flood world that we can explain what that world looks like? What were the buildings looks like created by pre-flood people? 
<<<

Again, I do not know what the buildings looked like pre-flood. Since they were evidently all destroyed, I wouldn't think anyone knows, except they dig up that has been preserved in mud. I would only "assume" they looked pretty much like any other primitive dwellings we have even today. Which is also probably why we won't find many. For example, see some of the isolated villages people dwell within in the middle east and I don't think you would be far off in "assuming" their appearance was in that mold. Just a plain brick upon brick house. Most were probably clay bricks, straw or thatch-like roofs perhaps, even as some of the Indian tribes of this country.

Is the question of man's intelligence pre-flood, or just curiosity of architecture?


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reformed2005

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 07:46:10 PM »
I have been listening to Ron Choong.  If you don't know him, Ron is a Christian and a scientist (not a Christian Scientist!!!! lol).  Anyway, he brings up some great points about how certain tenets of evolution can be correctly understood in light of the Bible.

 - God could have created a large number of early creatures.  These early creatures could have then evolved into more species.
     - From my own understanding of Biology, I would add that God would have had to create a large number of species (the "kinds" that the Bible speaks of), because I don't see a fish becoming a bird!

 - God could have created a type of man, and then breathed the "breath of life" (aka, a soul) into that type of man, to make him a "modern human"
     - This would mean that a type of previous homo being would have been created into homosapien at a time decided upon by God, and through His working.

The above does comport with my understanding of science, and the knowledge of God that He has given to us.  So, on the surface, I do not have a problem with it, and it actually (on the surface), makes my faith MORE robust because of its powerful showing of God's creative hand!

So, my question on this would be as follows:

If sin & death entered the world through Adam, how and why did previous animals die?  I'm not understanding how this part of it would work.

When I came to think about the above from Ron Choong, and looked at the Bible, it truly made me appreciate God even more.  For a long time, I had thought that evolution takes from God...when, in fact, it can ADD to our love of Him!!!

But, the question that I asked is troubling me, and I don't understand how that would fit.  If anyone has an answer, I would appreciate it!

andreas

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Re: Evolution of Man Vs The Bible and Science
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2008, 01:22:50 AM »
<<<- God could have created a type of man, and then breathed the "breath of life" (aka, a soul) into that type of man, to make him a "modern human"
     - This would mean that a type of previous homo being would have been created into homosapien at a time decided upon by God, and through His working.

The above does comport with my understanding of science, and the knowledge of God that He has given to us.  So, on the surface, I do not have a problem with it, and it actually (on the surface), makes my faith MORE robust because of its powerful showing of God's creative hand!what is the matter with you lot?>>>


7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 1.

What is it you do not get?God created man,not a type of man! Why do you have to bring in, something , called evolution?

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

 


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