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Author Topic: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion  (Read 2892 times)

Sandy

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Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« on: October 30, 2005, 04:37:02 PM »
I know there are some in this community who believe that tribulation during the time called "the" great tribulation period will be spiritual in nature.  It has been said that this differs greatly from what the early church suffered, and since this is an end time prophecy the spritual tribualtion will be the prevalent force against the church and her true witnesses.  While I believe that all tribulation, and persecution evolves from ones spiritual persuasion, I also believe that persecution against the christian will become of a physical nature even toward those believers living in a country (USA) where physical persecution against all people is something we know little of.

I'm reminded of this when I read of places like modern day Ethiopia.  Ethiopia is mentioned over 60 times in the Bible as was one of the first Christian nations.  In recent decades, political upheaval, repression, famine, drought, and war have killed millions.  Since the fall of Communism, Ethiopians have been struggling to rebuild their country and regain a sense of identify. 

In the past 20 years Ethiopian Christians have been severely persecuted by the communists.  After the Marxist government fell in 1991, the church experienced phenomenal growth.  But like in most of Africa, the political vacuum left from the Cold War has pitted Islam against the church, and has left the church very weak, with few resources, tools, leaders, or pastors to disciple new believers.  Few have even basic Bible training. 

Ethiopian Christians are attacked and some killed by rock-throwing mobs.  Christian women have been stripped and raped.  Some have been handicapped.  An Ethiopian pastor was jailed more than 25 times for his Christian activities, and was recently hanged upside down and hot oil was poured onto his bare feet. 

These Believers in Ethiopia know the Lord Jesus, and are confident in His all-encompassing power.  This is the hope that keeps them going.  Christians in the USA are no different then those persecuted Christians all over the world.  Just because we do not have the intense amout of physical persecution many other Christians have all over the world does not negate the promise from Christ  unto all His people in every nation.  It's not a matter of if we will suffer physical persecution, but when.     

When Jesus said to His disciples, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first... . If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also" (John 15:18,20).

While spiritual persecution will undoubtedly increase, make no mistake along with the spiritual there will be great physical persecution as well.  So we should not be so quick to assume the killing of the two witnesses in Rev. speaks only of the spiritual.  We too may one day find we must be willing to suffer and even physically be killed for our love for the Lord.

Sandy     

Jessie

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 11:30:25 PM »
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I also believe that persecution against the christian will become of a physical nature even toward those believers living in a country (USA) where physical persecution against all people is something we know little of.

I really doubt that, there are laws set up in this country to protect people agains't hate crimes so that even the homosexuals benifit from them. On top of that there are very stringent domestic violence laws and we are spending billions of dollars on security agains't terrorism. People who focus on physical persecution must look at other countries around the world, because here in the United States it is almost none existant. I'm not saying that we don't have some luny burn or bomb a church down now and then, but one on one persecution will not happen here.

Jessie 

Erik Diamond

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2005, 12:33:40 AM »
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I also believe that persecution against the christian will become of a physical nature even toward those believers living in a country (USA) where physical persecution against all people is something we know little of.


I do not deny that there were physcial persecution against God's Elects in parts of the world since the dawn of Man. Jesus warned this:

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

I think many misunderstood that the verse must speak about physical persecution. I disagree.  All Christians suffered different kind of persecution for Christ's sake, and it does not always have to be bodily persecution. For example, a company boss gave his chrsitian employee a pink slip because of her faith.  The boss might not say it outright, but make up an excuse for her termination.  It is heart matter. She is being persectued for her faith.  Or how about this one, someone hates you because of your faith in Christian, you are being persecuted for Christ's sake.  Not all Christians will be bodily harmed or killed for Christ's sake. There are many kind of persecution.

I personally don't believe there will be world-wide bodily persecution against every Christians on earth as you liked us to believe.  Yes, some Christians WILL be physical persecution depending on where they are, according to God's will.  As you should know, each Christians always had different kind of persecution for their faith in Christ.  What is unquie about this Great Tribulation in the end is spiritual darkness when salvation will not be possible. 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22á And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

The physical persecution will not 'deceive' God people as church history proves.  It is the false prophets who will come with 'power' of Satan that can deceive many, even to the point that it almost deceive God's people. You see, after God have finished sealing his people, the Great Tribulation begins when there will be no more new convert to be added to God's family. So the number of living Elects will drop dramatically. If God will allow the Great Tribulation to last too long, there will be no true Elect alive on earth, however, for OUR sake, God will cut Great Tribulation period short. The nature of Great Tribulation will be different because the judgment against church will be so bad that God allowed the false prophets (locusts - Rev 9) to roam into the churches to ensure that no more man will be saved.  That is why God warned HIS PEOPLE to get out! With God's people departing out of the church, the deceived people will mock about our depart out and will contiune to go to church like business as usual.

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Again, to the deceived corporate believers, as well as the world, it will be business as usual.  Sound like world-wide physical blood-bath to every Christians on earth to you?  Doubtfully!  Only God's elects can discern the signs of time when Son of Man is near.  It will only happen after the Midnight Cry to warn us that Bridegroom is coming. Only the wise with oil can discern the signs and know that Christ is near. However, the foolish virgins, a corporate believers, will deny that their church is under judgment and still go there to buy and sell.  They will not know until Christ comes!

Physical persecution? Some christians in the parts of the world, even in our own nation, do suffer physical persecution as of this writinig. Some of us won't, but do suffer persecution of different form.  Keep in mind that ALL christians ALWAYS had persecution of different forms, however, I do not believe that physical persecution will be the main factor of the Great Tribulation period in the end.

Erik

 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Jessie

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2005, 02:11:51 AM »
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In the past 20 years Ethiopian Christians have been severely persecuted by the communists.  After the Marxist government fell in 1991, the church experienced phenomenal growth.

Sandy,

Aren't the majority of the churches in Africa Charismatic or Pentecostal? False Gospels are extremely popular in third world countries, most of the churches in Latin American countries are Roman Catholic, but the Pentecostal movement has made some progress even in some of those countries. Many of those that are persecuted in these third world countries are Christian only in name.

1 Peter 2:20  For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

If these people are bringing false doctrines and are suffering persecution, what glory does that bring to God?  Only the suffering of the true believers is acceptable and brings glory to God.

Jessie

andreas

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 02:45:22 AM »
<<<I know there are some in this community who believe that tribulation during the time called "the" great tribulation period will be spiritual in nature.>>>
 

 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.   Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect  Behold, I have told you before. Matthew 24:21-25

For then shall be great tribulation,great ,for if it were possible the elect will be deceived.That is what the great tribulation is all about.The emphasis is spiritual not physical.It is the same event as the following passages.

 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.2 Thes.2:3-4

 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.Revelation16:13-14

Satan is the great deceiver.He comes with signs and wonders to deceive .

 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Revelation 9:1-3

 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.Revelation 13::1-14

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Sandy

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 07:17:31 AM »
Tribualtion, persecution aimed at Christians is always spiritual.  But history shows the True Church was/is being built on the BLOOD of the martyrs.  What do you suppose tribualtion and persecution will be like once God finally removes the hand restraining the sinfulness in mankind?  Will Satan, and the evil world be satisfied with killing spiritually?  This would certainly be a new twist in attacks against Christians by Satan and wicked men.  History tells us that in the past blood-letting was always necessary to have proof and glory in victory.  But this is not something we need spend a great deal of time on.  Because time indeed will show us what will happen as the day draws ever closer.

Sandy 

Melanie

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Re: Physical Great Tribualtion
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 08:54:08 AM »
Tribualtion, persecution aimed at Christians is always spiritual.  But history shows the True Church was/is being built on the BLOOD of the martyrs.

I think that biblical history show the true church was/is being built on the blood of Christ. That some were killed physically for preaching the gospel does not mean that's how the church is built. From what I read all throughout scripture I see the decline of the church being for spiritual reasons, not physical ones. God says primarily beware of false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing and those coming with another gospel.


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What do you suppose tribualtion and persecution will be like once God finally removes the hand restraining the sinfulness in mankind?

Like it is right now, with hatred of the faithful, with stomping upon the word of God, and with reviling of the truth.


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  Will Satan, and the evil world be satisfied with killing spiritually?

Yes. That's exactly what he is after.  Our spiritual death. Then we are his body and soul.


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This would certainly be a new twist in attacks against Christians by Satan and wicked men.

Not really. Satan has always brought men into spiritual bondage, just as he did Judas.


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History tells us that in the past blood-letting was always necessary to have proof and glory in victory.  But this is not something we need spend a great deal of time on.  Because time indeed will show us what will happen as the day draws ever closer.
Sandy

Time has shown us, as the church has become more and more wicked, corrupt, political, faithless and compromising. Spiritual bondage.

Lower

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Re: Physical or Spiritual Great Tribualtion
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 02:18:56 PM »

I'm reminded of this when I read of places like modern day Ethiopia.  Ethiopia is mentioned over 60 times in the Bible as was one of the first Christian nations.


You are right the name Ethiopia is mentioned in the Bible, but you must understand that Ethiopia (or often translated Cush) is not modern day Ethiopia. Also I doubt when did Ethiopia become one of the first Christian nations? (I say that because historians and politicians have been denoting such claims, making the Ethiopians become filled with pride, that to the effect they don't give ear to the truth of the word, but their tradition.)

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In recent decades, political upheaval, repression, famine, drought, and war have killed millions.  Since the fall of Communism, Ethiopians have been struggling to rebuild their country and regain a sense of identify.

Exactly, these causes of death are predominant in Ethiopia and everywhere else. In this world, natural and political causes of death will continue even during the great tribulation period, God did not tell us these will stop in the world when the Devil overtakes the churches by power. So when we see these things in countries like Ethiopia we shouldn't conclude here it's how the great tribulation is like to be.

Great tribulation is biblical matter that is shown to us in the written Word of God with good answers on how to expect it. So I agree with Replies #2 and #4 that the tribulation is more of a spiritual matter, I am glad they have shown it with biblical reference because the answer is in the bible. I am also sure that those who believe in the coming of the spiritual persecution are sorry for the disasters and deaths in the world; however, the greatest concern is over the spiritual disaster that will be caused to the Church because of false ones.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

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After the Marxist government fell in 1991, the church experienced phenomenal growth.

From what I know the number of true believers (Christians) was higher when we were oppressed under the DERG (ደርግ) government than after freedom from that regime. I don't know if there are few TULIP believers found in the country, anymore. I think higher number in Japan than in Ethiopia.


For your information, 95% of Ethiopians who claim are Christians are of the Traditional Orthodox TEWAHDO, that is since it's beginning in the 13th century one of the false christian religions, but, was the almost one and only approved religion during DERG and rule of Emperor HaileSelassie I. After freedom the figure may be changed to 90% Tewahdo because of converts who moved out of it. Yet, they are converted to another type of false religion - the seeker sensitive Charismatic Pentecostalism - giving rise to even new versions, made in Ethiopia types, of Full Gospel and Word of Life Pentecostalism. The best Bible teaching Christianity in the region is Lutheran that comes from what was introduced to Eritrea by missionaries from Europe. After the oppression is over the Lutherans are carried away with the wind and I don't find any good bible discerning Christian anymore. So if there are few faithful Christians in Ethiopia, my soul will delight.

I am sorry to write like that. My aim is to let you realize that when you look answers to a biblical matter you must get it right from the bible. Not from building up your observation. You see I have disagreed with most of your observations and that means not a good way to start asking about the characteristics of the great tribulation.

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But this is not something we need spend a great deal of time on.  Because time indeed will show us what will happen as the day draws ever closer.

Honestly, after all, "time ... will show us" is what caused me to write a reply to your messages. I am reminded of a person who when asked: "how do we know that you are not a false prophet", to which he answered: "time will tell". Time will not tell them when they are duped they are blind, indeed, that deceiver was wise he responded to wait for time to tell them?

Back to your message, you are saying that if we are alive tomorrow we will see what will happen, there is no need to spend great deal of time on the issue. Well, if we have time it is of great importance that we spend it reading the Word of God until everything is clear to us, or, get answers from those who have found the answers from the Bible like you did here.
But to think to postpone is not wise. The truth is God is who should show us, and He did show us already that we don't have to wait for time. But be ready before it comes. That is how you avoid deception, that's what the written Word of God is for:

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

Job 36:22  Behold, God exalteth by his power: who teacheth like him?

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Finally I assume that you are satisfied by the answers people have given from the Bible. But if there are more things you need to know related to this issue, let us know.
እግዚኣብሄር ኣቦ ብወዱ ብጐይታ ክርስቶስ የሱስ ዓብዪ ግብሪ ምድሓን ገይሩልና ። ክብርን ምስጋናን ፡ ብስም ክርስቶስ የሱስ ንዕኡ ይኹኖ ። ኣሜን ።

ናይ ዘልኣለም ህይወት ፣ ብናይ ኣምላኽና ዘልኣለማዊ ጸጋ ። ንሱ ርእሲ ኹሉ ኮይኑ ፣ ንዘልኣለም ይነግስ ።

 


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