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Author Topic: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?  (Read 7468 times)

nicoengelbrecht

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2005, 12:45:42 PM »
gee, i wonder what God makes of all this. It seems to me like everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

I understand that the bible speaks of false prophets but doesnt that imply that there would be real prophets also? meaning that one would need to discern the spirit. like Paul said

I have read all of the most but I do not have the time to respond as I would like. It's been very enlightening...

oh and someone had mentioned the repetetiveness of "praise and worship" in charasmatic (<<this word is new to me lol) churches, i understand doctrinal disputes and all that but u cant knock praise and worship. God inhabits our praise and last time i checked David was such a crazy praise and worshipper he danced out of his clothes. Plus isnt that all the angels do in heaven, cry Holy Holy Holy. I've been to many different types of churches and when it came to praise in worship (in spirit and in truth) "charasmatic/pentecostal" churches knew how sing loud praises unto the Lord like the Psalms speak about.

later

Omari,
Please read this, I trust this is enlightening to you.
False Prophets today are interpreting the bible personally and not let scripture interpret scripture.  They deceive and prophecy not what God has said. God has said it all in the Word and that is His communication to us today.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That is the way to worship God, in spirit and in truth.
What are not spirit and in truth?
1.   When worship is pleasurable that is for me, that what excites me, for my enjoyment.
2.   When it is informal, all physical with no reverence and dignity
3.   Aesthetic worship when it is artistic, beauty or skills and my dexterity or gift. But God is Spirit
4.   When worship is ecstatic, it becomes mysticism.  My thoughts about God, his character, what He has done for us are suppose to stir my emotion internally.  Not music, external influence by the assault of music instruments.  We are deceived by thinking our feeling is a sense of God’s closeness or presence.  This is mysticism.
5.   Shallow worship.  Songs with minimum meaning because when it has meaning it gets in the way of feelings.
Worship is either sacred or profane (worldly)
I will explain and give scriptural reference to the point I make.

Charismatic style of worship “in spirit” is repetition, not unlike the mantras of Hinduism and is altered state of consciousness.  The same as what drugs do with the sensations it causes but not of God.  It is an euphoric state which does not change you, no instant fix by experience as in experiential theology.  It is only the Word that changes you bit by bit.  How do you remove the mountain by faith?  The Jews new it was with a shovel bit by bit.  Charismatic style is worldly, seeker friendly strategies using contemporary Christian music with little doctrinal content.  The world is in the church and the church is not taking the church to the world.
There are two forms of worship
1.   All of life, with everything we do to the glory of God.
2.   Direct worship.  Directed itself to God, cut out all physical acts.  God’s definition is in spirit not in the physical.  With your sole not with dance, not with body, not with offering like the Jews.  They had instruction with using visual aids that pointed to Jesus and was fulfilled in Him.  You cannot worship God with a violin or drums, how can you worship through it?  You worship with words music are supportive of our worship.  It is the words that are the precursor of feelings and emotions, the music must not stir emotion, worship is rational and intelligent. 
Let us look at Revelation that gives us the way to worship.

  Revelation 4:-4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.  9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,


This is symbolic of what happens in the gospel age showing God’s people now in heaven and earth, using symbols.  The twenty four elders are the Old and New Testament Christians the twelve tribes and the twelve Apostles.  It tells us how we should worship.  Saying saying Words. Saying though art worthy. Eight times saying, full of meaning and intellect then the feeling system responds.  You cannot worship with body, and instruments.

 Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Lamb is named and we are God’s priest and subsequently we understand the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.

Let us look now at the Principles of Worship:

1.   It is not a matter of taste but of principles.  Our generation is a generation of rock.  The spirit and truth has been thrown out and replaced with Aesthetic Worship not spiritual.  Aesthetic is beauty, something for the eye to please the senses.  It can be in drama performed with skills, concert, orchestra, a pop group or anything that is pleasing to behold and stirs the senses.  Is it spiritual?  Our skills are not an offering to God.  God is not sitting down and watching our performance and not enjoying it.  The Roman Catholic Church always enjoyed Aesthetic Worship without words.  The beauty of the stained glass, the craftmanship, all the colourfull robes like Santa, the Gregorian chants and the Icons.  All these the Protestants had done away with.  Luther and Calvin brought in intelligent worship in spirit and not theatrical worship.  The Reformers had thrown it out with the worship of icons and man.  But have the New Age church done?  They have made a big stride towards Rome. Now we bring in drums and percussion instrument to worship God by their performance.  God is not the audience for our performance.  Today they are bringing the world in the church to be seeker friendly with the new Church Growth Movement.  They entertain people and use strategies to bring in the numbers and do not trust the Holy Spirit to bring in the converts.  In the outreaches they use concerts, jazz, modern music, rock, to get people in the seats they show them we are just like you whereas we should be different.  The new worship far exceeds Rome, more decibels more entertainment and the Roman Catholic Church embraces the same strategies of the new worship, it keeps the members.  Is it not the same as the offering of Cain and Abel?  Cain offered his attainments to God.  We do the same, it is the worship of Cain

2.   Second Principle is worship is Rational and not Ecstatic.   The entertaining principle of building the worship up to a climax because God lives in the Praises of man is emotional and brings altered states of consciousness.  They start lively, and then switch the tempo, they cleverly engineer the mood to reach out to God, to touch God and manipulate Him to come down and inhabit their carnal physical praises.  God comes down and not we to Him.  What really stirred the spiritual emotion and Godly worship is when we say Words.  Say:  “I thank thee Lord that you suffered for my sin sickness, for such a worm such as I” This stirs emotion and this is in spirit and in truth.  Real spirituality is not what the Charismatics experience which is lying signs and wonders but what we experience when we understand that we are vile sinners, unconditionally elected, that we behold the Lamb that was slain for us by grace only and that He will preserve us to the end.   That is what stirs us, that are when we say the words that we cheer and that is worship.  Rome is for ecstatic worship with its smells and bells.  Where are the days of giants like Luther who stood up and defended his faith?  Today we have the same situation.  The excuse of the New Age church is;” we are bored with the old traditional way of worship” We wonder where they stand spiritually. Why are they so dependant on external thing to enjoy and stir them?  Don’t switch from the rational to the ecstatic.  Worship is either sacred of profane.  What is profane worship?  The world the flesh and the devil.  Everything that titillates the flesh is worldly, aesthetic and ecstatic things that we offer to God.  Things like popular entertainment, modern pop scene which has it’s origin from an anti- God, anti-moral, anti-authority culture.  This has no place in the sacred worship of God because it promotes worship of me and it is sinful to use music form that is offensive to God.   

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.  Spiritual adultery is mixing the sacred with the profane the world.

  The new style of worship bring people into sin, some are deceived by woe to the deceivers.  Before the sixties our forebears did not allowed this in church.  In remote corners of the world where some tribes that used tradition drums in the worship of their ancestors they renounced this type of worship in their new found religion.  But now the new age church is bringing back this worship to those tribes in doing what their forebears had sacrificed their lives for.  Because to them it is a matter of taste and not principles.  The people have wrecked all work done by missionary forebears and they export it to China and remote corners as well as the health wealth and prosperity teaching.  In China some Christians began to think that they are not Christians because they are not rich or they lack faith.  It is to say the least despicable, savage in their deceit.  Some of those proponents are not worthy to be on the pulpit, not fit to be ministers, they bring in the drums and are not to be trusted.  Abraham was called out of his culture.  We are a peculiar people and different from the world.                         

Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

  If you ask them why you use drums they will tell you “we want the world to know we are the same” Yea.  It is sinful.
 
3.   The necessity of Reverence.

  1 Corinthians 14:24, But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.  29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

In these verses it is not free for all worship but peace and in order.   

Let us look at the Old Testament
To promote and support unscriptural worship the Psalms are quoted.  They danced and played instrument so why not us?  Well if you want to do all that the Old Testament says then you can also slaughter lambs and offer sacrifices.  Maybe offer first born son’s like the Church of Zion has done in the past.  But it has all been fulfilled in Jesus and in a way the instruments and music too in Jesus.  What did God command in the Old Testament?

 1 Chronicles 15:16,28 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. 28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.
1 Chronicles 16:5-6,42 Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obededom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals;  6 Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God. 42 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.  1 Chronicles 25:1,6 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: 6 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king’s order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman. 


All verses tell us what instruments were allowed.  Symbols not percussion and symbols were an instrument to keep time.  It was not allowed in the Synagogue but in the temple.  Priest could bring trumpet but on special occasions to call the people.  No flute or tambourine allowed.  They did not sing to them.  Only for the burnt offering but then silence.  There are restrictions to what they could use.  God is laying down principles and we are not under the Old Testament. 

Instruments must not overwhelm the worship with words It was most solemn and with reverence. 
But what about the Psalms.  Are the rules broken?  No, 

Psalm 68:25 The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the damsels playing with timbrels.

The rules are not broken, it happened outdoors, victory celebration day, a  civic celebration and it happened not in the Temple it was a culture thing.  It was not an act of worship.  The Jews were a church and a nation state but they did not bring it in the Temple.  In Ps. 98, 149 it was in the open air and on their beds.

 Psalm 149:5,6 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

 It was personal worship in all aspects of personal life. 
What about dancing David danced?  Not to worship he dance outdoors.  He raised his hands in the Psalms, yes, why?  Because he was far from home, and the sacrifices, he raises his hands as the priests raised the offering to God.  David identified with the sacrifice for sins.  It pointed to Jesus and this sacrifice had been made and fulfilled in Christ we do not lift our hands in Church, or do we want to resurrect the sacrifices and the Temple like the Dispensationalists.  With al these body movements it takes away our inhibitions and so is rationality inhibited. “Open yourself up do not think or you will not receive” the proponents of another gospel will say.  Not unlike the Guru’s. 
We must reject this new sinful destructive worship.  We are separated from the world and it will only destroy true spirituality and worship God in spirit and in truth.  It is not spirit and it is not truth, but carnal and savage lies.
Nico

omari

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2005, 05:42:32 PM »
thanks Nico - thats alot for me to swallow now but its pushed me to seek for a deeper understanding of God, His Word, and His ways.

nicoengelbrecht

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2005, 09:20:43 PM »
Omari,
you help me to look at the scripture afresh.  Acts Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Please come with more.
Nico

omari

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2005, 11:50:45 PM »
ok nico im back.
thanks for distinguishin worship from praise.
as christians we are to give both unto God.
i will not argue with u're explanation on proper biblical worship but it seems to me that u've confused pentecostal worship with pentecostal praise.
my original point was that although u may not agree with certain doctrines and behaviors of charismatic churches they still know how to offer up a praise and (in most cases i know of) worship in the way u describe above

Psalm 150
   1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

   2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

   3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

   4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

   5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

   6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.


so the bible tells us to make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands...
...Enter his gates with thanksgiving
       and his courts with praise;
       give thanks to him and praise his name.

this all seems pretty clear to me. so when i sing and dance in my church (not temple or synagouge) to is it possible that God is pleased with my "Praise"??



Rhodarose

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 10:19:54 PM »
Hello,  as you can see I am a Newbee and this is my first post and I am not sure how to use all the posting "goodies" so bear with me...and where is the spell checker..  ???

This was given to me some time ago and since then it has been confirmed to me quit a few times...
( "given" and confirmed not by man but by the Holy Spirit while "chewing the cud" of His Word )

Ac 2:5-12
¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Modern version:
One delegate from every nation was invited to hear a host speaker from a small tribe that had been discovered in the far outreaches of....? (doesn't matter except it was so isolated that these people spoke their own language that no one had heard of or knew about and never studied ) The day arrived and all the delegates were present in the auditorium.  All spoke their native language and no  interpreters  where provided. All took their seats and the guest speaker went to the podium and gave a 45 minute speech on the life he lived in his village.  The speech was enjoyed by all...How...?
One man speaking one language to 100 plus delegates who spoke 100 plus different languages...? ...but they all heard him speak in their own language... 100 plus ...

I believe Jesus told us many times "how" ....

"He that hath tongues to talk, let him talk...."

That must have been it ... logical for the "tongue talkers" but how could one person speak  the "tongue" language of 100 plus all at the same time so all understood...

Impossible...but all things are possible with God...and...

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

1Co 14:21-22a
¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign,( not to them that believe, but) to them that believe not...

Joh 4:48
Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Mt 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Joh 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Rhoda
Love and Blessings, Rhoda 

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 11:18:06 PM »
Hello,  as you can see I am a Newbee and this is my first post and I am not sure how to use all the posting "goodies" so bear with me...and where is the spell checker..  ???

This was given to me some time ago and since then it has been confirmed to me quit a few times...
( "given" and confirmed not by man but by the Holy Spirit while "chewing the cud" of His Word )

Ac 2:5-12
¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Modern version:
One delegate from every nation was invited to hear a host speaker from a small tribe that had been discovered in the far outreaches of....? (doesn't matter except it was so isolated that these people spoke their own language that no one had heard of or knew about and never studied ) The day arrived and all the delegates were present in the auditorium.  All spoke their native language and no  interpreters  where provided. All took their seats and the guest speaker went to the podium and gave a 45 minute speech on the life he lived in his village.   The speech was enjoyed by all...How...?
One man speaking one language to 100 plus delegates who spoke 100 plus different languages...? ...but they all heard him speak in their own language... 100 plus ...

I believe Jesus told us many times "how" ....

"He that hath tongues to talk, let him talk...."

That must have been it ... logical for the "tongue talkers" but how could one person speak  the "tongue" language of 100 plus all at the same time so all understood...

Impossible...but all things are possible with God...and...

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

1Co 14:21-22a
¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign,( not to them that believe, but) to them that believe not...

Joh 4:48
Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Mt 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Joh 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Rhoda


Rhodarose,

You have misapplied scriptures.  Tongues is not about a person telling about how he lived his life in his village.

DSOUZAANTHONY


Rhodarose

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 11:47:36 PM »
Quote
You have misapplied scriptures.  Tongues is not about a person telling about how he lived his life in his village.

DSOUZAANTHONY

You mis-understood...the "village" thing was a story...not Scripture....

Rhoda
Love and Blessings, Rhoda 

Joanne

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2005, 01:37:01 AM »
Hello,  as you can see I am a Newbee and this is my first post and I am not sure how to use all the posting "goodies" so bear with me.


Rhonda, welcome to the forum.


Quote
This was given to me some time ago and since then it has been confirmed to me quit a few times...
( "given" and confirmed not by man but by the Holy Spirit while "chewing the cud" of His Word )

I'm not quite sure what you mean by confirmed by the holy spirit. What was confirmed, and how was it confirmed. Do you believe there is till speaking in tongues, or do you believe there is no more speaking in tongues, or you not of either view? I'm having a hard time understanding what you meant by your post. Are you talking about a miracle that occured at pentecost, or something recent?


Rhodarose

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 09:51:55 AM »
Quote
Do you believe there is till speaking in tongues, or do you believe there is no more speaking in tongues, or you not of either view?
First of all the word (glossa) translated "tongues" is aslo translated "languages" and I do believe people spoke in other languages...but the verses that I quote and tried to tell a "story" about to explain is not language/tongues...it's about Hearing...
Quote
I'm having a hard time understanding what you meant by your post. Are you talking about a miracle that occured at pentecost, or something recent?
I guess a miracle then, now and inbetween...the miracle of having "ears to hear" what the Spirit says...I tried to say that Jesus never instructed us to have "tongues/mouths to talk/speak" but to have "ears to hear"...it's all in the hearing...
Quote
I'm not quite sure what you mean by confirmed by the holy spirit. What was confirmed, and how was it confirmed.
Check out all the times we are instructed in "hearing"...this is how it was confirmed to me...while studying the Word...these instructions from Jesus jumped out at me and said the same thing I was told before...It is all in the Hearing ... and we are told this if we have had our ears opened and can "hear" the Spirit over man...
1Co 14:21-22a
¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign ( not to them that believe, but) to them that believe not...
Joh 4:48
Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Joh 20:29-31
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
It's not so much in the "seeing" either because now we are asked to  "see, speak, hear" in the Spirit...
Joh 4:24
God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 20:30-31
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye (His disciples, not in His presence physically) might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing (by hearing) ye might have life through his name....

Sorry but this brings to  mind another idea of men...
Jesus had Disciples that He prepared to go out into the earth and witness about Him...what they saw (eyewitnesses) and heard...I don't remember Him putting anyone in "rank" like this 5-fold ministry concept...each and every one were equal...that being Witnesses... (by the way they are also "prophets" because they were Witnesses to Jesus, testifying about Him...
Re 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren (equal) that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God ...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Jesus was the last and Greatest Prophet to come or will ever come...witnessing and testifying what His Father told Him...now the disciple/prophets witness and testify of Jesus and what he said...but you must remember that all of what He said came directly from His Father...so, in a "court of law" I suppose we are testifying to "hear-say"... unless we hear in the Spirit because ...
God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I sure can get off track..back to the 5-fold ministry of men...which is men's idea but if you study Jesus and what He did and what He asked us to do then you would know that the "5-Fold" ministry is that pertaining to us...seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, hearing ....our "ministry" is in our 5 senses...but remember...
God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
...all of our 5-fold ministry must move in the Spirit ...and not in the earthly senses of man...once you have "your ministry" under control you will never fall and you will be an Overcomer with Christ ...

While writing this other verses came to mind which now I don't know what...but in writing this I was taught things I never knew before... THIS is your "fruit"...speaking out the Word...in doing so you will be given 100 fold in return...not "things" but knowledge of and from the Father...He opens up our senses to take in more...that is the "filling" that you empty out to others...so you are "dailey being given Bread/Word...and not new added to old but new added to new...if you are empty and hungry...everytime I say that word "hungry" I get the image of baby birds in a nest with momma standing over them with food...their beaks and mouths at this point in life are 80% of their size...they are all mouth and it is wide, wide open...wanting ...expecting... needing... what shall be given them ...the nourishment they need to live and grow into maturity...to sail off into the clouds...
What a picture, HUH?
and this thought occured to me as I wrote..."I am boring these people with only me second post..." but right on the heels of that thought came this one..."Get empty, get hungry and I will fill you..." This is the additude Jesus had and we need to have...Speak your piece whether they hear or not...because it is only to our benefit we care...out with the old and in with the new...we "sow" our old out into the world and that is all we are asked to do ...Really !!! We need not stick around to "water" because that is up to the Holy Spirit with the Water of Life...and you thought His burden wasn't light/Light...someone else plowed, we sow, and another waters ... His yoke is easy...
Tell you what, I could go on but I am emtied sufficiently for now...early in the day and should have provisions for later in case the oppertunity presents itself...
Keep this in mind..
Mr 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them....
...I am off, shakin' dust, if need be...

Love and Blessings, Rhoda
Love and Blessings, Rhoda 

nicoengelbrecht

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2005, 01:26:58 AM »
ok nico im back.
thanks for distinguishin worship from praise.

Omari,
Praise is to honour, worship and express admiration for God, and in church services praise can have more than one practical ways to worship God.  Especially in the statement of our faith, hymns are also sung to praise God during worship.
Worship is also to go to a religious ceremony.  To have a feeling of respect and admiration to God.  The way you express this respect and admiration includes hyms that is sung to praise God. 
The principles regarding worship is the same as for praise.  Whether it is in the synagogue where the apostles worshipped because they took over many synagogues and used them as assemblies or in church. 

Hebrews 13:14-1714 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. 15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 
Because of Christ’s death as a sin offering, or through him, believers are to demonstrate conduct befitting redeemed ones


 Hebr 13 (vv. 14-17). (1) They are to fix their hope not in the OT ordinances, but in the heavenly city and in the heavenly prospect; (2) they are to give praise and thanksgiving to God, since the fruit of the lips ought to be the overflow of the full heart; (3) they must show benevolence of all sorts or kinds, which God will not forget; and (4) they are to be obedient and submissive. Pleasing God might ultimately be reduced to three fundamental practices or attitudes, all of which are named in this passage—praise, obedience, and submission. These need little comment in light of NT truth. Benevolence naturally follows. In verse 17 submission practically relates to the attitude of believers to their own leaders. With these words of responsibility laid on followers and leaders alike, the writer closes the practical or exhortatory composition that began with
 Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 
The following is a hymn of praise as a poetic statement of true doctrine: 
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Words of Praise offered must be doctrinally correct.  Read again what I wrote on worship. Again in spirit and in truth.

nicoengelbrecht

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2005, 02:31:07 AM »

This was given to me some time ago and since then it has been confirmed to me quit a few times...
( "given" and confirmed not by man but by the Holy Spirit while "chewing the cud" of His Word )

Rhoda

Rhoda,
I agree with what you say and that you have spiritual understanding of scripture. I also appreciate your modern version. 

That what was “given” to you is your spiritual understanding of scripture.

 Hearing is that miraculous understanding of the meaning of scripture which God uses to communicate His message to man.  You cannot hear unless you are reborn.  God has to open your eyes and ears to spiritual understanding by his sovereign grace.  That comes with regeneration by the Holy Spirit.  Even though you might hear the message physically in you own language it does not need translation but interpretation to it’s spiritual understanding and you can only hear this if God opens your deaf, blind and makes your dead spirit alive unto Christ.  Lazarus was such a type of spiritually dead, he could not hear, see, of raise himself, completely helpless and at God’s mercy to raise him up spiritually.  So that no man can boast of any work, not even having faith because that was a gift.  We believe because we were given faith to believe, that is why faith is an act of man. 

John 16: 13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
 

We believe that the only way of interpreting Scripture or the Word of God is with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit. Such an interpretation will always reveal how the Lord Jesus has fulfilled the Law of God by humbling Himself and going to the Cross and rising from the dead for the salvation of all those who believe. The Lord Jesus Christ clearly showed this to be the only true way of interpreting and expounding the Scriptures by spiritually opening man’s understanding to them (Lk.24: 27, 32, 45). Interpreting the Scriptures by the Spirit, reveals the Lord Jesus or His works. By judging interpretation in this way, temptations and mistakes in interpreting the word are spiritually discerned and avoided and can be repented of. The Old Testament points to the blessing of men by the Lord Jesus being made a curse for us. Denominational differences, sects and cults, come from mistakes made by different carnal interpretations of God’s voice in the Scriptures.  I

Isaiah 28: 11-12   For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

 
1.Cor.14: 21   In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.

1.Cor.14: 22a)   Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.
   


This was judgment for Israel that because they did not hear the gospel will go to all nations.  It is God’s prerogative who hears. 

I include a poem of a friend of mine.
If TONGUES as spoken by the Spirit of God are different in any way from the message of the written Word of God, then there must be another gospel that man knows nothing about, which of course is preposterous.

Let’s come at last to the GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT
so please remain prayerful in order to see it
God spoke in different languages at Pentecost
to get the attention of those who were lost


 He did not speak something with no structure at all
if He did, how on earth could they hear His call
the mighty works of God were declared that morning
 and gibberish was not “TONGUED” to hear God’s calling

It was a language which can only be founded
on Scripture which must be fully expounded
from  God’s mighty Words in  the Law of old
which is the way to prophesy and to unfold



The glorious truths and the hidden meaning
which the Holy Spirit will start revealing
unless the TONGUES are interpreted for all to hear
it will just be words spoken into the air

The understanding and meaning must bring light
or the hearers will be left in a senseless plight
it is like reading Scripture and with no further ado
not explaining what’s what or who is who

Reading a lesson with no explanation
causes confusion and consternation
it’s like a foreigner talking into the air
and leaves the hearers trapped in a snare

Jesus’ Words are Spirit and they are Life
so in order not to have confusion and strife
the dividing of the Word must be correct
and it will be necessary to divide and dissect

Dividing asunder spirit and soul
so twisted Scriptures can’t take their toll
we would do well to listen to the apostle Paul
who spoke with TONGUES more than them all

A brilliant student of the Law of old
astute and learned and exceeding bold
he explained it was imperative to open
the TONGUES in the church that were spoken

What use were those TONGUES however grand
if not one soul present could understand
what was really being prayed or said
as they sounded meaningless and dead

That’s why some had to judge and preside
to discuss what was prophesied and to decide
whether the interpretations were false or true
and whether they all shared the same view

The mind sets in concrete if you persist
in speaking in gibberish and you insist
that this is the “TONGUES” that Paul says is a gift
cause then you will have to agonize and sift

Word from feeling and truth from experience
and your understanding will be all at variance
the mindset is strong as steel and ingrained
whilst the Scriptures are twisted and profaned
How do I know it is so hard to see
I know because that mindset once was in me
a dramatic conversion and a grateful heart
an understanding of sin and a brand new start

A teaching of a baptism in the Spirit
with “TONGUES” as the sign I really did get it
I thought it for real when I spoke in “TONGUES”
but sadly they were the counterfeit ones

Manipulation, hype and strong auto-suggestion
not enough Word in me even to question
for scriptural proof of this “TONGUE-TALKING” scam
which is what Satan devised as a master plan

To lure Christians into a maze of deceit
and using these “TONGUES” with an air of conceit
thinking that they are in fact most superior
with “dead NON-TONGUE-TALKERS” quite inferior

They are told they are the Christians for the hour
“spirit-led”, exciting stuff packed with heady power
yes, sincere and zealous, but sincerely wrong
praying oft times in “TONGUES” and also in song

Devouring “Christian books” that were the rage
and watching the antics of those on the stage
“interpretations” that came from the heart of man
and “prophecies” that were false and a sham

Dashed hopes and false dreams that never came true
this happened to me and maybe to you……..
so get down on your knees and pray for the truth
and ask God to deliver you from this big spoof

You will leap for joy when you see what TONGUES are
and I can assure you that they are better by far
than the hoax that has fooled our Saviour’s bride
and taken her for a long and disastrous ride

“TONGUES” that were birthed at Azusa Street
where Christendom saw truth and error meet
in a cauldron of hype and auto-suggestion
where no one even thought to question

Why those present were lying on the floor
and begging God to give them more
speaking what some Red Indians spoke
and other unregenerate and pagan folk
If the truth about those “TONGUES” were told
why weren’t they spoken by wise men of old
would God only bestow this “blessing and power”
on the few Christians who live at this late hour

The Language of Zion is God’s gift to believers
the Language of Gibberish is a “gift” from deceivers
the Language of Zion is God’s gift from heaven
pure, undefiled, and with no man-made leaven

When these TONGUES are unlocked the power flows
and the blinding and misunderstanding goes
because the MEANING is the DUNAMIS from on high
and the Scriptures tell truth and do not lie

So yes, TONGUES are really for all
and are not the “other ones” at all
so, it is good to speak with TONGUES you see
but you must then prophesy I am sure you agree

This language of Zion must be expounded
or speaking TONGUES out is quite unfounded
and the people listening will say you are mad
which really would be exceedingly sad!

Not all speak with TONGUES but they really should
as they are sententious, and precious and very good
when explained they give life and make you whole
as they are full of meaning and give joy to the soul

Make sure you interpret the TONGUES of the Bible
the ones that are infallible and always reliable
and not fabricated from the mind of man
which indeed does happen but it’s just a sham

Once a sign has led us to that place
where we meet with Jesus face to face
then the work of that sign is done
and so is the purpose of that TONGUE

When ears to hear have heard a TONGUE
it ceases for them and God’s work is done
those hearers have heard and have entered God’s rest
and they are truly enriched and spiritually blessed

Prophecy is not for the future or a personal word
as this in its context would just be absurd
it is expounding and opening to profit withal
and to exhort and comfort lest we should fall
So the TONGUES AS OF FIRE are from God above
full of His power and full of His love
the NEW TONGUES from God and not of men
oh, to sing them and pray them again and again


Nico.

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2005, 10:55:35 AM »

this all seems pretty clear to me. so when i sing and dance in my church (not temple or synagouge) to is it possible that God is pleased with my "Praise"??

Are you break dancing, dancing a jig, belly dancing, holy rolling, or just doing the calipso?

hopeinGod

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2005, 08:56:59 PM »
Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God, spoke Jesus.  The power of God comes via the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a second experience apart from intial justification, promised to those who believe and ask for it, given to believers to lead and guide them into all truth, to sanctify inwardly, and for the manifestation of God's hand in the body through the gifts of wisdom, healing, miracles, etc. 

The time is not passed for this baptism or the use of these gifts as the body still needs this power to overcome the power of sin in our lives individually and corporately as a body.  We also need to know what the Lord is speaking today, a "word in due season," not some stored up, filed away sermon that's as old as denial itself.

It is the foolishness of this world the God uses to confound the so-called "wise."   

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2005, 12:31:34 AM »
You are trying to bring Pentecostal/Charismatic experiences over here by misinterpretation of scriptures.

Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God

This scripture has nothing to do with false Pentecostal/Charismatic experiences.  This scripture deals with the resurrection of the dead.

We don't need gibberish tongues or any mystic experiences in order to overcome sin.

Ps 119:9  Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word[/b]
Ps 119:10  With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Ps 119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.



DSOUZAANTHONY

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Re: Is Speaking in Tongues Gibberish to God?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2005, 04:26:19 AM »
Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God, spoke Jesus.  The power of God comes via the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a second experience apart from intial justification, promised to those who believe and ask for it

What you are talking about is a no-hope-in-god gospel, not hopeingod. It is a perversion of the way that Christ showed us we should go. Scripture does not say that baptism in the spirit is a second experience apart from justification, and in fact this is contrary to scripture. Baptism of the Spirit cleanses, justifies, gives wisdom and truth, and is the only power of God inb man.

 Proverb 19:2-3
 "Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.
  The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD".

 The spirit that leads and guide believers into all truth is given to all believers and sanctifes them inwardly. You are not using the scriptures correctly. The manifestation of God's hand in the body is through our works through God's spirit, not through signs and wonders and supposed miraculous signs gifts.


Quote
It is the foolishness of this world the God uses to confound the so-called "wise."   

 Matt 12:39
 "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

 2 Thess 2:9-10
 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

 These are the lying signs gifts of the devil, for those in the church who are not really saved and whpo have no hope in god.
"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

 


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