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Author Topic: Was Adam Created in God's Image?  (Read 28456 times)

Daniel

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2005, 12:42:03 PM »
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol


Hi Carol,

Are these the passage you are referring to?

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.


To which I commented:

"The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

I was merely making the observation that, in this context, it appears that God defines "perfect" as "one that feareth God, and eschweth evil".  This comment in no way negates the fact that true salvation is only possible because of Christ's righteousness/perfection, imputed to those He came to save.  Since Job was a true believer, the perfection described in the above verses are an onward manifestation (or fruit) of salvation.

Yet there is a different type of "perfection" that Adam had before the fall, which some are confusing with saving faith or the perfection of Christ's righteousness -- thus the reason for this debate.

I hope this helps clarify my comment.

judy
     The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).  It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
     Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."  It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
Also back to my question what is the image of God?
                                                                    Dan
                                                                               

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2005, 02:18:06 PM »
>>>
  The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).
<<<

The word perfect means different things depending upon the context. In other words, Christ being perfect means something different from Job being perfect. And Job being perfect means something different from Adam being "created perfect." i.e., Job could never be perfect in the sense Christ is because Job was a sinful man like the rest of us. Job also could not be perfect in the sense that Adam was in his creation (before the fall) because it was "EXPRESSLY" his fall into sin that forever put the stain of sin in man, Job and everyone else. BEFORE THAT, it wasn't there! That's a fundamental, basic tenet of Christian doctrine. Adam wasn't created in sin, He sinned Himself. Thus God is not responsible for sin, MAN is. Adam is the federal headship of man, in sin because "HE" brought it about.


Quote
>>>
It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
<<<

I don't think we can say that "dogmatically" simply on the basis that Adam sinned. Job sinned against God just as Adam sinned against God. The scriptures bear record of that. No, the real difference is that Adam was the "FIRST" to sin and come under the penalty of death.

Romans 6:23
  • "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace.

One:

Genesis 3:21
  • "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
The Lord says nothing capriciously, and God is using the image of His sacrificing an animal (illuistrated in his supplying skins) to clothe both Adam and Eve. This seems to be a sign that they too came under the Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's own sacrifice.

Two:

Genesis 3:15-16
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
  • Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee[/i]."
The Lord says nothing Capriciously, and God uses Eve as a symbol of the Church, the Woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam as her head. this seems to be confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
  • "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
  • Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety[/i]."
Three:

Adam and Eve brought up Godly children (for the most part) as Abel and seth, and this seems to run contrary to all the biblical norm of unsaved nations. Sorry to digress, but I don't find any dogmatic statements in scripture that say Adam was definately unsaved. The real difference between Adam and Job was that Adam was created by God from clay, without imperfection, having never sinned, and being in the paradise of God, in the Eden of God, created in the very image of God (a cherub is the very Image of God -Ezekiel 1:28) and was the federal headship of man.


Quote
>>>
Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."
<<<

How? It doesn't say iniquity was found in thee in Job 28:15. What's your point?


Quote
>>>
It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
<<<

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."

Ezekiel 18:4
  • "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
The soul that sins, dies. Adam didn't die until "THE DAY" that he ate of the tree. He was God's perfect creation until the day iniquity (sin) was found in him. Where's the mystery.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2005, 10:14:37 PM »
Judy I think you had said that you will not speak to me on this topic anymore...and I told you the same,but anyways since you have replied ....see the posts you have written and Tony has written ,you have denied the spiritual application cause if you had accepted the spiritual application then you would be in the same position that I am in.

You ignore 2 Corin 4:6 and refuse to comment on it....check what Tony has written he speaks about God sperating the day from night (literal) which I aggree but refuses to accept that when God says Let there be Light He was speaking about giving the Light of the Knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus christ(2Corin 4:6).And you have ignored that too...Ignoring is denying....so what are you talking about??????

please God rather than men because all men are liars but the Word of God is truth and cannot be chained.

Peace!!
Shoan

Erik Diamond

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2005, 10:40:26 PM »
Please give it a rest, Shoan.

I agreed with Tony's position on Adam and the Image of God. I agreed that Adam was CREATED in Image of God until he lost it when took bite of the fruit.  However, the Image of God (or Christ) were 'restored' to Adam, Eve AND all of God's children (not everyone else) during their lifetime SPIRITUALLY from the time Christ went to the Cross. Now you were complaing about spiritual application of "Light and Darkness".  May I suggest the following verses:

Zec 14:6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
 
Zec 14:7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14 is actually talking about the First Coming of Christ and the Cross. This chapter is about how the Salvation made possible for God's Elect. The Cross is the main point of Mankind. The living water coming from the Cross - half of it going back to former sea (For Old Testament Saints), and half of them going forward to the hinder sea (For New Testament Saints).

God is not controlled by time.  From Adam's time, God already saw Himself hung on the Cross thousands of years later. And apply that Salvation from the cross going back to Adam and have restored him to image of God/Christ again...spiritually. You see, God did created Adam literally until he disobeyed God. But in His Grace and Mercy, He did restore Adam to image of God... IN CHRIST. 

Now about the light and dark in Zech 14:1-7? Have we heard about it before?  ::)

Peace,
Erik Diamond

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2005, 10:57:41 PM »
Daniel,

Christ is the Image of God  2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
 
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation


Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Only by knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He sent is one brought into that image as one recieves eternal life  John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Adam never ate of the tree of life(symbol of Jesus Christ through whom we recieve eternal life and are brought into the image of God) so that clearly shows that he didnt bear the image of God before sin was imputed to him.

Adam already had the sinful nature in him but sin is not imputed where there is no law but when the law came he couldnt resist sin and he fell....Ge 3:6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So perfection in Adam was out of the question...Ezekiel 28 speaks about Satan.....The key verse in it "Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

Thou sealest up the sum(the word there is mistranslated as sum..it should be pattern)...it's only Satan who seals the pattern(gospel) and not Adam....The language here is as though he was perfect before he fell see what Jesus had to say about him John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He abode not in truth and is a REBEL and causes every one to REBEL against God...from day one that he was created his intention was to murder..seal up the pattern.

So that remains with Christ as the only perfect one who is divine and who couldn't sin as He is the image of God...there are those who are in this thread who beat around the bush by bringing Job in the discussion...obviously those in Christ are perfect as sin is paid for and they are brought into the image of God as in principle the Lamb was slain before the foundation of this world.

It is only Christ as a Son shares perfect relationship with the Father Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Peace!!
Shoan

Daniel

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #110 on: April 19, 2005, 07:32:22 AM »
>>>
  The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).
<<<

The word perfect means different things depending upon the context. In other words, Christ being perfect means something different from Job being perfect. And Job being perfect means something different from Adam being "created perfect." i.e., Job could never be perfect in the sense Christ is because Job was a sinful man like the rest of us. Job also could not be perfect in the sense that Adam was in his creation (before the fall) because it was "EXPRESSLY" his fall into sin that forever put the stain of sin in man, Job and everyone else. BEFORE THAT, it wasn't there! That's a fundamental, basic tenet of Christian doctrine. Adam wasn't created in sin, He sinned Himself. Thus God is not responsible for sin, MAN is. Adam is the federal headship of man, in sin because "HE" brought it about.


Quote
>>>
It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
<<<

I don't think we can say that "dogmatically" simply on the basis that Adam sinned. Job sinned against God just as Adam sinned against God. The scriptures bear record of that. No, the real difference is that Adam was the "FIRST" to sin and come under the penalty of death.

Romans 6:23
  • "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace.

One:

Genesis 3:21
  • "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
The Lord says nothing capriciously, and God is using the image of His sacrificing an animal (illuistrated in his supplying skins) to clothe both Adam and Eve. This seems to be a sign that they too came under the Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's own sacrifice.

Two:

Genesis 3:15-16
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
  • Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee[/i]."
The Lord says nothing Capriciously, and God uses Eve as a symbol of the Church, the Woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam as her head. this seems to be confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
  • "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
  • Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety[/i]."
Three:

Adam and Eve brought up Godly children (for the most part) as Abel and seth, and this seems to run contrary to all the biblical norm of unsaved nations. Sorry to digress, but I don't find any dogmatic statements in scripture that say Adam was definately unsaved. The real difference between Adam and Job was that Adam was created by God from clay, without imperfection, having never sinned, and being in the paradise of God, in the Eden of God, created in the very image of God (a cherub is the very Image of God -Ezekiel 1:28) and was the federal headship of man.


Quote
>>>
Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."
<<<

How? It doesn't say iniquity was found in thee in Job 28:15. What's your point?


Quote
>>>
It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
<<<

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."

Ezekiel 18:4
  • "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
The soul that sins, dies. Adam didn't die until "THE DAY" that he ate of the tree. He was God's perfect creation until the day iniquity (sin) was found in him. Where's the mystery.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

      I made a mistake, I meant Ezekiel 28:15.

Daniel

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #111 on: April 19, 2005, 12:10:00 PM »
What I'am coming to understand is the the "Image of God" is Christ ( according to some of the posts on this thread). 
     Gen.1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female."
     If the image of God is Christ, then it follows that Adam and Eve were the image of Christ.  This seems like the salvation message.  Can it be that God is showing us the Gospel before Adam fell?
That all fall short of the glory of God and need to be saved through Christ.
                                                                             Dan

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #112 on: April 19, 2005, 12:29:50 PM »
>>>
Gen.1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female."
     If the image of God is Christ, then it follows that Adam and Eve were the image of Christ.  This seems like the salvation message.  Can't it be that God is showing us the Gospel before Adam fell?
That all fall short of the glory of God and need to be saved through Christ.
                                                                             Dan
<<<

Absolutely! That's the "spiritual" significance of the "VERY LITERAL" history of the creation of man in Adam and Eve, and the covering of their nakedness (sin) by the sacrifice for them that God made to cover that nakedness.

The problem with the "other" view is that it denies the literal application and holds it's not really true that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and fell in the garden. Rather than accept that both are the true witness of the scriptures, one is denied without any Biblical justification.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #113 on: April 19, 2005, 12:48:56 PM »
Stacia,
  Biblical forum.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

If you don't have any Biblical defense, support, questions or answers to add to the discussion, please refrain from posting in it.

Thanks for your cooperation.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #114 on: April 19, 2005, 11:59:19 PM »
Tony U said,
The problem with the "other" view is that it denies the literal application and holds it's not really true that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and fell in the garden. Rather than accept that both are the true witness of the scriptures, one is denied without any Biblical justification.

Literal application to Adam doesn't arise at all as the scriptures clearly prove otherwise....The scriptures speak the truth and gives us the whole picture.

Ge 1:26-27 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
 Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
(NKJV)
When was this new man created???? The elect were predestined and were chosen before the foundation of this world .


Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Let Us make man in our image.....God through Jesus Christ saves His elect and brings them into His image....The new man creation was through the work of the cross.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge 1:3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
Joh 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The word of God tells us to compare spiritual things with spiritual:1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Jesus said Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The word of God is spritual and therefore every part of it is spritual.It is clear from the word of God that when God said let Us make Man in Our image He made the New man created in His image...the elect conformed to the image of God and the image of God is Christ.Giving Man dominion over the fish,cattle,beast etc is the regin that the elect share in the kingdom of Christ.

Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

The high view of Adam is blasphemy of the Word of God as only Christ is perfect and is the image of God and brings mankind(the elect,including Adam) into His image at salvation.

If Adam had the image of God he would know God and would share perfect relationship with the Father.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

By saying Adam ws perfect before sinning you make Jesus a liar as Jesus declares no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son.Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus christ whom He sent. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Did Adam eat of the tree of life??? Did he have eternal life before he sinned??? can eternal life be lost by sining??? Can Adam sin after having perfect relationship with the Father??? if he could then Jesus could also sin which is again blasphemy.

There is lot of biblical justification which has been posted,now if you think you are right and want to hardern your heart then reply to every scripture posted to prove my postion is wrong.

My postion is ONLY CHRIST IS PRE-EMINENT and yours  ADAM ALSO IS PRE-EMINENT AND SO IS CHRIST.

Peace!!
Shoan

Kira

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2005, 11:03:44 AM »

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."



Tony, Thank you for your always interesting expositions of scripture. I love how you explain things on a basic level in plain language so that even a slow witted person like myself can understand it. I agree with your assessment of these verses. I have been learning a great deal from your posts, but I have a question concerning this passage.

 Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?


K I R A 

Erik Diamond

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2005, 11:13:48 AM »
Quote
Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?

"Us" and "our" are referred to Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They all are working together on creation. Yet they are also one and the same. There is no other god.

Hope this helps.

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

andreas

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2005, 08:08:04 PM »
<<<does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our">>>

- kai eipen o qeos poihswmen anqrwpon kat¢ eikona hmeteran kai kaq¢ omoiwsin   
(The Septuagint.-Not the original,but a translation in Greek.)

Yes ,it does.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #118 on: April 21, 2005, 05:15:34 AM »
>>>
 Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?
<<<

Kira,
  It's always good to hear that someone is taking the word of God seriously, as it's so rare these days.
 
  Actually, in the original manuscripts the words "us" and "our" do not really appear, but the Hebrew word "God" is elohym or elohym, and is the plural pronoun. i.e., elohym is a form of the word "El" meaning God. In the Hebrew language the "ym" ending imputes plurality. Thus, "Elohym" is the plural from of the word "El," so that the "us" and "our" are explicitly implied and therefore very accurate translations.

The "One God" inspired in Genesis written in "terms" of us and our, is to indicate a plural within one. And this is as we would expect "understanding" that this refers to the Trinity, the three personages of the Godhead.
 
nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2005, 10:49:27 AM »

Daniel,

  I don't mean to be curt, but do you understand the "concept" of Rules?

  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

  Either abide by the rules, or don't post here. I'm not interested in opinions without biblical support. As clearly stated in the rules, and which you have been reminded of. There are lots of other forums around the web that you can go to if you just want idle conversation, untenable proclamations and agreement with a pat on the back. But this isn't one of them. If you like, I can send you a list. But this is a Bible forum, discussing and defending doctrines from the bible.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 


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