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Author Topic: Was Adam Created in God's Image?  (Read 28452 times)

Sandy

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2005, 04:04:47 PM »
Tony,

I truly appreciate the time and effort you give of yourself in this forum.  I didn't mean to present straw men arguments, and you are right, had I really taken the time to carefully read this entire thread, I may have realized the point I made had already been made.  Two things troubled me about this 85 page article, one, as you have clearly pointed out, is that the Bible does indeed unambiguously state that Adam was created in the image of God.  If he was, then he wasn't...well then something happened.  Either he fell through transgression, and lost it, or he never lost that image at all i.e.he never fell, never sinned???

The second was the opinion that Ezekiel 28:14 speaks of Satan as the anointed cherub.  I'm pretty sure that you and I agree that angels, fallen or otherwise are not referred to as cherubim.  I have spent a great amount of time studying your article about cherubim.  Thank you too for the solid, biblically supported articles you have given us. 

Since I have great respect for your wisdom and insight into biblical understanding I am trusting you, as a sincere son of God to guide me on this topic.  I thank God for people like you, and John, and so many others in this community.  Mt. Retreat has become my shining beacon of True Light and for that I praise, and thank God for all of you and it. 

Sandy   

     

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2005, 01:01:15 AM »
Tony,
You missed out on so many scriptures posted by me and dsouzaanthony regarding this topic and have not replied to even one except for Gen1:26 where you say God is speaking about Adam being created in the image of God.

Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son (not even Adam)except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.You make Jesus a liar as if Adam had the image of God which is Jesus Christ then he he would know the Father and the Son which means he would have never sinned.

Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

Where did the sin come from in this world ??.....In the Garden of Eden when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that was the law and sinful nature was already in Adam which came to light through the law.

It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God

2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
 Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


 Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

By comapring Adam to Christ as being sinless perfect and in perfect relationship with the Father you are blaspeming Christ who is the only One who has a perfect relationship with the Father.

When God said Let there be light,He was not creating the Light He was bringing forth the Light(Christ) who already existed.If you think that is Literal light then you don't have hearing ears and need to pray to God that he would give you.You mean to say Paul is wasting his time by saying in 2Corin4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..

Where did this earth come from which was void and on which was darkness and where did these waters come from before even God creating anything...These are spiritual pictures to show that this earth and the waters (symbolic for people) are in darkness without the Light who is Christ..(Christ is pre-eminent and not Adam)...I don't deny the fact that God created a literal universe but in the creation account God is preaching the Gospel that the creation He is He is creating is formless and void and full of darkness without the Light Christ.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly


Man is only brought to the image of God at salvation....and for your kind information I wasn't trying to be a Greek expert but was just showing what the inteded meaning of those verses mean.If you are right then God is a liar... Ro 3:4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

You forgot 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation(not renewed creation); old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.(not renewed creation).

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
If God had created Adam in His image and restores us into that image in Christ then why would He create new heavens and the new earth for His children...He could have kept His renewed man in His renewed earth.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells

Re 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea

Re 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
(NKJV)

1Co 2:9 But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
(NKJV)


God plan is not cyclic but it is linear..it's new and not renew.

 Ro 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

You forgot the word firstborn among many brethren  in Ro 8:29..that means only Christ is the image  of God and brings His brethren(the elect) into that image when they are saved which includes Adam as God saved
him after he sinned and rebelled but not that Adam had the image before the fall ..This is the doctrine of pre-eminence of Christ

You need to be humbling before the  scriptures but you always try to prove you are right and that you know everything but what you are trying to defend is baseless and misinterpretaion of scriptures including Ezekiel 28 where God speaks about Satan and you say it's Adam...If you are right then Adam is lost as those verses say that God will lay him to the ground(under the wrath of God) and make him a spectacle to the kings of the earth(the elect).

The words "anointed", "cherub" and "covereth" (Hebrew originals) always refer to God except in Ezek. 28:14. Also the precious stones in vs. 13 approximate, but differ in significant respects, the High Priest's breastplate. Thus we are dealing with an entity in Ezek. 28 that looks a whole lot like Christ -- but isn't.

>A key is the phrase "sealest up the sum."

Evidence for Satan being in view in Ezek. 28 is from Ezek. 43:11. As you know the temple (and the tabernacle before it) was built according to a *pattern* in heaven with God. God showed it (Christ crucified the outworking of the gospel through His work/faith) to Moses who copied it in the construction of the tabernacle and to David who passed it along to his son, Solomon, who ordered the building of the temple after it. The pattern was spiritual and resided with God and provided salvation in accordance with the elective program. The temple was an earthy copy that pointed to the pattern, but did not itself save anyone. The original pattern is the true gospel of Christ crucified and resides with God in heaven.

O.K. now look at Ezek. 43:10-12. The context beginning with Ezek. 43:1 and following is very important to have in mind. The glory of the Lord comes from the East and fills the house of God. Then God instructs Ezekiel to show the house which is full of the glory of God to the house of Israel so that they will be ashamed of their iniquities. AND they are told to measure the pattern (tokniyth:H8508). As we see from the next verse (vs. 11) this is the pattern of the spiritual temple. Several things are really interesting here:

1. Tokniyth, the word for pattern is only used twice in the Hebrew OT. This really important word is used by God in just two places -- here in Ezek. 43:10 AND in Ezek. 28:12 where it is mistranslated "sum." The context of Ezek. 43:11 clearly confirms that the translation of tokniyth closest to God's usage is "pattern." Also in Ezek. 28:12 "sealest" is chatham which in Dan. 12:4 and 9 means "prevent from coming out," "seal" so that no one can see it until God allows them to. So in Ezek. 28:12 what Satan does is suppress the gospel so it is sealed up from view. "Sum" is rejected as incorrect and "pattern" (in the spiritual, true gospel sense) becomes the preferred translation. Together with the correct biblical understanding of chatham (sealed), this puts a whole new light on Ezek. 28:12 and makes it additional evidence that Satan is in view.


Consider the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Tradition would have it that Adam by using his supposed free will could have (by resisting temptation) rendered the Lamb's purposed sacrifice and love for the elect both superfluous and irrelevant. Did the purposes of God to display His mercy and love really run the risk of being blocked by the actions of the creature? Did Adam really possess so much power that he could either instigate God's salvation plan by rebelling or render it superfluous by remaining faithful?


Peace!!
Shoan

Sandy

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2005, 05:15:51 AM »
Tony,

After reflecting on my last post, I wanted to clarify my comments.  I did not mean to imply that I or anyone else should blindly follow you because you have proven to possess great biblical understanding.  What I should have said was that I need to look at these things bearing in mind the points you have made.

1.  Scriptures unambigous language...Adam made in the image of God.
2.  Since cherub is a symbolic figure representing attributes, and glory of God, Satan does not fit.  So there is only one who could fit the description given us in Ezekiel.  Who, since it cannot be Satan, is said to be "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee?"

I trust this will put yours, and all others minds as ease.  I will try not to simply follow, but I will also try to remain open enough that I may be gently led in the right direction.  Again, thank you for all the help you have given me as I attempt to learn more about our Lord through diligent study.

Sandy 

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2005, 10:38:32 AM »
>>>
I truly appreciate the time and effort you give of yourself in this forum.  I didn't mean to present straw men arguments,

I trust this will put yours, and all others minds as ease.
<<<

Sandy, it's no problem. We all have feet of clay, including myself. My comments to you came off a little stronger than intended, I hope you are not offended by it. I type in a rush because of time constraints and if I don't re-read what I typed, that often lends itself to posts that sound hostile that are not intended to be. Especially when I bold out something for emphasis, like "Stawman."

Concerning your valid comment about there being truth in this teaching, I've found that there's always free cheese in a mouse trap. But their starting point is assumption, and that leads to their conclusion that man was not created in the image of God. This is backward and flawed. Their starting point should be that "Man was created in the image of God," and then go from there. Then their conclusions would have to be in harmony and consistent with God's word, rather than an offense to it.

As for my knowledge or insights, I go with the old adage that, "It's amazing how much you've got to know before you learn how little you know." That's me. I know enough to know that I don't know anything in the big scheme of things. But I thank God for the knowledge that he has given.

And appreciate your very charitable comments.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2005, 11:36:30 AM »
>>>
Tony,
You missed out on so many scriptures posted by me and dsouzaanthony regarding this topic and have not replied to even one except for Gen1:26
<<<

dsouzaanthony must speak for himself, unless you are one and the same. That way he won't have to deny something you said, or you something he said. As far as I know you are two separate individuals with your own personal beliefs. I don't want to confuse what you say with what he says, and vice versa.

No, I didn't miss out on them. I don't have the time, nor feel the need to comment on every single post made on this forum. Especially when I'm busy or others are addressing the issues. And I've certainly heard all this before, since it's not an original thought. I pop in now because I have a little free time. I might just as quickly pop out again.


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>>>
..Gen1:26 where you say God is speaking about Adam being created in the image of God.
<<<

I say? Me thinks that you are confusing me with God. I didn't say anything, I simply bear witness to the "whole" testimony of God, in harmony with itself, rather than a few select verses.

Genesis 1:26-29
  • "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
  • So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
  • And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
  • And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."

One must resort to all sorts of exegetical and hermeneutical gymnastics in order not to see that God is plainly speaking of Adam. When the text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual, historical fashion, there can be no other conclusion. The word of God is the anchor of our faith, and it's static. It's not something that can be shifted around spiritually to conform to our own theories or ideas. When it says something, it means what it says. i.e., when God said Christ healed the sick, then He very LITERALLY healed the sick, but that didn't mean that the healing didn't have a very spiritual application. Your basic logic is flawed and your assumptions Biblically untenable. Thus your conclusions are misguided.


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You make Jesus a liar as if Adam had the image of God which is Jesus Christ then he he would know the Father and the Son which means he would have never sinned.
<<<

Once again, that is "your conclusion," not something that is a biblical principle. Nowhere does God use the words "created perfect" to only apply to Jesus Christ. You keep making statements as if they are written in stone, but they will not stand in light of the scriptures. And they won't stand the test of sound biblical reasoning either. This can very easily be proved if we just open our minds and not look at scripture with tunnel vision. e.g.

Ezekiel 28:15
  • "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee."

The very fact that Whoever God is talking about was clearly created PERFECT, and yet God very clearly says that he/it/they fell into sin, blows your whole theory of Christ being the only one perfect right out of the water. Perfect means sinless, not deity. You see, this is what I/We have been trying to tell you. Your definition of perfect is not always God's definition of perfect. i.e., something created "perfect" was clearly not Christ, yet it was clearly perfect, and could sin, and indeed did sin! How can you even formulate an argument against this? It's undeniable! It's the "unadulterated" word of God. So at the very least, your whole theory that because he was created perfect, must mean Christ, is automatically undeniably wrong!


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>>>
Where did the sin come from in this world ??.....In the Garden of Eden when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that was the law and sinful nature was already in Adam which came to light through the law.
<<<

No, without the law written on man's heart (a characteristic of God's likeness in man) there can be no sin. For sin comes only when there is a breaking of God's law. Before God said "don't eat," there was no law, thus no sin imputed to Adam. Once God said don't eat, then Adam eating would be sin (breaking the law) to him.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."

Without transgression of the law, there is no sin imputed to man. When the law came, when God said don't eat of that tree, "then" there was sin imputed to Adam when he did eat.

Again, this is the denial of the doctrine of original sin which stained mankind in Adam, which is essentially a denial of the gospel of Christ. If in fact sin was already in Adam before the fall, then there was no original sin, which was this eating, and thus no real fall into death. Then Adam was already fallen and the Bible is playing games with us declaring that death came by "that sin" of Adam. God Forbid! So who are we to believe? Man, or the word of God?

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Romans 5:12
  • "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
1st Corinthians 15:21-22
  • "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
  • For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

It's like you are trying desperately to construct a picture puzzle, but you are determined not to use "all of the pieces" in the box. The problem with that is, you get a picture that fits in some places, but the picture you are seeing is not the "complete" picture. e.g.

Matthew 4:6-7
  • "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
  • Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Not that I'm equating you to Satan, I'm using this as an example. Satan had some pieces to the picture but not all. So when he gives his picture, based on the few pieces that he has chosen to show, Christ corrects him by telling him there are more pieces than what he has used. He says that, "it is written again (more)." In other words, there is more God has written beside the verse Satan produced for Christ. i.e., we have to take the whole word of God in harmony with these other words of God, in order to come to "correct" conclusions. ie.e., yes God has his messengers uphold us, but no that doesn't mean we can tempt the Lord God.


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>>>
It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God
<<<

It was not only Christ who was perfect (according to scripture). That makes no sense! If it was only Christ who can be perfect, then "who is" Ezekiel 28:15 talking about? Quite obviously, you do err in your assumption that only Christ was spoken of as perfect. was He perfect until iniquity was found in Him? No. Your erroneous assumptions is why you are wrong in your conclusions. If your foundation is not built solidly upon the Rock of the word of God (in its entirety), then your house will not stand when the rains come and the winds blow (Matthew 7:27).


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>>>
By comparing Adam to Christ as being sinless perfect and in perfect relationship with the Father you are blaspeming Christ who is the only One who has a perfect relationship with the Father.
<<<

Again, Is God in Ezekiel 28:15 equating the king of Tyrus as he that was created perfect until he sinned blaspheming Himself? Of course not. So then, the problem is not the word of God, or man being created perfect, the problem is man's personal opinions and private interpretation "of" what created perfect "MUST" mean. The truth is, besides Christ's perfection, God speaks of other created perfection that has since fallen into sin. This cannot be Christ and more importantly, cannot be denied. ..at least not Righteously!


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When God said Let there be light,He was not creating the Light He was bringing forth the Light(Christ) who already existed.
<<<

He was creating Christ "that already existed?" ...Huh? ? ?  He was not creating the light, He was creating Christ who represents light? That's your "private interpretation," but it is not borne out in the Biblical record.

Genesis 1:3-5
  • "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  • And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
  • And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Again, when the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL Light, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights, a separation of both. Days and nights which He consequently made permanent by placing a Very LITERAL sun in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around. You know, things that very LITERALLY exist today? That all these things have spiritual significance is not in debate, your private interpretations that God did not create literal light and literally divide it from the darkness is what is at issue. Was Christ once not divided from the darkness? Because you've given no Biblical proofof any of these things. Only scriptures that you "interpret" to mean that, this is the case. But truth is not built upon conjecture.


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If you think that is Literal light then you don't have hearing ears and need to pray to God that he would give you.
<<<

OK, that's your judgment. My stance is that without biblical proof, it's all just your unproven and unbiblical theories.


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Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

       ---- Straw Man Arguments Snipped ---

<<<

No one denies that Christ is the light of the world. That clearly does not "negate" the Sun being the light of the world also. Christ was not created by God saying, let there be Light. God did not see the christ that he created was good and then divided "that" light from the darkness. You talk a good game, but the proof is nowhere to be found. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.


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Man is only brought to the image of God at salvation....and for your kind information I wasn't trying to be a Greek expert but was just showing what the inteded meaning of those verses mean.
<<<

Unfortunately, you're being disingenuous. No, what you were "really" doing was deliberately wresting or twisting the word "regeneration" in an ostentatious manner so that it would appear by superfluous language that you did a very learned study and it's meaning was new. I guess you thought that if you spoke in a pedantic manner, no one would bother to check what you said to see if it really was accurate. I'm sorry to say, it wasn't!

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
  • "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
  • That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."[/i]
The word of God is for instruction and correction. So if the correct definition of the word regeneration doesn't fit into your own personal interpretation, I'm sorry. But I make no apologies for bringing to light the sleight of hand tactics. Being Re-Created or Re-Born or Re-Generated (not generated) in Christ didn't fit your teaching of NEW, and so you feigned that regeneration didn't really mean re-generation. Unless of course, you "really" didn't know? Then I would offer my apologies.


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You forgot 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation(not renewed creation); old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
<<<

I didn't forget it. But unlike you, I take "all" of scripture into consideration, and harmonize it together. In other words, both Scriptures are absolutely true. Now you have to find out "how" they both are true, rather than simply deny hat one can be true if the other is. As indeed you did with the TRUTH that Man was created in the image of God. And this is your major flaw. A failure to harmonize all scripture as truth.

For example, Christ came to bring Peace, and yet Christ came not to bring peace. Scripture (God's inerrant word) says both! Is there a contradiction? Some would say so, and teach we should believe one and not the other. But the TRUTH is, both statements are true. The problem is that people do not compare Scripture with Scripture to harmonize Scripture with itself.

So did God say let there be light and there was LITERAL light? Yes! But is Christ the light of the world? Also Yes! Was Christ created when God made the earth, planets and heavens? No! The point being bad assumptions make for bad conclusions. Indeed Scripture says Christ was the Creator of all things, not the created.


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You forgot the word firstborn among many brethren  in Ro 8:29..that means only Christ is the image  of God and brings His brethren(the elect) into that image when they are saved
<<<

"Straw Man!" We all know (and believe) Christ is the firstborn from the dead. What does that have to do with anything? Christ never lost the image of God that he had to restore it, MAN is the one who had to be restored to the image of God. That does not mean the word perfect only refers to Christ, or the word regeneration does not mean regeneration, or that the word restore does not really mean restore.


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You need to be humbling before the  scriptures but you always try to prove you are right and that you know everything..
<<<

Actually true humility is in bringing ourselves into subjection to the authority of the word. You know, like when it says man was created in the image of God? Like when it says something was created perfect in the garden of Eden, and fell into sin? And I try to prove that the scriptures are right, not myself. I have feet of clay like everyone else, but the witness of the word is perfect, true and trustworthy and not subject to man's private interpretations. Like when it says "man was created in the image of God." Unfortunately, there are many many many people today who are offended by scripture that contradicts them, and so they cannot abide the witness of it. Humility is as humility does.

Psalms 25:9-10
  • "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
  • All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies."

Humility is in the eye of the beholder, and my beholder is God alone. Meekness is determined by the sovereign providence of the Lord. Is there humility in denying God created Adam in the image of Himself, or is there pride, arrogance and denial of what is written. The Lord Judge. I am comfortable with that.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2005, 02:43:37 PM »
Quote
Quote from Shoan
It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God

Shoan,

In conjunction with Tony's typically excellent reply, please recall that earlier in this thread Scriptures were given regarding Job, who was also spoken of as "perfect"...

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.


The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".


There is also ithis passage in Job which on the surface may seem contradictory, but seems to actually be saying that only God, and God alone can ascribe "perfection".  If man vainly ascribes perfection to himself, such vanity & pride leads to destruction, as can be seen in the fall of men from Adam onward.

Job 9
20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21  Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
22  This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.



Then there is this passage in Job that speaks of knowledge of God which, as noted in an earlier post, also appears to be linked to what God means when He refers to "perfect".  It also shows what our right response should be -- namely recognizing that all "good" wisdom and ultimate perfection (salvation) is of the Lord, and Him alone:

Job 36
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
4  For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.



Shoan, you must realize that you contradict yourself when you say only Christ is referred to as "perfect" in the Scriptures.  You not only contradict yourself on this main issue, but as Tony noted, according to your flawed logic, Ez 28 would refer to Christ, which of course even you know cannot be so.

Ez 28
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.



Perhaps, having been shown where your interpretations fall short, you will show half the humility of Sandy when she recognized her need to not be so readily influenced by others, but to instead take time to check things out in the Bible for herself.  (I can identify with Sandy because I've had the same experience, as I'm sure others have had).

Just who is your final authority?  The Scriptures or the vain babblings of men?

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Carol

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2005, 03:28:00 PM »
Quote
Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Wouldn't Job be considered perfect because he is 'in Christ' who is perfect.  Aren't all believers considered perfect 'in Christ?'  And don't all and ONLY believers fear God and eschew evil?  I don't think Job was considered perfect because he feared God & eschewed evil, but he feared God & eschewed evil because he was perfect (in his savior Jesus Christ).

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal. 3:3

No one is perfect in the flesh, -apart from Christ.  And we are perfect only because Christ's perfection and righteousness is imputed to us.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.  Col. 1:28


Quote
Job 9
20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21  Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
22  This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Wouldn't the description in the scriptures above be describing a man outside of Christ?  Maybe one who considers himself perfect outside of Christ.

I'm not arguing for or against man being made in the image of God here, just speculating about the only way man can be perfect.  I don't see that there is any other kind of perfection in fallen man apart from Christ.

Just my 2 cents,
Carol
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2005, 04:02:54 PM »
>>>
I'm not arguing for or against man being made in the image of God here, just speculating about the only way man can be perfect.  I don't see that there is any other kind of perfection in fallen man apart from Christ.

Just my 2 cents,
Carol
<<<

Again. Maybe I'm just dense here and just not getting it. Which is very possible. But to my knowledge, no one is arguing for perfection in "fallen" man. So why does this bug-a-boo keep coming up "as if" someone has argued for it? Who is this that believes such things? Certainly no one I've read in this thread. But am I missing something? I don't see fallen man having perfection apart from Christ either. Who does?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Carol

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2005, 05:44:28 PM »
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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judykanova

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2005, 11:08:30 PM »
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol


Hi Carol,

Are these the passage you are referring to?

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.


To which I commented:

"The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

I was merely making the observation that, in this context, it appears that God defines "perfect" as "one that feareth God, and eschweth evil".  This comment in no way negates the fact that true salvation is only possible because of Christ's righteousness/perfection, imputed to those He came to save.  Since Job was a true believer, the perfection described in the above verses are an onward manifestation (or fruit) of salvation.

Yet there is a different type of "perfection" that Adam had before the fall, which some are confusing with saving faith or the perfection of Christ's righteousness -- thus the reason for this debate.

I hope this helps clarify my comment.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2005, 01:11:08 AM »
Dear Tony,

I think your argument is straw man as if you would be comparing scripture with scripture you would see the whole picture..I didn't say God created the light...when He said let there be light he declared that Christ is the Light and without Him this whole creation is subject to vanity..

consider this scripture
Hebrews1: 5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Also you need to understand that only Christ is perfect ....not the one(Satan) in Ezekiel 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Because he fell....and Christ did not and cannot as He is God and we all know that only God is perfect.Satan fell immediately after he was created.

John 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Again you missed Romans5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. and beat around teh bush....I clearly stated that Adam was not perfect as he had his sinful nature in him but sin was not imputed to him till God gave him the law..not to eat of the tree and when the law came sin manifested which clearly proves that he was not in the image of God then,cause if was he would remain perfect and would not sin.

John17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And let me remind you that eternal life is portrayed by the tree of life in the garden of Eden which he never could eat of(the tree of life is Christ the image of God) and Jesus says eternal life is knowing God...which proves that adam never knew God so your argument is straw man.

Let me quote the scripture again Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son (not even Adam)except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Your view of Genesis 1:26 is carnal and distorted as you fit Adam there without comparing scriptures elsewhere in the bible.


You quoted Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
1st Corinthians 15:21-22

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


But forgot I said sin was in the world(sinful nature in adam) but was not imputed where there is no law...and Romans 6:23 says  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When sin was imputed death stung Adam and the whole human race...but that doesn't mean that Adam was perfect...only Christ is perfect as He is the image of God and if Adam had the image of God and fell what guarntee is there that once he is brought into the image back by Christ he will not fall away again.That kind of thinking is absurd and rubbish as we all know that man can never lose his salvation or else Christ died in vain.

Please humble yourself before scriptures and son't try to prove to the people in this thread that just because you are the moderator and have posted many teachings in your web site that you are always right....TRUTH stands above ALL.

Peace!!
Shoan




Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2005, 03:35:44 AM »
>>>
Dear Tony,

I think your argument is straw man as if you would be comparing scripture with scripture you would see the whole picture..
<<<

Must be an echo in here ???


Quote
>>>
I didn't say God created the light...when He said let there be light he declared that Christ is the Light and without Him this whole creation is subject to vanity..
<<<


OK. So I guess the light created itself. And then divided itself from the darkness, and the greater light and lessor lights, they all created themselves also. This is nonsensical. God created the light and God divided it from the Darkness.

At any rate, I'm ending this discussion, since you haven't replied coherently to anything. And only one of us is indulging in honest handling of the scriptures. This discussion has become strained, and laced with somewhat irrational responses. Either you're not being coherent in your writing, or I'm becoming dyslectic. One or the other. So there is no sense in my trying to read you cut and paste various scriptures "for no apparent reason" other than the act of posting them. For you seem to have gone from a "learned scholar in the Greek" to "rambling incoherently without direction" all in a few days. And I do not feel that my further conversation with you on this issue would be productive to you, me, or anyone else for that matter.

But I wish you the best.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Pearson

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2005, 08:11:36 AM »
Quote
Genesis 1:3-5
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Again, when the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL Lights, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights. Days and nights which He made permanent by placing a Very LITERAL sun in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around. That all these things have spiritual significance is not in debate, your private interpretations that God did not create literal light and literally divide it from the darkness is what is at issue.


[Soapbox mode on]
God Bless you, your replies are always logical common sense "to the biblical point" explanations, and I appreciate that. It is obviously to me that you have a "gift" of understanding scripture, and I'm sure that frustrates people who haven't studied the scriptures as carefully as they should. Your "excellent" responses almost always give me food for thought. I only wish more christians would tackle the scriptures the way you do. I would like to add this passage that confirm that what you were saying in the quote about the light created and divided from the darkness was very literal.

Genesis 1:14-18
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

God says he created the lights in the firmament of heaven and divided it from darkness.And clearly he's talking about the sun, mood and stars. To say these lights are spiritual and one speaks of Christ is not justified in any manner. Thanks for getting involved in this thread because as usual you get to the point. You've given me some real good things to think about.

PS, anyone who says that you need eyes to see, doesn't have eyes to see themselves. Because God has blessed you with spiritual eyes, that much is evident in your studies, your efforts with this website, and in your posts on this forum. I know you don't need me to say this, but I need to say it anyway.


Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

Shoan

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2005, 09:06:18 AM »
Tony,
I didnt deny that God made the sun moon and stars which also hve spiritual appliction...I have emphsised on teh spritual aspect and I also told you that I don't deny the literal part...
However you didnt respond to the spiritual application which Paul states in 2 Corin 4:6 and have only held on to the Literal but I accept both teh physical and the sprirtual application of scripture which is the true as not I but Paul says in 2 Corin 4:6 that the light is the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ and you deny that and are leading many astray as to making them believe in the Litreal and deny the spiritual application..and there are so many scriptures I have posted which You deny the spiritual appication.

May God give You the eyes to see and ears to hear.I can only pray for you.

Peace!!
Shoan

judykanova

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Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2005, 10:31:31 AM »
Quote
quote from Tony's 4/16 post:
>> What are you talking about? When God said let there be light, there was "VERY LITERAL LIGHT."  That it has spiritual significance also is not the question. That God said Adam was created in the image of God is a "VERY LITERAL" statement. Once one starts spiritualizing without Biblical warrant, the whole Bible becomes subject to man's own private interpretations. What's to stop me from saying the first sin was spiritual? Or that God clothed Adam and eve with skins was just spiritual. No, it was very LITERAL, though it has a spiritual application. There is nothing in scripture that we should believe anything different. And man's added conclusions and private interpretations of what God said is not the Christian's authority. What is actually written there is. <<


Quote
quote from Shoan's 4/18 post:
>> ...Paul says in 2 Corin 4:6 that the light is the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ and you deny that and are leading many astray as to making them believe in the Litreal and deny the spiritual application..and there are so many scriptures I have posted which You deny the spiritual appication.

May God give You the eyes to see and ears to hear.I can only pray for you.<<


Shoan,

It's not only different to follow the logic in your most recent posts, but you seem to have a penchant for deliberately misrepresenting what others have said.  Please note the quotes above.  Tony and everyone here recognizes there is a spiritual element to the literal creation of Genesis.  That has never been under dispute and is not the main issue.

Vanity, pride and bearing false witness against others are surely things God hates.  So while praying for Tony, perhaps you should also pray for yourself --that your spiritual eyes and ears be open to God's truths. 


Eph 4:25  Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Psa 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.



judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

 


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