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Author Topic: Was Adam and Eve Saved?  (Read 20303 times)

GoldRush

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Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« on: April 28, 2005, 06:43:22 PM »
Tony,

Within the thread about Adam being created in the image of God, you commented:

"No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace."

Was this discussed any further?  We would be interested in the Scriptural clues that you reference.

Whether Adam received grace seems to be more vague than Eve receiving grace, because of the gospel promise given in Genesis 3:15 relating to her seed, and the Scripture that reveals her (faithful?) hope that each male child might be the fulfillment of the promised seed.  (e.g. Genesis 4:1, 25)

Some of our questions:

If A&E were of the elect and saved by grace in the garden, why were they expelled from the garden and forbidden access to the tree of life?  (Genesis 3:22-24)

Was Adam reconciled to an inward fellowship with God via the Holy Spirit, after losing physical fellowship with God?

Why are Adam and Eve not listed as persons of faith in Hebrews 11. . .when the Luke geneology says Adam was "of God."  (Luke 3:38)

We have pondered these things for years and vacillated from time to time wondering if A&E did indeed receive the grace of God, but have never come to a sure conclusion.  Perhaps it is something that can not be determined?

More Scriptures would be most appreciated (and please forgive us if we have missed this being discussed already!)

J&R
GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
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andreas

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2005, 11:45:47 PM »
<<<More Scriptures would be most appreciated>>>

God's  mercy is at work, and that is what these skins signify spiritually,salvation.  Whatever was in the ark, the tabernacle, or the tent,  whatever was upon Aaron when clothed with the garments of holiness.

Of the ark it is said that the covering of the tent was "of rams‘ skins and badgers’ skins" Exod. 26:14; 36:19, and that when they set forward Aaron and his sons covered the ark with a covering "of badgers‘ skins," and likewise the table and its vessels, the candlestick and its vessels, the altar of gold, and the vessels of ministry and of the altar. Num. 4:6-14.

I clothed thee with broidered work, and shod thee with badger, I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk Ezekiel 16:10.

Put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the city of holiness Isaiah 52:1.

Who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy Revelation 3:4, 5,

 The four and twenty elders that they were "clothed in white raiment" (Revelation 4:4).

Adam and Eve were no longer naked in the eyes of God for he clothed them with a coat of skin(rather than rainment,garment,or fine linen and silk)  because they were stiill in the body .The skins were obtained from animals and that involved killing the beasts.We are told, "without shedding of blood there is no remission".Hebrews 9:22.
Yea, i believe they were regenerated,for they were no longer naked,in the eyes of God,but clothed.

andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 01:49:00 AM »
>>>
"No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace."

Was this discussed any further?  We would be interested in the Scriptural clues that you reference.
<<<


The scriptural clues are that the Lord says nothing in His word capriciously, and God is using the illustration of His sacrificing an animal (illustrated in his supplying skins) to clothe the nakedness (sin) of both Adam and Eve, to foreshadow the redemption that Christ provides for them. Adam was created in the image of God, Adam is also called the son of God. Seth, was born in the image and likeness of Adam "in place of" Abel, Eve is subject unto Adam, and is the mother of all living. Adam prefigures Christ, the last Adam, Adam is head of the woman, a figure of the Church. Adam is one of the Patriarchs of God's calendar of history, the gospel message is delivered via Adam and Eve. God put enmity between the serpent and the woman, who was subject to Adam. The seed of the woman is through Adam and Eve, which are just some I can think of right now.

This is the gospel preached in Adam and Eve. Unto the woman God says that He would greatly multiply her sorrow and her conception. "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. -Genesis 3:16" The Lord says nothing Capriciously, and God uses Adam and Eve as a symbol of the husband/wife Christ/Church relationship. She is the woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam is her husband. This spiritual truth is I believe also confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
  • "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
  • Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Just as Eve was saved that she bring forth Godly seed in travail, God equates the Church to her, yet illustrates Eve as the weaker vessel. That through severe pain and extreme travail, she will bring forth Godly children. God does not use an unsaved man and woman to represent this glorious true covenant Church relationship.


Quote
>>>
Some of our questions:
If A&E were of the elect and saved by grace in the garden, why were they expelled from the garden and forbidden access to the tree of life?  (Genesis 3:22-24)
<<<

Because God had ordained in Adam and Eve a figure of the gospel message for mankind. Thus by their disobedience, God is illustrating his plan of salvation, which He had in view from before the foundation of the world. God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and He made provision for it. Casting them out of the garden was not a picture of their lack of election, but that this earthly Garden was not the true Kingdom that God has in view for mankind. It served its purpose as a figure of the Kingdom, and now of man's separation from the kingdom through sin.

Revelation 2:7
  • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

This is the "true" Paradise of God, which the earthly Garden of Eden was merely a figure of. In their disobedience to God, and their breaking the Covenant of works by sinning in the earthly garden (which God knew they would), they illustrated the principle that violation of God's law (sin) results in the wages thereof, which is death. Death is a denial of life in Paradise with God. God is using them as vessels to demonstrate this principle of death in their separation from God by casting them out of this paradise and denying access to the tree of life. This is just as Moses was denied entrance into the promised land, not to demonstrate that he was unsaved, but to illustrate a principle. The promised land (as the Garden of Eden) was a figure of the kingdom of God to come.

1st Corinthians 15:45
  • "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Adam the natural man created in the image of God, prefigured Christ the spiritual and express image of God. Just as the Garden of Eden the earthly, prefigured the Paradise of God, which is Spiritual. Thus the principle put forth in the natural garden was that the wages of sin is death, a separation from God and denial of life. Adam and Eve were tempted/tested and didn't keep the covenant of works anymore than Moses or any of us could. God gave them the law, and they broke it. The tree of knowledge was put there for the reason of testing. Not to tempt them to sin, but to illustrate their need for the clothing, which is the righteousness of Christ. God could have had no tree of knowledge there, but it was put there because of the Covenant, as a sign for man. Would mankind hold to the covenant of works and obey, or would he break his personal relationship with God in disobedience? Thus, in Adam's failure, we see God's "eternal spiritual plan," that the only way for those who commit sin to be made righteous and become right with God, is through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ's redemption would not be a temporal or natural one in the garden (that is paradise lost), but an eternal redemption in the paradise of heaven where flesh and blood cannot inherit. i.e., the gospel message shines through clearly in the historical events that took place in the garden, illustrating a greater spiritual Paradise of God. God had always predetermined that man would enter the spiritual Kingdom via Christ, who would make them worthy, conforming them in the righteousness of Christ, the greater image of God that they cannot lose.


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>>>
Was Adam reconciled to an inward fellowship with God via the Holy Spirit, after losing physical fellowship with God?
<<<

"Anyone" who becomes saved is reconciled to God by the Spirit of Christ, so if Adam became saved, he too would be conformed to the image of God that he have fellowship through Christ. The word "saved" implies we are delivered or saved from something, and that something is death (the wages of sin).

Genesis 3:21
  • "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The illustrated here is that the nakedness of sin came about by Adam's disobedience. But both Adam and Eve being clothed in skins by God, illustrates they were saved from their spiritual nakedness by a sacrifice offering provided by God. Coats of skins means God sacrificed some animal to clothe them. This sacrifice represented Christ.


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>>>
Why are Adam and Eve not listed as persons of faith in Hebrews 11. . .when the Luke geneology says Adam was "of God."  (Luke 3:38)
<<<

Hebrews chapter 11 is obviously not an exhaustive list of those of faith. The chapter itself says that it is not! I believe it lists only about 14 people, which is hardly a list of all the great men of faith. Moreover, Adam is used of God to demonstrate the fall of man in disobedience to God in original sin that brought about the stain of death unto all mankind. Thus it would not be helpful to then list him when discussing the great men of faith. God has specific reasons for listing and not listing specific people. For example, Job wasn't listed as persons of faith in Hebrews 11, but can we conclude from his exclusion from the list that Job wasn't clothed in the righteousness of Christ? Of course not. Lot wasn't listed as a person of faith in Hebrews 11 either, but can we conclude from his exclusion from the list that Lot wasn't saved? Thus we must be careful not to read things into scripture that are not there. And to consider from scripture things that are there.

Luke 3:37-38
  • "Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
  • Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

Again, God inspires nothing written capriciously. Adam was the father of Abel, and of Seth who "Replaced Abel," and is listed as one of the Patriarch references, and is called the son of God. I don't think that we need any further reference. In fact, in the original Hebrew it says very literally that Adam was "of God!" There is the man of God, and then there is the man of sin. There is the seed of the serpent, and then there is the seed of the woman (through Adam), there is the children of the Devil, and then there are the children of God (1st John 3:10), there is the first Adam, and then there is the last Adam. Adam is therefore clearly being used as a type of God, both as the first Adam, and as the husband of the woman. And in my humble opinion, that doesn't lend itself to an unsaved man.

Romans 5:14
  • " Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Clearly Adam was a figure of Christ that would come and set things right again.

God has a very specific way of saying things, and when He says that He made and clothed Adam and Eve's nakedness with skins, it has to refer to them finding Grace in His eyes. Else what is the purpose of such language. God didn't have to clothe them (they were already clothed with leaves), or say he clothed them, and certainly not with the sacrifice of an animal to cover their nakedness. Nakedness in scripture is a clear and unmistakable reference to man's sins (Revelation 3:18). So what did God do by shedding the blood of an animal to clothe Adam and Eve's nakedness with its skin? I don't think we can shrug this off as a matter of adiaphora in relationship to God covering their nakedness this way.


Quote
>>>
We have pondered these things for years and vacillated from time to time wondering if A&E did indeed receive the grace of God, but have never come to a sure conclusion.  Perhaps it is something that can not be determined?

More Scriptures would be most appreciated (and please forgive us if we have missed this being discussed already!)

J&R
<<<

I don't think that many Christians give enough merit to the fact that God clothed Adam and Eve's "nakedness" with skins. Because in scripture, nakedness is a very definite figure of sin. Note that it wasn't as if they weren't clothed already, they were.

Genesis 3:7
  • "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

But God "deemed" the clothing made by their own hands insufficient to cover their sins and to provide them with life, and so God gave them a change of clothing by sacrificing an animal and clothing them with its skins.

Genesis 3:20-21
  • "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
  • Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The clothing Adam and Eve had provided for themselves, God understood could not cover their nakedness. i.e., man cannot do away with his own sins, that has to be done by the sovereign work of God alone, and it must be done by the shedding of blood. And that is why they were clothed with an animal's skin. The same spiritual picture contrasting between the gift that Cain brought and the gift that Abel brought. One representing man's own works, and one the sacrifice of Christ by blood.

Genesis 4:2
  • "And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."

Likewise, Adam and Eve clothed themselves with the fruit of the ground, but God deemed it insufficient, and shed blood of an animal to clothe them. This signifying a better offering. The Lord clothing both Adam and Eve with skins foreshadowed the redemption that He would provide. It was a sign that they too came under the covenant of Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's very own sacrifice. Eve is the mother of all living only because she is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. As indeed Adam also was.

Christ patterns or types Himself after saved people, not unsaved people. And He titles Himself Adam to make association with his fall, and thus his subsequent rising again.

1st Corinthians 15:45-47
  • "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  • Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
  • The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

I don't think that if Adam was an unsaved man, Christ would pattern himself after him. Could we imagine Christ being called the last Ahab, or the last Haman, or the last Nebuchadnezzar, or other wicked men? No, we wouldn't imagine that because these people were all reprobates. All the people of scripture Christ is patterned after are saved people. Adam, Moses, Joshua, Samson, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc., are all saved. Thus Christ being typed as Adam I believe also indicates Adam belongs in this saved category.

My conclusion based upon these Biblical references (and more) is that Adam and Eve were saved by faith of the promise (Genesis 3:15), when God preached the gospel unto them declaring that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent's head. It is a Covenant or oath that of her seed a Saviour would come to defeat Satan and conquer death. And God sealed this Covenant oath with the sign of an animal sacrifice to clothe their nakedness, a "token" or sign of that Covenant promise.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"




Kenneth White

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2005, 09:26:44 AM »
I agree that Adam and Eve were most likely saved. And I think this all ties into the image of God thread. Man was created in the image of God, but he sinned and that sin removed him from the presence of the father in death. But in God clothing Adam, he restored him to his previous estate of sonship. I believe we can also see this demonstrated in the parable of the prodigal son.


 Luke 15:24 "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."


 Here we see the son was first alive and in the house, left the house and was as dead in sin, and then was restored. This parable of the prodigal son is really a synopsis of the everlasting Gospel itself. Of man in his father's house, who sinned and was separated from his father. It is a demonstration of God's endless love for His children in spite of their separation from him in disobedience (as Adam). It is the story of repentance and the reinstatement of the intimate relationship of an errant son with his loving Father.

Luke 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

We all are as this wayward son who needed to be drawn back home. Perhaps this parable will help some people to understand why man lost his estate and has to now be conformed to the image of God by Christ. Of God's merciful compassion and love wherein he kills the fatted calf for his wayward son. And remember, in order for a son to be wayward, he had to first be in the house of his father, and somehow had abandoned it, and then returned. The key word being returned. Or regenerated as the word used in another thread.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Kenneth White

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2005, 09:37:58 AM »
I don't think that many Christians give enough merit to the fact that God clothed Adam and Eve's "nakedness" with skins. Because in scripture, nakedness is a very definite figure of sin. Note that it wasn't as if they weren't clothed already, they were.

Genesis 3:7
  • "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Interesting! I never thought of this. In other words, they tried to cover their own nakedness, and by God giving them skins in place of their leaves, He is illustrating that their nakedness could not be covered by the work of their own hands, but by the work of God's. Hola! It's the gospel message all over again. I'm finding you can really find the gospel message everywhere you look in scripture. Does this not also tie into the chosen fast?

Isaiah 58:6-7 "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"


Truly, the gospel message is everywhere if we just open our eyes and look. It is God who saw their nakedness and covered them with a sacrifice. Yes, this illustrates they were saved.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

andreas

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 09:57:39 PM »
<<<Truly, the gospel message is everywhere if we just open our eyes and look>>>

Correction: If He opens our eyes so that we can see.

"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened".Isa 35:5
"To open the blind eyes."Isa 42:7a.
"This man who opened the eyes of the blind".John 11:37a

andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2005, 09:45:01 AM »
Servants Messages have been moved to a more appropriate thread:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=1231.msg12476#msg12476

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

GoldRush

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2005, 12:49:39 AM »
Quote
Tony Warren:

"No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not.

We agreed with this statement, and that was the reason for our first response and questions offered.  However, your (thoughtful) answer seems to manifest your conviction that indeed A&E were regenerated by the grace of God . . .so we venture a little further, with trepidation,  fearing that further comments might seem argumentative to your apparent conclusions . . .so please bear with us.

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The Lord says nothing Capriciously,

Indeed.
Quote

 and God uses Adam and Eve as a symbol of the husband wife Christ Church relationship. She is the woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam is her husband. This spiritual truth is confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
•   "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
•   Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Just as Eve was saved that she bring forth Godly seed in travail, God equates the Church to her, yet illustrates Eve as the weaker vessel. That through severe pain and extreme travail, she will bring forth Godly children.

Agreed.

Quote
Because God had ordained in Adam and Eve a figure of the gospel message for mankind, thus by their disobedience, God is illustrating his plan of Salvation which He had in view from before the foundation of the world. God knew Adam would sin, and He made provision for it. Casting them out of the garden was not a picture of their lack of Salvation, but that this earthly Garden was not the true Kingdom that God has in view for mankind. It served it's purpose as a figure of the Kingdom, and now of man's separation from the kingdom.
Agreed.

Quote
In their disobedience to God, and their breaking the Covenant of works by sinning in the earthly garden (which He knew they would), they illustrated the principle that violation of God's law (sin) results in it's wages, which is death, and a denial of life with God. God is using them as vessels to demonstrate this principle of death in their separation from God by casting them out of paradise, and denying access to the tree of life that represented eternal life. This is just as Moses was denied entrance into the promised land, not to demonstrate that he was unsaved, but to illustrate a principle. The promised land (as the Garden of Eden) was a figure of the kingdom of God to come.


Good point.  Something we had never considered about Moses before, and about which we concur.

Quote
Adam the natural man created in the image of God, prefigured Christ the spiritual and express image of God. Just as the Garden of Eden the earthly, prefigured the Paradise of God the Spiritual. Thus the principle put forth in the natural garden was that the wages of sin is death, a separation from God and denial of life.

Agreed.

Quote
the gospel message shines through clearly in the historical events that took place in the garden, illustrating a greater Paradise of God.  God had always predetermined that man would enter the spiritual Kingdom via Christ, who would make them worthy, conforming them in the righteousness of Christ, the greater image of God that they cannot lose.

Indeed and Amen!

Quote
Hebrews chapter 11 is obviously not an exhaustive list of those of faith. The chapter itself says that it is not. I believe it lists only about 14 people, which is hardly a list of all the men of faith. Moreover, Adam is used of God to demonstrate the fall of man in disobedience to God in original sin that brought about the stain of death unto all mankind. Thus it would not be helpful to then list him when discussing the great men of faith. God has specific reasons for listing, and not listing specific people. Job wasn't listed as persons of faith in Hebrews 11, but can we conclude from his exclusion from the list that Job wasn't clothed in the righteousness of Christ? Lot wasn't listed as a person of faith in Hebrews 11 either, but can we conclude from his exclusion from the list that Lot wasn't saved?

Good point, and we concur.

Quote
Again, God inspires nothing written capriciously. Adam was the father of Abel, and of Seth who "Replaced Abel," and is listed as one of the Patriarch references, and is called the son of God. I don't think that we need any further reference. In fact, in the original Hebrew it says very literally that Adam was "of God!"

Yes, we do not argue this point, other than to make differentiation between the title, “Son of God” (capitalized) and “sons of God,” in lesser form.  The fact that Adam was “of God,” and a son, does not equate him with the only begotten “Son of God,” Jesus Christ.


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there is the first Adam, and there is the last Adam. Adam is therefore clearly being used as a type of God, both as the first Adam, and as the husband of the woman. And that doesn't lend itself to an unsaved man.

On this point, we are having a hard time agreeing.  We believe Adam was created in the image of God, but we are having trouble seeing corrupted Adam as a “type of God.”

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Romans 5:14
•   " Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Clearly Adam was a figure of Christ that would come and set things right again.

Adam was a “figure” of the Christ who would come in the flesh; humanity in type, not God in type. 

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same . . .”  Hebrews 2:14a

Quote
God has a very specific way of saying things, and when He says that He clothed Adam and Eve's nakedness with skins, it has to refer to them finding Grace in His eyes. Else what is the purpose of such language. God didn't have to clothe them, say he clothed them, and certainly not with animal skins to cover their nakedness. Nakedness in scripture is a clear and unmistakable reference to man's sins (Revelation 3:18). So what did God do by shedding the blood of an animal to clothe Adam and Eve's nakedness with it's covering? I don't think we can shrug this off as a matter of adiaphora in relationship to God covering their nakedness this way.

This was the very first example of God providing atonement for fallen humanity, and providing blood for the remission of sins.  It is the first example of God showing grace by the sins of His fallen creatures.

The clothing Adam and Eve had provided for themselves, God understood could not cover their nakedness. i.e., man cannot do away with his own sins, that has to be done by the sovereign work of God alone by the shedding of blood.

Agreed and Amen!

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It was a sign that they too came under the covenant of Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's very own sacrifice. Eve is the mother of all living only because she is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. As indeed Adam also was.

We are concerned this statement regarding efficacy of the animal skins might be a stretch.

 There is no question that the animal sacrifices pointed to the eventual saving blood of the Savior; the Seed promised to Eve.  But Scripture also teaches that such blood atonements are a copy [/i] “of the things in the heavens,” and can never “make those who approach perfect. . .But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.”  Hebrews 9:23-10:4

This is the core of our ponderings.

Might the covering of A&E's sinful nakedness be an atonement to remind them of their sin, even while this providential act of God displayed His grace and promise of a Savior?

God indeed provided Adam and many of his descendents atonement by gifting them with understanding of the necessity to worship through blood offerings; just as God further provided in greater detail, and under covenant and the direction of Moses, to the nation of Israel and the Levitical priesthood.

Such atonement indeed proclaimed the Gospel by pointing to the ultimate blood offering of the Son of God to the Father as remission of the sins of His elect children, but such practices of worshiping God with animal sacrifices did not always provide regeneration (salvation). 

  The entire nation of Israel practiced and enjoyed the blessings of TEMPORAL blood atonement, in order to survive before God in order to produce the promised Seed (just as Adam & Eve were spared with years of temporal life for the same purpose), but the entire nation of Israel was not saved by these riturals of atonement and sacrificing of animal blood (even though it was provided by the command and providence of God).

Animal sacrifice and Godly atonement TEMPORARILY SANCTIFIED Israel, but it did not save Israel in whole.

What alone saved remnant souls in Israel?

God's gift of Faith in the blood atonement provided by God through animal sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit that gave elect souls comprehensive insight and faith that animal blood temporarily pointed to the  future and efficacious sacrifice to be proved by God in His promised Savior.

We appreciate and agree with you regarding the Gospel being manifested in God providing animal skins for A&E, but what we search for in Scripture, is evidence of faith in A&E.  We see small hints of faith exhibited by Eve, but are not sure about Adam manifesting saving faith.

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Christ patterns or types Himself after saved people, not unsaved people.

We certainly believe there are many peoples who prefigured and typed Jesus Christ, but we are not sure that Jesus Christ patterned Himself after any mortal man (saved or unsaved).

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And He titles Himself Adam to make association with his fall, and thus his subsequent rising again.

1st Corinthians 15:45-47
•   "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
•   Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
•   The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

I don't think that if Adam was an unsaved man, Christ would pattern himself after him.

We consider this passage of Scripture a comparison between the two Adams; not a copied pattern of likeness.

The first Adam was a “living being,” of flesh.  The last Adam was “quickening spirit.”  The first Adam was earthly.  The last Adam was heavenly.  We know the first Adam was faithless and sinful; the last Adam (The Lord God) was perfectly faithful and without sin. 

We believe the first Adam was made in the image of God.

Jesus Christ was not made in the image of sinful man.

Jesus Christ is the perfection of humanity. 

From the first Adam (as federal head) we received corruption and death.   From the last Adam (as federal head) we receive mercy, grace, justification, fellowship with God’s Spirit and Presence, and all covenant promises of glory and everlasting life.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”  Romans 6:23

That is not Christ patterning after Adam the sinful man, but contrasting the last Adam as The Righteous Man.

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My conclusion based upon these Biblical references is that Adam and Eve were saved by faith of the promise (Genesis 3:15), when God preached the gospel unto them declaring that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent's head.

We highly respect your opinion and appreciate your input.  However, it appears to us within biblical context, that this promise of Genesis 3:15 was made directly to Eve.

  We are not saying Adam did not hear the promise, or that Adam did not believe the promise . . .we just don’t know.  But we also do not know for sure that Adam ever faithfully acted on this promise, and thus our questioning.

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It is a Covenant or oath that of her seed a Saviour would come to defeat Satan and conquer death. And God sealed this Covenant oath with the sign of an animal sacrifice to clothe their nakedness, a "token" or sign of that Covenant promise.

Agreed.

But the promise was to “her” seed, not to Adam’s seed, per se.  


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Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2005, 11:05:00 AM »
>>>
there is the first Adam, and there is the last Adam. Adam is therefore clearly being used as a "type" of God, both as the first Adam, and as the husband of the woman. And that doesn't lend itself to an unsaved man.

On this point, we are having a hard time agreeing.  We believe Adam was created in the image of God, but we are having trouble seeing corrupted Adam as a "type of God."
<<<

What's to agree? God Himself said plainly that Adam was a "type"  of Christ. When I say "type" I am speaking in the theological sense of a figure or representation of God, not that he was a type (class) of God. A "type" is a figure in this case anticipating Christ. As for being a corrupted man, David is a "type" of Christ and was a corrupted man, a murderer even, yet He was also a "type" of Christ. In this sense, Adam was a "type" or figure of Christ. By the first man Adam (type) sin was imputed unto us unto death, so by the last Adam (antitype) sin is laid upon him, that righteousness is imputed unto us, and thus life from death.

1st Corinthians 15:21-22
  • "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
  • For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

The first Adam the Type, the last Adam the Antitype.


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>>>
It was a sign that they too came under the covenant of Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's very own sacrifice. Eve is the mother of all living only because she is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. As indeed Adam also was.

We are concerned this statement regarding efficacy of the animal skins might be a stretch.

There is no question that the animal sacrifices pointed to the eventual saving blood of the Savior; the Seed promised to Eve.  But Scripture also teaches that such blood atonements are a copy “of the things in the heavens,” and can never “make those who approach perfect. . .But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.”  Hebrews 9:23-10:4
This is the core of our ponderings.
<<<

Note my words that it was a "sign," meaning it was a token or symbol of the righteousness of Christ. Yes, I agree the blood of animals can cleanse no one of sin. On this we all agree. But two things here. First, man didn't make this sacrifice, and use the skins to clothe them, God did. Which makes it a little different. Second, He used the skins to replace the clothing they had made by their own hands. And clothed their nakedness with what He had made. This is not man practicing a ceremonial law, but God illustrating certain truths of salvation by "Himself" clothing both Adam and Eve.


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>>>
Might the covering of A&E's sinful nakedness be an atonement to remind them of their sin, even while this providential act of God displayed His grace and promise of a Savior?
<<<

We cannot say it was an atonement, rather I believe that it was a "sign" of the atonement to come, that would take away man's sins. And it was given to them of God, thus it was more a sign of the Promise (covenant) to them that their sins would be atoned for in Christ.


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>>>
Such atonement indeed proclaimed the Gospel by pointing to the ultimate blood offering of the Son of God to the Father as remission of the sins of His elect children, but such practices of worshiping God with animal sacrifices did not always provide regeneration (salvation). 
<<<

Agreed. That's they key. Pointed to ultimate blood sacrifice. You are also right that man practicing of worshiping God with animal sacrifices didn't mean salvation, but man is not the one making a sacrifice here. God Himself slayed the animal and provided it for them (as opposed to them making ceremonial sacrifice as the children of Israel did) in the context of them already being clothed. So it seems to me that this is God making a spiritual statement that He clothed them, rather than just another animal sacrifice by man.


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Animal sacrifice and Godly atonement TEMPORARILY SANCTIFIED Israel, but it did not save Israel in whole.
<<<

Agreed. The difference being they (saved or not) made the sacrifice and used the blood, as opposed to God himself making the sacrifice "for" Adam and Eve and replacing their personally made clothing with "His" coats of skins. Meaning He had to shed blood to provide it.

Genesis 3:21
  • "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The language of God making it and God clothing them does not lend itself well to it "not" being an act of God to clothe them spiritually. It's like God making clothing to clothe the nakedness of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. That just wouldn't read consistent because Nebuchadnezzar is an unsaved man, a "type" of Satan.

This is different, not like God "telling man" to sacrifice the blood of an animal and or telling man to cloth himself with it's skins. The scriptures say God did this Himself, which is very different. The whole "type" or figure is of God providing for them salvation, rather than of them performing a ceremonial ritual as Israel did.


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We appreciate and agree with you regarding the Gospel being manifested in God providing animal skins for A&E, but what we search for in Scripture, is evidence of faith in A&E.  We see small hints of faith exhibited by Eve, but are not sure about Adam manifesting saving faith.
<<<

That's why I say no one knows "for sure," however I do believe we can see evidence of faith in Adam through God's signs of promise (Covenant signs), through him being the head of the woman, she being the glory of him, him being a Patriarch reference, clothed of God, etc.


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>>>
Christ patterns or types Himself after saved people, not unsaved people.

We certainly believe there are many peoples who prefigured and typed Jesus Christ, but we are not sure that Jesus Christ patterned Himself after any mortal man (saved or unsaved).
<<<

Sorry, an error in sentence structure on my part there. That was my intended meaning. I should say, God used man to prefigure, or as a "type" of the Saviour. Not the other way around. e.g., Adam, Moses, Joshua, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, etc.

So the comment really was meant to be, God uses saved people as patterns or "types" of Christ, not unsaved people. Not that Christ was patterned after sinful man, man is used of God to be a figure or pattern of God. The scriptures also call it a [skia] or shadow form of that which was to come.


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>>>
I don't think that if Adam was an unsaved man, Christ would pattern himself after him.

We consider this passage of Scripture a comparison between the two Adams; not a copied pattern of likeness.
<<<

ultimately, all "types" in scripture are figures or image comparisons of some sort characterizing the true image that it prefigures in some fashion. For example David was a "living being" just like Adam, and a "type" or comparison figure of Christ, but that doesn't mean that as "living being" of flesh, he had to be a "quickening spirit" like his comparison figure Christ.

Adam prefigured Christ who became Adam (man) to whom sin was imputed. Indeed Christ became sin for us. In the comparison likeness or image of man, Christ became sin, that through death his righteousness would be imputed to Adam (man). Thus Adam was a figure of Him, and He is called the last Adam in that He corrects what the first Adam imputed. It's not just a comparison of the two, Adam was a "figure" of Christ. And that is another reason why I believe he found grace in God's eyes. But I'm not just making my own assumption, God's word "said" that Adam was a figure of Christ.

Romans 5:13-15
  • "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
  • Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the FIGURE OF HIM that was to come.
  • But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

Clearly Adam was the figure [homoioma] or "likeness" of Christ, that was prophesied to come. God is not only making a comparison, but He is clearly using Adam as a figure or "likeness" prefiguring Christ. And this is yet another reason why I believe Adam found grace in God's sight.


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>>>
We believe the first Adam was made in the image of God.
<<<

Amen! Agreed! That's because we "receive" authority of scripture.


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>>>
Jesus Christ was not made in the image of sinful man.
<<<

Agreed! But actually, Jesus Christ was made in the form, likeness, figure of man, yet without sin, that He could "as man" be laden with sin, to take away the sins of man. For this reason He is called the last Adam!


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>>>
From the first Adam (as federal head) we received corruption and death.   From the last Adam (as federal head) we receive mercy, grace, justification, fellowship with God’s Spirit and Presence, and all covenant promises of glory and everlasting life.
<<<

Agreed! Though the last Adam had to "first" become sin for us, that we be made the righteousness in Him. All of this goes into the propitiation of the last Adam.


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>>>
That is not Christ patterning after Adam the sinful man, but contrasting the last Adam as The Righteous Man.
<<<

Actually, I think Christ became man, and became sin for man, that He could take away their sin, which again is "why" He is called the last Adam. Adam was a figure of Him as we read before in God's word.

2nd Corinthians 5:21
  • "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

We cannot relegate Christ to merely contrasting Adam, when scripture says Adam was a "figure" of Christ that was to come. By God's own terminology, that means that in Adam we can see some characteristics or "likenesses" of Christ, whom "he prefigured." I assume you agree with the scripture that says Adam was a "figure" of Christ? For that is what a figure is. A likeness or similitude of some sort.


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>>>
We highly respect your opinion and appreciate your input.  However, it appears to us within biblical context, that this promise of Genesis 3:15 was made directly to Eve.
<<<

I don't argue that. But that is because God is addressing the woman as a symbol of the Church.


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>>>
We are not saying Adam did not hear the promise, or that Adam did not believe the promise . . .we just don’t know.  But we also do not know for sure that Adam ever faithfully acted on this promise, and thus our questioning.
<<<

True God spoke to the woman, but how would the type ring true if He spoke to the man? He's using the woman to illustrate the Church bringing forth children through much tribulation, who would be ruled over by Adam (type of Christ). God doesn't appoint unsaved man to rule over the Church. And we have to read it "in context" of the mystery (Ephesians 5:31-33) of the one flesh man/woman relationship of Christ and the Church, man and the woman whose job it is to bear seed.

Genesis 3:15-16
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
  • Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

If the woman signifies the Church (which we both agree she does) then the husband whom her desire is too, and whom God set to rule over her, must signify Christ, as He is the head of the Church. Again we have Adam prefiguring Christ, the man as head of the woman even as Christ is head of the Church. As it is written, the woman is the Glory of the man (1st Corinthians 11:7). It all has bearing on the question of Adam being saved. I do not believe that Eve has the promise alone, for the woman is the glory of the man, as Christ is of the Church. ...which is the context of Genesis 3:15-16.


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>>>
It is a Covenant or oath that of her seed a Saviour would come to defeat Satan and conquer death. And God sealed this Covenant oath with the sign of an animal sacrifice to clothe their nakedness, a "token" or sign of that Covenant promise.

Agreed.
But the promise was to “her” seed, not to Adam’s seed, per se.   
<<<

God said Adam was to rule over her and her desire was to be towards him (as a type of Christ for the Church the woman represented), and her seed "is" his seed, since he is the father of her children. They are "both" types. Adam of Christ the head, and Eve as the woman, the Church that He is head over. All of this has to be taken into consideration in coming to our conclusions.

But again, as I said in the beginning of this thread, no one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But it is "my conclusion" based upon all the information I read in the scriptures concerning them both, that each of them found grace in the sight of God. Yet each man/woman has to come to their own conclusions based upon "their own" understanding of scripture.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

nicoengelbrecht

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 03:44:54 PM »
The third son of Adam was Seth,  (Appointed) As in the proto-evangel Gen 3:15 Eve expected a saviour as Abel was murdered and was not the saviour.  Therefore Eve was a believer, she had God given faith.  It is clear that they looked forward to a Saviour not unlike Abraham and other men of faith,

Tim Norton

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 08:48:21 AM »

Building upon Rufus' question in the free will thread

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=339.msg30613#msg30613

I was curious if anyone can show scripture that teaches that Adam repented? Did Adam repent of his sins?

Pearson

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 04:37:55 PM »
Did Adam repent of his sins?

[Soapbox mode on]

I believe that Adam and Eve did repent of their sins. Why else would they be ashamed and try to cover their sins, albeit not sufficiently. They were not ashamed in their nakedness before they sinned.

 Gen. 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Why do you think God specifically tells us that they were not ashamed? But after they sinned, their eyes were opened that they "recognized their sin" and so were ashamed and sewed leaves together to try and cover it.

 Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 There was not found a sufficient covering in their leaves, but they found grace in the sight of God who Himself made a covering for them. All these things indicate they repented and were saved.


Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

Doug Johnson

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 07:21:16 PM »
>>Did ADAM AND EVE REPENT OF THEIR SINS?<<<

I think that the answer is no. Because nowhere do we read that in scripture. The mistake they made in the garden was not washed clean in blood because Christ had not yet come. And without repentance, they were left dead in their sins. But their child Abel was saved.

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 03:32:03 AM »
>>>
>>Did ADAM AND EVE REPENT OF THEIR SINS?<<<
<<<

There is no text that explicitly says "Adam and Eve Repented," but we can glean from other texts and by their behaviour after they were cast out of the Garden that they were God fearing people and most likely were saved. The evidence can even be understood in that after they sinned, Adam named his wife Eve, the mother of all living. As I said earlier, that was a token of God's inherent promise that in Christ she would bring forth the source of life.

Genesis 3:20-21
  • "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
  • Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

God designated that from this Woman would come Christ the Saviour, the true source of all life and the true head of all living. Adam being made head of the woman, who is subject to Him, prefigured all this. And as stated, the coats of skins provided by God for Adam and Eve most certainly "implies" that they were both saved by the unmerited act of God. And if saved, we know Adam and Eve repented. Maybe not in the way some Christians expect, but as God provides. In my humble opinion, they showed afterward the proper evidence that they were sincere in their love for God.

Matthew 3:8
  • "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

I believe that they brought forth the proper fruits evidencing repentance and sincerity by forsaking sins.  Adam and Eve quite obviously obeyed God in offering sacrifices, as they trained their sons to show reverence in bringing offering unto the Lord of all that they had. This is seen in the bringing of an acceptable offering and a unacceptable offering by sons Abel and Cain. An offering of blood acceptable to God, and one without the shedding of blood which God rejected unfavorably. The LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering because it pointed to the God sacrifice, which is the only salvation of man. Which is clearly an act of the unction from God illustrating the spiritual nature of salvation by Grace. While Cain's offering was not of Grace but the work of his own hands, clearly Abel's was. Scripture doesn't have to say "Adam and Eve Repented of their Sins,'' we can glean that they found repentance (Hebrews 12:17)  from other scriptures illustrating they were saved.

Hebrews 12:28
  • "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

I believe that the fact that they continued to serve God and count all things received as from God, including their children, and trained up their sons as Godly seed in first Abel and then Seth. God continued to bless and provide for them after the Fall. Illustrating that they were not condemned or an enemy of God (as some believe) after they were cast out of the Garden. There are just so many little clues in scripture that they were saved and "none" illustrating they were of the Devil.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Adam and Eve Saved?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 03:44:34 AM »
>>>
 Gen. 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Why do you think God specifically tells us that they were not ashamed? But after they sinned, their eyes were opened that they "recognized their sin" and so were ashamed and sewed leaves together to try and cover it.

 Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 There was not found a sufficient covering in their leaves, but they found grace in the sight of God who Himself made a covering for them. All these things indicate they repented and were saved.
<<<

Agree 100 percent. In their attempt to themselves cover their nakedness in the leaves from the "Fig Tree" we see a portrait or illustration of their recognition of their sin, and their knowledge of a need for a covering. The Lord is giving us these spiritual picture puzzles to educate us.

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

The eyes of both of them were opened wherein they knew their nakedness, and so they toiled in gathering and sewing fig leaves together to make aprons that their nakedness might be covered. But we see they also "BOTH" understood their makeshift covering was insufficient, and so hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God who they knew would recognize sin, even sin attempted to be covered up the work of man.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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