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Author Topic: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch  (Read 4114 times)

Dave Taylor

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Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« on: April 15, 2005, 05:39:29 PM »
In a thread discussed several months ago; the topic of the deaths of Moses and Elijah were discussed in fairly clear detail on this thread:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=854.0

Just wondering if we could commit a similar study to old Enoch....or if Tony might have an article available that already delves into Enoch.

I believe the Bible makes it abundantly clear in the NT; that Jesus; not Enoch nor anyone else; is the first to bodily ascend into the 3rd Heaven of Heavens...therefore; what of old Enoch?


andreas

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2005, 10:24:07 PM »
David,

We know that there are three heavens,the highest being the third heaven,the very dwelling of the Ancient of days.
 
 "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."  Genesis 5:24 

 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God." Hebrews 11:15

 Enoch ascended to heaven, but we are not told which one,while on the other hand we are definitely told that the Son of Man was the only one,and the first, to ascend to the third  heaven.
 
"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man" John 3:13

Only after the cross was anyone taken to the third heaven,including Enoch.

"When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive,and gave gifts unto men".Ephesians 4:8
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Dave Taylor

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2005, 08:15:56 AM »
I agree.

Just wondering why the hebrew writers intent was.

Enoch; of all the pre-flood patriarchs listed; did not have a prolonged life-span circa 900 years....he was a teenager of a mere 300+ when he 'left the scene'.

The Hebrew writers phraseup so that 'By faith Enoch was taken  he should not see death'....that is the crux of the key to understand Enoch's mystery, IMO.

What did he mean by 'should not see death'?

Was it in reference to the death that would occur around him had he lived into his 900s and witnessed the flood?  (seems a stretch since Enoch was born over a thousand years before the flood)

Could it have simply meant that because of his faith; God preserved Enoch's life from the hands of wicked men who would have sought to kill him because of his righteousness during those days? 

Not that death itself was excluded from Enoch; but that he was prevented from it at some event; kinda like Daniel and the Lion; or Shadrach and friends and the furnace?

I would tend to think; in the unfortunate absence of clarifying scripture; that this postulate bears the most likely creedance with the scriptures we do have.

It is abundantly clear, as you say, however, from the scriptures; that Enoch did not bodily ascend into the 3rd Heaven prior to Christ.

That like Elijah, is a myth that has filtered over from Judaism, Catholocism, and into the Protestant Churches....We need more Bereans out there busting these unbiblical myths.

andreas

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2005, 11:18:44 PM »
God did not allow Enoch to be killed by his enemies .We are told "and Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.Genesis 5:24

The apostle Paul describes it this way: "By faith Enoch was
translated so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found
because God had translated him; for before his translation he had the
witness that he had pleased God well."  Hebrews 11:5.

Translated as not to see death.  How??

 God put Enoch into a trance, even as the apostle Paul was "caught away," or translated,  receiving a vision of the spiritual paradise.  2 Corinthians 12:3, 4
 The  evidence, that Enoch had been pleasing to God could have entailed a similar vision of the future  paradise and  Enoch's life being cut short while he had the vision,so he did not actually see his own death,but he knew that he pleased God well, by having the vision.(Pure speculation on my part.Please forgive me.).

That he had to die at some stage is clear from 1 Corinthians 15:36-44,and verse 50 says that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom."

Also,

" By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their god,for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:4-16.

All mentioned in these verses died icluding Enoch,and further more, we are told in verse 13,that they did not receive the promises.Verse 16 tells us that one of the promises was a heavenly country.If young Enoch was in heaven,he would have received the promise.The fact is, that he is dead awaiting the resurrection, like all the other saints.

"Remember how short my time is;wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
What man is he that liveth and shall not see death?Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Psalm 89:47-4

Why the question if Enoch did not see death?

So what does should not see death mean?

In Luke 2:25-29,Simeon ,we are told , should not see death, before he had seen Jesus,that is physical death,the first death.

In John 8:51, the phrase "shall never see death" ,must mean the second death.

So what is it with Enoch,the first or second death?

Romans 5:12-14 says that ALL men die,because all have sinned.

To conclude,in the case of Enoch ,it must be the second death.


andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Dave Taylor

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2005, 10:37:56 AM »
I'm suprised there has been so light a discussion on this Enoch thread.

Is it that everyone agrees with Andreas; or that everyone is unsure and doesn't want to speculate?

Tony....do you have anything on 'Enoch'?

Raybob

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2005, 05:57:00 AM »
Dave,
I think no one is adding to this thread because you pretty much said it all.  As I progress in my studies, I've found that if one scripture seems like it is a contradiction to other scriptures, I am probably not 'interpreting' something correctly.  When I believed in a future 1000 year reign, there were far too many scriptures that seemed like contradictions such as all the last day passages or judgment day passages.  Now that I realize the reign is a description of present day reigning, not a future event, all those 'contradictions' are no longer contradictions.  Alll those OT prophecies that didn't make any sense before, now make sense.

I haven't really thought about what I was taught about Enoch and Elijah until this thread came up but what you have pointed out makes perfect sense.  Yes, "God took him" but you can say the same thing about anyone that ever died.  Jesus was the first to enter heaven.  It is appointed for men to die, then come to judgment.  Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.  The thought that Enoch or Elijah didn't die contradicts more than just one passage.  If Enoch didn't see death, God obviously took Him in his sleep or some other unconscious state, it appears to me.

Thanks for bringing this up,
Raybob

Dave Taylor

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2005, 12:33:37 PM »
Bump to revitalize this thread....

Anyone want to give some additional info and understanding here?

Tony, what about it?

Tony Warren

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2005, 04:01:30 PM »
>>>
Anyone want to give some additional info and understanding here?

Tony, what about it?
<<<

I don't know dave, what do you think?


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Dave Taylor

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Re: Moses and Elijah....now Enoch
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2005, 10:23:54 PM »
What I listed above was about all I have.

I don't accept the popular myths that Enoch and Elijah were bodily transferred into the 3rd Heaven.
NT makes it clear to me that Jesus alone, is the only person to have done this bodily.

Maybe if we examined the useage of the NT reference use of the word 'translated' against other NT passages and/or OT LXX passages that might use that word also....maybe I can look into that next week.

 


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