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Author Topic: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24  (Read 41140 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2003, 07:45:24 PM »
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>>>
First, the apostasy and travail when the two witnesses were lying dead in the streets. It considers as "beginning of sorrow", right?
<<<

I believe that the trvail (beginnings of sorrows) is before the two witnesses are killed and before the ultimate fall of Babylon. The great Apostasy or falling away from the faith (1st Timothy 4:1) preceding the fall of Babylon the great.

i.e., the fall of babylon is judgement of God "For" this departing from the faith.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Jeff

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2003, 08:49:14 PM »
How do we know that we're in the great tribulation period? Not just because we see apostasy, because Christians have seen apostasy before. But what is different about now that shows us we're in the great tribulation?

Erik Diamond

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2003, 11:02:46 AM »
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I believe that the travail (beginnings of sorrows) is before the two witnesses are killed and before the ultimate fall of Babylon. The great Apostasy or falling away from the faith (1st Timothy 4:1) preceding the fall of Babylon the great.

Tony, you probably caught me a little off guard regarding "Beginning of Sorrow".  ::)

I thought that the beginning of sorrow starts after God have finish sealing His people. Not when the two witnesses were still testimony for salvation.  

Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The war, famines, pestilences and earthquakes are the signs of the Great Tribulation, right? Since the famine will start only after God have finished sealing all of his people? And Matthew said that "ALL" these are the "beginning of sorrows".  Maybe I am not sure I understand you 100 percent as to why you felt the "Beginning of Sorrow" has to start before the Great Tribulation and when the Two Witnesses were still alive and preaching salvation.  

Interesting, verse 9 above said "THEN" they will kill you. Does it also means the killing of two witnesses which marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation?

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I believe Christ is telling us that the Great tribulation period of departing from the faith, false Christs, and false prophets must take place "Before" the end of the world. It is not yet the end of the world, it is the beginning of trvail. Like a volcano rumbling before the time of it's actual eruption. There is yet a time period before Christ returns.

The fall of the Church, the coming out, the standing afar off, the judgement of the whore. This is all "after" the time of travail, and precedes Christ's second advent.

Tony, I totally agree. I actually liked volcano idea.  ;)

The killing of the Two witnesses takes place in the first part of the Great Tribulation (after their testimony is finished or have accomplished God's purpose to save all elects).  Their bodies will be lying dead in the street signifies our gospel has been silenced. Then after 3 and half days, God gave us the "spirit of Life" or increasing knowledge that will help us be able to discern the abomination of desolation taking place in Judea and see the man of sin being revealed.  This is the beginning of the last part of the Great Tribulation , which I believe is the second woe, where we are commanded to get out, standing afar, mourning over the city, for the desolation is coming upon her.  The only next event is the third woe, and the Second Coming of Christ.

I think we both agrees pretty much on this, but what I like to know more from you is why you believe the "beginning of sorrow" has to take place before the killing of the Two Witnesses.  How long this beginning of sorrow really last approximately? The whole church age or couple of years before the killing of two witnesses.  

Last, it seems that we are already deep into the second woe, or the last part of the Great Tribulation, because it seems that more and more people (yet few of us) can be able to 'see' what is going on and have depart out of the church.  I guess, Tony, that we don't have much time left on earth.  :-\

Thank you for your time and responses, Tony!

Erik Diamond

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2003, 06:05:08 PM »
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>>>
I thought that the beginning of sorrow starts after God have finish sealing His people. Not when the two witnesses were still testimony for salvation. 
<<<

Are you under the impression that the two witnesses go along testifying to the gospel of Christ, and then on one given day they can't testify anymore? I don't believe that. Apostasy in the church is a "gradual" process meaning that it doesn't take place on one day. I believe that these "days" of gradual coming into apostasy are the beginnings of sorrow, a time of pain and travail when the church is under assault and trial. Some will endure, most will not, and thus the churches will fall under weight of those who will not.

1st Peter 1:5-7
  • "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
  • Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
  • That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

This is the church's trial of faith and those who fall into fornication, God will judge. The fall is a result of those who have been tried, and found wanting.


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>>>
Interesting, verse 9 above said "THEN" they will kill you. Does it also means the killing of two witnesses which marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation?
<<<

The killing of the two witnesses (the believing & faithful church) "after" their testimony is finished I believe is an entirely different matter than the rising persecution in the "beginnings of travail" in the church when men begin to depart from the faith. The judgment of the church by God is "Because" of this persecution and 'after' the witnesses are killed. I don't believe that they are one and the same. One occurs first, then the other.


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>>>
I think we both agrees pretty much on this, but what I like to know more from you is why you believe the "beginning of sorrow" has to take place before the killing of the Two Witnesses.  How long this beginning of sorrow really last approximately? The whole church age or couple of years before the killing of two witnesses.
<<<

I don't think God gives us that type of time-centered information. How long the travail lasts is God's business. I'm sure He doesn't want us counting days. At least not literal ones. Suffice to say that it takes place prior to the fall of the Church, which is its logical judgment. The time when Israel is completely restored, and thus the testimony finished, I don't think is for us to know.

Acts 1:7
  • "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

I think we must remember that when Satan takes a seat in the Temple, the testimony there is silenced. That language of taking a "seat" means that this spirit rules there. It has control. By that time, their testimony in that church I think has come to an end. Prior to that, the witnesses "had power" over those who would come against them. The power of fire (the Word of God) from their mouths. See Revelation 11.When Satan rules, he overcomes and silences that word in the churches.


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I guess, Tony, that we don't have much time left on earth.
<<<

Time is relative. Anyone who has come out of the church already, may think the Lord is coming tomorrow or next week. Others may think Christ may be coming soon, as in a month or a few years, and still others may believe there are few signs yet that the end is imminent. The times and seasons are in the hand of God, not man. Our duty is to "Watch!" Yet, even the Apostles could not watch, but slept as the wicked came to take Christ. This I believe can also be seen in the parable of the 10 virgins.

He who hath an ear, let him hear.

The call from the Lord is to Watch! When we do that, we are doing what is required of us. When we see abomination stand in the Holy place, when-ever we see it, we flee from it. And we see it by Watching! I do not believe there is any profit in counting anything except the number of the beast. Therein is wisdom and understanding.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Nikki

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2003, 05:40:48 PM »
If Christ was talking about prophecy that wouldn't happen locally in a few years, what does this verse mean?

 Matthew 24:34

 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Sounds like it would all occur in that generation.

Tony Warren

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2003, 07:52:10 PM »
If Christ was talking about prophecy that wouldn't happen locally in a few years, what does this verse mean?
 Matthew 24:34
 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Sounds like it would all occur in that generation.


This generation refers to the generation, or family of evil. Click here for further information:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/generation.shtml

If it referred to that literal generation, then there is nothing left to be fulfilled. We'd all have to become full Preterists. But all has not been fulfilled, and that generation has not passed. And it won't pass "Till He Come."

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Pearson

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2003, 08:44:40 PM »
"How can anyone say we are in the great tribulation if many have not come claiming to be Christ yet?"

Great tribulation means a time of great tribulation or trouble for the faithful Church. This time we live in definately qualifies. The doctrines of the Church which are routinely rejected today wouldn't even be a serious issue in the reformation times, like divorce on demand, a woman's right to abortions, and the live and let live Church policy about homosexuals. It is tribulation for anyone speaking out in the church against these abominations. They are either shut down, or thought of as trouble makers who don't understand grace, and are usually eventually asked to leave. If you want tribulation, start telling the members of your Church that divorce is not permitted and is an abomination 5that God hates. See how fast you'll become an outcast and silenced. This is what trouble or tribulation for the saints is. It's what they get when they stand up for the truth.

As opposed to what many think will happen, in literal physical persecution.

Robert Powell

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2003, 07:42:47 PM »
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Perhaps someone else can answer my question.

Ok, I'll give this a shot. We know it's the great tribulation because the signs which can only be the great tribulation are present today. They've never been present like this before.

 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:21).

God warns us because we can know, not because we can't know. Some christians have become worldly and blind themselves to the change that has occured in the Church. But asking those who separate themselves from the world how they know it's the great tribulation, is like asking them how they know Jesus is the Christ. Some worldly people don't see that He is, but Christians know he is by being bereans and faithfully studying the scriptures. The same with the great tribulation. Knowledge is of Christ.

  "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:" (2 Pe 1:2-3)

Through knowledge of him we can see the signs of great tribulation in the world around us. It's almost total apostasy. As someone said before, just pick a church and go to it and you'll see it is as worldly as vegas in some places, and at best it's falling away. The last Church I went to had a woman come in to preach. And I was told I was the one who didn't understand scripture when I brought up God's word against it.

Like I said, you have to have true knowledge of God to see the signs.

Jeff

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2003, 04:57:52 AM »
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Ok, I'll give this a shot. We know it's the great tribulation because the signs which can only be the great tribulation are present today. They've never been present like this before.
I'll play the advocate. List a few of the signs. I'm hearing a lot of generalizations from you guys. What signs? Haven't we always had some people in the Church who were unfaithful? For example, the Catholic Church for hundreds of years has been unfaithful, and growing like dandylions all that time. So what makes now the great tribulation?

 It's a good question, isn't it? I think so.

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2003, 08:19:39 AM »
Like I said before, could it be that it is both spiritual and physical? Because I see some strikingly similar actions in Matthew 24 and the fall of Old Testament congregation, and Matthew 24 and the fall of the New Testament congregation. Could matthew 24 be dealing with the fall of israel, and spiritually the fall of the Israel?

Consider that not one stone was left standing in old testament Israel because it is no longer the congregation of God. And the stones are symbolic of those in the congregation. Something to think about. We should have an open mind about this.

Rebel

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2003, 12:56:20 PM »
Frank,  
       You  said:
                     
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Consider that not one stone was left standing in old testament Israel because it is no longer the congregation of God.  And the stones are symbolic of those in the congregation. Something to think about. We should have an open mind about this.
 I'm  assuming  you're  talking  about  the  prophecy  in  Matthew  24:2  where  Jesus  said  to  His  disciples  as  they  admired  Jerusalem,

     "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

   
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 "Consider  that  not  one  stone  was  left  standing  in  old  testament  Israel  because  it  is  no  longer  the  congregation  of  God."    
       Ahh,  yes  there  are  stones  left  standing! There's  a  wall  that  is  still  there  from  the  old  kingdom  of  Israel.  It's  known  as  the  Western  Wall.  I  know  this  is  a  little  off  the  subject,  but  you  can't  interpret  Matthew  24:2  literally  when  I  can  go  to  thewall.org  and  stare  at  a  live  picture  of  what's  left  of  old  Israel.  
  I'm  nuts  about  Israel.  I  studied  Hebrew  and  do  a  lot  of  research  on  Israel  and  I'm  very  interested  in  Israel  Bible  prophecies  (literal  or  spiritual!)  Not  only  is  the  Western  Wall  a  part  of  Israel,  it's  also  a  part  of  the  temple  itself---  yes,  the  same  temple  that  people  claim  was  completely  destroyed  in  70  A.D.  Frank,  it's  nice  that  you  want  to  mix  spiritual  and  literal  together.  But  before  you  start  playing  around  with  literal  Israel,  I  suggest  you  do  some  research  on  that  country.  
     Now  as  for  the  spiritual  interpretation  of  Matthew  24:2,  I  am  going  to  leave  that  to  the  wiser  ones  here.  This  kid's  said  enough! 8)
     Grace  be  with  you  all,
                                          Rebel
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Frank Mortimer

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2003, 06:32:12 PM »
Did I not say that, not one stone was left standing in old testament Israel because it is no longer the congregation of God, and that the stones are symbolic of those in the congregation? I wasn't talking about literal stones in a literal temple obviously. I was talking about the people of old testament israel falling (stones) and perhaps that being equated with the people of the new congregation falling (stones). That's why I said the people of the congregation are stones. I was equating the fall of Israel to the fall of the Church and saying maybe Matthew 24 addresses both.

Rebel

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2003, 07:46:44 PM »
Frank,  I'm  sorry  too.  Now  I  see  what  you're  getting  at.  I  didn't  quite  understand  what  you  meant  earlier.
Ooops! :)
Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

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Layla

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2003, 10:01:13 PM »
Greetings Frank

That's kinda how I see it also.  Literally being played out in the natural only it has to be spiritually discerned to see.  I'm praying for that spiritual discernment because there's apparently a whole lot to be played out in the natural, imo.

Peace,
Layla

Nikki

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Re: Expositions of Matthew Chapter 24
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2003, 04:57:09 AM »
How does the Matthew 24 prophecy relate to the Luke 21 prophecy which is almost identical?

Doesn't it promise that Israel and the Jews will rule over us, persecute us in synagoges and cast us into prison?

Then it says christians will be given words of God which the persecutors can't gainsay or resist? There are those who say this was fulfilled in 70 A.D. So how do you explain this?

 


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