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Author Topic: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?  (Read 1023 times)

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 02:17:17 AM »
The elect were never under God's wrath, for scripture can't support that, in fact, the elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 09:00:17 AM »
The context of Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy,
for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

It mitigates against Gods wrath being on the elect while in a state of nature, and instead makes it seen that Gods disposition towards them in that state was one of MERCY and even Great Love. Now its an contradiction in God to say that He was loving and merciful to the elect while children of wrath by nature, and then say He was wrathful and hating them while they were by nature children of wrath.

Robert Powell

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2018, 11:07:08 AM »
tony

Quote
That's not a denial of Romans 5:10, in fact it is an affirmation of it. We "affirm" Romans 5:10 exactly as it was inspired written. It means what it said, not what others claim it implies.

Yes it is a denial. Paul was writing to Roman Believers and he wrote Rome 5:10

For if, when we[Believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Why would we need to be reconciled with God if according to your philosophy we were children of God from birth? Reconciled means we are estranged from him, not beloved, not affectionate to someone, alienated from someone. Like the man said, round and round you go. I tell you, you're making me pull out my hair!!! We weren't children of God from birth and no scripture ever says that. I'm tempted to say you fabricated that.

You know, first I thought you just didn't understand what these Christians were saying. But as these posts continued, I see that it's more pride than a lack of understanding. The idea that we were children of God from birth, and were never by nature degenerate and under wrath of God clearly contradicts scripture. Yet you think we're the ones who are blind to understanding? You're worse than the Jews were in believing that they were all elect from, and by birth, and so they could never be under judgment of God. But they were the ones who were blind and who came under wrath of God. You also boldly declare those disagreeing with you (not scripture because no one disagreed with that), as false, as denying scripture and as fabricating their beliefs. And while your one Romans scripture proves you are right, the many opposing scriptures given by others are all wrong or misinterpreted or fabricated. For the record, I guess most of the Christians who wrote the commentaries are in the same boat as we are. Because they make it plain that we were indeed under wrath of God just as all mankind is by nature. Just as we have been saying. Yet you still think you are the only one not fabricating this idea. Not that we need the commentaries, because we have read it in the bible for ourselves, but just a few examples to end this nonsense for he who hath an ear to hear.


Barnes Commentary
In the lusts of our flesh. Living to gratify the flesh, or the propensities of a corrupt nature. It is observable here, that the apostle changes the form of the address from "ye" to "we," thus including himself with others, and saying that this was true of all before their conversion. He means undoubtedly to say, that whatever might have been the place of their birth, or the differences of religion under which they had been trained, they were substantially alike by nature. It was a characteristic of all that they lived to fulfil the desires of the flesh and of the mind. The design of the apostle in thus grouping himself with them was, to show that he did not claim to be any better by nature than they were, and that all which any of them had of value was to be traced to the grace of God. There is much delicacy here on the part of the apostle. His object was to remind them of the former grossness of their life, and their exposure to the wrath of God.


Burkitt Commentary
Eph 2:3
Our apostle in these words is supposed to set forth the condition of the Jews by nature, as he had done before of the Gentiles; and that he declares, that even they had their conversation amongst the number of disobedient persons, and were no less obstinately rebellious against God than the disobedient Gentiles, following the motions of their corrupt lusts and vile affections; nay, he affirms roundly, concerning himself and all the Jews, without exception, that as to their way and course, whilst unregenerate, they did whatsoever their corrupt minds willed, liked, and inclined to; and as to their state, were by nature children of wrath, as much as others; yea, even as much as the despised Gentiles were.
Here note, 1. The case of all men, Jews and Gentiles, alike described, children of wrath; that is, our estate and course is such by nature as deserves destruction, as tends to and will end in destruction, without the renewing grace of God.

Note 2. The rise of this case, expressed by nature, which implies,

1. The term from which this commences, namely, from the first receiving of our beings and natures from our immediate parents, and together with the depravation of our natures we received an obnoxiousness to the wrath and curse of God.

2. It implies the ground for which this wrath doth impend and hang over us, namely, for that depravity of nature which since the fall is found with us.

Learn hence, 1. That original corruption is universal to all mankind, both Jew and Gentile.

2. That this original corruption leads to, and will lodge under, eternal wrath, every person in whom regeneration and transplantation into Christ are not found: We were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Geneva Commentary
Eph 2:2
3Wherein in time past ye walked 4according to the course of this world, baccording to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now 5worketh in the cchildren of disobedience:
3. He proves by the effects that all were spiritually dead.

4. He proves this evil to be universal, insomuch that all are slaves of Satan.

b. At the pleasure of the prince.

5. Men are therefore slaves to Satan, because they are willingly rebellious against God.

c. They are called the children of disobedience, who are given to disobedience.

Benson Commentary
 In the lusts of our flesh — To the base appetites of which we were enslaved, so as to forget the true dignity and happiness of rational and immortal spirits: fulfilling the desires of the flesh — Yielding to, and suffering ourselves to be governed by those corrupt appetites, inclinations, and passions, which had their seat in our fallen body, or in our evil nature; and of the mind — The earthly and devilish mind, that is, the desires, lusts, and passions, which were inherent in our still more corrupted souls. Observe, reader, the desires or lusts of the flesh, lead men to gluttony, drunkenness, fornication, adultery, and other gross, brutal sins: and the inclinations or desires of the mind, or imaginations, (as d?a?? ?? ? may be rendered,) prompt them to ambition, revenge, covetousness, and whatever other earthly and diabolical wickedness can have place in the fallen spirit of man. And were by nature — That is, in our natural state, or by reason of our natural inclination to all sorts of evil, and this even from our birth; children of wrath — Having the wrath of God abiding on us; even as others — As well as the Gentiles. This expression, by nature, occurs also Galatians 4:8; Romans 2:14; and thrice in chap. 11. But in none of those places does it signify by custom, or practice, or customary practice, as some affirm. Nor can it mean so here. For this would make the apostle guilty of gross tautology, their customary sinning having been expressed already in the former part of the verse. But all these passages agree in expressing what belongs to the nature of the persons spoken of.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
2:1-10 Sin is the death of the soul. A man dead in trespasses and sins has no desire for spiritual pleasures. When we look upon a corpse, it gives an awful feeling. A never-dying spirit is now fled, and has left nothing but the ruins of a man. But if we viewed things aright, we should be far more affected by the thought of a dead soul, a lost, fallen spirit. A state of sin is a state of conformity to this world. Wicked men are slaves to Satan. Satan is the author of that proud, carnal disposition which there is in ungodly men; he rules in the hearts of men. From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul;


Pulpit Commentary
 And we were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. This is a substantive clause, standing on its own basis, a separate fact, not merely an inference from the previous statements. The life described would have exposed us to wrath; but beyond and before this we were by nature children of wrath. "By nature" denotes something in our constitution, in our very being; and "even as the rest" denotes that this was universal, not a peculiarity affecting some, but a general feature applicable to all. "Children of wrath" denotes that we belonged to a race which had incurred the wrath of God; our individuality was so far absorbed by the social body that we shared the lot under which it had come.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
children of wrath—not merely "sons," as in the Greek, "sons of disobedience" (Eph 2:2), but "children" by generation; not merely by adoption, as "sons" might be. The Greek order more emphatically marks this innate corruption: "Those who in their (very) nature are children of wrath"; Eph 2:5, "grace" is opposed to "nature" here; and salvation (implied in Eph 2:5, 8, "saved") to "wrath." Compare Article IX, Church of England Common Prayer Book. "Original sin (birth-sin), standeth not in the following of Adam, but is the fault and corruption of the nature of every man, naturally engendered of Adam [Christ was supernaturally conceived by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin], whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil; and therefore, in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation." Paul shows that even the Jews, who boasted of their birth from Abraham, were by natural birth equally children of wrath as the Gentiles, whom the Jews despised on account of their birth from idolaters (Ro 3:9; 5:12-14). "Wrath abideth" on all who disobey the Gospel in faith and practice (Joh 3:36). The phrase, "children of wrath," is a Hebraism, that is, objects of God's wrath from childhood, in our natural state, as being born in the sin which God hates. So "son of death" (2Sa 12:5, Margin); "son of perdition" (Joh 17:12; 2Th 2:3).


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
and were by nature children of wrath, even as others: by which is meant, not only that they were wrathful persons, living in malice, hateful, and hating one another; but that they were deserving of the wrath of God, which comes upon the children of disobedience, among whom they had their conversation; and which is revealed from heaven against such sins as they were guilty of, though they were not appointed to it: and they were such "by nature"; really, and not in opinion, and by and from their first birth: so a Jewish commentator (s) on these words, "thy first father hath sinned", Isaiah 43:27 has this note;

"how canst thou say thou hast not sinned? and behold thy first father hath sinned, and he is the first man, for man , "is naturally in sin";''

or by nature a sinner, or sin is naturally impressed in him; and hence being by nature a sinner, he is by nature deserving of the wrath of God, as were the persons spoken of:


PNTC Commentary
Eph 2:2
According to the course of this world. You lived in trespasses and sins, in accordance with the spirit of the world.
The prince of the power of the air. Called elsewhere the prince of this world [Joh 12:31; 14:30; 16:11], Satan. Why he is called "prince of the power of the air" is not certain; various explanations are given. Probably his subtle influences and whisperings pervade the air, and come upon us as unconsciously as the vital fluid we breathe. The Jews held that the atmosphere was the abode of evil angels.

The spirit that now worketh. This spirit, that of the world, of the power of the air, is the one which inspires those who live in disobedience.


Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
by nature the children of wrath] On the phrase “children of wrath” see last note on Ephesians 2:2. “By nature we were connected with, we essentially were exposed to, wrath, the wrath of God.” It has been suggested that “children of wrath” may mean no more than “beings prone to violent anger,” or even to “ungoverned impulse” generally. But the word “wrath” is frequent with St Paul, and in 13 out of the 20 places it unmistakably means the Divine wrath, even where “of God” is not added, and where the definite article is absent. See for passages specially in point Romans 4:15; Romans 5:9; Romans 9:22; below, ch. Ephesians 5:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Add to this that this passage deals with the deepest and most general facts, and it is thus unlikely that any one special phase of sin would be instanced.—N. T. usage gives no support to the suggested explanation “ungoverned impulse” mentioned above. The word must mean “wrath,” whether of man or of God.—Translate, certainly, with A. V. and R. V.—On the truth that the fallen being, as such, lies under Divine “wrath,” see John 3:36, where “the wrath of God remaineth against” the soul which does not submit to the Son. Not to “possess eternal life” is to have that “wrath” for certain still impending.


Matthew Poole's Commentary
And were by nature; not merely by custom or imitation, but by nature as now constituted since the fall. The children of wrath, by a Hebraism, for obnoxious to wrath; as sons of death, 1 Samuel 26:16, for worthy of or liable to death.


Expositor's Greek Testament Commentary
The term f?s??, though it may occasionally be applied to what is habitual or to character as developed, means properly what is innate, implanted, in one by nature, and this with different shades of meaning (cf., e.g., Romans 2:14; Galatians 2:15; Galatians 4:8, etc.). The clause means, therefore, that in their pre-Christian life those meant by the ?µe?? p??te? were in the condition of subjection to the Divine wrath; and that they were so not by deed merely, nor by circumstance, nor by passing into it, but by nature. Their universal sin has been already affirmed. This universal sin is now described as sin by nature. Beyond this Paul does not go in the present passage. But the one is the explanation of the other. Universal sin implies a law of sinning, a sin that is of the nature; and this, again, is the explanation of the fact that all are under the Divine wrath. For the Divine wrath operates only where sin is. Here is the essential meaning of the doctrine of original sin. That it finds any justification here is denied, indeed, by some; even by Meyer, who admits, however, that elsewhere (e.g., in Romans 6) Paul teaches that there is a principle of sin in man by nature, and that man sins actually because of that innate principle. But he argues that it is in virtue not of the principle itself, but of the acts of sin by which that principle expresses itself, that we are in a state of subjection to the Divine wrath. This, however, is to make a nature which originates sinful acts and which does that in the case of all men without exception, itself a neutral thing.



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ZeroCool

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2018, 12:10:52 PM »
 )GoodPopst(  These truths are nothing new, It's what Christian theologians believed from the beginning because it's what scripture says.

Diane Moody

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2018, 02:33:54 PM »
 )ditto(  it's orthodox theology that hasn't changed since Paul taught it. Funny, we disagree on many things, but this is the one thing we all seem to agree on.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2018, 07:48:48 PM »
The Elect, those Christ died for, even when they were enemies [unregenerate] they had been reconciled to God, by the Death of Gods Son Rom 5:10 so its impossible for them to have been under Gods wrath while they were unregenerate enemies.

Pilgrim

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2018, 09:08:55 PM »
The Elect, those Christ died for, even when they were enemies [unregenerate] they had been reconciled to God

Then how were they estranged from God, far off and then brought near and integrated into Israel?

Ephesians 2:12-13
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

I'll tell you, the more you post in your pride, the deeper your foot slides into the pit. Because if anyone is perpetually denying scripture, it is you.

We were estranged from God, even as strangers from the covenants of promise, we had no hope, and were without God in the world.  But now we are reconciled.

Ephesians 2:18-19
"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Was Rahab the Harlot born a child of God? No, she was a harlot and became a child of God in her conversion to Israel. Stop fighting against God's word.
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Granny

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2018, 12:20:52 AM »

If there is one thing I've learned in my old age savedbysovereigngrace99, it's that pride cometh before a fall.

Proverbs 11:2 "When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom."

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Are those Christ died for ever under Gods Wrath ?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 02:46:59 AM »
The Elect, those Christ died for, even when they were enemies [unregenerate] they had been reconciled to God

Then how were they estranged from God, far off and then brought near and integrated into Israel?

Ephesians 2:12-13
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

I'll tell you, the more you post in your pride, the deeper your foot slides into the pit. Because if anyone is perpetually denying scripture, it is you.

We were estranged from God, even as strangers from the covenants of promise, we had no hope, and were without God in the world.  But now we are reconciled.

Ephesians 2:18-19
"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Was Rahab the Harlot born a child of God? No, she was a harlot and became a child of God in her conversion to Israel. Stop fighting against God's word.

Have you studied those verses ? Thats your responsibility. Rom 5:10 plainly states that the elect were reconciled to God when they were enemies by the death of Christ

 


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