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Apologetics / Re: Are Parents to Blame for Christianity's Decline?
« Last post by Stan Pat on April 16, 2018, 08:27:31 AM »
Is it TV, Parents, liberals, politics or maybe even social networking?

All of the above.
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Believe it or not, Verizon has already started throttling Netflix streaming So if you have Verizon, and are wondering why your Netflix steaming movies are always reloading, buffering or lagging while other streaming services (like Vudu, Hulu, Amazon, etc.) on the same Verizon network do not, Netflix is being throttled because they won't pay the $20.00 extortion fee to Verizon.  It's bound to get worse as these money grubbing companies increase their throttling of streams going to non-business customers. And you have the Republican congress to thank for the anti net neutrality deregulation which makes it now legal to do so. People are so stupid to believe these companies. I'm switching from Verizon, but I'm sure all the companies will be doing the same thing before long.
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Apologetics / Are Parents to Blame for Christianity's Decline?
« Last post by Melanie on April 16, 2018, 06:06:00 AM »
I was thinking this morning about the steady decline of children of Christian parents growing up to be Christians themselves, and thought I would add a poll to this question. Are Parents to blame for Christianity's Decline?

From my perspective I would say yes, but I am interested what you all think about this question because (generally speaking) I respect the opinions of most of you on biblical matters.  What do you think? Is it TV, Parents, liberals, politics or maybe even social networking?
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Apologetics / Re: Are Evangelicals False Prophets?
« Last post by Lieberman on April 16, 2018, 05:49:43 AM »
All I can add is this. Even Trump's most ardent secular supporters will tell you that this man is a man of moral turpitude and depravity above all who went before him, and is changing the landscape of what integrity means. And yet the Christian evangelicals support him totally and unconditionally in record numbers. That's what the polls say. So I have but one question, what does that say about Christian evangelicals? Does it say that evangelicals are themselves immoral? Because last I looked, the Bible says Christians are to shun, abhor, renounce, detest,  loathe, despise, and denounce such unchristian behavior as Trump demonstrates on almost a daily basis. Not to ignore scripture when it says something they don't like, or when it suits their purpose. So are Evangelicals false prophets and fake Christians? Their blindness on almost every issue would seem to support that.

Philippians 4:8-9
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you."

The evangelical says, these things are not as important as politics, or backing Israel unconditionally, ignoring fascism, preaching a earthly kingdom, supporting tribalism, preaching that guns in church are a good thing, turning a blind eye to injustice, preaching that Jews are God's chosen people even without Christ, preaching a doctrine of works vs sovereignty and grace, turning their back on the poor, naked and fatherless, crossing their fingers when there are lies, pretending to speak in tongues and all the other false teachings of evangelicals.

So are they any less blind than Israel was? Are evangelicals any less false prophets than the Scribes and Pharisees were? Think about it.

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Theology / Re: Bart Ehrman
« Last post by Big Ben on April 16, 2018, 03:02:53 AM »
If he's not a Christian, and he is not, then why do Christians care so much about what he says? A hundred anti Christian writers have attacked Christianity but we're not making them famous by posting about and debating them. Ignore him and he'll go away. Debate him and he gains clout. Is it because he is a former Christian that makes Christians want to debate and correct him? Aren't we supposed to shake the dust of our shoes off s a testimony against him.
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Theology / Re: Bart Ehrman
« Last post by tony e on April 15, 2018, 05:46:23 PM »
James white and Daniel Wallace have both debated him. Videos can be found on YouTube. I watched them a few years ago
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Eschatology / Re: The four beasts of Revelation 5 are the Elects?
« Last post by Tony Warren on April 15, 2018, 02:50:41 PM »
>>>
Beside from these very improbable reasons...
<<<

Improbable reasons?

Revelation 5:8-10
  • "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
  • And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
  • And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

What would make you think those words improbable? The four living creatures proclaimed "because thou wast slain, and didst redeem b]us[/b] to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation." What exactly is implausible or unlikely about that testimony? That they and the 24 elders were redeemed out of every nation? 

Or is it that this would preclude them from being Angels, the four gospels, the four apostles, or God Himself?


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...what would make you think these creatures represent God's people?
<<<

Time won't permit me to list the reasons, but how about that they are the "living ones" or living creations in Christ Jesus, or that they are those who were redeemed by the Blood of Christ, or that they are those who never cease to proclaim the holiness of the Lord God Almighty, or that God says the Woman Israel was given Eagles wings, or that they were in the midst of the throne and round about the throne (they reign as kings ruling, and yet they also serve the king ruling). That they are those who dwell within the Temple, who make up the Temple, and yet are also those who are ministers of the Temple which is Christ. That they are Kings and Priests and yet they serve the King and Priest. In short, this illustrates God's redeemed with a very personal and intimate connection with the Lord--that you don't really seem to comprehend.

1st Corinthians 12:12-14
  • "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
  • For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
  • For the body is not one member, but many."

The body is one, though it has many members, a symbol of the body of Christ. Not unlike the symbol of the Temple, Jerusalem or the four living creatures.


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There is more evidence they represent angels or the four gospels than the church.
<<<

If by the translated word "angels" you mean "messengers" as the God inspired and intended word, then I would agree with you that there is a lot of evidence that these four living creatures are a token of those messengers "universally" redeemed by Christ, who don't turn to the right or to the left, that follow the Spirit wherever it leads, and are given Eagles wings and are recognized as the body of Christ. Is it not written in the word of God to whom the word was given, "Ye are gods?"

John 17:22-23
  • "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
  • I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The indwelling Spirit of God, through the Son forms a perfect bond of union, knitting us all together universally into a living unity, symbolized in the four living creatures.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
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Eschatology / Re: The four beasts of Revelation 5 are the Elects?
« Last post by Tony Warren on April 15, 2018, 02:44:45 PM »
>>>
Is that not self serving?
<<<

I don't think so, but how so? I have no vested interest in assigning meanings to Scripture that cannot be validated by the word of God itself. Just the opposite, my interest is only in validated doctrines based solely upon what is written in the Bible. It doesn't serve me in any way to say something that is not true. If you know of something I said that wasn't true, by all means bring it to my attention and I'll endeavor to correct it. Because my vested interest is in getting it right, not in justifying myself in something that might just sound right.


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It's both?
<<<

Sure. I've already given you numerous examples of exactly that recorded in scripture, such as the Light, the Temple or even Israel. So since God has set a legal precedent concerning the body of believers illustrated in the person of the Lord, I don't think you have a leg to stand on in denying such symbolism can be both.

Ephesians 2:21-22
  • "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
  • In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

So then, is the Holy Temple "BOTH" The Lord Jesus Christ and also His Holy messengers? ...You decide.


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You're just trying to defend Tim and Bruno because they are fellow Calvinists.
<<<

I'm merely telling you the truth. Brother Tim and Bruno need no defending from me, as their doctrines are supported by a sound exegesis. What do you support yourdoctrines with? As for being a fellow Calvinist, I'm not a Calvinist so you're wrong on that count as well. I follow Christ, not Calvin. My doctrines are from Scripture, the unadulterated word of God, not Calvin's Christian institutes. So if you have a problem with my doctrine testified from the bible, please show chapter and verse where it is in error. Calvin will have to speak for himself, through his own writings.


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To borrow a phrase you always use, "You can't have it both ways"
<<<

Having it both ways is saying the Covenant is with Israel, but the New Covenant with the church is not with Israel, even though the Lord said He would make a New Covenant with Israel and Christ confirmed it in the church. Having it both ways is saying Jews are Jews by nation, heritage or bloodline, when God's word says Jews are not Jews by that criteria.  That's trying to have it both ways. Having it both ways is not Christ declaring He is the Holy Temple and also declaring His people are the Holy Temple. That sir is divine unadulterated, righteous infallible truth of our blessed and personal communion with God. There's only one way to have it, and that's defining terms on God's terms. ...to have it God's way, which is singular.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
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Eschatology / Re: The four beasts of Revelation 5 are the Elects?
« Last post by Dan on April 15, 2018, 01:02:57 PM »
Whether you love him or loathe him, here’s Harold Camping’s treatment of the four living creatures. I love it, as I do Tony Warren’s post, on this vexing topic:

www.redatedkings.com/download/Living Creatures.pdf

Harold Camping? That's your evidence?
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Eschatology / Re: The four beasts of Revelation 5 are the Elects?
« Last post by Dan on April 15, 2018, 01:02:03 PM »
The four living creatures sung this song saying "they" were redeemed from every people.  Can the four gospels sing? Are the four Apostles redeemed from every nation? Was Christ Himself redeemed so He would be singing as these four living creatures? No. So then, I would say this supports these four living creatures representing neither God specifically nor the gospels, but those in Christ redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb.

Beside from these very improbable reasons, what would make you think these creatures represent God's people? There is more evidence they represent angels or the four gospels than the church.
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