The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Eschatology => Topic started by: BethLLives on May 20, 2004, 04:18:03 PM

Title: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: BethLLives on May 20, 2004, 04:18:03 PM
Shalom everyone  :)
I have been studying a generation.
I would like to share some thoughts with you and see what your thought about it is.
I was thinking about in Matt. ch. 1 where the generations are given unto Christ.
From Abraham to David 14
From David to the carrying to Babylon away 14
From the carrying away of Babylon unto Christ 14
One of the things that seem to be a factor in the generations is every 14 Generations marks when power was changed a kind of changing of the guard so to speak.
I know by history that Judah was taken into Babylon about 586 BC
Now if you divide that by 14 you come to 41-42 yrs being a generation.
Also when you add all the generations unto Christ it is 42.
I heard that from the tabernacle of David unto Solomons Temple was 42yrs.
Also I think if you look at one day with the Lord is a thousand yrs one hour would be about 42 yrs.
I have also pondered the way David seemed to be a foreshadow of Christ first coming.
Like the shepherd who would become the anointed king.(first coming)
How Solomon was rich in wisdom power and glory.(second coming)
How Solomons wisdom was first displayed with the 2 woman and the one child. How perhaps the child was a foreshadow of Jerusalem and the one would rather cut it in two and the other wanted it kept whole so it would live. And Solomon gave it to the one who loved it because her love for it proved the rightful owner. The same way with Jerusalem where God will see to it that it is in the hands of His people who love her (Jerusalem).Another interesting foreshadow of 42 is in Numbers 33 marks the journeys of the children of Israel. So it tells us all the places that the children of Israel camped. Now if you count all their encampment, you would find there are 41, unto the banks of the river Jordan.When Joshua crossed the Jordan it is perhaps symbolic. If a generation is between 41-42 yrs. at the end of the 41st and at the beginning of the 42 perhaps Jesus(Yashua) leads His people into the promise land (New Jerusalem).
If 42 has anything to do with a generation I think that generation started with Jerusalem. Jerusalem had to be in Israels hands before the rest of prophesy could come to pass. This is meant in general time frames for I know we know not the day nor the hour.
If this might be the general time of a generation that would put the last 7 yrs of the 42 years in the time frame somewhere from 2002 to 2008-2009. I am just pondering these things like I do many things .
Also in Matt 1 in the generations.
I began to see what I was looking at was 3 dispensations of time.
If you notice it was divided into three dispensations of time and within each there were 14 generations.
Christ being the 42nd generation.
Then this brought to mind the book of Daniel also Revelation you read where there is examples of using
dispensations of time. It says time , times ,dividing of time.
I know most see this as 3 I/2 years as I use to also see it.
Maybe what is being said is 3 dispensations of time and the dividing of a dispensation of time.
I as I was studying this I began to see how many important symbolic factors began to emerge.
I will try to be as clear as I can which can be difficult when dealing with numbers.
Remember I brought up 586 years from the captivity unto Christ.
How when you divide it by 14 it comes to 41.85 years which is just short of 42.
I used Matt 1 as a tool to look deeper in the generations.
I used 586 yrs to represent a dispensation of time.
Here is a chart to help understand something I discovered:14 generations = 586 yrs. = one dispensation of time
14 generations = 586 yrs = one dispensation of time
14 generations = 586 yrs. = one dispensation of time
06 generations = 251.1 yrs. = dividing of a dispensation of time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
48 generations = 2009.1 yrs. = time, times, dividing of time.
When I saw what it added up to I was amazed at something,
taking the last segment and instead of dividing it into two equal parts as 7 generations and 7 generations
I divided it into 6 generations and 8 generations.
Now I will focus on the 6 generations and the symbolic importance
As you know six is man and imperfection .
Also it represents the 6th day of creation.
It also brought to mind how for 6 days you work and the 7th is for rest.
What better time for Satan to attempt to take over than the in 6th generation?
If you remember Christ said the days had been shorten for the elects sake,
perhaps re-enforcing the dividing into 6 generations and 8 in the dividing the dispensation of time instead of equally.
Then I began to investigate this further and took the last generation (the 6th) and noticed it began in 1967.
The next thing I did was to look at it in whole with all 48 generations.
What better time for our Lords return then in the 49th the Jubilee generation?
I then read Lev.25 where we learn about Jubilee and the kinsman redeemer.
I was amazed , please read it with this in mind.
I then took 2009 and divided it by Jubilees to see how many Jubilees there are and it came to 41 Jubilees
leaving the 42nd to be the time of our Lords return.
So here you have the 49th Jubilee generation and the 42nd Jubilee accruing at the same time ready for Christ.
Now I see even more importance to the 41 and 42 time frame.
I thought also about Joshua and the 41 encampments and then the crossing over the Jordan to go into the promise land being symbolic of Christ and His return and the numbers 41 and 42.
These numbers 41 and 42 came into Christ life from the beginning because I discovered Christ must have been 41 to 42 days old when He first went to the Temple to be dedicated.
Based on the law after a woman gives birth to a boy.
7 days she is unclean and 33 more for purifying. This lead me to think it had to be the 41st or 42nd day that they dedicated Him.
It also came into mind that Christ walked here 40 days after His resurrection so that leads me to think He ascended into heaven on the 41st day. I then remembered what the angels said " why do you marvel the same way He left He would return.
Well I hope I didn't confuse anyone with all this , I hope you will think about it and tell me your thoughts.
Shalom v'brachas,
BethLLives
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Chris on May 20, 2004, 05:11:48 PM
I have one question. What biblical justification can you give to show that the 14 years from abraham to David, or David to Christ is a dispensation?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: BethLLives on May 21, 2004, 09:07:04 AM
Shalom Chris,
 From Abraham to David was 14 generations ,from David to the carrying away to Babylon was 14 generations from the carrying away to Christ was 14 generations not 14 years.
A dispensation of time is simply saying blocks of time.
There were 3 blocks of time and within each block of time there were 14 generations.
I hope I cleared up the matter for you.
Shalom v'brachas  :)
BethLLives
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 11, 2004, 10:34:37 PM
If "this generation" in the gospels always refer to the generation being spoken to,  the fulfillment of "all things written" (Lu.21:22), occurred in the generation of the disciples!

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!


Elect Lady,
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Robert Powell on August 11, 2004, 11:12:20 PM
If "this generation" in the gospels always refer to the generation being spoken to,  the fulfillment of "all things written" (Lu.21:22), occurred in the generation of the disciples!

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!


Elect Lady,

You are clearly wrong, since all has not been fulfilled. There is plenty to be fulfilled.

 Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So it's impossible that this spoke of a generation the way Preterists understand the term. In fact, it makes a mockery of Matthew 24 to think it all is past fulfilled. Listening to them, one would think this is the only chapter that speaks of these things.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on August 12, 2004, 07:23:09 AM
You are clearly wrong, since all has not been fulfilled. There is plenty to be fulfilled.

 Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So it's impossible that this spoke of a generation the way Preterists understand the term.


Very true. And this trumpet at the return of Christ clearly goes hand in hand with the trumpet at the last day when at the sound of the trumpet the lord will come with his angels to rapture the Church. It's at the last trump we all are changed and Christ comes with His angels. How anyone can think this all has been fulfilled boggles the mind. The Preterist view is full of holes.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 12, 2004, 12:10:43 PM
Hi Robert Powell and Reformer,

You can certainly disagree, but except you can prove...

1. This Generation, do not refer to "the generation" to which it was spoken.

And/or

2. The desolation of Jerusalem (Lu.21:20), have not occurred wherby "all things written" have been fulfilled (Lu.21:22)  you are wrong!


Albeit, if the desolation of Jerusalem have occurred, "all things written have been fulfilled" according to (Lu.21:22)!


Have "the desolation of Jerusalem" occurred?

A simple Yes or No, will do!


Elect Lady,
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: kohathe on August 12, 2004, 02:04:10 PM
Elect Lady:

What you fail to see is that the destruction of Jerusalem is not in view in these verses.  Which verse speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem?  And even IF (hyopthetically speaking) Jerusalem were in view, nothing about it has anything to do with the fulfillments spoken of in Luke and Matt. concerning the end of the world.  The phrase "this generation" then would have to mean the whole NT period, then we get continuity.  I hope this helps. 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on August 12, 2004, 02:23:27 PM
Hi Robert Powell and Reformer,

You can certainly disagree, but except you can prove...

1. This Generation, do not refer to "the generation" to which it was spoken.

And/or

2. The desolation of Jerusalem (Lu.21:20), have not occurred wherby "all things written" have been fulfilled (Lu.21:22)  you are wrong!

People can only present scripture, they cannot make you accept it as proof. But many people have given scripture proving Preterism to be horribly wrong, but that doesn't deter anyone from believing it anyway.

 But I still say that any rational person should be able to conclude that all the things in Matthew 24 have not been fulfilled. There hasn't been greater tribulation in 70 ad than the world has ever seen, nor will ever see. That's just not true at all no matter how much they fudge the prophecy. There hasn't been a time when the Lord has shortened the days or else no one on earth could be saved in 70 Ad. That is just not true either. The Lord didn't come in the clouds and every eye see him in 70 ad. So that's not true either. Everyone didn't look up and see the lord come as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west. That didn't happen in 70 ad. In Christ's coming with his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, these angels didn't gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. That just didn't happen in 70 ad. And so on and so forth. So you can protest about this preterist doctrine all you like, but the facts of scripture speak for themselves. You cannot just spiritualize the whole chapter of Matthew 24 away on a whim. You have to have solid biblical reason to do so. And that's the difference between Amillennialists and Preterists.

 Matthew 24:21-22
 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

It's absurd to claim that this was fulfilled in 70 ad.


Quote
Albeit, if the desolation of Jerusalem have occurred, "all things written have been fulfilled" according to (Lu.21:22)!
Have "the desolation of Jerusalem" occurred?
A simple Yes or No, will do!

Yes, at the cross. That's when Jerusalem was left desolate and the Jews left blinded in part. That's when the Jews were branches cut off from the olive tree. Not 70 ad, the Jews were already judged long before then.

And there was no holy temple in Jerusalem in 70 ad to be desolated anyway. The holy temple in 70 ad was the church, not a house full of people who would never obey God and who hated Christ. How could that be God's holy temple over 30 years after Christ died making it nothing but a pile of bricks? So the whole thing makes no sense by scripture.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Bradley on August 12, 2004, 02:26:59 PM
>>>Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!<<<


You are claiming the generation has passed?  You are claiming all things described in Luke 21:5-36 have been fulfilled?

Luke 21:9
9   But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So where is the end?  Has the end come and gone already?

Luke 21:25-26
25   And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26   Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What were the signs in the sun, and in the moon?  When were the powers of heaven shaken?

Luke 21:27
27   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are you saying Christ has come back already?

Bradley


Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: preterist on August 12, 2004, 02:49:48 PM
Quote
>>>Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled? All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!<<<

You are claiming the generation has passed? You are claiming all things described in Luke 21:5-36 have been fulfilled?

Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.


Quote
Luke 21:9
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So where is the end? Has the end come and gone already?

The end is the end of the Old Covenant.

Quote
Luke 21:25-26
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What were the signs in the sun, and in the moon? When were the powers of heaven shaken?

Yes, figurative language. See the Sun/Moon/Stars thread.

Quote
Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are you saying Christ has come back already?


Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming. Again, the OT describes many "comings" using clouds. Did Caiaphus see it in Matt 26:64? Did Jesus tell him he would?



Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Bradley on August 12, 2004, 03:08:11 PM
>>>Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming. Again, the OT describes many "comings" using clouds. Did Caiaphus see it in Matt 26:64? Did Jesus tell him he would?<<<

preterist,

2 Peter 3:10-12
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When does this happen or has it already happened as well?

Bradley
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Chris on August 12, 2004, 03:54:16 PM
Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.

The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible.


Quote
The end is the end of the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant church didn't start in 70 ad, it was established at Pentecost. The old being done away with and the new replacing it. Preterist, you've got your timing all mixed up.

 Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

You really should let the bible interpret when the new covenant or testament replaces the old.

Quote
Quote
Are you saying Christ has come back already?

Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming.

Ok, now we're back to heresy again.

 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: preterist on August 12, 2004, 05:02:14 PM
Quote
2 Peter 3:10-12
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When does this happen or has it already happened as well?

 

First the "what"

Heaven and Earth is an OT term used to describe the Old Covenant/Mosaic ecomomy.

Is 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.


Now what are the elements? Did Paul use this term anywhere else? Yes. The greek word for elements is used also in these verses and refers to the elements of the Old Covenant.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

So what burns up on the "day of the Lord"? The Old Covenant and all it elements.

Now for the "when".

10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Malachi tells us when the "day of the Lord" would occur.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 


So Elijah gives us a time-frame. Who was/is Elijah? Jesus tells us who he was.

Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Matt. 17:10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.


To further prove John was this Elijah:

Back to Mal. 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luke in teaching on the birth of John says this about him:

Luke 1:17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

 




So the "day of the Lord" was to come in the time-frame of John the Baptist. The Heavens and Earth and the elements were to be burned up at the day of the Lord.

It wasn't until I learned the metaphoric use of scripture that these things started making sense.



Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: preterist on August 12, 2004, 05:21:34 PM
Quote
The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible

My private intepretation agrees with scripture. Do the math.

Matthew 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

So what do you believe scripture teaches concerning the length of a generation? Nothing?

Quote
The New Covenant church didn't start in 70 ad, it was established at pentecost. The old being done away with and the new replacing it. Preterist, you've got your timing all mixed up.

Lets use scripture to tell us.

Heb 8:13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


So according to the writer of Hebrews the Old Covenant has not passed yet. Hebrews was written around AD60's. 

Quote
Ok, now we're back to heresy again.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


No view of preterism believes the resurrection had already occured at the writing of this letter. Moot point.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



So has the Law and Prophets all been fulfilled? If so then Heaven and Earth have also passed. If not then we are still under the Law. Which do you choose?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: plowboy1534 on August 12, 2004, 06:28:36 PM
And what about 1 Thessalonians 13-17?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
How does the preterist interpret that?

tornpage
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on August 12, 2004, 07:05:28 PM
Quote
The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible

My private intepretation agrees with scripture. Do the math.


17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


Well now I see why your timing is all off on the covenants, and on 70 AD.  Let me make it elementary for you. If each generation is 40 years as you claim,

Do the match? OK, if you insist!

14 Generations
X3
-------
42

  42
X40 years each
------
1680 years from Christ to Abraham

That's absurd! It's been at least 2000 years by everyone's account, and probably a lot more. That is to say, everyone who knows anything about the bible, history, or both. Nothing that you have said has proven to be accurate or true. From the leveling of Jerusalem to the ground, to the claim that the bible says 40 years is a generation. So why is that? Your doctrine is unsound, so there's not really much I can add to it. You've given no scripture to prove anything, including these verses you claim prove a generation is 40 years.


Quote
So what do you believe scripture teaches concerning the length of a generation? Nothing?

The scriptures teach that the length of a generation can be any number of years. You'd know that if you only read the bible and let it interpret itself instead of trying to push Preterism. The children of Israel were prophecied to be in Egypt 4 generations. And theyy were. Are you telling us they were there 160 years when God plainly said they were there 430 years? You see the people here can count. Does that sound like 40 years a generation to you?


Quote
Lets use scripture to tell us.

Heb 8:13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


What a convenient translation.

 Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The apostle Paul in the preceding verses proved the insufficiency of the old covenant, and the necessity of the new, and here he informs us of the abrogation of the old covenant, and with the preaching of the new making converts, it's is ready to vanish away from sight. Not that it was still valid until 70 AD (which is your doctrine), but that the remnant are still being converted.Just as Peter after Pentecost still held that Gentiles were not permitted in, he had to be convinced that the old was gone, and the new had come. In that sense only it was vanishing.


Quote
No view of preterism believes the resurrection had already occured at the writing of this letter.

But the resurrection and the second coming of Christ are simultaneous. Not a moot point!

Why don't you try addressing some of the contradictions put to you that couldn't have possibly occurred in 70 AD instead of dancing around them?

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 12, 2004, 07:21:04 PM
Elect Lady:

What you fail to see is that the destruction of Jerusalem is not in view in these verses.

  Which verse speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem?  And even IF (hyopthetically speaking) Jerusalem were in view, nothing about it has anything to do with the fulfillments spoken of in Luke and Matt. concerning the end of the world. 

Hi Kohathe,

Perhaps, the Scriptures can answer your questions...

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in JUDAEA flee to the mountains: and let them which are in the midst of it depart out: and let them that are in the countries enter therein.

Compare...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see "the abomination of desolation," spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:!

16 Then let them which be in JUDAEA flee into the mountains.

And...

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the "abomination of desolation," spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in JUDAEA flee to the mountains.

Are you not aware these are all describing the same event, "the desolation/destruction of Jerusalem"?

If in doubt, notice the flee to JUDAEA in all three!

Elect Lady,

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 12, 2004, 07:24:43 PM
>>>Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!<<<


You are claiming the generation has passed?  You are claiming all things described in Luke 21:5-36 have been fulfilled?

Luke 21:9
9   But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So where is the end?  Has the end come and gone already?

Luke 21:25-26
25   And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26   Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What were the signs in the sun, and in the moon?  When were the powers of heaven shaken?

Luke 21:27
27   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are you saying Christ has come back already?

Bradley




Hi Bradley,

Yes, if the Word of God is true and I believe it is!

Elect Lady,
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: kohathe on August 13, 2004, 07:22:20 AM
Hi, Elect Lady:

Jerusalem at the time of its destruction in 70 AD was no longer the "holy place" (after the cross) spoken of in Matthew and Daniel, therefore this would rule out literal Jerusalem.  The only holy place that God could be talking about is the local congergations, and more so in the last days just before his second coming.  You shouldn't take one or two verses and based on that come up with a conclusion or doctrine.  Based on your conclusion, it does not harmonize with everything else in the Bible.  God did not write those verses in Luke and Matthew plainly for anyone to understand.  On the surface, yes, they sound like what had occured in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed, but God spoke in parables and he conceals things in his Word such that only his children whose spirits will help them discern the truth of his word.  Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter."  So truth comes with searching and searching the whole Bible for harmony.     
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 13, 2004, 12:24:43 PM
Hi, Elect Lady:

Jerusalem at the time of its destruction in 70 AD was no longer the "holy place" (after the cross) spoken of in Matthew and Daniel, therefore this would rule out literal Jerusalem.  The only holy place that God could be talking about is the local congergations, and more so in the last days just before his second coming.  You shouldn't take one or two verses and based on that come up with a conclusion or doctrine.  Based on your conclusion, it does not harmonize with everything else in the Bible.  God did not write those verses in Luke and Matthew plainly for anyone to understand.  On the surface, yes, they sound like what had occured in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed, but God spoke in parables and he conceals things in his Word such that only his children whose spirits will help them discern the truth of his word.  Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter."  So truth comes with searching and searching the whole Bible for harmony.     

Hi Kohathe,

Let us be clear, Jerusalem was the holy place until the destruction of Jerusalem AD 70, and Jesus was not speaking in parables, nor was he concealing the facts from the disciples!

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Let them which be in JUDAEA flee to the mountains.


Luke 21:20 And when ye shall SEE Jerusalem" compassed with armies, then KNOW that the desolation thereof is nigh,

21 Then let them which are in JUDAEA flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst depart out; and let not them that in the countries enter thereinto.


Jesus said Jerusalem was the "holy place" at the time of the desolations (not local congregations), besides there is "no longer" a JUDAEA to flee from,  it was destroyed AD 70.


Kohathe,  why do you think Jesus told the disciples to flee JUDAEA?

Elect Lady,





Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: kohathe on August 13, 2004, 02:00:26 PM
Elect Lady:

The church would be the holy place, therefore Judea would have to be the church, and the true believers will flee from the churches as they see the abomination of desolation in them when God has opened there eyes and find shelter in the mountains, that is Jesus. 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on August 13, 2004, 02:16:37 PM
Elect Lady:

The church would be the holy place, therefore Judea would have to be the church, and the true believers will flee from the churches as they see the abomination of desolation in them when God has opened there eyes and find shelter in the mountains, that is Jesus. 

 Lu 21:20-21
 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."
 
How is it that you understand Judea is the Church, synonymous with Jerusalem, and yet you don't understand that the living waters going forth from Jerusalem, would thus be Christ in the Church?

 Jeremiah 2:12-14
 "Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
 14 Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?"

 Jeremiah 17:13
 "O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters."

 John 4:13-14
 "Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

This is the day that living waters went out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea, in summer and in winter. SEE THE SCRIPTURES OF THE BATTLE OF JERUSALEM.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: kohathe on August 13, 2004, 02:44:08 PM
Reformer:

The living water is Christ or the gospel that comes out of Jerusalem or the church when the true believers come out of the churches. That's what I wrote in the other thread.  please check the other thread. 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 14, 2004, 08:59:20 AM
Kohathe,

I do not understead the logic behind your reasoning, and you have not given scriptural support, therefore I surmise you are posting what you have been taught (doctrine of men) rather than believe what the Scriptures teach.


If I am wrong I apologize, and ask what can convince you apart from the Word of God?

Elect Lady,
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 18, 2004, 01:29:18 PM
Hi All,

I submit unto you the WORD of God, and ask you to evaluate it for yourself, and decide if you will believe the word of men or the Word of God...

LUKE 21

5 AND as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for "these things" which ye behold, THE DAYS COME, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down,

7 And THEY asked him, saying Master, but when shall "these things" be? And what sign will there be when "these things" shall COME TO PASS?

8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not "deceived"" for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and THE TIME DRAWETH NEAR : go ye not therefore after them.

 Events that would be occuring (9-19)...

20 And when YE shall SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies, then KNOW that the desolation thereof is NIGH.

21 Then let them which are in JUDEA flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter therein.

22 For these be the DAYS OF VENGEANCE, that ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED.

Coming of the Son of man (25-27)...

28 And when "these things" began to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth NIGH.

Parable of the fig tree (29-31)...

32 Verily I say unto "you" THIS GENERATION "shall not" pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.



Jesus told the disciples the truth, if ...ALL THINGS WRITTEN, WERE FULFILLED, in "the days of vengeance" (Lu.21:22), and THEIR GENERATION did not pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED (Lu.21:32).


Jesus "did not" tell the disciples the truth, if ALL THINGS WRITTEN was not FULFILLED in THEIR GENERATION!

Did Jesus tell the disciples, the truth ?   Yes or No?


Elect Lady,
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on August 18, 2004, 03:35:45 PM
Question #1) More clearly worded in Matthew 24:3b "Tell us, when shall these things be?": 
LUKE 21
5 AND as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down, 7 And they asked him, saying Master, but when shall these things be?

Fulfillment at Calvary:
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?  But he spake of the temple of his body."

Mark 14:58 "We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."

Matthew 23:33, 27 "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him...And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom"



Question #2)  More clearly worded in Matthew 24:3c "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?": 
7b And what sign will there be when these things shall COME TO PASS? 8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near : go ye not therefore after them. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter therein. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 28 And when these things began to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh. 32 Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Yet to be fulfilled prophecy - to be fullfilled at the end on the last day of human mortal history, when Jesus returns physically, visibly, and audibly; Just as Scripture Describes:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."


Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 18, 2004, 05:03:41 PM
Question #1) More clearly worded in Matthew 24:3b "Tell us, when shall these things be?": 
LUKE 21
5 AND as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down, 7 And they asked him, saying Master, but when shall these things be?

Fulfillment at Calvary:
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?  But he spake of the temple of his body."

Mark 14:58 "We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."

Matthew 23:33, 27 "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him...And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom"



Question #2)  More clearly worded in Matthew 24:3c "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?": 
7b And what sign will there be when these things shall COME TO PASS? 8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near : go ye not therefore after them. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter therein. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 28 And when these things began to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh. 32 Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Yet to be fulfilled prophecy - to be fullfilled at the end on the last day of human mortal history, when Jesus returns physically, visibly, and audibly; Just as Scripture Describes:

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."




Hi Dave,

I believe anyone reading the text, will  clearly understand Jesus and the disciple was talking about an earthly temple (and gifts), seeing as how it said ... "as some SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE, how IT was ADORNED with goodly STONES and GIFTS, he said, as for THESE THINGS which you behold, the days come, in which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Lu. 21:5,6).

Jesus was clearly addressing the TEMPLE (and gifts) which the disciples had just mentioned (Vs. 5)!

The Bible is explicitly clear when Jesus spoke of his body as the temple ... But he spake of the temple of his body (Jo.2:21).

That said "was not" Jesus Crucifixion and Resurrection (of his body/temple within three days) during THE GENERATION of the disciples?

Albeit, you  "wrestle" the Scriptures the truth remain the same, the disciples was THE GENERATION, that SAW "the destruction of the temple" (whether stones and mortar, or the temple/body of the Lord).

THE GENERATION, in which...ALL THINGS WRITTEN WAS FULFILLED/ THE GENERATION which shall not "pass away," TILL ALL BE FULFILLED (Lu. 21:22,32)!



Elect Lady,

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on August 18, 2004, 05:44:01 PM
Again you err, EL, because you try to ignore that two questions were asked and two separate answers given by Jesus; one which was a near-term question and another which was a far-term question.

Preterism appears to have fully closed your eyes, and that is a sad thing.

Again.

Question 1) Matthew 24:3b "Tell us, when shall these things be?" 
'these things' being the destruction of the temple which occured in 33 AD as per the scriptures given and rejected by your embracing of Full Preterism.


Querstion 2) "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
'the end' being the future return of Christ as per the scriptures given and also rejected by your embracing of Full Preterism.


You have constantly and consistantly turned a deaf ear to every post that any and everyone has made to you over the last few weeks regarding Full Preterism.

Since you have no intent on abandoning Full Preterism; no matter how many people show you its error from the scriptures;
How much longer to you plan to sow discord on this forum?
Are you proselytizing for Full Preterism?
Are you hoping to draw away converts?

Shall you continue as Paul warned, until the false teachings you continue to promote 'overthrow the faith of some' as Hymenaeus and Philetus did with their teaching of Full Preterism?

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Elect Lady on August 18, 2004, 06:24:46 PM
Again you err, EL, because you try to ignore that two questions were asked and two separate answers given by Jesus; one which was a near-term question and another which was a far-term question.

Preterism appears to have fully closed your eyes, and that is a sad thing.

Again.

Question 1) Matthew 24:3b "Tell us, when shall these things be?" 
'these things' being the destruction of the temple which occured in 33 AD as per the scriptures given and rejected by your embracing of Full Preterism.


Querstion 2) "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
'the end' being the future return of Christ as per the scriptures given and also rejected by your embracing of Full Preterism.


You have constantly and consistantly turned a deaf ear to every post that any and everyone has made to you over the last few weeks regarding Full Preterism.

Since you have no intent on abandoning Full Preterism; no matter how many people show you its error from the scriptures;
How much longer to you plan to sow discord on this forum?
Are you proselytizing for Full Preterism?
Are you hoping to draw away converts?

Shall you continue as Paul warned, until the false teachings you continue to promote 'overthrow the faith of some' as Hymenaeus and Philetus did with their teaching of Full Preterism?



Hi Dave,

NO! I am not doing ANY of the things which you have accused me!

You and others have directed unwarranted slurs at me to which I continually ignore, obeying the word of God...

Romans 12:17 Recompense to "no man" evil for evil.  Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather "give place to wrath": for it is written, Vengeance is mine: I will repay, SAITH THE LORD.

I call heaven and earth to witness between us, and JUDGE who is speaking the Word of God (falsely/erroneosly), from an insincere heart filled with impure motives and reward with us accordingly, in Jesus name!

Elect Lady,

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on August 18, 2004, 09:40:20 PM
I have no slur for you on a personal level e.l.  All posts of mind are directed at the heresy of Full Preterism; not you as an individual.  I agree that we should be peaceable; but we are also taught in the scriptures how to rebuke and stand firm against false doctrines like Preterism.

If you have taken any personal insult by my postings;  I do apologize. 
However, it is the doctrine that is the aim.  If I have said 'you' in a pejorative way, my intent was the doctrine that you hold and continue to defend and advance.

Telling you that you 'err' because you have embraced and will not abandon Preterism is not an insult to you; it is just a statement of the situation.

Has it ever crossed your mind why Full Preterism as a doctrine, didn't existed until the modern ages?

Was it a special secret that God held away from faithful men throughout history; only to bestow on a handful during the last few scores of years?

Again I ask you sincerely, and plainly;

Since you seem to have no intent on abandoning Full Preterism (based on your continued posts in defense of it);
 
How much longer to you plan to try to advance and proselytize Full Preterism on this forum?
and
Is your goal of doing so a hope to draw away converts to Full Preterism?

This board wasn't founded with Full Preterism in mind; so why do you continue to try to advance it here?

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Philly Dawg on August 18, 2004, 11:55:43 PM
Jesus told the disciples the truth, if ...ALL THINGS WRITTEN, WERE FULFILLED, in "the days of vengeance" (Lu.21:22), and THEIR GENERATION did not pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED (Lu.21:32).
Jesus "did not" tell the disciples the truth, if ALL THINGS WRITTEN was not FULFILLED in THEIR GENERATION!
Did Jesus tell the disciples, the truth ?   Yes or No?
Elect Lady,

Elect. It all depends upon how Jesus is using the word generation. He does not lie, you simply do not understand the word correctly. Because the generation he referred to has not yet passed.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Robert Powell on November 17, 2004, 04:05:01 AM
Jesus "did not" tell the disciples the truth, if ALL THINGS WRITTEN was not FULFILLED in THEIR GENERATION!
Did Jesus tell the disciples, the truth ?   Yes or No?
Elect Lady,

Elect. It all depends upon how Jesus is using the word generation. He does not lie, you simply do not understand the word correctly. Because the generation he referred to has not yet passed.


That's what a lot of people do not understand. The word generation is used in many different ways, and people don't like to accept that if they have an agenda. I would suggest reading this article on the word generation.

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things be Fulfilled. (http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/generation.shtml)
-by Tony Warren

 http://www.mountainretreat.org/faq/generation.shtml

We are a chosen generation, and the same chosen generation Paul spoke of. But we're not all living in the same era. We are all the chosen family of God.

 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Baerchild on March 09, 2005, 08:09:45 PM
 1 Peter 2:

    9  But ye are a chosen GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

   10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Can this generation be anything other than The Elect? Were their names not written in The Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world?

Jim
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: WrldTvlr on March 13, 2005, 04:02:18 PM
     H/W are the meanings of "generation" in various passages as per my On-Line-Bible

Generation

1. #Ge 2:4 "These are the generations," means the "history."
2. #Ge 5:1 "The book of the generations," means a family register, or history of Adam.
3. #Ge 37:2 "The generations of Jacob" = the history of Jacob and his descendants.
4. #Ge 7:1 "In this generation" = in this age.
5. #Ps 49:19 "The generation of his fathers" = the dwelling of his fathers, i.e., the grave.
6. #Ps 73:15 "The generation of thy children" = the contemporary race.
7. #Isa 53:8 "Who shall declare his generation?" = His manner of life who shall declare? or rather His race, posterity, shall be so numerous that no one shall be able to declare it.
8. In #Mt 1:17 the word means a succession or series of persons from the same stock.
9. #Mt 3:7 "Generation of vipers" = brood of vipers.
10. #Mt 24:34 "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
11. #1Pe 2:9 "A chosen generation" = a chosen people.
12. The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation. a.In the time of Abraham a generation was an hundred years, thus: #Ge 15:16 "In the fourth generation" = in four hundred years (comp. #Ge 15:13 Ex 12:40) b. In #De 1:35 2:14 a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.

Thus the answer to your question is an unequivocal, It depends.   ;D

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Baerchild on March 13, 2005, 07:05:50 PM
 
10. #Mt 24:34 "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.

WrldTvlr,

I'd get rid of your On-Line-Bible if it promotes the Preterist position, if I were you.  The context in no way supports the teaching which claims that the "generation" of Matthew 24:34 means,  "the persons then living contemporary with Christ."

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Jim
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: WrldTvlr on March 13, 2005, 09:34:39 PM
Quote
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Gill's commentary
Ver. 34. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, &c.] Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

"till all these things were fulfilled; see #Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R.  Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

Mt 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Gill's commentary:
Ver. 28. Verily I say unto you. &c.] This is a strong asseveration, Christ puts his "Amen" to it; declaring it to be a certain truth, which may firmly be believed:

there be some standing here; meaning either his disciples, or some of the audience; for it is clear from #Mr 8:34 that the people were called unto him with his disciples, when he said these words:

which shall not taste of death: that is, shall not die; a phrase frequently used by the Jewish doctors: they say {y},

"All the children of the world, atwmd amej Nymej, "taste the taste of death"."

That is, die:

till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom; which is not to be understood of his personal coming in his kingdom in the last day, when he will judge quick and dead; for it cannot be thought, that any then present should live to that time, but all tasted of death long before, as they have done; for the story of John's being alive, and to live till then, is fabulous, and grounded on a mistake which John himself has rectified at the close of his Gospel: nor of the glorious transfiguration of Christ, the account of which immediately follows; when he was seen by Peter, James, and John, persons now present; for that, at most, was but an emblem and a pledge of his future glory: rather, of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in: though it seems chiefly to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of.

Poole's commentary:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. There are several notions men have of that term, this generation,  some by it understanding mankind; others, the generation of Christians; others, the whole generation of the Jews: but doubtless our Saviour mean's the set of men that were at that time in the world: those who were at that time living should not all die until all these things shall be fulfilled, all that he had spoken with reference to the destruction of Jerusalem; and indeed the most of those signs which our Saviour gave, were signs common both to the destruction of Jerusalem and the last judgment, abating only Christ's personal coming in the clouds with power and glory. So that, considering that the destruction of Jerusalem was within less than forty years after our Saviour's speaking these words, so many as lived to the expiration of that number of years must see the far greater part of these things actually fulfilled, as signs of the destruction of Jerusalem; and fulfilling, as signs of the end of the world.

generation G1074,  ãåíåá?, gnea,  ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Henry commentary on  "This generation" of Mt 24:34:
"There are those now alive that shall see Jerusalem destroyed and the Jewish church brought to an end."


                   


Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Baerchild on March 13, 2005, 10:19:11 PM
WrldTvlr,

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
"till all these things be fulfilled" has not happened.  Let's just start at the beginning of the chapter: 

Matthew 24:

   1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

   2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Since Preterists generally don't understand parables, what about the literal, thousands of stones still standing at the Temple Mount and surrounding area in Jerusalem? 

Preterism is a satanically inspired, pernicious doctrine...avoid it.

Jim
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: WrldTvlr on March 14, 2005, 07:30:27 AM
     Thanks for the help.  I wiil read up on Preterism.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: tysteel on October 11, 2005, 12:25:56 PM
Hi,

I've been reading through many of the back posts of this forum, as well as reading the website articles by Tony Warren and other amillenialists, and I find it very interesting and yet perplexing as to what lengths some will go to allegorizing the Olivet Discourse and it's *literal*  ramifications to those who heard it.   Jesus' words were fulfilled  before that generation passed away, in all aspects, including the Son coming on a cloud of Judgement.    

First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?   Are you kidding me?  Afterall,  the Temple is no longer there for the Jews to make animal sacrfices, now is it?    

I know that some opponents of the Preterist view want to split hairs by saying that there were a couple of places where a stone was left upon another, but I think those who try to discredit the Lord's prophecy miss the entire point of the Olivet Discourse by arguing over little details.      Much like the prophecies of doom in the OT, the Olivet Discourse is meant to put the fear of God into the Israelites to repent of their sins and turn back to the righteous path.  To accept the Messiah.   As Jesus said in the book of Matthew, he was sent only to the Lost Sheep Of Israel, and in light of that statement, we can only assume that the Olivet Discourse isn't directed at a future church, but to the Israelites themselves.  Now, for those who want to wrangle over the details as to whether or not the Temple destruction 70 AD was literal fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, you should be aware that prophets do often employ hyperbole and even poetry, especially if it helps to  get their point across.   You do know this, right?

Take this example from the book of Acts in Chapter 2, when Peter quotes the Prophet Joel,

"it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."

Let me ask you a question, was the spirit literally poured upon ALL flesh?  Absolutely not!  Not every single person, not every single flesh of humanity, had the Holy Spirit poured upon them.   This is hyperbole.  Only those who accepted Christ were baptized with the Holy Spirit.  Not ALL flesh.  

But since this prophecy of Joel was not LITERALLY fulfilled, does that negate God's promises?  Not at all.  You must look past the literalism and hyperbole and understand God's purpose.   Look at the whole picture and see what God is saying with spiritual discernment.

Same is true of the Olivet Discourse.    Some here, including Tony Warren, believe that Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 doesn't pertain to the Temple Destruction since there are a couple of places where *supposedly* it has been reported that in fact one stone was in fact standing on another.   I don't if that is true, but even if that were the case, so what?    If that is your reasoning, then to be consistent you must apply that to the prophecy of Joel, which was quoted by Peter in Acts 2, and thus conclude that it wasn't fulfilled because the spirit was not LITERALLY poured upon ALL flesh.  But of course, the same people who say that Jesus' Olivet Discourse wasn't fulfilled by the Temple destruction because they don't deem the fulfillment *literal* enough, will on the other hand assert that the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled after Pentecost, despite the fact that the Spirit is not literally poured upon ALL flesh.  See the contradictions of those who apply one standard to the Olivet Discourse, but not to other prophecies?

Also, to address what is written later in Matthew 24....

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven and Great Glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the 4 winds."

I'd like to point out that in the original greek, the "angels" mentioned is translated from the greek word  "angeloi".   It can also be translated to mean human messengers who spread the gospel, as is true of how the greek word "angeloi" is used in other verses such as in James 2:25.  

When Jesus's said this to the disciples, they most likely understood that Jesus was speaking in the context of the prophet Isaiah regarding how the survivors of the destruction He just described would befall Jerusalem would preach the Lord's name to distant lands that have never heard of His Glory.  To understand what Jesus is seeing here, we must have context.  Here is the mirror verse:

Isaiah 66:15(NIV)


see, the lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire.  For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgement upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord..

(obviously, coming in a cloud in Matthew 24:30 is a reference to coming in Judgement against Jerusalem and apostate Jews)

"I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations, to Tarshish, to the Libyans, to Tubal, and Greece, and to the distant lands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory"

(in the context of Isaiah,and thus using scripture to help interpet other scripture, what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 31 is his messengers preaching the gospel and gathering his elect through that evangelism.   It doesn't seem to allude to the end of the world, but the end of the Old Covenant (destruction of the temple) and consumnation of the New Covenant.

As the Apostle Paul mentioned at times in his Epistles, Judaizers and those zealous for the old covenant law were the biggest obstacles to the preaching of the Gospel.    They opposed the Christians every chance they go, but with the destruction and desolation  of Jerusalem and Temple worship, this opened a huge window of opportunity for the Gospel to spread further.   As Paul said to the Thessalonians in regards to the Judaizers who opposed the Christians and persecuted them(2 Thessalonians 1:6-....), "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled.....they will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his Holy peope."   Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"




Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on October 11, 2005, 02:39:39 PM
Quote
First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?

The Bible, not preteristic speculations, provide when the phrase, 'there shall not be here one stone left upon another'.

John 2:19-21
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

Matthew 27:40 And saying, "Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. "
 

This occurred at Calvary circa 33 AD; not some 37 years after Calvary.

Preterism misses the most importany event of human history mentioned above in Scripture; and in its place, glamorizes and places undue focus on a non-event that occured 37 years afterward.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on October 11, 2005, 02:55:19 PM
Quote
Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"

Again, Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death at Calvary...not a non-event that occurred 37 years later.

Preterism misses the time of their visitation(circa 0-33AD), in favor of a later time (circa 70 AD) of no significance.

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  This he said, signifying what death he should die."


Luke 13:32 "And Jesus said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.  Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate"

Mark 11:11 "And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.  And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.  And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.  And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.  And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.  And when even was come, he went out of the city.  And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: tysteel on October 11, 2005, 06:44:14 PM
Quote
Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"

Again, Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death at Calvary...not a non-event that occurred 37 years later.

I find the attitude that a war that cost over a million Jewish lives and the destruction of the Temple was not a judgement of God very strange.   The Romans sacked and scorched Jerusalem and the Jews were again uprooted and scattered to the 4 winds.   Similar circumstances had befallen the Jewish people in their history
, as chronicled throughout the OT, all of which had been prophesied as the judgement of God because of the
the iniquity and idolatary of the Israelites.   So why should this be any different?    The war in question is certainly not a "non-event" and it would be facetious to say  that it wasn't the judgement of God. 

You say that Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death,
 but you forget that Jesus pleaded, "forgive them, for they no not what they do".  This is why God didn't destory them right then and there, in my opinion. 

Judgement didn't fall on the Jews till 40 years later.  God gave the Jews 40 years to repent and turn to Christ through the Apostles.   God would forgive the Jews, as Jesus asked on the cross, but they didn't want forgiveness and wouldn't turn to Christ.   Because of their immorality, they were destroyed. 
 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: tysteel on October 11, 2005, 07:01:05 PM
Also, Dave, if we were to take your thesis as being correct that Matthew 24 is purely futurist, then what significance would the following passages have for us:

"but pray that your flight may not be in the Winter or the Sabbath day."

To apply this to the future and to the Christian church, as opposed to the audience to whom Jesus spoke,  would be anti-contextual.      It would fit more with the time of Jesus as Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath, and flight from the city on that day would be difficult in such a case.  (Neh 13:19, 22)  But if you insist that this verse is futurist, then what does it mean to us?

Also, winter conditions were much more harsh on these primitive people than on our modern civilization.  We have vehicles with heating; they had camels.  Flight during winter would present a real dilemma for these people. 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dave Taylor on October 11, 2005, 09:08:12 PM
Quote
Also, Dave, if we were to take your thesis as being correct that Matthew 24 is purely futurist

"My Thesis" on Matthew 24 being purely futurist?

Where?

Where is "My Thesis" about Matthew 24?  I made no reference to Matthew 24 in either of my posts to you....nor did I mention anything purely futurist.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: andreas on October 13, 2005, 12:24:05 AM
 <<<First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?   Are you kidding me?  Afterall,  the Temple is no longer there for the Jews to make animal sacrfices, now is it? >>>   

 Matthew 24,Luke 21 and Mark 13 ,are talking about the end times.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.Matthew 24: 9-14

  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mark13 : 9-13  

 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. Luke 21:12-19  

Having established that we are are talking about the end times ,the next question is what temple is Jesus talking about?

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Matthew 24: 1-2  

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Mark 13: 1-2  

 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Luke 21: 5-6  

 Jesus is not talking about some physical temple.

 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.1 Peter 2:5

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble.1 Corinthians 3:5

The temple that is not going to have one stone upon another,is the corporate church,the congregation,the external representation of the kingdom.

 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:Mark 13:14

Satan does not belong in the church.Apostasy sets in, and the believers leave for the protection of God.They flee to the mountains,and therefore no stones are left in the temple.

andreas.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Peng Bao on October 13, 2005, 07:21:47 AM
Having established that we are are talking about the end times ,the next question is what temple is Jesus talking about?

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

You are so right Andreas. There is no prophecy of Jesus forcasting the old testament Temple being a holy place where believers dwell and must flee from. That's just comon sense and sound biblical exegesis. How in the world are true believers worshipping in the old testament temple in ad 70? They aren't, thus they are not told to flee from it. This is speaking about the end times, not the Preterist historicism of Josephus.

The old testament temple fell at the cross is a given. The new testament temple falls at the time of the end of the world. That's what the bible teaches. Preterism doesn't have a consistent biblical answer to all these questions. They take scriptures out of context and the fudge on other passages. I read where he says we amillennialists are "splitting hairs" by demanding that not one stone left standing one upon another be taken very literally. And he doesn't see his own inconsistency on this. He's claiming to take these scriptures literally, while in his message is scolding amillennialists for taking it very literally as Christ preached it. His witness does not even agree with itself, much less the scriptures.

 Mark 14:58-59
"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. But neither so did their witness agree together."

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: tysteel on October 14, 2005, 01:02:04 AM
<<<First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?   Are you kidding me?  Afterall,  the Temple is no longer there for the Jews to make animal sacrfices, now is it? >>>   

 Matthew 24,Luke 21 and Mark 13 ,are talking about the end times.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.Matthew 24: 9-14

This is obviously about the time period after Christ's resurrection till his 2nd coming.
  It is contextual and relevant to the times of the Apostles after Christ's resurrection.   The Apostles and followers of Christ were persecuted and killed.   This is contemporary to their times.  The pagan Caesars had the christians thrown to the lions in the coliseum and devoured, as well as burning them at the stake and crucifying them, and subjecting the christians to all other manners of excruciating, sordid punishment.    As for "all the world", that is obviously in reference to the known world of their time, the Roman Empire.

But of course, you want it to apply to sometime in the future.  OK, following the futurist theological clockwork,
 the gospel gets preached in all the world for a witness unto the nations, and then the end shall come.   Well,
the gospel has already been preached in every known part of the world, and this has been true since centuries ago.  Please tell me of one nation on the planet that has yet to hear the gospel.    if I were to accept that scenario that the Olivet Discourse didn't completely pertain to the time of the Apostles...ie..that "generation", but was of a later time when the gospel would be preached to every nation of the face of the earth, then the end should've come centuries ago.   

 

Quote

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Matthew 24: 1-2  

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Mark 13: 1-2  

 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Luke 21: 5-6  


 Jesus is not talking about some physical temple.

Of course he is.  You have an amazing perspacity for spiritualizing literal statements. 
Quote
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.1 Peter 2:5

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble.1 Corinthians 3:5

That is true that Jesus would spiritually build another temple, and some of the most lucid scripures of this are in the book of Isaiah.  In particular, the last two chapters of Isaiah are particularly insightful.

  It is called the "New Heavens and New Earth", which signifies the New Covenant.  The passing of the old heavens and earth is representative of the passing of the Old Covenant.   You futurists
say we have yet to see the "new heavens and new earth", but these things are already here! 

Quote

The temple that is not going to have one stone upon another,is the corporate church,the congregation,the external representation of the kingdom.

You have attempted to spiritualize everything, but this is where you are contradicting your own contradictions.  According to the NT scriptures you have quoted, the New Jerusalem consists of true believers, and that is rightly so.  But what logic is it to say that this Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem, the body of Christ, is the one spoken of in Matthew 24 as being left desolate?    Well, that can never be, because if the true church - The New Jerusalem -  consists of true believers, then that New Jerusalem will never be left desolate!  Sure, some may turn away from the faith, but they are not part of that New Jerusalem.  Read the 21st chapter of Revelation, where Christ said that the wicked and those who cause abomination have no part of the New Jerusalem.   The wicked will be left outside the gates, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

The Jerusalem spoken of as being left desolate in the Olivet Discourse is the physical city of Jerusalem.  To say that it refers to the New Jerusalem, true Christian believers, is blasphemy. 

 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: andreas on October 14, 2005, 03:22:37 AM
 <<<But what logic is it to say that this Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem, the body of Christ, is the one spoken of in Matthew 24 as being left desolate?>>>

There are two Jerusalems.The Jerusalem in view is the churches and congregations.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:25-26

andreas.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Peng Bao on October 14, 2005, 07:31:32 AM

  The Apostles and followers of Christ were persecuted and killed.

Where is your biblical response? You are so non responsive. God's people have been persecuted from the time that Cain slew Able. But there has never been persecution like the type Christ spoke of saying it would be the worst ever. The crusades or the feeding to the lions don't qualify for that type persecution. You want to believe whatever you choose, regardless of the context of the passages. And that is typical Preterist heresy.

Quote
 Well, the gospel has already been preached in every known part of the world, and this has been true since centuries ago.  Please tell me of one nation on the planet that has yet to hear the gospel. 


Again you are totally ignoring the context in order to fit your scheme into the Preterist heresy.

 Matthew 24:21-25
 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 Behold, I have told you before."

Clearly the context is not AD 70, nor did Christ return in AD 70. You are preaching a false gospel and it's sad that you have a platform to do so.


 
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Halle on March 04, 2009, 08:52:34 AM
This is an interesting thread and a great article by Tony Warren. I did a brief search and I wonder if it relates in any way to this passage also.

 Psalm 14:4-5 "Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous".

 I doubt very seriously if God was referring to 40 years of righteous people. It also seems to indicate his family or children, not generation in the secular sense.


Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Frank Mortimer on May 01, 2014, 08:54:03 AM
H/W are the meanings of "generation" in various passages as per my On-Line-Bible

I would get did of that online Bible, because it's steering you in the wrong direction. The word generation nearly always means a family relationship of some kind, or a family period. See Tony's article in this thread. Generation cannot mean all things to all people. There has to be some consistency.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Melanie on May 01, 2014, 11:12:57 AM
Amen Frank. That is mostly a Preterist position. Though some who are not Preterist do hold to the same type AD 70 viewpoint of partial fulfillment of Matthew 24. Though I can't see how.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Curtis on May 02, 2014, 01:48:40 AM
That was a good article with a great explanation of a very tough question.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on May 21, 2017, 03:52:33 PM
Well now I see why your timing is all off on the covenants, and on 70 AD. Do the match? OK, if you insist!

14 Generations X3 = 42 and 42 X 40 years each = 1680 years from Christ to Abraham

That's absurd! It's been at least 2000 years by everyone's account, and probably a lot more.


I must say, I have learned so much from these threads. From my math, a generation cannot possibly be 40 years, at least not from reading the biblical record. Too many inconsistencies all throughout the Bible. So this is totally incorrect math and totally incorrect intrpretation of this.

Quote
Quote
So what do you believe scripture teaches concerning the length of a generation? Nothing?

The scriptures teach that the length of a generation can be any number of years. You'd know that if you only read the bible and let it interpret itself instead of trying to push Preterism. The children of Israel were prophecied to be in Egypt 4 generations. And they were. Are you telling us they were there 160 years when God plainly said they were there 430 years? You see the people here can count. Does that sound like 40 years a generation to you?

I see a lot of unsound interpretation in his understanding, because it is not even close from the biblical narrative that a generation cannot possibly be 40 years. And if not, then his whole conclusion based upon that math fails.  I have never really understood why people who are clearly proven wrong, cling to their beliefs anyway? How is that possible?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on May 21, 2017, 03:54:51 PM
The word generation is used in many different ways, and people don't like to accept that if they have an agenda. I would suggest reading this article on the word generation.

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things be Fulfilled. (http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/generation.shtml)
-by Tony Warren

 http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/this_generation_shall_not_pass_until_all_be_fulfilled.shtml


 Wow! This should be required reading in every church.  &TY
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Bunyan on May 21, 2017, 06:22:03 PM
Yeah, that's an oldie but goodie. :)
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on May 22, 2017, 08:08:54 AM

Well, it's an oldie at least.  :(  He denies that this spoke of 70 ad which is not good and not acceptable.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Melanie on May 26, 2017, 08:02:02 AM

Well, it's an oldie at least.  :(  He denies that this spoke of 70 ad which is not good and not acceptable.

It is the scripture itself that denies it happened in ad 70 because if you're going to take it literally as you claim you are, then ad 70 doesn't qualify. All the literal stones of the city and Temple were not thrown down where not one was left standing one upon another. If you're not going to take it literally, then at the very least stop saying you're taking it literally. You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on May 30, 2017, 08:00:14 AM

Well, it's an oldie at least.  :(  He denies that this spoke of 70 ad which is not good and not acceptable.

Its acceptable to me, since he has demonstrated with scripture that Jerusalem fell around 33 ad when Christ died, not 70 ad. How do you reconcile your beliefs with this verse?

 Matthew 24:9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Was the city of Jerusalem hated by all nations because of Christ in 70 ad? How do you explain that when Jerusalem was full of unbelieving Israel, and the Romans didn't hate them because of Christ's name? You're not being realistic or consistent. You have to think that through. Titus didn't ruin the city because of Christ's name so Tony is correct to deny that. We all should because it isn't consistent and doesn't agree with the facts.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Stan Pat on June 01, 2017, 08:03:06 PM
The word generation is used in many different ways, and people don't like to accept that if they have an agenda. I would suggest reading this article on the word generation.

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things be Fulfilled. (http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/generation.shtml)
-by Tony Warren

 http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/this_generation_shall_not_pass_until_all_be_fulfilled.shtml


 Wow! This should be required reading in every church.  &TY


You can tell it's a great article because it's also residing on so many other different websites and blogs, and is quoted in other articles. It makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on June 04, 2017, 06:18:24 PM
It is the scripture itself that denies it happened in ad 70 because if you're going to take it literally as you claim you are, then ad 70 doesn't qualify. All the literal stones of the city and Temple were not thrown down where not one was left standing one upon another. If you're not going to take it literally, then at the very least stop saying you're taking it literally. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not. Ever heard of a hyperbole? It wasn't meant to be literal. So every stone didn't need to fall, it was the intent that mattered. Jerusalem was totally destroyed.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Frank Mortimer on June 06, 2017, 09:17:38 PM
Here's a quote you made George.

"We're consistent literalists. The difference between us and you is, when we say we take things literally, we mean literally."

So I guess you mean whenever you decide you want to take it literally. How can you whine and moan about Amillennialists spiritualizing the city when you turn right around and spiritualize Christ saying not one stone would be left one upon another in the city? On top of that inconsistency, you take the stones as literal, but the stones all being thrown down as not literal. And you call yourself a consistent literalist?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on June 15, 2017, 09:41:00 AM
>>>
stop saying you're taking it literally. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not. Ever heard of a hyperbole? It wasn't meant to be literal. So every stone didn't need to fall, it was the intent that mattered.
<<<

It wasn't meant to be taken literally? ...that's what we've been saying, and what you have been denying all these years. Now, when it obviously cannot be taken literally, suddenly you agree? :thinker:

Moreover, Hyperbole is defined as language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. So you are saying Christ made an extreme exaggeration when saying specifically that "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." so that wasn't to be taken literally "by a consistent literalist?" Not one stone upon another that is not thrown down "literally" means to you many stones would be left standing one upon another? That doesn't make much sense from a "consistent literalist" standpoint. Particularly when you claim that the prophecy of this city's destruction has to be taken literally, and that it is tortuous not to take it literally.  :Say_what:

Melanie is correct, you are attempting to have it both ways. Literal when it suits your purpose, and not literal when you get into trouble attempting to take the "literal" text describing the destruction of the city, fit. There's a word for that.

Here's your quote:
    So every stone didn't need to fall.
Here's Christ's Quote:
   Luke 19:44
   
In all seriousness, it seems that you are contradicting God's word if you insist on this being a prophesy of a consistent literal fulfillment. ...your words, not mine.

But the truth is, in that verse Christ is not talking to or about a literal city, but a literal people and their children. Cities don't give birth to children. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformed Baptist on June 15, 2017, 03:27:26 PM
It wasn't meant to be taken literally? ...that's what we've been saying, and what you have been denying all these years. Now, when it obviously cannot be taken literally, suddenly you agree? :thinker:

Moreover, Hyperbole is defined as language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. So you are saying Christ made an extreme exaggeration when saying specifically that "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." so that wasn't to be taken literally "by a consistent literalist?" Not one stone upon another that is not thrown down "literally" means to you many stones would be left standing one upon another? That doesn't make much sense from a "consistent literalist" standpoint. Particularly when you claim that the prophecy of this city's destruction has to be taken literally, and that it is tortuous not to take it literally.  :Say_what:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 :Goodpoint: In other words, it's literal until he says it's not literal. And it's not literal only when he's trapped and "forced" to admit it's not literal. That would be considered, private interpretation, or to interpret as we personally want to believe. As you've demonstrated, the only consistent interpretation is God's speaking of both the Holy Temple and the Holy City as spiritually His people that were left in ruins.




Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on June 16, 2017, 09:21:21 AM
:Goodpoint: In other words, it's literal until he says it's not literal. And it's not literal only when he's trapped and "forced" to admit it's not literal. That would be considered, private interpretation, or to interpret as we personally want to believe. As you've demonstrated, the only consistent interpretation is God's speaking of both the Holy Temple and the Holy City as spiritually His people that were left in ruins.

So why is this view not more widely accepted? And why is Premillennial theology so widely accepted?

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Kevin Wright on June 20, 2017, 02:41:35 AM
Premillennial theology came into popularity through the many false prophets teaching a literal understanding of nearly everything, plus national televangelists like Hal Lindsey, Jim Baker, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Kenneth E. Hagin, Joyce Meyer and the rest of the crazies that polluted the gospel of truth. That is why it is so widely accepted, and this biblical view not. Mass hysteria about Israel, prayer cloths and the antichrist.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dan on June 21, 2017, 01:49:29 AM
Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.

The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible.


Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Trevor on June 21, 2017, 04:31:17 AM
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.

Strong's doesn't know that a generation means 40 years. Strong's says the word "generation" there in Greek is γενεα (genea), which can also refer to a family, stock, nation. (Strongs, definition 2b) . It's easy to deny something when you don't actually study the Bible carefully like Tony does.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: James Heckman on June 21, 2017, 04:33:51 AM
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.

Strong's doesn't know that a generation means 40 years. Strong's says the word "generation" there in Greek is γενεα (genea), which can also refer to a family, stock, nation. (Strongs, definition 2b) . It's easy to deny something when you don't actually study the Bible carefully like Tony does. A generation can mean a lot of things.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Dan on June 21, 2017, 02:17:17 PM
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible. That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord. They study the scriptures and they teach us from years of experience and learning.

Ephesians 4:11
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

He gave some to be teachers, and others to be learners.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on June 22, 2017, 01:03:07 AM
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible.

Dan, it's obvious that you think that way, unfortunate but obvious. We do have to study the Bible, that's how we know we are not deceived.


Quote
That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord.

The Scribes and Pharisees went to schools of higher learning also and look what it got them. Those who think like you are destined to end up the same way. As followers of the blind, led by the blind.

Lu 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?


Quote
They study the scriptures and they teach us from years of experience and learning.

And you've learned what from Dr. Walvoord? That there are 50 reasons for a Pretribulation rapture? 230 ways his prophesies concerning Russia and the Arab states was correct? How to make the kingdom Premillennial and earthly, and how Dispnsationalism is related to Progressive Revelation? No thanks. Study the scriptures yourselves people, and God will teach you through experience and learning.

1Jo 2:26
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Quote
He gave some to be teachers, and others to be learners.

We're all learners. What we learn, and from what camp we learn it is the real point.

Ro 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

What was written, the scriptures, were written for our learning, not for us to ignore it and blindly follow the ministers who can't tell Israel from Israel, Jew from Jew, Temple from Temple and Kingdom from Kingdom. Dispensationalism has nothing to teach any God fearing Christian.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Soldier on June 23, 2017, 09:10:25 AM
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible. That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord.

Journey away from Premnillennialism and John Walvoord
by Sam Storms

Although I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was regularly exposed to Scripture, I can't recall ever hearing anything about a “millennial” kingdom, much less the variety of theories regarding its meaning and relationship to the second coming of Christ. Like many of my generation, my initial exposure to biblical eschatology was in reading Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth during the summer of 1970.

Not long thereafter I purchased a Scofield Reference Bible and began to devour its notes and underline them more passionately than I did the biblical text on which they commented. No one, as I recall, ever suggested to me there was a view other than that of the dispensational, pretribulational, premillennialism of Scofield. Anyone who dared call it into question was suspected of not believing in biblical inerrancy.

Questioning Premillennialism

Upon graduating from The University of Oklahoma in 1973, I began my studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. My professors were a Who's Who of dispensational premillennialism: John Walvoord (then president of DTS), Charles Ryrie (author of Dispensationalism Today and The Ryrie Study Bible), and J. Dwight Pentecost (author of perhaps the most influential text on the subject at that time, Things to Come), just to mention the more well-known. Anything other than the dispensational premillennial perspective as found in Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and taught in the many DTS classrooms was considered less than evangelical. The only thing I recall hearing about amillennialism, for example, was how dangerous it was given the fact that it was popular among theological liberals who didn't take the Bible very seriously.

Robert Gundry's book The Church and the Tribulation was released in 1973, the same year I began my studies at Dallas, and it fell like a theological atom bomb on the campus. Everyone was reading it, and more than a few were being drawn to its post-tribulational perspective on the timing of the rapture. Debates in the classroom, cafeteria, and elsewhere were abundant and quite heated. Someone obtained a copy of Daniel Fuller's PhD dissertation in which he critiqued the hermeneutics of dispensationalism, and more gasoline was thrown on the fire.

Upon my graduation from Dallas Seminary in 1977 I immediately immersed myself in a study of all aspects and schools of eschatological thought. Over the next few years, the two most influential and persuasive volumes I read were The Presence of the Future: The Eschatology of Biblical Realism by George Eldon Ladd (himself a historic premillennialist), and Anthony Hoekema's book The Bible and the Future (Hoekema was an amillennialist). It is worth noting here that the distinction between Israel and the church, on which dispensationalism is largely based, could not withstand either Ladd or Hoekema's relentless assault.

My Unpardonable Sin

It wasn't long before Ladd, Hoekema, and Gundry, together with a few others, had persuaded me that there is no basis in Scripture for a pre-tribulational rapture of the church. That was, in the eyes of many, bad enough. Indeed, I distinctly recall the horror (trust me, “horror” is by no means an exaggerated term to describe the reaction I received) in my church when I made it known that I could no longer embrace a pre-tribulation rapture. More than a few were convinced that I was well on my way into theological liberalism! But when in the early 1980s I abandoned premillennialism in all its forms, public reaction was such that you would have sworn I had committed the unpardonable sin. I'm not suggesting that all or even the majority of dispensational premillennialists feel this way today (I hope and pray that few do), but the atmosphere in the 1970s and 1980s was something less than amicable for those who departed from the accepted eschatological faith.

My departure from premillennialism and embrace of amillennialism was gradual and came as a result of two discoveries as I studied Scripture. First, I devoted myself to a thorough examination of what the New Testament said would occur at the time of Christ's second coming (or parousia). What I found was a consistent witness concerning what would either end or begin as a result of our Lord's return to the earth. Sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, and the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth would ensue. But why is this a problem for premillennialism? Good question.

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what's wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What's wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies. In other words, in my study of the second coming of Christ I discovered that, contrary to what premillennialism requires us to believe, death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the parousia, the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the parousia, the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the parousia, all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the parousia, and both the final resurrection and eternal judgment of unbelievers will occur at the time of the parousia. Simply put, the NT portrayals of the second coming of Christ forced me to conclude that a millennial age, subsequent to Christ's return, of the sort proposed by premillennialism was impossible.

The second factor that turned me from premillennialism to amillennialism was a study of Revelation 20, the text cited by all premillennialists in support of their theory. Contrary to what I had been taught and long believed, I came to see Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective.

My eschatological journey and biblical defense of amillennialism may now be examined in greater detail in my book, Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative (Mentor, 2013).
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Terrell Meyer on June 23, 2017, 06:49:27 PM
 :o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist.  That just goes to show God will call his sheep out from the wolves anywhere. See, you learn something new every day.

John Walvoord may be academically well known, but anyone who s read his books can see his methodology is  amateurish at best. Why Premillennialists swear by him is beyond belief, considering the wild premises in his books.

It's obvious from the use of the term "generation of vipers" that Christ is not referring to just those people at that time, unless you thing he was saying this 40 years of vipers, as if there are no vipers after 40 years. To me, that doesn't make sense. Family of vipers makes sense and as other already said, fits perfectly with them being children of the devil. Christ was calling them the devil's family.

Psalms 58:3-4 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear."

This is the generation of vipers, a generation that will not pass until all be fulfilled.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: David Knoles on June 23, 2017, 08:52:14 PM
Well then how do you explain Christ saying to that generation, his contemporaries, that he was a sign. Obviously generation meant those people who were there in Jerusalem and would be there for the next 40 years. What does a generation mean there?

"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."
Luke 11:30

A generation is 40 years.


Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: NoMass on June 24, 2017, 04:07:18 AM
If genea means contemporaries, then both the signs preceding Christ's coming and the parousia itself (at least partially) must occur within the span of a single generation – variously understood to mean between 20 and 80 years, with the majority of opinion favoring 30-40 years. Scholars who define genea in this way, arrive at one of the following interpretations of Matthew 24.34:

1. Christ was mistaken – he thought the parousia (coming) would occur in the first century, but it did not. (This view represents liberal theologians and skeptics. It is acknowledged, though not subscribed to, by France.)

2. Christ was referring to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70.

3. Christ was indicating the generation that would be alive when the signs reached the stage of final fulfillment.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Wanda on June 26, 2017, 07:47:43 AM
:o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist.  That just goes to show God will call his sheep out from the wolves anywhere. See, you learn something new every day.

Reformer, Ernest Reisinger, a lot of very good Christians once were. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists are coddled in most Christian circles, it's refreshing that TW and some others don't play that game of "we're all good Christians with a simple difference of opinion" game.

Quote

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
by John H. Gerstner; 1991, 275 pp., Wolgemuth & Hyatt.
Reviewed by Ernest Reisinger

The long awaited, long-expected, and much-needed work on Dispensationalism has arrived.

I am most happy to write this little review, one reason being that I was held in the jaws of this warped system of theology for the first ten years of my Christian life. During that period I wore out three Scofield Bibles and was working on my fourth! For years I taught it with charts and maps.

Dr. J. I. Packer commends Gerstner's work in the following way: "In this book a clear-headed classical Calvinist challenges contemporary Dispensational Theology. Pussyfooting is not Dr. Gerstner's style; he values controversy as a way of clearing the air, and conducts it with bracing vigor. With skill and thorough knowledge he maps the geography of the gulf that lies between the two positions, and invites the reader to agree that Dispensationalism is seriously astray. All readers will be grateful to the author for clarifying the issues more precisely than any previous book has done. He sets out to show that Calvinism and Dispensationalism are radically opposed, and he proves his point."

Dr. Gerstner points out how Dispensationalism infiltrated the United Presbyterian Church of the North. Indeed this seems incredible because the Dispensational warped system of theology is diametrically opposed to covenant theology. He clearly points out the grave dangers of this system that has so many fine Christians and teachers deceived.

The Southern Presbyterian Church was not affected as much. Men like Robert Dabney wrote against this theology (See Dabney's Discussions, Vol. 1, p. 214, Banner of Truth Trust).

One of the many facets that Dr. Gerstner clears up is the claim of many, if not all, Dispensational teachers who tell us that they are four-point Calvinists. This book will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are not Calvinistic at all -- not even on one point -- rather they are Arminian to the core on every point.

The author addresses the contemporary Lordship controversy. He gives the historical context of the controversy and clarifies the terms of the debate. He crumbles the Dispensational house on this point. I think it is fair to say that, by reading the whole book, one must conclude that "non-Lordship salvation" is only a child of two dangerous parents -- the father is Arminianism and the mother is Dispensational Antinomianism.

When the open-minded reader finishes this book he will agree with Charles Ryrie's statement in his Balancing the Christian Life: "The importance of this question cannot be overestimated in relation to both salvation and sanctification. The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is false and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel" (Gal. 1:6-9). It is another gospel. The question is, Which one is the biblical gospel? Which one is the apostolic gospel?

Many Calvinists will not agree with Dr. Gerstner on every point of his view of the atonement where he disagrees with some of the great men of the Westminster Theological Seminary.

I wish he would have given more pages to the doctrine of assurance and to the Dispensational perversions of it. I feel the same way in regard to the moral Law and Dispensationalism. What is said is very helpful but since these are two areas where Dispensationalism is in complete opposition to all the respected creeds and confessions, they could have warranted a bit more emphasis. This book is an absolute must for all serious Bible teachers and preachers.

This book may be secured from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, P.O. Box 613, Carlisle, PA 17013.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Robert Powell on June 27, 2017, 04:26:02 AM
A generation is 40 years.


David, when God says he is in the generation of the righteous, what is he saying?

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Robert Powell on June 27, 2017, 04:30:25 AM
A generation is 40 years.


David,
Were the children of Israel serving their taskmasters in Egypt 160 years (4 of your generations) or 400 like the Lord prophesied? Why don't you ever answer a question? Is it because you can't answer all the contradictions that you make to scripture?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on June 27, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
David,
Why don't you ever answer a question? Is it because you can't answer all the contradictions that you make to scripture?

Of course. No Dispensationalist, or Premillennialist for that matter, can effectively answer biblical questions addressing the germane questions we post because to do so contradicts the passages we post. That includes the vaunted Dr. John F. Walvoord (as evidenced in his debate against a Amillennialist theologian). Unless they want to indulge in a colossal twisting of the verses and claim that it means something it doesn't say. Which is often what they do anyway.

David knows that his 40 years (160 as you said) theory doesn't match the generations the Lord says Israel were in Egypt, but understanding this as the 4 families does. Here's a quote from Tony Warren's article on the chronology of the Patriarchs.

Quote
They were promised to be in bondage 400 years, but in the fourth generation come out to take the land of the Amorites because of their sins. And as we saw in the record of the four generations in Egypt, according to God, that's exactly how many generations were in Egypt.
       The Generation of Levi
       The Generation of Kohath
       The Generation of Amram
       The Generation of Aaron
 

And they came out in the 4th generation (Aaron). 400 years in bondage in Egypt, 430 total years, 30 of which were spent not in bondage.  As quoted from the chronology of scripture:
       The Family of Levi
       The Family of Kohath
       The Family of Amram
       The Family of Aaron
They came out in the family of Aaron proving that God does not define a generation as 40 years. Yes, a generation can be 40 years, it can also be 100 years or 80 years, depending upon the Patriarch or family reference.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on June 27, 2017, 12:37:01 PM
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.


Generation is toldah {to-led-aw'}; from 3205; descent, i.e. family or figuratively ancestry or ancestral history; birth or genesis of something. Yes, even in the Old Tesament.

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Those Christians here who claim that a generation doesn't mean family, are actually very sloppy in their scholarship, which is typical of Premillennial theologians and their followers.

Looking at the context and declaration of Matthew saying "This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled," the family of evil is the only way it really can be understood in the light of everything Christ said there. It's the generation of evil. The second coming of Christ is the only time on this earth when this generation shall pass. And it's the only time that the blood of all the righteous slain from Adam to anyone else will be fall upon this wicked generation, as they are judged. taking this generation as 40 years makes no sense whatsoever.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on June 27, 2017, 05:12:26 PM
You guys are taking me to school. I learn so much lurking here.  &TY
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on June 28, 2017, 02:11:49 AM
:o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist. 

You never heard of the falling away?  :)

The fact is, 70 ad is an accepted interpretation of the prophecy, even among many, many Calvinist authors who agree the Jerusalem falling was fulfilled then when every stone was thrown down.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: David Knoles on June 30, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Well, I can tell you that I'm not the least bit convinced by Tony's article. A generation means a generation, so those things did take place in A.D. 70. Just because Tony doesn't see that doesn't mean that it's not true. The signs which the Lord mentioned are found in Matthew 24:4-14 took place within that period. We will not take the time to discuss all these, but it is sufficient to say that every one of them was fulfilled within the forty-year span between the time of the Lord’s discourse and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on July 01, 2017, 09:17:10 AM
Well, I can tell you that I'm not the least bit convinced by Tony's article. A generation means a generation,

A generation meaning a generation is not the question, the question is, does "genea" always mean a generation or can it be used as a family, from its root genos?

Php 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Obviously it can and is used this way. Since we all stand in the midst of this crooked and perverse genea as children of God in the midst of the children of the Devil. Two families, only one crooked and perverse.


Quote
so those things did take place in A.D. 70.

You can keep repeating what is untrue, but that doesn't make it become true to honest people. There were more than one stone left standing one upon another in the city of Jerusalem after A.D. 70, proving beyond any "reasonable" doubt that this was not the stones Christ was talking about.


Quote
Just because Tony doesn't see that doesn't mean that it's not true.

It's not about what Tony sees, it's about what the Bible says must occur. You can't see something that doesn't exist, and since one stone was left standing one upon another, then a fulfillment clearly didn't take place in A.D. 70. Christ was not mistaken. And if you see no stones left standing in the city of Jerusalem from that time or even of the temple foundation wall, then you are dreaming and should wake up. Because to this day, those stones stand one upon another in Jerusalem. Just because you (and others) irrationally imagine that no stones are left standing, doesn't make it true. You can go to Jerusalem, see stones left standing one upon another, and then "pretend" they don't exist, but that's called "being delusional." So call it what it is.


Quote
We will not take the time to discuss all these,

Of course not. Because then you've have to explain how you deny a present reality by means of a delusional fable passed down by a generation of those who don't understand authority of scripture. When scripture says not one stone, it means it. So then, the Temple and City that Christ referenced has not one stone left standing, it is completely gone, laid even with the ground, it's no more. And a rebuilding has taken place, with Christ the chief corner stone that others rejected. Tony's correct because he follows scripture, you follow Josephus and a long list of lemmings unschooled in prophecy.


Quote
Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.

I have a better recommendation. Go to the source, the Bible. Compare Scripture with Scripture, fable with reality, stone with stone, not one, with not one, and prophesy with prophesy. See if all the stones weren't thrown down, and Christ being the chief corner stone, and the rebuilding of a new temple and city introducing a new dispensation of Israel.

Ps 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

 Mt 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And why can't you recognize this truth of the stones, the Temple and the rebuilding? That is the question.

 1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Time to man up and accept the truth over Reformed, Evangelical and Premillennial traditions.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Erik Diamond on July 01, 2017, 06:56:23 PM
 :amen:  Reformer!
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tim Norton on July 01, 2017, 11:39:37 PM
Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.

I have a better recommendation. Go to the source, the Bible.

Isn't it interesting how Christians continue to quote the thoughts of authors as if their ideas overrule what the bible actually says? Because someone said it's an exaggeration, we don't have to understand it as not one stone on top of another? Wow, this is acceptable? How is that sound theology?  This runs the gamut whether they are Reformed Christians, liberal Christians or evangelicals. Their retort seems always to be about what someone else wrote instead of "this is what I read in the Bible."

I'm not saying you can't reference book authors, but come on!  Their words cannot make God's word null and void. If Christ said not one stone, then that's what he meant. The only question is, what stones are n view, since obviously God references spiritual stones of a spiritual Temple. The question should be, which stones perfectly fit scripture and which stones don't.

Just ask yourself, when the foundation stone was rejected, what happened to all the other stones, and why does scripture talk about a rebuilding at Pentecost? Just use your head, that's all we ask.

Amos 9:11-12
"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this".

Acts 5:16-017
 "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things".

Did you see any tabernacle and city rebuilt and Gentiles welcomed with Christ's death and resurrection? I did. Not a literal city or sanctuary or Gentiles literally coming to Jerusalem, but a restoration that has nothing to do with national Israel's physical stone's in the middle east.

And the generation that destroyed the city and sanctuary? The same generation that killed Abel, the prophets and Christ, and that certainly wasn't a contemporary 40 year period after Christ died.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformed Baptist on July 02, 2017, 10:08:15 AM
 :iagree: with you guys. It just doesn't fit unless you force it, and that's not how prophesy works. When it belongs, it fits. When it doesn't, it's contradictory.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on July 02, 2017, 07:53:19 PM
It doesn't need to fit, it's a hyperbole. It just needs to be explained so you can understand it, and Dr. John Walvoord does an excellent job of that. What you don't understand is that all the stones didn't need to be thrown down, it's enough that the city was in ruins and the historical record shows it was destroyed. The problem with you liberal, amillennialist, reformers is that you reject God's people Israel and their restoration. Here's what John said about that.
Quote
Unfortunately, the study of the future of Israel has been obscured by controversy in other areas of Biblical theology. Liberal or neo-orthodox theologians, who do not accept the infallibility of the Scriptures, tend to ignore what the Bible teaches about Israel. Among conservatives there is a radical division concerning the meaning of Biblical revelation in relation to Israel. Some contemporary amillenarians deny any future to Israel as such and consider the promises to Israel as being fulfilled in the church in the present age. Others believe that there will be a spiritual restoration of Israel, but tend to disregard the geographic and political aspects of Israel's promises (John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962) p. 9.).
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Erik Diamond on July 02, 2017, 08:42:29 PM
It looks like the premillennialists are using "hyperbole" as an excuse to defend their faulty doctrine.  They are so blind. Sad.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Kenneth White on July 03, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
Excuse is a good word for it Erik. They're really saying, it doesn't really matter what God said, he was just kidding or embellishing the story.

No, I do't think so. You would think that when Christians find that their beliefs don't really match what was said in scripture, they would change their beliefs. But instead they try and change what was said in scripture to fit their beliefs. That is the most disturbing part of all this.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on July 04, 2017, 01:40:10 AM
>>>
Well then how do you explain Christ saying to his that generation, his contemporaries, he was a sign.
<<<

I explain it by a sound, consistent, harmonious, logical reading of the text, in context, and in full agreement with all that He said. That He was a sign to that family or generation of vipers. A sign that He s the prophesied Messiah and that the Kingdom had come. Let me ask you a question. How do you explain Christ saying in one verse to one contemporary generation that there will be no sign given, and in the very next verse say He was a sign to a generation? Contradiction? Not at all.

Luke 11:29-30

No sign given but ([ei me], if not or saving) the sign of His death and resurrection. So a sign was given, but that generation that were blinded could not see it, while the disciples and election would see the sign that was given. One holy generation receiving the Word of the Spirit who gives it, and the other generation rejecting it by the spirit of disobedience. Christ says of the sign, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. ...to what Generation? The Generation that seeks signs when no sign shall be given? No, the generation who have eyes to see the sign of Jonas as a type of Christ unto the Ninevites. The death and resurrection of Christ is indeed a sign to His holy generation (1st Peter 2:9), His family, the chosen children of His Father. An evil and adulterous "family" seeks after signs to support their religion, and they aren't given signs. Yet Christ says there is indeed a sign given, which is His resurrection (as the Holy Temple) after its destruction. Contradiction? No, not at all--because the evil family or generation are the children of the Devil and they don't see the sign because God has not given them eyes to see. And yet another contemporary and everlasting generation or family does see the sign, as they are the children of God. Again, a portrait of two families or [genea], but only one generation that recognizes the sign of the resurrection of the Temple in Christ. The destruction and rebuilding is not found in Jewish fables of rebuilding of physical structures in the middle east, and placement of worldly or political kings, but spiritual cities, Kingdoms and Rulers.


Quote
>>>
Obviously generation meant those people who were there in Jerusalem and would be there for the next 40 years.
<<<

What seems obvious to one is not always apparent to others, and quite often easily refutable--like the idea of a pretribulation rapture, a reestablished kingdom of middle eastern Israel or the nation of middle eastern Jews bearing fruit again.  It may seem obvious in theory, but Scripture is a lot more complicated in practice, especially when one is determined to read into it rather than from it.  For example, it seemed "quite obvious" to the Jews that Christ spoke to and said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," that He was referring to the literal Temple. After all, He had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of it and they were asking Him for a sign that he had the "authority" to do this. It's in that context that He said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Which is why they "responded" saying that this Temple took forty six years to build, and how would Christ build it again in just 3 days? Clearly, the seemingly obvious to them that Christ was speaking about that very literal/physical Temple, was not what Christ was actually speaking about at all. so look beyond what "seems" obvious, or what "appears" right in your own eyes, to what Christ is actually saying. Look to what is actually being addressed, what is correct, consistent, sound, Spiritual and in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

Psalms 12:7

What single group or contemporary people to what time or generation of man are we preserved from forever? None! Only the generation of the wicked, and "NOT" a one-off contemporary evil group of people at one time. The generation of the wicked will exist right up until the end, when all things will have been fulfilled. We (the election, or family of faithful Christians) are all preserved from this evil generation forever. It is clear that the word generation did not mean all of those people were a 40 year span generation of evil, nor did Christ use the word that way. Likewise, the people over 2000 years ago in Israel were not all a generation that would not be given a sign, nor were all a generation that the blood of able and the prophets that followed would be required of. Only the generation or family of evil would be given no sign. They are the only generation Christ that Christ prophesied could not escape the damnation of Hell. It didn't mean a group living in a 40 year span, it meant that family who are children of the Devil.


Quote
>>>
What does a generation mean there?
<<<

It means a family, a kindred, a seed, a stock, a group of people with a common ancestor or father. Genea from [genos] or family, a group common descent.

Phillipians 3:5

It's a family relationship, a stock or kindred or generation of evil versus a generation of Holiness.

1st Peter 2:9

Is God's children of the 40 years Peter was addressing the only chosen generation, or Is Peter declaring a chosen family that reaches to the election today? That is the question, and the answer is obvious. ..at least to those handling Scripture honestly. The elect are a chosen family, a holy family, a special family, a peculiar family, called out from the wicked and adulterous family, the generation of vipers. One family shall no sign be given, the other family sees it as the sign of Jonah, Christ's resurrection from the dead.


Quote
>>>
"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."
Luke 11:30

A generation is 40 years.
<<<

Let's test that theory. Let's change the word generation to 40 years. ...so shall also the Son of man be to this 40 years. No, doesn't make sense. Now try family. ...so shall also the Son of man be to this family. What family? The family that sees Jonas as a sign, not the family that no sign will be given because it is an evil and adulterous family. The only sign that's given is the sign that they cannot see because they don't accept authority of Scripture. This is the magnificent salvation program of Christ. Selah. Consider when Christ contrasted the family of God with the family of the devil He said that they were wiser than were in a certain way.

Luke 16:8

Does that make sense if we say the children of this world in their 40 years are wiser? Or is it clear God is referring to them as a carnal worldly family? Generation there means their clan or family relationship as children of the Devil rather than children of light. Again, God illustrating two distinct types of children--two families [genea], translated as generations.


Quote
>>>
A generation is 40 years.
<<<

A generation is not forty years. Though I've heard Pastors say it's 40, 70, 80, 100 and on down the line, depending upon what verse they wanted to attempt to fit their teachings. All by carelessly handling scriptures using those numbers as a bridge. In reality, anyone who can add can readily see that a generation does not "mean" 40 years. e.g.:

Matthew 1:17

It doesn't add up, and if it doesn't add up precisely, it is clearly not true. Q.E.D., a generation is clearly not 40 years. Any careful study of Scripture will confirm this. Again:

Genesis 15:12-16

If you can count  generation as forty years (4 times 40) and still come up with 400 years, you are a magician. Clearly, a generation is decidedly "NOT" 40 years. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error in any sound exegesis.
 
Matthew 1:1

The word generation there means family, as in a family history or register, not 40 years for each. It obviously cannot be 40 years for each Patriarch mentioned.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on July 04, 2017, 02:08:28 AM
>>>
Because someone said it's an exaggeration, we don't have to understand it as not one stone on top of another? Wow, this is acceptable?
<<<

No, it is absolutely not acceptable. And yet, it is to so many professing Christians of our day, and not just Premillennarians or Dispensationalists. Not to mention the fact that they select to concentrate on the Temple prophesy and usually completely ignore the same prophesy of the whole city of Jerusalem not one stone should be left standing. Of course that's because they cannot even begin to claim not one stone was left standing one upon another in the city of Jerusalem, as even the staunchest advocates of this theory won't deny that. The fact is, if stones were left standing one upon another in the city of Jerusalem, then the prophesy fails. If many, many, many stones were left standing one upon another, then their theory fails miserably!!! Either Christ made a mistake or (as you say) the prophecy was never meant to be of physical stones or the very literal city of Jerusalem. One or the other, but not both.

Lamentations 4:1-2

Literal stones? Most certainly not. But God uses the stones of the sanctuary as representatives of the people of His congregation. Nothing has changed under the sun, we are still to interpret Scripture by Scripture, but many ave lost their way and choose Josephus as the final arbiter of truth rather than God's Word.


Quote
>>>
why does scripture talk about a rebuilding at Pentecost? Just use your head, that's all we ask.
<<<

Scripture talks about a rebuilding at Pentecost because that is when the church was instituted, commissioned and the Spirit poured out to assure its construction. The question people should ask is, a rebuilding of what? It is self evident that you can't rebuild what has not already been thrown down. It's not rocket science. Wjhat was being rebuilt is a City and a Temple, but not with physical stones, because those thrown down were not physical stones, and Christ the foundation stone of it was not a literal/Physical/earthly foundation  or Corner stone. It's simply a matter of seeing clearly or being unable to see things clearly.

Mark 8:23-25

Revelation 7:3

We will see men as trees walking until we have it revealed that the trees are "actually" men walking, who have not been sealed (secured) of God. Through the Revelation of Christ, when we look up we will we see every tree clearly as a man, with only those sealed having true safety from the plagues of God. We can then say, where I once was blind seeing only trees, now I see the true reality and interpretation of the vision. It's all up to God who understands the stones as men falling, and who will continue to see them as mere physical stones knocked down by Romans.

If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you might say unto a sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root and be planted in the sea, and it would obey you. Is that faith to judge a physical tree, or something infinitely more important? Even as Christ said to the Fig tree, let no more fruit grow on you forever. Is God merely cursing a tree, or is He declaring that tree "represented" Israel whom He came to seeking fruit, and there was none? 


Quote
>>>
And the generation that destroyed the city and sanctuary?
<<<

Daniel 9:26

Michael and His Messengers at war wit the messengers of Evil, where His own people destroyed both city and sanctuary when they rejected and killed Christ. It is this generation or family of evil that was left desolate because of their abominations. Which is why Christ said to that wicked family,

Matthew 23:33-38

Clearly, the generation or family He spoke about was Jerusalem. Not literal bricks or stones, but the people, the people of this prince, His people of the Old Testament congregation. Christ is talking to a family of vipers who have murdered His chosen since Cain murdered Able in the beginning, not a physical city. This is the family that destroyed city and sanctuary and the people or family who it will be required of.


Quote
>>>
And the generation that destroyed the city and sanctuary?
<<<

Read it again;

Daniel 9:26

I am being redundant because I never know when it may finally sink in that the city and sanctuary that was destroyed was not made of physical stones, rocks or bricks, but are the wicked who were judged. God has no interest in judging inanimate objects and laying them even with the ground. It's the people of His congregation who were totally destroyed, left in ruins, made totally desolate because of their abominations. A new congregation was established on better promises, the old never to rise again, despite the objections of apologists.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on July 04, 2017, 03:21:54 AM
>>>
It doesn't need to fit, it's a hyperbole.
<<<

Translation: Yes it's inconsistent and contradictory, but because I can't make it fit, I'll just claim Christ ddn't mean it "literally" He was exaggerating.

Which means He was overstating or magnifying beyond the limits of truth, making it seem worse than it really was. Because that's what a hyperbole is, an exaggeration. May I remind you that Christ is the very living Word of God, the very personification of truth. Thus, for any Bible believing Christian, when Christ says that not one stone would be left standing one upon another in the city of Jerusalem and the Temple, you can be absolutely sure that in some way, "NOT ONE STONE" was left standing one upon another. Thus the Old Testament city of Jerusalem and its temple was laid even with the ground where it simply doesn't exist anymore as the Lord's house, as the Holy City, as the Holy Temple or as the Holy Kingdom of God on earth. Every stone of it was thrown down. The Kingdom has all been taken from His people and given to aother. Christ is the head cornerstone of a New Testament building, a New Jerusalem, a New Covenant with Israel, a New Holy Temple, with both Jews and Gentiles as the lively or living stiones of that rebuilding. It absolutely does need to fit, and it does, proving it's not a hyperbole. It's the truth exactly as prophesied.

Ephesians 2:19-22

There is your rebuilding. There is your Holy Temple. There are the stones of this rebuilding of the Temple. Not as the Zionists suppose, but as God always prophesied. Do you know what the term "fitly framed" in that verse means? It means joined closely together like a glove. i.e., it fits perfectly! It means stones placed precisely, exactly, so as to fit together seamlessly. Contrast that with your humanistic easoning that His words don't have to fit "exactly" the prophecy of the stones of this City and Temple. God says the stones fit snugly and grows into the Holy Temple. How much more His word that in the previous building, not one stone would be left standing one upon another would fit perfectly? Selah.


Quote
>>>
It just needs to be explained so you can understand it,
<<<

Correct, and the explanation comes from God's Holy word, not from the rantings of Tony Warren, not from the book of John Walvoord, not from the musings of Martin Luther and not from the exaggerations of Josephus. God's word is clear on the matter of the destroying of the Temple by destroying Him as its chief corner stone, and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple of God stone upon stone, Christ, apostles, saints.

1st Corinthians 3:9-13

We in the New Covenant dispensation are the stones of the Temple rebuilding. Not as Dispensationalists imagine a rebuilt Holy Temple of Israel, but as God always intended.


Quote
>>>
and Dr. John Walvoord does an excellent job of that.
<<<

I'm very familiar with is books and I'm sorry to say that the late Dr. John J. Walvoord did an excellent job of ignoring Scriptures and avoiding difficult contradictions to his theories about Israel and the church. Again, we should go to the source for explanations, not to men. As righteous Joseph:

Genesis 40:8

Doesn't interpretations belong to God? Yes, they do. So the question is, How does God define stones of the Temple and how does God define the church as a chosen generation and how does God define the rebuilding of the city and Temple and with what corner stone? These are the pertinent questions. Not whether Josephus is a honest reprobate historian or not to be able to authoritatively interpret Scripture for us.


Quote
>>>
What you don't understand is that all the stones didn't need to be thrown down,
<<<

According to Scripture, not only did they need to be thrown down, but they were. The people (who were the stones of this city) were devastated so that not one of them remained standing.

John 2:19

The applicatory question should be, did the Jews destroy the Holy Temple as Christ prophesied here they would, was it a sign as Christ answered them in request for one, when was this destruction of the Temple Christ spoke of, and how was this Temple risen again in three days gain fulfilling Cjhrist's prophesy? The cornerstone of their Temple was destroyed "signifying" their desolation, and it was raised up again in 3 days a cornerstone of a New Temple.

Moreover, you can't rebuild a Temple and city until the old ones are destroyed. I ask you honestly, by whose authority do you hypothesize that it didn't have to be true that not one stone would be left standing on top of another in the City and Holy Sanctuary? You cannot just usurp authority of God's word simply because you can't "make it fit" your personal opinions about fulfilled prophesy.


Quote
>>>
it's enough that the city was in ruins and the historical record shows it was destroyed.
<<<

It's enough for the careless, but not enough for God who declares that there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Look at the example of God speaking about His congregation as spiritually Babylon, and note the language of it being "thrown down" like a great millstone and never being found again. Now that's what you would call total destruction that cannotbe repaired, as was the Old Testament Holy City of Jerusalem and the Temple thereof. It's "obviously" the exact same message of desolation of the Lord's congregation, not of a physical or literal Great city.

Revelation 18:21

Just as God says this great city will be thrown down and none of it to be found ever again, so the great city of Jerusalem was thrown down, and not one stone remaining there. Very same principle of the desolation of God's people because of their abominations.

Of course, you and I can do this dance until the cows come home, but God's word cannot be adulterated. The bottom line is that I didn't say not one stone, Christ said that. I am merely faithfully testifying to "exactly" what He declared. By contrast, I can't be accused of taking away from it one single word in any sense, but you can. My point being, God's word is the authority, not our changing the meaning of it.  If you have a problem with the word of accuracy in "not one stone left standing upon another,"  take it up with the author.


Quote
>>>
The problem with you liberal, amillennialist, reformers is that you reject God's people Israel and their restoration.
<<<

The problem with "us Liberal Reformers" is that we won't blindly follow Dispensationalist, Reformed, Catholic or Evangelical leaders, choosing instead to faithfully follow the "actual" word of the living God itself. I'm sure this torments many to no end, however their torment is not going to keep us from witnessing to the testimony of Christ. For in TRUTH, it's not us liberal, amillennialist, reformers that reject God's people Israel and their restoration (as you charge), it's the Dispensational Zionists that are rejecting truth.


Quote
>>>
Here's what John said about that...
<<<

Never mind John. We have a more sound "authority" to go to, so here's what God says about it:

Galatians 3:28
Colossians 3:11
Ephesians 2:11-22

You see, we not only read all of that, we actually believe it. Not with mere lip service to it while effectively denyingit, but in the faith of Christ where we see it as actually true.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on July 04, 2017, 03:44:00 AM
>>>
Excuse is a good word for it Erik.
<<<

It certainly is. Excuse, justification, pretext, rationalisation, the bottom line is it's all just subterfuge. Anything to evade having to accept what is clearly written concerning the positioning of "all" the stones. Handling the word of God deceitfully is changing or corrupting the word by mixing it with humanism or worldly inventions, maybe even the babblings of Josephus, anything in order to make it acceptable to those who will not receive a divine interpretation directly from the Spirit in authority of the Scriptures. i.e., stones not as the world defines them, but as God all through His own word has defineed them. 70 A.D. is an excuse not to believe the Spirit, not a fulfillment of the word. A evil and unfaithful generation seeks excuses not to believe all the stones of the Old Testament City and Temple WERE thrown down, that the City and Temple could be rebuilt in the New Testament dispensation. These worldly things like Temples, Cities and Holy rooms were "types" signifying things far more important than stones, lampstands and physical tabernacles.

Hebrews 9:8-10

Stone, temples, tabernacles, animal scarifices, cities, Kingdoms, candlesticks, etc., these were all types, figures, tokens of something far more important than animal blood, a Temple or a King like David. These were all types, a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple, and the New by the New Testament Holy Temple. The first had to fall FIRST  in order for the second to start building. This is the Spiritual nature of the whole Bible, that unfortunately many Christians blind themselves to. Christ came as the building Stone for Israel, but was rejected and destroyed (John 2:19) where "that" Holy Temple representation was thrown down and not one stone left, and Christ became the foundation stone of the New Testament church, and the New Testament Jews are the stones built upon Him. Part of the mystery is that this was always as intended.


Quote
>>>
They're really saying, it doesn't really matter what God said, he was just kidding or embellishing the story.
<<<

Absolutely. They are saying you don't have to pay attention to the details or specifics, let's just deal in flexible generalities so we don't have to accept the infallible authority of clear statements. They want to deal in bromide instead of sound exegesis. That's not the humble, more noble honesty of the Bereans. That is just the opposite mentality.

2nd Corinthians 4:2

There are the noble/honest Bereans who receive God's word as authoritative and thus through faith "believe" and follow it, and then there are those who unrighteously twist God's word to suit their own personal beliefs in order that they may lead it.


Quote
>>>
You would think that when Christians find that their beliefs don't really match what was said in scripture, they would change their beliefs.
<<<

The "truth" is, Christians do. Now, later, eventually, whenever, they actually do. For the Spirit of truth is within them, and the Spirit is vexed by deceit and rejection of truth. I know so many modern progressive Christians don't like to hear that because of their misguided ideas ofd Christian love, but in reality, those always offended by truth cannot be of truth. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Matthew 24:10-11

The scenario has not changed and will not change. "Many" who are offended by the truth erroneously call truth self-righteousness, a lack of love, a lack of compassion or "just your opinion." But truth doesn't have to defend itself. You're right, you would think that when Christians find that their beliefs don't really match what was said in scripture, they would change their beliefs. ...and they do. Today, tomorrow, when ever, they do. But among the sheep there are goats and wolves in sheep's clothing.


Quote
>>>
But instead they try and change what was said in scripture to fit their beliefs. That is the most disturbing part of all this.
<<<

Those who try and change what was said in Scripture to fit their beliefs are departing from the faith and are on the path to desolation. Yes, it is truly disturbing, which is why faithful Christians mourn for them, pray for them and witness to them in hopes that God might have mercy and help their unbelief.

Hebrews 3:12-13

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Melanie on July 04, 2017, 05:25:04 AM
 :BibleRead: Exceptional! Thanks!  :God:Bl-U:
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Melanie on July 04, 2017, 05:51:01 AM
>>>
The problem with you liberal, amillennialist, reformers is that you reject God's people Israel and their restoration.
<<<

The problem with "us Liberal Reformers" is that we won't blindly follow Dispensationalist, Reformed, Catholic or Evangelical leaders, choosing instead to faithfully follow the "actual" word of the living God itself.

Is this not the 20th time I've heard someone who clearly can't defend their own positions with sound arguments resort to calling Bible-believing Christians liberals? Just who do they think they're fooling? It's like Trump tweeting something outlandish or controversial in order to detract or distract from what are legitimate questions. Tony's questions are legitimate questions. I believe that this tactic only works on brainwashed and uneducated people. Granted, there are a lot of brainwashed and uneducated Christians  :baghead:, but not a lot of them here. So don't waste your efforts with that.

But people who know the Bible don't fall for those types of red herrings. And that's all it is. The issue is what does the Bible say about this, not who is a liberal, amillennial or reformed.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: ZeroCool on July 04, 2017, 07:03:10 AM
Granted, there are a lot of brainwashed and uneducated Christians  :baghead:, but not a lot of them here.

 :iagree: From all I've learned on this forum, that's a true statement. A lot of people knowledgeable in scripture here. No televangelist yarns or prayer cloth theology preached here.

George,
"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." Isaiah 34:16

It didn't fail that not one stone would remain that isn't thrown down, it all came to pass.  I love the Bible.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Lieberman on July 04, 2017, 12:04:29 PM
The problem with you liberal, amillennialist, reformers is that you reject God's people Israel and their restoration.

Melanie, You are correct!
Red Herring
(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAaeAAAAJGRjMjM1ZDJlLWE2YTQtNDcxOC1hMWE3LWQ2YTQ2NGU2YjExMw.png)

George has no serious answers to serious questions to him, and like Fred, his partner in Dispensational crimes, never has.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Manuel on December 02, 2017, 01:51:02 PM
I read this quote on ebible and wanted to know  some opinions on its verasity.

     "in regards to Matthew 24:34 it my belief that when Jesus said 'this generation' that he meant
      'that generation' - When reading the bible it's critical to first try and understand it from a first
      century understanding or in other words what did it mean to the people who were listening to
      Jesus speak."

From what I am reading in this thread, it would seen many disagree that this generation referred to the people of that generation. Am I correct in this? If so, how do you reconcile that with normal historical grammatical understanding?
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Pearson on December 02, 2017, 03:08:59 PM
From what I am reading in this thread, it would seen many disagree that this generation referred to the people of that generation.

[Soapbox mode on]

No, the bible is always true.  It does refer to the people of that generation, but not all the people were of that generation. You probably just glanced through, but I would suggest you should read this whole thread and also the article by Tony Warren which explains it. The link in the thread is old and broken, but here is the correct link.

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/generation.shtml

This is the only explanation I've found that passes the smell test and is consistent with everything in the bible.


Quote
Am I correct in this? If so, how do you reconcile that with normal historical grammatical understanding?

I don't see how it would be problematic. This generation refers to a geno or family. The generation of vipers that Christ kept talking about. The viper is Satan and these wicked people were his family or generation.

Matthew 12:34
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Their hearts were desperately wicked because they were the children of Satan.

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

It has nothing to do with time, but with Satan's family, the generation of vipers or evil.


(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Manuel on December 03, 2017, 07:52:36 AM
Thank you Pearson for your reply. I have now read the link and it is a possibility. Still, don't you think that it sounds like the sentence is more normal saying "this generation shall not pass," meaning the generation that is there at that present time? Or if you will, the family that was there st that present time.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Pearson on December 03, 2017, 09:16:33 AM
Still, don't you think that it sounds like the sentence is more normal saying "this generation shall not pass," meaning the generation that is there at that present time?

[Soapbox mode on]
What is normal? To me, it's not normal to say this wicked generation and refer to all the Jews living in Israel. Especially when Christ calls those who follow him his faithful sheep who shall not see this judgment of the blood of Abel upon that generation. So what is normal language? Is it normal language for Christ to call his Apostles a generation of vipers? I would say absolutely not. So that precludes them from being that generation of vipers. Isn't that correct? Confirming there is more than one generation involved here.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Rich Aikers on December 07, 2017, 03:20:43 AM
Look at it this way Manuel. It is saying this generation shall not pass and it is talking about a family there at that time. The fact that Christ says until all be fulfilled means that generation would last until the return of Christ. That is the only time when all will be fulfilled. Particularly the things he was talking about.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Manuel on December 09, 2017, 04:34:43 PM
Look at it this way Manuel. It is saying this generation shall not pass and it is talking about a family there at that time. The fact that Christ says until all be fulfilled means that generation would last until the return of Christ. That is the only time when all will be fulfilled. Particularly the things he was talking about.

Oh, you mean everything in the Bible? That's when all will be fulfilled. Oh that makes sense I guess.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on December 11, 2017, 07:47:38 AM
>>>
Thank you Pearson for your reply. I have now read the link and it is a possibility. Still, don't you think that it sounds like the sentence is more normal saying "this generation shall not pass," meaning the generation that is there at that present time?
<<<

From the beginning God has prophesied in a way we might call cryptically rather than flat out saying things in the normal grammatical way. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. For example, you'd be hard pressed to read the Old Testament and find a sentence in Scripture that plainly says, "I will judge Israel, and the kingdom shall be taken from this nation and given to the Gentiles" in plain language. Nevertheless, that prophesy is there in the Old Testament. It was actually concealed, a type of mystery or secret to be revealed later in God's providence. Why?

Proverbs 25:2

It is to God's glory that He conceals by speaking in parables or in a way that is esoteric in order to confound the willful, obstinate, slothful and foolish. That's God's Prerogative. Yet once a thing is diligently searched out in Scripture and understood in its own jurisprudence, the truth that was always there is revealed by the Spirit--to God's glory. We rejouce at learning the truth and God is glorified. Indeed, as that Scripture testifies, it is the honor of kings (ultimately Christians) to search out a matter because in doing so, their qualification, the evidence of the Spirit that God has graciously given them, is revealed in their honesty and ultimate discernment in wisdom. In this way of searching out things in Scripture in order to adjudicate, kings more fully understand God's just and righteous  administration of the Kingdom.

Proverbs 31:8-9

In other words, search this out, not as referring to people with no physical ability to speak for themselves, but we find that it is for your charity or agape love for the less fortunate-- those appointed to destruction with no one but you to plead their cause. THAT is the honor of kings in revealing truths and making known the mysteries of God's dark (hidden) sayings, cryptic imagery, similitudes and parables. God's people are honorable. That is to say, they are more noble because they have the Spirit of truth that causes then not to trample God's word underfoot, but consider it wisely. The obstinate have no fear in contradicting God if they want to believe something contrary. Because unlike the more noble Bereans (Acts 17:11) they have no love of truth, no spirit that hates lies. For this reason, truth is often hidden from them in plain sight or as seeing through a glass darkly. In parables orlanguage that they can easily twist in order not to receive the truth.

Proverbs 1:6-7

Attempt to instruct a fool (one ignorant of God's Spirit of truth) the testimony of the truth of Scripture and he will despise what you have to say and argue with it. In actuality, he's really arguing with God. The truth is hidden from him.  In concealing a thing, God's infinite perfections in word and being is revealed through study and searching. Thus by judging righteously through His mysterious and often cryptic word, the unsearchableness of his ways and providence are found.

You may ask, how does this relate to "this generation?" Well, because the truth is that we can accept simple and convoluted explanations that are clearly neither consistent nor Biblically tenable once the Scriptures are searched, or we can search it out for the gold nuggets that are in harmony with all of God's word concerning the generation of vipers and evil. A generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled. The family upon whom all the blood from Abel to Zecharias (Luke 11:51)  will be required, which is clearly not simply some people living in a lifespan around 2000 years ago, but of a family that existed from the beginning. The family of Satan, the generation of evil.

Matthew 23:2933

How is Satan the father of this generation? How are they following in his footsteps? Because this is a family, the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled. Selah.


Quote
>>>
 Or if you will, the family that was there st that present time.
<<<

But if we're going to judge by what "sounds better" today, in our understanding, rather than by what is consistent and Biblically verifiable, then we're going to be lost before we start. Interpretations belong to God. The generation (family) that was there at the present time was the evil and adulterous generation that sought after a sign.  Likewise, there was a chosen and holy generation, the people that God would raise up as a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people, that should show forth the praises of God who has called them out of darkness into his marvelous light. Two bothers, two families that have been at odds with each other since Cain shed the blood of Able, and since Esau  struggled against Jacob within the womb. How else would This Generation be responsible for the blood of Abel and have it required of it? Would the generation consisting of the 12 Apostles have it required? No, they're not the family that killed Abel. And so by all logical understanding, "this generation" could not be referencing everyone living at that time. One generation there will have the blood of Able required of it, and one will not because the devil is not their father, they are not his children, for they are not of that generation or family.

Matthew 23:35-346

What things? God's Judgments. But not upon those who were also there at that time, as the apostles who Christ said were children of God. They are a very different generation than that generation of vipers/serpents. Indeed, Christ actually labels them a generation of light and contrasts them with the generation of darkness.

Luke 16:8

In Their Generation, as opposed to the generation of the children of light. Two Families or generations that have been at odds with each other from the beginning, and shall not pass until all be fulfilled.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Chris on December 12, 2017, 05:29:25 AM

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19

Tony, here's a man that would say the same thing of you.  "Sir, I perceive thou art a prophet" who is truly blessed of God to preach the scriptures honestly, rationally, and with integrity. The Spirit is obviously with you.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." I John 4:1

It's clear to see the Spirit works greatly in you.  I am in awe of God!  You are a true follower of Christ that I have not seen many of in these last days. Keep up the good work. I cannot believe that people still have a problem with this understanding. It's the only one that works.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on December 12, 2017, 07:19:36 AM

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19

Tony, here's a man that would say the same thing of you.  "Sir, I perceive thou art a prophet" who is truly blessed of God to preach the scriptures honestly, rationally, and with integrity. The Spirit is obviously with you.


I Second That!  ]ThUmBsUp[
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Puritan Heart on December 12, 2017, 08:23:34 AM

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19

Tony, here's a man that would say the same thing of you.  "Sir, I perceive thou art a prophet" who is truly blessed of God to preach the scriptures honestly, rationally, and with integrity. The Spirit is obviously with you.


I Second That!  ]ThUmBsUp[

AMEN to that !!    :)
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Rupert on December 12, 2017, 09:06:18 AM
I'll admit that I had never even heard of this understanding of the phrase "this Generation" until I came to this website this year. I always assumed it meant the people of that time. But I must confess, not only do I find this thread fascinating and thought provoking, I'm now convinced that this is the true understanding of that passage. Has anyone else thought they understood some things, and then you have some things explained and you read some things in scripture and a light goes on and you say, AHA! Now I get it? That's how I feel about this subject.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Puritan Heart on December 12, 2017, 09:32:51 AM
I'll admit that I had never even heard of this understanding of the phrase "this Generation" until I came to this website this year. I always assumed it meant the people of that time. But I must confess, not only do I find this thread fascinating and thought provoking, I'm now convinced that this is the true understanding of that passage. Has anyone else thought they understood some things, and then you have some things explained and you read some things in scripture and a light goes on and you say, AHA! Now I get it? That's how I feel about this subject.

Hello Rupert,

Your reply really excited me !!  :)

In answer to the *AHA !* moment you speak of...I have these Marvelous AHA ! moments with ever increasing frequency, but it only started after I joined this forum ... the more you meditate on His Glorious Word, allowing scripture to interpret scripture, the more He *feeds the hungry soul.*

Psalm 107 v 9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

Forget about all the elaborate and so called sophisticated theological terminologies and All the man made doctrines !!  Read, read, and then read some more, The Holy Word of God !!

I offer you a link to the KJV Bible online;  read by Alexander Scourby.

list=PLo_B1fyZewkWYFDnO5lojBSjCZa-OyFaz&index=1

I pray for you my brother, that God in His tender mercy will continue to pour forth His Divine revelation into your hungry soul...

THIS is what I call REAL JOY !!!!  :)

Alexandra











Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Melanie on December 12, 2017, 11:59:37 AM
Yup, we all have had those aha moments! God is Good!
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Red on December 12, 2017, 04:44:01 PM
AMEN to that !!    :)
Same here~I well remembered reading through everything by Tony back in early 2000~and left this short mesage back then:[quotehttps://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/warren-tony_p_01.html[/quote] and said:
Quote from: Red Baker
Date: 09 Oct 2005
Time: 20:07:52

Comments:

Mr. Warren, I have read most of your works the past two months, thank you so much Rev 7, Rev.12, Rev. 11, Rev 20 2Thess 2, Mark of the beast, A. of Desolation, Matt. 24, "this generation" (do you know where I could read another sermon on this subject) and other sermons by you.  Thank you SO MUCH. your writings were easy to follow, and the truth PLAINLY taught.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: David Knoles on December 13, 2017, 07:04:13 AM
Even the Preterists know that's wrong. If Tony's interpretation is correct, then how come no seminary or prominent Pastor or theologian is teaching it? What is it, a secret that no one knows but Tony? If you really want to know what the meaning is, read  some of the writers from Dallas Theological Seminary. You'll find your answers.

Luke 17:25
But first he must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Red on December 13, 2017, 07:35:03 AM
Even the Preterists know that's wrong. If Tony's interpretation is correct, then how come no seminary or prominent Pastor or theologian is teaching it? What is it, a secret that no one knows but Tony? If you really want to know what the meaning is, read  some of the writers from Dallas Theological Seminary. You'll find your answers.
Greetings David, that's the very system I was trained under (Dallas Theological Seminary) starting in 1974, and quickly realized that that system had holes in its fortress of faith. I left that school of thought and its churches in 1978 and over a period of time was slowly converted to where I'm now. It wasn't until late 90's early 2000 that I saw and understood how the scriptures used the phrase "this generation" and how the spiritual puzzle came perfectly together to make every piece fit where God (not Mr. Warren) intended them to fit. Most people are like one of my grandson's~I bought the little lad a puzzle when he was small and when he could not make a piece fit where his little mind THOUGHT it should go he stood up and lifted his leg up into the air and slam the piece where he thought it should go...I said Luke that's not how you do puzzles, yet people do the scriptures the same way! No one can be assured they have the truth on any given doctrine UNTIL all pieces fit perfectly, and concerning this generation referring to evil and wicked men, it does.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Luke 17:25~"But first he must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation".
Meaning evil and wicked men who did not believe, the SAME generation that God's faithful have suffered from since Cain!
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Johnny on December 13, 2017, 03:05:03 PM
Greetings David, that the very system I was trained under (Dallas Theological Seminary) starting in 1974, and quickly realized that that system had holes in its fortress of faith. I left that school of thought and its churches in 1978 and over a period of time was slowly converted to where I'm now. It wasn't until late 90's early 2000 that I saw and understood how the scriptures used the phrase "this generation" and how the spiritual puzzle came perfectly together to make every piece fit where God (not Mr. Warren) intended them to fit. Most people are like one of my grandson's~I bought the little lad a puzzle when he small and when he could not make a piece fit where his little mind THOUGHT it should go he stood up and lifted his leg up into the air and slam the piece where he thought it should go...I said Luke that's not how you do puzzles, yet people do the scriptures the same way!

Yes they do. I had thought you were new and was going to post the welcome newcomer sign, but then I saw you had over 160 posts. So I guess you've been away for awhile. Nice reply, welcome back.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Reformer on December 14, 2017, 03:14:24 AM
Yes they do. I had thought you were new and was going to post the welcome newcomer sign, but then I saw you had over 160 posts.

Johnny,
  I remember Red. It's just another sign of how old I'm getting.  ;)
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Diane Moody on December 14, 2017, 08:38:46 AM
Even the Preterists know that's wrong.

Preterists are false teachers. Of course they would object to truth.


Quote
If you really want to know what the meaning is, read  some of the writers from Dallas Theological Seminary. You'll find your answers.

Home of Dispensationalism. That's false religion too. You need to educate yourself of scripture, not Dispensational thought.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Maurice on December 15, 2017, 03:06:34 PM


How long is a Generation really?

https://isogg.org/wiki/How_long_is_a_generation%3F_Science_provides_an_answer

Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Red on December 15, 2017, 04:11:19 PM
Quote
How long is a Generation really?

https://isogg.org/wiki/How_long_is_a_generation%3F_Science_provides_an_answer
Your site said:
Quote
How long is a generation? Science provides an answer
Science does not intrepet scriptures, God does, and children of faith follow him, not science so-called.
Quote
How long is a Generation really?
Since children of God are a chosen generation, then I would say from eternity past to eternity WITHOUT END! In this sense it has NO end according to God's method of measuing HIS GENERATION of his people! The wicked's generation ENDS in the lake of fire, which IS the second death.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Tony Warren on December 16, 2017, 06:02:38 AM
>>>
Even the Preterists know that's wrong.
<<<

Well, even the Catholics know Dispensationalism is wrong! Does that carry any weight with you? Or even the Mormons know Predestination is wrong! That doesn't change my mind concerning Scripture.  Preterists think they know that a lot of things are wrong, but how many would you agree with on your doctrines? So the point is, it doesn't matter how many people think something is wrong. Truth is not by consensus or agreement with man's words, it is by consensus and agreement with God's word. When I look for agreement with God's word, I find that generation is a posterity, seed or children of evil--what Christ called a evil, adulterous generation of vipers. He said this is a wicked generation. It all points to the children of the Devil, not all people of a certain specific age.

Proverbs 30:12

What generation (time period) is that? Was there one specific generation that was pure in their own eyes? No, these people are that generation that Christ called the generation of darkness that were in some ways wiser than the children of light? This is the family that proverbs says is the vain and filthy. Because there's never been one generation at one specific time (generation), that were pure in their own eyes and not washed from their filthiness, they exist throughout the history of the world. They are all the children of the Devil at all times who are unwashed.


Quote
>>>
What is it, a secret that no one knows but Tony?
<<<

It does remain a secret or mystery to the lofty spirit, but by grace of God many can know it  through the humility in the Spiritual wisdom of Christ Jesus. Never through vain intelligence, blind tradition, the hard heart, obstinance, or the wisdom of the world. Blessed are the meek, humble and contrite of spirit.

Psalms 51:17

Sacrifices that are Spiritual is what God desires. Humility is in truly understanding how much you've got to know, before you learn how little you know. Selah.


Quote
>>>
 If you really want to know what the meaning is, read  some of the writers from Dallas Theological Seminary. You'll find your answers.
<<<

True you may find "your" answers, but will you find God's answers? So yes, that is one way to look at it--another is that if you really want to know what the meaning is, read the Bible, which is God's unadulterated and infallible word that (unlike the words of men) can never be wrong, inaccurate, contradictory or false. Lest we forget, the Scribes, Pharisees, Elders and Chief Priest, all studied in their own institutions of higher learning, and for all their learning, they were all still very wrong concerning Scripture weren't they?

2nd Timothy 3:7

Obstinance and arrogance does that to you. Preachers and institutions may teach many things, but the true nature and Spirit of God's WORD and His Kingdom they often miss. This because they neglect the most basic rule of sound hermeneutics. "Interpretations belong to God!" So close and yet so far off.


Quote
>>>
Luke 17:25
But first he must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.
<<<

He wasn't rejected of John the Baptist or others who were the election. So the question is, by whom did He suffer and by whom was rejected? Was it the chosen generation of Jews that were His apostles and followed with him, or was it the evil generation of vipers that hated and persecuted Him? We don't have to guess because as I said, interpretations belong to God. As it is written, let God be true and every man a liar.

Mark 8:31

He taught "who" that "who" would cause Him suffering and reject him? Here we see God's declaration of what generation He suffered many things and was rejected of. It wasn't a generation as in all the children of that age or period of time, but those who were children of the devil. Those who insulted, reviled and hated Him. Once again we find that interpretations belong to God, not the seminaries, theological institutions, vaunted Priests, Pastors and Televangelists.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on January 02, 2018, 02:31:31 PM
I'll admit that I had never even heard of this understanding of the phrase "this Generation" until I came to this website this year

That's because Tony Warren doesn't know what he is talking about. Obviously! Don't you think someone else would have come to this conclusion long ago if it had any merit?  A generation is around 30 - 40 years according to scholars and academia.

"A generation is "all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively." It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during ... Wikipedia"

"the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time. ... Dictionary.com"

So taking Scripture literally, that would be the people around to witnessed Christ and his crucifixion.  Words have known meanings, not unknown meanings.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: Trevor on January 03, 2018, 01:35:08 AM
 )hammerhead( )hammerhead( )hammerhead( )hammerhead( )hammerhead( )hammerhead( )hammerhead(

George. Since you seem so enthralled with the words of Hebrew scholars, how about going to the biblical scholars rather than Wikapedia who knows about as much about scripture as King Herod did. For example James Strong, noted biblical scholar, educator and the creator of Strong's Concordance, defines the word in Genesis 5 that refers to "the book of the Generations of Noah" as towldah. He says the word means "descent, ie. family, the history thereof, birth or the generations or families from that birth. So perhaps instead of looking to dictionary.com for explanations of biblical terms, you should educate yourself on the way God's people used the term. Strong's concordance says the root word of towldah is yalad, and that word means to bear young, lineage through birth, or to bring forth children. The same in the Greek as Tony already demonstrated quite clearly. It means family.

Matthew 12:33-34
"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Christ is saying that the work of these wicked are like fruit generated or born of the evil tree, they came forth from a tree that cannot bear good fruit. That is why Christ called them a generation of vipers. In that context, they are generated and have the nativity of vipers. In other psrts Christ calls them children of the devil. They are the family of the serpent and that from their mouths is not good fruit.

Another very enlightening thing to note is that the Hebrew word towlad also shares the same root word yalad, which is the same as towldah. Towlad means children or one's posterity. If you study the Hebrew concordance you will see that the word yalad, the root word for both towlad and towldah, means to bear young, to beget, show lineage, to bring forth children (James Strong). So if you take these words very literally as you claim, then there would be no question that the word generation means descent, which is another word for children or family. Which is why Christ calls the children of the Devil a generation of vipers. Because they were his descent, family lineage, children, posterity, etc.

So I think that Tony Warren knows a lot more about scripture and biblical scholarship than dictionary.com, or you for that matter. It's not a question of if this is true or not, but of denial of Biblical facts by Christians predisposed to rejecting facts. Facts that you could check out yourself if you were so inclined to know the actual truth of the matter.
Title: Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
Post by: George on January 03, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
I'm not saying it couldn't mean children of vipers in that context, but in the context we're discussing it means that generation living at that time.

Matt. 23:36
"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

This is the context, not what you are bringing up.