The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Joanne on October 24, 2004, 05:53:53 AM

Title: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Joanne on October 24, 2004, 05:53:53 AM
If we are saved by Grace alone, what does it mean that faith without works is dead?

 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

Doesn't this say Abraham was justified by works?

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: judykanova on October 24, 2004, 06:07:37 PM
If we are saved by Grace alone, what does it mean that faith without works is dead?

 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

Doesn't this say Abraham was justified by works?

joanne,

This is a good question.  It appears that James and Paul taught opposing doctrines of 'works' versus 'Grace'.  However, the key to understanding Scripture is to find harmony in ALL the teachings of the Bible, since the Bible is ALL from God. 

So when we compare Scripture with Scripture as we are commanded to do, we often find passages that help us reconcile seeming contradictions.  Examples of such passages in this case, I believe are these:

Rom 9:13-24

13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Gal 2:16

16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Please note, the true translation from the original Greek says faith OF Christ, not IN Christ.   Christ is the faithful one, and it's His righteousness that is imputed to those He saves. 

Rev 19:11  
 
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


So then, we can't take the credit for good works, for they reflect the 'workings' of Christ in us, 'to will and to do' HIS good pleasure.

Phi 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Gal 6:14-16

14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


It boils down to cause and effect, with some trying to put the cart before the horse.

Rom 8:29-30

29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 11:5-6

5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.  

It also sometimes boils down to where God places the most 'weight', which is clearly on the side of Grace.  I sometimes think that God included the book of James in the Bible as a test -- namely a separation of the 'wheat' from the 'tares', for some of the things James says are not easily reconciled.

Hope this helps.

judy
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on October 24, 2004, 06:13:05 PM
>>>
If we are saved by Grace alone, what does it mean that faith without works is dead?
<<<


The "faith of Christ" is living faith. Thus any faith without Christ is dead and cannot have the evidence of the work of salvation. Living faith is "evidenced" in our works. Therefore, if faith has no works evidencing Christ, it is a dead faith. A faith such as that which WWII Kamkazi pilots had is dead faith. That is to say, faith without works.  Or the faith that some false prophets and teachers have. It is a dead faith because it is not faith based on Christ's work, who makes it living faith. Hence it is a "faith" that brings forth no fruit or works, because faith is dead without Christ.

Matthew 7:20-21

Works are not the reason for salvation or rewards, it is the evidence of salvation. All sons of God who are "really" regenerated will produce "fruit." But not of themselves, it is the works of God through the Spirit that works within them to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:21).

The scripture cannot mean that our own works justify us (that would make the word contradict itself), rather it is illustrating that the work of Christ justifies us. The Biblical principle is that if Christians must do some work of themselves in order to obtain something, then their works have become a requirement. i.e., it becomes a gospel based upon our own works. Likewise, if Christians are rewarded depending upon what they  have done on earth, again it's not the reward of Grace, it's a debt God owes them. Clearly, God declares such a gospel not of Christ.

Romans 4:4

If we acquire by works, it simply cannot be the gospel of the faith of Christ, which is of Grace. Therefore anyone that works for salvation, does not have a gospel of the faithfulness of Christ, or of Grace. But if Christ has accomplished the works for us, then by faith He works in us to will and to do.

The point being, God owes us nothing as reward for our work or walk in this world (debt), for He is the one who is working within us so that we are not as desperately wicked as the next guy. That's Grace! That's what this verse is teaching. Our reward is of Grace, not of work that God would be indebted to us to pay for. Christ explained unambiguously in the parable of the Kingdom (debunking the Premillennial error) that no matter how long we work, how hard we work, or what burdens we bear while working, we all receive the "exact" same reward. That can only be "because" the reward is of Grace. Selah.

Matthew 20:1-16

So while some believe that the hard workers, the long workers, or the burdened workers shall receive more rewards, God has declared just the opposite. The word of God says that Christ is the one working in us (Christians) "both" to will, and to do. And that word translated "do" is thesame word translated work.

Philippians 2:13
Hebrews 13:21
1st Corinthians 15:10

So many theologians today retort as if God is wrong and it "was" of them, or that they shall receive some greater rewards for their well doing. But the faithful Christians of old understood that it was "NOT I," but God who is the cause of all our faithful works. Therefore, all Glory goes to Him.


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"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

Doesn't this say Abraham was justified by works?
<<<

Yes, Abraham was justified by works, but who's works? His, or the work of Christ in Him? His faith, or the faithfulness of Christ in him?  I submit that Abraham was justified by the work of Christ in Him "both" to will and to do. God has given Christians work to do, and yet it is Christ moving in us that causes us to walk and not faint, yea even to run and not be weary. Without the Spirit of Christ, would Abraham have offered up his Son in righteousness? No. That would be antithetical to human nature because of sin. He offered up Isaac on the Altar because of the faith of Christ in him.

Ephesians 2:10

Abraham didn't offer up Isaac because he was of himself a righteous man, but because of the Grace of God that was upon him. What Glory of rewards should any of us expect for something which God Himself, through Grace, is responsible for? Did we justify ourselves, or were we justified by Christ in us? As said the scriptures, if a reward is reckoned of works, then it is no more Grace, it is a debt God owes us.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Scot on October 24, 2004, 10:20:24 PM
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some of the things James says are not easily reconciled.

Luther struggled with the book of James. Thankfully, he later came to an understanding.

Excellent answers Judy & Tony.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Joanne on October 26, 2004, 03:10:51 AM
Please bear with me and thanks all for your responses. They are helping me to get a grasp of this doctrine that is so perplexing. I am still somewhat unclear of how someone can have faith, and yet be unsaved. Isn't faith being saved?

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

This seems to say Abraham was justified by works. I understand what you are saying, but if he is justified by works, then doesn't that mean that what we do will be rewarded? A justification by what we do?
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on October 26, 2004, 07:21:08 AM
>>>
Please bear with me and thanks all for your responses. They are helping me to get a grasp of this doctrine that is so perplexing. I am still somewhat unclear of how someone can have faith, and yet be unsaved. Isn't faith being saved?

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

This seems to say Abraham was justified by works. I understand what you are saying, but if he is justified by works, then doesn't that mean that what we do will be rewarded? A justification by what we do?
<<<

There are several principles here to be considered.

  1. Those who have done good will be rewarded.
  2. But, there is "none" good, all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
  3. Those in Christ will do good because of Christ quickened in them.

In other words, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were justified by works. But not their own, which would be antithetical to God's Word. Any strict Obedience to the Law will justify no man, because no man can keep the law perfectly, which is required. So of necessity, in Christ must "all men" be justified who are justified. There is none other name whereby men can be saved. There is not one who can be justified any other way than through Christ. So any understanding that does not include these facts are clearly in error.

Isaiah 45:24-25
Acts 13:39

As this scripture says, "in the Lord" shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall glory in that. The same thing we read in Romans of Abraham.

Romans 4:2

In the justification of the Lord, we glory. Not of ourselves. If Abraham "were" justified by his own works, he could glory in his own works, but not in the Lord. In true Christianity, it cannot be that any man is justified by his own works of obedience. Thus to believe Abraham was justified by "his" work of obedience in offering up Isaac, of Himself, is unbiblical. For of himself, he would be no better than any other man.

So in careful study of the second chapter of James, we see that God is putting forth the principle truth that those who are truly saved "will show forth works," because they are servants of God living the life and doing the works of Christ. It is the "evidence" of their having the "faith of Christ" in them. So that any faith that has no works, is a dead faith without that life, and which cannot justify anyone. Again, a terrorist, a false prophet, or a Kamikaze pilot may have faith, but without Christ (life), it is dead, and cannot produce the fruits of the Spirit. That Kamikaze pilot that puts his plane into a dive, killing himself in the process, and has faith that he'll go to the great happy-land beyond, that's faith without the work of Christ to back it up. Yes, it's "real" faith alright, but it is humanistic dead faith, not being justified by the work of Christ in him. A suicide bomber in the Middle East who loads himself up with explosives and blows himself up and believes that Allah will bless Him has real faith. But it is a dead faith, not being justified by the life of Christ. Christ makes faith alive. That's why we read faith "of Christ, rather than our own faith in Christ. Because without it (his, not ours), it is dead.

Colossians 2:12-13

Without Christ's work, our faith is dead faith because without Christ, man has not been quickened or made-alive. Without His faith, it is faith still dead in trespass and sins. So every true believer has faith and has works following him, but it is "evidence" (not the reason) of His salvation.

Luke 6:44

The works that we do illustrate whether we are doing the works of Christ or of man. In other words, our fruit, which is our works, is the evidence of a good tree or a bad tree. If a tree breaks forth like thorns in the flesh, it's evidence that it's not a good tree. Likewise, if it springs forth with good fruit, good works, then its evidence that it is a good tree.

James 2:17-18

In other words, our faith is seen in our works, in our fruit. If we do the will of God, obey the Word of God and do not ignore the authority of the Word of God, then our works show that we have the faith of Christ. By the same token, a man who says he has faith (He is saved) and yet has no works of obedience nor is under the authority of the Word faithfully, that is evidence of his faith being without works. Without the works of Christ that evidence it. Dead faith without the Christ truly living in him.

James 2:19

Again, God is demonstrating the principle that not everyone who says "I believe in Christ," is a true believer who has had his sins washed away. Because even the devils believe, but the true test is that their works or fruits are evil, and not of Christ. It is belief or faith that is dead, not living, because it is not of the living Christ. Those who do not have this faith are the children of disobedience who trample God's word under foot, while declaring they believe.

Those theologians who believe in the untenable doctrine of free will attempt to use this second chapter of James to put forth the idea that Abraham was justified by "his own" works. But that is a Biblically untenable position. It was the works being done in him through Christ that justified Abraham. His works were the evidence of this justification. And Christ's justification is the only justification of faith. For God's word authoritatively declares that our own works justifies no flesh. And the most basic law of sound Biblical hermeneutics is that scripture cannot contradict itself. We simply cannot say Abraham's own works justified him, while saying no flesh can be justified by his own works. It makes no sense. The confused theologians today do this, but the scriptures are quite clear on the matter. And this was put to rest earlier in Romans.

Romans 4:1-5

His faith/belief was counted as righteousness, therefore it could only be the faith of Christ. Here again God clearly tells us that whosoever receives a reward for his own works, it "CANNOT" be of the Grace of Christ. It's a debt God owed him, not Grace. Thus Abraham was not justified by his own works making it a debt God owed him, and wherein he could glory. God's Grace justified him. Therefore he had the Works of Christ, and therefore the works he did were "counted" to him as RIGHTEOUS WORKS. Only in Christ will his works be righteous and justify him. He didn't work for his reward (debt), but righteous works in him was counted to Him because of Christ (Grace). That's why that last verse of Romans says He who "worketh not," but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted unto him for righteousness. You see, when He believed, then his justification was complete in Christ where the works of Christ followed.

Jesus declared that many would say unto the Lord on that Great day, "Lord Lord," protesting that they are Christians and that they had done many good works. But the Lord will say, "depart from Me ye who work iniquity, I never knew you." Why? Because though they had works, it was works without the faith of Christ that quickeneth, which is dead. These people are those in the Churches who have faith without works. They distribute text, but they don't evangelize. They claimed the name of Christ, but denied Him by denying the authority of His holy word. They talk of love, but don't really know what love truly is. They knew the Church, but they never truly "knew" Christ. Because we show that we truly know Christ by our fruits, not by our empty words or lovely platitudes. If we by the Spirit of God are honest about ourselves, humble before God, and faithful to scripture, then it's a good bet that we truly know Christ. If we are dishonest with ourselves, always rationalizing, kidding ourselves, unfaithful to scripture, then we can show forth all the humanistic good works to men that we want. But we do not truly know God. We have a faith without the works of Christ, which is dead. Hope that helps.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Dan on October 27, 2004, 09:26:45 AM
Tony. The way you talk about grace you make an excuse for sin. God wants good works. And God does not judge man's work in the same way as men do. The woman who gave the penny did more WORK than the rich man who gave a hundred dollars. Jesus said to be careful not to do your WORKS before men to be seen of them, but rather not to let your left hand know what your right hand does. We all know that it is by grace of God that we are saved, but lets not turn this grace into a license to sin. The bible WARNS us NOT to do this? Read Romans 6 and 8 and James 2 and tell me how you do not understand those scriptures. And you might also explain the parable of the cities in Luke 19:12-27. In Jesus's Name.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on October 28, 2004, 03:08:46 AM
>>>
Tony. The way you talk about grace you make an excuse for sin.
<<<

On the contrary, I've never made any excuses for sin. And I've always said that man must try or test himself to make sure that he has the evidence of salvation present in his life.

2nd Peter 1:8-10

No, there are no excuses for sin, but where we part company is when you believe that the statement that Abraham was justified by works, means that we are justified by our own works. And that declaring that we are not, but justified by the work of Christ, means we're giving people an excuse for sin.

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God wants good works.
<<<

True. But when He looked down upon earth and saw men, how many did he see that were putting forth the good works that God wanted?

Romans 3:10-12

There is NONE that doeth good, means that there were none that did the good works God wanted. For there is none good but God. Even the Pharisees recognized that. So then, in order for God to have a people that doeth good, they would have to have Christ die for their sins, and dwell within them "both" to will and to do. Therein does God's people "do good works." Knowing this is not a license to sin, rather those who do good are a "New Creation" wherein they have an earnest desire not to sin, but to do the will of God. i.e., Philippians 2:13.


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And God does not judge man's work in the same way as men do. The woman who gave the penny did more WORK than the rich man who gave a hundred dollars.
<<<

The question before us is not how much she gave (we know how much she gave), but "would her penny be worth anything good without the faithfulness of Christ?" And the answer is no. Many people have very little and give very little (as this woman) and yet are still dead in trespass and sin. So what makes this woman different? The point was not her work, but her heart filled with agape. For the others of their abundance cast money into the offerings of God, but this woman of her poverty cast in all she had, showing her heart was not upon the things of this world, but on God. Her poverty is a spiritual (humble) condition, and likewise her charity a spiritual condition. This parable has noting to do with her being justified by her work of giving a penny to charity, but is rather illustrating the condition of her heart, and her giving as she was given. And this is contrasted with the condition of the rich in spirit, those who rely on self and will not give up everything to charity for the Lord. For the believer is bought with a price, knows God will provide, and thus will humbly give bountifully, surrendering all to the Lord.

2nd Corinthians 9:6-8

That's why you have professed Christians who do nothing but go to work and come home, go to work and come home. They have no desire to work for the Lord, only to have the Lord work for them. And you have Christians who are filled with the Spirit to do the good work in spreading Christian charity in evangelizing. As this verse says, we have no fear of giving cheerfully because we trust God that He gives to His people sufficiently that they many abound to every good work. There is a Spiritual picture being painted here. As Christ said, "Feed My Sheep!" Unfortunately today, most professed Christians are only interested in making a living, enjoying this life, being men of renowned,  popular, men of humanistic love. The point being, "work" being the good works of Christ, are defined by God, not men. And who gives more is defined by the heart, not the penury of the pocketbook.


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Jesus said to be careful not to do your WORKS before men to be seen of them, but rather not to let your left hand know what your right hand does.
<<<

And why are we to do our works in secret? Because the glory belongs to God, not us. There are those who have been given the heart to give charitably what they have to the poor in spirit. They aren't the hearers only, but the doers. And they "will" and "do" not because they are better people than the next group. But because they are humbled and indwelled by Christ.

Philippians 2:13

The question is, how many times do we have to read it before we realize that it is true? And they will and do "Not" because they are good, or that they may be seen of men, but because charity never fails, as it is the essence of true Christianity. Love of the brethren "is" the love of God in us.


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We all know that it is by grace of God that we are saved, but lets not turn this grace into a license to sin. The bible WARNS us NOT to do this?
<<<

That's a "Straw Man" argument. Because who is doing this? You certainly didn't read anything like this in any post I made. So where is this idea coming from? You are retorting against a doctrine that I neither hold, nor countenance. Allowing God's word to be the authority over this and believing faithfully what God says is hardly making Grace into a license to sin. As I've already said many times, those who have the grace of God are new creatures who walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

1st Peter 2:15-16
Romans 6:1-4
Galatians 5:13-14

No, we don't use Grace as a cloak or cover for sin, we don't sin because we know Grace abounds, and we don't use Grace as an excuse or occasion for sins. Being born from above means that we are not the old man who would do such. Good works follow because of Christ in us.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Joanne on October 29, 2004, 02:08:26 PM
Thank you, I am still learning.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: bloodstone on November 06, 2004, 04:41:54 AM
Thank you, I am still learning.

Joanne,
  This is one of those difficult to understand parts of scripture that will eventually be brought to light. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith is dead also. So "faith" is the operative word. And all you need to know is that christ supplies the faith, which moves us to work.

Those who claim we have to work in order to have faith have it all backwards. We have to have faith in order to have works. At least the kind of works that God will reward.

 1 Cor. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Our works are built upon Christ, not Christ's work built upon us.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Wonder on November 13, 2004, 10:49:56 AM
Many people see the works of Jesus as healing etc. which is true. But the other works he did include keeping His Father's laws. He was born under law. He kept His Father's laws perfect. If we are to do the works of Jesus, wouldn't it mean that He would be doing His Father's laws in us? Shouldn't those in whom He dwells be doing as He did? Abraham bound "his" son. The flesh, was presented to God as a living sacrifice by binding the flesh. All Abraham's descendants will bind the flesh as such a sacrifice, for no law has been done away with, "abolished", only changed, in the priesthood. If all sacrifices are to stop forever, how are we to present ourselves as a living sacrifice to God?
The flesh and the spirit, wheat and tares, war against each other. It is only by binding the flesh that the spirit can rule. The work that Jesus is doing is He is beginning to bind the flesh of those in whom He dwells. The work he is doing in us, caused the binding of the flesh, wearing the Word of God as in the Law.
Those of us in the law are considered working for our salvation. Not so. For He first loved us, it is His work. One cannot earn their salvation, we have read and we know this. We are not trying to earn anything. We do what we do because He first loved us.
Example:
Man meets woman, date a few months. They dwell separately. They do very little if anything for each other except spend time together. He asks her to marry Him. Did she earn his love? No. He loves her so she is willing to do as he asks. She then will wash his clothes, cook for him etc. Not earning love, only because of the love. Not because of law, but love.
What we do is because He first loved us. Not the fact we had any law telling us to do anything.
We do the works He did because it is His work in us. He binds the flesh because He loves us. Our best only comes out when He dwells within.
God is great, the law was made for man, the sinner, they go to the letter of the law that kills. It will kill the man, his will, his ways etc. The Spirit is quickened and made alive. We die, yet we live in Him. What a master plan. One only God could conceive or fulfill.
I hope this brings light on those of us who are bound in Him. We are judged harshly. People seem to judge us by what they see. As many that has condemned me, no one yet ask me why I follow God's laws? They assume I think I can earn my own salvation. We are called pagans, god wannabees, Jew wannabees etc. The list could go forever. If they would only ask us why we do what we do, we would simply say, because He first loved us. I will wear tassels, bind His word, wear His belt of truth, wear oil or do anything else He asks of me, because I also love Him.
He gave me His armor, He gives and gives to no end. What little I do, is only because He ask it of me. Only by His Spirit can I make my flesh obey, the flesh profits nothing.
Whatever is in the heart will be made manifest. If the Word is in the heart, it is the Word which hangs on us as fruit. If it is money, then it is gold one will wear. After many years of labor in the world, one is given a gold watch at retirement. When you reach full age with God, you are given His armor. The fruit is then seen by the world.
I don't really see that it is what we do, but why we do what we do.
Jesus came to us, died for us, to reconcile us back to God. If we don't return to God, would we have Him die in vain?  If you believe in Christ, his works should follow your belief. To believe is to act on it.
In His Love
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Dan on September 30, 2010, 08:45:47 AM
(23) …”Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” [Genesis 15:6] … (24) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 So then, how can anyone continue to put forth the teaching that it is by faith "alone?"  As many of you are wont to say, that is a contradiction.  So when you say I must deal with scripture, so must you.

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Stephanie on September 30, 2010, 12:55:18 PM
(23) …”Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” [Genesis 15:6] … (24) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 So then, how can anyone continue to put forth the teaching that it is by faith "alone?"  As many of you are wont to say, that is a contradiction.  So when you say I must deal with scripture, so must you.



 Well, I don't know. But maybe it means that you can't just sit back and depend on faith, you have to get up and work. At least that seems to be the gist of it. That the case of Abraham proves that the justifying faith is by our works?

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Granny on September 30, 2010, 06:57:13 PM

 Well, I don't know. But maybe it means that you can't just sit back and depend on faith, you have to get up and work. At least that seems to be the gist of it. That the case of Abraham proves that the justifying faith is by our works?


 That's not right. You do sit back and depend on faith, because there is nothing that you can do to get saved. It all has to be done by Christ.  Look at the context.

 James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The body without the spirit is equated to faith without works. The Spirit is of works, not the body.

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Fred on October 01, 2010, 07:33:54 AM
Why can't reformed people just accept the plain literal rendering of the text when it doesn't say what they want. Clearly the text says in verse 24,

James 2:24
"You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only."
-BIBE

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. So this denial of works is not biblical, it is a reformed destroying of the words written there.


Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Diane Moody on October 04, 2010, 09:12:57 PM
So then, how can anyone continue to put forth the teaching that it is by faith "alone?"  As many of you are wont to say, that is a contradiction.  So when you say I must deal with scripture, so must you.

 We do. It means that if you are not in Christ, you have dead faith. Faith without the living part. Death in the Bible is often used to illustrate "separation" from God, and that is what faith without the work of Christ is. 

Faith is to works, what the Spirit is to the body. Thus without the faith of Christ, there is no work of life from us.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Nikki on October 05, 2010, 02:04:42 AM
If we are saved by Grace alone, what does it mean that faith without works is dead?

 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 20-21

Doesn't this say Abraham was justified by works?



Yeah. But not his works, but the work of Christ in him. We know that we cannot be justified by our own works, because that would contradict the word of God.

Real Christianity isn't about the merit of our works, but of Christ's. Faith without works means you aren't living your faith. If you are truly saved, you should be living your faith and thus Christ's works will show in you.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: ray on March 31, 2012, 09:24:46 PM
(23) …”Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” [Genesis 15:6] … (24) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 So then, how can anyone continue to put forth the teaching that it is by faith "alone?"  As many of you are wont to say, that is a contradiction.  So when you say I must deal with scripture, so must you.

Romans 4:4-5
                       Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace , but of debt.
                       But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
                        his faith is counted for righteousness.


Dan , there is no contradiction , justification is by faith alone , the faith of Christ. Or again , as Paul states in Romans 3:30;

                       Seeing it is one God , which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision
                       through faith.

What Paul is saying is that regardless of which covenant the elect were under , all are justified by faith. Justification was what Christ finished for the elect on the cross, it is not progressive , ie , by our works, but it is completed by the work of Christ. I believe that where a lot of confusion regarding the passage  from James 2 comes from is that it is addressing sanctification , and not justification. James is saying that having been justified , works will follow. If James is arguing that justification is by faith and works , then this is contradictory to the arguments that Paul has made in Romans. The faith of Christ that justifies us is also the same faith that will produce works, and therefore , where there are no works , there is no faith .
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: JohnDunningUK on April 01, 2012, 02:30:33 AM
Why can't reformed people just accept the plain literal rendering of the text when it doesn't say what they want. Clearly the text says in verse 24,

James 2:24
"You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only."
-BIBE

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. So this denial of works is not biblical, it is a reformed destroying of the words written there.

I think the question really is; if you have genuinely read through what has actually been written on this thread, and taken the Scriptures to heart, how on earth can you make such a ridiculous statement? The time and effort Tony has given highlights precisely how these Scriptures are reconciled with one another. Are you really so ignorant as to believe that God would say one thing through His Word in one place, then completely contradict Himself in another?

No-one has denied works are necessary to be justified, nor has anyone suggested that blind faith justifies us. What has been said seemingly over and over again, is that it is the works of another that justify us, namely Christ. It is His completed work alone that justifies those who believe, and those who believe do so because it is His Spirit working through the Christian, that the believer actually possesses the faith OF Christ, and THAT faith alone saves eternally, for it is the gift of God that none may boast.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Clifford Grodin on April 22, 2012, 08:33:52 AM
But, the text does say that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. That seems to me to require work, and not just faith. Isn't that what it clearly says?

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: ray on April 23, 2012, 07:24:22 AM
But, the text does say that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. That seems to me to require work, and not just faith. Isn't that what it clearly says?



Clifford, I'm assuming that the text in question is from James 2;24

                    Ye see then how by works a man is justified , and not by faith only.


If the Apostle Paul writes about justification by faith alone , and the Apostle James writes about justification by faith and works , then what we have is a major dilemna, for both cannot be right . Christ is not the author of two divergent gospels , and neither does the bible teach that there are two gospels, but one gospel , the gospel of justification by faith.
This is amply demonstrated in many passages , but this from Romans 5:18-19 forthrightly contends that justification and the declaration of righteousness is through Christ alone.

                        Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so
                        by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
                        For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners , so by the obedience of one shall
                        many be made righteous.

As we can see , our righteous standing before God is through Christ , and not by any of our works. So if Paul is saying that salvation is by faith alone , then what is James saying?I believe that 2:18 holds the key to understanding this passage , and indeed , the whole passage needs to be considered in context.

 James 2:18
                          Yea , a man may say , thou hast faith , and I have works, show me thy faith without thy works , and
                          I will show thee my faith by my works.

I believe that what James is saying here is that the faith which saves , will also produce works, the two cannot be separated, works are an imperative that follow justification . Some might ask what kind of works, and the text cannot be clearer, obedience.

                 James 2:21-22
                                   Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac , his son upon
                                   the altar.
                                   Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.

So a faith without works is not a saving faith , but a faith that produces works is evidence of saving faith , the faith of Christ.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Clifford Grodin on May 13, 2012, 04:49:01 PM
I'm getting two different answers here. Some say we are saved by works, but it is the work of Christ. But you say I am saved by my own works, but works that are produced by the faith of Christ. Which is correct?
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: JohnDunningUK on May 13, 2012, 09:41:53 PM
But, the text does say that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. That seems to me to require work, and not just faith. Isn't that what it clearly says?

Hi Clifford,

It seems to me that an important thing to remember is that the Word of God does not contradict itself. Therefore the passage that you quoted from James does not simply overthrow passages such as:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)


16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:16 (KJV)


If we are not justified by the works of the Law, what work can we offer that does justify us before God? If we're not justified by the Law given to Israel under Moses, what works of God can we offer that will justify us in His sight? When Jesus was asked this question, He replied:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:28-29 (KJV)


You may well say that even that belief, if it is from us, then surely that is a work that we have provided. Therefore we are saved because of our own works, right? And in a way I would agree with you, but what I would point out is that, although that faith arose from within us, it most certainly did not come from our flesh. Rather both faith and repentance are given as gracious gifts by God to the elect, according to His own will. For unless He initiated the process by giving those gifts, none should be saved. This is why regeneration must precede faith and repentance, for it relies solely on the will of God.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 5:31 (KJV)


24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2 Tim 2:24-25 (KJV)


8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:7-9 (KJV)


44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:43-45 (KJV)


The bottom line is that we are justified by the completed works of Christ on our behalf, and nothing of our own. Even that which could be said to have come from us, namely faith and repentance, is actually given to us as a gift of God's grace, in order that we may come to Christ in the first place.

As Ray pointed out previously, it's out of this place of justification that flow our works in Christ, which truly are evidence that points to an inward change. However it is not those works that justify us before God, but rather they are the very works that He has prepared for us to walk in.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:10 (KJV)


It's all about Him Clifford, and not about us.

God bless,

John

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Clifford Grodin on May 14, 2012, 12:35:33 AM
But the question remains. Is it our works through faith as some have said, or the the work of Christ through us? I just want a straight answer. It's one or the other, as they are not the same.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on May 14, 2012, 04:13:14 AM
>>>
But the question remains. Is it our works through faith as some have said, or the the work of Christ through us? I just want a straight answer. It's one or the other, as they are not the same.
<<<

A simple question deserves a simple answer...

     ...and then expounded upon. ;)

The answer is, it is the work of Christ through us. It is not our work in any sense of the word, it is Christ in us that wills, works, does, moves, everything. We can take credit for nothing. Hear what God declares through the Apostle Paul on the exact same subject:

1st Corinthians 15:9-10

Clearly the Apostle Paul understood that all of his labors or work which he did, which in his own words was considerable, was not his work, but Christ working within Him. So you have your answer. The answer is, it is not our works through faith, it is the work of Christ through us. We are earthen vessels used of God unto good works.

Romans 7:18

In other words, without Christ giving you the will, and then the power, and then moving you to work, there would be no good works from anyone. At least good works wherein is of faith.

Philippians 2:13

The word Do is the same word work. IE, it is God within you that gives you the will and the work. What part of any of these verses would lead us to believe the good works are our own?

It is not "our works" through faith, it is "His works" of faith in  us. If not, the Apostle Paul wouldn't deny it was Him, and declare unambiguously, it was Christ that worked in him to will and do/work.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: John on May 14, 2012, 09:19:24 PM

There is a bit of confusion, I think, in the reformed house surrounding the idea of justification by faith. You can read much in reformed writing about how faith is from God as a gift. Then in the next sentence read that a man's faith is not from God because God doesn't believe for us. We have to grasp Christ by or through our faith.

When the reformed churches speak of justification by faith alone it appears to me that they muddy the waters, trying to have it both ways - God and man. There is implied on the one hand that we are justified by our faith but then is added: the meaning of faith alone is "by Christ alone".

The reformed position is that "when a man by faith lays hold of Jesus Christ and His merits" then "God imputes that person's guilt ... upon Christ ... and Christ's righteousness to that sinner." Laying hold of Christ is a work we do, they say, apart from which we cannot be saved. 

That is, a person must have "saving faith" first, and that is obtained by gaining knowledge. How much knowledge is required to arrive at "saving faith" is usually subjective and murky, especially if we turn to babies saved in the womb (like John the Baptist).

The timeline according to reformed teaching is:
1. Obtain knowledge of Christ
2. Trust/Belief in the teachings (i.e., receiving, looking to, or coming to Christ)
3. Demonstrating saving faith (securing eternal life)
4. Repentance
5. Imputation of Righteousness
6. Justified by means of or through faith

There is always the undercurrent in reformed writings that salvation, justification, repentance, regeneration are given by God by His grace and mercy, and yet -- faith is in the domain of the person's being apart from God.

Summing up the reformed position:
No one is saved because of their faith.
No one is justified because of their faith.
God gives faith as a gift.
It is by God's grace in regeneration that a person believes.
Once given faith the person believes and embraces Christ.
It is man's faith and of the person alone, not of God.
Because he believed God declares an objective verdict of justified.
A person's faith is the means to be justified.

Do you agree?

john
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Clifford Grodin on May 15, 2012, 06:24:51 AM

Do you agree?

john

 I agree, but it is more than the Reformed who think that way. Isn't that just another form of Grace plus Works? I mean when you get right down to it, aren't they really adding their own works to grace? Even though they would deny it?
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: John on May 15, 2012, 09:31:04 PM
Quote
I mean when you get right down to it, aren't they really adding their own works to grace? Even though they would deny it?

It is a razor's edge. They have God giving/doing everything to include working faith in the individual that believes - except they envision that faith to be wholly from the individual and not from God, and yet still partly from God. Confusion.

If there is any point in salvation that depends upon man's prerogative to believe or act, then it is not grace but works - which they rightly reject. But still require individual faith for God to declare an individual just.

The question then is justification by our faith or by the faithfulness of Christ worked out in us?

john
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Reggie Matthews on May 26, 2012, 07:30:05 AM

The question then is justification by our faith or by the faithfulness of Christ worked out in us?

john

Would You then say that people who don't fully understand that it is Christ in us are ignorant because of being ordained to be without the spirit, or because it hasn't been given them yet, or this knowledge is not really necessary?
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: John on May 26, 2012, 03:43:48 PM
Quote
Would You then say that people who don't fully understand that it is Christ in us are ignorant because of being ordained to be without the spirit

There are those who don't understand because they believe their Bible teacher/pastor and don't bother to check things out. And there are people who don't care and are biased to have their faith be the center-piece of their own salvation.

Our faith is not the cause of our justification before God. What can a sinner do to be declared righteous before a thrice holy God? Obviously nothing.

So it must be that our faith is not important in this aspect but rather the faithfulness of Christ, i.e., the faith of Christ (Gal 2:16). 

We have faith IN Christ because of the Spirit of Christ dwells in the believer - that is, without Christ in us we would be faithless.

The confusion, I believe, is when the personal faith of believers, such as Abraham, are given weight as the CAUSE of their justification. Abraham's life of faith (leaving his homeland and obeying God) is not grounds for his justification before God. It is grounds for declaring HIM as a righteous man who loved God.

To clarify: There is justification/righteousness accounted before God, before men, and before yourself. Abraham's life of believing God was counted to him, and if we are like Abraham by faith, then we are the same: the children of Abraham. Our life of faith is not the cause of our imputed (placed to our account) righteousness. The judicial act of declaring us justified is between the Godhead and is not subjective upon us. Because we are justified before God (on the basis of Christ's faithfulness in redeeming His elect) we then receive the imparted (bestowed) righteousness of Christ as a free gift in the new creation.

Because we have received the imparted righteousness of Christ in salvation we are empowered to walk by faith. Faith is part of the new creation and is therefore an "effect" not a "cause.

Quote
...or because it hasn't been given them yet, or this knowledge is not really necessary?

Knowledge is not necessary for the Godhead to judicially impute Christ's righteousness to the elect. But when imparted, the regenerate person possesses the "spirit of faith" (2Cor 4:13) that gifted power enables belief in the truth of Scripture. If anyone doesn't have Christ's Spirit then they are none of His and if these people assign faith anywhere it will be to themselves (secular-mindset) and their own faith.

john
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: JohnDunningUK on May 26, 2012, 11:21:58 PM
I don't know if anyone here knows something of Biblical Greek, but is there anything key in the construct of the text that points to the translation being the "faith of Christ", rather than "faith in Christ"? For arguments sake it means the same thing to me personally, for I believe the faith I have found that allows me to believe upon Christ is a gift from God, as mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9. However if there is something specific in the text itself, it would be useful to me, especially in some ongoing discussions I've been having with a few people who are of a more Arminian leaning.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: John on May 27, 2012, 11:17:58 AM

First read through Tony's study:  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml)
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: JohnDunningUK on May 27, 2012, 06:29:27 PM


First read through Tony's study:  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml)

Thanks John, I'll have a read through it. I did come across a short article online shortly after my post actually, which seemed to be pointing me in the right direction anyway. :) http://undeception.com/pistis-iesou-christou/
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Fred on October 19, 2013, 12:51:16 AM
I still do not understand why one would believe that works is not critical in faith? Because it says so in the book of James quite clearly.

 James 2:20
    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 
 James 2:26
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I've read the posts, I've heard the excuses, but I don't get reformed theology. I believe that we have free will, but God still receives all the glory.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Melanie on March 14, 2018, 02:08:18 PM
I still do not understand why one would believe that works is not critical in faith?

Because you and all Free Will advocates have it backwards. It's that faith is critical to works, not the other way around. Without the faith of Christ, all your works are worthless before God. That's why.


Quote
James 2:20
    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 

It's dead because the faith underpinning it is not saving faith. Saving faith is of the faithfulness of Christ, not our own.

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Joe Johnson on March 20, 2018, 12:05:35 AM
I still do not understand why one would believe that works is not critical in faith?

Because you and all Free Will advocates have it backwards. It's that faith is critical to works, not the other way around. Without the faith of Christ, all your works are worthless before God. That's why.

Easy believism in a nutshell. The liberals philosophy of life, to do nothing in order to gain everything. They don't understand that nothing is free. This is what the denial of free will will get you. Liberal Christian ideas that we are robots.

You think you are right but the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone. Are you aware of that. Moreover, the phrase "faith alone" occurs only once, and that is in the book of James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. So by your own recognition of authority of scripture you keep talking about,  why do you Calvinists say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? 
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Melanie on March 20, 2018, 03:41:46 AM
Easy believism in a nutshell.

Joe,
  The bible teaches the security of salvation as a biblical fact. This is not based on our opinion as the doctrine of free will is, but is based on the finished work of salvation in Christ. If that's true, there is no work that can be added to it to effect its everlasting efficacy.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Rick Reeves on March 21, 2018, 01:00:45 AM
Joe, How do we give the poor Christian assurance on the day of judgment if we are saved by works and all our works are as filthy rags before God.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Scotty on March 21, 2018, 03:28:08 AM
Easy believism in a nutshell.

What is easy believism?  :-\
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Pilgrim on March 21, 2018, 09:09:28 AM
“Easy-believism” is a doctrine that basically teaches that anyone who calls upon the name of the lord is saved and cannot be lost. This doctrine is entirely false with no basis in Scripture. Some Dispensationalists attempt to attach this title to the Reformed doctrine of “Perseverance of the saints,” which is an entirely different doctrine fully supported by Scripture.

In fact the easy believism doctrine is actually more connected with Dispensationalism's free will, which is a teaching that serves as a foundational theological support for it. Because according to classic Dispensationalism, the gospel that Christ proclaimed was a gospel for the ethnic Jews alone. This is the teaching that Christ promised earthly rewards in the Jewish millennial Kingdom for their works of submitting to and following Christ. Classic Dispensationalism teaches that this “gospel of the Kingdom” is categorically different from the Gospel of salvation by grace for gentiles. They claim the apostle Paul later proclaimed this grace doctrine. However, none of this is true.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Erik Diamond on March 21, 2018, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: Pilgrim
“Easy-believism” is a doctrine that basically teaches that anyone who calls upon the name of the lord is saved and cannot be lost. This doctrine is entirely false with no basis in Scripture.

Agreed. There are many carnal people who "came to the altar" and "pray a sinner prayer" where they have "made a decision" or "accept Christ" may not genuinely be saved. This is the easy way for anyone to do without true repentance or conversion. It is called "easy believism."  The true salvation is when we are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers, Romans 8:5–8. These are also the people God talked about in Revelation 9:6. 

This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith," 2 Corinthians 13:5.
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Rose on March 23, 2018, 04:57:24 AM
So you don't believe in the carnal Christian, someone who still has sin but is saved?
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Jon Thomas on March 23, 2018, 07:46:16 AM
Quote
First read through Tony's study:  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith_of_christ_or_faith_in_christ.shtml)

Wow! This was a absolutely excellent article and gave me a lot of understanding of the original Greek and why it is faith of Christ. The Things I learn here I have never had explained to me before and I am very grateful. God is good.

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: George on March 23, 2018, 11:42:59 AM
Jon,
You think that because you've been sucked into Tony Warren's world of the error of Reformed Theology, which is not only erroneous but dangerous. This doctrine claims that Christ did not make people redeemable, he actually redeemed a people, and none of them can be lost. That's not a true statement, and let's check the bible on that.

John 1:29 
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world".

If he took away the sins of the world, and some of the world can be lost, then the Reformed belief is untrue.

John 3:17 
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved".

The same with this bible verse. It makes all redeemed, instead of making it possible that all could be redeemed.

1 John 2:2 
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world".

This doesn't say that Christ did not make all people redeemable as Tony says, it says Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. So he did make all people redeemable. The difference on who is redeemed is free will.

Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on March 28, 2018, 03:21:03 AM
>>>
So you don't believe in the carnal Christian, someone who still has sin but is saved?
<<<

To quote the apostle Paul, God Forbid!

We all still sin in the flesh, but we don't all still live in sin while claiming it is excused by grace. There is no such thing as a "Carnal Christian" because such corruption of the "New Spiritual Man" theology is at enmity with God's word. Mankind is either Carnal or he is Spiritual, never both. He may sin, but he cannot live in sin because he was born from above.

Romans 8:7-8

They that are still in the flesh are un-renewed, un-redeemed, un-regenerated sinners wherein it is impossible to be pleasing to God. We are either Carnal or Christian, and either of the flesh or of the Spirit, but not both. Being a Carnal Christian is like saying we are the living-dead. It doesn't make sense "as far as being a Christian."

Search: The Carnal Christian (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?Carnal%20Christian)

The whole genesis of the doctrine of the "Carnal Christian" seems to me to be an invention of man in order to excuse continuing in sin. It's nothing more than a  justification and pardon of Christians for continuing to live in the flesh while holding on to the idea that they are still regenerated Christians. i.e., living like Hell but claiming citizenship in the kingdom of heaven. This idea of mixing carnality and Christianity is at the root of what God addressed through the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 6:

Romans 6:1-2

How are we made dead to sin through regeneration and still living in sin? In other words, you cannot in truth claim that you are a Christian and yet continue in sin "as if" grace will wink at your friendship with the world. Grace is not a Panacea or universal cure-all that justifies our continuing to live a life of sin. Our works on this earth "evidence" our true nature. Or to put it another way, we know what we are by the fruit (Matthew 7:16) that we produce. Do people gather grapes from thorns, or do they gather figs from thistles? The honest answer is no. So may we continue in sin because grace is abundant? Not if we are "really" born of the Spirit. Indeed, this passage illustrates it is a total perversion of the doctrine of Grace to claim Carnal Christianity or to justify living in sin because grace is abundant.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Tony Warren on March 28, 2018, 04:43:12 AM
>>>
Jon,
You think that because you've been sucked into Tony Warren's world of the error of Reformed Theology, which is not only erroneous but dangerous.
<<<

Biblical doctrines are only dangerous to free will proponents, and that because it is the righteous word of God and at enmity with the humanistic teachings of free will. Biblical doctrine is contrary to ideas that man can by his own free will come to Christ without being dragged kicking and screaming by the Lord Himself. A denial of this is indeed dangerous "because" God says judgment await those who disobey His word and deny its truth.

John 6:44

That word translated draw literally is more pronounced and means dragged! So is your response to that,"wrong God I can come to Christ by my own free will?"  You would contradict God if that is your position. Belief of the truth is not by free will, it's by the grace of God, the will of God to open your eyes and to open your ears to truth. What part of that did you have?

John 6:64-65

You can't come by your own free will "because" God says so. Do not glory in your own free will to come to Christ when those other sinners didn't, instead give all glory to God and understand that it is not by the will of man but the will of God.


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This doctrine claims that Christ did not make people redeemable, he actually redeemed a people, and none of them can be lost. That's not a true statement,
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Actually it is a true statement, for if Christ "had" in fact only made people redeemable without actually redeeming them, then Christ didn't actually PAY for anyone's sins on the cross, which is a idea that is antithetical and mutually incompatible to what is written. And if He actually did pay for our sins, then we are unblamable, having no sin that incurs blame. Thus we give glory to God that what you say is not true, and that by that effectual payment for all our sins we are sealed (secured) by God and have blessed assurance of Salvation.

Galatians 3:13
Revelation 5:9

So, according to God's infallible word, we were not possibly redeemed, we actually were redeemed by the blood of Christ. Redemption by Christ is never in vain. Moreover, as far as none of us being lost, that's the essence of eternal salvation. A Spirit of God that secures or seals us unto the day of redemption can't be a mere possibility. It either did or it didn't. We are either totally secure in Christ, else we are of all men most foolish thinking we are saved by maintaining our own good works. Something which (without Christ's redemption) we could never do.

John 17:12

The only one lost was he who was washed in water but never cleansed (John 13:10) from sin, among the 12, but never saved. He never had his sins paid for by Christ's cross, and was never predestinated unto salvation to begin with.


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John 1:29
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world".

If he took away the sins of the world, and some of the world can be lost, then the Reformed belief is untrue.
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You misunderstand that passage. Christ took away the sins of the world in that all the sins of the world that are taken away are removed by Christ. i.e., there is no other name whereby anyone in the world may have their sins taken away, except Christ. He alone takes away the sins of the world.

Acts 4:12

Everyone in the world who has their sins taken away, has it taken away by Christ. Moreover, if John 1:29 was to be understood the way you claim it should, then you contradict yourself. Since you've already said He didn't redeem everyone in the world, he only made it possible that everyone could be redeemed. But if He took away the sins of everyone in the world, then NO ONE has any sin, meaning all "had been" redeemed. You can't have it both ways where all sin is forgiven and yet some  are judged because they have sin unforgiven. He either took away all the sins of everyone in the world or He didn't. He is the one who took away all the sins of the world, but not the sins of everyone in the world. Obviously, since many in the world never had their sins taken away.


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John 3:17
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved".

The same with this bible verse. It makes all redeemed, instead of making it possible that all could be redeemed.
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If it made all redeemed, then who is left unredeemed? Moreover, AGAIN it sounds like you're saying the opposite of what you previously said. Maybe I'm not reading you correctly but "all" are not redeemed because clearly the word of God teaches that many are to remain unsaved, never having been saved or having their sins forgiven. Christ's action on the cross did not make it possible that all could be redeemed, it redeemed all for whom He died. The only question is, all of who? Is it all of God's people in the world throughout time, or is it every single person in the world? If all people in the world then it makes no sense because all in the world were (and are) not redeemed. thus by any normal idiom, the all redeemed are all of "God's people" in the world, and not all people in the world. The world means anyone in the world NOT EVERYONE in the world. i.e., through Christ not only Jews but Greek, Roman, Ethiopian, Russian, anyone in the world can be saved. This is a new dispensation of the New Testament where Salvation has gone to the whole world, not just Jews.

John 17:9

Christ didn't pray for the whole world, but ONLY for those of the world who God had chosen and given to Him. The Election, and the rest were blinded. Christ doesn't pray for everyone in the world because He does not pray in vain. He knows the world is not saved, never been redeemed, nor did He make it possible they would be redeemed. He prayed for those He (being all knowing) knows would be redeemed, namely His chosen people.


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1 John 2:2
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world".

This doesn't say that Christ did not make all people redeemable as Tony says, it says Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
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Indeed it does, because if He was the propitiation for the sins of all people in the world, then no one in the world has any sin, meaning they are all saved. That's totally unbiblical. The word propitiation there means "atonement" and it goes without saying (or should) that if Christ had atoned for the sins of all in the world, then none in the world would have sins. The  Apostle is saying not only for our (the Jews) only, but for the whole world. Q.E.D., He was not the propitiation for every single person in the world, but every single person in the world who had their sins atoned for, it was done by Christ. There is none other name whereby it could happen.

Matthew 1:21

Because He will save all people from their sijns? No, that He would save His people. And His people are those of the whole world, not just Israel.


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So he did make all people redeemable.
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And how did He make all people redeemable? By paying for their sins? That doesn't make anyone redeemable, that is redemption. Where does the Bible say Christ went to the cross only to make people redeemable? It doesn't say that, man's tradition may say that or imply God said it, but it's not true. This is what the authority of the word actually says Christ did by His cross.

Colossians 2:13-14

Romans 8:2

Free from sin, not made it possible you might be, it actually made us who were dead in sin, free from the law of sin. That means now, no condemnation.


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The difference on who is redeemed is free will.
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There's no chapter and verse for that theory because it's a myth. In truth, the actual difference on who is redeemed is not free will, it is the will of God. It's never by our free will, grace is all about the unmerited favor of God, which is by His will not ours. But don't take my word for it.

John 1:13

Can't get much clearer than that. Our being born of the spirit (saved) is not by our own free will, but by His will. You'll note God specifically says it is NOT by the will of man, totally contradicting your doctrine that it is. As always, the question boils down to who is our authority on doctrine. Is it the words of men, or the infallible word of God?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Faith Without Works is Dead
Post by: Jon Thomas on April 01, 2018, 09:37:54 AM
Jon,
You think that because you've been sucked into Tony Warren's world of the error of Reformed Theology, which is not only erroneous but dangerous.

No, I think that because I read it in the Bible. The dangerous doctrines are ones that I don't read in the bible.