The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Drew on November 18, 2003, 11:13:50 AM

Title: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Drew on November 18, 2003, 11:13:50 AM
 Exodus 24:9 "Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness."

Here we see that Moses and his apostles saw God standing. But then we read.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

If there are no contradictions, as I'm often told here, then what am I reading here?
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: terryf on November 18, 2003, 01:11:12 PM
Drew,
The word "God" in Ex 24:9 is "Elohim" which happens to mean diety (plural) or more appropriately "Gods", where as the translation of "God" from any greek scripture refers to "YHWH" the name of the one true and most high God of the Universe. So this happens not to be a contradiction but rather indicates a change of culture and/or language.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Layla on November 18, 2003, 07:04:03 PM
Greetings Drew

If you look at the various scriptures within the NT that contain the translated word "seen" you will note that various Greek words are translated as "seen."  The particular Greek word for "seen" used in John 1:18 is different from the word that is used in the NT when speaking of viewing or perceiving with the natural "EYES".  I think something deeper is being said here because of the remainder of the scripture that states Jesus hath "declared" Him.  Therefore, I do not believe John is speaking of "seeing" God with the natural eye, but rather speaking of revealing the nature of God, which of course only Jesus Christ has accomplished.  

Peace,
Layla
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: judykanova on November 19, 2003, 01:34:03 AM
The passage in Ex 24:10 sounds like a vision these men were given on the mount of Sinai,  comparable to the visions of John on the island of Patmos in Revelations, and Ezekiel’s visions of God’s glory in Ezek chapter 1, all depicting some aspect of God's glory.

Ex 24:10-12
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. ...
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Ezek 1:1, 26-28
1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even bdownward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; ...
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

These men in all the above accounts -- (whether in a vision or in actuality matters little), were shown some aspects of God’s glory/presence.   Not unlike the 'cloud by day' and the 'pillar of fire by night' that accompanied the Isrealites from their exodus out of Egypt (Ex 13:21-22).

In any event,  no one has seen God in his full essence/glory.  Consider what the Bible teaches as a whole, particularly in this passage where Moses was allowed probably the  most ‘glimpse’ of God’s glory – for Moses, a mere man, was incapable of enduring more:

Ex 33:18-23
18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he (God) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.  …
Ex 34:28-30
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

So this is in perfect keeping with what Christ said in John 1:18 – that "No man hath seen God at any time…”.   What these men 'saw' (or experienced) instead was some small aspect of God's glory.  

judy

Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: andreas on November 19, 2003, 02:07:34 AM
<<<John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.">>>
Christ has declared him---------------------Told out, revealed, unveiled, displayed the Father,and the one who has done this is the only begotten, which is in the bosom of the Father,the bosom speaking of personal intimacy with the Father.In becoming flesh He did not leave that inseperable union.It is not the Son that was ,but is, at the bosom of the Father.Consider 1 Kings 8:12 and Ps.97:2.They tell us that God was not revealed,but in 1 Peter 2:9 and 1 John 1:5,7 we see that God is now revealed,declared by Christ.
andreas 8)
 
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Tony Warren on November 19, 2003, 08:05:34 AM
>>>
The passage in Ex 24:10 sounds like a vision these men were given on the mount of Sinai,  comparable to the visions of John on the island of Patmos in Revelations, and Ezekiel’s visions of God’s glory in Ezek chapter 1, all depicting some aspect of God's glory.

So this is in perfect keeping with what Christ said in John 1:18 – that "No man hath seen God at any time…”.   What these men 'saw' (or experienced) instead was some small aspect of God's glory.  

judy
<<<

This is on the right track Judy. In the Old Testament, often God would manifest Himself in the form of men. This was not the incarnate God (Christ), but a manifestation or "appearance" of God as a man. In theological terms, this is called a theophany. You're right of course, there certainly is no contradiction here.

A good example of this is when God's servant Jacob wrestled with God until the breaking of the day, and God changed his name to Israel.

Genesis 32:30

There is a difference between seeing a manifestation of God, and God in the flesh (Christ), and the full Glory of God. These are three diverse things. We can only see God face to face in a manifestation or appearance of Him "like unto" a man. Though we know that God was not a man as He appeared unto them. And your example of Moses on the mountain is right on the mark.

Exodus 33:18-20

Moses was hidden from the glory of God because no one can see the actual face of God and live, and even being hidden from it, still his face shown like the sun so that the people were afraid of him.

And so it is quote understandable that God would have to manifest himself to man as a theophany, because (as He Himself has declared) no man can see Him and live.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Tony Warren on November 19, 2003, 08:24:38 AM
>>>
Here we see that Moses and his apostles saw God standing. But then we read.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

If there are no contradictions, as I'm often told here, then what am I reading here?  
<<<

If I have a picture of my uncle, and show it to you, you could rightfully say that you have seen my uncle. But on the other hand, I can also say that you have never seen my Uncle, you've only seen the "appearance" or "representation" of Him. It's really the same principle at work here.

Ezekiel 1:28

i.e., this wasn't the Glory of God, it was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: judykanova on November 19, 2003, 10:53:11 AM
Quote
This is on the right track Judy. In the Old Testament, often God would manifest Himself in the form of men. This was not the incarnate God (Christ), but a manifestation or "appearance" of God as a man. In theological terms, this is called a theophany. You're right of course, there certainly is no conntradiction here. ...

There is a difference between seeing a manifestation of God, and God in the flesh (Christ), and the full Glory of God. These are three diverse things. We can only see God face to face in a manifestation or appearance of Him "like unto" a man. Though we know that God was not a man as He appeared unto them.


Thanks so much Tony for clearing this up in my mind -- by explaining & demonstrating these 3 aspects of God's 'appearances' so succinctly with the use of Scripture and theological terms.

I also noticed, but didn't comment earlier, on a curious dichotomy between the account of God's appearance to the Israelites in general, versus His close encounter with Moses.  In one instance, God did not  'lay his hand' upon the Israelites, and they did "eat and drink", whereas Moses was called within the "midst of the cloud" where God was,  did neither "eat bread, nor drink water"

Ex 24:10-11
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

versus

Ex 24:16-17
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel....
Ex 34:28-30
28 And he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.

It would seem that of this type of encounter, there are also 'degrees' depending on whether God ' lays hand' on the person,  and/or whether the person is called within 'the midst' of God's presence.  In the latter example, Moses is fully sustained and has no need of food nor drink... not even water for 40 days & nights which under normal circumstances is not possible.  I don't quite know what to make of this, other than this possibly being a picture of God's sustaining power of those indwelt by His Holy Spirit --  and that His Grace is indeed sufficient !??

judy
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: GoldRush on November 19, 2003, 01:37:52 PM
Judy,

It would seem that of this type of encounter, there are also 'degrees' depending on whether God ' lays hand' on the person,  and/or whether the person is called within 'the midst' of God's presence.  In the latter example, Moses is fully sustained and has no need of food nor drink... not even water for 40 days & nights which under normal circumstances is not possible.  I don't quite know what to make of this, other than this possibly being a picture of God's sustaining power of those indwelt by His Holy Spirit --  and that His Grace is indeed sufficient !??


Interesting . . .something neither of us ever gave thought to before.

Since this recent subject has been on our minds a lot . . .

We are wondering if this is perhaps another example of the difference between the external covenant peoples and those under the spiritual Covenant of God.

The temporal covenant represented by outward activities i.e. "eating and drinking," but the eternal Covenant represented by Moses who was fully sustained by the Spirit of God?

???

J&R



Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: da525382 on October 12, 2009, 11:45:40 PM
I saw these verses on an arminian website presented to show that man must seek God first.  Do you think they contradict the scripture that is always quoted that there is NONE that seeks God (Romans 3:11)?


2Ch 15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2Ch 17:3-4 - And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;  But sought to the [LORD] God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

2Ch 26:5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Jimmy on October 13, 2009, 01:34:29 AM
Jhn 15:16    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain:

Eph 1:4    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 2:1    And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Jhn 1:12        But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13        Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 3:11        There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Jhn 6:44        No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pretty clear isn't it.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: da525382 on October 13, 2009, 11:39:24 AM
Oh, yes, Jimmy, it is clear indeed, I am already well aware of all of these passages.  I am just wondering how they are used to argue back to an arminian who claims they cannot contradict those passages in 2nd Chronicles.  For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Jimmy on October 14, 2009, 11:52:34 PM
Oh, yes, Jimmy, it is clear indeed, I am already well aware of all of these passages.  I am just wondering how they are used to argue back to an arminian who claims they cannot contradict those passages in 2nd Chronicles.  For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.
I think that it could be said that those passages in 2nd Chronicles cannot contradict these verses either. So the matter comes down to interpretation of scripture. To come to truth there must be harmony. For there are no contradictions in the Bible. (maybe apparent contradictions).

Do they know the definition of hyperbole.

Hyperbole–noun Rhetoric.
1.   obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.   an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

What a low regard for the Word of God.
I think a lesson on "Sola Scriptura" would be well.
Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Tony Warren on October 15, 2009, 09:52:26 AM
>>>
2Ch 15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2Ch 17:3-4 - And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;  But sought to the [LORD] God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

2Ch 26:5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.
<<<

The real problem is, the Arminian seeks to read scripture in a vacuum, without any other input. But scripture taken out of the context of the whole Bible, is pretext. They tell you that we cannot contradict these scriptures, and they are right. But then they turn right around and seek to contradict scriptures that we present, by these same scriptures.

Psalms 10:4

The wicked are any unsaved people. There are NONE that seeketh after God. That is no hyperbole, that is the unadulterated truth. The truth of this matter is a found in our being a little more objective, unbiased and all-inclusive in dealing with scripture. Both their scriptures and our scriptures are correct, and neither to be denied or made null and void by the other.

So the question is not if they sought Him, or if they found Him, but why they sought Him and found Him when God says no man seeks after Him.

Romans 3:11-12

Just as we cannot contradict chronicles by claiming it is not true, they cannot negate Romans with some claim it is a hyperbole. Hyperbole is just another way of saying, "it's not really true." But the true Bible believer knows that both statements are unquestionably true. Thus the answer is that when they were in their trouble, God drew them to seek the God of Israel. This is the only Biblical solution that is consistent with all of scripture and is totally confirmed by comparing scripture with scripture. It is unquestionably confirmed of God in other parts of scripture. So harmonizing all parts of scripture, taking none out of context, ignoring none, and rejecting none, we have our answer.

John 6:44-45


There is none that seeketh after God, and there is no man that can come to the Lord, unless God draw them first! Then and only then will they begin to seek God, as they are taught of God to seek.

Thus, the so-called Arminian mystery is found to be no mystery at all. They did seek the Lord, "but" it was because God Himself drew them to seek, and be found of Him.


Quote
>>>
For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.
<<<

It's not really going to matter what argument you supply them with, because unless God lay it upon their hearts to receive truth, they will always come up with another reason why truth, written word for word in scripture, is incorrect. Whether hyperbole, the Greek translation, interpretation, social morays of the time, etc., etc. You can't argue someone into the truth, God has to reveal it to them Spiritually. You are only a witness, not a convincer. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

Jimmy's right..

Quote:

Do they know the definition of hyperbole.

Hyperbole–noun Rhetoric.
1.   obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.   an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

What a low regard for the Word of God.
I think a lesson on "Sola Scriptura" would be well.
Just my opinion.


There is none that seeketh after God" is NOT a hyperbole. It is a truth that is said many times, in many different ways in scripture.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: da525382 on October 16, 2009, 01:33:00 PM
Thank you, Tony, very much.  You know, it becomes tiring to hear them rely on the "hyperbole" argument...it seems that it doesn't matter what the topic is, the allegation sooner or later becomes "Well, you sure demonstrate your inability to know when scripture is hyperbole and when it is not....the Bible is full of hyperbole".  Then, at that point, the discussion necessariliy ends because there really is nothing more you can say, it seems.  I guess it all boils down to their interpretive scriptures of course have not an ounce of hyperbole, but everyone else's does.  So, I guess it's quite a feat to be able to have the advanced skills to cull through scripture and peel out only the non-hyperbolic ones to build their theology on.  So, what's left in their minds as far as relating to their classified "hyperbolic" scriptures???....Do they just see them as fillers?  As entertainment breaks??  I dunno...it's really impossible to engage this mentality, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Melanie on November 15, 2010, 06:03:08 AM

What about people who say the inscription written by Pilate is contradicted in the different gospels?

“Now there was also an inscription above Him, ‘THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—Luke 23:38

“Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, ‘JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—John 19:19

Can you answer that for me? Thanks.
Title: Alleged contradictions in the Bible
Post by: Walt on June 03, 2015, 05:28:08 AM
One of the issues that serves to sometimes impact our faith, especially if we are new in the faith, is the alleged contradictions in the scriptures.  For example, there are four gospel accounts of certain events and for some reason they seem to be inconsistent with each other at times.  However, as some have learned with growth in the Lord and more Bible study, seemingly different accounts are really two separate accounts, possibly separated by minutes, hours, days or months.

I have never found an alleged contradiction I could not resolve.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Walt on June 03, 2015, 10:40:59 AM
BTW, I have used a method of "weaving" scriptures together rather than "overlapping" to resolve all alleged contradictions. 

It seems that believers are able to do this because they are motivated to look for the resolution, while non-believers only look to attack God's Word, which is simply in their nature, and indeed, was in my own nature before I came to know the Lord.

And sometimes, it is also a matter of looking into the Hebrew, the Greek or to realize, for example with respect to Moses, that one cannot see God with their eyes, but could certainly have a vision in their mind of God, and hence the contradiction goes away.

Anyway, I have resolved many OT & NT alleged contradictions over the years like how many times did the rooster crow, was it one or two animals that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on, did Joseph and Mary return to Nazareth or go to Egypt after Jesus' birth, which day was Jesus' crucified on, etc.  Now some are easy to resolve, but others require reading scripture thoroughly and also looking elsewhere in the scriptures at other relevant facts.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Soldier on May 26, 2020, 11:54:57 AM
did Joseph and Mary return to Nazareth or go to Egypt after Jesus' birth,

I have to admit that I have also sometimes been stumped by this. It does seem to be a contradiction. I don't know the answer of how to resolve those verses, but I have faith to know that it isn't a contradiction. It only seems a contradiction.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Mark on May 26, 2020, 07:35:14 PM
did Joseph and Mary return to Nazareth or go to Egypt after Jesus' birth,

I have to admit that I have also sometimes been stumped by this. It does seem to be a contradiction. I don't know the answer of how to resolve those verses, but I have faith to know that it isn't a contradiction. It only seems a contradiction.

Correct there are no contradictions in scripture for God is not the author of confusion, the confusion or seemingly contradiction comes from our own incomplete understanding. If we follow what is written in God’s word carefully we will come to the right conclusions. For instance Christ returned to Nazareth after Mary’s days of purification and their appearance in the temple then they returned home, after that being warned in a dream they fled to Egypt.

Luk 2:22-24,39
22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

Confer with Matthews account who skips the story of the temple and addresses the departing wise man of the east and moves onto the warning from the Messenger to flee to Egypt.

Mat 2:13-15
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 ¶ When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The four gospel accounts don’t contain identical stories of every moment of Jesus’s life, some leave out parables (gospel of John), some only mention one lunatic cutting himself and abiding among the graves or raising of Jairus’s daughter etc. we have to compare with the Spirit of God as our help, as it is written He shall guide us in all truth (John 16:13). 
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Halle on May 28, 2020, 07:59:21 AM
Thank you Mark.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Soldier on May 30, 2020, 07:20:07 AM
Thank you Mark, that's very helpful.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Soldier on May 30, 2020, 08:17:25 AM

There is none that seeketh after God" is NOT a hyperbole. It is a truth that is said many times, in many different ways in scripture.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

You would think that everyone calling themselves Christian would then understand that it's impossible to come to God of your own free will. Especially since as you say, it's written time and again in many different ways. Another is " No man can come to me except the Father draw him. So if no one can come to him, and no one seeks after him, it would follow that no one has free will to be saved. And yet most Christians insist on this false doctrine of freely being able to come to him. That's what I can't figure out.
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Reformer on May 31, 2020, 02:36:39 AM
You would think that everyone calling themselves Christian would then understand that it's impossible to come to God of your own free will.

Correct. And you would think everyone calling themselves Christian would understand that the truth will set you free, not make you liberal. But they don't.

 You would think everyone calling themselves Christian would understand that God hates both the liar and judges those righteously who are deceived by the liar. But they don't. You would think everyone calling themselves Christian would understand that a tree is known by its fruits, that racism is an evil and adulterous thing, that Israel is who God says it is, that God hates divorce, iniquity, deceit, adultery, and immorality. You would think that anyone calling themselves Christian wouldn't back Trump, trample lawlessly on the constitution, praise Hitler as misunderstood, condone homosexuality, and excuse corruption. You would think that anyone calling themselves Christian would know that the work God gave to all of us to do is evangelism...

But they don't.

These people are spiritually brain dead where their minds are fundamentally unsound. And it's been that way n God's house since Cain killed his brother Abel. He wasn't cast out because his offering was of the field, he was cast out because his mind was fundamentally flawed so that he had murder in his heart. Just like these self-righteous professing brothers who profess themselves believers in truth.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

And He's coming again and brother will be against brother. In Christ the one shall be taken and the other left. Then everyone calling themselves Christian will understand that it's impossible to come to God by worldly works and self-righteous beliefs that they're saving the world by their spiritual decline


Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: George on May 31, 2020, 08:39:29 AM
Reformer,
      )offtopic(
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on May 31, 2020, 10:42:24 AM
Isn’t the Bible Full of Contradictions?
by Josh McDowell


It is truly amazing how often this question is asked. This question contains the assumption that the Bible is filled with many obvious discrepancies which, if true, would make it impossible to believe that the Bible has a divine origin. It is a popular idea to maintain that the Bible disagrees with itself, which casts considerable doubt on its trustworthiness.

If, indeed, the Bible does contain demonstrable errors, it would show that at least those parts could not have come from a perfect, all-knowing God. We do not argue with this conclusion, but we do disagree with the initial premise that the Scriptures are full of mistakes. It is very easy to accuse the Bible of inaccuracies, but it is quite another matter to prove it.

Certain passages at first glance appear to be contradictory, but further investigation will show that this is not the case.

One of the things for which we appeal with regard to possible contradictions is fairness. We should not minimize or exaggerate the problem, and we must always begin by giving the author the benefit of the doubt. This is the rule in other literature, and we ask that it also be the rule here. We find so often that people want to employ a different set of rules when it comes to examining the Bible, and to this we immediately object.

What constitutes a contradiction? The law of non-contradiction, which is the basis of all logical thinking, states that a thing cannot be both a and non-a at the same time. In other words, it cannot be both raining and not raining at the same time.

If one can demonstrate a violation of this principle from Scripture, then and only then can he prove a contradiction. For example, if the Bible said—which it does not—that Jesus died by crucifixion both at Jerusalem and at Nazareth at the same time, this would be a provable error.

When facing possible contradictions, it is of the highest importance to remember that two statements may differ from each other without being contradictory. Some fail to make a distinction between contradiction and difference.

For example, the case of the blind men at Jericho. Matthew relates how two blind men met Jesus, while both Mark and Luke mention only one. However, neither of these statement denies the other, but rather they are complementary.

Suppose you were talking to the mayor of your city and the chief of police at city hall. Later, you see your friend, Jim, and tell him you talked to the mayor today. An hour later, you see your friend, John, and tell him you talked to both the mayor and the chief of police.

When your friends compare notes, there is a seeming contradiction. But there is no contradiction. If you had told Jim that you talked only to the mayor, you would have contradicted that statement by what you told John.

The statements you actually made to Jim and John are different, but not contradictory. Likewise, many biblical statements fall into this category. Many think they find errors in passages that they have not correctly read.

In the Book of Judges we have the account of the death of Sisera. Judges 5:25–27 is supposed to represent Jael as having slain him with her hammer and tent peg while he was drinking milk. Judges 4:21 says she did it while he was asleep. However, a closer reading of Judges 5:25–27 will reveal that it is not stated that he was drinking milk at the moment of impact. Thus, the discrepancy disappears.

Sometimes two passages appear to be contradictory because the translation is not as accurate as it could be. A knowledge of the original languages of the Bible can immediately solve these difficulties, for both Greek and Hebrew—as all languages—have their peculiarities that make them difficult to render into English or any other language.

A classic example concerns the accounts of Paul’s conversion as recorded in the Book of Acts. Acts 9:7 (KJV) states, “The men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.” Acts 22:9 (KJV) reads, “And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.”

These statements seem contradictory, with one saying that Paul’s companions heard a voice, while the other account says that no voice was heard. However, a knowledge of Greek solves this difficulty. As the Greek scholar, W. F. Arndt, explains:

“The construction of the verb ‘to hear’ (akouo) is not the same in both accounts. In Acts 9:7 it is used with the genitive, in Acts 22:9 with the accusative. The construction with the genitive simply expresses that something is being heard or that certain sounds reach the ear; nothing is indicated as to whether a person understands what he hears or not.

“The construction with the accusative, however, describes a hearing which includes mental apprehension of the message spoken. From this it becomes evident that the two passages are not contradictory.

“Acts 22:9 does not deny that the associates of Paul heard certain sounds; it simply declares that they did not hear in such a way as to understand what was being said. Our English idiom in this case simply is not so expressive as the Greek” (Does the Bible Contradict Itself, pp. 13–14.)

It must also be stressed that when a possible explanation is given to a Bible difficulty, it is unreasonable to state that the passage contains a demonstrable error. Some difficulties in Scripture result from our inadequate knowledge about the circumstances, and do not necessarily involve an error. These only prove that we are ignorant of the background.

As historical and archaeological study proceed, new light is being shed on difficult portions of Scripture and many “errors” have disappeared with the new understanding. We need a wait-and-see attitude on some problems.

While all Bible difficulties and discrepancies have not yet been cleared up, it is our firm conviction that as more knowledge is gained of the Bible’s past, these problems will fade away. The biblical conception of God is an all-knowing, all-powerful being who does not contradict Himself, and so we feel that His Word, when properly understood, will not contradict itself.

 
Title: Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
Post by: Rich Aikers on May 31, 2020, 12:54:15 PM
 )Goodpoint(