The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Reformer on December 28, 2019, 02:30:26 AM

Title: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Reformer on December 28, 2019, 02:30:26 AM
Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?

...or are the false evangelicals, false Christians, false prophets, and false teachers just a symptom of an already fallen church? I talked with some Christians who deny that the church is growing apostate. They say it's just the ebb and flow that has always followed Christianity and I'm simply being dramatic. What do you guys think? On the poll, do you believe that Christians are starting to act just like the world and giving Christianity a bad name, or maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there?
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Joe Johnson on December 28, 2019, 03:00:55 AM

No, that's crazy. Are some Christians unfaithful? Yes, but that doesn't mean they are not living the name of Christ, no one is perfect. If I say anything, I would say Amillennialists give Christians a bad name more than anyone because they deny the truth of the covenant with Israel and make the wild claim that satan is bound. But overall, no, Christianity is vibrant and in this country growing now that we have a moral leader in the white house working against abortion and muslims.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Jeff on December 28, 2019, 04:48:26 AM

It all depends upon what you mean by Christians. I voted yes, but only because I didn't want it misconstrued that I think these people calling themselves Christians are actually representing Christ. But to be more precise, I would say professing Christians give "the church" a bad name. Because they can't give us (particular Christians) a bad name. They can only make the church seem like a house of hypocrites. Which is why it's important not to be a part of any such group.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: PeterJ on December 28, 2019, 06:23:54 AM

Dude, you should know that some parts of the church have shifted their emphasis. This is not something to get bent all out of shape for. The Christian church has been constantly shifting and changing from its start. Yes, sometimes it has been for the worse, but oftentimes for the better.

 8) Take a chill pill and realize the sky is not falling. The world will be fine and the church will be here long after you're gone.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Peng Bao on December 28, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
But to be more precise, I would say professing Christians give "the church" a bad name.

I like that answer.  )cLaPpInGg(
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Erik Diamond on December 28, 2019, 11:38:03 AM
Quote from: Reformer
What do you guys think?

I believe that the false prophets and christs and their worshipers, as well as their doctrines of the devil) are the symptom of God's wrath upon His unfaithful congregation. Something we can "see" as a sign.

Rev 13:11
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The beast is a BODY of false christs and false prophets.


Rev 13:13-14
(13)  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14)  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The doctrines of the beast (false christs and false prophets) is God's judgment upon those so they will believe a lie and worship the image the beast.

Rev 20:7-9
(7)  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8 ) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9)  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The operation of the beast is world-wide assault against God's congregations, wherever the camp of the Saints dwells.
 

Mat 24:15-16
(15)  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(16)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

And God warned his Elect that when they see the abomination of desolation (ie. the fire come down from heaven upon the holy place - church).  Flee.


Rev 11:11-14
(11)  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12)  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(13)  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14)  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

This is the judgment of the unfaithful congregation where the totality of the congregations all over the world will be destroyed. In other words, they will be deceived (by the locusts - false prophets and christs) that they will not able to find salvation through their doctrines, Revelation 9:5-6.  The days of salvation is over and the judgment of the church has come.

Reformer, based on my understanding of the Scripture above, I believe that we are very close to or already in a period of judgment of the Church,  if we are seeing the same thing.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Soldier on December 28, 2019, 12:28:28 PM
I believe that you are correct sir.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Joe Johnson on December 28, 2019, 01:29:09 PM

I do not believe that Erik is correct. Like Peter said, it's not that bad, you're not chicken little, and the sky is not falling. Things will get better when Israel turns back to Christ.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Simon on December 28, 2019, 05:41:50 PM
Some are. But some bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 29, 2019, 02:09:17 AM
>>>
Some are. But some bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch.
<<<

Any farmer will tell you that in reality, it does. Look it up. One rotten "anything" will usually spoil what's around it if not separated and left in contact with it. If you're thinking of the song, it's just a song with no actual basis in reality.

Colossians 2:8

God is very literally saying "watch/look" out for bad apples that will lead you away from the truth of God's word. One literal apple can and does spoil the whole bunch. Likewise, one "analogous" apple can also spoil the whole bunch. Whether it is in general, in community, in politics, or in church. Every government has laws to separate bad apples from society lest they breed more lawlessness. The church is no different. Why would we think God forbids friendship with the world and marriage to unbelievers? ...It is because God Knows that these people will spoil us. Thus we need to be separated from them as a moral people and as a distinct congregation. Just as a spoiled apple, we should know that they will marr, cause decay, degradation, and contaminate us with their lawlessness, beliefs, and Godless love of this world. Which was typified in the laws concerning Israel.

Judges 3:5-7

And the children of Israel (whose children we ultimately are) had fallen into that same snare of being unequally yoked together with unbelievers and had forgotten their Lord God--just like us. Forgotten that they were to be a separated people, a distinct people set apart from the world, and not just like the world. How? Like bad apples not being separated from the bunch, we have the creeping rot among us.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Reformer on December 29, 2019, 02:54:13 AM
 )Goodpoint(
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: ZeroCool on December 29, 2019, 04:00:41 AM

That is the truth Tony. Cancer starts with one cell that corrupts and increases.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Joe Johnson on December 29, 2019, 12:00:54 PM
Yeah but people sometimes live and recover from cancer. Never count the church out.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Laura Tomlinson on December 31, 2019, 02:53:45 AM
I'm not sure, but they are giving themselves a bad name and they are representing Christians. So maybe the answer is yes. )Say_what(
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Kenneth White on December 31, 2019, 07:31:18 AM

There are some really good answers here. Really good. I would say yes to the question since people generally evaluate Christianity based on what they see of Christians. If a majority of Christians are unrighteous, one can't help but think this is the normal behavior of Christians, right? I don't think they should, but I believe that is what we all do. So unfortunately, I think that Christians can get a bad reputation from a poor representation by other Christians.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Frank Mortimer on December 31, 2019, 11:35:29 AM
Some Christians Give Christianity a Bad Name
Michael Jinkins

 

Some Christians give Christianity a bad name. This is not a new thing.

Skip a stone across the ripply surface of history and we are likely to hit so many shame-filled incidents starring Christians as villains that will make us cringe, blush or run to the closest confessional box to repent from guilt-by-association deferred for generations if not centuries. Certainly we aren’t the only guilty religious people in the world. But I can’t confess somebody else’s sins, only mine.

Crusades that were an excuse for rape, vandalism, murder and theft on a large scale; inquisitions aimed at preventing variety in thought or belief, science or faith; violence and torture used to reinforce an ecclesial grip on power; witch hunts, the real kind, in which superstition is yoked to violence in the service of greed and petty revenge; and warfare, bloody-mindedness and pride dressed-up in holy garb: these are only a start.

We remember the question asked by the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, as he was driving in a car through a white neighborhood a few decades ago. Dr. King looked up and saw a magnificent church steeple rising above a beautiful, carefully manicured campus. He asked, “What kind of people worship here? Who is their God?” This Question has haunted me since I first read it in Dr. King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.”

It sometimes feels as though Jesus is standing between the famed “woman caught in adultery” and a band of Christians as self-deluded as self-righteous as anyone he faced in his time, saying, “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” But instead of dropping their rocks and going home in shame the way Jesus’s ancient audience did, these Christian folks say, “You heard him boys! Fire away! Kill that sinner!” Then, stepping down from their moral high ground, they gather somewhere in a dark room to coordinate schemes to support whatever disreputable leaders will further their goals no matter what other damage their policies might do.

Some Christians give Christianity a bad name, to the point that many Christians these days are hesitant to own the label of their faith. It is not that they are ashamed of Jesus Christ, just his fan club. Again, this is not a new thing. But old or new, it isn’t so good.

I recall driving one day through East Texas, my childhood neck of the woods, and passing a church with a message board out front. The next Sunday was Easter, so the preacher had chosen an apt Bible verse for the sign. Apt, but unfortunate, given the unintended message. The sign in front of the church read: “Why do you look for the living among the dead. He is not here.” (Luke 24: 5)

Ouch!

Preaching at a Presbytery meeting in the Midwest a few years ago I said something that has gotten quoted a lot. It was in a moment of frustration. I said, “You don’t have to be mean or stupid to follow Jesus!” Even though I’ve simmered down since then, I still believe what I said is true.

I know we Christians can do better. It’s the reason I haven’t given up hope in us. I sure hope God hasn’t.

Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Tim Norton on December 31, 2019, 12:13:37 PM
Crusades that were an excuse for rape, vandalism, murder and theft on a large scale; inquisitions aimed at preventing variety in thought or belief, science or faith; violence and torture used to reinforce an ecclesial grip on power; witch hunts, the real kind, in which superstition is yoked to violence in the service of greed and petty revenge; and warfare, bloody-mindedness and pride dressed-up in holy garb: these are only a start.

Sounds like Republican political evangelism to me. Christians acting just like the world.


Quote
He asked, “What kind of people worship here? Who is their God?” This Question has haunted me since I first read it in Dr. King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.”

The answer to his question is Christians who are not Christian.


Quote
Some Christians give Christianity a bad name, to the point that many Christians these days are hesitant to own the label of their faith. It is not that they are ashamed of Jesus Christ, just his fan club.

It's not his fan club, it's their fan club. If they were a fan of Christ, they wouldn't be doing and supporting the things that they are.


Quote
The sign in front of the church read: “Why do you look for the living among the dead. He is not here.” (Luke 24: 5)

Ouch!

That sign should be in front of a lot of dead churches.


Quote
I know we Christians can do better. It’s the reason I haven’t given up hope in us. I sure hope God hasn’t.

It's not that there is no hope in us, but that there is no hope in them. Because our hope comes from the spirit of truth, which they don't have. But that the true church always will.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: George on January 01, 2020, 02:04:26 AM

I don't know how many times we have to tell you guys, the church is doing fine. Can you not understand english. You're the only ones talking about this supposed apostasy. Christians are coming out more than ever for a more conservative Christian world. It's only the liberals, the reformed and Democrats that don't seem to like the upsurge in evangelical popularity. Get over yourself.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 01, 2020, 02:46:56 PM
Quote from: George
I don't know how many times we have to tell you guys, the church is doing fine.

And I don't know how many times we have proved you wrong and have warned you several times that the physical, unfaithful and corporate church, not the True Church, do fall and in state of apostasy as Scrpture declared?  Only the Elect can "see" and standing afar off but the foolish virgins are still going to church "thinking" she is fine, and not aware of her judgment, Matthew 25:1-10, Matthew 24:15-16.  Try to read the Scripture yourself, or will you contiune to mock us like what the sons in law did to Lot, Genesis 19:14?

Quote
Can you not understand english.

Can you not understand and receive the Word of God...even in English?
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: ZeroCool on January 02, 2020, 03:35:18 AM
I don't know how many times we have to tell you guys, the church is doing fine.

That my friend is delusional. You think the church should be involved in what it involved with? unapologetic friendship with the world, condoning false doctrine, rejecting the truth of scripture, indulging the false narrative of the Christless Israel, and so on? What church of Christ does that except it be apostate. You should listen to Erik and supply some scripture for your beliefs for a change. The church is not doing fine. The church hasn't been doing fine for years.

II Thess. 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

What are the chances that the people of the church are deceived so that they don't recognize that falling away? Because that's what the word says about them. They are under strain delusion and worship the man of sin. So are you denying what this scripture prophecies will happen?



Quote
You're the only ones talking about this supposed apostasy.

And the rest of you scoff at such an idea? That's really very sad. But even if true, it doesn't matter. The truth is not decided by popularity.

II Peter 3:3
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

All things of the church continue as they were from the beginning of the creation huh? I don't believe that. I believe there is such a falling away that any witness to the truth is condemned, just as you are doing now.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Colleen on January 02, 2020, 05:14:58 AM
I don't know how many times we have to tell you guys, the church is doing fine.

That my friend is delusional.

 )iagree(

 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The time has come.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Betty on January 02, 2020, 11:13:49 AM

Some are giving Christians a bad name. Mainly the puritans, baptists, reformed and other hypocrites who think the law replaces grace.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Mark on January 02, 2020, 05:50:54 PM

Some are giving Christians a bad name. Mainly the puritans, baptists, reformed and other hypocrites who think the law replaces grace.

Isaiah 30:8-11
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

What says God to this rebellious congregation.

Isaiah 30:12-14
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

Those who are giving Christians a bad name are those whose love of God has grown cold, who have itching ears and seek smooth things. As for the hypocrites:

Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Margaret on January 03, 2020, 11:52:49 AM

Thank you Mark
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Philly Dawg on January 04, 2020, 12:29:17 AM
All The False Prophets Gather Together To worship The Beast

"I Know Thy Works, That Thou Hast A Name That Thou Livest, And Art Dead."


Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: George on January 07, 2020, 03:44:18 AM
Liberal Christians are giving us a bad name, but other than that, the answer is no. People who condemn Israel are those that give Christians a bad name. Like you Philly, who condemn and mock Jerusalem as the holy city and its people as God's chosen. And like you Reformer who condemns evangelicals simply because they stand by their President. That is what is disgraceful and that gives us all a bad name.  )S_Confused(
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: R. Anspach on January 11, 2020, 11:19:51 AM
TRUE AND FALSE CHRISTIANS
By Martin Luther

Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and remarked, “Here is a true Israelite who is sincere.”
JOHN 1:47

THE LORD CHRIST DOES NOT want us to brag about being a Christian or, as in the case of Nathanael, being an Israelite. It’s not enough to say, “I am baptized” or even to say, “I am a bishop,” “I am a cardinal” or “I am a preacher.” You must believe in Christ and live like a Christian. You must be righteous both on the inside and on the outside. You must not be embarrassed of the Lord Christ and the Christian faith. If you are, then you are a false Christian. If you don’t believe in your heart, your entire life is a lie and you remain in darkness. You aren’t righteous, and you only appear to be Christian. Your actions don’t reflect your Christian faith.

If we could separate Christians from one another and divide them into true and false Christians, how many true Christians would we find? The world is crazy, foolish, and wild. It’s filled with all kinds of evil – adultery, drunkenness, vindictiveness, and other sins. It’s no longer considered a sin for people to cheat each other. Yet these same people want to be considered good Christians.

Believe me, you’re not fooling anyone but yourself. God isn’t fooled or mocked. He will know what you are really like in an instant, just as he knew that Nathanael was a true Israelite who believed in the prophets. He will look at you and say, “Yes, here is a true Christian!”
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: R. Anspach on January 11, 2020, 11:23:55 AM
Liberal Christians are giving us a bad name

And Conservatives, and Moderates, and Independents, Baptists, Puritans, Lutherans, Southerners, Northeners, and everyone else in between. Anyone who does unrighteousness in the name of Christianity gives Christianity and Christians proclaiming it a bad name. These foolish labels are not helpful. It's the spirit of truth that counts.


Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Kirk on January 12, 2020, 11:04:07 AM

Look at it this way. Did the priests and leaders of Christ's congregation give it a nad name or did they give themselves a bad name?
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 12, 2020, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: Kirk
Look at it this way. Did the priests and leaders of Christ's congregation give it a nad name or did they give themselves a bad name?

Not only the unfaithful leaders of Christ's congregation give it a bad name, but also all professed people of the congregation deceived by them. As a congregation, they are falling, where true Elect are commanded to come out when they see it.

Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Kevin Madson on January 25, 2020, 03:25:49 PM

The stock answer would be to say no. Christians can't give other Christians a bad name. But in reality, they do ruin the reputation of Christians in general. If you see Christians always acting badly, you can't help but think that is the way of Christianity. So I think they do give the church a bad name.

The bible says choose someone of good reputation to lead the church. It also says don't even give the appearance of evil. Doesn't that tell you our reputation is important?
Title: Re: Are Christians Giving Christians A Bad Name?
Post by: Betty on May 10, 2020, 12:28:41 PM

Some are giving Christians a bad name. Mainly the puritans, baptists, reformed and other hypocrites who think the law replaces grace.

Isaiah 30:8-11
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

What says God to this rebellious congregation.


What does this rebellious people have to do with what I said about the puritans, baptists, reformed, and other hypocrites who think that the law replaces grace? The law doesn't replace grace and saying so does not make anyone a rebellious people.

Romans 6:14 (TLB)
"Sin need never again be your master,[a] for now you are no longer tied to the law where sin enslaves you, but you are free under God’s favor and mercy."

Law cannot replace grace and those who think it does are hypocrites.