The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Philly Dawg on May 21, 2019, 07:13:28 AM

Title: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 21, 2019, 07:13:28 AM

Michael Phillips Sermon on Puritan Richard Baxter, A True

Puritan concerning Lying and Man's Justification of it


Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Dana Pescator on May 21, 2019, 08:20:39 AM

Philly, your best post yet. I love it!  Now who can argue with that?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: bloodstone on May 21, 2019, 08:57:41 AM
 )word(  )amen(  )God-Bless-You(

  Nothing like hearing the truth about lies and those who justify them. I always liked Richard Baxter. Anyone know where I can find the original writing online?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: SavedByGrace on May 21, 2019, 09:17:50 AM
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=622020742
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: bloodstone on May 21, 2019, 09:34:03 AM
Thanks but that's not the original writing of Richard Baxter, it's an audio sermon. I'm looking for the original writing by Richard Baxter from which this audio was drawn. But thanks for responding.

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Reformer on May 21, 2019, 10:20:26 AM
Good Stuff Philly  ]ThUmBsUp[  ]ThUmBsUp[
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Linda on May 21, 2019, 11:56:27 AM

Michael Phillips Sermon on Puritan Richard Baxter, A True

Puritan concerning Lying and Man's Justification of it


Thank you, my dear brother, always remembering you in my prayers. Your sister, Linda  :)
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: ZeroCool on May 21, 2019, 01:30:10 PM

Philly, your best post yet. I love it!  Now who can argue with that?

Careful, I said that about a lot of posts, but someone always did.  :'(

  Hypocrisy and bias knows no bounds. It is a great Video though, very contemporary, practical and cutting.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: David Knoles on May 21, 2019, 05:15:01 PM

I'll have you know that there are lies that can be justified. And to prove it, I can give you many Reformed authors who say so. Like Rhab the Harlot. So don't be so cocky with your condemnations of Trump (yes, I know that's who you're talking about). Was Rahab justified in lying about the Israelites? You better believe it!
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Stan Pat on May 21, 2019, 06:14:47 PM
Thanks but that's not the original writing of Richard Baxter, it's an audio sermon. I'm looking for the original writing by Richard Baxter from which this audio was drawn. But thanks for responding.

Bloodstone, is it found in Richard Baxter's "Directions for the government of the tongue?"
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Stan Pat on May 22, 2019, 10:30:10 AM

Michael Phillips Sermon on Puritan Richard Baxter,

A True Puritan concerning Lying and Man's Justification of it


This video was PERFEFCT for the times in which we live where lying is considered by some professing Christianity to be a necessary evil. We have truly forgotten our roots. After reading most of Philly's posts I was struck by how often Christians lie to themselves, compared with how often the Bible speaks of our dishonesty, deceit and lies. I think God is trying to tell us something and I am struck by how easily it is for some to convince themselves that they are not the ones who fall into this snare of the Devil.

Still in the fight!

Proverbs 29:12
"If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked."

Psalms 101:7
"He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight."

Proverbs 20:17
"Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel."

God Bless those who strive to bring forth the truth over those who practice deceit. The true conservative hates lies because they have God's spirit in them.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Herman Stowe on May 22, 2019, 11:21:00 AM

Loved the video Philly. Reformed Theology at its best. We should have more of that. Uncompromising, Biblical, Conservative and Intelligent. Lies are always anti-Christian. There are no exceptions.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Herman Stowe on May 22, 2019, 11:24:49 AM
I'll have you know that there are lies that can be justified. And to prove it, I can give you many Reformed authors who say so.
p

Have you still not come to grips with what Christians have told you again and again? We don't care what authors say. We care what the Bible says. If you want to blindly follow your leader, join the Roman Catholic Church. We don't do that here.


Quote
So don't be so cocky with your condemnations of Trump (yes, I know that's who you're talking about).

The sermon was about lies. Any number of lies, which the theologian clearly listed. Are you feeling guilty or do you just want to excuse lies?

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Trevor on May 23, 2019, 12:11:17 AM
Thanks but that's not the original writing of Richard Baxter, it's an audio sermon. I'm looking for the original writing by Richard Baxter from which this audio was drawn. But thanks for responding.

Is this what you're looking for?

LYING

Baxter, Richard. Directions for the government of the tongue – [pdf, 106 pp.]
From his Christian Directory, part 1.

Directions for the Government of the Tongue (http://www.digitalpuritan.net/Digital%20Puritan%20Resources/Baxter,%20Richard/A%20Body%20of%20Divinity%20(vol.2)%20Individual%20Files/Governing%20the%20Tongue.pdf)

http://digitalpuritan.net/richard-baxter/




Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Susan on May 23, 2019, 05:48:37 AM
I have also heard it taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is not sin. They also brought up Rahab the Harlot. Is this true?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: bloodstone on May 25, 2019, 09:07:13 AM
Thanks but that's not the original writing of Richard Baxter, it's an audio sermon. I'm looking for the original writing by Richard Baxter from which this audio was drawn. But thanks for responding.

Bloodstone, is it found in Richard Baxter's "Directions for the government of the tongue?"

Thanks, but that's not the sermon. Appreciate the information though.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: bloodstone on May 25, 2019, 09:08:43 AM
Thanks but that's not the original writing of Richard Baxter, it's an audio sermon. I'm looking for the original writing by Richard Baxter from which this audio was drawn. But thanks for responding.

Is this what you're looking for?

LYING

Baxter, Richard. Directions for the government of the tongue – [pdf, 106 pp.]
From his Christian Directory, part 1.

Directions for the Government of the Tongue (http://www.digitalpuritan.net/Digital%20Puritan%20Resources/Baxter,%20Richard/A%20Body%20of%20Divinity%20(vol.2)%20Individual%20Files/Governing%20the%20Tongue.pdf)

http://digitalpuritan.net/richard-baxter/

Thanks for the effort, but this is not the sermon on lying. I'll keep looking, but maybe it's not online anymore.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Halle on May 25, 2019, 09:51:25 AM
Your desire is carnal in that you believe falsely that you can fix the world, make the nations Christian, destroy the liberals, arm the Pastors for the safety of the church, minimize the scriptures, excuse lies when it is expedient, ignore the truth when it is inexpedient, and so on and so forth. You all seem of the same mind and the same mentality of humanism. No trust in God, but plenty of trust in yourself and your so-called God Blessed leaders.

My Faithful Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus. This seems so appropriate in our day or any day where a Christian understanding of lies is just so warped by bias and partisanship.


The Evil Tongue
by Thomas Watson

The evil tongue is the earthly tongue; men talk of nothing but the world, as if all their hopes were here, and they looked for an earthly eternity; these have earthly minds, "He that is of the earth, speaketh of the earth" (John 3:31). 

The evil tongue is the lying tongue, "Lie not to one another" (Colossians 3:9). The Cretians were noted for liars (Titus 1:12). It becomes not Christians to be Cretians. Nothing is more contrary to God than a lie; it shows much irreligion; lying is a sin that does not go alone, it ushers in other sins. Absalom told his father a lie, that he was going to pay his vow at Hebron (2 Samuel 15:7), and this lie was a preface to his treason. Lying is such a sin, as takes away all society and converse with men; how can you have converse with him, that you cannot trust a word he says? It is a sin so sordid, that when the liar is convicted, he is ashamed. God's children have this character, they are children that will not lie" (Isaiah 63:8 ), the new nature in them will not suffer them. The liar is near akin to the devil, and the devil will shortly claim kindred with him, "The devil is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44). He seduced our first parents by a lie (Genesis 3:4). How does this sin incense God? He struck Ananias dead for telling a lie (Acts 5:5). The furnace of hell is heated to throw liars into, "Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Revelation 22:15).

The seducing tongue is an evil tongue. The tongue that by fine rhetoric decoys men into error, "By fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:18). A fair tongue can put off bad wares; error is bad ware, which a seducing tongue can put off. The deceit lies in this; a smooth tongue can make error look so like truth, that you can hardly know them asunder; as thus, in justification, Christ bears infinite love to justified persons; this is a glorious truth, but under this notion, the Antinomian presseth libertinism; believers may take more liberty to sin, and God sees no sin in them. Thus, by crying up justification, they destroy sanctification; here is the seducing tongue; and error is as dangerous as vice; one may die by poison as well as by a pistol.

  The evil tongue is the unjust tongue; that will for a piece of money open its mouth in a bad cause. The lawyer has a tongue that will be sold for money, "How long will you judge unjustly?" (Psalm 82:2). Some will plead any cause, though never so bad: though it appears the deeds are forged, the witnesses bribed, there's perjury in the cause; yet they will plead it. When a man pleads a bad cause he is the devil's attorney: as God hates false weights, so a false cause. Better to be born dumb, than open one's mouth in a bad cause. O, what times are we in! Many pervert justice, and, for enriching themselves, overthrow a righteous cause; these are worse than they that rob, for they fleece men's estates under a colour of law, and ruin them under a pretence of doing justice.

Excerpts by Thomas Watson
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Sojourner on May 25, 2019, 11:01:51 AM
 )Bible-Red(   &TY
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: David Knoles on May 26, 2019, 04:03:58 AM
So Reformer, Erik and Philly,
Was Puritan John Winthrop wrong when he set sail to America with a vision of a 'City Upon A Hill'? I mean since you claim christians are in sin when they work for a righteous America. Was John Winthrop in sin? That's my question. Any of you Reformed bible thumping christians care to answer?

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Manuel on May 26, 2019, 09:23:18 AM
My Faithful Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus. This seems so appropriate in our day or any day where a Christian understanding of lies is just so warped by bias and partisanship.

The Evil Tongue
by Thomas Watson


 Excelente Halle, Gracias!
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Susan on May 27, 2019, 12:26:55 PM
I have also heard it taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is not sin. They also brought up Rahab the Harlot. Is this true?

 )bump( No one?   )anyone(
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Kenneth White on May 27, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
First of all Susan, it would be nice to know what Reformed Christian said lies were sometimes justified. I have never heard that.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Susan on May 28, 2019, 03:11:08 AM
First of all Susan, it would be nice to know what Reformed Christian said lies were sometimes justified. I have never heard that.

R.C. Sproul for one, Sam Storms for another, among others. Rahab was never condemned for lying.

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 28, 2019, 08:42:48 AM
Susan. Lying is always wrong. Even for Republican Christians who justify it.

 Proverbs 13:5 "A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame."

A Puritan heart does not justify lying. A lie is an offense to God. Just because Rahab was never condemned for lying doesn't mean that God approved her lie. God absolutely hates a liar! It was her faith that saved her from the wrath of God for her lies, not her lie that proved her faith.

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Susan on May 28, 2019, 10:51:07 AM
That's what I always believed as well. Lying is always wrong, so I thought it was very strange, but Dr. Sproul argues in his article that with regards to Rahab and also the midwives in Egypt, righteousness required deceit. Those are his words and I just need clarification.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Rich Aikers on May 28, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
Watch again the first video in this thread. Satan is the Father of lies and lies can never be justified. For the life of me I never could figure out why some Christian Ministers as well as laymen always seem to attempt to justify lying. Whether it's about taxes, Rahab, what they call a white lie or just plain deceit.

Just because God doesn't strike someone down dead, take away their salvation or single them out for condemnation doesn't mean that God approves of their actions. The thinking of some people seems to be that if it's done for a good cause, it's a righteous act. That is bad thinking on their part. There are articles here that speak to your question. Here's one quote from Prof. Herman Hanko that explains both Rahab and the midwives.


Link to Article: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/rahab_the_harlot.shtml

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Kenneth White on May 28, 2019, 02:50:43 PM
R.C. Sproul doesn't surprise me since he's incorrect about a lot of things and often on the wrong side of what I believe is Biblical. But I am surprised by Sam Storm, since he's usually a careful, conscientious bible believing preacher who I think takes God's word seriously. But that's why we have the bible. So we can check out what anyone says with what we see ourselves in scripture.

But whatever these ministers say, you have to know that they are wrong. God is pure, holy, cannot lie, be dishonest or be deceitful. We pattern our life after Him. Lying is always against the nature of God and so always wrong for his children who have taken on his nature.

 1 Peter 1:16
    "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Dan on August 03, 2019, 05:52:50 AM
OK big guy. How is it that “all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8 ), and yet Rahab was commended twice by New Testament writers?

In other words, no one answered Susan's question where it was taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin. I wonder why?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Dan on August 03, 2019, 05:55:15 AM
Excelente Halle, Gracias!

We speak English in America. If you want to speak spanish, we can send you back  )smileyBounce(
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Maurice on August 04, 2019, 02:39:14 PM
OK big guy. How is it that “all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8 ), and yet Rahab was commended twice by New Testament writers?

In other words, no one answered Susan's question where it was taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin. I wonder why?


Christians!   )S_Confused(

 Reformed Christians can lie now? Why is their such hypocrisy in the church? Don't feel bad Dan, no one answered my questions either. Why are you even a Christian?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Dan on August 18, 2019, 08:20:43 AM
In other words, no one answered Susan's question where it was taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin. I wonder why?


Christians!   )S_Confused(

 Reformed Christians can lie now?

That Reformed Christian pastors teach this is not a surprise to me. They also teach that we are robots predestinated to evil.   ]ThUmBsDoWn[
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Oneil on August 18, 2019, 03:34:00 PM
Not a surprise to me either.  ...and I'm Reformed.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Tony Warren on August 19, 2019, 06:17:10 AM
>>>
In other words, no one answered Susan's question where it was taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin. I wonder why?
<<<

Actually it's not their job to answer for other professing Christians. If you want to know why a professing Christian teaches something, your best bet is to ask them.

As for Susan's general question, not only are there many Christians who attempt to justify the lies of people that are recorded in Scripture, but there are also many who creatively contend that Rahab did not really lie in Joshua chapter 2. But the "FACT" is, she lied! Anyone being honest with themselves and reading the Scripture text in a straightforward and just way would have to confess that she did lie. That includes Christians of the Reformed tradition. She both lied, and her lying was a sin. There are no righteous lies, no honorable mendacity, no upright deceitfulness and no virtuous false witnesses. God is consistent in His hatred and condemnation of all lies, deceit and dishonesty. It is written:

Proverbs 12:22[
John 3:21

Whether me, you, the Pope, Rahab, you Minister, or anyone else lies, this is an abomination to a Holy God, and there are no exceptions. Rhab was elect, and therefore her lie was paid for in the broken body of Christ, just as for all of our lies and other sins. There is no need for Christians to attempt to justify her lie or to "pretend" that it wasn't a sin because to do so is to dabble in absurdity. It is not to understand the true holiness and perfection of God. All unrighteousness is abhorrent to Him. The sin of the righteous as well as the sin of the unrighteous. God is holy and our desire is to be Holy also. But we will never be sinless (except in Christ) so long as we are on this earth.

But Christ is. Can you imagine Christ lying in any circumstance? The very thought is abhorrent.

Titus 1:2

God cannot lie because He is Holy and holiness requires that He not lie. We are to be Holy, even as Christ is Holy. But it is only in the Spirit of Christ that dwells within us that we are holy, because He has paid for every single one of our sins. Not because we are perfect creatures that never sin or never will sin.

So simply because the Scriptures commends Rahab for her faith does not mean that God condones everything that she (or any Prophet) did. Did... Just because someone is elect doesn't mean that they will very literally never commit a sin again, except in the blood washed body of Christ.

Leviticus 19:11

Sinlessness is our desire. But Lot sinned, Solomon sinned, David sinned, Peter sinned--we don't need to make up excuses to justify their sins to prove they were people of faith. They were. But they weren't perfect, they had feet of clay like the rest of us. Nevertheless, His grace was sufficient for them all.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Tony Warren on August 19, 2019, 06:36:48 AM
>>>
OK big guy. How is it that “all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8 ), and yet Rahab was commended twice by New Testament writers?
<<<

Because she became a child of the congregation of Israel and a repentant liar in God's eyes. All of us were sinners at one time or another. And all unsaved men are liars, whether they lie about spies, their actions, feelings, or just lie to themselves. Not one single man or woman goes through life without coming under the curse of being a liar. But just like Rahab, they can find forgiveness in the faith of the blood of Jesus Christ. Not just Rahab, there is no one who can stand the test of righteousness before God.

1st Corinthians 6:9-11

We all started out just like Rahab did. No justification of our lies or our other sins is required for us to be children of faith. Neither Rahab's.


>>>
In other words, no one answered Susan's question where it was taught by multiple Reformed Pastors that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin. I wonder why?
<<<

Yes, there are multiple Reformed ministers hat teach that Lying in certain instances is NOT sin, however, this is Biblically invalidated. Indeed, it is contradictory to the teachings of Christianity. Your problem seems to be that you take anything that a particular Reformed Minister says "as if" it is Christian doctrine. No, it is that Minister's opinion of what is Christian doctrine. Christian doctrine is clearly stated on the pages of Scripture, it's not what certain ministers think Scripture "implies." 


>>>
Christians!   )S_Confused(

 Reformed Christians can lie now?
<<<

No. But they can be incorrect in their teachings since no man is perfect. God's teachings are perfect, but man tends to believe that he can "read into" the Scriptures something he "thinks" it implies. That's not Christian doctrine, that is speculation and supposition.


>>>
Why is their such hypocrisy in the church?

There is hypocrisy in the world, why would you think it wouldn't sometimes find its way into the church? You could ask that same question about any group. And you'd get the same answer from me. Because the heart of mnan is desperately wicked.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: George on August 20, 2019, 12:40:38 PM
So R.C. Sproul is a false teacher? Is that what you are saying? Let's be clear, OK.
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Erik Diamond on August 20, 2019, 01:33:48 PM
Quote
So R.C. Sproul is a false teacher? Is that what you are saying? Let's be clear, OK.

Hummm... so what do you know about R.C. Sproul anyway?  The subject is about whether lying is a sin, not false teachers.

So you want to be clear here?  Okay, here is the question for you:  do you believe lying is not a sin? Yes or no? If so, can you prove that with Scripture yourself?  Don't bring in R.C. Sproul "as if" you pretend to know Scripture about lying, Selah!   

Tony was clear and accurate that all forms of lies, deceit and dishonesty, even by the Elect, are sins in God's eyes. He even quoted Scripture to prove his position, then where are YOURS if you don't agree. 

Didn't you read what Tony said? Christian doctrine is clearly stated on the pages of Scripture, it's not what certain ministers think Scripture "implies."  Do you agree with this or not?
Title: Re: Puritan Heart Sermon On Lying
Post by: Rose on September 01, 2019, 06:12:00 AM
So R.C. Sproul is a false teacher? Is that what you are saying? Let's be clear, OK.

I believe that R.C. Sproul is a good Christian teacher and sometimes lies are done with good intent like with Rahab. And that's not sinful so I agree with Sproul. Why would she be commended for what she did if it was sin? She wouldn't. And so I believe that sometimes a lie can be virtuous and not a sin.