The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Studyman on December 23, 2018, 08:45:43 AM

Title: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 23, 2018, 08:45:43 AM
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I was recently rebuked by some religious folks for suggesting Jesus was God who became a man and dwelt among us. They argued that Jesus overcame sin and satan as a God, and not as a man like you and I. They sited the Word "Emmanuel" as their support for this teaching.

I was surprised at how many really didn't believe that Jesus overcame sin as a man. Ex. 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Is this teaching that Jesus didn't overcome satan as a man, but God a new teaching, or am I missing something?






Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Pilgrim on December 23, 2018, 10:23:38 AM
He overcame sin as a God Man. Not God and not man, but the God Man. He had to be God because no man could overcome sin, and he had to be man because it was for man that he had to overcome sin. So you are both right and you are both wrong. He was God come to earth in the flesh of man to overcome the sins of man. He had to be man and he had to be god, without either one he couldn't be a substitute for man. If it were true he was only God then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just snapped his fingers and we would have been forgiven. But that would violate the law. God never violates his law. The wages of sin is death. A man had to die and a God had to go through death as substitution man, in order for man to live.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: R. Anspach on December 23, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
As Christ, the Savior, you can't separate the man from Christ, or Christ from the man.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: R. Anspach on December 23, 2018, 03:07:51 PM
If it were true he was only God then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just snapped his fingers and we would have been forgiven.

Exactly. Why would God come to earth as man if man had nothing to do with the propitiation of the sins of man? Without the flesh of man, there's no sin since the God Christ, without the sins of man, never had sin. The sins of man, our sins, had to be in the flesh of the man Christ in order for them to be paid for.

II Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 23, 2018, 03:20:39 PM

Ex. 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Duet. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I appreciate the replies. I think this is a good conversation to have. I know what is generally accepted. I just want to make sure my belief aligns with the Word of God. I would appreciate any reference to scriptures which say Jesus "overcame" because He had powers no other human has access to.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Robert Powell on December 23, 2018, 07:24:09 PM
Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
 
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes   
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:9 ESV / 22 helpful votes   
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

John 1:14 ESV / 22 helpful votes   
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 ESV / 19 helpful votes   
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

2 John 1:7 ESV / 17 helpful votes   
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

John 1:1 ESV / 14 helpful votes   
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Romans 1:1-32 ESV / 11 helpful votes   
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, ...

Colossians 1:19 ESV / 10 helpful votes   
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

1 Peter 3:15 ESV / 9 helpful votes   
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Hebrews 4:15 ESV / 9 helpful votes   
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

John 20:28 ESV / 9 helpful votes   
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

John 14:6 ESV / 9 helpful votes   
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hebrews 1:8 ESV / 8 helpful votes   
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

John 1:1-51 ESV / 8 helpful votes   
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...

Hebrews 1:3 ESV / 7 helpful votes   
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Titus 2:13 ESV / 7 helpful votes   
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Philippians 2:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes   
But made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

1 Peter 2:4-6 ESV / 6 helpful votes   
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Ephesians 2:1-22 ESV / 6 helpful votes   
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— ...

John 19:28 ESV / 6 helpful votes   
After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.”

John 17:5 ESV / 6 helpful votes   
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Revelation 2:8 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

1 John 4:2 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

2 Peter 1:1 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 2:14 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Ephesians 4:1-32 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, ...

1 Corinthians 12:1-31 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; ...

1 Corinthians 3:16 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

John 1:1-3 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Luke 2:52 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

Matthew 26:1-75 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.” Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.” ...

Matthew 1:23 ESV / 5 helpful votes   
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

1 Peter 2:24 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Galatians 6:1-18 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load. ...

Galatians 4:4 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Galatians 4:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. ...

Galatians 2:1-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. ...

1 Corinthians 14:24-25 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Romans 9:1-33 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. ...

Romans 8:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Acts 12:1-25 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
About that time Herod the king laid violent hands on some who belonged to the church. He killed James the brother of John with the sword, and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread. And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out to the people. So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church. ...

Acts 2:24 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

John 10:30-33 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

John 4:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Jacob's well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.

John 2:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Luke 4:8 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”

Mark 14:58 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”

Matthew 28:20 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Matthew 17:1-5 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

Matthew 16:18 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 4:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

Matthew 1:1-25 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, ...

Micah 7:1-20 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Woe is me! For I have become as when the summer fruit has been gathered, as when the grapes have been gleaned: there is no cluster to eat, no first-ripe fig that my soul desires. The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge. The day of your watchmen, of your punishment, has come; now their confusion is at hand. Put no trust in a neighbor; have no confidence in a friend; guard the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms; ...

Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ...

Isaiah 28:20 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
For the bed is too short to stretch oneself on, and the covering too narrow to wrap oneself in.

Song of Solomon 3:6-5:1 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
What is that coming up from the wilderness like columns of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all the fragrant powders of a merchant? Behold, it is the litter of Solomon! Around it are sixty mighty men, some of the mighty men of Israel, all of them wearing swords and expert in war, each with his sword at his thigh, against terror by night. King Solomon made himself a carriage from the wood of Lebanon. He made its posts of silver, its back of gold, its seat of purple; its interior was inlaid with love by the daughters of Jerusalem. ...

Proverbs 8:1-36 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud: “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man. O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense. ...

Psalm 44:1-26 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
To the choirmaster. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah. O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us, what deeds you performed in their days, in the days of old: you with your own hand drove out the nations, but them you planted; you afflicted the peoples, but them you set free; for not by their own sword did they win the land, nor did their own arm save them, but your right hand and your arm, and the light of your face, for you delighted in them. You are my King, O God; ordain salvation for Jacob! Through you we push down our foes; through your name we tread down those who rise up against us. ...

Judges 1:1-2:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
After the death of Joshua, the people of Israel inquired of the Lord, “Who shall go up first for us against the Canaanites, to fight against them?” The Lord said, “Judah shall go up; behold, I have given the land into his hand.” And Judah said to Simeon his brother, “Come up with me into the territory allotted to me, that we may fight against the Canaanites. And I likewise will go with you into the territory allotted to you.” So Simeon went with him. Then Judah went up and the Lord gave the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand, and they defeated 10,000 of them at Bezek. They found Adoni-bezek at Bezek and fought against him and defeated the Canaanites and the Perizzites. ...

Exodus 4:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Then Moses answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you.’” The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A staff.” And he said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses ran from it. But the Lord said to Moses, “Put out your hand and catch it by the tail”—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” ...

Exodus 1:1-2:25 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
These are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob, each with his household: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin, Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher. All the descendants of Jacob were seventy persons; Joseph was already in Egypt. ...

Genesis 3:1-24 ESV / 4 helpful votes   
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” ...

Revelation 22:13 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Revelation 3:14 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

Revelation 1:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Revelation 1:8 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 1:1-20 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...

1 John 5:20 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

1 John 1:1 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—

Hebrews 13:1-25 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” ...

Hebrews 7:3 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.

Hebrews 2:17 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Titus 2:1-15 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. ...

2 Thessalonians 2:8 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Colossians 1:16 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Philippians 2:6-7 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:5-7 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Ephesians 2:20 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

Ephesians 2:19-22 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11-22 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, ...

1 Corinthians 15:3 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Romans 6:23 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 21:17 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

John 10:30 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
I and the Father are one.”

John 5:23 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:1-47 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” ...

John 1:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Luke 24:39 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Luke 2:11 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:7 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

Luke 1:35 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Mark 8:33 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Matthew 14:33 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 4:10 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

Isaiah 66:1 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

Isaiah 57:15 ESV / 3 helpful votes   
For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

Revelation 1:17-18 ESV / 2 helpful votes   
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: aquatic on December 23, 2018, 08:30:45 PM

 I would appreciate any reference to scriptures which say Jesus "overcame" because He had powers no other human has access to.

You already mentioned one verse: Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But I think Rev 12:11 answers your question

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

They overcame by the blood of the Lamb. No human has the power within themselves  to overcome sin. The only way to access it is thru the blood of Christ. So Christ has the power that no other man has.

I think it’s pretty clear.  Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Reformer on December 24, 2018, 06:34:52 AM
Exactly. Why would God come to earth as man if man had nothing to do with the propitiation of the sins of man? Without the flesh of man, there's no sin since the God Christ, without the sins of man, never had sin. The sins of man, our sins, had to be in the flesh of the man Christ in order for them to be paid for.

II Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

 )iagree( God cannot be made sin, but God born as a man can and was. And without the resurrection of Christ from death, in the flesh (John 20:25-27), and without those sins, we are all yet dead in our sins. That's why Christ showed his hands and the nail holes, so there would be no mistake about the flesh of man. The wages of sin for man is death. Christ could pay those wages as man because he was god. Mere man couldn't do it and would still be dead in trespass and sins.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Christ had to be fully God and fully man to accomplish our salvation.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 24, 2018, 10:52:59 AM
Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
 
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes   
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


Thank you for all the wonderful verses. But my question was "Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as an immortal God". Many of the Scriptures you posted referenced Him after His Father Raised Him from the dead. Many were references to Him before He became the "Man" Jesus Christ.

You posted scripture which says there is only one God. Which is true. And one mediator. Who did this mediator tell us to "pray too? The same God He prayed to, YES?

Matt. 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matt. 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Mark 6:41 And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all.

Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

One scripture you shared with me as your evidence that Jesus overcame satan because He was immortal God, with powers no other human has access to was:

Matt. 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But the Scriptures teach Moses did the same thing.

Ex. 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water.

So it seems, according to the Scriptures, the Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus. The Word of God which became Flesh and dwelt among us. A sheep from His Flock which was for the slaughter, God who was made in "All things" like His Brethren, relied on His Father for EVERYTHING HE did. He prayed to His Father, not Himself. He taught His Followers to pray to His Father in heaven. He was sustained in a fast for 40 days and forty night by His Father, just as did Moses.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

So it seems according to His Word's, that He relied on His Father for everything. His Father gave Him, the man Jesus, His doctrine, the power to forgive, power to do miracles, power to raise folks from the dead.  the power to overcome satan, and when He was a Faithful Son unto death, this Same Father raised Him from the dead and set Him on the right hand of His Throne..

If He came as God, overcame sin as God, overcame satan as God, raised Himself from the dead as God, then He really didn't come in the Flesh, then He really didn't overcome sin by following His own advice. "Live by Every Word of God".

Is Jesus not the author and finisher of our Faith? Are we not to over come sin by completely relying on Him and ALL His Word's? Shall I also have access to the same power of God through Him, like Moses Sampson, David and all the other examples of Faith in the Bible?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Anyway, It seems to diminish His Great Victory by teaching that He overcome sin because He was an immortal God that couldn't be tempted, couldn't die, had nothing to lose, rather than what the scriptures seem to imply, that He overcome sin by completely offering His human self a living sacrifice to God the Father.

Thank you all those scriptures. It is His Word's which are truth, on this I am sure. I am hoping to have an honest debate about the Word's of God on this matter.












 
















 









Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: R. Anspach on December 24, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
 
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes   
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


Thank you for all the wonderful verses. But my question was "Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as an immortal God". Many of the Scriptures you posted referenced Him after His Father Raised Him from the dead. Many were references to Him before He became the "Man" Jesus Christ.

Your question was answered but I think you are missing the whole point inherent in most of those verses. That God cannot die, and that man had to die in order for him to live. You can't have one without the other. Fully man in order to die, and fully God in order to raise up from that death. So your question is answered. Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as an immortal God? Answer is he overcame sin as a man because sin belonged to man, and as the immortal God because God alone could. I think we pretty much said that many times.


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You posted scripture which says there is only one God. Which is true. And one mediator. Who did this mediator tell us to "pray too? The same God He prayed to, YES?

So you're actually saying Jesus was not God? Is this your theory? Are you part of those who reject the Trinity or that think Jesus was not God?


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So it seems, according to the Scriptures, the Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Which you suppose was not God?


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Anyway, It seems to diminish His Great Victory by teaching that He overcome sin because He was an immortal God that couldn't be tempted, couldn't die

Are you supposing that God could die? Or are you supposing that a mere man could overcome the sins of every elect that ever lived?  Either way, you are wrong according to the word of God.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Kira on December 25, 2018, 09:45:02 AM
 )Goodpoint( ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Reformer on December 25, 2018, 12:32:46 PM
Anyway, It seems to diminish His Great Victory by teaching that He overcome sin because He was an immortal God that couldn't be tempted, couldn't die

Are you supposing that God could die? Or are you supposing that a mere man could overcome the sins of every elect that ever lived?  Either way, you are wrong according to the word of God.

 &TY )Bible-Red( )Goodpoint(  It seems Studyman is trying to make this a either/or scenario. He couldn't be either/or, he had to be both. He had to overcome sin as man and immortal God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The fullness of God in this man bodily, the incarnate God in the flesh. Believers, by faith partake of His death and resurrection because he was man with a divine nature.

Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 26, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

 I would appreciate any reference to scriptures which say Jesus "overcame" because He had powers no other human has access to.

You already mentioned one verse: Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But I think Rev 12:11 answers your question

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

They overcame by the blood of the Lamb. No human has the power within themselves  to overcome sin. The only way to access it is thru the blood of Christ. So Christ has the power that no other man has.

I think it’s pretty clear.  Hope that helps.

I agree 100% and never suggesting anything differently. I must rely on my Savior, not only for the forgiveness of sins, but also for the strength to "overcome" sin and temptation as Jesus relied on His Father for His Strength to overcome sin and temptation. Without the Word of God who created all things, how would I know what sin is? How would I know what Passover is? How would I know the true nature of man, and the Righteousness of God?

My question was, Did Jesus overcome as a man who relied on His Father for His doctrine, for the miracles He performed, for His strength to withstand the wiles of satan, and human lusts? Or was He "fully God" and relied on His power no human has access to for His Victory against satan.

Again, I'm speaking about what the Word of God teaches about Him.

Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

From the scriptures it seems Jesus overcame by humbling Himself to His Father and His Father Loved Him, granted Him Spiritual protection from the deceiver, and raised Him from the dead because He was a faithful Son. The Bible says He learned to choose good over evil. I agree that He was the walking, talking Word of God, the creator God of the Bible which became Flesh. But question the implication that He was only Flesh in appearance.

I truly believe He overcame sin in the flesh, that God became Flesh "in all things like unto His Brethren", that He was "made a little lower than the angels", which I interpret as He was made mortal like His brethren. That God the father raised Him from the dead, and will also raise me from the dead if I overcome sin and temptation by "Denying myself, taking up my cross, and following Him" as He denied Himself, took up His cross and followed His Father.

I just strikes me how some seem determined to take away or diminish what this 60 year old man sees as a great victory, a path for His People to follow, the Author of Salvation, by implying that He accomplished this victory, not because He relied on His Father in all things, but because He was an immortal God who didn't risk His Life at all.











Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Reformer on December 26, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
I truly believe He overcame sin in the flesh, that God became Flesh "in all things like unto His Brethren"

Then He overcame sin as a man and as God. Because God didn't sin.  So what are you disputing?


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I interpret as He was made mortal like His brethren.

God made as mortal as man sounds to me like God as man in order to redeem man. Evidence again that you cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ in salvation.


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That God the father raised Him from the dead

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jesus Christ said "I" will raise it up. Evidence again that you cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ in salvation.


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I just strikes me how some seem determined to take away or diminish what this 60 year old man sees as a great victory, a path for His People to follow, the Author of Salvation, by implying that He accomplished this victory, not because He relied on His Father in all things, but because He was an immortal God who didn't risk His Life at all.

We're not implying anything, we're saying plainly that He accomplished this victory because He was fully man and fully God who suffered the penalty of death for sin "in the flesh," and was resurrected "in the flesh" without those sins. Being man He paid the penalty in the flesh for sin and was resurrected without those sins because He was God. We don't imply, we declare what is written. The everlasting, eternal, undying God who has no beginning and has no end, obviously cannot die. If we believe the Bible. The man Christ died in the flesh and was resurrected because he was more than just a man. You cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ. God didn't come as God to redeem us, He came as man to redeem us. Don't try and minimize the suffering of the man Christ apart from the resurrection by the God Christ. They were put together for a reason.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

God made himself a man that he might taste death for every elect. Yes God the father raised God the son from the dead, because they are one. Don't try and minimize the suffering of the man Christ for His people in death that they might have salvation.

Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 26, 2018, 09:57:57 AM
Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
 
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1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes   
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,



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Thank you for all the wonderful verses. But my question was "Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as an immortal God". Many of the Scriptures you posted referenced Him after His Father Raised Him from the dead. Many were references to Him before He became the "Man" Jesus Christ.


Your question was answered but I think you are missing the whole point inherent in most of those verses. That God cannot die, and that man had to die in order for him to live. You can't have one without the other. Fully man in order to die, and fully God in order to raise up from that death. So your question is answered. Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as an immortal God? Answer is he overcame sin as a man because sin belonged to man, and as the immortal God because God alone could. I think we pretty much said that many times.

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You posted scripture which says there is only one God. Which is true. And one mediator. Who did this mediator tell us to "pray too? The same God He prayed to, YES?


So you're actually saying Jesus was not God? Is this your theory? Are you part of those who reject the Trinity or that think Jesus was not God?

I'm really not interested in one religious doctrine over another. I didn't post this question to debate different religions and their beliefs. Jesus instructed us to Live by "Every Word of God". So This is what I am exploring here. Jesus was "The Word of God" which became Flesh. He was a "man of sorrows". He was "made perfect" through sufferings.  He was the "The First Fruit" of many who would overcome by His Sacrifice.

 The scriptures say God became a "man" and dwelt among us. It doesn't say He came to earth as a God. Jesus was God who became a man "in all things like unto His Brethren". God the Father raised Him from the Dead. Do you not believe these things?



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So it seems, according to the Scriptures, the Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Which you suppose was not God?


I have already established that the Word of God, His Son, that He sent from the beginning, "Let there be light", is the creator God of the Bible. He spoke to Abraham, He gave Cain, Abraham, Moses, and all of us His Fathers Words. He is the Life of man as His Word's clearly show. HIS Word's are Spirit and they are Life.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ, the Word of God made Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

There is no other way to eternity. But my question is "Did He, the Son of God, the Christ, the Word of God come to earth as a man and dwelt among us, or did God come to earth as an immortal God? It seems many religious man teache He came to earth as an immortal God that was only flesh in appearance. It seems like an important Biblical foundation to understand.



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Anyway, It seems to diminish His Great Victory by teaching that He overcome sin because He was an immortal God that couldn't be tempted, couldn't die

Are you supposing that God could die? Or are you supposing that a mere man could overcome the sins of every elect that ever lived?  Either way, you are wrong according to the word of God.

It is the Word of God which prompted my question.

God can not die. But Jesus did, unless you believe He was faking it. God can not be tempted, but Jesus was, unless you believe it was all a show. God can not fear, but Jesus did, unless you don't believe what is written about Him.

The Scriptures pretty much show that Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh, Trusted His Father for the power to do miracles, to overcome, and didn't rely on His own will or power at all.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Again, it just seems to not only go against scripture, but also diminishes the great sacrifice He made to become the unblemished Lamb by implying He really wasn't a man like you and I.







Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 26, 2018, 10:41:45 AM
Anyway, It seems to diminish His Great Victory by teaching that He overcome sin because He was an immortal God that couldn't be tempted, couldn't die

Are you supposing that God could die? Or are you supposing that a mere man could overcome the sins of every elect that ever lived?  Either way, you are wrong according to the word of God.

 &TY )Bible-Red( )Goodpoint(  It seems Studyman is trying to make this a either/or scenario. He couldn't be either/or, he had to be both. He had to overcome sin as man and immortal God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The fullness of God in this man bodily, the incarnate God in the flesh. Believers, by faith partake of His death and resurrection because he was man with a divine nature.

Once again, I am only interested in what the scriptures, all of them, speak to. What do you mean "divine nature"? Are you saying He really didn't overcome sin as a man? That He only appeared as a man until the going got tough as it does for all men, then He kicked in some of His own supernatural Power no other human has ever had access to? It is written Angels administered to Him? If He was an immortal God, how is it God His Father sent help from Angels? Why make such a big deal out of the Word of God, the Christ, the Great Creator God of the planet, who become "in all things" like unto His Brethren, if He wasn't like unto His Brethren?

It is written He was "made perfect" from the things He suffered. How is it God is made perfect. But if God became Flesh like into His Brethren, then of course, He must learn to "choose the good over the evil".

I am fascinated by how difficult it is for folks to accept that God became a Man and dwelt among us. I didn't realize how wide spread this belief was until I asked the question.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Angels are immortal, the seed of Abraham, humans, are not immortal.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

How did the Christ "lay down His Life"? If He came to earth as an immortal God, then He had nothing to lose. He risked nothing. But If He truly became Flesh and blood, as it is written, then He risked His Immortality, His Life, for me. Truly no greater love is there, than to lay down ones life for their brothers.

So given what the Word of God teaches, I truly believe the He, the God of Abraham, came in the Flesh and dwelt among us.

For the Son of God, the Christ, the God of Abraham to make such a sacrifice for His Father, who loved us and gave His only Son for us, is an amazing feat. What a great victory for His Son to overcome sin and satan as a man, using only the powers God has given all men who trust in Him from the very beginning. And His Father raised Him from the dead and has given Him the glory He had before He risked His Life and became a man.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Truly He is Lord of Lord's, and King of Kings.






Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 26, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
I truly believe He overcame sin in the flesh, that God became Flesh "in all things like unto His Brethren"

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Then He overcame sin as a man and as God. Because God didn't sin.  So what are you disputing?

Where do the scriptures say Jesus overcame sin as God? My dispute is with the teaching that Jesus overcame sin with powers no other human had access to. There is no scriptural evidence to support this teaching. He relied on His father for the power to do miracles. When He was tempted, what did He do? Did He not trust the Word's of God over other words? Who among us doesn't have the power to believe in and trust the Word of God over other voices?

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I interpret as He was made mortal like His brethren.

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God made as mortal as man sounds to me like God as man in order to redeem man. Evidence again that you cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ in salvation.

Again, I am just trusting scriptures. It says He comes in the Flesh. It says He was a "man of sorrows". It says He was "made perfect", and "learned obedience" from the things He suffered, that He was "like Moses" (both fasted 40 days and forty nights). He died like all men. And as it is written, He was a faithful Son, so God Raised Him from the dead, as He will raise all men who are "faithful to Him".

I am not separating anything, neither am I trying to separate anything. The scriptures make it very clear, HE came in the Flesh and overcame sin and temptation by the power of His Father in whom He trusted in all things. He had trials to test His Faith as do all God's Children. Abel, Noah, Abraham, Rehab, Sampson, Zechariahs, etc. He truly is the Author of my Faith.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

But if, as many teach, He didn't overcome sin as a man like you and I, but as God because somehow God becoming a man doesn't mean actually "becoming a man", because??????


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That God the father raised Him from the dead

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Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jesus Christ said "I" will raise it up. Evidence again that you cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ in salvation.

I appreciate this scripture but He said to "live by" All His Words.

 Destroy "THIS TEMPLE", The man Jesus, and after lying dead for 3 days and 3 nights, I will receive the promises I gave to Abraham.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Mat. 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

These scriptures also have meaning.

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I just strikes me how some seem determined to take away or diminish what this 60 year old man sees as a great victory, a path for His People to follow, the Author of Salvation, by implying that He accomplished this victory, not because He relied on His Father in all things, but because He was an immortal God who didn't risk His Life at all.

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We're not implying anything, we're saying plainly that He accomplished this victory because He was fully man and fully God who suffered the penalty of death for sin "in the flesh," and was resurrected "in the flesh" without those sins. Being man He paid the penalty in the flesh for sin and was resurrected without those sins because He was God. We don't imply, we declare what is written. The everlasting, eternal, undying God who has no beginning and has no end, obviously cannot die. If we believe the Bible. The man Christ died in the flesh and was resurrected because he was more than just a man. You cannot separate the man Christ from the God Christ. God didn't come as God to redeem us, He came as man to redeem us. Don't try and minimize the suffering of the man Christ apart from the resurrection by the God Christ. They were put together for a reason.

He wasn't raised "In the Flesh", He was raised A Spiritual body. We know this this because it is written, "Flesh and Blood" shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. He didn't raise Himself as a "Flesh and Blood" man because He was dead, dead men can do nothing. But Death couldn't hold Him because it is written "The wages of sin is death". He didn't sin, therefore death could not hold Him. He made a show openly of the White Washed walls whose "Law" condemned Him to death.

Jesus is not walking the earth as a Flesh and Blood man any more. He was born, and He was crucified and died as it is written. Now it is His Spirit which dwells in the hearts of men. He writes His Laws, that His Father gave Him on His Peoples hearts.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I just think it is a dangerous doctrine to teach that Jesus overcame sin and temptation because He had access to power no other "man" had access to.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

God made himself a man that he might taste death for every elect. Yes God the father raised God the son from the dead, because they are one. Don't try and minimize the suffering of the man Christ for His people in death that they might have salvation.

I'm not minimizing His Victory at all. Those who claim He overcame sin because He had special powers that no other human had, are minimizing His Glory. I just don't believe the Bible supports the teaching that when the going got tough, He had victory by accessing powers no other human has access to. I posted scriptures which support this, both from His Word's as the Word of God, and as His Word's as the Word which became flesh.

I believe He is the perfect example of a human, and we are to "strive" to deny our self, follow Him, as He denied His Human mind and relied on the Word's of His Father. As it is written;

Ph. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;




Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Reformer on December 26, 2018, 04:07:25 PM
This is circular reasoning. He overcame sin as a man, because no man could overcome his own sin?

much less anyone else's.

Your mistake is evident in the fact that if no man could overcome his own sin, then Christ was no mere man. He had to be more than a man. He had to be a man because he was born of Mary's flesh, plus born of God's Spirit. There was no male human father. You can reject this all you want, but that makes him by nature and birth no mere man.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Chris on December 26, 2018, 07:29:00 PM
 )iagree( because it's biblical, logical and makes the most sense. He sure didn't come to prove that a man can be perfect apart from God.

Studyman, You never answered if you believe in the trinity? That would give us a better perspective of where you are coming from doctrinally.
Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Trevor on December 27, 2018, 06:35:57 AM
This is circular reasoning. He overcame sin as a man, because no man could overcome his own sin?

Agreed, we ask ourselves "what is wrong with this picture?" It's not credible. And this is not even including the part where he never sinned and so had to become sin apart from himself and die for others? What man could do that?

2nd Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Can a man be made sin and suffer the wrath of God for other's sins? No. That task requires a God man.

Isaiah 60:16
"Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

A dichotomy? No, because Jesus is God. Not a god, the God Jehovah.


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Your mistake is evident in the fact that if no man could overcome his own sin, then Christ was no mere man.

Exactly. That's not taking away any glory from God in Christ the man, because Jesus was God. Unless someone holds to a position that Jesus wasn't God but just a man.

Matthew 1:23
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

This man born of a virgin and of God will be known as God with us, God manifested in the flesh, and he would be the living connection of holy God and man because He was both. Through him we would have the intimate fellowship between God and man that we long for.


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He had to be more than a man. He had to be a man because he was born of Mary's flesh, plus born of God's Spirit. There was no male human father. You can reject this all you want, but that makes him by nature and birth no mere man.

 )amen(
Psalms 14:2-3
"The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

And so because there wasn't one single natural man who could overcome his sin, God sent a special man after his nature, who could overcome sin for them. A man born of divine seed, not born of Joseph. As you said, no mere man. Unless you don't believe he was fathered by God and not a man.

Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 27, 2018, 07:42:58 AM
This is circular reasoning. He overcame sin as a man, because no man could overcome his own sin?

much less anyone else's.

Your mistake is evident in the fact that if no man could overcome his own sin, then Christ was no mere man. He had to be more than a man. He had to be a man because he was born of Mary's flesh, plus born of God's Spirit. There was no male human father. You can reject this all you want, but that makes him by nature and birth no mere man.

Man can not overcome sin, unless they know what sin is. No man can overcome sin without God first showing Him what sin is. Therefore, man can not overcome sin on their own. Man can not remove His own past sins. No matter what he "Does" his sin remains until God, and only God removes them. Therefore man can not overcome sin on their own.

The scriptures say Jesus was born a child as all of us, and He "learned" obedience from the things He suffered. That He was "in all things" like us, and was tempted "in all ways" as us. I have no reason to question His own Word's about who He was. What doctrines did HE live by? His own as a "man", or His Fathers? Did He follow the Mainstream God of Abraham preaching religion of His Time, or did He stick to the doctrines of His Father? Who guided His Footsteps, Did He, or did His Father. Whose Word's did He give His Children? His own, or His Fathers. Did He create His own religion? Or did He further the teaching His Father gave Him in the very beginning?

He overcame sin as we all are to overcome sin, by humbling ourselves to EVERY WORD of God. Is this not what He tells us? "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect". Is that not what He did, according to the scriptures? I reject the implication that Jesus placed burdens on people that He, as a man, could not lift with one finger.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And whose Word's did He say He gives us?

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

As it is written!!!!


You seem to imply that because He dedicated His Life to His Father, and lived as His father intended all men to live, that He wasn't really just a man. That He didn't really didn't humble Himself to be made like unto His Brethren in all things. That He really didn't come in the Flesh, He was "more" than Flesh.

I reject the teaching that man can not overcome sin and temptation if they "Cling" unto the Christ and follow the path He walked. If I "put on" the whole Armor of God, as Jesus did, shall I not be able to withstand the wiles of the devil, as He did? And if I follow this instruction, am I overcoming sin on my own? Or is it Christ in me?



















Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 27, 2018, 07:54:26 AM
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)iagree( because it's biblical, logical and makes the most sense. He sure didn't come to prove that a man can be perfect apart from God.

No one, especially me, and certainly not the Christ, ever implied or suggested that man can be made "perfect" apart from God. I don't know where you got this from, but it wasn't me.

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Studyman, You never answered if you believe in the trinity? That would give us a better perspective of where you are coming from doctrinally.

If you want to make a thread about some of your religious doctrines, feel free to do it and I might weigh in. But I don't want to get distracted from this discussion. It is a big deal and a huge difference between the belief that Jesus had access to powers no other human has ever had in resisting sin and satan, or if He truly came in the Flesh and was tempted in all things as us and overcame because He trusted His Father's Word's over His own.


Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
Post by: Studyman on December 27, 2018, 10:56:28 AM
This is circular reasoning. He overcame sin as a man, because no man could overcome his own sin?

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Agreed, we ask ourselves "what is wrong with this picture?" It's not credible. And this is not even including the part where he never sinned and so had to become sin apart from himself and die for others? What man could do that?

2nd Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Can a man be made sin and suffer the wrath of God for other's sins? No. That task requires a God man.

You are missing an important fact of this scripture. Jesus didn't make Himself sin for us, His Father made Him sin for us. It was His Father's will that He drank out of this cup. He wanted it taken away. So your sentence is correct if modified to read "That task requires God", which this verse says it did.

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Isaiah 60:16
"Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

A dichotomy? No, because Jesus is God. Not a god, the God Jehovah.

Yes, there is no doubt The Word of God became Flesh. Why did God the Father give Him such Glory? Because He was born with it? Lucky straw?

Or was there another reason.

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9
    Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him[/b], and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    The scriptures say He "became obedient unto death". You say this is because He was God, but the scriptures say it was because He Humbled Himself to God.

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    Your mistake is evident in the fact that if no man could overcome his own sin, then Christ was no mere man.

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    Exactly. That's not taking away any glory from God in Christ the man, because Jesus was God. Unless someone holds to a position that Jesus wasn't God but just a man.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    He either came to earth as a man, or He didn't. The scriptures are clear, He was a "man of sorrows", in all things like unto His Brethren. Are His people not also being "made perfect"?

    Phil. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

    Shall we not also be obedient unto death? "Endure till the end"?

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    Matthew 1:23
    "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

    This man born of a virgin and of God will be known as God with us, God manifested in the flesh, and he would be the living connection of holy God and man because He was both. Through him we would have the intimate fellowship between God and man that we long for.

    Yes, He certainly is the mediator. But He was given Glory by God and given a name above all names for being obedient unto death. For God, this is nothing, satan is no more than a fly, and the flesh is nothing. But for
    a man, in all things as His Brethren, this is a HUGE deal, a Great Victory. Proving, once again, that if we "do" as He instructs; "Man shall Live By Every Word of God" that there is nothing we can not do. But not us, rather, Christ (His Word's) in us. I don't think very many people really believe He came in the Flesh. That why I bought this up.

    Quote
    He had to be more than a man. He had to be a man because he was born of Mary's flesh, plus born of God's Spirit. There was no male human father. You can reject this all you want, but that makes him by nature and birth no mere man.

    I'm not rejecting that Jesus was born with a purpose, by the Spirit of God. I'm rejecting the teaching that He overcame sin and temptations using powers no other human has ever had access to.

     I most certainly believe Jesus was a special man. The Law and Prophets were all about Him. When He came to realize who He was, and what the Word of God said about Him, it must have been fascinating for Him.

    Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Is 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    To actually be the Fulfillment of Scripture, Wow, that's pretty heavy. But the implication that whenever the going got tough, He just kicked in some God Power no other human ever had, I don't believe Jesus cheated in His Victory. He Chose to serve God over His own human mind, all men have that choice. You want to believe He had to be "more" than man to trust His life to His Father? Many do. But I believe that if I trust His Word's fully, that if I'm not distracted by all the other "voices" out there, I will not only be able to overcome sin as instructed, but I will do even greater works that that.

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    )amen(
    Psalms 14:2-3
    "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    And so because there wasn't one single natural man who could overcome his sin, God sent a special man after his nature, who could overcome sin for them. A man born of divine seed, not born of Joseph. As you said, no mere man. Unless you don't believe he was fathered by God and not a man.

    I don't think you are understanding what the Spirit in David is saying here?

    Psalms 14:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people 9Who is God's People?) as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

    5 There were they (God's People) in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. (But you imply this is saying there is no righteous)

    6 Ye ( Is this God's People, or those children of men who are fools?) have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

    7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

    I believe that God creates all men


    So I know Jesus was special, born for a purpose, I just don't believe the scriptures support the religious doctrine that He overcame sin and temptations by accessing powers no human has ever had access to.

    John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.







    [/list]
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Chris on December 27, 2018, 11:18:28 AM
    I believe that God creates all men. So I know Jesus was special, born for a purpose, I just don't believe the scriptures support the religious doctrine that He overcame sin and temptations by accessing powers no human has ever had access to.

    First, I wish you would take a few minutes to learn how to use the quote feature before posting because your messages are even more confusing all jumbled together as one giant quote. See the quote above? That's a quote. This under it is my response to the quote. That's how it works.

    Second, you seem to have taken great pains to avoid answering the question we have given you. It's a simple question. You never answered if you believe in the Trinity? That would give us a better perspective of where you are coming from doctrinally. It would help us understand why you insist on stripping God from being Jesus Christ. Is there some "underlying reason" you won't answer my question concerning the Trinity or was it a mere oversight?  )Say_what(
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Philly Dawg on December 27, 2018, 05:55:09 PM
    Second, you seem to have taken great pains to avoid answering the question we have given you. It's a simple question. You never answered if you believe in the Trinity? That would give us a better perspective of where you are coming from doctrinally. It would help us understand why you insist on stripping God from being Jesus Christ. Is there some "underlying reason" you won't answer my question concerning the Trinity or was it a mere oversight?  )Say_what(

    Chris, It should be obvious by now. Dishonest people sooner or later always show their true colors in the end.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on December 28, 2018, 11:09:42 AM
    I believe that God creates all men. So I know Jesus was special, born for a purpose, I just don't believe the scriptures support the religious doctrine that He overcame sin and temptations by accessing powers no human has ever had access to.

    First, I wish you would take a few minutes to learn how to use the quote feature before posting because your messages are even more confusing all jumbled together as one giant quote. See the quote above? That's a quote. This under it is my response to the quote. That's how it works.

    Second, you seem to have taken great pains to avoid answering the question we have given you. It's a simple question. You never answered if you believe in the Trinity? That would give us a better perspective of where you are coming from doctrinally. It would help us understand why you insist on stripping God from being Jesus Christ. Is there some "underlying reason" you won't answer my question concerning the Trinity or was it a mere oversight?  )Say_what(

    Yes, I am somewhat digitally challenged. It's my intent to have a Biblical discussion about the thread I posted. It seems I have provided an excuse for some to deflect from this discussion. That is unfortunate.

    Also, it usually takes a few posts before religious folks start insulting the poster. You jumped right in. "stripping God from being Jesus Christ" is done nowhere in any of my posts. And you can not find where I have done such a thing. I have posted scriptures which teach My Savior came to earth as a man and dwelt among us. If you are uncomfortable with the scriptures I posted, I can understand that, but why would you make such a claim about me personally? I'm here to examine what the Scriptures say about my Savior. Not engage in insults and ridicule.

    You brought up the trinity. I was sincere and honest about my reason not to allow this doctrinal issue derail the topic of this thread. You are free to post a thread and continue the controversy which began in the Council of Constantinople when the doctrine was introduced into Christianity. I will be glad to share my thoughts on that topic there.

    This thread is about whether the Word of God, the Christ, the creator of all things, became a man in all things as His Brethren, or if He was only man in appearance, and didn't overcome sin and temptation as all men do, By Faith in God the Father. 





    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Erik Diamond on December 28, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
    Quote from: Studyman
    You brought up the trinity. I was sincere and honest about my reason not to allow this doctrinal issue derail the topic of this thread. You are free to post a thread and continue the controversy which began in the Council of Constantinople when the doctrine was introduced into Christianity. I will be glad to share my thoughts on that topic there.

    The trinity is actually related to subject being discussed here. We simply asked you if you believe Trinity that obviously determine your position. A simply yes or no will be appreciated. It is under the impression that you are Jehovah's Witnesses, aren't you?
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Tony Warren on December 28, 2018, 01:05:26 PM
    >>>
     "stripping God from being Jesus Christ" is done nowhere in any of my posts. And you can not find where I have done such a thing. You brought up the trinity. I was sincere and honest about my reason not to allow this doctrinal issue derail the topic of this thread.
    <<<

    Studyman, you must understand that the Trinity is an Integral part of any discussion of Christ as sin-bearer for faithful Christians. Chris introduced the topic of the Trinity because it is relevant to the discussion that "you" introduced. Trying to separate the Father from the Son or the Son from the Spirit is an implied denial of the Trinity. It's pretty evident now that you don't believe in this foundation stone of sound Christian doctrine. The question Chris asked helps us better understand why this doctrine of yours is distorting your vision of the scriptures that have been given you by many posters. In other words, because of your indoctrination, you come with preconceived ideas about the scriptures in question even before they are presented to you. So when you were presented with a Scripture where Christ says "I" will raise this temple in 3 days, you automatically look to separate the Son from the Father, even when the Scripture is clear Christ said He (He is the Son) would do it. Your belief that there is no Trinity controls how you view His response, even when He's quoted word for word. The real point here is that one Scripture cannot contradict another, and so Christ is the one God of creation, the God who would raise up that Temple.

    Philippians 2:5-9

    Who could read that and believe it is not declaring that God in His original form or fashion, humbled Himself and took on the form of man so that He could suffer the death of the cross "for" man. God did that. Only someone predetermined to "not" understand the passage the way it was written would think it doesn't declare this, and unambiguously. Can you send your or God's Spirit as comforter into the world to evangelize whomever God wants? No man can do that, but Christ could because He is God.

    1st John 5:7-8

    God sent His Son and His Spirit into the world that the world through them might be saved. God "alone" is Savior and no one else. This because God is the Father of the Son by the Holy Spirit of whom He was born. That Holy Spirit of God is what seals us through the work of Christ.

    Ephesians 1:13

    Just who saved us? Was it the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? In truth, it was all three because all three are God. There is one God, one name whereby men may be saved, and one Spirit who sealed us. There's no contradiction because the foundation of Christianity is Salvation by Grace of God through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is this one God.

    Isaiah 43:11

    If that is true, then how is Christ Savior? Because Christ is this creator God, according to all of Scripture.


    Quote
    >>>
     You are free to post a thread and continue the controversy which began in the Council of Constantinople when the doctrine was introduced into Christianity.
    <<<

    The so-called controversy didn't start there, it started when Christ said He and the Father (that you quote and speak of), are one! They are the same God. Christ had made Himself God and the Jews understood that (unlike many today) and so wanted to stone Him as a blasphemer for it. These non-believers who heard Him say this rejected this truth as you do, and they picked up stones to stone Him for saying it.

    John 10:30-33

    But He wasn't a mere man as they supposed. The wanted to stone him for the same reason the anti-Trinity folk rejects His very same message. He made Himself to be God, and if this was not true He was indeed guilty of blasphemy. But it was true! Today we call that doctrine that Jesus was God, Christianity. We reject the doctrine introduced by the rebellious Jews that this is blasphemy.

    So the controversy didn't begin with the Council of Constantinople as you suppose, it began the moment Christ came upon the scene as the God-man and the those with hardened hearts rejected this truth of His being God. How could a man control God's Spirit in redemption? Yet Christ sent God's Spirit, and He raised up that Temple in 3 days, and He overcame man's sin, and He made us all alive. It was because of this Trinity who is one God.


    "nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Sportsnut on December 28, 2018, 03:16:30 PM
    The trinity is actually related to subject being discussed here. We simply asked you if you believe Trinity that obviously determine your position. A simply yes or no will be appreciated.

     )iagree(


    Quote
    It is under the impression that you are Jehovah's Witnesses, aren't you?

     )Say_what(
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Roger Dodson on December 29, 2018, 08:02:44 AM
    It's my intent to have a Biblical discussion about the thread I posted. It seems I have provided an excuse for some to deflect from this discussion.

    But without Jesus as God, we have no Savior. We simply have a man who "at best" could only save himself even if he didn't sin. Which in itself is impossible. I don't think you've thought this through.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on December 29, 2018, 10:42:52 AM
     
    Quote
    author=Tony Warren link=topic=3414.msg40888#msg40888 date=1546020326]
    >>>
     "stripping God from being Jesus Christ" is done nowhere in any of my posts. And you can not find where I have done such a thing. You brought up the trinity. I was sincere and honest about my reason not to allow this doctrinal issue derail the topic of this thread.
    <<<

    Studyman, you must understand that the Trinity is an Integral part of any discussion of Christ as sin-bearer for faithful Christians. Chris introduced the topic of the Trinity because it is relevant to the discussion that "you" introduced. Trying to separate the Father from the Son or the Son from the Spirit is an implied denial of the Trinity. It's pretty evident now that you don't believe in this foundation stone of sound Christian doctrine. The question Chris asked helps us better understand why this doctrine of yours is distorting your vision of the scriptures that have been given you by many posters. In other words, because of your indoctrination, you come with preconceived ideas about the scriptures in question even before they are presented to you. So when you were presented with a Scripture where Christ says "I" will raise this temple in 3 days, you automatically look to separate the Son from the Father, even when the Scripture  is clear Christ said He (He is the Son) would do it. Your belief that there is no Trinity controls how you view His response, even when He's quoted word for word. The real point here is that one Scripture cannot contradict another, and so Christ is the one God of creation, the God who would raise up that Temple.

    It is the Scriptures which preach the Christ, the Word of God, was "Made Flesh". The Catholics created many doctrines which can not be supported by "EVERY WORD of God. Since I'm not catholic, I don't pay much attention to their teaching. I really haven't given it much thought since the teaching isn't really dealt with in the Law and Prophets at all, and not much in the NT either.

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    I'm not here to discuss this religious doctrine or that religious doctrine. Catholic's believe one thing, Baptists believe another. In all due respect, I'm not interested in the beliefs of this religious franchise or that. WE are instructed to study His Word, to "seek Him" are we not?

    I agree that one verse in the Bible cannot contradict another.
     
    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.   

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

    18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (Who has the power to raise Him from death)

    Did they destroy the temple? The scriptures say Jesus died, so I  believe the scriptures. Who gave Jesus the Man His Power? You claim He accomplished all these things on His OWN Power. But according to HIS Words, He dedicated His Life to the Will of His Father and according to Him, He received His Power from His Father.

     Which since the Bible teaches He came in the Flesh "in all things" like unto His Brethren, not only makes perfect sense, but aligns with EVERY scripture ever spoken about Him in both Testaments. Because I don't have a "religion" or religious franchise to defend or support, it's a no-brainer for me.
     
    Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven

    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Matt. 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Matt. 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    Matt. 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    I could go on and on and on with the Word's of the Word which became Flesh "in all things like unto His Brethren" relying, trusting, depending, not on His own power as the God of Abraham, but as a man, completely surrendering His Power, laying down HIS Life as the Word of God, to His Father in Heaven.

    Now that His Father in Heaven has Glorified His Son, and given Him the Priesthood, and made Him my High Priest, shall I not surrender (deny) myself and place all my trust, all my faith in Him and His Word's, as He did to His Father? Is this not the faith of Abraham? Did Jesus not exhibit perfect Faith as the man Jesus? Is He not truly the Author of my Faith?

    So what if religious man teaches He didn't overcome sin by the power of Faith? What if religious man tells me He really didn't overcome sin in the flesh, rather, He was God and only overcame sin, not by relying on His Father, but by relying on Himself? 

    Frankly, I don't know how you can suggest He wielded His own power at all, given all the Scriptures which show His deep Faith in His father, yet like many religious doctrines, it is widely taught.

    Do I believe Him when He says His Father gave Him the power to raise Himself after being dead for 3 days and 3 nights? Absolutely.

    He didn't come to earth as God, He came as a Flesh and Blood man, a sheep for the slaughter giving Himself wholly to God the Father.

    Isn't that why His Father Gloried Him and gave Him a name higher that all other names??

    Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    I appreciate your kindness and zeal for Jesus. I mean no offence in this thread. I've been a student of His Word outside the influence(as much as possible) of the various religions of this land for almost 30 years now.

    Not being bound by religious traditions and doctrines of the religions of the land is a very liberating existence. I have found if a person studies His Word seeking Him, outside of other voices, the understanding is different than when hearing the Word of God filtered through this religion or that.

    If a man would just read and study His Word apart from the religious traditions of the land, there would be no "Trinity" or "God Man" or "purgatory" or "Lent" or many, many religious traditions and doctrines of the land.

    The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time worshipped their traditions and "taught for Doctrines the Commandments of man". Our righteousness must exceed theirs as it is written.

    It is not me who sent the Christ, the Word of God, to earth as a man. I didn't create the teaching that the Christ humbled Himself to God the Father. I didn't create the teaching that the Word of God, the creator God of the universe "laid down His Life" and being in the form of a man, humbled Himself to God in obedience to Him unto death.

    I didn't strip the power of God from Jesus the Christ. According to His own Word's, HE did.








    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on December 29, 2018, 11:48:04 AM
    It's my intent to have a Biblical discussion about the thread I posted. It seems I have provided an excuse for some to deflect from this discussion.

    But without Jesus as God, we have no Savior. We simply have a man who "at best" could only save himself even if he didn't sin. Which in itself is impossible. I don't think you've thought this through.

    Jesus didn't "Save Himself", He didn't "Speak His Own Word's", He only saved those who His Father in Heaven gave Him. He prayed to His Father in Faith for every bit of His strength, did He not? His Father gave Him the Power to overcome just as He gave Abraham the same power, Yes?

    It is always difficult to separate religious traditions of man from truth. It is religious tradition which states it is impossible to obey God. God's Word does not teach this. I find it fascinating the implication that the Christ, the Word of God, created Laws so unjust, so burdensome, that it is impossible to comply, yet this same Christ killed thousands who didn't comply. Nevertheless this is mainstream teaching it seems.

    So with this belief as a foundation, it becomes impossible to believe that this Same Christ became Flesh and followed His Own Commandments He gave to man, as a man in all things like unto His Brethren. Like He placed burdens on the shoulders of men that He, as a man, could not move with one finger. I don't believe the scriptures support this implication.

    Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
    4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

    And again;

    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    And again:

    Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    I'm interested in what the Scriptures, the Word of God which Jesus said was "LIFE" says about these things. All of them. Jesus said;

    Matt. 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    Who did Jesus the Man pray to? Himself, or His Father in Heaven? Who did Jesus rely on? Himself, or His Father in Heaven? Whose Word's did He give His people, His Father's, or His own?

    You see the dilemma. If I truly believe that God became Flesh in all things like unto His brethren, which is confirmed by the Law and Prophets.

    Duet. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Ex. 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

    Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

     Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    Then it seems I am believing contrary to the religions of the land. What if the Scriptures are right, and it is the ancient religious doctrines and traditions of the land that are in error?


    I really appreciate your addition to this conversation, and look forward to your reply on the scriptures I have posted. Please understand that I have carefully considered ALL Scriptures regarding the Christ and His Great Sacrifice for His People. I have thought in through and through. I think it is those who don't really believe Jesus came in the Flesh in all things like unto His Brethren that are really not considering the implications of their doctrine.











     
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on December 30, 2018, 08:40:18 AM
    Quote from: OP
    Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    I will answer your question with the word of God.
    Quote from: The apostle Paul
    Romans 8:3~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
    The second Adam did what the first Adam could not do, in that by faith and in obedience to the law of God perfectly fulfilled every jot and title of the words of the Living God.

    Now, what made Jesus the Son of God greater than the first Adam? Adam was created after the image of God in true righteousness, with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, yet God LEFT HIM to himself with one simple little commandment and Adam disobey that commandment and allowed sin to entered into the world. The second Adam was the Lord from Heaven. In what sense was he so? Jesus Christ was a complex person~fully man, YET fully God. The Word in the beginning which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and LIVED in this world in a body of FLESH~per 1st Timothy 3:16...the mystery of godliness!

    These two natures NEVER interchange with each other, or acted TOGETHER, they were ALWAYS separated from each other. Jesus Christ, the Son OF God fulfilled the law of God for us IN THE BODY OF HIS HUMAN FLESH, and THAT perfect body of faith/obedience was offered up to God for our sins. Jesus Christ WAS God, but God WAS NOT Jesus Christ. In order to understand many scriptures, we MUST keep the two natures of Jesus Christ separated, or we will end up teaching heresy.
    Quote from:  Studyman on: Yesterday at 10:42:52
    If a man would just read and study His Word apart from the religious traditions of the land, there would be no "Trinity" or "God Man"
    Sir~ you are wrong.  It is true that The Godhead is ONE GOD, yet manifest to us as THREE ONLY according to each respective work in the salvation of God's elect.

    God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be~he dwells in eternity, period. When we shall see God according to Matthew 5:8~it will be JESUS CHRIST whom we shall see. When this world comes to an end, Jesus Christ shall deliver up the kingdom to God (who IS a Spirit) That God may be all in all~ per 1st Corinthians 15:20-28. Then Jesus Christ shall be subject unto the Father, (as far as his humanity goes) yet, Jesus Christ shall reign as God overall as far as his Divinity goes....again the mystery of godliness can ONLY be understood by keeping Jesus' complex natures SEPARATED.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on December 30, 2018, 09:00:17 AM
    Chris, It should be obvious by now. Dishonest people sooner or later always show their true colors in the end.
    I would be slow accusing a person of being dishonest, it may be just a lack of true knowledge. Charity demands that we think the best of others since we cannot see their hearts. I agree there may come a time when we can judge a person to be dishonest, but we must not rush judging others but be slow in doing so.   
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on December 30, 2018, 10:55:26 AM
    Quote from: OP
    Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    I will answer your question with the word of God.
    Quote from: The apostle Paul
    Romans 8:3~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
    The second Adam did what the first Adam could not do, in that by faith and in obedience to the law of God perfectly fulfilled every jot and title of the words of the Living God.

    Now, what made Jesus the Son of God greater than the first Adam? Adam was created after the image of God in true righteousness, with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, yet God LEFT HIM to himself with one simple little commandment and Adam disobey that commandment and allowed sin to entered into the world. The second Adam was the Lord from Heaven. In what sense was he so? Jesus Christ was a complex person~fully man, YET fully God. The Word in the beginning which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and LIVED in this world in a body of FLESH~per 1st Timothy 3:16...the mystery of godliness!

    These two natures NEVER interchange with each other, or acted TOGETHER, they were ALWAYS separated from each other. Jesus Christ, the Son OF God fulfilled the law of God for us IN THE BODY OF HIS HUMAN FLESH, and THAT perfect body of faith/obedience was offered up to God for our sins. Jesus Christ WAS God, but God WAS NOT Jesus Christ. In order to understand many scriptures, we MUST keep the two natures of Jesus Christ separated, or we will end up teaching heresy.
    Quote from:  Studyman on: Yesterday at 10:42:52
    If a man would just read and study His Word apart from the religious traditions of the land, there would be no "Trinity" or "God Man"
    Sir~ you are wrong.  It is true that The Godhead is ONE GOD, yet manifest to us as THREE ONLY according to each respective work in the salvation of God's elect.

    God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be~he dwells in eternity, period. When we shall see God according to Matthew 5:8~it will be JESUS CHRIST whom we shall see. When this world comes to an end, Jesus Christ shall deliver up the kingdom to God (who IS a Spirit) That God may be all in all~ per 1st Corinthians 15:20-28. Then Jesus Christ shall be subject unto the Father, (as far as his humanity goes) yet, Jesus Christ shall reign as God overall as far as his Divinity goes....again the mystery of godliness can ONLY be understood by keeping Jesus' complex natures SEPARATED.

    Thank you for your kind words and heartfelt reply. My question was: Did Jesus overcome sin as a man, or as God. I believe Paul does indeed answer my question.

    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    What is the Law of the Spirit of life?

    John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    So the Word of God is Spirit and it is Life, and Jesus said we are to "Live by" this Word, Yes?


    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Jesus condemned or overcame sin "in the Flesh", not as an immortal God, or THE immortal God. The Law can not give life. Those who keep it live, those who don't die. Because the Flesh is weak, it allows itself to be influenced by "other voices" which are not Spiritual, like Eve did with the Serpent, and Adam did with Eve. But it's too late now. She broke the Law and the wages of that "work" is death. That is the Law of sin, "the wages of sin is death". Since man is not strong enough to "choose the good" all the time, God became a man, in all things as His brethren, to "be made perfect" as the Word of God is intended to do for all men. And being "made perfect" He offered His Life to pay for the mistakes of those who would Love Him, and "Live by" Every Word of God as He instructed. (Repent)

    Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    The Christ said the very same thing in Ex. 20:6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


    4 That the righteousness of the law (Every Word of God)might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh (Other voices), but after the Spirit. (Word of God)

    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6 For to be carnally minded (Other voices) is death; but to be spiritually minded( Word of god in our mind) is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    This is made evident in the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's Time who He said "Taught for doctrines the commandments of men", not God, and again: "Transgressed the Commandments of God (Spiritual) by their own religious traditions" (Other Voices, Fleshy)

    Quote
    Now, what made Jesus the Son of God greater than the first Adam? Adam was created after the image of God in true righteousness, with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, yet God LEFT HIM to himself with one simple little commandment and Adam disobey that commandment and allowed sin to entered into the world. The second Adam was the Lord from Heaven. In what sense was he so? Jesus Christ was a complex person~fully man, YET fully God. The Word in the beginning which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and LIVED in this world in a body of FLESH~per 1st Timothy 3:16...the mystery of godliness!

    I'm not sure I believe that God made it easier for the second Adam, than He did for the first.

    Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I know how powerful religious tradition is and I'm not here to make judgments. I know men are deceived by religions which come in Christ's/God's Name. I can show the scriptural support for this if you are interested. And it is through these "other voices" that men are convinced to believe things which are not true.

    Consider Adam. The serpent didn't come straight to him, though he was the Goal. The Son of God is always the goal.

    "Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    The Serpent went to Eve, the Woman, the bride, the Church, and through her, it deceived Adam. He let his guard down, Jesus never did. Adam's failure meant death of all mankind, Failure from the Christ would have sealed this death. He took on the sins of the Whole Word, in the Flesh, and overcame for us all. And He showed us the way to overcome as well, by "putting on the Whole Armor of God"

    That is His Great Victory, that is why His Father gave Him such a name.

    Who was it that tricked Adam? Was it not his own wife? Who was it that crucified the second Adam?

    Adam didn't "allow" sin to enter the world, sin was already here. Faith has to be tested and tried to become strong enough to endure. Adam, as an example for all of us, trusted "other voices" to live by. Jesus, the Christ, as the Author of my Faith, trusted only the Voice of His Father.

    Whether God is comprised as 3 separate but equal entities, or is comprised of God the Father, and God the Son and their Spirit, should not in any way deflect from the Great Victory the "Son of Man" suffered for.

    He had great Faith in His Father and accomplished marvelous "works". And if I walk even as He walked, with all my might and with all my soul, I too, will over come sin even as He did, by the power of Faith.

    John 14: 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    I believe in the Christ of the Bible.

    Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


    These are good conversations to have among the brethren. Uncomfortable sometimes, humiliating sometimes, but necessary I believe "till we all come to the unity of the Faith">

     Thanks for the PM Red. I was not able to reply for some reason, though I tried.






    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on December 30, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
    Jesus condemned or overcame sin "in the Flesh", not as an immortal God, or THE immortal God. The Law can not give life. Those who keep it live, those who don't die. Because the Flesh is weak, it allows itself to be influenced by "other voices" which are not Spiritual, like Eve did with the Serpent, and Adam did with Eve. But it's too late now. She broke the Law and the wages of that "work" is death. That is the Law of sin, "the wages of sin is death". Since man is not strong enough to "choose the good" all the time, God became a man, in all things as His brethren, to "be made perfect" as the Word of God is intended to do for all men. And being "made perfect" He offered His Life to pay for the mistakes of those who would Love Him, and "Live by" Every Word of God as He instructed. (Repent)
    Some of your use of certain scriptures makes little sense to me, and I will add, does not add light to your opening post.

    I understand from the holy scriptures that Jesus Christ secured eternal life for his seed as a man~yet, he did what Adam could not do, because he was the Son OF GOD, the Lord from heaven. You seem to reject this and use scriptures which has no bearing on the opening post~I have read your post more than once, trust I'm not missing something. Do you understand the differences between the two Adam's? I DO understand that our free gift of salvation was secured by Jesus as a MAN, yet, he was MORE than man, he was the Son of God~God's only begotten Son. Adam was not begotten but created and then God left him to himself to obey one little commandment, and he was disobedience. Jesus was NOT created but conceived by the power of the Highest and thus the Word from the beginning, which WAS GOD joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world for around thirty-three plus years as a representative of the Elect seed of God's promises of grace, secured by two immutable acts of God, his promises and oath accomplished by Jesus Christ's obedience as the second Adam.

    What I see and understand that the scriptures will support that you do not see is this: "Jesus' divine and the human natures, were identified in his person, as the one Mediator between God and man; equally related to, and identified with both. On the one point, embodying all the fullness of the infinite and eternal Godhead; and on the other, he took on him the seed of Abraham, with all our infirmities, liabilities and responsibilities. In these two distinct, yet consolidated natures he fully represented and embodied all things which are in him in heaven, and all things on earth that belong to his mystical body."  Do you believe this? If not, please explain your differences so I can better understand exactly what you do believe. I thank you in advance for you seriously considering this question.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on December 31, 2018, 04:49:34 AM
    Studyman while I'm waiting for your answer I'll give you a couple of quotes from a godly voice in the past concerning Jesus Christ:
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Mediatorial Work of Christ~The man Christ Jesus, embodying in his person all that his names and titles mean or signify, as God, Man and Mediator, was manifest in the flesh, came in the flesh, was made flesh, and dwelt among us; and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He “was put to death in the flesh;” not simply his flesh put to death, but his flesh as it stood identified with his Sonship; “was put to death in the flesh;” so that it was the Son of God, as well as the son of the virgin Mary, that bare our sins in his own body on the cross, and who, in the accomplishment of what the Father gave him to do, “gave himself a ransom.” Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Again:
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    Person of Christ~Jesus Christ is the “Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.” That besides God there is no Savior; that in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that he is uncreated, underived, self-existent, independent and eternal. There is not an attribute ascribed to the Eternal Father that we do not ascribe to Jesus Christ. In a created Savior we have neither faith nor confidence. We hold that our Savior is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Almighty. And we also hold that he sustains the character, office and relationship of Mediator between God and men, in which he is one with the Father, and his church one with him. That he stood in this Mediatorial relation to his church, her Head, Life, and Immortality, before the world began, and even from everlasting. And farther, we believe that when he made his advent to this world, he was made of a woman - made under the law, and his children being partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. That he was put to death in the flesh, and that he arose from the dead, the third day, according to the Scriptures, and that he ascended up into heaven in that body and flesh in which he was crucified, and which did not see corruption. Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    I find this holy confession to be true to the word of God, do you? If not, please show me why it is not.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on December 31, 2018, 04:59:11 AM
    Studyman while I'm waiting for your answer I'll give you a couple of quotes from a godly voice in the past concerning Jesus Christ:
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Mediatorial Work of Christ~The man Christ Jesus, embodying in his person all that his names and titles mean or signify, as God, Man and Mediator, was manifest in the flesh, came in the flesh, was made flesh, and dwelt among us; and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He “was put to death in the flesh;” not simply his flesh put to death, but his flesh as it stood identified with his Sonship; “was put to death in the flesh;” so that it was the Son of God, as well as the son of the virgin Mary, that bare our sins in his own body on the cross, and who, in the accomplishment of what the Father gave him to do, “gave himself a ransom.” Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Again.... 
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    Person of Christ~Jesus Christ is the “Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.” That besides God there is no Savior; that in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that he is uncreated, underived, self-existent, independent and eternal. There is not an attribute ascribed to the Eternal Father that we do not ascribe to Jesus Christ. In a created Savior we have neither faith nor confidence. We hold that our Savior is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Almighty. And we also hold that he sustains the character, office and relationship of Mediator between God and men, in which he is one with the Father, and his church one with him. That he stood in this Mediatorial relation to his church, her Head, Life, and Immortality, before the world began, and even from everlasting. And farther, we believe that when he made his advent to this world, he was made of a woman - made under the law, and his children being partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. That he was put to death in the flesh, and that he arose from the dead, the third day, according to the Scriptures, and that he ascended up into heaven in that body and flesh in which he was crucified, and which did not see corruption. Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    I find these holy confessions to be according to the truth of the scriptures....do you? If not, why not? Sorry, I DID NOT mean to double post this, I'll wake up, after another cup of coffee.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
     author=Red link=topic=3414.msg40904#msg40904 date=1546199270]
     author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40901#msg40901 date=1546185326]Jesus condemned or overcame sin "in the Flesh", not as an immortal God, or THE immortal God. The Law can not give life. Those who keep it live, those who don't die. Because the Flesh is weak, it allows itself to be influenced by "other voices" which are not Spiritual, like Eve did with the Serpent, and Adam did with Eve. But it's too late now. She broke the Law and the wages of that "work" is death. That is the Law of sin, "the wages of sin is death". Since man is not strong enough to "choose the good" all the time, God became a man, in all things as His brethren, to "be made perfect" as the Word of God is intended to do for all men. And being "made perfect" He offered His Life to pay for the mistakes of those who would Love Him, and "Live by" Every Word of God as He instructed. (Repent)[/quote]Some of your use of certain scriptures makes little sense to me, and I will add, does not add light to your opening post.

    Quote
    I understand from the holy scriptures that Jesus Christ secured eternal life for his seed as a man~yet, he did what Adam could not do, because he was the Son OF GOD, the Lord from heaven. You seem to reject this and use scriptures which has no bearing on the opening post~I have read your post more than once, trust I'm not missing something. Do you understand the differences between the two Adam's? I DO understand that our free gift of salvation was secured by Jesus as a MAN, yet, he was MORE than man, he was the Son of God~God's only begotten Son. Adam was not begotten but created and then God left him to himself to obey one little commandment, and he was disobedience. Jesus was NOT created but conceived by the power of the Highest and thus the Word from the beginning, which WAS GOD joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world for around thirty-three plus years as a representative of the Elect seed of God's promises of grace, secured by two immutable acts of God, his promises and oath accomplished by Jesus Christ's obedience as the second Adam.

    You are making an assumption that Adam "couldn't" trust God's Word over those of His Wife. I would argue that he was perfectly capable to listen and obey, but didn't, not because He couldn't. I reject The teaching that Adam did not have the capacity to turn to His Creator and seek His Council when he was offered sin. There is a lesson regarding the mind of man here to be sure, but the lesson isn't that it was impossible for Adam to "choose the good and reject the Evil". To turn to His Creator for council. The Christ said as much when He spoke with Cain.

    Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Adam had a choice, not because I believe so, but because my Savior's Word's say so and I believe in Him. You have nothing to support your belief that Adam wasn't created as a young boy or even a baby. There is nothing to support a belief that He hadn't lived 30 years with Eve in the garden before they were tempted. The scriptures say one day is as a thousand years to God. So Biblically speaking, your assertion that Adam "Couldn't" trust God can not be confirmed.

    In the same manner, you assert that Jesus was "begotten" at birth.

    Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Heb. 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

    Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Was Jesus able to "love righteousness" at the age of 1?

    Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I do not dispute that the Word of God became Flesh. What I question is the teaching that the power Jesus the man was given to resist temptation was not also given to Adam. They both had a "choice", one chose his own mind over the Word of God, and the other chose the Word of God over his own mind. One was cast out of the garden, the other was given a name greater that every name and sit's at the right hand of God the Father.

    I reject The implication, given all the scriptures which teach against it, that God became a man and overcame sin, not because He learned to chose the good as a man, but because He used powers no other human has.

    God the Father gave the world His Son in the beginning. "Let there be Light". And this Son created all things according to the instructions of His Father. The plan that His Son would become the perfect sacrifice to give the repentant another chance at "choosing Life" was the plan from the beginning. And the Son humbled Himself to His Father to become "lower than the angels" who are immortal. He risked His Life, not the insignificant human existence that lasted only 30 years, not even a blip in eternity. He risked His immortality, and "laid down His Life" for His Brethren, giving it wholly to His Father in heaven. God is no respecter of persons, Jesus could have chosen Adam's route, but endured tears of blood,  trusting in His Father, and He overcame by this Faith, Not by some supernatural power no other human has ever had.

    This is His Glory. This is His great sacrifice. And the Apostles beheld this Glory.

    Quote
    What I see and understand that the scriptures will support that you do not see is this: "Jesus' divine and the human natures, were identified in his person, as the one Mediator between God and man; equally related to, and identified with both. On the one point, embodying all the fullness of the infinite and eternal Godhead; and on the other, he took on him the seed of Abraham, with all our infirmities, liabilities and responsibilities. In these two distinct, yet consolidated natures he fully represented and embodied all things which are in him in heaven, and all things on earth that belong to his mystical body."  Do you believe this? If not, please explain your differences so I can better understand exactly what you do believe. I thank you in advance for you seriously considering this question.

    If all this means that Jesus didn't overcome sin and temptation as a Flesh and Blood human being like unto His Brethren, then no I don't believe it and the scriptures don't confirm.

    1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, (As did the Man Jesus) that he may exalt you in due time (As He did the Man Jesus.

    7 Casting all your care upon him( As did Jesus the Man)  for he careth for you.

    8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

    10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, (As did Jesus the Man) make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. ( as Jesus the Man was also "made perfect")

    11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


    If all this means He was certainly the God of Abraham, who humbled Himself in the form of mortal man, and through complete Faith in His Father and His Word's, overcame sin and temptation, and became the Author of my Faith, then I do believe it.

    1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, (As did Jesus the Man) in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (As did the Man Jesus)

    Shall I not trust these Words?


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 01, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
    You are making an assumption that Adam "couldn't" trust God's Word over those of His Wife. I would argue that he was perfectly capable to listen and obey, but didn't, not because He couldn't.
    I'm going to start answering but must leave shortly, whatever I do not answer, I will upon coming back from Atlanta talking some grandsons back home.

    I never said that Adam could not obey God, for the scriptures said that when God was finished with all he had made, behold, it was very good. God created Adam and placed him in a perfect environment, with all that he needed to continue in the state in which he was created~after all he was created after God's image, in righteousness, with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. What God did not do for Adam was to SECURED him in the state in which he was created, but left him to obey one simple commandment, which as we know he did not. God KNEW that Adam and Eve would fall, without him securing Adam in his state of not sinning. How do I know this?
    Quote from: The apostle Peter
    1st Peter 1:2~"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
    God ALONE is immutable and cannot sin~ God knew this from the beginning and also knew that UNLESS he had an election, then NO ONE would have been saved from sin and condemnation, NO ONE. This includes both man and the elect angels~1st Timothy 5:21

    So, I never assumed what you said that I did. God gave Adam ALL that he needed to NOT sin, yet Adam was disobedience. I'm convinced the very hour that God left him and Eve to themselves they sinned.  I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither do you.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 02:01:01 PM
    I reject The teaching that Adam did not have the capacity to turn to His Creator and seek His Council when he was offered sin.
    No one said that he did not have a free will, because HE DID....until he sinned, and then he lost that free will to chose between true SPIRITUAL wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and his children after him~per Genesis 5:3

    I'll return later and finish~I just wanted to start to let you know that I did read your post and will answer it in full.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 01, 2019, 08:26:51 AM
    Studyman while I'm waiting for your answer I'll give you a couple of quotes from a godly voice in the past concerning Jesus Christ:
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Mediatorial Work of Christ~The man Christ Jesus, embodying in his person all that his names and titles mean or signify, as God, Man and Mediator, was manifest in the flesh, came in the flesh, was made flesh, and dwelt among us; and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He “was put to death in the flesh;” not simply his flesh put to death, but his flesh as it stood identified with his Sonship; “was put to death in the flesh;” so that it was the Son of God, as well as the son of the virgin Mary, that bare our sins in his own body on the cross, and who, in the accomplishment of what the Father gave him to do, “gave himself a ransom.” Gilbert Beebe~Saviour & Salvation, 1854
    Again:
    Quote from: Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    Person of Christ~Jesus Christ is the “Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.” That besides God there is no Savior; that in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that he is uncreated, underived, self-existent, independent and eternal. There is not an attribute ascribed to the Eternal Father that we do not ascribe to Jesus Christ. In a created Savior we have neither faith nor confidence. We hold that our Savior is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Almighty. And we also hold that he sustains the character, office and relationship of Mediator between God and men, in which he is one with the Father, and his church one with him. That he stood in this Mediatorial relation to his church, her Head, Life, and Immortality, before the world began, and even from everlasting. And farther, we believe that when he made his advent to this world, he was made of a woman - made under the law, and his children being partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. That he was put to death in the flesh, and that he arose from the dead, the third day, according to the Scriptures, and that he ascended up into heaven in that body and flesh in which he was crucified, and which did not see corruption. Gilbert Beebe~Reply to Charges, 1857
    I find this holy confession to be true to the word of God, do you? If not, please show me why it is not.

    1 Cor. 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    44 It is sown a natural body (Jesus the Man) it is raised a spiritual body. (Jesus the Risen Christ) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    The Man Jesus, the "man of sorrows", who experienced fear, pain, sorrow, is no longer Flesh, but a Spiritual body who sit's on the right hand of God where there is no sorrow, no pain, no fear. The "man" Jesus, who can be hounded, persecuted, tortured, bleeds, feels Pain and fear is gone, given a Spiritual Body, the "firstfruit" of many bodies which He and His Father will also raise from the dead.

    "There is not an attribute ascribed to the Eternal Father that we do not ascribe to Jesus Christ"

    The Scriptures do not say He was made in all things like unto His Father in heaven, rather, that He was "made" in "ALL THINGS" like unto His Brethren, the seed of Abraham. God does not need to "learn" obedience, man does.

    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    If God were to become a man and dwell among us, He would walk like Jesus walked. He would live like Jesus lived. He would speak as Jesus spoke. Jesus the "Man" is that God which became Flesh as dwelt among us.

    Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

    What Faith Did Jesus exhibit that I should Walk in Him? He is the Gate, His Word's are Life, Yes? If I want to know how to pray, I ask the Christ Jesus. If I want to know who I really am, I ask the Christ Jesus. If I want to know what Holy is, I ask the Christ Jesus. If I want to know what Righteousness is, I ask the Christ Jesus. His Word's from Genesis to Revelation show me the way. His Spirit gives me the strength to follow them.

    Why??? Because like me, He became a man and dwelt among us. And as a man, He overcame sin and temptation. He is truly the way. And He gave me many examples of those who trusted Him in Faith, and those who didn't for my edification and admonition.

    Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    I am not going to pay much attention to the preachers of the various religions of the land, rather, I believe we should follow the instructions of the Christ Jesus and "Live by" Every Word of God.

    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    There are many preachers who have taught in Christ's Name over the years. The doctrines and religious traditions of religious men are countless. But are we not warned from the very beginning not to rely on "other voices"?

    My Lord once told me.

    Duet 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Word which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, (A choice) blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

    Didn't the first and second Adam have this same choice? And don't I also have this same choice?


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 01, 2019, 10:15:03 AM
    You are making an assumption that Adam "couldn't" trust God's Word over those of His Wife. I would argue that he was perfectly capable to listen and obey, but didn't, not because He couldn't.
    I'm going to start answering but must leave shortly, whatever I do not answer, I will upon coming back from Atlanta talking some grandsons back home.

    I never said that Adam could not obey God, for the scriptures said that when God was finished with all he had made, behold, it was very good. God created Adam and placed him in a perfect environment, with all that he needed to continue in the state in which he was created~after all he was created after God's image, in righteousness, with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. What God did not do for Adam was to SECURED him in the state in which he was created, but left him to obey one simple commandment, which as we know he did not. God KNEW that Adam and Eve would fall, without him securing Adam in his state of not sinning. How do I know this?
    Quote from: The apostle Peter
    1st Peter 1:2~"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
    God ALONE is immutable and cannot sin when tempted~he knew this and also knew that UNLESS he had an election, then NO ONE would have been saved from sin and condemnation, NO ONE. This includes both man and the elect angels~1st Timothy 5:21

    So, I never assumed what you said that I did. God gave Adam ALL that he needed to NOT sin, yet Adam was disobedience. I'm convinced the very hour that God left him and Eve to themselves they sinned.  I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither do you.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 02:01:01 PM
    I reject The teaching that Adam did not have the capacity to turn to His Creator and seek His Council when he was offered sin.
    No one said that he did not have a free will, because HE DID....until he sinned, and then he lost that free will to chose between true SPIRITUAL wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and his children after him~per Genesis 5:3

    I'll return later and finish~I just wanted to start to let you know that I did read your post and will answer it in full.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. You said Jesus did what Adam "couldn't do". I was responding to your word's here. I didn't mean to interpret the sentence wrong. You probably meant what Adam "didn't" do. Please accept my apologies if I mistook your words.

    I so much appreciate the conversation and your tone. It is my desire to discuss the doctrine by examining every Word of God. I don't trust religions given the examples the Christ had written for me.

    I understand the teaching that God gave Jesus special powers no other human had access to. I followed religions which believed this for a long time. But the more I study myself into the Word, the less I believe this religious doctrine.

    You are implying, once again, that Jesus didn't have the same choice Adam had. That God treated His son Adam differently than His Son Jesus. That Adam was left on his own in his struggle with the wiles of satan, while Jesus was given special treatment. Then this same God praised and Glorified Jesus for enduring in His protected "secured" environment, while Adam is forever cursed with the legacy of the fall of mankind because God didn't protect him.

    On its face, it doesn't reflect the impartial judgment of God, and the scriptures don't support it either.

    I think a lot of this hinges on the topic of this thread. Do folks REALLY believe God came in the Flesh "in all things as His Brethren" or not.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    The scriptures say God knows the end from the beginning.

    Is. 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    God knew Adam would fall because in God's realm, it already happened. God knew Abraham would listen and obey Him because in God's realm, it already happened. God created time, He is not ruled by it, but we are. He holds time in His Hand. God knows what I will choose before I choose it because in His realm, it has already happened. This doesn't mean He gives me special powers no one else has. Or that He is a respecter of persons, it means He holds Time in the palm of His Hand and to Him the end has already happened, it just hasn't been made manifest to us yet.

    Matt. 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Not Jesus the man, not God's created angels, no one but the creator of time knows the end from the beginning. Jesus was the Creator of Time, who became a man in all things like unto His Brethren, lower than the angels. Jesus the man did not know the end from the beginning. He knew what was written about Him, and He saw the scriptures come to life. But since He was a man, and not God, He didn't know the end from the beginning.


    Peter isn't saying God made Adam fall, or made Abraham trust in Him enough to obey Him, rather, that God knew Abraham, like Peter, would "deny himself" take up his cross and follow the Christ because God knows the end from the beginning. And God knew Adam would not choose His Word's over his wife's, because to God, he already made the choice.

    And Jesus also believed in this.

    Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Who knows the end from the beginning)







    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Philly Dawg on January 01, 2019, 12:38:36 PM
    Beware those who can't believe Jesus is God, the Jehovah Witnesses, they are a Heresy, a snare and an offense to God.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lower on January 01, 2019, 02:53:47 PM

    2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (As did the Man Jesus)

    Shall I not trust these Words?

    But the Man Jesus is not like one of those who, as this specific scripture indicates, call on the name of Christ? He is not because He is also the God!

    From your long list of scripture references, we can see that you are discussing issues which does not lead you to answering even the question of your own. All your quoted scriptures are describing how Christ as a Man was "obedient" to God the Father and that He was indeed the "lamb" of God - which none of the people here denied.

    But all of that doesn't mean that Jesus is not the Son of God (i.e. He as the second person of the TRINITY was also God incarnate). In the New Testament Lord Jesus addresses Himself both as: "Son of God", and "Son of Man". Do you understand that the Son of God is "one with the Father" because He is God, to whom, the Man Jesus was praying (or as you have also mentioned became dependent, relied upon and obeyed)? And Lord Jesus is not just the Son of Man but at the same time the Son of God? As the Son of God, we believe that He is one with the Father - this is the focal point you seemed to ignore, and ignorantly deny! Yes, regardless of your claim of learning about the issue from God's word, you avoided and denied everything that is brought to you from the Word of God that prove you are wrong!

    Joh 10:30 I [Christ Jesus Speaking] and my Father are one.

    Judge by yourself: has Jesus made Himself 'equal' with the Father-God as Man or as God? Does He sound like every other creature, or, one Who speaks as God Himself in the flesh?

    Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    The Son in Mat 28:19 is one of the persons of the TRINITY. This is one of the scripture that you avoided in your discussion. Instead you went off topic, till the like you forgot the main issue yourself asked, and swerved into inducing the another issue of blaming religions to cover up your errors in order to escape from truth.

    Is that because you are new in this forum? No. Because every person who joined here understands that (through reading the statement of faith on the website, if not only the rules and regulations to this forum) this is a site developed by Bible Discerning Christians who have no time for the traditions of men!

    Why don't you answer the question asked repeatedly? Are you from 'the tradition' of JW? Do you or do you not believe in the TRINITY? Why did the Lord Jesus - when He was in the flesh - identify Himself not only as the "Son of Man", but also; as the "Son of God", as "One with the Father" and as "One of the three persons of the One God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

    Few points I want to share with you (I will be happy to hear your idea these, if you could also write specifically to each point):

    a) - When Jesus came in the flesh (became man), He didn't become like one us in terms of power and authority, but only like one of us in likeness and in testing the suffering of this world! As you believe the Word of God that specifically teach about Him being like us, you should also be attentive to those parts that teach about Him that He was able to do what the Father can, because He is God incarnate.

    Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    b) - Jesus is not from this creation! He was before the foundation of this world! He is the "Only" Begotten Son!

    Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
    Pro 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    c) - "flesh is weak" in the scripture below refers to the condition of all sinners because they are the children of Adam "who love to walk after the desires of the flesh" and by nature the children of wrath. (this has nothing to do with the Man Jesus who came without sin and who cannot sin!)

    Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
    Mar 14:38  Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

    I do understand however that Lord Jesus suffered and became weak on behalf of sinners. He was put in place of many - He bare heavy loads that no other individual can do - that means we are not to view Him as mere human being. As it is said, and I will put it this way: do not undermine Christ and His suffering.

    d) - to believe in the name of Christ is to believe in God. Lordship salvation is a teaching in the Word of God that salvation is by believing Jesus is the Lord God. I have noticed you said in your replies that you didn't attempt to tear Christ Jesus off the Godhead. Now, the main reason you received responses is because you deny the very simple truth that the Almighty God and the fulnesss of the Godhead did indeed indwell in the "Man Jesus". And He was given all power and authority over all that He never put Himself as a mere Man as you did portray Him and as you wanted us to believe that all He did when He was on earth as a Man was only following the prayers He made to the Father!

    Mat 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    (Jesus as a Man had power that belonged to God only!)

    Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    (No other man but Jesus can do this and many other things that we can't, such as the walking on water, raising corpse of a man buried for four days.) (If you think this happened only because Jesus prayed to the Father and not because He has the power to alter Himself, then you must bring any evidence where other men who could do that by praying to the Father. No one can do that, not even any one of the three men that were with Him in the mountain and saw Him transfigure. Only Jesus can because He is God incarnate)

    2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    To believe in Christ is to believe in the TRINITY; to believe that He is both Man and God - the only perfect Man who pleased God the father; and the Only perfect God that does all things as He intends, according to His will and purpose. There is no reason for you to deny the role of deity of Christ Jesus in salvation. OR, you will have to sit down and think about why you have become like one of the men who, because of their tradition, rejected Jesus as God incarnate and usually murmured whenever He reveals His Head as God to them.

    Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Mat 9:3  And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

    Joh 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lower on January 01, 2019, 04:25:02 PM
    Hello Studyman

    Please don't repeat the notion that you fled from religious doctrines to be a 'Bible Only' student. You have said that a dozen times. If you believe what the Word of God said only: then why deny that Jesus and the Father are one?

    Why did you, as you continuously did in your earlier posts, address Jesus as "the Word of God" and never wanted to call Him "Lord" or "God"?

    Lord is a title of God and Jesus required it from believers. Because He is one and equal with God.

    Stephen prayed to Jesus (calls Him Lord, not "word of God"), because Jesus and God are One!

    Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Read below how Thomas addressed Jesus. He said my Lord and my God. Because the Man Jesus and the God are One.

    Joh 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
    Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

    The first Adam was not entitled of anything the Lord only has. Do not equate Lord Jesus with the first Man - Adam. If you believe Jesus' word, then believe the truth that He was equal with God, not with Adam. That is what God's word command us, to call Him Lord and God! Because He is the "Only" begotten "Son of God".
    But I know you are a denier and you cannot call Him Lord and God knowing that He and the Father are One. (Like I said above you are not different from those who pick their tradition over the word of God. They denied Him as a Son of God, you are doing the same by equating Lord Jesus with Adam instead of believing the Word of God that clearly teaches that He and the Father are one!)

    I don't know how you meant by your I only follow God's word thing but it seems you like self-interpretation; and running away from truth through avoidance of the important places that should prove you wrong. That way you simply are approving yourself in your own eyes. You lack wisdom but in the eyes of God!

    (unlike the first Adam) When Lord Jesus was on earth He - the Son of Man - was on earth because He came from Heaven. When the Son of Man was on earth, at the same time He was also in Heaven. That's because He is both God and Man. Do you believe what the Word of God says, do you believe Joh 3:13?

    Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    (I don't know why you misguided yourself by using the phrase 'Son of God' when you took that only to equate Lord Jesus with the first Adam! And you never seemed to mind the Word of God that teach they are indeed quite different - look below that Jesus uses the phrase "Son of God" to mean that He is one with the Father. Of course, by "Son of God" Jesus is referring to the person of the TRINITY, namely "the Son" in Mat 28:19. But like the Jews, Sadducees and Pharisees; the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Muslims, etc ... you cannot accept that. You see Lord Jesus as a mere man and as one of the prophets only, as one and equal with Adam. And you claim you are not like them 'in the land' who cling to doctrines of men is amazing to me!)
     
    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.
    Joh 10:31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    Joh 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    Joh 10:35  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    Joh 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Joh 10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    Joh 10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    "Son of God" is title of the second person of the TRINITY. But you used it as a replacement for the Son of Man and also as a title for Adam? This title is specifically used to address God, in the same manner God the Father, or God the Son, the Holy Spirit is used to refer to God.

    Son of God is a title only Jesus takes because He is God. Adam is not. But there is one part in the new testament which speaks of Adam as the Son of God - to indicate that He was created by God in His image. Nothing more nothing less - it is just to put the roots that led to the flesh that was used by God to build the body of Jesus (Luk 3:23 - 38). And since there was no Adam before the first Adam was created, the word of God puts him as a Son of God.

    However as we can learn from the scriptures above, the "Son of God" means God and it is a title like the title "Lord" that must be used when addressing God and only God.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 02, 2019, 05:36:59 AM
    There is a lesson regarding the mind of man here to be sure, but the lesson isn't that it was impossible for Adam to "choose the good and reject the Evil".
    Let us say this: God in his infinite wisdom created Adam very good, without a sin nature, and left him to be obedience to the God who created him, to prove to us that God alone in his Godhead as an eternal infinite Spirit ALONE cannot be tempted to sin, but is a Spirit that loves righteousness, and hates iniquity.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    There is a lesson regarding the mind of man here to be sure, but the lesson isn't that it was impossible for Adam to "choose the good and reject the Evil".
    Well it was impossible, but the fault is with is the man, NOT GOD~ God made man after his own image as I said above. The difference in the first covenant works with Adam as the head of his posterity and the second covenant of grace, with Christ the head of his chosen seed, is that God laid help upon one GREATER than the first Adam, his own Son, who SECURED his seed a right to eternal life by his faith and obedience, being the Son of the Living God~who shared his own NATURE being ONE with his Father. The blood that Jesus shed was the blood of God that purchased eternal redemption for the elect of God.
    Quote from: The Holy Ghost
    Acts 20:28~"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    Adam's blood was not the blood of God, but his own~Jesus' blood was the blood of God since he was begotten of God in the womb of a virgin named Mary~Jesus Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God in the sense in which he was begotten.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    Adam had a choice, not because I believe so, but because my Savior's Word's say so and I believe in Him.
    Never said Adam did not have a choice, he did, and his choice caused sin to passed upon ALL men and the condemnation that came with him sinning. You can thank Adam for you being born with a sinful nature and at enmity (not just an enemy, but AT ENMITY against God which is much worse!) against God from the womb!
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    You have nothing to support your belief that Adam wasn't created as a young boy or even a baby.
    God created a MAN placed him in a garden TO DRESS and KEEP IT, which young children are not able to do and certainly not infants!
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    There is nothing to support a belief that He hadn't lived 30 years with Eve in the garden before they were tempted.
    There is....God ALONE is immutable and he alone CANNOT be tempted to sin. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex body~his humanity alone could be tempted, his Divinity could not be tempted. The serpent tempted Eve the very day God left them to themselves~there is NO GAP between the creation of Eve and the serpent tempting Eve! There's no history recorded for us of them living in the garden from their creation to man's fall~no doubt for a reason for us to consider.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    In the same manner, you assert that Jesus was "begotten" at birth.
    I assert nothing, but only can give to you the record of God's word to us. He was not begotten AT BIRTH, but nine months earlier in the womb of a virgin named Mary according to LUKE 1:26-38!
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Heb. 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

    Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    These scriptures you are quoting DO NOT refer to the time that Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary, but to his BODILY RESURRECTION from the dead! You need to read them again with a better understanding.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    Was Jesus able to "love righteousness" at the age of 1?

    Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I do not dispute that the Word of God became Flesh. What I question is the teaching that the power Jesus the man was given to resist temptation was not also given to Adam. They both had a "choice", one chose his own mind over the Word of God, and the other chose the Word of God over his own mind. One was cast out of the garden, the other was given a name greater that every name and sit's at the right hand of God the Father.
    Again, Jesus alone had a complex nature~BOTH God and man, and AS man he LEARNED obedience and grew in wisdom, etc. Though a man, he was God's Son, conceived by the power of the Highest, and he ALONE lived in the flesh in perfect obedience and perfect faith in his Father's word~NOT for himself alone, but for his Father's elect people given to him to redeem~per John 17~And as a man he understood his purpose of being sent into the world.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    God the Father gave the world His Son in the beginning. "Let there be Light". And this Son created all things according to the instructions of His Father.
    You're confused. Jesus Christ in his divine nature IS the I AM THAT I AM~the Everlasting Father of ALL THINGS, per Isaiah 9:6.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
    The plan that His Son would become the perfect sacrifice to give the repentant another chance at "choosing Life" was the plan from the beginning.
    Again you are in error~Jesus' life, death and resurrection did not just give the repentant ANOTHER CHANCE at "choosing Life", but TOTALLY SECURED life for God's elect per Romans 5:12-21; Psalm 89; etc. !

    Enough for now....Red
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 02, 2019, 11:08:24 AM
    Beware those who can't believe Jesus is God, the Jehovah Witnesses, they are a Heresy, a snare and an offense to God.

    As I have already said, I am not a JW, or a Catholic or any of her daughters, nor do I belong to any religious franchise. I am simply on this forum, not to insult, ridicule or label people, but to examine All Scriptures in the pursuit of Biblical Truth. If you have something constructive to add, like God's Word's, please post them for discussion.

    The Bible says the Christ, The Word of God, the creator of all things, became a Man and dwelt among us. I believe this. If that offends you, then your beef is with the Word of God.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


    2 John 2:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Diane Moody on January 02, 2019, 01:35:37 PM
    The Bible says the Christ, The Word of God, the creator of all things, became a Man and dwelt among us. I believe this. If that offends you, then your beef is with the Word of God.


    I don't know about him, but I am offended by your manipulation of scripture to suit your own purposes and ignoring scriptures that don't fit into the box you have constructed. Anyone can post scripture, ignore someone else's scriptures, and then proclaim to be following the word. You obviously are not because you can't reconcile our scriptures with the ones you list. Which by the way, no one denies. But you deny Jesus was not only a man but actually God in the flesh, which scripture clearly teaches. Then you attempt to claim the Trinity is not in scripture but was put there by a group of Catholics, also not defensible. You should worry less about labels and more about the truth. Studyman is an inappropriate label for you.


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 02, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
    As I have already said, I am not a JW, or a Catholic or any of her daughters, nor do I belong to any religious franchise. I am simply on this forum, not to insult, ridicule or label people, but to examine All Scriptures in the pursuit of Biblical Truth. If you have something constructive to add, like God's Word's, please post them for discussion.

    The Bible says the Christ, The Word of God, the creator of all things, became a Man and dwelt among us. I believe this. If that offends you, then your beef is with the Word of God.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


    2 John 2:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    Sir, the scriptures quoted are wonderful scriptures, they have a meaning much deeper than you are seeing I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. The spirit of antichrist that Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John said that would come, has come and still is coming with greater power than in any point of the church's history since the days of Christ. One of the many doctrines that they shall bring are ones that deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and this is done in more ways than one.

    I have a few questions for you and they are: Was Jesus Christ fully man and fully God in one body? Did in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that in one true biblical sense Jesus Christ is uncreated, underived, self-existent, independent and eternal? Do you believe when Jesus said:
    Quote from: John
    John 10:30-33~"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
    Jesus Christ was a complex person FULLY man~FULLY God in one body. Do you truly believe that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Almighty? Do you believe John when he said that he had seen with his eyes and his hands handled the Word of life, which was with the Father as far as being ONE with him in his Divine nature?
    Quote from: John
    1st John 1:1-3~That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
    The Godhead IS ONE according to their Divine nature, yet manifest to us AS THREE "only" according to each respective work in the salvation of God's elect and in the order of carrying out that work. So, bottom line~ Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD and eternal life per 1st John 5:20~The ONLY God we will ever see is JESUS CHRIST per Matthew 5:8~God is a Spirit that inhabiteth eternity, always has, always will. When Jesus Christ walked this earth God was seen for the FIRST TIME by men and angels.
    Quote from: Paul
    1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
    God is so great in glory and light that not even angels have or, can see him.
    Quote from: Paul
    1st Timothy 6:18~"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
    Jesus Christ IS the very express image of God the Father.
    Quote from: Paul
    Colossians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
    Studyman, is this the Jesus you believe in or is it another Jesus?
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 02, 2019, 05:43:03 PM


    Quote
    But the Man Jesus is not like one of those who, as this specific scripture indicates, call on the name of Christ? He is not because He is also the God!

    He didn't worship Himself, but He did Worship God did He not. And was He sitting on the Right Hand of God when He was walking the earth dwelling among men? And where is this same Jesus now? Did His Father not glorify Him and give Him a name above all other names? Shall I not call on His Name as He called on His Father's name?

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    From your long list of scripture references, we can see that you are discussing issues which does not lead you to answering even the question of your own. All your quoted scriptures are describing how Christ as a Man was "obedient" to God the Father and that He was indeed the "lamb" of God - which none of the people here denied.

    The question I posted was did Jesus overcome sin and satan as a Flesh and Blood man, in all things like unto His Brethren? Or did He overcome sin by accessing Godly powers, when the going got tough, that no other human has ever had access to? I see how some are trying to change the question to "Was Jesus God". There is no doubt that Jesus is the Word of God, the Creator God of the Bible, the God of Abraham which became Flesh. I have never suggested anything differently. My question was, did Jesus overcome as God, or as man? Did His Father Glorify Him because as a man He was obedient unto death, or because He was God?


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    But all of that doesn't mean that Jesus is not the Son of God (i.e. He as the second person of the TRINITY was also God incarnate). In the New Testament Lord Jesus addresses Himself both as: "Son of God", and "Son of Man". Do you understand that the Son of God is "one with the Father" because He is God, to whom, the Man Jesus was praying (or as you have also mentioned became dependent, relied upon and obeyed)? And Lord Jesus is not just the Son of Man but at the same time the Son of God? As the Son of God, we believe that He is one with the Father - this is the focal point you seemed to ignore, and ignorantly deny! Yes, regardless of your claim of learning about the issue from God's word, you avoided and denied everything that is brought to you from the Word of God that prove you are wrong

    Joh 10:30 I [Christ Jesus Speaking] and my Father are one.

    Can you show me even one place where I even implied that Jesus wasn't the Son of God? Also, if this verse you posted was the only scripture in the Bible which describes who Jesus was, then you might be able to make the case that Jesus came to earth as God. But it isn't.

    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

    John 17: 16 They (Men who God the father gave to Jesus) are not of the world, even as I (The Word of God which became Flesh) am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me ( Jesus the Man) into the world, even so have I also sent them (Those Men God gave Him) into the world.

    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (The Word's of the Father)

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    So Jesus is saying that I, a human being, can be one with Him and His Father, "AS HE" is one with His Father. Will He make me a God? What does it mean to be "One with the Father"? That they are both God's? And if your preaching on this is correct, then how can I, a human, also be one with the Father?

    Which is why I asked the question; "Who's righteousness did Jesus follow? His own, or His fathers? Whose doctrines did Jesus teach? His own or His Fathers? Who strengthened Him, His own power, or the power of His Father? Who did He pray to when He was weak? Himself, or His Father. Who gave Him the power to resurrect Lazarus?

    So if He came to earth as God as you preach, then why did He completely rely on His father for everything He said, everything He did, everything He knew?

    He said "Not My will, but thy Will be done" But wait a minute? If He came to earth as God, why can't He do His Will? If "I am My Father are one" means Jesus and God were the same, then why does Jesus defer to the Will of His Father and not His own?

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    Jesus the man relied on His Father's Word's for everything. What was clean, Holy, Righteous, Lawful. Jesus truly "denied Himself, picked up His cross, and Followed His Father, that same way He instructed us to deny our self, pick up our cross and Follow Him.

     If I do this as He instructed, and deny my own thoughts, my own religion that I was born into, my own definition of clean, Holy, Righteous, and follow God in these things as did Jesus, then is it not His Word's in me? Is it not Him guiding my footsteps? Him in me? Are Jesus and I not then one just as Him and His Father are one?

    But if Jesus wasn't flesh in all things as His Brethren, but was God, and overcame sin, not by relying on His Father, but relying on His own powers as God, then these scriptures mean nothing. The temptation He endured was all a show, not real. His overcoming sin was just for show, God doesn't need to overcome sin, humans do.

    Thus the reason for my being on this forum in the first place, to test the spirits.

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    Judge by yourself: has Jesus made Himself 'equal' with the Father-God as Man or as God? Does He sound like every other creature, or, one Who speaks as God Himself in the flesh?

    Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    The Son in Mat 28:19 is one of the persons of the TRINITY. This is one of the scripture that you avoided in your discussion. Instead you went off topic, till the like you forgot the main issue yourself asked, and swerved into inducing the another issue of blaming religions to cover up your errors in order to escape from truth.

    This one verse you post doesn't make all the scriptures I have referenced Void. It has no bearing on the question. I think you rely too much on "other voices" for doctrine. I mean no disrespect. Consider the following:

    Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    The Christ, being in the form of God (Creating all things) considered Himself equal with God. I have no issue with this, God the Father, God the Son are equal. OK.

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, (Not the Form of God)and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    So the Christ didn't come to earth in the form as God, but He came in the Form of Man. And when He was old enough to comprehend this, He humbled Himself to His Father's Word, and obeyed them unto death.

    Jer. 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. 24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

    Ps. 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

    Shall not the man Jesus follow His own advice?

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    Is that because you are new in this forum? No. Because every person who joined here understands that (through reading the statement of faith on the website, if not only the rules and regulations to this forum) this is a site developed by Bible Discerning Christians who have no time for the traditions of men!

    What traditions are those, Christmas? Halloween? Or maybe it is the image of God created in the likeness of man by the religions of the land, known worldwide as Jesus. This is why I'm on this forum, to discuss religious doctrines according to scriptures to prove them whether they are from God or man. This is the "theology" portion of this web site. My understanding of this site is that it is a place where we can discuss various religious doctrines. I didn't mean for the topic of my choosing to offend you so much.


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    Why don't you answer the question asked repeatedly? Are you from 'the tradition' of JW? Do you or do you not believe in the TRINITY? Why did the Lord Jesus - when He was in the flesh - identify Himself not only as the "Son of Man", but also; as the "Son of God", as "One with the Father" and as "One of the three persons of the One God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

    Few points I want to share with you (I will be happy to hear your idea these, if you could also write specifically to each point):

    JW used to come to my home to promote their religious franchise. I am always glad to sit and fellowship with anyone. The last time they came, they brought their district elder or whatever his position was. Like many religious franchises of the land, he was not able to support his religion with "Every Word" of God, rather, they pick a verse here and there and build a doctrine around them. I am eternally grateful for the instructions the Christ left for me in His Gospel so that religious men (other voices) can not influence me as it did Eve and so many in the examples the Christ had written for my admonition..

    Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (our mind) 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


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    a) - When Jesus came in the flesh (became man), He didn't become like one us in terms of power and authority, but only like one of us in likeness and in testing the suffering of this world! As you believe the Word of God that specifically teach about Him being like us, you should also be attentive to those parts that teach about Him that He was able to do what the Father can, because He is God incarnate.

    Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    b) - Jesus is not from this creation! He was before the foundation of this world! He is the "Only" Begotten Son!

    Yes, the Christ was most certainly the Son of God that God the Father sent. "And God said, let there be light". And this Son of God came to man as Flesh and Blood "in all things" as His Brethren. He wasn't born a man before the foundation of the earth, unless you are preaching there was man and virgins before the Earth was created.

    I agree 100% that if God was to come to earth as a man, He would act just like Jesus acted, He would rely on the same Word's Jesus relied on. Truly in Him is all the fullness of the Godhead "Bodily".

    The scriptures don't say the Holy Ghost became Flesh and dwelt among us. It doesn't say God the Father became flesh and dwelt among us, it says the Christ, the Son of God became Flesh and dwelt among us. So the doctrine of Trinity has no bearing on my post.






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    Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
    Pro 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    Wonderful scriptures that I absolutely agree with. But they do not teach that the Man Jesus overcame sin by using super powers no other human has even had access to. The question of this thread.

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    c) - "flesh is weak" in the scripture below refers to the condition of all sinners because they are the children of Adam "who love to walk after the desires of the flesh" and by nature the children of wrath. (this has nothing to do with the Man Jesus who came without sin and who cannot sin!)

    Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
    Mar 14:38  Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

     Your doctrine teaches Jesus "couldn't sin". this of course means He really wasn't Flesh and Blood, that He really didn't come in the Flesh. That satan's attempt to deceive him was all just a fraud, a show.

    Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

    36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    By preaching that Jesus was immortal God with nothing to fear and nothing to lose because He, God, couldn't die, and couldn't sin, is a widespread religious teaching to be sure. But Jesus the Man doesn't agree with this teaching, and either does the Law and the Prophets. Did Jesus not "watch and pray" that He not fall into temptation?

    Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Jesus didn't walk according to the course of this World. He learned obedience by the things He suffered. He had desires as all men do. The very reason He became Flesh in the first place.

    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Of course if He were come an immortal God and dwelt among men, He could not die and could not sin. He had nothing to lose. I don't believe this about my Savior. This is why the scriptures tell us that His people know He came in the Flesh. And that it's the "other voice" who teaches He really didn't come in the Flesh "in all things as His Brethren".



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    I do understand however that Lord Jesus suffered and became weak on behalf of sinners. He was put in place of many - He bare heavy loads that no other individual can do - that means we are not to view Him as mere human being. As it is said, and I will put it this way: do not undermine Christ and His suffering.

    d) - to believe in the name of Christ is to believe in God. Lordship salvation is a teaching in the Word of God that salvation is by believing Jesus is the Lord God. I have noticed you said in your replies that you didn't attempt to tear Christ Jesus off the Godhead. Now, the main reason you received responses is because you deny the very simple truth that the Almighty God and the fulness of the Godhead did indeed indwell in the "Man Jesus". And He was given all power and authority over all that He never put Himself as a mere Man as you did portray Him and as you wanted us to believe that all He did when He was on earth as a Man was only following the prayers He made to the Father!

    I have only posted His Word's and that of His Fathers and set about to discuss and examine them. Most of which you has simply ignored. I have asked relevant questions, posed scriptures which suggest Jesus didn't come to earth and overcome sin as an immortal God, but by trusting on His Father in all things. This is what I believe the lesson is, to deny my mind and ideas, and submit to the righteousness of God. I am often astounded at how unpopular this line of thinking is among those who come in His Name.


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    Mat 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    (Jesus as a Man had power that belonged to God only!)

    Absolutely. Only by the power of God.

    John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

    Was Peter God as well? Or did Peter completely rely on the Risen Christ, as the man Jesus relied on God the Father?

    Shall I omit these many, many scriptures from my mind? And why would I? To follow a religious doctrine that appears contrary to the Word of God?

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    Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    (No other man but Jesus can do this and many other things that we can't, such as the walking on water, raising corpse of a man buried for four days.) (If you think this happened only because Jesus prayed to the Father and not because He has the power to alter Himself, then you must bring any evidence where other men who could do that by praying to the Father. No one can do that, not even any one of the three men that were with Him in the mountain and saw Him transfigure. Only Jesus can because He is God incarnate)

    Peter walked on Water. The Bible is full of example of men receiving power from God. I can't believe you would make such a statement.


    Matt. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    1 Kings 17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. 11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand. 12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die. 13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son. 14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth. 15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.

    17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? 19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. 24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

    There is one man in the vision.

    Ex. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

    There is the another of the 3.

    Duet 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    And there is the prophesy of the Word of God which becomes Flesh, the other of the 3.

    So was Moses God incarnate? Was Elijah God incarnate? If not, then where did their power come from? And the Man Jesus, where did HE SAY HIS power come from?

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    So your religious doctrine what only God incarnate can raise a man from the dead, feed His people many days with little food, even divide a sea so His People could walk on dry ground, has been shown to be untrue. Not because the Pope said so, or some other religious voice, but because we have examined the scriptures and found your statement false according to the Word's of the very Christ you preach. Will you consider? Not according to Luke 16:31.


    2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

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    To believe in Christ is to believe in the TRINITY; to believe that He is both Man and God - the only perfect Man who pleased God the father; and the Only perfect God that does all things as He intends, according to His will and purpose. There is no reason for you to deny the role of deity of Christ Jesus in salvation. OR, you will have to sit down and think about why you have become like one of the men who, because of their tradition, rejected Jesus as God incarnate and usually murmured whenever He reveals His Head as God to them.

    I know what the Catholic church teaches. Believing in Every Word of God does not deny the role of Deity in Christ. The scriptures teach:

    1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.




    Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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    Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Mat 9:3  And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

    Joh 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    "Many good works have I showed you of My Father".

    Exactly what the rest of the Bible says about my Savior, exactly what I believe, exactly what the scriptures teach. And exactly what this thread is all about.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.







    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 02, 2019, 06:15:12 PM
    The Bible says the Christ, The Word of God, the creator of all things, became a Man and dwelt among us. I believe this. If that offends you, then your beef is with the Word of God.


    I don't know about him, but I am offended by your manipulation of scripture to suit your own purposes and ignoring scriptures that don't fit into the box you have constructed. Anyone can post scripture, ignore someone else's scriptures, and then proclaim to be following the word. You obviously are not because you can't reconcile our scriptures with the ones you list. Which by the way, no one denies. But you deny Jesus was not only a man but actually God in the flesh, which scripture clearly teaches. Then you attempt to claim the Trinity is not in scripture but was put there by a group of Catholics, also not defensible. You should worry less about labels and more about the truth. Studyman is an inappropriate label for you.

    Thank you for your spirit filled reply and addition to this discussion. I do believe God the Son became a man and dwelt among us. I don't believe He overcame sin and temptation by accessing powers no other human had access to. I believe this was the whole purpose of becoming a man, and not just coming as God and snapping His Fingers and making everyone righteous. I was hoping for an in-depth discussion and examination of His Word's on this subject. I expect there are some who are not interested in such a discussion.

    That's OK. 




    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Diane Moody on January 02, 2019, 07:03:06 PM
    Thank you for your spirit filled reply and addition to this discussion. I do believe God the Son became a man and dwelt among us. I don't believe He overcame sin and temptation by accessing powers no other human had access to. I believe this was the whole purpose of becoming a man, and not just coming as God and snapping His Fingers and making everyone righteous. I was hoping for an in-depth discussion and examination of His Word's on this subject. I expect there are some who are not interested in such a discussion.

    That's OK.

    You weren't expecting a discussion, you were expecting to come here and steam roll though Christians who were ignorant of the scriptures, but instead you found those who know manipulation of scripture when they see it. I guess you don't know what a straw man is, but I suggest you look it up, because that's all you have been presenting. Scriptures which no one denies in order to contradict scriptures that clearly teach Christ was God. That works with the naive, but not with seasoned Christians like those here.

    If mere man could overcome sin, there would be no need for a Savior God who created the world, no need for Mary to be of child by the Holy Ghost, no reason for Christ to be called "God with us." But in your narrow minded world, the power as Son of God didn't have any bearing on his sin-bearing capability. This is what you want naive people to believe, but that is not us. Try the free will forum down the street.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 02, 2019, 07:55:03 PM
    Hello Studyman

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    Please don't repeat the notion that you fled from religious doctrines to be a 'Bible Only' student. You have said that a dozen times. If you believe what the Word of God said only: then why deny that Jesus and the Father are one?

    I don't. I want to know what this means according to the Scriptures. I believe the answer lies with the Word of God. I address this on the last post in response to your first reply. You seem to imply that the Word's of My Savior "I and My Father are One" means that Jesus came to earth as God in all ways as God the Father, is not supported by Every Word of God. The Scriptures say He came in the Flesh "in all things as His Brethren". And He was killed, and He was tempted, both things God could not suffer, that a man, in all things as His brethren, could.

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    Why did you, as you continuously did in your earlier posts, address Jesus as "the Word of God" and never wanted to call Him "Lord" or "God"?

    My Savior is the Word of God which became Flesh. I don't want to confuse my Lord with the image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model that "many" in Christ's Name place His Name on. Also, He inspired it to be written so that I would know that He, the Risen Christ, was the Word of God made Flesh. I'm not sure why you are offended by the term.


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    Lord is a title of God and Jesus required it from believers. Because He is one and equal with God.

    He was "equal" with God when He was in the "form of God", as it is written. But He didn't come and dwell among men in the form of God, it is written He came and dwelt among men in the Form of a Man. And being found in this fashion, humbled Himself to God the Father. I'm not sure why you don't believe this.

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    Stephen prayed to Jesus (calls Him Lord, not "word of God"), because Jesus and God are One!

    Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Jesus the Man had died, and was raised from the dead, had already ascended to the Right hand of God His Father.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Stephen Prayed To His Lord Much in the same way Jesus prayed to God the Father.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Matt. 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Why is it so hard for some to believe Jesus was a man, in all things as His Brethren?

    Quote
    Read below how Thomas addressed Jesus. He said my Lord and my God. Because the Man Jesus and the God are One.

    Joh 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
    Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

    Yes, Jesus came in the Flesh, rejected of men, died and was raised from the dead with the Power of God the Father.

    Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    1 Cor. 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    Shall I just reject all these scriptures because you or your religion don't really believe in them?

    Quote
    The first Adam was not entitled of anything the Lord only has. Do not equate Lord Jesus with the first Man - Adam. If you believe Jesus' word, then believe the truth that He was equal with God, not with Adam. That is what God's word command us, to call Him Lord and God! Because He is the "Only" begotten "Son of God".
    But I know you are a denier and you cannot call Him Lord and God knowing that He and the Father are One. (Like I said above you are not different from those who pick their tradition over the word of God. They denied Him as a Son of God, you are doing the same by equating Lord Jesus with Adam instead of believing the Word of God that clearly teaches that He and the Father are one!)

    Jesus told me, and also gave me many examples, of how religious men would treat me if I trusted in Him and His Word's over the religious traditions of the Land. It's OK, it's only natural for you to feel this way.

    Quote
    I don't know how you meant by your I only follow God's word thing but it seems you like self-interpretation; and running away from truth through avoidance of the important places that should prove you wrong. That way you simply are approving yourself in your own eyes. You lack wisdom but in the eyes of God!

    (unlike the first Adam) When Lord Jesus was on earth He - the Son of Man - was on earth because He came from Heaven. When the Son of Man was on earth, at the same time He was also in Heaven. That's because He is both God and Man. Do you believe what the Word of God says, do you believe Joh 3:13?

    Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    Yes, I believe Jesus is truly the Word of God which became Flesh in all thigs like unto His Brethren. It isn't me who equates or compares the first Adam with the second, I just believe what is written.

    Quote
    (I don't know why you misguided yourself by using the phrase 'Son of God' when you took that only to equate Lord Jesus with the first Adam! And you never seemed to mind the Word of God that teach they are indeed quite different - look below that Jesus uses the phrase "Son of God" to mean that He is one with the Father. Of course, by "Son of God" Jesus is referring to the person of the TRINITY, namely "the Son" in Mat 28:19. But like the Jews, Sadducees and Pharisees; the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Muslims, etc ... you cannot accept that. You see Lord Jesus as a mere man and as one of the prophets only, as one and equal with Adam. And you claim you are not like them 'in the land' who cling to doctrines of men is amazing to me!)

    We have a disagreement. That's OK, this is why we have discussions like this.

     
    Quote
    Quote
    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    I truly believe the God of Abraham came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren, just as the Law and Prophets prophesied.

    Quote
    Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.
    Joh 10:31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    Joh 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

    Yes, Jesus the Man didn't come to further His human mind, but the Word's of His Father. This is what this thread is all about. "Not My Will, but Thy Will".

    Quote
    Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    Joh 10:35  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    Joh 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Joh 10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    Joh 10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    He is truly God who came to earth as a man, sent by God the Father to save the sinner, not the righteous.

    Quote
    "Son of God" is title of the second person of the TRINITY. But you used it as a replacement for the Son of Man and also as a title for Adam? This title is specifically used to address God, in the same manner God the Father, or God the Son, the Holy Spirit is used to refer to God.

    Son of God is a title only Jesus takes because He is God. Adam is not. But there is one part in the new testament which speaks of Adam as the Son of God - to indicate that He was created by God in His image. Nothing more nothing less - it is just to put the roots that led to the flesh that was used by God to build the body of Jesus (Luk 3:23 - 38). And since there was no Adam before the first Adam was created, the word of God puts him as a Son of God.
    However as we can learn from the scriptures above, the "Son of God" means God and it is a title like the title "Lord" that must be used when addressing God and only God.

    Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    Rom. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Job. 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    As I said before, I am here to examine God's Word's as the Christ instructed, ALL of them. You do have a religion, and I'm sure you believe all that you believe. But as you can see, the scriptures contradicts much of your preaching. Maybe God has sent a nobody like me to point these contradictions out to you, not with my words, but with His.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    It is this Lord, and Christ that I worship.





    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Philly Dawg on January 02, 2019, 10:44:30 PM
    I believe this was the whole purpose of becoming a man, and not just coming as God and snapping His Fingers and making everyone righteous.

     I guess you don't know what a straw man is, but I suggest you look it up, because that's all you have been presenting. Scriptures which no one denies in order to contradict scriptures that clearly teach Christ was God. That works with the naive, but not with seasoned Christians like those here.

    If mere man could overcome sin, there would be no need for a Savior God who created the world, no need for Mary to be of child by the Holy Ghost, no reason for Christ to be called "God with us." But in your narrow-minded world, the power as Son of God didn't have any bearing on his sin-bearing capability. This is what you want naive people to believe, but that is not us. Try the free will forum down the street.

    "Straw Man" is right. It's so childish a lie that it is "Trumpish." Who said that Christ just came as God and snapped His Fingers and made everyone righteous? I mean except Studyman? This guy presents a new Straw Man on every post and no one challenges him on it. Unless my eyes deceive me, it's already been stated that the Savior had to come as fully man and fully God in order to pay for sin. Yet he keeps repeating this "Trumpsih" falsehood hoping that everyone is cultish enough to blindly believe that is what we believe is true.

    "Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

    If Christ was a man, why would we worship him as God? God being in his natural form became flesh in order to pay for sins, and we don't need you to explain to us what that means, we can read the word of God ourselves. Not the Studyman watered down version of it.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Kevin Wright on January 03, 2019, 12:12:50 AM
     )ditto(
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 03, 2019, 06:18:23 AM
    The question I posted was did Jesus overcome sin and satan as a Flesh and Blood man, in all things like unto His Brethren?
    The cipher you have posted cannot be decoded without hard work~let me see if I can.

    As a man, he worshipped God.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    And was He sitting on the Right Hand of God when He was walking the earth dwelling among men?
    No, HE WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN, in his divine nature! At that moment no one was on his right hand!
    Quote from: Jesus Christ
    John 3:13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
    Again he was BOTH man and God in his complex nature, which means as God he was BOTH on earth in the person of Jesus Christ, AS GOD, in heaven ruling over all! You have failed to do what Nehemiah and Ezra taught us to do:
    Quote from: Nehemiah
    Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
    As of yet, you have not learned to do this, thereby, you do err not knowing the scriptures.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    And where is this same Jesus now?
    He's now sitting on the right hand of God highly exalted as the Man Christ Jesus~the right hand of God is just a scriptural phrase meaning the highest exalted place anyone can be exalted. Remember God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be, to whom Jesus Christ himself shall yield up the kingdom to God, that God may be all in all. In the new heavens and earth, we shall reign world without end with God in the person of Jesus Christ who IS the true God and eternal life. This is the mystery of godliness and it is a great mystery revealed unto God's elect.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
      Did His Father not glorify Him and give Him a name above all other names?
    God did indeed~that at the name of Jesus shall every knee bow, of things in earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Jesus Christ is:
    Quote from: Paul
    Romans 9:5~"Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    There's Paul's confession of who Jesus Christ is....God blessed for ever. AMEN!
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    Shall I not call on His Name as He called on His Father's name?
    Actually, we have access to God THROUGH Christ~as we said above: The man Christ Jesus, embodying in his person all that his names and titles mean or signify, as God, Man and Mediator, was manifest in the flesh, came in the flesh, was made flesh, and dwelt among us; and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He “was put to death in the flesh;” not simply his flesh put to death, but his flesh as it stood identified with his Sonship; “was put to death in the flesh;” so that it was the Son of God, as well as the son of the virgin Mary, that bare our sins in his own body on the cross, and who, in the accomplishment of what the Father gave him to do, “gave himself a ransom.  It was Christ alone that perfectly pleased God and we are accepted on HIS BEHALF, not because of anything that we have done, or can do. All prayers in the NT are directed to God through Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ, no man would have a right to approach God and petition him~apart from Christ we have no righteousness of our own.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    Or did He overcome sin by accessing Godly powers, when the going got tough, that no other human has ever had access to?
    As a man, he fully trusted in God, and it is THAT FAITH that he had that is the very means that that we are freely justified from our sins, since God's elect were IN CHRIST as part of his holy body that yielded his members as instruments  of righteousness unto God~but then again, Jesus was the Lord from heaven sent to live as a representative of the elect children of God to fulfilled God's promises of grace and to keep his faithfulness to the chosen seed of Christ.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    I see how some are trying to change the question to "Was Jesus God".
    Well, sir, Jesus was MORE than just a man, he was the virgin-born Son of God begotten by the power of the Highest, for the sole purpose of redeeming God's elect.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    There is no doubt that Jesus is the Word of God, the Creator God of the Bible, the God of Abraham which became Flesh. I have never suggested anything differently. My question was, did Jesus overcome as God, or as man? Did His Father Glorify Him because as a man He was obedient unto death, or because He was God?
    Without saying much about your confession, since your confession is not exactly correct, yet I will not make a person an offender over words~The Word, in the beginning, was GOD...period! The Word was made Flesh, which means that God was manifest in the flesh in the person of his only begotten Son, when the Word joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God.  ONLY the Son of God could have condemned sin in the flesh by his faith and obedience, proven by the very fact that Adam in his perfect state of creation COULD NOT. This is where you err. I gave you some questions above to answer which you made no attempt to do so.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    He was "equal" with God when He was in the "form of God", as it is written. But He didn't come and dwell among men in the form of God, it is written He came and dwelt among men in the Form of a Man.
    When was he in  the "form of God" according to your understanding? Certainly NOT before the Word was made flesh! He was the very express image of God while he lived in this world in the flesh! Again I ask you: Do you believe that Jesus was a complex person, fully man, and fully God while living in this world? Even NOW there is a MAN Christ Jesus in the heaven in an exalted, glorified body, that is the true God, name JESUS. This same Jesus shall one day return IN THAT BODY to gather together his chosen bride unto himself and there will we be with him forever, world without end. Acts 1; 1st Thess 4, etc.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    Why is it so hard for some to believe Jesus was a man, in all things as His Brethren?
    No problem, I believe it~yet, I also know that one day I shall see this SAME JESUS as my God and my Lord, and I shall handle of the Word of Life and embrace him for evermore, as my God and Saviour. Titus 2:13 .
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    Jesus told me, and also gave me many examples, of how religious men would treat me if I trusted in Him and His Word's over the religious traditions of the Land. It's OK, it's only natural for you to feel this way.
    Make sure it's because of truth, not error.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    He is truly God who came to earth as a man, sent by God the Father to save the sinner, not the righteous.
    When he came, he lived in a body where he was BOTH God and man, even though they never conflict with each other, yet Jesus posses all that God was from conception to death. Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, and we must accept the complex natures of Jesus of Nazareth.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 05:43:03 PM
    It is this Lord, and Christ that I worship.
    Only if you contribute all that God is to the person of Jesus Christ while he lived in this world.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Trevor on January 03, 2019, 01:49:23 PM
    I don't. I want to know what this means according to the Scriptures. I believe the answer lies with the Word of God. I address this on the last post in response to your first reply. You seem to imply that the Word's of My Savior "I and My Father are One" means that Jesus came to earth as God in all ways as God the Father, is not supported by Every Word of God.

    I don't have as much patience with this type as some do, but I'll add my two cents in here. In fact, it is supported by every word of God. Jesus and God are one, and that's exactly what the word of God says. It appears that you don't appreciate the word of God saying that, but it is what it says. You've ignored the word of God many times, but the word is not hidden in its language.

    Philippians 2:6
    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

    Why do you ignore every word of God in order to hold to your own personal interpretations?


    Quote
    The Scriptures say He came in the Flesh "in all things as His Brethren". And He was killed, and He was tempted, both things God could not suffer, that a man, in all things as His brethren, could.

    Yes, and the question is who came in the flesh as a man? The answer is God came in the flesh as a man. Why you continually attempt to separate God from this man is unfathomable, but there is no doubt that it was God come as a man in order to pay for the sins of man. Which you would know if you accept Philippians 2 that I already gave You. He's Immanuel, God with us for a reason.


    Quote
    My Savior is the Word of God which became Flesh. I don't want to confuse my Lord with the image of some long haired men's hair shampoo model that "many" in Christ's Name place His Name on. Also, He inspired it to be written so that I would know that He, the Risen Christ, was the Word of God made Flesh. I'm not sure why you are offended by the term.

    No one is offended by the term because we love God's word, but I (personally) am offended by your dishonest manipulation of the term to somehow mean "Not God," but just a man. Your clever words and smooth tongue does not fool the elect. You are clearly attempting to manipulate the words of God in order to paint a picture for Christians that is not true.

    As for religion, I don't care about organized religions, I am interested in every word of God. Which it appears you are not. Because Christ the Man died laden with mankind's sin, and unless he was a liar, He as God raised himself from the dead 3 days later without sin and in the flesh. You want us to believe He didn't do that because he wasn't God? This was posted before but you ignored what it said.

    John 2:19
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    John 2:20
    Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    John 2:21
    But he spake of the temple of his body.

    Do you want us to believe that Christ lies and He wasn't God who raised up his body in 3 days, or do you want to do some further manipulations of the word to make it fit your anti-trinitarian views?


    Quote
    was raised from the dead, had already ascended to the Right hand of God His Father.

    The applicatory question is, who raised him from the dead? Was it the God Christ as He said he would do, or did Christ lie when he told the people that he would raise his body up? You just never answer the questions that illustrate you are ignoring scripture.


    Quote
    Stephen Prayed To His Lord Much in the same way Jesus prayed to God the Father.

    Then why do we pray to a man? We don't, we pray to the Son of God, God with us, Immanuel.

    Mat 22:43
    He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
    Mat 22:44
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    Mat 22:45
    If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Quote
    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Because he, being in the form of God, took on the form of man, so that he could be like his brethren in order to pay for their sins. Why do you find the word of God so difficult to comprehend? It's plainly written, every word.

    1Jo 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    The Son of God, not the son of man. Because we don't worship a man, we worship God who became man in order to be our savior. You know, rather than just snap his fingers.


    Quote
    Why is it so hard for some to believe Jesus was a man, in all things as His Brethren?

    I believe that. As someone said previously, another Straw Man? The question is, why is it so hard for you to believe that Jesus was more than just a man, but our Lord and savior.

    Isa 45:21
    "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."

    When Christ declared himself Savior, he declared himself God.


    Just as Thomas understood, we also accept the scriptures and know that Christ was our Lord and our God. Look it up. Christ was both Lord and God.

    Joh 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
    Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:[/quote]


    Quote
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Which again means Christ was God because He said He would raise his body up after 3 days dead. Which also means you are continuing to ignore the scriptures.

    Quote
    Shall I just reject all these scriptures because you or your religion don't really believe in them?

    More Straw Men. We believe in all Scripture, I can only assume you are saying this because you want to distract from the truth of your ignoring so many scriptures in order to hold to your unsound theology.


    Quote
    As I said before, I am here to examine God's Word's as the Christ instructed, ALL of them.

    There is talk, and then there is action. It is obvious you are not here to examine God's word, but to teach false doctrines that cannot save. Because if Jesus was just a man, then man has no Savior. If Jesus was God come down to earth in the form of man as scripture teaches, then we can rest assured that we have been redeemed. Because besides the perfect efficacy in the work of God in removing sin from man, no man can be saved. To think a mere man could do that is ridiculous. He would be consumed.

    Quote
    You do have a religion, and I'm sure you believe all that you believe.

    And you do have a religion, what you want to call it is your business, but it's definitely a religion because you are not alone in holding to these false doctrines. I'm sure you believe all that you believe, but most false teachers do. That doesn't prove anything. What your teaching does prove is that you are an offense to the truth. Not because you don't believe as we do, but because you deny Christ, deny His deity, and deny his spirit. You deny the Trinity, which is to deny God.

    1Jo 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jo 5:8
    And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    1Jo 5:9
    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

    I'm sure you feel antagonized, offended and insulted so don't bother. Your mission, tactics, and motivation are as transparent as a Leptocephalus. To claim you came here because of an interest in an honest discussion is bogus. You aren't the first and I doubt you'll be the last. But as for convincing anyone here, that's highly unlikely because most "DO" Love every word of God. Not just give it lip service as you apparently do.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Reggie Matthews on January 03, 2019, 07:05:22 PM
    Call them Jehovah Witnesses, or if they don't like group religion call them Divine separatists, call the doctrine Humanistic Soteriology, or call it nontrinitarianism. But it is all still is the very same heresy any way you slice it. A house built upon sand. At least it was when the church was faithful.   

    Just saying.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Kevin Wright on January 04, 2019, 02:13:06 AM
    From your long list of scripture references, we can see that you are discussing issues which does not lead you to answering even the question of your own. All your quoted scriptures are describing how Christ as a Man was "obedient" to God the Father and that He was indeed the "lamb" of God - which none of the people here denied.

     &TY  )S_Confused(
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Melanie on January 04, 2019, 04:00:07 AM
    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (As did the Man Jesus)

    Shall I not trust these Words?

    Yes, as we do.

    >> Your Answer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 04, 2019, 05:41:30 AM
    John 2:19
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    John 2:20
    Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    John 2:21
    But he spake of the temple of his body.
    As Jehovah God, the everlasting Father of all things~he raised Himself up! He was saying to the blinded Jews that he was God, and they did not pick up on what he was saying to them, much like religious people of today.

    As the Son of Man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, he was raised from the dead by the power of God, the same power that quickened us from being dead in sins to spiritual life.
    Quote from: The apostle Paul
    Ephesians 1:19-23~"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."
    It's a matter of laboring of rightly dividing the word of God so that we preserved the deity of Jesus Christ as the True God and the only source of eternal life~ and that life is through HIS FAITH and OBEDIENCE ALONE, as the man called JESUS, who was sent by God to save his people from their sins, and HE DID! Matthew 1:21; John 19:30; Ephesians 2:5-8; etc.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 10:47:53 AM
    Quote
    author=Red link=topic=3414.msg40921#msg40921 date=1546425419]
    author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40909#msg40909 date=1546282861]There is a lesson regarding the mind of man here to be sure, but the lesson isn't that it was impossible for Adam to "choose the good and reject the Evil".

    Let us say this: God in his infinite wisdom created Adam very good, without a sin nature, and left him to be obedience to the God who created him, to prove to us that God alone in his Godhead as an eternal infinite Spirit ALONE cannot be tempted to sin, but is a Spirit that loves righteousness, and hates iniquity.

    Where is it written God created Adam without a "sin nature"? What does that even mean? This phrase isn't even mentioned in the Bible. Of course God hates iniquity. But a human must "learn" to hate iniquity. He must "Learn" to choose the good and reject the evil.

    Gen. 4:6 And the LORD (The Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Is this not a fundamental truth? In your religion, did the Christ teach this truth also to Cain parents? Or did He hide this from them, and then punish them and the whole world because they didn't know any better?



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    =Studyman Reply #38 on: December 31, 2018, 02:01:01 PM]There is a lesson regarding the mind of man here to be sure, but the lesson isn't that it was impossible for Adam to "choose the good and reject the Evil".

    Well it was impossible, but the fault is with is the man, NOT GOD~ God made man after his own image as I said above. The difference in the first covenant works with Adam as the head of his posterity and the second covenant of grace, with Christ the head of his chosen seed, is that God laid help upon one GREATER than the first Adam, his own Son, who SECURED his seed a right to eternal life by his faith and obedience, being the Son of the Living God~who shared his own NATURE being ONE with his Father. The blood that Jesus shed was the blood of God that purchased eternal redemption for the elect of God.

    This seems to be a foundational doctrine of your religion. That it is impossible to "obey God". I reject your teaching that God left Adam and Eve to satan, the greatest deceiver ever to confront mankind, with no protection, no escape from the temptations, then punished them when they sinned, but gave His Son special powers to overcome satan no other human has ever had, made Him incorruptible, then gave Him great Glory when He wasn't corrupted. This whole doctrine is flawed, and paints a horrible light on the Christ and can not be supported with scriptures.

    The Blood Jesus shed was human blood, the pain Jesus felt was human pain, the fear Jesus feared was human fear. And He overcame all these things, not because He was born with a silver spoon, but because He followed His Own instructions He gave all mankind perfectly. He humbled Himself to the Word of God, as a man.

    Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    When was He in the "Form of God"? While He walked the earth as Jesus? Or before He walked the earth as Jesus?

    John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (In the Form of God, YES?) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    When Jesus was the Word of God creating all things, He thought it not robbery to be equal to God. But He didn't come to earth as God, rather, as a man "in all things as His Brethren" He was tempted "in all ways as His Brethren". We either believe He came in the Flesh or we don't.

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, (Not the Form of God) and was made in the likeness of men: (Not the Likeness of God)

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, (Not God)

    When was Jesus "Found in Fashion as a man"?  These Word's have meaning also Red. When did Jesus realize who He was, and what He was? At age 1? 3? 10?. And when He had grown enough to realize who He was, and what He was, what did He do? I'm not guiding my own footsteps here Red, I'm not following some famous preacher here. I'm trusting His Words as truth.

    "he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

    And who did He humble Himself to? Himself? Or His Father? Who gave Him the power over fear, over temptation, and ultimately over death? If I listen to many, who come in Christ's Name, I would believe He gave Himself this power. But if I listen to Him and His Word's, I would believe He prayed to His father, and His Father gave Him the power. And I reject the notion that Adam couldn't have chosen to seek council as his son Abel did, and that had he, God would have protected him just as God protected Jesus and ALL who called upon Him.

    So Adam and Eve trusted their own mind, their own resolve, but Jesus completely humbled Himself to His Father in true Love, trust and Faith, even in the prospect of certain death. This is why Adam goes down in history as cursed, while Jesus gets a Name greater than all other names. As it is written;

    9 Wherefore (Therefore, because of this, because He humbled Himself to God in obedience) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    The First human to humble Himself to God from the age of accountability to His death. The "firstfruit" of many who will strive to follow Him, to "walk even as He walked". We can now, having Faith in Him as He had Faith in His Father, become part of His Church, and join those other witnesses like Abel, and Noah, and Abraham and Caleb and all the Faithful examples the Christ had written for our admonition. As my Lord and Savior said:

    Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ, the Word of God which becomes Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


    Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. I thought about posted specific replies to your post, but it would make no difference it seems. We have a fundamental disagreement about scriptures. Not uncommon among men if the Bible is your guide.

    I believe Jesus the man and God the Father were of one mind. Not because God created Him that way, but because, as the scriptures say, He denied His Human nature, and humbled Himself in obedience to His Father.

    I know this is taught against in most religions of this earth, but this also is prophesied.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, (including His Own) that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (When He was in the Form of God)

    Thanks again for the thoughtful discussion, and please feel free to address the scriptures I have posted, and my understanding of them.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 01:07:47 PM
    author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40923#msg40923 date=1546445304]As I have already said, I am not a JW, or a Catholic or any of her daughters, nor do I belong to any religious franchise. I am simply on this forum, not to insult, ridicule or label people, but to examine All Scriptures in the pursuit of Biblical Truth. If you have something constructive to add, like God's Word's, please post them for discussion.

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    The Bible says the Christ, The Word of God, the creator of all things, became a Man and dwelt among us. I believe this. If that offends you, then your beef is with the Word of God.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


    2 John 2:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.[/size]


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    Sir, the scriptures quoted are wonderful scriptures, they have a meaning much deeper than you are seeing I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. The spirit of antichrist that Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John said that would come, has come and still is coming with greater power than in any point of the church's history since the days of Christ. One of the many doctrines that they shall bring are ones that deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and this is done in more ways than one.

    There are many who come in Christ's name, who don't believe the Word of God, the Christ, came to earth as a man in all things like unto His Brethren. They don't believe His flesh was human Flesh, that His Blood was Human Blood, that His Pain was Human pain, that His Fear was Human fear. They believe Jesus was sort of a Hybrid God Man that couldn't be tempted. They have created an image of God in the likeness of a handsome man which they have placed the Name of Jesus on, and have, for centuries, disseminated this image all over the world. To the point that in most of the world if I ask any human over the age of 12 who this image is, they would all identify it as Jesus. Of course, Jesus, as the God of Abraham, forbad such a thing, and would never ever condone the creation of an image of God. And also, the image they promote isn't Jesus at all, but was created in the mind of man, who the Christ said was wicked above all things.

    I think this behavior is common among religious men as Paul said.

    Rom. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    This was not what Jesus taught.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Since we have been warned of a great religion with "many" who teach in Christ's Name, but practice lawlessness (creating images of God in the likeness of men, etc) It seems prudent to "test" the spirits of the many various doctrines which are taught by religious man. Thus the reason for my post.


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    I have a few questions for you and they are:

    Was Jesus Christ fully man and fully God in one body?


    The scriptures say He was found in the fashion of a "man" and Humbled Himself to His Father.

    Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    So these and many other scriptures teach He came as a man, not as God. I believe them.


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    Did in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that in one true biblical sense Jesus Christ is uncreated, underived, self-existent, independent and eternal?

    Jesus was born of a woman, He depended on His Parents to care for Him until He had grown old enough to care for Himself. He wasn't "Self-existent" because the scriptures declare over and over that He trusted God the Father, He Glorified God the Father, He humbled Himself to God the Father, He did the Will of God the Father, He taught the Doctrines of God the Father, He gave His people God the Father's Words. Do I believe that if God came to earth as a man He would say what Jesus said, live how Jesus lived, walk as Jesus walked? Absolutely. Truly if God were a man, He would be Jesus. So yes, I believe in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead "Bodily", certainly given that God is a Spirit.


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    Do you believe when Jesus said: =John]John 10:30-33~"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

    I absolutely believe in all His Words.

    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    I don't believe the words of those religious men whom Jesus said were serving satan, over the rest of the Bible. Jesus didn't "make Himself God", He just got through saying God gave Him His People, that God is greater than all. You must listen to what He told them.

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    Are we not all striving to become the "Sons of God"? Do these scriptures make void or alter any other of the Christ's Words? And if so, how????

    It seems You take this one scripture "I and my Father are one" and use it to erase all that is written about the "man of sorrows". Am I not to become one with Jesus? Does this make me a God Man? My friend, what if the scriptures are right, and Jesus did come to earth as a man in all things as His Brethren? Surely you must consider the possibility. And what if all the religious franchises of the land don't believe what the Christ teaches? Well welcome to the world Jesus was born into.


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    Jesus Christ was a complex person FULLY man~FULLY God in one body. Do you truly believe that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Almighty?

    Jesus the Man was born. He had a beginning. Jesus the Man died, He had an end. He is no longer Flesh and Blood, He can no longer fear, He can no longer feel pain, He can no longer bleed, or be tortured, or die.

    John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

    He wasn't "fully God" according to the scriptures, He was found in the fashion of "fully Man" and humbled Himself completely to His Father.


    Quote
    Do you believe John when he said that he had seen with his eyes and his hands handled the Word of life, which was with the Father as far as being ONE with him in his Divine nature? =John]1st John 1:1-3~That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

    Absolutely, He is making my point. Jesus was the walking, talking Word of God. His Word's are Life and I believe them. All of His Words.

    John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

    45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Duet 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Where did Moses get His Power? From the same place Jesus the Man got His Power, YES?

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    The Godhead IS ONE according to their Divine nature, yet manifest to us AS THREE "only" according to each respective work in the salvation of God's elect and in the order of carrying out that work. So, bottom line~ Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD and eternal life per 1st John 5:20~The ONLY God we will ever see is JESUS CHRIST per Matthew 5:8~God is a Spirit that inhabiteth eternity, always has, always will. When Jesus Christ walked this earth God was seen for the FIRST TIME by men and angels.


    20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    Whose Son is Jesus Christ? He is the true God as this says, and as Jesus Himself said.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    I absolutely believe these Word's and all His Word's. It seems you aren't reading his Word's here. I don't know how anything I have said is contrary to the scriptures you put forward.


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    =Paul]1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

     God is so great in glory and light that not even angels have or, can see him.


    Where does it say God's angels have not seen God? Where does this teaching come from? 

    Matt. 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

    Who sent the Angels? Whose Angels were they?

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    =Paul]1st Timothy 6:18~"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
    Jesus Christ IS the very express image of God the Father.=Paul]Colossians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
    Studyman, is this the Jesus you believe in or is it another Jesus?[/quote]

    This is my Jesus. He is God the Son who came to earth as a man, in all things as His Brethren, being found in the fashion of man He Humbled Himself to His Father in obedience, even unto death. And God, because Jesus humbled Himself to Him, Glorified Him, Raised Him from the dead, and gave Him a name above all other Names. There is no other Human who has ever entered heaven, He is truly the First and the Firstfruit of Many who would humble themselves to Him and His Word's even as He humbled Himself to His Father and His Fathers Words. 

    John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    We just have a fundamental disagreement on the Scriptures. Hopefully I have answered your questions so that you might see where I get my understanding from.

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply.







    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Reformer on January 04, 2019, 01:12:08 PM
    This seems to be a foundational doctrine of your religion. That it is impossible to "obey God". I reject your teaching that God left Adam and Eve to satan, the greatest deceiver ever to confront mankind, with no protection, no escape from the temptations,

    Another Straw Man. You are unbelievable. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to choose good and evil, and told them the day they chose evil, they would die, and they chose to disobey. They chose evil. Not God, they did that. Stop with the Staw Men, it's unbecoming a Christian.


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    then punished them when they sinned,

    Did he not warn them first that they would be punished? What then are you talking about? Does God not have the right to punish man for his transgressions? He keeps his word.


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    but gave His Son special powers to overcome satan no other human has ever had,

    Obviously, since no other human ever had the power to overcome Satan. You're talking in riddles that make no sense. What man overcame Satan apart from Christ? No man. So again, what are you talking about? Makes no sense.


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    made Him incorruptible

    He was incorruptible because He was man created from he flesh of Mary and the Spirit from God. Have you never heard of Mary being of child by the Holy Ghost and not her betroved Joseph? Or are you deliberately being slow on the uptake?


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    then gave Him great Glory when He wasn't corrupted.

    Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    He's not a new being, Christ had glory with God before he became man, and he is still that same person. The three persons of the Gopdhead cannot be separated. If that verse sounds like Christ was just a man like everyone else to you, while he says he had been with God since the world began, then there is no use of anyone attempting to discuss words with you because you show yourself incapable of rational discussion.


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    This whole doctrine is flawed, and paints a horrible light on the Christ and can not be supported with scriptures.

    Not only can it be supported, it has been supported by scripture by most everyone here, and you just ignore dance around all the scriptures presented.


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    Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    When was He in the "Form of God"? While He walked the earth as Jesus? Or before He walked the earth as Jesus?

    When was he in the form of God you ask? Read what is written, not your opinion of what is written. When He created the world as God is when. It was before he humbled himself to join with Mary and become flesh in order to redeem man. Or now are you theorizing that Christ was not in the form of God and lowered himself to took on flesh that he might redeem us. Redeem us while we were yet dead in trespass and sin.


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    When Jesus was the Word of God creating all things, He thought it not robbery to be equal to God. But He didn't come to earth as God, rather, as a man "in all things as His Brethren"

    A mere man by any reasonable definition doesn't come to earth from heaven as a man after being in the form of God. A mere man is born of a man and a woman on earth. He doesn't talk about his time in heaven when he created the world. Let's stop playing games. What you are arguing is absurd and bizarre on so many levels. Logically it is downright comical. You're saying Christ was just a man like the rest of us, and God was his physical father, and he came from heaven, and he used to be in the form of God. How in any way is that a mere man?


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    He was tempted "in all ways as His Brethren". We either believe He came in the Flesh or we don't.

    We believe he came in the flesh, we believe he was tempted like his brethren because that's why he took on the flesh. But we don't believe your far-fetched theory that he was just a man when he had no human father because his physical nativity was directly of God as well as Mary. Yet you think it is rational to believe he was still just a mere man. If he was just a man, where did the other half of his genes and chromosomes come from? He had to have a father as part of his being, did he not. The word of God says it was by the Spirit of God. You ignore this question like so many others.


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    I'm not guiding my own footsteps here Red, I'm not following some famous preacher here.

    I trust Red is not deceived by you. You say you are not guiding your own footsteps, but you are. Moreover, you are guided by a spirit, but it's not the Spirit of Christ. You are following your own spirit because God doesn't contradict himself nor ignore the word that you keep claiming you're following. If you were following it, you would follow the Spirit that Thomas was when he uttered these words of Christ.

    Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


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    And who did He humble Himself to? Himself? Or His Father?

    Straw Man. If the creator is in heaven in the form of the most perfect and Holy God, and decides that in order to save man he will come to earth in the likeness of man in order to be Savior, I would say that He humbled himself.  All Christianity says he humbled himself that way. He didn't have to do that, he did that because of his love for us. He did that because there was none to save, and so he lowered himself to do that, he took on that humility of person for our sakes. Because he so loved the world. I have noticed you constantly attempt to complicate passages so that they might appear harder to understand than they really are.


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    The First human to humble Himself to God from the age of accountability to His death.

    There is no age of accountability, you introduced that falsehood into scripture. The Bible doesn't say one word about a age when people are accountable for their sins. It's just not there. Man goes astray as a wicked sinner as soon as he is born, and the wages of sin is death. It's not only death after you reach the age of 9 or 12.  A study man would know that.

    2Ti 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


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    I thought about posted specific replies to your post, but it would make no difference it seems. We have a fundamental disagreement about scriptures. Not uncommon among men if the Bible is your guide.

    We have a foundational disagreement about Scripture. It's not a mere difference of opinion, it's what determines salvation. Is it by God or by man. Here me when I say that the foundation of God stands sure having this seal. The Lord knows them that are his (2Ti 2:19). A foundation on all his words, not the words of our own thinking.

    Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
    29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

    Fundamental as in foundational. What you build your house upon determines if your house will stand.


    Quote
    I believe Jesus the man and God the Father were of one mind.

    You can believe what you want, but that's not what the word of God says. It says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. It says Christ is God with us. It says beside God there is no Savior It says Christ created the world. It says God created the world. It says Christ was in the form of God and humbled himself to take on the form of man. Christ says before Abraham was, I Am. Christ says he was there in glory with the father before the world was. Christ said I will raise this body in three days, etc. How many ways does he have to say it? God's faithful Thomas didn't say "My Christ and my man," He said "My Lord and my God." And he meant it.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 01:41:13 PM
    Thank you for your spirit filled reply and addition to this discussion. I do believe God the Son became a man and dwelt among us. I don't believe He overcame sin and temptation by accessing powers no other human had access to. I believe this was the whole purpose of becoming a man, and not just coming as God and snapping His Fingers and making everyone righteous. I was hoping for an in-depth discussion and examination of His Word's on this subject. I expect there are some who are not interested in such a discussion.

    That's OK.

    You weren't expecting a discussion, you were expecting to come here and steam roll though Christians who were ignorant of the scriptures, but instead you found those who know manipulation of scripture when they see it. I guess you don't know what a straw man is, but I suggest you look it up, because that's all you have been presenting. Scriptures which no one denies in order to contradict scriptures that clearly teach Christ was God. That works with the naive, but not with seasoned Christians like those here.

    If mere man could overcome sin, there would be no need for a Savior God who created the world, no need for Mary to be of child by the Holy Ghost, no reason for Christ to be called "God with us." But in your narrow minded world, the power as Son of God didn't have any bearing on his sin-bearing capability. This is what you want naive people to believe, but that is not us. Try the free will forum down the street.

    Another scripture less, bitter and insulting post. I have said countless times that God became Flesh in the person of Jesus. I have also showed by His Word's, not my own, that Jesus depended on His Father to overcome, just as we are to depend on Jesus to overcome, He prayed to His Father, He humbled Himself to His Father. He gave His Father's Word's to His People, He got His People from His Father, He got the power to heal them from His Father, the Power to raise the dead from His Father, and He came here to glorify His Father. Why these truth offend you and generate so much bitterness in you is a mystery to me.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, (including His own) that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom
    hast sent[/b].

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    I am not ashamed that I believe in this Christ, even if you don't.



    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
    author=Trevor link=topic=3414.msg40934#msg40934 date=1546541363]
    Quote
    author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40930#msg40930 date=1546476903]
    I don't. I want to know what this means according to the Scriptures. I believe the answer lies with the Word of God. I address this on the last post in response to your first reply. You seem to imply that the Word's of My Savior "I and My Father are One" means that Jesus came to earth as God in all ways as God the Father, is not supported by Every Word of God.


    I don't have as much patience with this type as some do, but I'll add my two cents in here. In fact, it is supported by every word of God. Jesus and God are one, and that's exactly what the word of God says. It appears that you don't appreciate the word of God saying that, but it is what it says. You've ignored the word of God many times, but the word is not hidden in its language.

    Philippians 2:6
    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

    Why do you ignore every word of God in order to hold to your own personal interpretations?

    It seems we have a disagreement. Could you be so kind as to answer the following questions?

    Philippians 2:6
    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    When was the Christ in the Form of God? As the creator of all things, Yes? You do believe the Christ is the Creator God of the Bible I assume. So wouldn't He be in the Form of God, a Spirit, BEFORE coming to earth as Flesh and Blood in all things as His Brethren? So when He was in the form of God He counted Himself equal with God. God the Father, God the Son, both Spirits with all power.

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    But this verse says He became something different. When did the Word of God "take on Him the Form of a Servant" and when was He "made" in the likeness of Man? Was this not the virgin birth? Surely you believe the Word of God came in the Flesh. When did this happen? I believe it happened when Mary conceived and had a son by the Power of God.

    8 And being found in fashion as a man,

    When was He found in Fashion as a man? When did the Man Jesus know who that He was the God of Abraham in the Flesh? When He was 1? 5? 12?. And when the Christ found that He, the God of Abraham,  was in the Fashion of a man, what did He do?

    he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

    So when the Son of God was creating the Examples for our admonition, when He was creating "ALL" things in the form of God, He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But when He found Himself in the form of a man, He humbled Himself to His Father

    How am I understanding this wrong?

    I see how you have already judged me. The bitter scorn and hatred is dripping from your reply. I have truly come to have a discussion about various doctrines. You have said some awful things about me that do not reflect my posts. Hopefully you will show at least a modest courtesy and explain how I am understand the scripture you posted wrongly.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 05:19:28 PM
    Quote
    author=Reformer link=topic=3414.msg40941#msg40941 date=1546625528]
     author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40939#msg40939 date=1546616873]
    This seems to be a foundational doctrine of your religion. That it is impossible to "obey God". I reject your teaching that God left Adam and Eve to satan, the greatest deceiver ever to confront mankind, with no protection, no escape from the temptations,


    Another Straw Man. You are unbelievable. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to choose good and evil, and told them the day they chose evil, they would die, and they chose to disobey. They chose evil. Not God, they did that. Stop with the Staw Men, it's unbecoming a Christian.

     then punished them when they sinned,

    Did he not warn them first that they would be punished? What then are you talking about? Does God not have the right to punish man for his transgressions? He keeps his word.

    I was replying to a statement made by someone else, you have omitted this part of my conversation without which the true context of our conversation can not be understood. I'm not sure why you would do such a thing.



    Quote
    but gave His Son special powers to overcome satan no other human has ever had,


    Obviously, since no other human ever had the power to overcome Satan. You're talking in riddles that make no sense. What man overcame Satan apart from Christ? No man. So again, what are you talking about? Makes no sense.

    Again, taken out of context. The issue was, did Adam have access to the same Power the man Jesus had to overcome sin. Could Adam have chosen to trust His Creator for council as did Jesus?

    According to scriptures there were folks who overcame sin. Jesus was the first man to overcome from the age of accountability. But according to the Word of God;

    Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Did Abraham accomplish this through his own strength? Or did He trust God and follow Him as Jesus followed His Father from His youth?

    Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    Did Zechariahs guide his own footsteps, or did he trust in the Word of God even though the religions of the land around him did not.

    Did Christ not tell Cain: Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Would the Chrsit tell Cain something that it was impossible for him to do?

    Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    I don't believe man can't be called, repent, turn to God and bring forth works worthy of repentance. And I am forever grateful that Jesus became that perfect sacrifice to take away my past sins so I can deny myself, as he did, and Follow God, as He did.



    Quote
    Quote
    made Him incorruptible

    He was incorruptible because He was man created from he flesh of Mary and the Spirit from God. Have you never heard of Mary being of child by the Holy Ghost and not her betroved Joseph? Or are you deliberately being slow on the uptake?

    These are your words, just like your preaching that no man has ever overcome temptation but the Christ. God's Word said He "learned obedience", your words say He was "born obedient". No offence, but I'll stick with the giver of truth.



    Quote
    then gave Him great Glory when He wasn't corrupted.


    Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    He's not a new being, Christ had glory with God before he became man, and he is still that same person. The three persons of the Gopdhead cannot be separated. If that verse sounds like Christ was just a man like everyone else to you, while he says he had been with God since the world began, then there is no use of anyone attempting to discuss words with you because you show yourself incapable of rational discussion.

    Yes, God raised Him up from the dead, and placed Him where He was before He came to earth as a man. Glory be to God, and to His Son, Jesus the Christ.


    Quote
    This whole doctrine is flawed, and paints a horrible light on the Christ and can not be supported with scriptures.

    Not only can it be supported, it has been supported by scripture by most everyone here, and you just ignore dance around all the scriptures presented.

    Again, you have only taken one side a conversation I was having with someone else. You are not honestly representing the conversation. Jesus would never do such a thing.



    Quote
    Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    When was He in the "Form of God"? While He walked the earth as Jesus? Or before He walked the earth as Jesus?


    When was he in the form of God you ask? Read what is written, not your opinion of what is written. When He created the world as God is when. It was before he humbled himself to join with Mary and become flesh in order to redeem man. Or now are you theorizing that Christ was not in the form of God and lowered himself to took on flesh that he might redeem us. Redeem us while we were yet dead in trespass and sin.

    Wow. a simple question. When He considered Himself equal with God, what form was He in? The Form of God, or the Form of man? When He humbled Himself to the Father in obedience, what form was He in, the Form of God, or the Form of man. I didn't think the question was that difficult really, unless a person doesn't believe the Christ came to earth as a man.



    Quote
    When Jesus was the Word of God creating all things, He thought it not robbery to be equal to God. But He didn't come to earth as God, rather, as a man "in all things as His Brethren"

    A mere man by any reasonable definition doesn't come to earth from heaven as a man after being in the form of God.

    What are you even talking about? Who has ever said Jesus was Flesh and Blood when He came down from heaven? It's really simple. He was God, He became a man, was crucified according to the Scriptures, and God raised Him from the dead and gave Him a name above all names, and placed Him where He was before He became a man and dwelt among us. And what God would risk His Life for His Brethren? A Great God would lay down His life for me. That is why I trust Him and His Word's over the Popes, or other religious men from the religions of the land.

    Quote
    Quote
    A mere man is born of a man and a woman on earth. He doesn't talk about his time in heaven when he created the world. Let's stop playing games. What you are arguing is absurd and bizarre on so many levels. Logically it is downright comical. You're saying Christ was just a man like the rest of us, and God was his physical father, and he came from heaven, and he used to be in the form of God. How in any way is that a mere man?

    I am posting Scriptures, trusting God's Word over religious man. I know many don't really believe God came to earth in the Flesh. You have made this abundantly clear. The scriptures say Jesus was a man, in ALL things like unto His Brethren. Shall I deny the Christ just because you don't believe His Words? It was written, He was a man of sorrows, shall I reject this Christ just because the religions of the land don't believe He really came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren?



    Quote
    He was tempted "in all ways as His Brethren". We either believe He came in the Flesh or we don't.


    We believe he came in the flesh, we believe he was tempted like his brethren because that's why he took on the flesh. But we don't believe your far-fetched theory that he was just a man when he had no human father because his physical nativity was directly of God as well as Mary. Yet you think it is rational to believe he was still just a mere man. If he was just a man, where did the other half of his genes and chromosomes come from? He had to have a father as part of his being, did he not. The word of God says it was by the Spirit of God. You ignore this question like so many others.

    I have ignored nothing. You say you believe He came in the flesh, then in the same sentence, you preach He really didn't come in the Flesh. Who is the giver of all life? Can God not create man from dirt, can He not create man from a woman's seed? You are missing the point. God the Son "Became" Flesh and Blood. Your genetic theories about DNA are from man not from God. Does God have DNA? Does God have Genes? Is the long hair on the image you all created of God a genetic trait? Did His good looks come from God's side of the family? Really, you might actually consider the word's of your mouth before you spew them on public forums. 



    Quote
    I'm not guiding my own footsteps here Red, I'm not following some famous preacher here.


    I trust Red is not deceived by you. You say you are not guiding your own footsteps, but you are. Moreover, you are guided by a spirit, but it's not the Spirit of Christ. You are following your own spirit because God doesn't contradict himself nor ignore the word that you keep claiming you're following. If you were following it, you would follow the Spirit that Thomas was when he uttered these words of Christ.

    Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Red has been a gentile, honest and zealous brother in Christ. We have some disagreements and are, man to man, hashing them out. He hasn't insulted me, ridiculed me, lied about me, or purposely set out to defraud me. You have done all these things.

    I have never implied or even suggested God's Word contradicts itself. The Bible is perfectly clear, the Christ came to earth as a man. All scriptures agree with this.

    And for Thomas, Jesus had just been crucified and died. He was then raised from the dead. He had just walked into a room where all the doors were locked. Thomas knew He was a man but was having difficulty with the being raised from the dead part.

    25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.





    Quote
    And who did He humble Himself to? Himself? Or His Father?

    Quote
    Straw Man. If the creator is in heaven in the form of the most perfect and Holy God, and decides that in order to save man he will come to earth in the likeness of man in order to be Savior, I would say that He humbled himself.  All Christianity says he humbled himself that way. He didn't have to do that, he did that because of his love for us. He did that because there was none to save, and so he lowered himself to do that, he took on that humility of person for our sakes. Because he so loved the world. I have noticed you constantly attempt to complicate passages so that they might appear harder to understand than they really are.

    He humbled Himself to His Father. He glorified His Father. He did His Father's Will. He Gave His People His fathers Word's, His Fathers Doctrines. In all your posting you have not once confirmed this. Even in this post you only say He Humbled Himself. I have not complicated anything. You are the one who preaches about the "God Man" overcame temptations because of the Genetics of His Father.



    Quote
    The First human to humble Himself to God from the age of accountability to His death.


    There is no age of accountability, you introduced that falsehood into scripture. The Bible doesn't say one word about a age when people are accountable for their sins. It's just not there. Man goes astray as a wicked sinner as soon as he is born, and the wages of sin is death. It's not only death after you reach the age of 9 or 12.  A study man would know that.

    Again, this is your personal religion. The Scriptures say He learned obedience by the things He suffered. When did this happen. As a child, or as an adult? The Scriptures say He was born "under the law". In your religion a one year old can sin and be condemned to death? If Jesus was born under the law, what does that mean in your religion?

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    9 And being made perfect, (not born perfect as you preach) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    What things did the man Jesus suffer that caused him to be obedient?

    Prov. 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

    Shall I reject all these words just because you don't really believe them? Paul says no.

    Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    If God said He came in the Flesh in all things as his Brethren, then He came in the Flesh. Whether you believe this or not is of no consequence. , nor does it change or alter the Word of God.

    Quote
    2Ti 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Amen!!!



    Quote
    I thought about posted specific replies to your post, but it would make no difference it seems. We have a fundamental disagreement about scriptures. Not uncommon among men if the Bible is your guide.


    We have a foundational disagreement about Scripture. It's not a mere difference of opinion, it's what determines salvation. Is it by God or by man. Here me when I say that the foundation of God stands sure having this seal. The Lord knows them that are his (2Ti 2:19). A foundation on all his words, not the words of our own thinking.

    Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
    29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

    Fundamental as in foundational. What you build your house upon determines if your house will stand.

    Not just hearing His Word's written from the foundation of the World, but "living by them" as Jesus the Man did.



    Quote
    I believe Jesus the man and God the Father were of one mind.


    You can believe what you want, but that's not what the word of God says. It says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. It says Christ is God with us. It says beside God there is no Savior It says Christ created the world. It says God created the world. It says Christ was in the form of God and humbled himself to take on the form of man. Christ says before Abraham was, I Am. Christ says he was there in glory with the father before the world was. Christ said I will raise this body in three days, etc. How many ways does he have to say it? God's faithful Thomas didn't say "My Christ and my man," He said "My Lord and my God." And he meant it.

    Yes, Jesus the man did say these things. He also said His Father was greater than all. That His Father gave Him power over all flesh. He prayed to His Father for strength to over come. He prayed to His Father to Raise Lazarus from the dead. He came to bring His Father's Words. He became perfect through suffering, not as you preach, because he has certain DNA or genetics.

    Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    It certainly is a foundational issue. Did the Word of God really come in the Flesh and overcome temptation by Faith in His God? Or was He a God Man who only looked like a man, but overcame sin by His own supernatural power.

    As for me, I sticking with the truth giver.

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, (Not born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;




    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 04, 2019, 07:48:53 PM
    Quote
    author=Red link=topic=3414.msg40938#msg40938 date=1546598490]
     author=Trevor link=topic=3414.msg40934#msg40934 date=1546541363]John 2:19
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    John 2:20
    Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    John 2:21
    But he spake of the temple of his body.
    As Jehovah God, the everlasting Father of all things~he raised Himself up! He was saying to the blinded Jews that he was God, and they did not pick up on what he was saying to them, much like religious people of today.

    I agree with you on this. I just also believe the Christ when He says He received His Power to raise Himself from God the Father. Because as a man in all things like His Brethren, He would not have the power to resist temptations, much less raise Himself from the Dead.

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, (Not Born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I just think it is important not to omit these truths from our understanding of His Word.


    Quote
    As the Son of Man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, he was raised from the dead by the power of God, the same power that quickened us from being dead in sins to spiritual life. =The apostle Paul]Ephesians 1:19-23~"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

    Absolutely.

    Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    30 I and my Father are one.

    Eph. 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


    Quote
    It's a matter of laboring of rightly dividing the word of God so that we preserved the deity of Jesus Christ as the True God and the only source of eternal life~ and that life is through HIS FAITH and OBEDIENCE ALONE, as the man called JESUS, who was sent by God to save his people from their sins, and HE DID! Matthew 1:21; John 19:30; Ephesians 2:5-8; etc.

    I am simply Trusting the Word's of the Christ and He says:

    John 1:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Shall I not trust the Word's of my Savior?




    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Rich Aikers on January 05, 2019, 12:22:09 AM
    Hey guys,
      The doctrine of the Trinity is the central doctrine of any faithful Christian religion. Without it, Christianity falls apart. It was always considered heresy to deny the Trinity. This is because it is a central truth that in the unity of the Godhead, there are three persons. They are God the Father, God the Son, and god the Holy Spirit. These three persons are truly inseparable and yet truly distinct one from another in their purpose. The Son the Mediator, the Spirit the guiding and evangelizing force and the Father the glorious being from whom these flow. Don't be deceived, the Trinity is essential to Christianity.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 05, 2019, 05:26:02 AM
    I agree with you on this. I just also believe the Christ when He says He received His Power to raise Himself from God the Father. Because as a man in all things like His Brethren, He would not have the power to resist temptations, much less raise Himself from the Dead.
    Sir, here is where you do err, please consider carefully our differences: (I highlighted this in red) We must keep Jesus' two natures separated when reading the scriptures which you are not doing, and it will not allow you to see the truth.

    An example of where we must keep Jesus' complex natures separated or we will not be able to see the truth, even though one may think they do, they cannot.
    Quote from: The apostle John
    John 2:18-22~"Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."
    Sir, just as Jesus was speaking of his body, he also was speaking AS The I AM THAT I AM~he was not saying that he would get this power from God (as you are saying) to raise himself up, but that HE WOULD raise himself up as JEHOVAH GOD possessing all power in heaven and earth. One of the many scriptures proving that Jesus was MORE THAN A MAN, he was indeed the TRUE God and eternal life, to impart this life to whomsoever he will.
    Quote from: The apostle John again
    John 5:21-23~"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
    In their divine nature they are ONE. Jesus did NOT derive his divine nature from God, but IN his DIVINE nature he IS GOD, period.  Without controversy, the great mystery of godliness hidden within the holy scriptures for us to search out and apply accordingly as we read the scriptures so as not to rob Jesus Christ of being the everlasting Father of ALL THINGS.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM
    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, (Not Born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Sir, I fully agree with the Holy Ghost in Hebrews 5:7 as it has reference to the humanity of Jesus Christ, no problem. Also the same with Hebrews 5:8, but NOT with your added comments where you said:
    Quote from: Studyman  Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM
    And being made perfect, (Not Born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach)
    He WAS perfect both in his Divinity (which could NOT be tempted with sin) and his humanity, being conceived by the power of the HIGHEST in the womb of a virgin woman named Mary~Jesus did not come through the generation/posterity of the first Adam.....AGAIN, Jesus was a complex person fully man, also, fully God, when the Word, in the beginning, joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. ONLY his humanity grew in wisdom, NOT his Divinity! You just cannot accept that he was BOTH man and God. These two natures were not on a toggle switch~they simple was WHO HE WAS~the SON OF THE LIVING GOD, along with being the Son of Man. These two natures NEVER interact with each other~it simply was who Jesus Christ was and STILL IS.
    Quote from: Studyman  Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM
    I just think it is important not to omit these truths from our understanding of His Word.
    Well, that's what I am saying to you concerning Jesus' complex natures. The truth is that he was in the form of God BEFORE he was made flesh being the I AM THAT I AM~ but ALSO DURING the days of his flesh he was God, yet he humbled himself to endured the cross, though despising the shame~he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross~even though he was in the form of God in his Divinity being the Alpha and the Omega, the FIRST and the last.

    Can I ask you a question? Are you a Jew by nature? Your theology would make me think that you are.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 05, 2019, 05:48:34 AM
    Where is it written God created Adam without a "sin nature"? What does that even mean? This phrase isn't even mentioned in the Bible. Of course God hates iniquity. But a human must "learn" to hate iniquity. He must "Learn" to choose the good and reject the evil.
    I'll come back and answer this. I have a couple of other things to do first.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: James Heckman on January 05, 2019, 08:39:49 AM
    Hey guys,
      The doctrine of the Trinity is the central doctrine of any faithful Christian religion. Without it, Christianity falls apart. It was always considered heresy to deny the Trinity. This is because it is a central truth that in the unity of the Godhead, there are three persons.

     )iagree(  Trinitarianism is part of the Christian doctrine so that you are considered a Christian by believing that Christ and the Holy Spirit are God. Thus how can those who don't hold to this distinctly Christian doctrine be considered Christian?

    But it's not just It's not just Jehovah's Witnesses or one heretical group, modern nontrinitarian groups include renegade individuals who have abandoned religion, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians, the United Church of God and more. Islam is also a religion of anti-Trinitarianism. Islam is like Anti Trinitarianism in that it teaches the absolute indivisibility of God, with several verses of the Koran teaching that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is blasphemous. So even Islam recognizes that the doctrine is a distinctly Christian belief rooted in Christ and God's Spirit at work in the world. Thus the doctrine of anti-trinitarianism is distinctly not Christian.

    Galatians 1:6-9
    "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

    The Doctrine of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as one God, is the core of Christianity, not a non-essential segment of this group.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
    Quote
    author=Red link=topic=3414.msg40947#msg40947 date=1546683962]
     author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40945#msg40945 date=1546649333]I agree with you on this. I just also believe the Christ when He says He received His Power to raise Himself from God the Father. Because as a man in all things like His Brethren, He would not have the power to resist temptations, much less raise Himself from the Dead.

    Sir, here is where you do err, please consider carefully our differences: (I highlighted this in red) We must keep Jesus' two natures separated when reading the scriptures which you are not doing, and it will not allow you to see the truth.


    Thank you again for your heart felt response. It seems You have built an entire doctrine around the teaching that Jesus had two natures, something which has never been mentioned in the Bible. If I understand you correctly you are preaching That He was a man in appearance until He got tempted, then He kicked in His God nature to resist sin. My problem with this is the lack of scriptures to support it, and the volumes of scriptures which teach against it.

     These Word's mean something even if folks have been convinced they are above them. Would seasoned preachers of God's Word, who had been teaching religious traditions of men for centuries, listen to a nobody Carpenter who opened their own Book and showed them in it where they are in error? No!! They didn't then and they won't now. But my hope is someone on this forum already questions the religions of the land. I want them to know they are not alone.


    Quote
    An example of where we must keep Jesus' complex natures separated or we will not be able to see the truth, even though one may think they do, they cannot.
    Quote from: The apostle John
    John 2:18-22~"Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."


    It is true "this temple" was His Human self. And this temple was most assuredly destroyed. He did indeed die, as all humans do. And for 3 days and 3 nights this man Jesus was dead. And would still be dead if not for God the Father which raised Him from the dead as this same Father raised Lazarus from the dead. And the Body which the Christ now exists in, is not the Flesh and Blood Body that was destroyed. He is no longer the human He came to earth as, but a Spiritual Body able to walk through closed doors and ascend to and from heaven. He lived in the flesh for a time, died, and was resurrected. Is this not my Hope for myself as well?

    1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Acts 2: 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

    Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    1 cor. 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2 cor. 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

    Eph. 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Does your understanding of John 2 make all these scriptures void? The Apostles, They were with Him, shall I not listen to them?

    Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Matt. 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Matt. 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

    Matt. 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


    I could go on and on. I haven't even gotten to the Prophesies which foretell Him coming to earth, not as God, but as a Man.

    Shall I throw all these Word's out the window so I can be accepted by the religions of the land? Shall I reject where the Christ Himself tells us where He get's His Power? Who He trusted in, who He depended on?

    My friend, I don't have a religion or a religious doctrine to defend. My Lord has freed me from the religious doctrines and traditions of men so it is easy for me to simply take the scriptures at their Word. And they teach that Jesus came in the Flesh "in all things as His Brethren". He suffered temptation and resisted with the power of God His Father. He suffered fear and overcame with the power of God His Father. He died and was brought back to life with the Power of God His Father.

    Of course He did, as it is written He came in the Flesh. I have no reason to deny Him in this truth.

    Quote
    Sir, just as Jesus was speaking of his body, he also was speaking AS The I AM THAT I AM~he was not saying that he would get this power from God (as you are saying) to raise himself up, but that HE WOULD raise himself up as JEHOVAH GOD possessing all power in heaven and earth.

    He was "JEHOVAH GOD possessing all power in heaven and earth" in the form of God before He came to earth as a man "in all things as His Brethren", He is "JEHOVAH GOD possessing all power in heaven and earth" after God Glorified Him and Gave Him the glory He had before the world was and placed Him on His Right side. But from the time He became flesh and passed through the womb of Mary, and "learned obedience by the things He suffered" until being nailed to the cross and crucified, He was Flesh and Blood like unto His Brethren. He feared like His brethren, He felt pain like His brethren, He died like His Brethren. I don't know why you would want to take this away from Him. I know "many" who come in Christ's Name teach He really didn't come in the flesh like His Brethren, that He was also "Fully God". But Jesus knew better than this, therefore when He, the God of Abraham, was found in the fashion of man, (what age this was I'm not sure, not 1, or 3, but older as He was "learning obedience") He humbled Himself to God and "became obedient" unto death so that He would not be distracted from becoming the flawless sacrifice, the "work" He finished on the cross.

    It's about "Every Word of God" to me. I just can't believe that Moses was deceived, Isaiah was deceived, David in the Spirit was deceived, when they all prophesied of God raising up a Man from among His Brethren to become the Messiah. But the same religion which created Lent, Purgatory, the image of God in the likeness of a long haired men's hair shampoo model, are not deceived. That the Law and the Prophets are not truth, but religions which create images of God in the likeness of men,, who create their own High Days, their own definition of Holy are truth. My sincere hope is that you might consider this even if it is uncomfortable.

    Quote
    One of the many scriptures proving that Jesus was MORE THAN A MAN, he was indeed the TRUE God and eternal life, to impart this life to whomsoever he will.
    Quote from: The apostle John again
    John 5:21-23~"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    You claim that He was "more than a man" but He knew where His Power came from, and it wasn't Himself.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And if he had allowed Himself to do as Adam did, who is left to save the repentant of the world?

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Quote
    In their divine nature they are ONE. Jesus did NOT derive his divine nature from God, but IN his DIVINE nature he IS GOD, period.  Without controversy, the great mystery of godliness hidden within the holy scriptures for us to search out and apply accordingly as we read the scriptures so as not to rob Jesus Christ of being the everlasting Father of ALL THINGS.

    You preach He came to earth as God. The Bible says He came to earth as a Man. You preach He was born with a Divine nature, the Bible says He learned obedience by the things He suffered. You preach He was God "period". The Bible teaches He became Flesh and Blood like unto His Brethren. This is the reason for our misunderstanding. I mean no offence, and I understand the implications.

    Quote
    =Studyman Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM ]Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, (Not Born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


     Sir, I fully agree with the Holy Ghost in Hebrews 5:7 as it has reference to the humanity of Jesus Christ, no problem. Also the same with Hebrews 5:8, but NOT with your added comments where you said: =Studyman  Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM] And being made perfect, (Not Born perfect as many who come in Christ's name preach)He WAS perfect both in his Divinity (which could NOT be tempted with sin) and his humanity, being conceived by the power of the HIGHEST in the womb of a virgin woman named Mary~Jesus did not come through the generation/posterity of the first Adam.....AGAIN, Jesus was a complex person fully man, also, fully God, when the Word, in the beginning, joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. ONLY his humanity grew in wisdom, NOT his Divinity! You just cannot accept that he was BOTH man and God.

    I can only accept what the Bible says about Him Red. "He was made perfect". Not 1/2 of Him was made perfect. God is already perfect. God doesn't need to "Learn obedience from the things He suffered". He became obedient and was made perfect. You teach He was born perfect. Jesus wasn't so sure, therefore he Humbled Himself to God and became obedient unto death.

    Listen to your statement here; "ONLY his humanity grew in wisdom, NOT his Divinity! You just cannot accept that he was BOTH man and God."

     Only His humanity grew in wisdom? Where in all the Word of God did you find that quote? Where is any Biblical support for this statement. Who is teaching you these things? It's not in the Word of God.

    I had one person on this forum try and convince me that Jesus carried God's "genes". That God's Genetic makeup was in Christ, like God has DNA. Like God placed His own Sperm in Mary? Where does this stuff come from. Certainly not from His Word.

    Quote
    These two natures were not on a toggle switch~they simple was WHO HE WAS~the SON OF THE LIVING GOD, along with being the Son of Man. These two natures NEVER interact with each other~it simply was who Jesus Christ was and STILL IS. =Studyman  Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 07:48:53 PM]I just think it is important not to omit these truths from our understanding of His Word.[/size Well, that's what I am saying to you concerning Jesus' complex natures. The truth is that he was in the form of God BEFORE he was made flesh being the I AM THAT I AM~ but ALSO DURING the days of his flesh he was God, yet he humbled himself to endured the cross, though despising the shame~he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross~even though he was in the form of God in his Divinity being the Alpha and the Omega, the FIRST and the last.

    "but ALSO DURING the days of his flesh he was God"

    The man Jesus who can bleed died and no longer exists, having been raised a Spiritual body and now sits at the Right Hand of God, where He was before laying down His Life for me.. The Man Jesus who can feel pain no longer exists. He was born (His beginning) He died (His End) His Father raised Him and He was given an immortal Body which can no longer feel pain. The man Jesus can be scared. This man no longer exists, this man died, and was raised a Spiritual body which can no longer feel fear. The man Jesus was the first human to ever die and be raised from the dead and ascend into heaven where God the Father is. The man Jesus could be tortured, harassed, beaten, bruised, bullied. This Man is no longer here, He died, and was raised a Spiritual Body which can not be tortured, bruised, bullied. I don't know why you can't accept this.


    God became Flesh and endured all these things on our behalf. Yet Mainstream Christianity would erase all this by claiming He really didn't have anything to fear because He was God, so the fear was just a show. That He really didn't overcome temptation by Faith in God, because He was God so the temptation was just a show, not real. That Jesus and satan must have gotten together and made a deal. "OK satan, you know I am God with all God's power and you know you can't tempt Me. But do it anyway so we can preserve the appearance that I'm a man like the Law and Prophets prophesy, but it's really just a show.

    "Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". Just showbizness. "Walk even as he walked", just more slight of hand. How can we walk as He walked if He was God and over came sin by accessing powers no other human has ever had.

    So I believe, as the scriptures teach, that the God of Abraham became Flesh in all things as His Brethren. That He was tempted "in all ways as His Brethren". And as a man He overcame, not because He accessed powers no other human has access to, but because He humbled Himself to God in all things, and by Faith in His father, He overcame.

    REv. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    Quote
    Can I ask you a question? Are you a Jew by nature? Your theology would make me think that you are.

    No, I'm not a Jew, though Jesus did say "Salvation is of the Jews". No, I went to church just like everybody else. But for some reason I started noticing things being done by the various religious franchises that I am convinced Jesus would never condone and certainly wouldn't have done Himself. So I spent 15 years in hard study outside the influence of organized religion, I followed the Christ's instructions as best I could as He said to do, and a whole different understanding was brought to my mind. I have since met many others who have experienced the same thing. In this understanding every scriptures agrees with every other scripture like a river of living water. There are countless doctrines taught in the hundreds of slightly differing religions of this land. But the truth about who Jesus was, and what it really means when His Word says He came to earth in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren, is a good place to start.

    Once again, I thank you for the discussion. I know how difficult it was for me in the beginning. The divisions He brought with His Word's. I know what you are saying, and I understand the doctrine. I just don't see the Scriptures as a whole supporting it. I do appreciate you not hurling insults and ridicule. And you must know I am only following what the Scriptures are telling me.








    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lower on January 05, 2019, 10:17:41 PM
    Studyman

    Oh, ..., I thought you would stop disrespecting God, keep your soulish mind's imagination to yourself and not preach anything of your head. You don't seem the kind of person who could do that - but that's only because you don't believe what is written - on one hand, through avoidance of many of the scripture references people have given you. One the other hand, not seeing the truth even in the verses of scripture you yourself brought. The latter is what happened to you when you take the word of God as if it has sprung from you! I am just explaining how we see the message entailed within your posts as usual as others have also done in an attempt to help you understand your errors.

    I will send some list of scripture references (again) for your consideration. Those that we believe are against your personal thoughts and beliefs. But before that I would like to ask you keep trying be a man on the issue you have raised and stop crying like a baby after you received rebuke from us because of our position on the humanity and deity of Lord Christ Jesus on the basis of the Word of God. By now you need to understand that we (the people who responded with scripture that He the Lord did solve our problems both as Man and as God) are not children, we can never be tossed --- plus we are armed and have the ability to judge. So if it is too much for you to bear, you have every right to leave us alone and join some other forums who will be fine with you, those who will be patient to see you stay with them even though you blaspheme God.

    Mat 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
    You have offended, not just one, but many of us already. Be careful, I don't think you meant it intentionally ... but your game is dangerous. So again a reminder for you to be both responsible and accountable for your doctrines.

    [Did you notice that you also did ridicule, and put a false label on us; such as your assumption that we be like unto the people who follow a pope or those who worship images of God. I have informed you that we are Bible Discerning Christians, then why insist? But, nobody will take that seriously, we will tolerate your ideas against us. However we cannot tolerate your ideas - your position on this thread - and we will respond till you understand your errors and you stop fooling yourself]


    Here is a summary of your errors:

    - twisting, manipulating the words and changing their meaning (causing confusion, making the truth difficult to be understood)
    - denial of the doctrine of TRINITY
    - denying the deity of the Holy Spirit (you don't believe that He is the God)
    - denying the role of the deity "of" Christ Jesus in salvation (i.e. together with the role of the deity "in" Christ - this you believe) [I hate to see how you complicate things to confuse people]
    - your rejection of the doctrine that the Man Jesus was born "without sin", He was perfect because He came from and out of Heaven/Father.
    - your ignorance of equating Jesus with corruptible humans. You deny that God "sanctified" His Son before He sent Him to the world and thus He was born with the ability to withstand sin and also was a man that couldn't sin. (This is offensive to you but that's the truth)
    - introducing heretic doctrine of yours: the age of accountability
    - You said you believe God came in the flesh; yet you deny God came in the flesh. You believe Jesus came in the flesh; yet, you deny that that means "God with us" (God incarnate).
    - avoidance of the truth that Jesus (only Jesus) was one with the Father "in terms of power and authority" for example in: 1) saving sinners 2) to keep the sheep from loss and 3) to give eternal life. (This is what we meant by Jesus and the Father are one. Apart from this another type of 'oneness' is taught in John 17 - described as the oneness of the elect with Jesus and with the Father - but I noticed you made riddles out of that like you did with every other scripture brought to you, nothing but to satisfy your curiosity without end of mocking God. The teaching of the word of God in that chapter is that of Christ's honest request to the Father that His will be done where, they the elect [for whom He shed His blood] be found and be translated into the Kingdom of Heaven that they be "one" with Him in the sense that they are no more of this world but are now from "heaven". But this truth is hidden from you because you are prepared to rob Jesus of His glory.)
    - you contradict yourself when you talked about the creation of Adam and his condition before he sinned before the fall. You seemed to me like a follower of Arminianism or who goes after works-based righteousness when it comes to the discussion you gave about the condition of children of Adam (after the fall, i.e., men in this world). The worst of all is your argument that all men (by that you meant including Jesus, silly!) are born imperfect and should learn to withstand sin, obedience through suffering, when the age of accountability comes by the power of God. Bla bla and blas ... Your knowledge of Jesus is flawed, your view of fallen humanity is corrupt.

    These are my way of presenting your views from the posts you made. You can write back if I have made mistake of putting your idea. But I want to know if you agree with this list as the important points of disagreement (your errors viewed from my side), so we can carry on discussion knowing exactly our differences are. If not it is waste of time ... even for you.

    There is a proverb they say in my country: "if three people tell your head is absent, raise your hand and check it." By mentioning that what I meant to say is you need to consider the advice given from many people, use that for your own sake if you will, examine yourself whether or not you are in line with God's truth.

    Did it occur to you that you might have erred at least once when you replied to each post and every variable from all people? Are you infallible? And with almost the same and similar answer to all questions? How come?
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lower on January 06, 2019, 12:24:35 AM
    Studyman

    My response to your opposition on the examples I sent to you about the Lord Jesus and His Power.

    First of all, when I wrote about the transfiguration of Lord Jesus, I was speaking about the three men that were with Him. I actually said, "WHO SAW HIM TRANSFIGURE" meaning I was NOT referring to the two men in the vision plus Jesus. But to Peter, James, and John. And it is my heart's conviction that none of these men were able to "transfigure" no-matter what they learned from Jesus' transfiguration. That makes Lord Jesus 'unique', if I may use that term.

    Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    My intention of bringing the example of Christ's transfiguration was to show you how He revealed His Divine "face" to them in a way they can bear it by the help of the Spirit of God (them living in an 'unglorified bodies'). But Jesus did show them His glory and majesty! That the Holy Spirit has later inspired such as the following to be written as witness to WHO the Lord was:

    2Pe 1:16  For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    (This alone is sufficient to teach you that Jesus came to the world with power; in Him was the fulness of Godhead dwelt bodily. 2Pe 1:16 is saying "the power and coming" of our Lord Jesus Christ - showing that this was before His death and resurrection, actually in His coming to the world in the flesh, so make no mistake!)

    My points again (bold statements I can make on behalf of the Lord to the glory of the Lord):

    - If you search the whole Bible, you will learn that there was no man but Jesus (and only Jesus) who had transfigured!
    - Only Jesus did walk on water! (This is my repetition of the truth which become difficult for you to understand because you chose to worship a God who came in the flesh as a man and became just like you and me.) [You told me that Peter also walked ... Do you call that walking?! I call that attempt to walk, and he did try only after he learned that from Jesus!)
    - Only Jesus did raise a dead that was laid in a grave "for four days and that stinketh!" Read in John 11. [No man has done this, ever! I read the Holy Bible and learn what it teaches about what God has done using his messengers during OT, no man has brought back to life a stinking corpse that was in his grave for four days --- Do you want to learn what God has said about His glorious Son? Any person who obeys the written Word of God, a study man, will be able to see the truth by studying the whole Bible that it was Only Jesus who has done that! Because other examples found in both OT and NT were not done on decomposing bodies! Correct me if I am wrong. About raising a stinking corpse from grave.]
    - Do we have something so special to learn about Jesus from John 11? Yes. That Jesus was simply not like unto His brethren - Him being THE resurrection, and THE life! (Does the Word of God in John 11 teach that Jesus was just a mere man?)

    - And it was the glorious Lord Jesus who divided the Red Sea. All the glory goes to God, Amen:

    Psa 66:5  Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his doing toward the children of men.
    Psa 66:6  He turned the sea into dry land: they went through the flood on foot: there did we rejoice in him.

    Psa 136:13  To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

    Act 7:35  This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
    Act 7:36  He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

    Psa 74:12  For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
    Psa 74:13  Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.

    Psa 78:13  He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
    Psa 78:14  In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
    Psa 78:15  He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
    Psa 78:16  He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.
    Psa 78:17  And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
    Psa 78:18  And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust. 

    Psa 106:7  Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
    Psa 106:8  Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
    Psa 106:9  He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness.
    Psa 106:10  And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
    Psa 106:11  And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left.
    Psa 106:12  Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.

    Exo 15:20  And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
    Exo 15:21  And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Tony Warren on January 06, 2019, 02:06:52 AM
    >>>
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    But this verse says He became something different.
    <<<

    As others have noted before, here again, you seem to be attempting to manipulate what is "actually" stated. I'm sure you know that the Scripture doesn't say that God became something different, it "literally" says that "God took the form of a Servant." That's quite different from the portrait that you attempt to paint of Him becoming something different other than God. He didn't cease to be God when He took the form of man, He was still God the creator. The only God appeared in form as a man. But don't take my word for it, this also evidenced by His own words that it was "HE" (Jesus Christ) that would raise his body up from the dead. A fact you have chosen to gloss over as if it is insignificant. However, you rightly say it was God who raised Him up, that also proving that Christ was God. The Word of God clearly contradicts any idea that Christ was not God in the flesh and that He would raise up His body.

    John 2:19

    Some might feel better if it were written differently, but Christ didn't say "My God will raise it up," He said He (Jesus Christ) would raise it up when they destroyed it. He was unambiguously still speaking "as God" because He was God. Yet humbled in the form of a man in order to suffer and redeem man. It's not rocket science, it's clearly what is written.


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    When did the Word of God "take on Him the Form of a Servant" and when was He "made" in the likeness of Man? Was this not the virgin birth? Surely you believe the Word of God came in the Flesh. When did this happen? I believe it happened when Mary conceived and had a son by the Power of God.
    <<<

    You said it "almost" right. Almost. The question from Scripture is when did God take on Himself the form of a servant. Not the form put on someone else, when "HE" would take on that form. You see, even in your obfuscation of this, the truth of the word of God always shines through. God didn't become a different person as you've implied, from Scripture honestly rendered, we see God clearly took on Himself the form of a servant. On Him! In other words, HE was made in the likeness of men. Not someone else, "HE/GOD" came in the form of a man. You seem to want to admit that, and yet at the same time contradict that making God just a man on earth. You are basically declaring, No he wasn't God, Jesus was just a man and not God. That cannot stand the test of Scripture.

    Psalms 45:6

    There is no faithful construction of Scripture that can ever be devised to change the sense that this speaks of God the Son, who has given us an eternal Kingdom because He is God come in the flesh to redeem us from sin. This also confirmed by the faithful Apostle Paul speaking of the faithfulness of God as Saviour. This in the perpetuity of His kingdom, His government, and this Saviour God. Not a throne reserved for a mere man who somehow overcame sin and Satan, but for the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. Paul also confirming that this Scripture of God in Psalms 45 spoke of Jesus as God. The Apostle quotes Psalms 45 and says it speaks of Christ.

    Hebrews 1:8

    Illustrating Thomas didn't misspeak, Jesus was His Lord and His God. The Son, Jesus Christ, was not just a man, He was God and He ascended to His throne to again take his place as the second person of the Godhead in Heaven--His salvific work having been completed. Work which you claim was of Christ a mere man who was not God.


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    When was He found in Fashion as a man?
    <<<

    In order to understand that, you would have to not only study the Scriptures, but study them with an "eye" to receive what is written within them. Not study in order to negate, contradict or manipulate them. Read the plain language and learn when God was found in the form of man.

    John 8:56-59

    When Christ said "I AM" He was declaring plainly that He was God, and what's more, the Jews, who were also study men, knew it. That is why they took up stones to stone Him. Because they thought He was blaspheming in declaring that He was God. Little did they know (like you) that He indeed Was God. That is how Christ knew Abraham before He was even born, and how He could declare that HE was before Abraham. He was, not someone else, but this God Christ. How you can continue to feign that this means He wasn't God is just astounding. If He wasn't God, why did He say before Abraham was I AM, illustrating He was God long before Abraham was? Can you not understand what that means? Christ is the Great I Am that Told Moses to tell Pharaoh to let His people go.


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    When did the Man Jesus know who that He was the God of Abraham in the Flesh?
    <<<

    Since He was obviously God, He was all-knowing. To ask when God knew something is not really to know God at all. Christ was not just a man, He was the God-man.

    John 1:47-49

    Yet you continually parrot the line that Christ was just a man and not God. What man do you know who has or ever had such powers? Indeed, Nathanael most certainly recognized Him as the Son of God because of His powers. That is in fact how He could say He would raise up His body after 3 days in the grave, and that is how he could as a man suffer the death of the wrath of God and "YET" come out the other side in the flesh alive. By any rational idiom, language or rationale, no mere man could accomplish such tasks. It would take a perfect uncorrupted man to be laden with the billions of sins of the world. It would take a God-Man to afterward raise Himself up having suffered God's wrath for ALL that iniquity. The only Question is--is this what the word of God says. And the only "honest" answer is absolutely!

    Isaiah 53:712

    All we have to do is believe what the word says rather than attempt to twist it to say something it cannot say, like a mere man could do all this and raise Himself from the dead in 3 days. If that was the case, God could have picked any man. But of course, any man just wouldn't work because mere man cannot pay for his own sins, much less the sins of the whole world. Again, it is not rocket science, and it cannot be gainsaid or resisted. When God looked down the corridors of time and saw that there was no man, no not one, who could resist sin that He could enter the Kingdom of heaven, God brought salvation to man by His own arm. Rather than argue with God, we worship, and praise and give Thank Him for that selfless Sacrifice of self for us.

    1st John 2:1

    A mere man? That makes no sense at all. A God man makes sense because it's biblical and true.


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    But when He found Himself in the form of a man, He humbled Himself to His Father
    <<<

    Sorry, but He didn't "find" Himself in the form of a man, He "took the form of a man" to become a servant unto death. That's how He humbled Himself. Why is it you don't like the actual language that is used in scripture but seem to have to manipulate it to appear to say what you want? In the literal Greek, it is "He took the form of a servant." Not He made a man and He (GOD) was not in that form that He made. He (GOD) took the form of a man. The Scriptures are not that complicated to a 2nd Timothy 2:15 study man.

    1st Corinthians 15:45-47

    The Second man/Adam is God. I know I shouldn't assume, but I'm assuming we all know that the second Adam is Christ, who we read was not only natural (flesh) but Spiritual. Man and God. The first Adam is born only of the earth (clay/flesh), but the second Adam is born of the earth (Mary) but also of the Spirit. The name Adam indeed means earth. The second Adam was the first and only begotten of the father. As wew read before, by the Spirit that came upon Mary.

    Insomuch as the First Adam sprung only from the earth, he is "earthy." As God plainly said in Genesis 2:7 and 3:19, "Dust thou art"). Adam and Eve were of the earth literally. But the second Adam is not a mere man born only of earth, He was born of the Spirit. In fact, Scripture says the only or sole begotten of God. So again we see that everything the Bible has to say always points the faithful Christian to the fact that Jesus was not just an ordinary man as you surmise, He was fully man but also fully God.

    "nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Tony Warren on January 06, 2019, 02:34:36 AM
    >>>
    I was replying to a statement made by someone else, you have omitted this part of my conversation without which the true context of our conversation can not be understood. I'm not sure why you would do such a thing.
    <<<

    Studyman, the conversations all remain here in the thread for anyone to read what you originally said. I think we can "assume" that people are actually reading the thread and know what you said.  No one should post an entire message conversation in a quote, that's not how replies with quotes is supposed to work. We'd have to read every post again and again every time someone posted if that was the case. We shouldn't "assume' someone is being devious if they don't re-post our entire message. That's what the link at the top of the quote is for, so anyone can click on it to see what was originally said in its full context. For example, my quote above is just the small part of the discussion that I want to address, not your whole post. That's the best way to use the quote feature. 


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    According to scriptures there were folks who overcame sin. Jesus was the first man to overcome from the age of accountability. But according to the Word of God;
    <<<

    Surely you are not "implying" that we can overcome our own sin? I would be remiss if I didn't at least comment on this. Actually, no one overcomes their sin (transgressions)  "apart" from the efficacy of Christ's work. Those men in Scripture called righteous were "not" righteous of themselves, but only because they were the elect of God according to His will. Not their own.

    Ephesians 1:3-5

    Their righteousness was by faith, just as Abraham's was. Not by their own merit. Yes, we can grow in grace where we will sin less through the Spirit of God and power of Christ. But that's not us overcoming sin, that's us growing in grace because Christ overcame sin for us and has sent us of His Spirit, the comforter. We overcome sin "only" because He overcame sin.

    Revelation 2:7

    To many, that may sound like we overcome through our own good works and are then rewarded by Christ, but that's not really the what is said at all. He that overcomes is he that has been given the faith of Christ to overcome. It's by God's own Sovereign grace and for His own purposes, not by works or because of our own righteousness.

    Moreover, I must also agree with my friends that there is no age of accountability. That is a doctrine that is "foreign" to the Scriptures. In other words, it is a belief "read into" Scripture, not one read from the Scriptures. The wages of sin (any sin) is death. There are no extenuating circumstances, there is only responsibility for our actions.

    Ezekiel 18:4

    God has never made any distinction from a 10 year old to a 30 year old. We can thank God that He provides grace so that anyone can be saved. From the child of 8 to the man of 80. Not because of age, but because of Sovereign Grace. To bring it to an elementary level, Pharoah was as unsaved when he was 2 years old as he was when he turned 20. He never lost His salvation after he reached a certain age, therefore He couldn't have been saved or held unaccountable as a child. For no one can lose their salvation. If He was Saved as a child by His age, He would be saved as an adult. Else no one's salvation is secure.


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    Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Did Abraham accomplish this through his own strength? Or did He trust God and follow Him as Jesus followed His Father from His youth?
    <<<

    The question is not did he trust God, because we "all agree" that he did. The real relevant question is why He trusted God? And the answer is only because God was the originator of His faith. Unlike Christ, Abraham still sinned, as did every other human being the world has ever seen except Christ!

    Hebrews 12:2

    God was the author of Abraham's faith that assured him that no matter how he sinned, all his sins from the day he was born to the day he died (which were many), were washed away. Christ didn't sin, period. Abraham was a mere man. He couldn't forgive anyone's sins, He couldn't create the world, He couldn't walk on water. And we can't equate Abraham with Christ regarding sin or righteousness, except that Christ was his righteousness. Abraham was a prophet and [skia] of the Covenant of Christ.


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    Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
    <<<

    The righteousness of Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous "only" because of their faith in Christ. By contrast, Christ was righteous because of Himself being righteous. Big Difference! Zacharias and Elizabeth were both righteous before God just as all true Believers today are righteous before God because of Christ. That doesn't mean we don't commit sin as it means with Christ.

    Philippians 3:9

    Christ had His own righteousness. No man is perfect like Christ was, we all have sinned and fallen short. David was righteous before God, but do you think he never sinned as Christ didn't?

    Hebrews 4:15

    Once again proof that Christ was no mere man as we, but was the only non-sinning man worthy of the title of Lord and God. King David murdered a man for his wife, yet he was righteous before God because He was elect, had a Redeemer which was Christ, and all His transgressions were washed away. He was clean before God. He lived in faith looking forward to the finished work of Christ, we live in faith looking backward to the finished work of Christ. It's the same principle. He wasn't righteous in himself and indeed no mere man ever. Only the God-man Christ. This because He was more than a man, fathered by God to reconcile the world to Him.

    1st Corinthians 1:29-31

    Why would anyone glory in Christ if He were just a mere man? We glory in Christy because He is God's fulfilled word living in the flesh.


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    Did Christ not tell Cain: Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Would the Chrsit tell Cain something that it was impossible for him to do?
    <<<

    John 6:65
    Revelation 22:17

    A contradiction of God or a misunderstanding of man? Obviously, it is man who hasn't reconciled these verses and read them in harmony with each other. It's easy to say it's a contradiction, but it's more difficult to study the Scriptures to learn how they are in perfect agreement with each other. Before we were saved it was impossible that we could stop sinning and obey Christ, and yet we could walk down the street and turn our head away from lust, from murder, from stealing and from lying, etc. That didn't mean that we were not still a slave to Satan and in an impossible extraction from bondage to sin.

    God told you and me to be perfect and never sin. Surely you're not going to tell me you are perfect and never sin (EXCEPT In Christ Jesus). Why did God tell us to do something we cannot do? Because That is what God desires for us--that we are perfect, that we are holy, that we are honest and righteous. That is the ideal, that is what we should always strive to be--the best person that we can be. God told Adam and Eve to obey or die Knowing full well ahead of time That they wouldn't be obedient and obey and would die. So why Did God set up an impossible scenario to play out. Do you think God has to answer to you or to me for what He commands or desires of us? Yes, Adam could have not eaten of the tree, but he was always going to do so unless God intervened, and so there was no possibility that He would obey. And God, being omniscient, knew that from the beginning. The beginning when He had already made plans for the redemption of man "before" man ever sinned. It's not for us to point a finger at God and question him like He was a suspect of doing something untoward. This principle also clearly delineated in Romans chapter 9. Who are we to question what or why God does things? It's not about my will or what I think, it's about God's will and purpose and His thoughts rather than mine.

    Romans 9:17-23

    Your objection is basically the same objection here. Why would God find fault when it was impossible for man to obey? Why would God find fault when it is impossible to do His will and God will choose whoever he wants?  Sure, we can piously ask these pointed questions and in our vanity think ourselves clever, but God has His reasons for everything and he is under no obligation to explain His will and purpose to you or I or anyone else. By His sovereign good grace, He usually does, but He's not required to answer to man on the what and why He does things. Man is required to "faithfully" serve and obey Him, not the other way around.


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    I don't believe man can't be called,
    <<<

    Man can and often is called, but he also has to be chosen. If you believe the word of God, it's not man's will, it's God's purpose and will that triumphs. We are not to be prideful, because God is not obligated to save any one of us, man. woman or child. We are saved by His "unmerited" favor (Grace), Not because we were more logical, righteous or faithful than the next fellow. It was by God's sovereign good graces. It couldn't be any other way. The very fact that all men aren't called, or all men aren't chosen, proves that it's not about what man wants, but the sovereign will of God.

    John 6:44

    Which necessarily means, it's impossible for the wicked to come to Christ "unless" God draws (original drags) Him. And the very "fact" that God does not draw everyone pretty much puts to rest the theory of anyone can come. Christ Himself said it was impossible for anyone to come to Him except God do the work to draw them. So much for why God would ask man to do what He couldn't do--like come to Christ.


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     He was incorruptible because He was man created from he flesh of Mary and the Spirit from God. Have you never heard of Mary being of child by the Holy Ghost and not her betroved Joseph? Or are you deliberately being slow on the uptake?

    These are your words, just like your preaching that no man has ever overcome temptation but the Christ.
    <<<

    This would fall into the category of "Straw Man." Those aren't his words. He never said that. I went back and read the post again. Of course, we can overcome temptations. We do it every day. Most unsaved people who don't even want anything to do with God do it every day. What we can't overcome is sin. And that is what he said. You may have unknowingly misrepresented him. If we could overcome sin we wouldn't need a Saviour. Why do we think God says that we were slaves to sin before we are "set free" by Him? It is because we were owned by Satan and could not overcome sin on our own. We needed Christ to set us free from that house of bondage, just as Israel was set free from bondage in Egypt. Yes, it was "impossible" that we could set ourselves free, and so yes, it was impossible not to sin.

    Hebrews 2:14-15

    Again we read that God was made partaker of flesh and blood just like the children so that through death He could destroy the Devil. There is no mere man that could destroy the Devil in any fashion, such an act would take a God/Man, and that is what Christ was and did.

    Revelation 20:1-4

    That Messenger that came down from Heaven to bind the Devil was Christ, the Messenger of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1). Not a mere man to overcome the Devil, but Christ Jesus the Son of God. As indeed He explained in His parable concerning this, and how He did it by the power of God delivering the Kingdom for the saints to reign in. After they were freed from the bondage house of Satan by His death.

    Matthew 12:28-29

    Clearly, Christ is the one who entered the strong man's house to spoil (take by conquest) those he held prisoner. The Devil is the strong man (Jeremiah 31:10-11; Isaiah 49:24-25)


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     God's Word said He "learned obedience", your words say He was "born obedient". No offence, but I'll stick with the giver of truth.
    <<<

    He learned obedience as a man in the flesh who because of the flesh He could sin, and yet He never sinned. That's the point. It was important for Him to take on Himself the nature of man so that he could be tried/tempted/tested.  He didn't learn obedience as God, because He was always obedient perfect, without sin. He learned obedience as in the flesh tempted with man's nature, and yet with all that temptation, He never sinned once. That's how He learned

    Hebrews 5:8

    He learned obedience as a man who was tempted and suffered in the flesh. He never once succumbed to these trials and temptations of the flesh as a man would, rather He mastered obedience in His temptations without sinning once. You've missed the point of Him taking on the form of a man and of being able to overcome the nature of man in the flesh "because" He was more than a man. He was God with us. He Never knew obedience because He was never in the form of man, with the nature of man, and being in this position He experienced the knowledge of obedience, He mastered it "for" Man.


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    Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    He's not a new being, Christ had glory with God before he became man, and he is still that same person. The three persons of the Godhead cannot be separated. If that verse sounds like Christ was just a man like everyone else to you, while he says he had been with God since the world began, then there is no use of anyone attempting to discuss words with you because you show yourself incapable of rational discussion.

    Yes, God raised Him up from the dead,
    <<<

    And because He very precisely, plainly, clearly, distinctly, unambiguously, incontrovertibly, said that "I will Raise it up," then by any lucid idiom, definition, interpretation, locution, or terminology, "He" was saying that He was the God that would raise His body up. To Deny that is to Deny the Words Christ spoke. Jesus Christ is the God that you admit raised Him up. He Himself admitted it.

    Colossians 2:9b

    Is the word of God true and trustworthy, or is it untrue that in Christ dwelled all the fullness of the Godhead bodily? Is God a man that He should lie? He couldn't and wouldn't declare this great truth except it was true. In Christ dwells all the fulness of God physically. In His body. Even as the Apostle Paul denied that Christ was merely a man (Galatians 1:1), but was in union, one with the father. Yes, God raised Him up from the dead because Jesus Christ was God.


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    When He considered Himself equal with God, what form was He in? The Form of God, or the Form of man?
    <<<

    How many times are you going to ask this question? Flesh and blood cannot inherit or inhabit heaven, God the father is a Glorious Spirit being who Moses couldn't even look at without being consumed. He has three personages so that we can have communion with Him. The Son and the Spirit. No coincidence that God, as a Spirit, impregnated Mary to form the God/Man. This is written so clearly in Scripture and yet you seem to feign having a hard time understanding how a woman impregnated by God cannot be Special but just another mere man. You know as well as I do that it's not really that complicated. If an Egyptian impregnated a Sweedish woman, the child would be Egyptian and Sweedish, correct? So please don't feign that you can't understand the concept of God being the Father of Christ and Mary the mother as if that "fact" were insignificant. Mary was "of child" by the Holy Spirit and nothing God does or says is by coincidence.

    Matthew 1:18

    No mere man, a God/Maan by a union of procreation of mankind and God's Spirit.



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    When He humbled Himself to the Father in obedience, what form was He in, the Form of God, or the Form of man.
    <<<

    Why are you pressing this as if there is something illogical about what we are saying? God was in His Spirit being form in heaven and decided to take on Himself the form of a man on earth. He did that, and the result was Christ, the Son of God being born. HE to on the form of man. Who did? He did, God came to earth in the form of a man. Where is the mystery?

    John 1:14

    How is He just a mere man when He is by the word of God clearly the only begotten of the Father. The [monogenes] or "Sole Born" Son of God is not common man, He's decidedly uncommon, Unique and extraordinary. He possesses the power of God, Before Abraham was, He was, He had the power to forgive sins that Only God could have. Again, where is the mystery?


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    I didn't think the question was that difficult really,
    <<<

    It's not. But you "seem" to be moving mountains in order to make it "appear" overly complicated.


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    unless a person doesn't believe the Christ came to earth as a man.
    <<<

    Another obvious "Straw Man" since you well know that we all believe Christ came to earth as a unique man, with the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So that comment is straw-man innuendo or spurious.

    1st Timothy 2:5

    The Only Begotten Son of God, not a mere man who could never be a mediator between God and us. The whole idea is ridiculous.

    Isaiah 59:15-16

    The lesson here is the same everywhere else, that God Himself is the Saviour, because no mere man could be. His own arm (Christ) Brings Salvation.


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      A mere man by any reasonable definition doesn't come to earth from heaven as a man after being in the form of God.

    What are you even talking about? Who has ever said Jesus was Flesh and Blood when He came down from heaven? It's really simple. He was God, He became a man, was crucified according to the Scriptures, and God raised Him from the dead
    <<<

    Again "Straw Man!"  He didn't accuse you of saying Jesus was Flesh and Blood when He came down from heaven. You've misunderstood him. He was addressing your fallacy that God taking on the form of a man meant He was no longer God but a mere man. Read His quote again, which I must say I agree with. A mere man (by any reasonable definition) doesn't come to earth from heaven in the form of a man, after being in the form of God in heaven. You Said God took on the form of a man, meaning he was just a man and no longer God in the form of Christ. He was correcting your fallacy that this man was not God. That's what he was talking about. Your seeming inability to comprehend when you are attacking a straw man, or refuting a point that no one here had made. Your comments cannot stand the scrutiny of Scripture because you are rejecting that Christ specifically said He (Christ) would be the one who raised His body up in 3 days. You can't deny Christ said that (Luke 21:15) and so you're addressing a Straw Man.

    Matthew 1:22-23

    A Virgin, never having been with a man, is impregnated or made pregnant by God, which obviously makes the child a God/Man since the birth was miraculously from both God and mankind. By any rational way of reading the text and understanding Physiology, this is a product of both mankind and God the Holy Spirit. Yet you want us to believe that is not true, it's just a mere man possessing no power of God to deliver from sin?


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     That is why I trust Him and His Word's over the Popes, or other religious men from the religions of the land.
    <<<

    I fail to see what the Pope, other religions have to do with the unadulterated Scriptures that I and others have posted. A red herring one can only suppose.



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    I know many don't really believe God came to earth in the Flesh. You have made this abundantly clear.
    <<<

    A strange interjection or another "Straw Man!" The only one injecting the Pope, the Catholic church, church traditions and religions in this discussion thread is you. Most (not all) everyone else is presenting Scripture to address the doctrines you are espousing, not church writings, council proclamations, Papal decisions, etc.  You're the only one bringing in "extrabiblical" arguments. We are presenting Scriptures for your consideration.

    Actually, the truth (in case you're actually interested in it) is that most all Christians believe that God came to earth in the flesh. It's a fundamental Christian doctrine. And I think we, many have made "that" abundantly clear. But you seem to refuse to read what anyone writes or actually address what it clearly says. Namely, Yes, "Christ" did come in the flesh, which necessarily means it was Christ come from heaven, not an empty shell of a man without the eternal Christ Personally there. And if He was there, in the flesh, then that Man was God in the flesh by any reasonable and Biblical conclusion.

    John 8:58

    Oh yes, God was speaking there as the Man Christ. Proving once again, He was not a mere man, but God with us.


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    I have ignored nothing. You say you believe He came in the flesh, then in the same sentence, you preach He really didn't come in the Flesh.
    <<<

    I never heard that, show me the quote? Else it's another Straw Man. Actually He never preached that. That is a blatantly false accusation. We all have said countless times that God came in the flesh as a man.

    Romans 5:15

    We never deny Scripture, it's what this forum is founded upon. We have in no way preached that He really didn't come in the flesh as a man. You can't find such a quote.



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    Can God not create man from dirt, can He not create man from a woman's seed? You are missing the point.
    <<<

    No, actually I think that you are missing the point. Christ was not born by the snap of God's proverbial fingers, Scripture is clear God was the father. That's specifically why He is called the Son of God and the first and ONLY begotten or sole born Son of God. That's why He is called the second Adam, because the First Adam was of the earth only, while the second Adam (which is Christ), is of the Spirit. Selah.

    Colossians 15:45

    God (not Tony) is clearly saying that there is a difference. QED, Christ was not just a mere man as you suppose, He was the living God born of the Spirit of God.


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    I have never implied or even suggested God's Word contradicts itself. The Bible is perfectly clear, the Christ came to earth as a man. All scriptures agree with this.
    <<<

    Please "listen" to yourself. You say that the Bible is perfectly clear the Christ came to earth as a man. I agree. We all agree. But if Christ actually came to earth as a man, then He is still the God Christ, on earth as a man. else He didn't really come to earth as a man. Your whole point (it seems to me) has been that Jesus was Not God on earth and had no power as God. If that is true, then who has come to earth in the form of a man. Someone impersonating the Creator God? I'm just trying to be logical here.

    Now you can re-word it and claim Christ sent a man in His likeness, but you can't say "HE" (the Creator Christ) came to earth as a man Because that would necessarily mean creator God was on earth as this man. And that is a point which you have been denying all through this thread. Surely you can see the contradiction in that? He either came to earth in the form of a man or He didn't and Christ was just a man.  Unless there is a different Christ in heaven that is not the God who created the world? I'm sorry if you feel sat upon, but I'm not going to agree with something that is illogical, irrational or more important unBiblical. None of this makes sense when you put it all together and try to harmonize it with the whole Bible

    John 1:10-12

    He was in the world, the creator Christ here as a man, and yet the world could not recognize him. Much as today. Christ is not an abstract, He is the very person of God. He never ceased to be God when He walked the earth teaching and preaching, and He spoke in a way that confirms that all throughout Scripture.


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    And for Thomas, Jesus had just been crucified and died. He was then raised from the dead. He had just walked into a room where all the doors were locked. Thomas knew He was a man but was having difficulty with the being raised from the dead part.
    <<<

    Surely you are not implying that Thomas was mistaken? The Holy Bible is inspired by God, every word, not Thomas. Surely you're not saying that Jesus, standing there in the flesh as a man, was not God and that Thomas was confused by circumstances? I surely hope not. This was the same Jesus who was put in the grave dead, and was now Risen from the grave. It's not a new Jesus, it's the God/Man Jesus having not yet ascended to heaven--that is to say, still in the flesh. Why is this not actually saying "exactly" what it says, or why is it not meaning exactly what Thomas proclaimed by inspiration of the Holy Ghose. That Jesus was His Lord and God. It would be disappointing to find Thomas's word twisted or argued that they don't really mean what they say, or these words weren't inspired by God.


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    The First human to humble Himself to God from the age of accountability to His death.

    There is no age of accountability, you introduced that falsehood into scripture. The Bible doesn't say one word about a age when people are accountable for their sins. It's just not there. Man goes astray as a wicked sinner as soon as he is born, and the wages of sin is death. It's not only death after you reach the age of 9 or 12.  A study man would know that.

    Again, this is your personal religion.
    <<<

    This is not a personal opinion, a personal religion or a personal interpretation, it is Biblically factual. You cannot argue a doctrine from silence. The Bible says not one single word about any "Age of Accountability." Not one single word! God has never taught in any way, shape or form that any child is without sin (righteous) and thus unaccountable for his sins. You talk about personal religion, that is your Personal Religion, not something that Christ or anyone else in the history of writing the word of God penned. That is a "Biblical" fact, not a personal opinion. Moreover, declaring anyone unaccountable for sin because of age is the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches. God destroyed men, women and children throughout Scripture with not one mention that the children were without sin.

    Romans 3:23

    There are no exceptions to either those who have sinned or those held accountable by God for their sins. Christ either paid for our sins, unmerited by anything (including age), or He didn't. That is the only biblical position, which is a doctrine of grace. God doesn't share the popular "church" opinion that a child's sins are not to be accountable because of their age.

    Proverbs 20:11

    If all children were innocent or pure, this scripture becomes meaningless.

    Psalms 51:5-7

    This is the only way that a child can be sinless, the only way a child can be blameless, the only way a child can be held unaccountable, and it has absolutely nothing to do with age and everything to do with grace. Personal religion notwithstanding. In Sodom and Gomorrah, He didn't spare the children because they were not accountable. They were accountable as unrighteous as any other. In fact, if you study your Bible, you will plainly see that God told us this plainly when He said of Sodom and Gomorrah that if there were even 10 in the city righteous He would not destroy it. He made that oath, and He did destroy that city because though there were many children, there weren't 10 righteous there. They were all held accountable in His wrath against them except Lot and His own that were saved by grace.

    Genesis 18:32

    The myth of an age of accountability flies in the face of God's word that He looked upon mankind and there was none righteous, none profitable, None that doeth good, no, not one! Along comes man and says, "Oh but children are innocent and God doesn't charge sin to them until a certain age." That's pure humanism, not anything the word of God teaches. It teaches we are all like baby snakes whose teeth should be broken out, from the child to the elderly. And without the sovereign grace of God, indeed we all would be doomed. Sodom burned and all within her were accountable to the wrath of God for their sins. All but those few saved by Grace.


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        You can believe what you want, but that's not what the word of God says. It says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. It says Christ is God with us. It says beside God there is no Savior It says Christ created the world. It says God created the world. It says Christ was in the form of God and humbled himself to take on the form of man. Christ says before Abraham was, I Am. Christ says he was there in glory with the father before the world was. Christ said I will raise this body in three days, etc. How many ways does he have to say it? God's faithful Thomas didn't say "My Christ and my man," He said "My Lord and my God." And he meant it.

    Yes, Jesus the man did say these things. He also said His Father was greater than all.
    <<<

    Yes, Christ did say all those things? That's your reply to Scripture showing He spoke as God? Did He mean those things He said? Was He lying when He said that He would do it or when He said before Abraham was, I AM?

    Exodus 3:14

    Are you implying this was all a gigantic coincidence, and Christ wasn't speaking as God who saw Abraham before He was even born? Because He is the great I AM? The Bible is a book like none other, with perfect harmony, a perfect agreement, a perfect symmetry because every word is divinely inspired. Which means Christ was not playing word games, He was not exaggerating? Yes you are correct, Christ would say His Father was greater than all, because He came as the humble suffering servant who would for us suffer the wrath of God. In order to suffer the wrath of God for man, He had to not only be man to satisfy the law of God, He had to be God in order to come through it and not be consumed. You talk as if His suffering was all about the Physical, but Christ suffered much more from the hand of God than the hand of man. It was for this reason that He was born. He was God come not to Glory in being the father God, but to be humbled, abased, scorned and rejected of men, and to be smitten of God, and to suffer the wrath of God in death, yet without sin that He might be risen cleansed from our sins. That's the whole point of Him calling on His Father also asking "why He had forsaken Him." To fulfill Scripture and illustrate that He was not there in the office of God the Father, but God the Son, in order to redeem man. You should (all should) re-read Isaiah 53 slowly and carefully, because in it you will see why Christ had to be a God-man, had to be smitten of God and man, had to suffer death in the flesh at the hands of God and man.  How could He have endured all this and be risen up afterward is only "because" He was God come to earth specifically for that purpose. Not just a man. No man can be smitten by God for the sins of the whole world and live. Only a God-Man could. That's why God of His own arm brought Salvation according to His own sovereign good will and purpose. Consider thoroughly and circumspectly:

    Isaiah 53:1-12

    God the father smote Christ the Son because He was laden with our sins, and "THUS" the warth of God was upon Him. Christ didn't pay for anything by being beaten and despised of men, He paid for our sins by being beaten of God, stricken and suffering God's wages of sin (Death), not man's. Even after reading the four gospels concerning Christ, I don't see how any Christian can with a straight face claim, "He was not God in the flesh and God the Father didn't forsake Him because He was laden with our sins." Lots of men were crucified, lots suffered in the flesh from man much worse. But NO ONE, No MAN ever suffered being smitten of God in His wrath, and lived to tell the truth of it. Only a God/Man could accomplish such a task as Salvation. For beside God, there is no Saviour.

    "nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 06, 2019, 06:53:06 AM
    Thank you again for your heart felt response.
    I believe in giving all people a fair and impartial hearing, just as I would them to do to me~Matthew 7:12.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    You have built an entire doctrine around the teaching that Jesus had two natures, something which has never been mentioned in the Bible.
    Seen? It is both seen and clearly taught. Cp. John 1:1 with 1:14; 1st Timothy 3:16, etc~ there is it clearly taught; and in John 1:47-49, it is BOTH seen and taught! Many other such scriptures could be provided, yet they are there for "you" to consider, if only you would.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    If I understand you correctly you are preaching That He was a man in appearance until He got tempted, then He kicked in His God nature to resist sin. My problem with this is the lack of scriptures to support it, and the volumes of scriptures which teach against it.
    Not even close...he was 100% man, 100% God in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.  He was NEVER tempted as God, (for God CAN be tempted, neither tempt he any man!!) and neither did he overcome sin as God, but as the MAN Christ Jesus, the Son OF GOD! The mystery of Godliness is that God who is a Spirit had a fleshly Son named JESUS, who did NOT come through the generation of the first Adam but was conceived by the power of the Highest so that that holy child that was in Mary's womb was the Son of God. He was called Emmanuel, which meant GOD WITH US. Emmanuel WAS NOT conceived, but Jesus the Son of God. You not will accept this truth~WHY? pray to tell me.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    It is true "this temple" was His Human self. And this temple was most assuredly destroyed. He did indeed die, as all humans do. And for 3 days and 3 nights this man Jesus was dead. And would still be dead if not for God the Father which raised Him from the dead as this same Father raised Lazarus from the dead. And the Body which the Christ now exists in, is not the Flesh and Blood Body that was destroyed. He is no longer the human He came to earth as, but a Spiritual Body able to walk through closed doors and ascend to and from heaven. He lived in the flesh for a time, died, and was resurrected. Is this not my Hope for myself as well?
    We FULLY agree that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead~that's taught clearly in the scriptures~and yes he now has a glorified body able to APPEAR from one place to another at the very thought of desiring to be there! It is much more than just walking through closed doors! All this we see and agree with.  But this does not mean that he was not BOTH man and God in one body. You are presenting only half-truth while denying a cardinal truth of Christianity, that's the deity of Jesus Christ.

    Question for you~Will you see God one day according to Matthew 5:8? Who then will you see? Is Jesus Christ the true God according to John's testimony in 1st John 1:1,2; 5:20; Do you embrace the blessed hope of the faithful?  That they shall see the appearing of the GREAT GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ? Or, do you look for another? Pray to tell me.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    Does your understanding of John 2 make all these scriptures void? The Apostles, They were with Him, shall I not listen to them?
    Sir, I accept those scriptures as I do just as Ezra and Nehemiah taught us in Nehemiah 8:8 as I quoted above understanding that the Godhead is ONE, yet revealed to us as THREE according to each respective work in the salvation of God's elect. 

    So, I understand perfectly all scriptures you quoted before this question and after this question in their proper sense according to the Godhead each respective work, and as we said above, what could be said of one (as far as their Godhead) could be equally said of each!
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    Listen to your statement here; "ONLY his humanity grew in wisdom, NOT his Divinity! You just cannot accept that he was BOTH man and God."

    Only His humanity grew in wisdom? Where in all the Word of God did you find that quote? Where is any Biblical support for this statement. Who is teaching you these things? It's not in the Word of God.
    Quote from: The Holy Ghost
    Luke 2:49-52~"And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
    At twelve years old he KNEW that God was his Father and understood his purpose of being here! That was his Divinity speaking as it was when he was when he was speaking to the doctors of the Jews! At twelve years old as the man JESUS, he still had to LEARN WISDOM as far as his humanity goes! It is a matter of rightly dividing the word of God reading it distinctly and giving to the scriptures their proper sense~lying aside our bias against them. You asked:
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 05:58:18 PM
    How can we walk as He walked if He was God and over came sin by accessing powers no other human has ever had.
    First of all~he condemned sin in the flesh BY HIS PERFECT OBEDIENCE and faith~THAT OBEDIENCE and FAITH has been freely put to our account as though we did it, and is the very means of our free justification according to Galatians 2:16, and the very life of faith we now live we do so by the FAITH OF CHRIST that has been freely given to us by grace.
    Quote from: Paul
    Galatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
    The very life of faith I now live by was freely given to me on the behalf of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law of God perfectly for me in the body of his flesh.  Enough said for now.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lower on January 06, 2019, 07:41:34 AM
    Answering the question: when was He in the form of God?

    The best example to show you what has been hidden to you in the scripture you brought here to discuss. It always was there; the very reason Trevor told you that the language of the word of God is clear.

    Read it:

    Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Read it again:

    Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was (past) also in Christ Jesus: (notice this is putting forth the life of Jesus from birth as an example - was serves as cross-reference to time before He went back to His heaven))
    Php 2:6  Who (that was/when He was in the world as the light of the world), being (present participle) in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    God came in the flesh does not mean He ceased being God; the Word of God tells us clearly that God humbled himself taking upon Himself the form of a servant (becoming a Man - God in the flesh). Everlasting God never stopped being God, because God is immutable. He was indeed in the form of God when He was walking and talking in the world as the light of the world!

    But only those whom the the Spirit of the Father reveals to will know that He is the Son of the Living God.

    Luk 10:21  In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
    Luk 10:22  All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
    Luk 10:23  And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

    Knowing God is fundamental issue in Christianity, and it is by the grace of God (Luk 10:22). Some have no knowledge of God (1Co 15:34). The very reason God has sent warning that the elect must not believe every spirit that said God, God. Always be watching not to be deceived by false ones who deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Deceivers who will preach that Jesus isn't really "God with us".

    The following verses were also brought by you lately; not knowing that they speak against your position.

    1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2Jn 1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    These in simple terms are telling us that those who confess that Jesus Christ (God) IS COME in the flesh (of the Man Jesus) are from God. But those who do not believe that Jesus Christ (God) IS COME in the flesh (of Man) are not from God, they are deceivers.

    IS COME IN the flesh is a clear grammar that tells us that when God the Father sent His Son to the world by creating the Man in the womb of Mary by His Spirit; this became His way of revealing His head to us as the Son of God --- and that God was, both, ruling the universe from heaven and walking the earth in the flesh (of a man, not any man but that special man named Jesus).

    Hence His Name, The Name of the Child, of the Son ... The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace:

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    @Studyman
    I hope because of what has so far been replied you may examine yourself (2Jn 1:8], ask God to give you repentance, He is merciful.

    Of the list of scripture that I promised to send; I will do that if necessary. I think much helpful, well composed, replies there you have to spend time reading on.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Jeff on January 06, 2019, 07:55:28 AM
    Excellent retorts Tony Warren and Lower. Makes one wonder why it is so difficult for some to understand what has been explained so thoroughly my 10 year old daughter could grasp it. Yet it escapes the stiff necked as something to be offended by.

    Acts 9:5
    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    It is hard, painful and useless.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 06, 2019, 09:13:06 AM
    Studyman

    Oh, ..., I thought you would stop disrespecting God, keep your soulish mind's imagination to yourself and not preach anything of your head. You don't seem the kind of person who could do that - but that's only because you don't believe what is written - on one hand, through avoidance of many of the scripture references people have given you. One the other hand, not seeing the truth even in the verses of scripture you yourself brought. The latter is what happened to you when you take the word of God as if it has sprung from you! I am just explaining how we see the message entailed within your posts as usual as others have also done in an attempt to help you understand your errors.

    I will send some list of scripture references (again) for your consideration. Those that we believe are against your personal thoughts and beliefs. But before that I would like to ask you keep trying be a man on the issue you have raised and stop crying like a baby after you received rebuke from us because of our position on the humanity and deity of Lord Christ Jesus on the basis of the Word of God. By now you need to understand that we (the people who responded with scripture that He the Lord did solve our problems both as Man and as God) are not children, we can never be tossed --- plus we are armed and have the ability to judge. So if it is too much for you to bear, you have every right to leave us alone and join some other forums who will be fine with you, those who will be patient to see you stay with them even though you blaspheme God.

    Mat 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
    You have offended, not just one, but many of us already. Be careful, I don't think you meant it intentionally ... but your game is dangerous. So again a reminder for you to be both responsible and accountable for your doctrines.

    [Did you notice that you also did ridicule, and put a false label on us; such as your assumption that we be like unto the people who follow a pope or those who worship images of God. I have informed you that we are Bible Discerning Christians, then why insist? But, nobody will take that seriously, we will tolerate your ideas against us. However we cannot tolerate your ideas - your position on this thread - and we will respond till you understand your errors and you stop fooling yourself]


    Here is a summary of your errors:

    - twisting, manipulating the words and changing their meaning (causing confusion, making the truth difficult to be understood)
    - denial of the doctrine of TRINITY
    - denying the deity of the Holy Spirit (you don't believe that He is the God)
    - denying the role of the deity "of" Christ Jesus in salvation (i.e. together with the role of the deity "in" Christ - this you believe) [I hate to see how you complicate things to confuse people]
    - your rejection of the doctrine that the Man Jesus was born "without sin", He was perfect because He came from and out of Heaven/Father.
    - your ignorance of equating Jesus with corruptible humans. You deny that God "sanctified" His Son before He sent Him to the world and thus He was born with the ability to withstand sin and also was a man that couldn't sin. (This is offensive to you but that's the truth)
    - introducing heretic doctrine of yours: the age of accountability
    - You said you believe God came in the flesh; yet you deny God came in the flesh. You believe Jesus came in the flesh; yet, you deny that that means "God with us" (God incarnate).
    - avoidance of the truth that Jesus (only Jesus) was one with the Father "in terms of power and authority" for example in: 1) saving sinners 2) to keep the sheep from loss and 3) to give eternal life. (This is what we meant by Jesus and the Father are one. Apart from this another type of 'oneness' is taught in John 17 - described as the oneness of the elect with Jesus and with the Father - but I noticed you made riddles out of that like you did with every other scripture brought to you, nothing but to satisfy your curiosity without end of mocking God. The teaching of the word of God in that chapter is that of Christ's honest request to the Father that His will be done where, they the elect [for whom He shed His blood] be found and be translated into the Kingdom of Heaven that they be "one" with Him in the sense that they are no more of this world but are now from "heaven". But this truth is hidden from you because you are prepared to rob Jesus of His glory.)
    - you contradict yourself when you talked about the creation of Adam and his condition before he sinned before the fall. You seemed to me like a follower of Arminianism or who goes after works-based righteousness when it comes to the discussion you gave about the condition of children of Adam (after the fall, i.e., men in this world). The worst of all is your argument that all men (by that you meant including Jesus, silly!) are born imperfect and should learn to withstand sin, obedience through suffering, when the age of accountability comes by the power of God. Bla bla and blas ... Your knowledge of Jesus is flawed, your view of fallen humanity is corrupt.

    These are my way of presenting your views from the posts you made. You can write back if I have made mistake of putting your idea. But I want to know if you agree with this list as the important points of disagreement (your errors viewed from my side), so we can carry on discussion knowing exactly our differences are. If not it is waste of time ... even for you.

    There is a proverb they say in my country: "if three people tell your head is absent, raise your hand and check it." By mentioning that what I meant to say is you need to consider the advice given from many people, use that for your own sake if you will, examine yourself whether or not you are in line with God's truth.

    Did it occur to you that you might have erred at least once when you replied to each post and every variable from all people? Are you infallible? And with almost the same and similar answer to all questions? How come?

    I understand your religion perfectly. I have just decided to place my trust in all the Word's of God. You say He came to earth as God. But His Word, Him, the Prophets of old, all say He came to earth as a man. You are free to promote whatever religion you please and I am free to post the volumes of scriptures in which I place my trust. His Word's say over and over that as the man Jesus, He received ALL His Power from God the Father. Who He came to Glorify, who HE trusted, who He relied on, whose Word's He taught, whose doctrines he brought, were not His own. I believe Him. Listening to and trusting Him has always been very unpopular in the religions of the land. I have no reason to expect anything different now.

    Had Eve listened to God instead of the other voice she would not have betrayed her husband. If Caleb had listened to the "Congregation of the Lord" instead of trusting in the Word's of his God, he would have fallen in the wilderness just as they did.

    If Abraham had not left the religion of his family, denied himself, taken up his cross and followed the Christ, where would we be today.

    If the Kings of Israel had listened to the Prophets God sent to them to expose their doctrines which did not come from Him, instead of killing them, they would not have lost favor with God.

    If Jesus had been influenced by the ancient religious traditions of the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time, He would have failed His mission.

    These are Word's the Christ had written for my admonition. I will not disrespect Him by ignoring them.

    I posted His Words, and posed questions. For me it's not about ancient religious traditions or doctrines of this religious franchise or that, it's about what the Word's of God teach. ALL of them.




    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Melanie on January 06, 2019, 09:49:25 AM
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    >>>
     He was incorruptible because He was man created from he flesh of Mary and the Spirit from God. Have you never heard of Mary being of child by the Holy Ghost and not her betroved Joseph? Or are you deliberately being slow on the uptake?

    These are your words, just like your preaching that no man has ever overcome temptation but the Christ.
    <<<

    This would fall into the category of "Straw Man." Those aren't his words. He never said that. I went back and read the post again. Of course, we can overcome temptations. We do it every day. Most unsaved people who don't even want anything to do with God do it every day. What we can't overcome is sin. And that is what he said. You may have unknowingly misrepresented him. If we could overcome sin we wouldn't need a Saviour. Why do we think God says that we were slaves to sin before we are "set free" by Him? It is because we were owned by Satan and could not overcome sin on our own. We needed Christ to set us free from that house of bondage, just as Israel was set free from bondage in Egypt. Yes, it was "impossible" that we could set ourselves free, and so yes, it was impossible not to sin.

    Hebrews 2:14-15
    • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."


    Excellent retort Tony. The Bible is very clear that we were not free, we were in bondage to sin making it impossible for us to come to Christ. Christ had to bind satan first and then set us free. This is not something that is debatable, Christ said this plainly.


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     God's Word said He "learned obedience", your words say He was "born obedient". No offence, but I'll stick with the giver of truth.
    <<<

    He learned obedience as a man in the flesh who because of the flesh He could sin, and yet He never sinned. That's the point. It was important for Him to take on Himself the nature of man so that he could be tried/tempted/tested.  He didn't learn obedience as God, because He was always obedient perfect, without sin. He learned obedience as in the flesh tempted with man's nature, and yet with all that temptation, He never sinned once.

     )amen( To think that Christ sinned is heresy. The entire bible is all about how Christ never sinned.  Study man is attempting to have the statement that Christ learned obedience to mean he wasn't obedient until he learned how to be. That's not consistent with the whole Bible. Because that would make the statement that He never sinned a false statement.


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    He learned obedience as a man who was tempted and suffered in the flesh. He never once succumbed to these trials and temptations of the flesh as a man would, rather He mastered obedience in His temptations without sinning once. You've missed the point of Him taking on the form of a man and of being able to overcome the nature of man in the flesh "because" He was more than a man. He was God with us.

     &TY And because he overcame the trials and tribulations as a man, and because he overcame sin being obedient unto death, we being in communion with Him overcome in Him.

    "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John16:33"


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    He Never knew obedience because He was never in the form of man, with the nature of man, and being in this position He experienced the knowledge of obedience, He mastered it "for" Man.

    Exactly, why would him being in the form of God have to know obedience. He learned it as a man and God the father was satisfied with its conclusion of not sinning once..


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    >>>
    Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    He's not a new being, Christ had glory with God before he became man, and he is still that same person. The three persons of the Godhead cannot be separated. If that verse sounds like Christ was just a man like everyone else to you, while he says he had been with God since the world began, then there is no use of anyone attempting to discuss words with you because you show yourself incapable of rational discussion.

     )God-Bless-You(  )Goodpoint(


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    unless a person doesn't believe the Christ came to earth as a man.
    <<<

    Another obvious "Straw Man" since you well know that we all believe Christ came to earth as a unique man, with the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So that comment is straw-man innuendo or spurious.

    No one has ever denied that. Who is he arguing has denied that? It seems to me it is he who is arguing that Christ did not come to earth, just a man did. Because he has removed God completely from the man Christ. So how could Christ have come to earth as a man if he's not within the man?

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    What are you even talking about? Who has ever said Jesus was Flesh and Blood when He came down from heaven? It's really simple. He was God, He became a man, was crucified according to the Scriptures, and God raised Him from the dead
    <<<[/size][/color]

    That makes no sense Studyman. If he was God, and became a man, then he was God as a man. Or else he was just a man, not God who took the form of a man. Your doctrine is very convoluted and perplexing.


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     That is why I trust Him and His Word's over the Popes, or other religious men from the religions of the land.
    <<<

    I fail to see what the Pope, other religions have to do with the unadulterated Scriptures that I and others have posted. A red herring one can only suppose.

    Yes Studyman, what has the Pope got to do with the Scriptures that the Christians here have presented to you? Perhaps that is why you cannot follow scripture. You can't seem to stay focused on the scriptures given you but go off on a tangent about a Religion that no one here but a Roman Catholic would support. They're dealing with scripture here, not tradition.


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    John 8:58
    • "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

    Oh yes, God was speaking there as the Man Christ. Proving once again, He was not a mere man, but God with us.

     )inter(  Studyman, Christ is not speaking as a man is he? He is speaking as God. Why, if he was not God and just a man? Again as so many times before he says I, indicating he is the God that was before Abraham. Why do you keep denying all these truths that are so unambiguously written in the word of God. This Christ was before Abraham was.

    Thank you Tony Warren for such plain and easy to understand retorts to a doctrine that tears at the core of Christianity.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Melanie on January 06, 2019, 10:00:32 AM
    Studyman
    Did it occur to you that you might have erred at least once when you replied to each post and every variable from all people? Are you infallible? And with almost the same and similar answer to all questions? How come?

    I understand your religion perfectly.

    Perfectly huh? I guess that answers his question of your infallibility. You understand his religion before even hearing him present to you the scriptures. That answers a lot.

    "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13"

    Good thing the Bereans didn't have your attitude about scriptures presented to them by Paul that contradicted what they had learned in their religion  :o

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lieberman on January 06, 2019, 12:04:36 PM
    Good thing the Bereans didn't have your attitude about scriptures presented to them by Paul that contradicted what they had learned in their religion  :o

    Yeah, Tony Warren always brings up good points with good scriptures. I don't think Studyman has ever had any inclination to really discuss and consider these scriptures, only to teach his religion. Whatever it is. But it looks like no one is deceived yet. Still I am curious if there is anyone here, anyone at all, who thinks his arguments have any real biblical merit?

     )anyone(  Just curious!
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 06, 2019, 12:56:25 PM
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    author=Tony Warren link=topic=3414.msg40953#msg40953 date=1546758412]
     author=Studyman link=topic=3414.msg40943#msg40943 date=1546629935]
    =blue]>>>
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [/color]
    But this verse says He became something different.
    <<<


    As others have noted before, here again, you seem to be attempting to manipulate what is "actually" stated. I'm sure you know that the Scripture doesn't say that God became something different, it "literally" says that "God took the form of a Servant." That's quite different from the portrait that you attempt to paint of Him becoming something different other than God. He didn't cease to be God when He took the form of man, He was still God the creator. The only God appeared in form as a man. But don't take my word for it, this also evidenced by His own words that it was "HE" (Jesus Christ) that would raise his body up from the dead. A fact you have chosen to gloss over as if it is insignificant. However, you rightly say it was God who raised Him up, that also proving that Christ was God. The Word of God clearly contradicts any idea that Christ was not God in the flesh and that He would raise up His body.

    John 2:19
    • "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    Some might feel better if it were written differently, but Christ didn't say "My God will raise it up," He said He (Jesus Christ) would raise it up when they destroyed it. He was unambiguously still speaking "as God" because He was God. Yet humbled in the form of a man in order to suffer and redeem man. It's not rocket science, it's clearly what is written.

    I glossed over nothing Tony. I posted verse after verse of the man Jesus telling where His power came from. Telling us who He trusted. Who He glorified. Who He humbled Himself to. I also posted verse after verse of His Apostles words, those who were with Him, telling me over and over that God the Father Raised the Man Jesus from the dead. Did He give Jesus the Power? Jesus said so, the Law and Prophet's say so, His Apostles say so.

    But the religions of the land say Jesus, by His own power raised Himself from the dead. That Jesus, from His own Power resisted temptation and overcame sin. I already posted the scriptures and you have ignored them so there is no reason to post them again. Do I believe your one understanding of one scripture erases all that is written about the Word of God which became Flesh? If I had a religious tradition to defend, I might. But I don't.


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    When did the Word of God "take on Him the Form of a Servant" and when was He "made" in the likeness of Man? Was this not the virgin birth? Surely you believe the Word of God came in the Flesh. When did this happen? I believe it happened when Mary conceived and had a son by the Power of God.
    <<<


    You said it "almost" right. Almost. The question from Scripture is when did God take on Himself the form of a servant. Not the form put on someone else, when "HE" would take on that form. You see, even in your obfuscation of this, the truth of the word of God always shines through. God didn't become a different person as you've implied, from Scripture honestly rendered, we see God clearly took on Himself the form of a servant. On Him! In other words, HE was made in the likeness of men. Not someone else, "HE/GOD" came in the form of a man. You seem to want to admit that, and yet at the same time contradict that making God just a man on earth. You are basically declaring, No he wasn't God, Jesus was just a man and not God. That cannot stand the test of Scripture.

    Yes, He "took on that form", not of the immortal angels, but of mortal man. Now you can preach it was only a show, that He really wasn't "made like unto His Brethren in ALL things" if you like. You are free to further whatever religious doctrine or tradition you like. What I am here to do is show what ALL the Scriptures teach apart from the religious doctrines of the land. I don't believe it was all a show, that God just appeared to be a man but was really immortal God. Mostly because the Scriptures say He came in the Flesh. How can God overcome sin? How can He be tempted? Yet the scriptures are clear. God "was made" in all things, a man. He lived in the womb, He was born, He was a baby who messed Himself. The Scriptures say He "Learned obedience". He suffered temptation "in all ways" as His Brethren. I don't believe He cheated. I don't believe He overcame sin by accessing to powers no other human has ever had access to. He was "born of a woman, born under the Law". How is God born under His own Law? As God He can't. But as the scriptures teach, He was "made a man". So you can believe He really didn't come in the Flesh if you like. I have no reason to deny that He "became a man" and that because He was "a faithful Son", God raised Him from that death. This is the promise of God from the very beginning is it not?

    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    Glorify who? God the Son that looked like man? Or God the Son that became a man?

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Why does God have to give Himself power? God the Father gave the Man Jesus His Power. He gave Him power to raise Lazarus, read it for yourself. Why are so invested in making sure Jesus didn't overcome anything as a man with true faith in His Father?

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Shall I also ignore the Very Word's of my Savior because religious man don't believe He really came in the flesh? Who did the Man Jesus say was the only true God? (Matt. 19:17 He says the same thing)

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    Psalms 45:6
    • "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre."

    There is no faithful construction of Scripture that can ever be devised to change the sense that this speaks of God the Son, who has given us an eternal Kingdom because He is God come in the flesh to redeem us from sin. This also confirmed by the faithful Apostle Paul speaking of the faithfulness of God as Saviour. This in the perpetuity of His kingdom, His government, and this Saviour God. Not a throne reserved for a mere man who somehow overcame sin and Satan, but for the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. Paul also confirming that this Scripture of God in Psalms 45 spoke of Jesus as God. The Apostle quotes Psalms 45 and says it speaks of Christ.

    Absolutely, David also understood that God Glorified the Man Jesus because of what He did. I'm not sure why you would omit this important part of His inspired Words.

    Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore ( Because of this) God, thy God, (God the father) hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    When did God the Son love righteousness and hate wickedness? As God, or as the Man Jesus?


    Ph. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore (Therefore, because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    If God had only come in "appearance" of a man, but retained all the Power of God, where is His Victory? How is it a Victory for God, in all His Power, to resist satan? When did Jesus "find" that He was the God of the Old Testament? At age 1, 5? Why are you guys all avoiding these questions? And when Jesus found out He was the God of the Old Testament, but in the form of a man "in all things as His Brethren", what did He do?

    the Scriptures say He "humbled Himself and "became obedient", that He "learned obedience from the things He suffered". Of course He did. Men, born under the Law, are not "born obedient" they have to humble themselves to the Word of God and learn obedience.

    Why religious men would steal this great effort and accomplishment from the perfect sacrifice, the unblemished Lamb, and teach He accomplished this feat because He cheated and accessed power no other human has ever had is astounding to me. And then teach that this same God killed thousands of people for disobeying the same laws you claim He could only follow because He wasn't really a man, but God.

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    Hebrews 1:8
    • "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

    Illustrating Thomas didn't misspeak, Jesus was His Lord and His God. The Son, Jesus Christ, was not just a man, He was God and He ascended to His throne to again take his place as the second person of the Godhead in Heaven--His salvific work having been completed. Work which you claim was of Christ a mere man who was not God.

    The Man Jesus was born, and the Man Jesus died. To deny this is to deny the Christ Himself. The Man Jesus that was Born is gone, never to return. The Risen Christ ascended into heaven. Flesh and Blood can not walk through closed doors to talk to Thomas, Flesh and Blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus the Man, as all men, are born and they die. The Jesus that bleeds no longer exists, the risen Christ, raised from the dead by God the Father and placed on the Right hand of God the Father "Where He was before He became a Man" is forever and ever. The Jesus that feared is gone, raised unto a Spiritual Body that will never fear again. The Lamb for the Slaughter has been killed, raised in His stead is the Risen Christ who won't be pushed around by those who call Him Lord, Lord, in the next go around.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

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    >>>
    When was He found in Fashion as a man?
    <<<


    In order to understand that, you would have to not only study the Scriptures, but study them with an "eye" to receive what is written within them. Not study in order to negate, contradict or manipulate them. Read the plain language and learn when God was found in the form of man.

    John 8:56-59
    • "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    • Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    • Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
    • []Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by[/i]."

    When Christ said "I AM" He was declaring plainly that He was God, and what's more, the Jews, who were also study men, knew it. That is why they took up stones to stone Him. Because they thought He was blaspheming in declaring that He was God. Little did they know (like you) that He indeed Was God. That is how Christ knew Abraham before He was even born, and how He could declare that HE was before Abraham. He was, not someone else, but this God Christ. How you can continue to feign that this means He wasn't God is just astounding. If He wasn't God, why did He say before Abraham was I AM, illustrating He was God long before Abraham was? Can you not understand what that means? Christ is the Great I Am that Told Moses to tell Pharaoh to let His people go.

    Again, in your arrogance, you think anyone who doesn't believe as you do is unlearned. I have said from the very beginning that Jesus was the creator God of the Universe who "became a man in all things as His Brethren". He created Hid Sabbath for man. He created the Law and Prophets for our admonition. He created Good, Evil, Holy, unholy, Clean, unclean. His Word's are Life  I know the Word of God which became Flesh.

    You have completely ignored why the Pharisees didn't know Jesus.

    John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Very prudent Word's for this discussion..

    Duet 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

    14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

    15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

    Does God in all His power need to "Learn" to refuse the evil and choose the good? Of course not, but a man, born of a woman, in all things like unto His Brethren, (Moses) would need to be taught right from wrong. Am I also to reject these Word's of God so I can be considered "learned" by religious man? Am I a Pharisee because I refuse to flush these Words of God down some religions toilet?

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    When did the Man Jesus know who that He was the God of Abraham in the Flesh?
    <<<


    Since He was obviously God, He was all-knowing. To ask when God knew something is not really to know God at all. Christ was not just a man, He was the God-man.


    Once again, I know your religion, I just thing I should trust in God's Word's over yours. No offence.

    Ph. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    This says Jesus "found out" who He was at some point. You might believe He knew these this as He nursed His mother, or as He was being potty trained. But I'm sticking with scriptures.

    Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

    46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

    48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

    49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

    Could this be Him "learn to reject the evil and choose the good? Was this when He learned obedience by things He suffered? I asked a valid question, "When did Jesus know He was the God of Abraham"?

    52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    Your Word's "Since He was obviously God, He was all-knowing. To ask when God knew something is not really to know God at all".

    If He was God, and not a man in all things as His Brethren, He would not need to "grow in wisdom", He would not need to "learn obedience by the things He suffered". So either God's Word is deceived and you have exalted yourself above Him, or you are deceived and God's word's are above you. I'm sticking with the Giver of Truth where the Man Jesus is concerned.



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    John 1:47-49
    • "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    • Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    • Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel."

    Yet you continually parrot the line that Christ was just a man and not God. What man do you know who has or ever had such powers? Indeed, Nathanael most certainly recognized Him as the Son of God because of His powers. That is in fact how He could say He would raise up His body after 3 days in the grave, and that is how he could as a man suffer the death of the wrath of God and "YET" come out the other side in the flesh alive. By any rational idiom, language or rationale, no mere man could accomplish such tasks. It would take a perfect uncorrupted man to be laden with the billions of sins of the world. It would take a God-Man to afterward raise Himself up having suffered God's wrath for ALL that iniquity. The only Question is--is this what the word of God says. And the only "honest" answer is absolutely!

    Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    I know how difficult it is to believe that God came in the Flesh. There are "many" who come in Christ's name who simply don't believe it for the same reason you give. Yet, as I have demonstrated, the Bible is perfectly clear that He did.

    Those who can't believe He came in the Flesh must first reject all the Christ said about where He got His Power from. They must reject David's Words, Paul's Words, Jesus' own Words, Isaiah's Words.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    What "work" did Jesus the Man Finish"? Is He Done? Where is the Flesh and Blood Jesus? Shall I simply erase all these scriptures from my mind so I can belong to your religion?

    You asked "What man" could do these things? And Jesus, whose own Word's you ignore, answers this question a hundred times in His Word.

    Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

    Heb. 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
     
    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    You are free to ignore and reject all these scriptures which confirm that Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, certainly did come in the Flesh. And He knew that if He Humbled Himself and became obedient to His Father's Words, that He would also have the power of all those who had Faith in God. So He didn't rely on Himself, but on God His Father who HE SAID gave Him power over the Flesh. Shall I not believe Him.

    Are we not to follow His Example of Faith? Is He not truly the Author and Finisher of my Faith?

    There is no need to continue on here unless you can acknowledge the Word's of God that are shown here.

    And what if I'm born into a religion, as He was, who doesn't really believe all the Word's of God? That is the question, isn't it?



    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 06, 2019, 01:17:02 PM
    Excellent retorts Tony Warren and Lower. Makes one wonder why it is so difficult for some to understand what has been explained so thoroughly my 10 year old daughter could grasp it. Yet it escapes the stiff necked as something to be offended by.

    Acts 9:5
    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    It is hard, painful and useless.

    I have never denied that the God of Abraham became Flesh, died, and was raised the Risen Christ.

    Had the Man Jesus went to Paul and preached to him, Paul would have stoned Him to death in the name of God, or held the coats of them who did. But the Flesh and Blood Jesus had already died. It wasn't this "Man of sorrows" that spoke with Paul, it was the Risen Christ in Spirit and all power.

    Your unbelief in these truths doesn't affect the validity of God's Word in the slightest.



    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Lieberman on January 06, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
    Quote
    author=Tony Warren link=topic=3414.msg40953#msg40953 date=1546758412]
    I'm sure you know that the Scripture doesn't say that God became something different, it "literally" says that "God took the form of a Servant." That's quite different from the portrait that you attempt to paint of Him becoming something different other than God. He didn't cease to be God when He took the form of man, He was still God the creator.  The Word of God clearly contradicts any idea that Christ was not God in the flesh and that He would raise up His body.

    John 2:19
    • "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    Some might feel better if it were written differently, but Christ didn't say "My God will raise it up," He said He (Jesus Christ) would raise it up when they destroyed it. He was unambiguously still speaking "as God" because He was God. Yet humbled in the form of a man in order to suffer and redeem man. It's not rocket science, it's clearly what is written.

    I glossed over nothing Tony. I posted verse after verse of the man Jesus telling where His power came from.

    You are glossing over it again. The Christ didn't say His God would raise him up, He said He would raise it up. This is why so many Christians have a problem with your type of discussion. It lacks substance because you won't address the problem with words and what they say. You change what is said to what you want to hear. Jesus raised it up, you gloss over that biblical fact and change the word to read he didn't raise him up, he was just speaking metaphorically. That's dishonest and Christians can see that.


    Quote
    Yes, He "took on that form", not of the immortal angels, but of mortal man.

    Again, more of this shell game. God took on the form of man means He was God in the form of a man. Not that he wasn't God, just man. You are teaching that God created a man apart from himself, not God in the form of man. Everyone understands that except you. Why do you think that is? Everyone is stupid and ignorant of the scriptures but you?


    Quote
    Shall I also ignore the Very Word's of my Savior because religious man don't believe He really came in the flesh?

    Those are lies. Deliberate falsehoods. You are obviously very dishonest because you have been told multiple times no one believes that. So it is plain that you are being deceitful in continuing to bear false witness. Which means I can no longer discuss this issue with you. I hope you learn honesty some day.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 06, 2019, 04:16:57 PM
    Good thing the Bereans didn't have your attitude about scriptures presented to them by Paul that contradicted what they had learned in their religion  :o

    Yeah, Tony Warren always brings up good points with good scriptures. I don't think Studyman has ever had any inclination to really discuss and consider these scriptures, only to teach his religion. Whatever it is. But it looks like no one is deceived yet. Still I am curious if there is anyone here, anyone at all, who thinks his arguments have any real biblical merit?

     )anyone(  Just curious!

    For the record, I have been having these same discussions with various religious franchises for over 30 years. I posted scriptures for your review. If biblical truth was whatever the religious majority believes, then we would all still be Catholics wouldn't we? And maybe I've stumbled into a Catholic forum. I didn't know this when I posted.

    I have posted where Jesus Himself, said over and over and over, where His Power came from. Whose Power raised Him from the dead. Both by the Law and Prophets, By His Word's, and by His Apostles Word's. The fact that no one believes them is nothing new, in fact Jesus Himself said "many" would call Him Lord, Lord but would refuse the Will of the God that He said as a man gave Him His Power.

    And what is His Will? To believe in His Son whom He sent. And what does His Son Say?

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, (Even His own) that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Why did Jesus rely on the Power he said His Father gave Him?

    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Of course He relied on His Father for all His Power. He came in the Flesh.

    Shall I reject His Word's just so I can join the religious majority ? Jesus didn't.


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 06, 2019, 06:00:17 PM

    Quote
    We FULLY agree that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead~that's taught clearly in the scriptures~and yes he now has a glorified body able to APPEAR from one place to another at the very thought of desiring to be there! It is much more than just walking through closed doors! All this we see and agree with.  But this does not mean that he was not BOTH man and God in one body. You are presenting only half-truth while denying a cardinal truth of Christianity, that's the deity of Jesus Christ.

    And yet, before He died, He could not walk through closed doors without the power of God to move Him. He would not raise Lazarus from the dead, with first praying to God His Father and asking Him. As a man He didn't do His Will. "Father, if thou will, take this cup from Me".

    Did God the Son not Lay down His Life for His People? How did God the Son offer His Life? By pretending to me a man, knowing full well He couldn't die? Is that why He sweated drops of Blood. I don't believe the Son of Man is dishonest, or deceitful Red. He said He Laid down His Life? How can God lay down His Life? One way would be to make Himself a mortal Man, in all things as His Brethren (Moses and others) To experience everything a man experiences. To become a Man in "all things" as His Brethren. And God the Son did this. He knew He was before Abraham, but He also know He was a man. Isn't that why He gave God the Father the Glory for all that He did?  Risking His immortality to become the prophesied "unblemished Lamb" that was to taken from the Flock. And He Humbled Himself to God in obedience unto death.

    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    What is the "nature of Angels"? Are they not immortal? What separates angels from the Seed of Abraham? Is it not immortality?

    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    I have no problem with the God of Abraham becoming Flesh and dwelling among men. I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh, that He was also 100% God with 100% of the Power of God and that is how He overcame. I don't agree with this because the scriptures teach against it.

    He was God as a man in all things as His Brethren. He was sent to earth as a man to become the unblemished Lamb. He suffered in this process and was "made perfect" through these sufferings. These are not my word's or the words of some famous religious person. These are the word's of the very scriptures I strive to live by. The deity of Christ is that He was God who became mortal, who risked His immortality to do the Will of His Father. And for His faith, Trust, obedience He was given, BY GOD THE FATHER, a name greater than any name. This is what the scriptures say.

    Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, (The Father) hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    "Above thy Fellows"? Who are His fellows? Other Gods? or other Men?

    Red, you are a nice man, and you are zealous for the Lord there is no doubt. And you have not resorted to insults, ridicule, or belittling and that means something to me. And I appreciate your candor and your zeal. 

    But there is a problem in the doctrine that the Christ didn't really come in the Flesh. Not because I say so, but because so many scriptures say so.

    Quote
    Question for you~Will you see God one day according to Matthew 5:8? Who then will you see? Is Jesus Christ the true God according to John's testimony in 1st John 1:1,2; 5:20; Do you embrace the blessed hope of the faithful?  That they shall see the appearing of the GREAT GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ? Or, do you look for another? Pray to tell me.

    Matt. 8:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

    This is another scripture I hadn't considered. You are preaching that Jesus was 100% God. Who is the Christ talking about here? When shall they SEE God?

    1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ the Man who His Father High Exalted because He was obedient unto death.

    5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    It is my Hope to "overcome" in this World with Faith in Jesus the Risen Christ, as He, the man, had Faith in God the Father. AS it is written.

    Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Will I see the long haired image of God created by religious man and plastered in nearly every town on the planet? Is this the Jesus that I seek? No Red, it is not. The Jesus I seek is the One who became a man, in all things as His brethren, and overcome sin by Faith in the Power of His Father, and because of this great victory, was granted a Name above all other men.

    Heb. 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7
    a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Was He immortal God in the person of Jesus? I don't believe the scriptures support this religious doctrine.







    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Frank Mortimer on January 06, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
     )help( I have no idea what that jumbled mess is posted above, and it hurts my eyes to try and sort it out. Are you talking or are you quoting someone else's words?

    Studyman,  No offense intended in this observance, but I'm sure you will be offended. If you consider and evaluate scripture the way you have considered and evaluated the quote feature (which is very childlike, sloppily and improperly) then I can understand how you can come to such warped views of the God of the Bible. You don't take the time to even understand anything, you just haphazardly send a post without even seeing it is broken. It's careless. And that's the same way you handle scripture.

    Just some constructive criticism.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Red on January 07, 2019, 06:19:25 AM
    And yet, before He died, He could not walk through closed doors without the power of God to move Him. He would not raise Lazarus from the dead, with first praying to God His Father and asking Him. As a man He didn't do His Will. "Father, if thou will, take this cup from Me".
    Studyman, you keep building this strawman and then you are fighting against him, for no one has said that as a man Jesus did his own will, of course, he did not do his own will, neither did he cause his voice to be heard in the streets, in that he never lifted himself up, but came as a lowly servant, serving, not to be served by others. Can we lay this to bed once for all?

    You said:
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    He could not walk through closed doors without the power of God to move Him.
    You might want to reconsider that statement and show a little wisdom. Have you never read these scriptures:
    Quote from: Luke
    Luke 4:28-30~"And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,  And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way",
    Studyman, YOU PICK which Godhead attribute did Jesus use to leave them before they acted on their wrath and hatred~His omniscience of knowing all things even their secret thoughts and he left BEFORE hey did anything to him, or when they started to hurt him, he simply went through their mist WITHOUT them knowing that he had left. One or the other, neither which a mere man could do. There are others, but time would fail me to consider them~well, in the mouth of two witnesses shall every word be established.
    Quote from: John the apostle
    John 8:58,59~"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."
    To PROVE that he was INDEED the I AM THAT I AM! Selah! Sir, you need to repent of that statement based upon the testimony of the word of God.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    What is the "nature of Angels"? Are they not immortal? What separates angels from the Seed of Abraham? Is it not immortality?
    Angels are spirits sent forth to minister unto the heirs of God's salvation to his elect. Hebrews chapter one. No Jesus did not take on their nature but came in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, something that the first Adam could not do, and neither could you or I, or any man other than the MAN Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    I have no problem with the God of Abraham becoming Flesh and dwelling among men. I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh, that He was also 100% God with 100% of the Power of God and that is how He overcame. I don't agree with this because the scriptures teach against it.
    No one is saying:
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    that He was also 100% God with 100% of the Power of God
    Then you DO have a problem with Jesus being 100% God~because he WAS~as I said many times above, Jesus was a complex person with TWO NATURES and these two natures were ever kept separate in him. This is the testimony of the word of God.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    that is how He overcame. I don't agree with this because the scriptures teach against it.
    He condemned sin IN THE FLESH of Jesus of Nazareth, and it was his flesh that was put to death and offered as a sacrifice for our sins. NOT sure WHO you are arguing with, a strawman that YOU Have created is all that I can see.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    The deity of Christ is that He was God who became mortal, who risked His immortality to do the Will of His Father. And for His faith, Trust, obedience He was given, BY GOD THE FATHER, a name greater than any name. This is what the scriptures say.
    The truth is: In the beginning GOD, purpose to reveal himself~chosen to do this by having a Son after his own image begotten by him by his infinite wisdom and power. This Son would share his own nature as God, yet also would be made in the likeness of flesh and blood. God ordained certain individuals to eternal life through the obedience and faith of his Son whom he KNEW would do his will perfectly from conception to death on the cross. There was no possibility of failure if we understand The book Ephesians the first three chapters as we should. There were NO RISH involved (Acts 2:23) since God worked all things out according to his own will. His will cannot be defeated or even hinder. To think otherwise is blasphemy.
    Quote
    Red, you are a nice man, and you are zealous for the Lord there is no doubt. And you have not resorted to insults, ridicule, or belittling and that means something to me. And I appreciate your candor and your zeal. 
    I am what I am by the grace of God~what I do is I do labor to hear men patiently and show respect as long as they are hearing me as I am trying to hear them. What you have said about me could be said about Tony of being a worthy brother to listen to who is sober-minded and has given himself to defend the scriptures testimony according to the light God has been pleased to give him. But no man is without error and all should be tested with the word of God~we all spend our lives learning the truth and departing from errors a never-ending job.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    But there is a problem in the doctrine that the Christ didn't really come in the Flesh. Not because I say so, but because so many scriptures say so.
    Not sure what exactly you mean with this statement. Do you mean that Jesus was NOT the Christ, or that he was and people do not believe this?
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    This is another scripture I hadn't considered. You are preaching that Jesus was 100% God. Who is the Christ talking about here? When shall they SEE God?
    That's hard to believe that you have never considered Matthew 5:8~if that's the case then you should be listening and not teaching the scriptures. I would never teach any doctrine that I could not defend especially when it comes to the Sonship of Jesus Christ. We shall see God in the person of Jesus Christ when he comes again, or at the death of our body if we are a child of God.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    It is my Hope to "overcome" in this World with Faith in Jesus the Risen Christ, as He, the man, had Faith in God the Father. AS it is written.
    In one true biblical sense we have ALREADY overcome in Jesus' faith and obedience, and even NOW we are seated TOGETHER with him in the heavenly places legally speaking. Legally when Christ arose, WE AROSE WITH HIM~ where he sits, we sit together WITH HIM, being members of his spiritual body! My hope of eternal life is IN CHRIST alone, his faith and his obedience, not mine~if it depend on my faithfulness, I would not receive anything from the Lord, but eternal damnation.
    Quote from: Studyman Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 06:00:17 PM
    Will I see the long haired image of God created by religious man and plastered in nearly every town on the planet? Is this the Jesus that I seek? No Red, it is not. The Jesus I seek is the One who became a man, in all things as His brethren, and overcome sin by Faith in the Power of His Father, and because of this great victory, was granted a Name above all other men.
    This SAME Jesus will be the ONLY God you and I will ever see, for God is a Spirit that inhabits eternity that not even angels have ever seen, EXCEPT in the person of Jesus Christ as he walked on this earth around two thousand years ago. When we shall see God it will be JESUS CHRIST who IS the true God and eternal life!
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Theo on January 07, 2019, 09:42:39 AM
    I have no problem with the God of Abraham becoming Flesh and dwelling among men. I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh,

    I say  )help( also Frank,
         I think we've all had about enough of the unstudied-man's lies and so I implore the administrative moderator to step in and either remove him from the forum for constant false witness against participants, heresy, deceit or posting in biblical forums without addressing biblically any scriptures coherently.

     )rulz( The forum rules state that Heresy or Proselytizing by cults or unbiblical unsupportable false teachings is not welcome here. It says if you post, be prepared to address what you post, or do not post it. These are 'discussion' forums, so it is improper to simply post scriptures for the sake of posting scripture. If you post them, be prepared to 'discuss' them. That's what the rules state, and that has not been the case.

    Also, there is the violation of his constant, continual, deliberate and unconscionable false witness as he claims we do not believe God came in the flesh, even when constantly told by those he accuses that they do believe that. That is a deliberate misrepresentation and such a character should not be allowed to continue this charade in the forum. I've already posted a "Report To Moderator" and I hope others will as well because these lies and misrepresentations have to stop.

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 07, 2019, 01:36:28 PM
    Quote
    Studyman, you keep building this strawman and then you are fighting against him, for no one has said that as a man Jesus did his own will, of course, he did not do his own will, neither did he cause his voice to be heard in the streets, in that he never lifted himself up, but came as a lowly servant, serving, not to be served by others. Can we lay this to bed once for all?

    Modern religions teach the Word of God didn't become mortal man in all things as His Brethren. That He overcome temptation, not as a man trusting His Father in all things, but as an immortal God that can not be tempted and cannot die.. I am posting God's Word's which say He was a man, in all things like unto His Brethren. That He depended on God the Father for ALL His Power, just like His Brethren. (Moses, Elijah) That He was God, who became a MAN.

    You are preaching He was a man and immortal God, that when He was tempted He kicked in His 2nd nature, immortal God powers no human has ever had access to. He said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His power, all His miracles, even the power to raise from the dead, came, not from His immortal Self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father. As it were written.

     Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, (Not God, not immortal God Man) he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore (Therefore, because as a Man, God the Son humbled Himself) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    Why is it so hard to believe that the Word of God became mortal man? Every scripture about Him tells us this?

    Where is the flesh and blood Jesus that was born and died? Where is the Word of God which became Flesh and blood, was born and died?

    1 Cor. 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    No, we see the mortal Jesus no more, He died and was Risen the First Man, the first mortal to inherit immortality. The First Fruit of "many" who believe in Him and obey Him.

    Red, The mortal man Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh in all things as His Brethren, is gone. He isn't walking the earth any longer. The Bible teaches that because God the Son, became a man and placed His trust in His Father in all things, that God the Father raised His Mortal body and gave Him immortality as He had before He laid down His Life. BECAUSE this great MAN dedicated His Life, not to Himself, but to God the Father, He became the Author of my Faith, that I should live unto Him as He lived unto His Father.

    Religious men of this world have taken this Glory away from Him. They teach that He wasn't really a man at all, but also an immortal God. And He didn't lay down His Life really, because an immortal God can not die, as some have said flat out on this forum. And that He didn't overcome sin as a mortal man who trusted God the Father in all things, but overcome sin because He was also an immortal God.

    Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    8 Though he were a Son, (The Word of God, the creator of all things)

    yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    How does the Word of God, God the Son, the Immortal Alpha and Omega, "learn obedience"? Suffer Temptation? You say Jesus was Both immortal God, and was Flesh and Blood. But the Bible teaches against this.

    1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Does this not also include the Victory Jesus had?

    You preach Jesus wasn't corruptible. Yet verse after verse tell us He Learned obedience, He LEARNED to "choose the good and reject the evil". He prayed to His Father in tears and fear. "He grew in wisdom" He was God who became mortal, was "made perfect" and was given immortality just as the scriptures teach. You might not believe He was mortal, but He sure did.

    1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

    16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Yet you preach Jesus had both immortality, and was a Man. 2 natures. Yet no "man" can approach immortality according to scriptures.

    I know you have been taught this, and who am I, right? Some nobody. I get how this works. But can you not consider that maybe the scriptures are right, and it is the religious doctrines and ancient traditions of religious man who is wrong.

    That in Truth the Word of God became mortal man in all things like unto His Brethren, as prophesied. That He did truly come in the Flesh. And that He had a Great Victory over sin and death because He Lived unto His Father and not Himself unto death.

    To say Jesus was both Flesh and immortal can not be supported be the Word of God. To teach such a thing is to teach He really didn't come in the Flesh.

    I still appreciate your input and this discussion. You are truly a kind man. And I understand completely how one can come by this belief. It is truly the doctrine of the land. My question regarding this religious doctrine is a valid one, and important. What Jesus is promoted in many religions? The Jesus who was immortal God from Birth, or the Jesus who was the Word of God who became mortal man?

    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 07, 2019, 03:55:54 PM

    Quote
    I'm sure you know that the Scripture doesn't say that God became something different, it "literally" says that "God took the form of a Servant." That's quite different from the portrait that you attempt to paint of Him becoming something different other than God. He didn't cease to be God when He took the form of man, He was still God the creator.  The Word of God clearly contradicts any idea that Christ was not God in the flesh and that He would raise up His body.

    This is exactly the teaching you called me a liar for pointing out. That God never stopped being immortal, the Creator of all things.

    The scriptures say God became a Man, mortal man. Not the Form of God, or angels, but of the seed of Abraham, mortal men. Not man in appearance, or man/God, but that God became a Flesh and Blood mortal man in the person of Jesus. So Jesus was God as a mortal, God as a man. You just said He never stopped being immortal God. That He was always immortal God. That He really didn't become Flesh in all things as His Brethren. This is exactly the teachings, the Doctrine that this thread addresses.

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

      When did He know this? At 2 years of age? At 5? No one wants to answer this question. But the scriptures are right there. He "found Himself in the fashion as a man", not some immortal hybrid, or a God Man. But God in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren. (Moses, Elijah) Just as Moses, David, Isaiah prophesied. And when He "found" Himself in this state, as a mortal man, He didn't follow the dictates of His own human mind, but humbled Himself to God the Father and obeyed Him in all things unto death.

    9 Wherefore (Because of this)  God (His Father that He prayed earnestly to) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    He was God the Son, and He became mortal Man. At some point in His human life He realized who He was. And when it was revealed to Him that He was the God of Abraham found in fashion as mortal Man, He Humbled Himself and "BECAME" Obedient. How can I ignore or not believe these Word's especially given they agree with EVERY other Word of God regarding Him?


    Quote
    Quote
    John 2:19
    • "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    Some might feel better if it were written differently, but Christ didn't say "My God will raise it up," He said He (Jesus Christ) would raise it up when they destroyed it. He was unambiguously still speaking "as God" because He was God. Yet humbled in the form of a man in order to suffer and redeem man. It's not rocket science, it's clearly what is written.
    [/quote]

    If this was the only Word's of the Christ, if you ignore all other Word's that are written by Him, you might have a case. But Jesus clearly taught that His Father gave Him His Power.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    God the Son already had authority to execute Judgment. He created the Law, He killed people, He gave Elijah the power to raise the dead, Moses the Power do miracles. But the Word says this same God became a Man, became a Flesh and Blood mortal. A man must "learn" judgment, must "learn obedience" as it is written. And where did He get the Judgment He used? His own mind? Or did He Humble Himself to God the father and "live by Every Word which proceeds from His Mouth"?


    I could go on and on and have already posted many other Word's of my Savior in which He tells us where His Mortal Self received His Power, authority, judgment.

    Shall I ignore all these because religions of the Land don't believe God came to earth as a Flesh and Blood mortal Man?

    These are valid questions and valid points, not from some religious franchise somewhere, but from God's Words. Did Jesus cave to the religions of the Land He was born into? Did Abraham? It's not my fault that you don't know or haven't considered these things.

    I am here not as your enemy, but as your brother. I am a nobody this is true, but the Word's I am posting are not my own. And are we not instructed to test the religious doctrines of the land? You anger is misplaced, and although common, would be better directed actually studying His Word's I have posted.

    If, through EVERY WORD of God, you find that the Word of God didn't come to earth in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren, show me His words. But if you find He did come in the Flesh, as a man in all things as His Brethren, and was, as a mortal, tempted in ALL WAYS as every mortal man, then you will have the same choice that faced Abraham, Caleb, the Apostles, and Jesus Himself. Do we follow the religious doctrines and traditions of the religion we were born into, or do we do as Jesus the Man instructed, "man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".





    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Erik Diamond on January 08, 2019, 08:33:21 AM
    Studyman, I can say that your doctrine isn’t accurate because of too much speculations and assumptions you have made when defending your doctrine.  I can see that you have forced Scripture to say something when it doesn’t say.  You clearly denied Christ as God in flesh as if He was a created being apart from His Deity.
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 08, 2019, 09:47:16 AM
    Studyman, I can say that your doctrine isn’t accurate because of too much speculations and assumptions you have made when defending your doctrine.  I can see that you have forced Scripture to say something when it doesn’t say.  You clearly denied Christ as God in flesh as if He was a created being apart from His Deity.

    The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

    I have made the case using, not my word's, but volumes of scriptures from the Law and the Prophets, from Jesus Himself, from His apostles. Over and over the scriptures teach God came to earth in the Flesh, not in immortality, in the person of Jesus.

    Show me the speculations and assumptions. I don't have a religious franchise to defend, or a denomination to support. I am trusted Every Word of God. How am I assuming Jesus was a mortal man in all things as His Brethren?



    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Erik Diamond on January 08, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
    Quote
    The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

    Of all 38 posts you have made here so far, you were emphasizing that Jesus Christ was merely a man, not a God. So let test this with the rest of Scripture to find out where you stand on other subject concerning Jesus Christ.



    Archangel Michael
    Daniel 10:13
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 09, 2019, 11:25:54 AM
    Quote
    author=Erik Diamond link=topic=3414.msg40988#msg40988 date=1546971665]
    The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

    Of all 38 posts you have made here so far, you were emphasizing that Jesus Christ was merely a man, not a God. So let test this with the rest of Scripture to find out where you stand on other subject concerning Jesus Christ.



    Archangel Michael
    Daniel 10:13
    • "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."
    • Daniel 10:21
    • "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."
    • Daniel 12:1
    • "And at that time shall Michael stand up, The Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    • And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
    • Jude 1:9
      • "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

      Do you believe that Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ with the name Michael in Hebrew origin [miykael] which means "He who is assuredly God"?

      Daniel's prince is Jesus Christ. He is not any other man, not any other angel (messenger).  Michael, is He who is assuredly God, would be the only one who would help in this time of need.  This comes from Jesus Christ Himself! He is the archangel himself because He is the Lord, as it is written:
    Thank you for the scriptures and the question. First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man. This same God the Father sent angels to protect Him from evil men when He was a child. Why would evil men want to harm this Child?

    Rev. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. So yes The scriptures say He was a Man in all things as His Brethren, but certainly not a "mere man". God sent His Son on a mission, to come to earth as a man become the unblemished Lamb. Jesus finished His Work.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    The Christ, the God of Abraham may have been helped by the Archangel Michael. But if you read all of Daniel 10, and not just verse 13, it kind of answers this question for me. Let me show you..

    Dan. 10:4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel; 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

    So I believe in this vision, this was the Word of God, the Christ, before He came to earth in the Flesh. Do you agree that this is the Christ, God the Son who created all things, which was Speaking to Daniel? I have noticed many on this forum like to insult and ask questions, but few are willing to answer them. So please allow the common curtsey of any discussion and please answer the questions I pose to you as I answer the questions you pose to me.


     7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. 10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

    So in my understanding, the Christ, the Rock, was sent by His Father to speak with Daniel in a vision. You may say this was God the father, but then who SENT HIM? So the face of Lightning was the God of Abraham. Are we still in agreement?


     12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:

    So the "Me" spoken of here is who? The Christ, Yes? The Rock in His Glory, yes? So the Prince of Persia withstood the Christ 21 days in this vision. Are we still in agreement?


     but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

    Doesn't this say Michael helped "ME"? Isn't the "ME" the Christ?

    Matt. 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He (God the Father) shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    Matt. 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

    I can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

    Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

    And we already know satan was out to get the Christ and those who believe on Him. And we know God has Angels dedicated to administer to Him and His Little ones. And we know this same God sent Angels to administer to Jesus the man on more than one occasion. And in this vision that you posted, Michael helped the Christ. Michael wasn't the Christ.

    But lets examine all your evidence that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.


    Quote
    Quote

    1st Thessalonians 4:16[/font][/li]
    [/list]
    • "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    • Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
    • John 5:26-29
    • "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    • And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    • Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
    • And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
    • Jesus Christ is Archangel who will shout His Voice that all in the graves shall hear HIS voice. Period.

      Man Child

    Well for starters this scriptures says the Risen Christ come "with the voice of the Archangel" which agrees with Daniel who said "and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.". Jesus also said;

    Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

    Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Among them, not one of them)

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Not one of His Holy Angels)

    1 Tim. 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Michael?)

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him .

    Heb. 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?


    Quote
    Quote
    Revelation 12:1-8 KJV
    [1]  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    [2]  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    [3]  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    [4]  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    [5]  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    [6]  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    [7]  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    [8]  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    First, when was this war fought. When did satan get cast down from heaven never to return? In your religion, was it satan who convinced Eve of a Lie? That was a long time before Jesus walked the earth as a man. When Jesus was a man walking on earth, did He rule over the Nations with a Rod of Iron?

    Of course not Erik. He was a man. As it is written "He was To rule" over the nations, but as a man He was the Lamb for the Slaughter. When He comes back, He won't be pushed around by those who call Him Lord, Lord, but don't do what He says.

    I will number your question to make it easier to track them.

    Quote
    (#1) Tell me, who is this man child? Jesus Christ? (#2) Then who is this woman who gave birth? (#3) What happened to Jesus Christ when he ascended unto God and His Throne? Wasn't He God also? (#4) Notice Michael again in verse 7, isn't it Christ as well?

    Let hear your position on these based on your doctrine that Jesus Christ was only merely a man.
    [/li]
    [/list]

    #1. Yes, Jesus the Christ, the Rock, the Word of God which became Flesh.

    #2. A virgin so it was fulfilled that which was written in the Scriptures. Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

    #3. Yes, As it is written. Ps. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

    7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (or "Because of this") God, (The Father in Heaven) thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    #4. No, Michael is not the Christ. Michael serves and Worships and administers to the Christ.

    Ps. 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

    Heb. 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Ps. 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Even Michael)

    7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    So not by my word's Erik, or the words of the Pope, or of some other famous religious man, but by EVERY WORD of God, through Study of His Word's, it can be said for absolute Certain, and an Absolute Biblical Fact, that Michael the Archangel is not Jesus the Risen Christ.

    At least according to His Word's. So Now what. Will you join the others in insults and ridicule, call for my being banned from discussions here. Will you call me a liar and hate me because the scriptures prove you believed in something that wasn't true according to scriptures?

    Or will you and I grow together in the knowledge of our Lord, in the unity of Faith.








    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 09, 2019, 01:24:47 PM
    He overcame sin as a God Man. Not God and not man, but the God Man. He had to be God because no man could overcome sin, and he had to be man because it was for man that he had to overcome sin. So you are both right and you are both wrong. He was God come to earth in the flesh of man to overcome the sins of man. He had to be man and he had to be god, without either one he couldn't be a substitute for man. If it were true he was only God then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just snapped his fingers and we would have been forgiven. But that would violate the law. God never violates his law. The wages of sin is death. A man had to die and a God had to go through death as substitution man, in order for man to live.

    I don't agree that the Bible teaches a man can not repent, turn to God and obey Him. The reason I don't agree with this religious doctrine popular in the religions of this land is because what the Word of God says.
     
    Gen. 6: 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

    Now do I believe Noah never transgressed God's Laws? No, but he repented, and loved God with all His Heart, and learned obedience from the things he suffered.

    Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
    4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him

    Abraham could have said "No!! I will not leave My religion, or the religion of my family" but He didn't. He trusted the Word of God and did as He said.

    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
     
    Did Abraham have sin on Him? Sure He did, God didn't call him until he was 70 plus years old. Did he not repent and turn to God? You say it is impossible for a man to trust God enough to obey Him. The Bible teaches just the opposite.

    Now all Abraham's obedience does not take away or remove the sins he committed in 70 years of living outside of God's influence. He was guilty, and the wages of sin is death. So a sacrifice had to be made to cleanse his sin. And he knew who would become this sacrifice.

    Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    Again, it is not impossible for man to obey God, it is impossible for man to erase their past sins. All God's true Children live in obedience to Him with all their heart. But that will not take away their past sins.

    Jesus was the first man to "become obedient" from His Youth. He is not the first man to live in obedience to God. To say such a thing is to Deny His Own Words.

    Matt. 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

    13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    There were some who had already repented. Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, and the faith chapter is full of examples of folks who lived in the Faith of Abraham.

    So I know it is common religious doctrine to say no man can obey God. But according to His Word's Some have, and many can if they trust His Word's over their own. As it is written.

    2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    So the human logic that Jesus had to be an immortal God in order to obey His Own Laws that He created for man, and killed many thousands who disobeyed Him, doesn't make any sense. And the scriptures don't support this either. But it is the widespread belief of the land just the same.

    The Christ became mortal man and did exactly what you have been convinced no man can do. And for His dedication to the Father, God the father gave the first human ever to overcome sin from his Youth a name greater than every name. And He "became" the First Mortal Human to die and be raised in an immortal body. The First human of many. therefore the First Fruit of many.

    But as it is written, "many" don't believe He really came in the Flesh in all things as His mortal Brethren. But I am convinced that the scriptures are truth, and that the Christ came to earth as a mortal man. I have been provided lots of words from man, but no scriptural evidence that Jesus the Man, was also immortal God.


    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Erik Diamond on January 09, 2019, 02:15:10 PM
    Quote
    First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man.

    You are deceiving yourself. You are working very hard by introducing your doctrine here by keeping man Christ and God Christ separate from each other.

    And yes, "Mere man" is same as a "mortal man" that you often used in your false doctrine.  Aren't I a mortal man and mere man as well?

    And yes, your doctrine does view Jesus Christ as mere man... or mortal man. Here are your statement:

    1.) "Word of God become a man in all things like unto His Brethren."

    2.) "Jesus depended on God the father for "ALL" of His Power, just like His Brethren."

    3.) "He (Jesus) said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His Power, all His Miracles, even the power to raise the dead, came, not from His immortal self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father."

    Your doctrine denies Trinity.  As Tony explained:

    1st John 5:7-8John 10:30-33
    Quote
    [size=78%]I[/size] can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

    Archangel Michael is just other name for Jesus Christ, a chief messenger.  I think you need to read the following study:

    Who is the Archangel Michael? (http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html)
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Erik Diamond on January 09, 2019, 02:20:26 PM
    Quote from: studyman
    I have made the case using, not my word's, but volumes of scriptures from the Law and the Prophets, from Jesus Himself, from His apostles. Over and over the scriptures teach God came to earth in the Flesh, not in immortality, in the person of Jesus.

    You simple twisted the Scripture with a preconceive mind that man Christ was not a God. 
    Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
    Post by: Studyman on January 09, 2019, 05:23:44 PM
    Quote
    author=Erik Diamond link=topic=3414.msg40997#msg40997 date=1547061310]
    First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man.

    You are deceiving yourself. You are working very hard by introducing your doctrine here by keeping man Christ and God Christ separate from each other.

    And yes, "Mere man" is same as a "mortal man" that you often used in your false doctrine.  Aren't I a mortal man and mere man as well?

    And yes, your doctrine does view Jesus Christ as mere man... or mortal man. Here are your statement:

    1.) "Word of God become a man in all things like unto His Brethren."

    2.) "Jesus depended on God the father for "ALL" of His Power, just like His Brethren."

    I believe in these Word's because they are the Word's of the Bible. Jesus said God His Father sent Him to do something and He finished the Work. You can choose to believe He didn't come in all Things as His Brethren if you like. I am simply showing what Moses, Isaiah Jesus Himself and His apostles said about Him. I would post the scriptures, but you will just ignore them again.


    Quote
    3.) "He (Jesus) said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His Power, all His Miracles, even the power to raise the dead, came, not from His immortal self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father."

    Your doctrine denies Trinity.  As Tony explained:

    1st John 5:7-8
    • "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    • And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
    • God sent His Son and His Spirit into the world that the world through them might be saved. God "alone" is Savior and no one else. This because God is the Father of the Son by the Holy Spirit of whom He was born. That Holy Spirit of God is what seals us through the work of Christ.Ephesians 1:13
    • "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
    • Just who saved us? Was it the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? In truth, it was all three because all three are God. There is one God, one name whereby men may be saved, and one Spirit who sealed us. There's no contradiction because the foundation of Christianity is Salvation by Grace of God through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is this one God.

      Therefore Jesus Christ is God come in flesh.  Because this Christ is actually creator God, according to ALL of Scripture. The son and the father are one. Didn't you read the Scripture, studyman?
    John 10:30-33
      Jesus said Him and His Father are one. Does this statement erase the scriptures that teach Christ came to earth as a man in all things as His Brethren? Does this verse negate the Biblical Fact that He became a man? Are we not also to become one with Jesus? Does that mean I am immortal too? Or does it mean what Jesus says it means.

      John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


      Quote
         
      • "I and my Father are one.
      • Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
      • Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
      • But He wasn't a mere man as they supposed. The wanted to stone him for the same reason the anti-Trinity folk rejects His very same message. That is the message you are trying to sell here.

      Jesus the man was God, who came to earth in the Flesh. They didn't believe this, and it seems maybe you guys don't believe it either. Again, if this was the whole Bible, if Jesus, or His Prophets of Old, or His Apostles, had not said another Word about who Jesus was, then you might have a case. But this verse you singled out isn't the only Word's Spoken.

      But I have already said all these things, posted volumes and volumes of His Word's which you have simply ignored. As I said. If you want to believe Jesus came to earth as an immortal God, you are free to do so. But since I am getting all my information about the Christ from Every Word of God, and the scriptures are clear, Jesus didn't come to earth as an immortal God, rather, as a man in all things as His Brethren, tempted in all ways as His Brethren. Was born, and died, and was raised an immortal Spiritual Body, and given a Name by His father above all names given unto man.

      I don't believe He was "mere man" just as I don't believe John the Baptist was a "mere man". They both were given specific missions from God. As for the Christ, David said, in the Spirit.

      Psalms 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

      And this agrees with the rest of the Scriptures about Him.

      Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

      Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

      So His Father sent Him as a man, sent angels to protect Him. As all men He had to learn obedience because He was born of a woman, born under His own Law. His Bible says He grew in Wisdom, and when He found out who He was, He humbled Himself to God.

      Now you are free to reject all this evidence which shows He truly came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren if you like, and preach He came to earth as an immortal God Man. I am simply showing all the scriptures which confirm what the Bible says about Him, that He came in the Flesh, not in immortality.


      [/list]
      Quote
      [size=78%]I[/size] can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

      Archangel Michael is just other name for Jesus Christ, a chief messenger.  I think you need to read the following study:

      Who is the Archangel Michael? (http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html)


      Well there you go. You ask questions, but never answer them. You say I'm deceived, yet you don't address my posts.

      That's OK. Tony seems like a nice guy and I'm sure he believes what He teaches. I have read this very study, or one like it almost 30 years ago now. But you didn't even answer the questions I posed on Daniel 10 where I actually posted other Word's of the Inspired Author, instead of just taking a couple of sentences out of the middle. Both you and Tony, thought it prudent to omit the rest of Daniel 10 to support your religious doctrine. Since I don't have a religious doctrine to defend, It didn't hurt my belief to include other Word's of the chapter. I'm interested in what the word says, not religious traditions of the land.

      Had you addressed the rest of Daniel 10, and answered the questions I posed, it would have altered the entire study. Who did Michael help in Daniel 10? And who sent this "man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:" to speak to Daniel, that the Archangel Michael helped?

      You can place your belief and trust in the doctrines of Tony if you want. He seems like a nice guy. But Daniel 10, if you read the whole chapter, completely exposes the religious doctrine "Jesus is Michael the Archangel" as from man, and not from God. Since I'm here to discuss the Bible and what it says about the Christ, I not really interested in the religious doctrines of the Land, especially those who seem to contradict the very Word's of the Christ they claim to represent.

      If you can answer these two questions I posed to you, and still further the religious doctrine that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, well, go for it. But it seems obvious that, at least in Daniel, they were not the same person.

      Of course you will probably not answer again. I am just a nobody. How dare I question the religious doctrines of the land. I will be insulted, ridiculed, probably banned from discussion all together. It's a reality from religious man since Abel was killed by His religious brother Cain.

      But if you do answer these two questions, and you "SEE" what they reveal about the difference between Michael and Jesus, will you acknowledge it openly? I think understanding who Daniel was talking to, Who sent Him, and who Michael helped as Daniel described, is the foundation to understanding who Michael is.

      I would like to hear your take on it since you have made such an evil report about my posts.


      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Mark on January 11, 2019, 05:46:32 PM
      Studyman,

      That doesn’t prove Michael isn’t Christ, have you ever read in scriptures:

      Zec 3:1-3

      And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

      Here we have the Messenger of the LORD and also Joshua the High Priest both there with Satan standing at Christ right hand to resist him. This was during the days of his flesh as representive of man. I am sure you are aware that Jesus and Joshua are the same name.

      As for God helping God that can searched out in scriptures if you will receive it:

      Luk 22:42,43

      Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

      Unless you believe that this messenger from heaven is a created being that can give God strength somehow. This is God strengthening God for our learning.

      God bless
      Mark
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Studyman on January 12, 2019, 09:02:37 AM
      Studyman,

      That doesn’t prove Michael isn’t Christ, have you ever read in scriptures:

      Zec 3:1-3

      And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

      Here we have the Messenger of the LORD and also Joshua the High Priest both there with Satan standing at Christ right hand to resist him. This was during the days of his flesh as representive of man. I am sure you are aware that Jesus and Joshua are the same name.

      As for God helping God that can searched out in scriptures if you will receive it:

      Luk 22:42,43

      Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

      Unless you believe that this messenger from heaven is a created being that can give God strength somehow. This is God strengthening God for our learning.

      God bless
      Mark

      Thank you for your input Mark. I appreciate the point you made.

      I think what I'm interested in is to make sure we don't omit scriptures in order to defend a doctrine we have been convinced of. For instance in Zechariah 3, lets look at what the chapter says.

      1 And he shewed me (Zechariah)  Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him (Joshua).

      2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

       So far we have 4 folks attending. We have "The Lord", we have "the Angel of the Lord", and we have Satan, and we have Joshua. It doesn't say the Angel of the Lord said unto satan. And surely you aren't preaching that the Archangel Michael chose Jerusalem.

      3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

      4 And he (The Lord) answered and spake unto those that stood before him, (The angel of the Lord) saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

      So who did "HE", the Lord, tell to remove the garments? If you believe The Christ and the Angel of the Lord is the same, then in your belief there was only 3 folks there. )The Angel of the Lord (you call Christ) Satan and Joshua. So do you believe then that the "Angel of the Lord" removed His iniquity, and then told satan to take away Jesus's old garments and then the Angel of the Lord will clothe him with new ones?

      5 And I (The Lord) said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

      Who are the "they" Mark?

      6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

      So this isn't The Lord protesting, this is the angel of the Lord who was standing by him..


      7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

      So the Angel of the Lord is telling Joshua  what "THE LORD" of Hosts saith. And if Joshua hearkens to "The Lord's" Words, He will give Joshua a place to walk "among these that stand by". And who is it that is standing by Joshua? "It just said "and the Angel of the Lord stood by".


      8 Hear now, O Joshua, the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

      Who are those that are sitting before Joshua? Are you saying Michael will bring forth his servant, the Branch? If Joshua represents Jesus, then who is the Branch?

      9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

      10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

      You see what I mean Mark? It doesn't make any sense preach that these scripture proves Jesus is Michael. Others might, I'm only speaking to the chapter you used to promote the doctrine you believe.

      But if you understand that the Risen Christ, the Son of God, will come with His Angels, including Michael, to gather His Elect from the four corners of the earth, and that this vision represents all who died in Christ as did Joshua, and how the first resurrection will take place, then this chapter aligns itself perfectly with the rest of the Word's of God.

      Matt. 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

      As for the man Jesus being an immortal God asking another immortal God for help, the verse you used doesn't prove that either. Jesus, the Man was following His own instruction for all man.

      Matt. 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

      10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

      11 Give us this day our daily bread.

      12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

      13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

      Thanks again for the reply, it is good for men to discuss His Word in these evil times. I would welcome more discussion of Zec. 3, either on this open forum, or PM. I hope to have such a discussion with you.
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Mark on January 12, 2019, 08:07:56 PM
      Greetings Studyman,

      Thank you for your response. It’s not my intention to hijack this thread regarding Zechariah chapter 3, so my apologies. When I have access to my computer (responding off my phone) I can answer your questions.

      Thank you everyone.

      Mark
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Mark on January 13, 2019, 03:18:08 AM


      Quote
      I think what I'm interested in is to make sure we don't omit scriptures in order to defend a doctrine we have been convinced of. For instance in Zechariah 3, lets look at what the chapter says.

      1 And he shewed me (Zechariah)  Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him (Joshua).

      2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

       So far we have 4 folks attending. We have "The Lord", we have "the Angel of the Lord", and we have Satan, and we have Joshua. It doesn't say the Angel of the Lord said unto satan. And surely you aren't preaching that the Archangel Michael chose Jerusalem.

      We do indeed have 4 people but you see the Angel of Lord is the LORD not another. There is Zechariah, the Messenger of the Lord, Joshua the High Priest and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And yes the LORD chose Jerusalem not a created angel being.

      Exodus 13:21-22

      21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

      22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

      Exodus 14:19

      19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:


      Quote
      3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

      4 And he (The Lord) answered and spake unto those that stood before him, (The angel of the Lord) saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

      So who did "HE", the Lord, tell to remove the garments? If you believe The Christ and the Angel of the Lord is the same, then in your belief there was only 3 folks there. )The Angel of the Lord (you call Christ) Satan and Joshua. So do you believe then that the "Angel of the Lord" removed His iniquity, and then told satan to take away Jesus's old garments and then the Angel of the Lord will clothe him with new ones?

      He being the LORD and removing the filthy garments our our sin on Him(Christ) who truly is our High Priest. This is a picture of the Triune Godhead at the cross.

      Quote
      5 And I (The Lord) said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

      Who are the "they" Mark?

      The I in that verse would be Zechariah would it not, this language of they setting a fair mitre (head dress, diadem) and clothed him with garments is all part of the spiritual picture the Holy Spirit is painting for us regarding the Christ as the substitutionary sacrifice and Saviour of man.

      Quote
      6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

      So this isn't The Lord protesting, this is the angel of the Lord who was standing by him..


      7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

      So the Angel of the Lord is telling Joshua  what "THE LORD" of Hosts saith. And if Joshua hearkens to "The Lord's" Words, He will give Joshua a place to walk "among these that stand by". And who is it that is standing by Joshua? "It just said "and the Angel of the Lord stood by".

      The Lord is protesting to Joshua the High Priest is he not. Why are you so keen to have the Angel of the LORD not the LORD GOD himself when comparing scripture with scripture we see that he is GOD, the great I AM and not some created heavenly messenger.

      Exodus 3:2-6

      2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

      3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

      4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

      5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

      6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 

      Have you read Tony's article Erik gave the link for?

      Quote
      8 Hear now, O Joshua, the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

      Who are those that are sitting before Joshua? Are you saying Michael will bring forth his servant, the Branch? If Joshua represents Jesus, then who is the Branch?

      9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

      10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

      You see what I mean Mark? It doesn't make any sense preach that these scripture proves Jesus is Michael. Others might, I'm only speaking to the chapter you used to promote the doctrine you believe.

      But if you understand that the Risen Christ, the Son of God, will come with His Angels, including Michael, to gather His Elect from the four corners of the earth, and that this vision represents all who died in Christ as did Joshua, and how the first resurrection will take place, then this chapter aligns itself perfectly with the rest of the Word's of God.

      The first resurrection is spiritual and takes place in this life, that is to say here on earth with the Baptism/regeneration of the Holy Spirit not at the last day as the rest of the dead that didn't take part in his(Christ) resurrection. Please go read that thread and weigh up what is being said there and compare it with the Word of God (As the noble Bereans did).

      Quote
      As for the man Jesus being an immortal God asking another immortal God for help, the verse you used doesn't prove that either. Jesus, the Man was following His own instruction for all man.

      I am sorry you don't see Christ as the immortal God when he was in the days of his flesh , I pray that he who is only able to show any of us his truth to his most glorious word will open yours, mine and everyone's eyes to whomsoever he chooses according to his will.

      God bless

      Mark
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Studyman on January 14, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
      Quote
      author=Mark link=topic=3414.msg41020#msg41020 date=1547367488]


      I am sorry you don't see Christ as the immortal God when he was in the days of his flesh , I pray that he who is only able to show any of us his truth to his most glorious word will open yours, mine and everyone's eyes to whomsoever he chooses according to his will.

      God bless

      Mark

      I appreciate your input. I believe the Christ Laid down His Life for me. Came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren. Was Tempted "in all ways" as His Brethren.

      Immortal God can not die, but Jesus did. Man is not immortal, Jesus and His Word from the very beginning says He came as a man. God can not be tempted, but Jesus was.

      I have made the case that God the Son became a mortal man, came in the Flesh, to fulfill the unblemished Lamb for the perfect sacrifice. Many, who come in Christ's name, don't believe He really came in the Flesh but was immortal, and that He really didn't overcome sin by Faith in His Father, rather, He came in appearance of a man, but when the going got tough, He kicked in immortality and His Power no other human has access to. So in the flesh He really didn't over come sin. He really didn't lay down His Life because He remained immortal. That God really didn't raise Him from the dead because someone immortal can not die, so He really wasn't dead.

      So I "SEE" the Christ as immortal God before He was "found" in the fashion of a man, and I "SEE" the Risen Christ, Glorified by God the Father "BECAUSE" of what He did as a man.

      Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this reason)God, thy God, (God the Father) hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

      And this "Man" became the first mortal human to receive the "Promise". The First of many, or as it is written "The Firstfruit". To say He was immortal God, and not mortal man, that He is not the first human to receive the Promise undermines this whole concept. Immortal God already had the "Promise", it is man who waits for the promise. Jesus said those who "Endure to the end" (That would be the end of their lives) as He endured to the end would receive this Promise that he received of His Father.

      Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:


      I know this understanding bucks the ancient traditions of the religions of the land that teach He really didn't come to earth "in all things as His Brethren", that He didn't really "Lay down His Life", but retained His immortality no other human has ever had. I was hoping to examine all the scriptures and shed Light on this issue.

      Kind of ran into a buzz saw which is to expected given the examples of religious men the Christ had written for our admonition.

      At any rate, thank you for your kind and measured response.

      You have a good day Mark :)




      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Wcjciech Semkowski on January 14, 2019, 11:02:20 PM
      Quote
      author=Mark link=topic=3414.msg41020#msg41020 date=1547367488]
      I am sorry you don't see Christ as the immortal, I pray that he who is only able to show any of us his truth to his most glorious word  God when he was in the days of his flesh will open yours, mine and everyone's eyes to whomsoever he chooses according to his will.

      God bless

      Mark

      I appreciate your input. Ibelieve t he Christ Laid down His Life for me. Came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren. Was Tempted "in all ways" as His Brethren.

      Stop repeating the same line over and over again as if that answers any questions or enlightens anyone on your contradictory positions. Good you believe Christ Laid down His Life for you and came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren and was tempted in all ways as His Brethren. So does everyone else. That doesn't prove your doctrine not heretical, nor does it address any of the very important scriptures that at least 10 people have asked witnessed to you that show your idea contradictory to the biblical text.   


      Quote
      Man is not immortal, Jesus and His Word from the very beginning says He came as a man.

      Just the latest in your daily contradictions. Jesus is immortal, He was in the form of God before he took on the form of man. Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus created the world. He was in the wilderness with the children of Israel. He is the first and the last. He said he would raise up his body and you say God raised it up. He said he and God were one. These are not things one says of a mortal unless they are a heretic to the Christian faith. So I don't know what religion you come from, but the religion you come with is false and is not Christian. So why are you here in a Christian forum? 
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Studyman on January 15, 2019, 11:35:58 AM


      Quote
      Stop repeating the same line over and over again as if that answers any questions or enlightens anyone on your contradictory positions. Good you believe Christ Laid down His Life for you and came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren and was tempted in all ways as His Brethren. So does everyone else. That doesn't prove your doctrine not heretical, nor does it address any of the very important scriptures that at least 10 people have asked witnessed to you that show your idea contradictory to the biblical text.   

      I have addressed the few scriptures they use to promote the religion which believes God didn't come to earth as a mortal man. You can disagree with my posts, but it is dishonest to say I have not answered questions posed in this discussion. You seem so filled with anger.

      Quote
      Man is not immortal, Jesus and His Word from the very beginning says He came as a man.

      Just the latest in your daily contradictions. Jesus is immortal, He was in the form of God before he took on the form of man. Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus created the world. He was in the wilderness with the children of Israel. He is the first and the last. He said he would raise up his body and you say God raised it up. He said he and God were one. These are not things one says of a mortal unless they are a heretic to the Christian faith. So I don't know what religion you come from, but the religion you come with is false and is not Christian. So why are you here in a Christian forum?

      As I have said many times, the Great I AM, the God of Abraham, the creator of God's Commandments did come to earth as a man. He said He laid down His life for me, but many, who come in His Name, preach He was immortal. He said His Father in Heaven gave Him power over Flesh, many preach He overcame by His own Power. I have posted volumes of His Own Word's telling us where His Power came from, who He relied on for help, who HE said gave Him power. And you have completely ignore them all. Why would a person do this?

      But the greatest evidence against the popular preaching that the God of Abraham didn't come to earth as a man in all things like unto His Brethren is the Biblical fact that He died. I know "many" don't really believe He really died. They preach to anyone who will listen that He was immortal. So He can't die. That His death, His birth, the Temptations He endured, was only for show. That He really didn't lay down His Life, He really didn't risk anything for His People. I reject this belief, not only because it assaults God's Character, but also because the Scriptures are clear, He came in the Flesh, not in immortality.

      The scriptures said He died. And what was Risen was not the same Body that died, just as when Abraham and Joshua are risen, their risen Body will not be the same one that died. The Jesus that can be tortured died and was raised in a Body that can not be tortured. The Jesus that died is gone, He died, and was raised from the dead and was given a Body that can never die again, can not bleed to death, can not fear. This Jesus will come again in His New Glory, and when He comes the second time, He won't be pushed around by the religions of the land like He was the first time.

      It is my understanding that this is a forum where humans discuss religious doctrines. My understanding of God comes from His Word. The questions I ask are valid. The word's that direct my thoughts are God's. If you want to engage in a conversation about God's Word, please do. That is what this forum is about, at least that's what it says.









      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Reformer on January 15, 2019, 12:20:53 PM
      I have addressed the few scriptures they use to promote the religion which believes God didn't come to earth as a mortal man. You can disagree with my posts, but it is dishonest to say I have not answered questions posed in this discussion.

      You just can't help being dishonest, can you? You just love playing these dishonest games, and some love giving you a platform to do it. For the last time, God did come to earth as fully a mortal man, and fully as immortal God. Or else he couldn't have died. So stop with the distortions or don't call yourself Christian.

       Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
       9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
       10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
       11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

      That's God's word that you reject as true, not mine. In Christ dwells the full Godhead Bodily. You can twist the word all you want, it is the same yesterday, today and forever.


      Quote
      You seem so filled with anger.

      You seem so filled with contempt for the historical, bible believing Christianity.


      Quote
      As I have said many times, the Great I AM, the God of Abraham, the creator of God's Commandments did come to earth as a man.

      And yet you continually postulate that though God came to earth as a man, he was no longer God? Then how did God come to earth? Did he come as someone else? That makes no sense. As Tony explained, if it was someone else, then it wasn't God who came to earth and your contradictions come full circle.  Either God came to earth as a man, or God didn't come to earth as a man, he sent someone else. Which is it? You can't contradictorily have it both ways. Your doctrine is a ball of confusion, which is why no one can logically agree with you.


      Quote
      I know "many" don't really believe He really died. They preach to anyone who will listen that He was immortal

      Another mischaracterization or deliberate lie. We all believe that he died as fully man, and we all believe he was brought back from the dead as fully God. No man could have taken on the sins of the whole world, suffered death for them, and then been raised himself up from that death as he clearly prophesied, to again return to the glory HE had with the father before the world began. Your problem is #1., you don't listen, #2., you ignore our testimony to scripture instead of harmonizing it with the ones you cherry-pick, and #3., you handle the scriptures deceitfully as your many many mischaracterizations and straw men prove.
      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Studyman on January 15, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
      I have addressed the few scriptures they use to promote the religion which believes God didn't come to earth as a mortal man. You can disagree with my posts, but it is dishonest to say I have not answered questions posed in this discussion.

      You just can't help being dishonest, can you? You just love playing these dishonest games, and some love giving you a platform to do it. For the last time, God did come to earth as fully a mortal man, and fully as immortal God. Or else he couldn't have died. So stop with the distortions or don't call yourself Christian.

       Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
       9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
       10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
       11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

      That's God's word that you reject as true, not mine. In Christ dwells the full Godhead Bodily. You can twist the word all you want, it is the same yesterday, today and forever.


      Quote
      You seem so filled with anger.

      You seem so filled with contempt for the historical, bible believing Christianity.


      Quote
      As I have said many times, the Great I AM, the God of Abraham, the creator of God's Commandments did come to earth as a man.

      And yet you continually postulate that though God came to earth as a man, he was no longer God? Then how did God come to earth? Did he come as someone else? That makes no sense. As Tony explained, if it was someone else, then it wasn't God who came to earth and your contradictions come full circle.  Either God came to earth as a man, or God didn't come to earth as a man, he sent someone else. Which is it? You can't contradictorily have it both ways. Your doctrine is a ball of confusion, which is why no one can logically agree with you.


      Quote
      I know "many" don't really believe He really died. They preach to anyone who will listen that He was immortal

      Another mischaracterization or deliberate lie. We all believe that he died as fully man, and we all believe he was brought back from the dead as fully God. No man could have taken on the sins of the whole world, suffered death for them, and then been raised himself up from that death as he clearly prophesied, to again return to the glory HE had with the father before the world began. Your problem is #1., you don't listen, #2., you ignore our testimony to scripture instead of harmonizing it with the ones you cherry-pick, and #3., you handle the scriptures deceitfully as your many many mischaracterizations and straw men prove.

      Thank you again for another spirit filled reply.

      John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, (does this include His own Flesh in your religion?) that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

      John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

      Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

      Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

      Matt. 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

      53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

      Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

      Luke 12:30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

      Jesus knew where His Power came from even if you don't. You preach He raised Himself by His own Power. He said point blank that as a man, His power came from God the Father which wasn't on earth, but in Heaven. You preach Jesus raised Himself from the dead by His own Power.

      Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

      Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

      Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

      Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

      I could go on and on and on. God the Father, who gave the man Jesus all His Power, is the one who raised Him, the mortal Jesus, from the Dead. Why did God the father have to Raise Him? Because He, God the Son, the creator of all things, came to earth as a man, not as 100% God as you preach.

      I know you can not accept this, but there may be some who are reading along which may understand what the scriptures say about Him. It is to them that I am writing.

      Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

      8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

      9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

      Why did Jesus, 100% man, 100% God. Pray to His Father who can save Him from the Dead? You said He was both immortal, and mortal.

      I get my understanding by considering ALL God's Word's, not just the two or three scriptures you keep repeating to prove Jesus was both mortal and immortal.

      Not only is it foolishness to preach, it doesn't line up with the rest of the Scriptures which describe Him.

      So I know what the religious franchises of the land preach about Him, I just see the scriptures painting a different story. Isn't this a place to test and debate the religious doctrines of the land?

      you shouldn't be so angry and hateful, rather, show me in the Word's of God where my understanding is wrong. Not with one verse you may believe makes all other scripture void, but as Jesus my Savior says, We are to "Live by every Word of God".
















      Title: Re: Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God
      Post by: Studyman on January 20, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
      Quote
      author=Robert Powell link=topic=3414.msg40840#msg40840 date=1545611049]
      Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
       
      1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes   
      For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

      I would have spent time commenting on all your reply, but most of the scriptures you posted, teach against your own doctrine. I will just go with your first verse you use to promote the ancient religious doctrine that God came to earth as "Fully God".


      There is one God. As Jesus taught.

      John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

      2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

      And this one God gave the Man Jesus all His Power. Jesus didn't give Himself this Power as you preach He was Fully God and Fully man. He says His Power came from His Father in Heaven, not on earth.

      3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

      Just as the verse you posted. God the Son became a man and when He was found as a man, He humbled Himself to His Father.

      Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

      Fully God became a man, He didn't come to earth as Fully God, He came in the Flesh.

      9 Wherefore (Because He became obedient) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

      He became the Mediator between God the Father who is in heaven, and all mankind. He accomplished this as "Fully Man", not as "Fully God".

      So we have God the Father and God the Son who became a mortal man who humbled Himself to His Father and became obedient unto death. For this reason, God the Father gave His Son, who became mortal man, immortality. Just as Jesus said.

      "2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

      The wide spread ancient religious tradition that Jesus came to earth as "Fully God" and that He received His Power from His own immortal existence, that He never really became a mortal man, is popular no doubt and has been a foundation of the religions of the land ever since the advent of the Catholic Church. But as the verse you posted clearly says.

      "There is one God, and one mediator between God and Man, and that is the Man Jesus, who "BECAUSE" of His faith in His Father, was given great Glory and a Title and Name above all names.. He became the First "Fully Human" to enter God's Kingdom, thus the name "Firstfruit".

      God the Son, the God of Abraham, came to earth as mortal man, He laid down His Life for us, humbled Himself to God the Father and for this reason was given Power over ALL FLESH, including His Own.

      The preaching that God came to earth as "Fully God" can not be supported using all of God's Words.

      Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

      He was not Fully God, He trusted "fully God", He prayed to "Fully God", and ":Fully God" Heard Him. But in the days of His Flesh, there was Jesus the Man, and God the Father.


      8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

      And even though He were God the Son, who created all things, yet God the Father sent Him to earth, not as "Fully God" as you and "many" who come in Christ's Name preach, but as "Fully Man", in all things unto His Brethren.

      9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

      Fully God is already perfect, but God the Son didn't come to earth as "Fully God", He came as "Fully Man". So like His Brethren, He was "MADE" Perfect by the things He suffered. And He "Became" the Author, and Mediator between God the Father, the only "True God" as Jesus described in John 17, and mankind.


      ALL the Scriptures you posted confirm these truths and actually condemn the popular teaching in the religions of the land that Jesus wasn't a mortal man, rather, He came to earth as "Fully God".

      Moses knew Jesus was a mortal man.

      Duet. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

      Isaiah knew God became mortal man.

      Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

      Peter knew by what Power Jesus was raised from the Dead.

      Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

       Paul knew whose Power raised up the Man Jesus from the dead.

      Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

      Eph. 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


      So then by preaching against these scriptures and spreading the religious doctrine that Jesus didn't overcome sin and temptations by relying on His Father, and Humbling Himself to His Father, but because He was Fully God, you are eliminating His Great Faith. Ridiculing His Great Achievement and Sacrifice by preaching He didn't risk anything for His brethren. That the temptations He endured was a fraud because "Fully God" can not be tempted. That His Death as a show, Hollywood, because "Fully God" can't die. We are warned about this.

      1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

      2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


      I mean no disrespect to you personally. We are all influenced by the religions of the land, just like Abraham was, and Jesus Himself. This is why Jesus said: "Man, (including Him as His Life showed) shall Live By Every Word of God".

      I would implore you to not just believe every religious tradition we are born into, but to do the study yourself, not to prove a religious doctrine, but to prove what the Word of God says about things.