The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Harold on December 02, 2018, 08:56:04 AM

Title: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Harold on December 02, 2018, 08:56:04 AM
I was just wondering during this season I' hearing a lot about Hanukkah and I plead ignorance.  What does Hanukkah or Chanukah commemorate for the Jews as far as Christians are concerned? Is it a old testament ceremony like the feast of Sukkoth or Tabernacles? Does anyone know?
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Sojourner on December 02, 2018, 01:19:03 PM
I don't think Hanukkah is a ceremonial law made by God in the Old Testament, I think it is a Jewish tradition that has been passed down through the ages. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2018, 05:21:57 AM
The Feast of Dedication commemorates the re-dedication of the Second Temple following the Maccabean Revolt.  Jesus did everything the Jews did, because he was a Jew. So he celebrated with them as they were his people.

Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Rich Aikers on December 04, 2018, 06:22:41 AM
I was just wondering during this season I' hearing a lot about Hanukkah and I plead ignorance.  What does Hanukkah or Chanukah commemorate for the Jews as far as Christians are concerned? Is it a old testament ceremony like the feast of Sukkoth or Tabernacles? Does anyone know?

Is it a old testament ceremony like the feast of Sukkoth or Tabernacles? Yes and No. Yes, it is a Old Testament Ceremony in Scripture. No, it is not the Hanukkah  celebration that Jewish people celebrate today. That has nothing to do with the bible.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Rich Aikers on December 04, 2018, 06:24:03 AM
The Feast of Dedication commemorates the re-dedication of the Second Temple following the Maccabean Revolt.  Jesus did everything the Jews did

Incorrect. Jesus followed the biblical ceremonies, not the unbiblical ones.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Theo on December 05, 2018, 03:13:10 AM
Hey Guys,
   I know some Jewish Christians and they say that Hanukkah is not a true Old Testament ceremony as celebrated today. They say it is a tradition that started after around 168 B.C. These Jewish Christians only celebrate biblical holidays from the scriptures, like the feast of Passover, sukkot, dedication and such. They said that they do not consider Maccabees, from which this celebration originates,  sacred scripture. So it is not a God authored celebration.

According to them, this Jewish holiday commemorates the rededication during the second century B.C. when it is said that the Jews rose up against their Greek-Syrian oppressors in the Maccabean Revolt. According to legend and some ancient sources, Antiochus IV Epiphanes outlawed the Jewish religion and ordered the Jews to worship Greek gods. In 168 B.C., his soldiers descended upon Jerusalem, massacring thousands of people and desecrating the citys holy Second Temple by erecting an altar to Zeus and sacrificing pigs within its sacred walls. There was also a great miracle seen. None of this is in scripture so they assert that it cannot be biblical.

I would tend to agree since the bible alone is our authority on biblical ceremonies and feasts.

Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Halle on December 05, 2018, 07:03:48 AM
In 168 B.C., his soldiers descended upon Jerusalem, massacring thousands of people and desecrating the citys holy Second Temple by erecting an altar to Zeus and sacrificing pigs within its sacred walls. There was also a great miracle seen. None of this is in scripture so they assert that it cannot be biblical.

What miracle is alleged? And if it is not in scripture, how is it relevant to Christian apologetics, the Old Testament commemorations, Judeo-Christian observances or even recognition as any part of the truth?   )Bible-Red(
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: aquatic on December 05, 2018, 05:16:25 PM
Id always thought it was a national tradition, much like Thanksgiving is a United States tradition. Not really a big deal.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Dan on December 06, 2018, 12:39:05 AM
What miracle is alleged?

Halle. It's not alleged, it actually took place and the Jews at the time saw and testified to it. Do you think the Jewish people would lie about such a thing?

So once again this smacks of amillennial anti-semitism when you won't even believe history when Jewish people write it. You people did the same thing with the Jewish historian Josephus. You are always attacking Jewish sources of history. You need to stop that because judgment awaits those who attack Israel. 
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Dan on December 06, 2018, 12:41:33 AM
Id always thought it was a national tradition, much like Thanksgiving is a United States tradition. Not really a big deal.

It's a big deal to them. Thanksgiving wasn't accompanied by miracles. It's not the same, it's the preeminence of the holy people Israel.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: aquatic on December 06, 2018, 02:21:20 AM
Thanksgiving wasn't accompanied by miracles.

Actually, it did.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Robert Powell on December 07, 2018, 04:13:41 AM
What miracle is alleged?

It's not in scripture so the miracle is "alleged." It is that they found a cruise of oil that could only last a day, and it burned for eight days. After a year of enduring the victory, Chanukah was installed to commemorate this as a permanent fixture in Jewish lives. This has nothing to do with inspired scripture. If this was God breathed, that would mean that God inspired another religious ceremony long after the old Testament was completed. Here's when the Jewish talmud says it was instituted.

"On the following year, they established these [eight days] as days of festivity and praise and thanksgiving to G-d.
Talmud, Shabbat 21b"

I think that would be untenable as far as God inspired ceremonies go. One because Maccabee is not inspired and so should not be consulted for matters of biblical history or Old Testament practices that are inspired of God. Christians rightly don't celebrate this.


Quote
And if it is not in scripture, how is it relevant to Christian apologetics, the Old Testament commemorations, Judeo-Christian observances or even recognition as any part of the truth?   )Bible-Red(

It's not.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Dryfus on December 08, 2018, 01:14:28 AM
The Bible speaks about the Feast of Dedication in the book of John.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Tony Warren on December 08, 2018, 04:11:33 AM
>>>
What miracle is alleged?

Halle. It's not alleged, it actually took place
<<<[/size][/color]

...Allegedly it did!

You weren't there to witness it, and neither was I or Halle or anyone else living today, and it's not recorded on the pages of God's holy inspired word. And so it must be alleged. ...like the Joseph of Cupertino miracle, the Incorruptible Corpses miracle, the Lourdes miracle or the miracle of the sun in 1917. All alleged because they are not proven by God, Scripture or Prophet. This is called faith in the words of men, not substantive divine proof. Like the miracle of the healed cripple man in the Manila Araneta Coliseum Revival in 2008 with 13,000 Christians watching. ...alleged!

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Tony Warren on December 08, 2018, 04:28:20 AM
>>>
The Bible speaks about the Feast of Dedication in the book of John.
<<<

Yes it absolutely does. What it doesn't speak about is the Feast of Maccabees, the rededication of the Temple in 165 BC by the Maccabees after its desecration by the Syrians. This is what the Jewish people today celebrate as Hanukkah. ...so despite what commentaries, theologians, historians and sundry expositors will tell you, it was a biblical chanukkah or dedication rather than the ole to the triumphs of Maccabees.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Tony Warren on December 08, 2018, 05:57:59 AM
>>>
Is it a old testament ceremony like the feast of Sukkoth or Tabernacles? Yes and No.

Yes, it is a Old Testament Ceremony in Scripture. No, it is not the Hanukkah  celebration that Jewish people celebrate today. That has nothing to do with the bible.
<<<

Correct! Actually [chanukkah] (pronounced Hanukkah) is mentioned in the Old Testament scriptures, but God's inspired use of the term has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the commemoration of 165 B.C., which is the rededication or Feast of Maccabees that the Jewish people often celebrate in our time. Nor is the word of God speaking about the modern story of this celebration of chanukkah in the book of John.

John 10:22

That was the feast of Dedication of the altar for the Temple, and had nothing whatsoever to do with abominations of the Syrians around B.C. 165, or the victory of Maccabees. It (like all Biblical feasts) pointed to Christ, the true sacrifice of Temple of the Lord. Like so many other things, most of the Jewish people missed its import as foundational.

2nd Chronicles 7:8-12

Even the context of John mentions the connection to the completion of Solomon's Temple. The Feast of [chanukkah] or dedication in John is in fact a Biblical festival that pointed to the Messiah. But it celebrated the dedication of the sacrifice of Christ on the Altar, and was also used in Scripture to celebration the completion of the Holy Temple that Solomon built. This also "representing" Christ the beginning and end of this true Holy Temple. This feast of Dedication (like all Biblical feasts) ultimately points to the completion of body of Christ (The Holy Temple) in His sacrifice for sin on the altar. Again, Biblical [chanukkah] has nothing whatsoever to do with the Jewish extrabiblical tradition, the non-inspired history of Greeks desolating a Temple around 165 B.C., Judas Maccabee or the uninspired history or miracle reported in the book of Maccabees. God would "NEVER" use such a book to identify or prove Scripture.

It's my "opinion" that this view (that is very popular with commentators and theologians) is on a par with the view by theologians that the prophesy of the desolation of the Temple described in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. It also is believed proved by the very same Jewish secular historian Flavius Josephus and other Jewish historians. In other words, again Scripture interpreted by secular History "instead of by Scripture."  This is that same error of looking to Jewish tradition to define and even interpret God's word.

For the record, there is not one single word in the inspired text of John chapter 10, that says or implies that the Feast of Dedication referred to, was commemorating the re-dedication of the Temple in 165 B.C. by the Maccabees after its desecration by the Syrians. This idea is all assumption, presumption and speculation by theologians and commentators alike. This is derived mainly from Josephus and the stories read in the book of Maccabbees, which even the Jewish scholars do not accept as inspired scripture. By contrast, when we interpret scripture by Scripture, we actually find that the word [chanukkah] is in fact actually mentioned 7 times in the Bible. And it always points to what I said before, the altar and body of Christ. Even in the context of John we see reference to Solomon. So [chanukkah] is Biblical, but the modern day celebration of it as a ole to Judas maccabees is not. Below are listed the 7 places the word [chanukkah] is listed.

1. Nu 7:10
And the princes offered for dedicating of the altar in the day that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.

2. Nu 7:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, They shall offer their offering, each prince on his day, for the dedicating of the altar.
 
3. Nu 7:84
This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

4.  Nu 7:88
And all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace offerings were twenty and four bullocks, the rams sixty, the he goats sixty, the lambs of the first year sixty. This was the dedication of the altar, after that it was anointed.

5. 2Ch 7:9
And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days.

6. Ne 12:27
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to keep the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, psalteries, and with harps.

7. Ps 30:1
 Ps 30:1 A Psalm and Song at the dedication of the house of David. I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.


All these passages concerning the [chanukkah] or dedication point to Christ as the anointed Holy One in whom God's house would be completed. None point to 165 B.C., the Maccabees, or the cleansing after the Syrians desolation of a temple. The modern day celebration of this dedication is a "corruption" of the original, which illustrates exactly what [chanukkah] pointed to.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: David Knoles on December 08, 2018, 09:16:48 AM
 ::) Oh Brother! I hate to break it to you "mr. Know it all."  And I mean no disrespect, but no one is going to listen to your opinions over the great Jewish historians, the great Christian theologians or the great commentaries. I don't buy your arguments for one bit.  You are misleading a lot of people in teaching that we can't trust the historians who are a lot smarter than you. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: David Knoles on December 08, 2018, 09:19:44 AM
So once again this smacks of amillennial anti-semitism when you won't even believe history when Jewish people write it. You people did the same thing with the Jewish historian Josephus. You are always attacking Jewish sources of history. You need to stop that because judgment awaits those who attack Israel.

 )GoodPopst(
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Reformer on December 08, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
Interesting Tony, Thanks!
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Peng Bao on December 09, 2018, 03:48:18 AM
Oh Brother! I hate to break it to you "mr. Know it all." 

Those who can do, those who can't teach - those who can't do or teach complain about those who can.

Proverb 11:12 "He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace."

Proverb 17:28"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Reformer on December 09, 2018, 05:32:10 AM
 )GoodPopst( )Goodpoint(  And all God's people said AMEN!
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: George on December 09, 2018, 08:04:52 AM
no one is going to listen to your opinions over the great Jewish historians, the great Christian theologians or the great commentaries. I don't buy your arguments for one bit.

 )iagree(
 The feast was kept in honor of the renovation and purification of the temple in the year B.C. 164, after it had been desecrated by the Syrians under Antiochus Epiphanes (1 Macc. 1:20-60; 4:36-59; 2 Macc. 10:1-8; Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, 12.6.6,7).
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Red on December 09, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
So once again this smacks of amillennial anti-semitism when you won't even believe history when Jewish people write it. You people did the same thing with the Jewish historian Josephus. You are always attacking Jewish sources of history. .
I only believe the Jews who wrote under the inspiration of God, all others I judge by holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Ghost, who NEVER inserted their own private thoughts into the word of God. All historians are biased in favor of their own personal agendas.
Quote from: Dan Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 12:39:05 AM
You need to stop that because judgment awaits those who attack Israel
I agree if you are speaking of a TRUE Israelite, one that is born of the Spirit of God~Romans 2:28,29....... The true children of Abraham to whom were the promises of eternal life given to according to God's faithfulness secured by two immutable acts of God....his own promises and oath.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Rich Aikers on December 09, 2018, 10:24:27 AM
The feast was kept in honor of the renovation and purification of the temple in the year B.C. 164, after it had been desecrated by the Syrians under Antiochus Epiphanes (1 Macc. 1:20-60; 4:36-59; 2 Macc. 10:1-8; Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, 12.6.6,7).

Says who?  Oh yes, I see your referencing the books of Josephus annd Macebees. These are two really un-authoritative books for the true Christians. See this is a point that you and the vaunted illuminati pedantics who are looking to the historians for truth always seem to miss about us. Our authority is the bible.

As per your proof, since when did the book of Maccebees and the book of Josephus become authoritative to Christians? These great theologians and Jewish historians you adore became authorities to you because you forgot the principles of Sola Scriptura. Unfortunately, a lot of otherwise good Christians have surrendered to this transgression also. Christian views, beliefs, ideas and practices should be founded upon scripture alone, not on secular historical writings that attempt to define scripture.

George, you lack the understanding of our principle that scripture alone is the authority of church and practice. Not the Jewish historians, not men, not professors, not commentaries, and certainly not Calvanist, Baptist, Evangelical and Dispensational authors. The Bible defines the Bible. So it alone defines the Feast of Dedication, not Josephus. It alone defines Israel. It alone defines the Abomination of Desolation. It alone defines the Holy Temple, Jerusalem and the Millennial reign. It alone defines who are Jews. And it alone defines what anti-semitism or anti-Jewish is.

Tony Warren and company already understands that, you may never understand that. But we hope you will.

Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Scotty on December 12, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
Tony. I've never heard this before. Thanks for the education. Never knew Hanukkah was actually a word based in scripture.
Title: Re: What Does Hanukkah or Chanukah Commemorate
Post by: Dan on December 13, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
Tony. I've never heard this before. Thanks for the education. Never knew Hanukkah was actually a word based in scripture.

Just a thought, but did you ever consider you never heard this before because it's personal Tony's opinion and not based on the history of Israel and the learned scholars who have studied this history for countless years? You really should investigate the history of Hanukkah told by the people who lived it and not Amillennialists who attempt to replace Israel at every turn.

https://www.history.com/topics/holidays/hanukkah

Please, for your sake consider the popular and long time validity of Premillennialism because it is based on the literal facts, both in scripture and history.