The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Erik Diamond on October 13, 2018, 05:18:14 PM

Title: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 13, 2018, 05:18:14 PM

So you don't go to church now? That would explain why you are so anti church.

We are not against the True Church of Christ. We are against Babylon the Great which is the congregations that are falling into apostasy where they teach free will and dispensationalism, and tolerates homosexuality, allowing divorce and remarriage, women in position, holding fall festival with trunk and treat,  wearing football jersey on super bowl Sunday, the lies of propersity gospels, or spiritual experience with Holy Laughter, etc.  We are against the church that is become LIKE the world in name of "fun", "Hip", "end time revival", etc.

You are offended and angry by the fact that God people are standing up, depart out of the church, and prophesy that the church you are in is falling.

Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Gerry on October 13, 2018, 07:56:01 PM
Just to clarify, we may agree with Erik on Halloween, but all of us don't agree with Erik on coming out of all churches, just false churches.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Alex Rowland on October 15, 2018, 07:00:50 AM
Reformation day is a great alternative to this ode to the Devil, Witches and demons. What good can there be in a day of celebration of all that is evil.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 15, 2018, 08:31:36 AM
Quote
Can Christians Participate In Halloween?
They can, but they SHOULD NOT.

Even secular history gives this testimony: Abbreviated History and Customs of Halloween~Oxford English Dictionary (Second Edition)
"Hallowe'en. The eve of All Hallows' or All Saints' Day celebrated the last night of October. In the Old Celtic calendar the year began on November 1, so that the last evening of October was 'old years' night', the night of all the witches, which the Church transformed into the Eve of All Saints."

Encyclopedia Britannica (14th Edition)
"Hallowe'en or All Hallows Eve, the name given to Oct. 31, as the vigil of Hallowmas or All Saints' Day, now chiefly known as the eve of the Christian festival. It long antedates Christianity. The two chief characteristics of ancient Hallowe'en were the lighting of bonfires and the belief that this is the one night in the year during which ghosts and witches are most likely to wander abroad. History shows that the main celebrations of Hallowe'en were purely Druidical, and this is further proved by the fact that in parts of Ireland Oct. 31 is still known as Oidhche Shamhna, 'Vigil of Sama'. This is directly connected with the Druidic belief in the calling together of certain wicked souls on Hallowe'en by Saman, lord of death."

World Book Encyclopedia (1959 Edition)
"The Druids, an order of priests in ancient Gaul and Britain, believed that on Halloween, ghosts, spirits, fairies, witches, and elves came out to harm people. They thought the cat was sacred and believed that cats had once been human beings but were changed as a punishment for evil deeds. From these Druidic beliefs come the present-day use of witches, ghosts, and cats in Halloween festivities."

Halloween Through Twenty Centuries (by Ralph Linton)
"The American celebration rests upon Scottish and Irish folk customs which can be traced in direct line from pre-Christian times. Although Halloween has become a night of rollicking fun, superstitious spells, and eerie games which people take only half seriously, its beginnings were quite otherwise. The earliest Halloween celebrations were held by the Druids in honor of Samhain, Lord of the dead, whose festival fell on November 1."

World Book Encyclopedia (Quoted in the Atlanta Journal on 10/16/1977)
"It was the Celts who chose the date of October 31 as their new year's Eve and who originally intended it as a celebration of everything wicked, evil and dead. Also during their celebration they would gather around a community bonfire and offer as sacrifice their animals, their crops, and sometime themselves. And wearing costumes made from the heads and skins of other animals, they would also tell one another's fortunes for the coming year.

"The celebration remained much the same after the Romans conquered the Celts around 43 A.D. The Romans did, however, add a ceremony honoring their goddess of fruit and trees and thus the association with apples and the custom of bobbing for them."

World Book Encyclopedia (1959 Edition)
"In the A.D. 800's the church established All Saints Day on November 1 so that the people could continue a festival they had celebrated before becoming Christians. The mass that was said on this day was called Allhallowmas. The evening before became known as All Hallow e'ven or Halloween…. It means hallowed or holy evening."

World Book Encyclopedia (1959 Edition)
"Jack-O'-Lanterns were named for a man called Jack, who could not enter heaven or hell. As a result, he was doomed to wander in darkness with his lantern until Judgment Day."

Compton's Encyclopedia (1978 Edition)
"Customs and superstitions gathered through the ages go into our celebration of Halloween, or 'Holy Eve', on October 31. The day is so named because it is the even of the festival of All Saints, but many of the beliefs and observances connected with it arose long before the Christian Era, in the autumn festivals of pagan peoples…. Even after November 1 became a Christian feast day, honoring all saints, the peasants clung to the old pagan beliefs and customs that had grown up about Halloween…. Our Halloween celebrations today keep many of these early customs unchanged."
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 15, 2018, 08:40:19 AM
just to clarify, we may agree with Erik on Halloween, but all of us don't agree with Erik on coming out of all churches, just false churches.
Why not? I came out of organized religion in 1978 never to return again! The man of sin sits and rules therein, while the true worshippers of God are cast out as evil, and divisive~when all they are doing is standing upon the testimony of God, and reject all extra-biblical interpretations of the scriptures.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Gerry on October 15, 2018, 09:29:42 AM
just to clarify, we may agree with Erik on Halloween, but all of us don't agree with Erik on coming out of all churches, just false churches.
Why not? I came out of organized religion in 1978 never to return again!

 )offtopic(  but :o WOW!   That's certainly unorthodox, cultish and extreme. I don't think Tony, Erik or anyone here teaches that all the churches way back in 1978 were dead. I would be curious to know if there is a single person here beside you who believes that.

 )anyone(

 I think maybe your confusing your problem in your church or organized religion back in 1978 with all churches worldwide being fallen in 1978. First, there is no way you could know that in 1978 unless you visited all of them or tested their doctrines, which you didn't. Second, in 1978 there were faithful, bible believing and God fearing churches, which I know for a fact. Many were in the throws of apostasy, but there were some. Third, why do you have a problem with my stating the fact that not all here (including Tony Warren) believe every single church in the world is fallen? I don't know that for a fact, and neither do you. You state what you believe as if it is a fact from God.

It's your belief in 1978 all churches were dead, not a fact. And this belief is based on what in 1978?  You never came to my church in 1978 so you have no real judicial or logical basis to say that. For the record, the church I went to didn't fall into apostasy until the 90's.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 15, 2018, 10:35:00 AM
I don't think Tony, Erik or anyone here teaches that all the churches way back in 1978 were dead. I would be curious to know if there is a single person here beside you who believes that.
I do not follow Tony, even though I respect and rejoice in much of what he teaches, but not all, just as he does not with me. I truly do not know Erik, just as he does not know me.

I live in the bible belt of the world, right on the buckle of the belt. I visited many of them before making my decision. Every man must give an account of himself to God, not men~and you are not my judge and I'm not yours. I DO NOT JUDGE every person in the churches I refuse to attend~even if they attend RCC, etc. Yet I will not worship with men who have no regards for the truth, especially the gospel of Jesus Christ, how sinners are justified FREELY by the faith/obedience and righteousness of Christ ALONE~if they miss that truth, then they have another gospel that saints should avoid and expose.

You are right, this is off of the topic, and I will stop.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Gerry on October 15, 2018, 10:59:47 AM
I live in the bible belt of the world, right on the buckle of the belt. I visited many of them before making my decision.

Sorry but visiting many churches in the Bible belt back in 1987 does not equate to all churches or all organized religions were dead in the year 1987. That's just not logical or biblical thinking. You are right that you can believe whatever you want, some people believe we came from outer space but that doesn't mean it's a well founded belief, or even justifiable. Just means someone said it.


Quote
You are right, this is off of the topic, and I will stop.

Yup, me too.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Kira on October 15, 2018, 11:16:08 AM
Moderator, could you please split this off into another topic. I would like to post with Gerry on this topic. Thanks if you can.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Johnny on October 15, 2018, 12:50:03 PM
I live in the bible belt of the world, right on the buckle of the belt. I visited many of them before making my decision.

Sorry but visiting many churches in the Bible belt back in 1987 does not equate to all churches or all organized religions were dead in the year 1987. That's just not logical or biblical thinking. You are right that you can believe whatever you want, some people believe we came from outer space but that doesn't mean it's a well founded belief, or even justifiable. Just means someone said it.

I hope he's the only one here who believes that, or else I will be thinking about leaving the forum. That is ridiculous, and over 40 years ago. 40 Years Ago! Has he not read of all the great Pastors of the 80s who I'm sad to say are a thing of the past? I didn't leave my church until 2015 when they changed pastors and the new one changed the bylaws and started promoting liberal views about the bible.  My response to Red would be, where is the proof that all religious groups were apostate in the 80s? Doesn't the bible say, prove all things?
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Alex Rowland on October 16, 2018, 03:58:24 AM
The churches were not dead 40 years ago. I don't know that they are all dead now. 
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 16, 2018, 05:59:03 AM
Sorry but visiting many churches in the Bible belt back in 1987 does not equate to all churches or all organized religions were dead in the year 1987. That's just not logical or biblical thinking. You are right that you can believe whatever you want, some people believe we came from outer space but that doesn't mean it's a well founded belief, or even justifiable. Just means someone said it.
Late seventies~but I did not equate what I found here in the Greenville, S.C. area with all churches, I also visited ones from other states, as well. I read multiple authors, etc. I read every article that A.W. Pink wrote in his monthly publication of the "Scripture of Truth"~ He also left organized religion back in the late twenties early thirties NEVER to return again~that was fifty years before I left. I'm convinced that the great tribulation first spoken of by Daniel and enlarged upon by Christ, Paul and John had its early beginning in early 1800's and picked up momentum in the late nineteen century.

Consider: SDA, Mormonism, and the Jehovah Witnesses all begun in the mid-1800 plus or minus, within about a hundred and fifty miles of each other~and then came Pentecostalism in the early twenty century in Los Angles. MULTITUDES of translations begun flooding the marketplaces of this world in and around mid-1800 with the RV leading the way, and from there more than one could count off of his head. Many hundred's of them~take your choice from the  "cotton patch" for ones that practice Sodomy so as not to offend them~after all, it's all about NOT offending their goats. Most, well, just about ALL translations remove the faith OF Jesus Christ, to faith IN Jesus Christ, perverting the gospel preached by the apostle Paul, into another gospel that would be compatible to free-willism, the golden calf of Arminianism.

The great tribulation is STRICTLY spiritual in nature, NOT physical as we should know~and all one needs is spiritual eyes to see and know just how near the Lord's coming is near.  Yes, I agree NO MAN knows the hour, day, or year, YET the handwriting is ON THE WALL for those whose eyes are anointed to see that it IS at hand. I'm heeding the call to come out of Mystery Babylon and its false religion, that I will not be partakers of her evil deeds.

So what if some come out earlier and some later~the godly thing to do is COME OUT.

Some may never come out who are true children of God~I'm not their judge, I must live my own life of faith, and allow others to do the same. I'm convinced that Nicodemus was a regenerate child of God who as far as scriptures reveal to us never left the Pharisees~YET, we see fruits in his life that shows us that he was born again, and even Christ said that what Nicodemus confess, NO MAN COULD unless he was born again. Nicodemus' confession of faith was totally different from other Pharisees~he confess that he KNEW that Jesus had to be of God, for NO man could do what he did except God be with him. The other Pharisees accused him of being devil possess. So, I believe God has his very elect STILL in the churches, but that does not make it right for whatever reason they are still there. And it CERTAINLY does not mean that those who have left are wrong for leaving regardless WHEN they left.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Kira on October 16, 2018, 05:03:05 PM
Sorry but visiting many churches in the Bible belt back in 1987 does not equate to all churches or all organized religions were dead in the year 1987.

Thank you moderator,
  Gerry, I agree. There were many good churches in the 80s and to neglect church worship in the 80s I think was a mistake. It seems some Christians think that there has to be a perfect church before they will attend. There is a difference between a imperfect church and a false church.  I don't think that we can suppose that we should avoid all churches just because we can't find a good one in our immediate area. My view is that the only time we avoid all churches is if we can't find a single one that is biblical within a reasonable driving distance. I'm sorry to say, that that is the situation I am facing. There are nothing but Catholic, Pentecostal and Dispensational churches where I live and I will never attend any of them. But as far as churches elsewhere, I would not be surprised if there were good churches. I come here to get what I am missing in church. Good, sound, biblical teachings and encouragement.



Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Kira on October 16, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
I read every article that A.W. Pink wrote in his monthly publication of the "Scripture of Truth"~ He also left organized religion back in the late twenties early thirties NEVER to return again~that was fifty years before I left.

And you think that was a good idea in the 20s? :o

  Why stop there, why not the 1700s?  That makes no sense.


Quote
Consider: SDA, Mormonism, and the Jehovah Witnesses all begun in the mid-1800 plus or minus,

So that justifies abandoning churches ion the 1800s?  I don't think you are thinking clearly. Should Calvin have abandoned the organized church when he saw the Catholic organization fall into apostasy? Should the Apostle Paul have when he came across apostasy in his day? That is not logical.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 17, 2018, 07:16:06 AM
And you think that was a good idea in the 20s?
Greetings Kira~I was not there and cannot answer that question. I'm an avid reader and have read behind most of the known preachers from Augustine to Luther and Calvin down to our days, and have seen a very steady drop in depth, sobriety of handling the scriptures, especially so since the late eighteenth century, shortly after John Gill and men of his generation. This is my personal observation and I well know that.

Now, was Pink right or wrong? I believe that he was obedient to the call that he received from God. Do I agree with everything the good man taught? no~yet his overall life and teachings were godly, scriptural, and faithful to the light that God had graciously given to him...and that's ALL any of us can do. We all are going to leave this world holding to error, that's part of living in a body of sin and death, yet none of us would ever purposely reject God's word because we just do not like what we read or are hearing~but sad to say, many do.
Quote from: Kira Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 05:11:09 PM
Why stop there, why not the 1700s?  That makes no sense.
I understand your dilemma~but Kira, it was God that said in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; and it was the same apostle who also said:
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 3:1~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come"
Kira, there was a point and time in the NT church age when and where men begin to set up the abomination that God would make desolate at the coming of Jesus Christ~yes, it was without question a very slow process, here a little and there a little to where we are now~and men and women with more light and convictions left sooner than others who had not the same light and convictions, even though they very well could share the same sonship with God, yet slower to react, much like Abraham and Lot, if one needs a comaparison. This has not one thing to do with one being a child of God....I fully understand.
Quote from: Kira Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 05:11:09 PM
Should Calvin have abandoned the organized church when he saw the Catholic organization fall into apostasy?
Kira, that is much different than where we are now. Besides, we meet in homes now, not in the outward professing churches. God's children do not STOP worshipping, only they refuse to be partakers of false doctrines~espically so concerning eschatology, since it affects so many other doctrines~and  the gospel of Jesus Christ, which most are totally ignorant of, and that's a shame when such boast of being Christ's servants.
Quote from: Kira Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 05:11:09 PM
There are nothing but Catholic, Pentecostal and Dispensational churches where I live and I will never attend any of them
Good for you~yet you still love God and retain him in all of your thoughts, and decisions, serving him with a conscience void of offense both toward God and man.  To God be praised.   
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: R. Anspach on October 17, 2018, 11:55:49 AM
And you think that was a good idea in the 20s?
Greetings Kira~I was not there and cannot answer that question.

Yeah but you brought it up. You must have brought it up as a example. I'll add my 2 cents even though no one asked for it. A Christian leaving all churches 90 years ago is not a good example of the righteous justification for anyone to leave the church. You cannot answer the question, but shouldn't you be able to answer the question? Isn't it a pertinent question given our knowledge of the church in the 20s?


Quote
I'm an avid reader and have read behind most of the known preachers from Augustine to Luther and Calvin down to our days,

Augustine wasn't perfect in his teaching, neither Luther or Calvin. But that isn't excuse to abandon the church or assembly of God. Yes, there has been decline even in the 60s, but to believe that justifies abandoning the churches back then is not sound theology.


Quote
Now, was Pink right or wrong? I believe that he was obedient to the call that he received from God.

Was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter of the false doctrine of Dispensationalism or was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter against Dispensationalism? I'm not saying that to condemn him, just to demonstrate that he was not perfect, and his actions are not something anyone should emulate. The question is not if Arthur Pink should ave abandoned the church in the 20s, the question is was that biblically justifiable. Not that he left a church, but that (according to you) he left all churches. I have no reason to disbelieve that, but he was not right in doing so, and this I know. As Kira said, you can believe what you want, but the bible doesn't support that and so neither do I.


Quote
Do I agree with everything the good man taught? no~yet his overall life and teachings were godly, scriptural, and faithful to the light that God had graciously given to him.

As others have said here many times before, errors usually come because Christians are concentrating on man, and not on the bible. Pink shouldn't even be in this conversation, it should be where does the bible teach all churches and organized religions were not of God in the 20s?  Look to the bible, not to other men's actions.

Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 17, 2018, 01:20:38 PM
Quote from: red
I'm convinced that the great tribulation first spoken of by Daniel and enlarged upon by Christ, Paul and John had its early beginning in early 1800's and picked up momentum in the late nineteen century.

Really?

Do you realize that based on Revelation 7 and Revelation 9 and 20, that the great tribulation did not start until God first sealed all of His People, and Satan being loosened from bottomless pit? If you believe this started in early 1800, then salvation expired even before we were born!


Erik
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 17, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Really?

Do you realize that based on Revelation 7 and Revelation 9 and 20, that the great tribulation did not start until God first sealed all of His People, and Satan being loosened from bottomless pit? If you believe this started in early 1800, then salvation expired even before we were born!


Erik
Erik, I only said that the great tribulation had its beginning in the early 1800~actually to a small degree just after the apostles died off, proven by the history of the so-called church fathers~we both know that the mystery of iniquity has been working since the very beginning of time~ But the FULL BLOWN will be the final days of the great tribulation, just before this world comes to an end. We will add~the saved is not referring to regeneration, but PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE of the truth according to:
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Matthew 24:22~"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Salvation in the sense in which our Lord used the word saved, does not have any reference to physical life being saved, or to regeneration, BUT PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, which very few have. Very few were saved during our Lord's day as far as saved in use in the sense in which our Lord used the word in Matthew 24:22, but God will still quicken his elect to spiritual life up until Jesus comes again, but some of them will NOT come to the same level of the truth, and we should not expect that, for it will not happen. If we think all will, then that will open the door for us to judge people that we should not judge. We should not fellowship with those who do not love our Lord and his word, as we understand it, yet we leave judging their hearts to God alone. I'm sure if we were living in the days of Lot's, we would all have unmercifully judged him to be of this world, and not of God.

I will also add this~regeneration is a work of God ALONE, without the means of the will of man, or the will of the flesh. God does not need man in order to regenerate his elect, he does this glorious work BY HIMSELF. So, if you think that during the final days of the church age when the truth will be hard to find, that truth cannot get to them, the scriptures will assure us that WILL NOT in the least hinder God from regenerating his elect since one is born OF GOD apart from ALL MEANS.  God certainly does not need you, me, or ANY MAN to quicken his elect to life.... he does it BY HIMSELF according to his great power~ the SAME power that resurrected Jesus Christ according to Ephesians 1:18-20.
Quote from: Paul
"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 17, 2018, 03:23:16 PM
Quote from: Red
Erik, I only said that the great tribulation had its beginning in the early 1800~actually to a small degree just after the apostles died off, proven by the history of the so-called church fathers. But the FULL BLOWN will be the final days of the great tribulation~and the saved is not referring to regeneration, but PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE of the truth according to:


Sorry, it does not make any sense. Not according to the timing of Two Witnesses' testimony for salvation and their death in Revelation 11.  The Great Tribulation FOR the Elect cannot start until Satan (and his armies of locusts) come out of Bottomless pit and the testimony being finished, (Rev 11:7, Rev 9:1-4, Rev 20:7-8). This only can take place AFTER God finish secured all His Elect which is, of course, SALVATION. After this, there will be no more salvation when no man can work.

Joh 9:4(4)  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

You just got the timing wrong.  You assumed that the great tribulation started with the false establishments like SDA, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. of the 1800's.  I do not believe this is when the abomination of desolation begun.  Instead, the AoD will only be found found within a church that is supposed to be faithful representative of God but now has become apostasy.  The ADA, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons do not qualify. 
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 17, 2018, 03:43:11 PM
Sorry, it does not make any sense. Not according to the timing of Two Witnesses' testimony for salvation and their death in Revelation 11.
Erik I agree that the two witnesses (Jews and Gentiles that make up the NT church) shall indeed be put to death in the sense that their testimony will NO LONGER be accepted as the truth, and they are NOT WELCOME in the CHURCHES who call themselves the Church of Christ/God, etc. Also, since their testimony is rejected, they themselves have fled (left the churches) unto the mountain to worship their God according to his word. Now, you seem to use the word salvation in a broad sense including regeneration, which God DOES NOT use man to regenerate his elect, he does it by himself, period. Please show me where in Revelation 11 where the two servants are used to quicken men to spiritual life~that's NOT our calling, our calling is to preach the word to bring PRACTICAL salvation to the elect, that's all we can do, and no more can we do. Now when the so-called church refuses to hear the two true prophets of God, there is NO HOPE for them to come unto the knowledge of the truth, for they alone bring the truth of God with them.
Quote from: Erik Reply #18 on: Today at 03:23:16 PM
You assumed that the great tribulation started with the false establishments like SDA, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. of the 1800's.  I do not believe this is when the abomination of desolation begun.  Instead, the AoD will only be found found within a church that is supposed to be faithful representative of God but now has become apostasy.  The ADA, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons do not qualify.
Brother, I only use them to show how many false cults arose during that time BECAUSE OF THE CHURCH ITSELF began to decline and left the truths of God, opening the doors for such cults.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 17, 2018, 03:52:50 PM
Augustine wasn't perfect in his teaching, neither Luther or Calvin.
Correct, and neither are you and I.
Quote from: R. Anspach Reply #15 on: Today at 11:55:49
Was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter of the false doctrine of Dispensationalism or was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter against Dispensationalism?
He was not, yet he saw the light and the errors of Dispensationalism and like us was converted from that error~ as so many of us have since we first came to Christ~ A Christian life is one of a long process of conversions, over many years.   
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 17, 2018, 04:00:23 PM
Quote from: Red
Now, you seem to use the word salvation in a broad sense including regeneration, which God DOES NOT use man to regenerate his elect, he does it by himself, period. Please show me where in Revelation 11 are the two servants use to quicken men to spiritual life~that's NOT our calling,


Rev 11:3
(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.God has empowered His servants with the Holy Spirit to bring Salvation (and judgment) to the world. The spirit of God works through His elect.


So yes, it is our calling of the Great Commission until the testimony is finished.When the testimony is finished, God allowed Satan to come out of the bottomless pit and to scatter the power of the Two Witnesses:


Dan 12:7
(7)  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Quote
Brother, I only use them to show how many false cults arose during that time BECAUSE OF THE CHURCH ITSELF began to decline and left the truths of God, opening the doors for such cults.


But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.  Else the testimony of Two Witnesses has already ended at that time long before we were born! I believe that you got the timing of the Great Tribulation incorrect. 
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 17, 2018, 05:18:10 PM
Rev 11:3(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.God has empowered His servants with the Holy Spirit to bring Salvation (and judgment) to the world. The spirit of God works through His elect.
Erik, the church (the very elect) can ONLY bring salvation in a practical sense, NOT in a regenerated sense. I may come back later and give my understanding of how the words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the scriptures.
Quote from: Nehemiah
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Quote from: Erik  Reply #21 on: Today at 04:00:23 PM
But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.
I did NOT say it took place, only is where it is clearly evident "about" when it started. Later....Red
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Melanie on October 18, 2018, 05:27:16 PM
But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.
I did NOT say it took place, only is where it is clearly evident "about" when it started. Later....Red

Hi Red,
  I do not believe that the Great Tribulation period started in the 1800's either. I don't think there is any scriptural precedent for saying that. The examples you gave could happen in any era from 1700s, 1600s or the 1500s. There has always been falling away, that's why the Reformers broke away from the catholic church. But that wasn't the beginning of the great tribulation period either. Let us be reminded about the tenor of the Great Tribulation period.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22"

That surely wasn't the 1800s. From what I read, I don't think the great tribulation period could have started until relatively recently.
Title: Re: When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?
Post by: Red on October 19, 2018, 05:26:10 AM
That surely wasn't the 1800s. From what I read, I don't think the great tribulation period could have started until relatively recently.
Greetings Melanie, I agree that truth and godliness was much more prevalent in the 1800's than now, yet the the bud begin to show itself in the 1800's "until" where we are now, as I see it. I would not fall out with a brother or sister over when they understand the beginning of the great tribulation period, which we both agree that it is spiritual in nature and that it is toward professing Christianity and NOT toward Israel after the flesh. These we would earnestly contend for, not as to when one brother thinks when it may have first begun to start, yet the time for Christ's coming was not at the very door in the 1800's I know very well. 
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Matthew 24:6~"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I understand that Christ is speaking of spiritual wars, not literal, for that we have always had since the very beginning of time. Yet, when we see many things that Christ gave to us in Matthew 24 beginning to come to pass and the time they began then we should be able to know the season as to when it is very near, even at the door~ and that season length could be two or three hundred, or even longer, we just DO NOT the hour and day, that is hidden from us, but for sure it shall be shortened for the elect's sake.

You quoted:
Quote
Matthew 24:21-22~"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "
The word "saved" is used in a practical sense, meaning that unless God shortened those days NO FLESH would be saved with having true knowledge of biblical doctrine, and certainly not of the very days in which Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21. But even more, even the very elect have been to a certain degree affected by the voices of the false prophets that are in the world. God has his very elect in the churches that are in Mystery Babylon, this I would not deny, or the call to come out would be useless to mention by John. I understand Mystery Babylon to be this world with its religion , "and" its commerce, entertainment, etc. The call to come out of her is not limited to its religion only, but to its love of commerce (stock market) and its entertainment, which TRULY is much more harder to separate from than false religion as we all should agree on. The call to come out of her is the very SAME call that the same apostle gave in these scriptures:
Quote from: John the beloved
1st John 2:15-17~"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
This world has much to offer to our flesh by way of its religion, its commerce, and its entertainments~yet God has call us to "come out from among her my people"~those who refuse to come out of her, may very well end up like Lot's wife, BUT God is the judge not me~nevertheless, we should remember Lot's wife and her secret love for the world and what happened to her.