The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: da525382 on May 15, 2018, 02:05:52 PM

Title: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 15, 2018, 02:05:52 PM
What do you say, in defense of Paul, to women who really want nothing to do with Christianity because they essentially hate Paul?  Obviously they view him as a misogynist....
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: aquatic on May 15, 2018, 05:46:51 PM
Paulís words are inspired from God. If women hate Paul, then they hate God.

John 15

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours

Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 15, 2018, 10:59:01 PM
Thank you aquatic....
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Betty on May 17, 2018, 11:09:56 AM
What many people and critics of the apostle Paul fail to realize is that they are reading the bible through the eyes of a modern 21st century perspective, rather than the through the eyes of the 1st century world to which Paul was writing. At the time Paul wrote women were mistreated by men and were pretty much considered cattle or at beast their husband's property.

Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 17, 2018, 12:01:04 PM
Great point, Betty....
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Reformer on May 17, 2018, 03:23:17 PM
What many people and critics of the apostle Paul fail to realize is that they are reading the bible through the eyes of a modern 21st century perspective, rather than the through the eyes of the 1st century world to which Paul was writing.

Not buying it Betty. That's the liberal church's way of looking at things and also of distorting and changing God's laws when they don't suit their purposes. I don't know about you but I believe that God is the author of the Bible. That means it wasn't Paul who was giving his own personal opinions concerning instructions for men and women, it was God. If we don't believe God authored the words of the Bible, then we can't really believe anything in the bible.

Contrary to what you are saying, what many people and critics of the apostle Paul fail to realize is that they are reading the divinely inspired words of God and not the bible through the eyes of a 1st century misogynist. I think it's very disturbing that modern Christians don't understand that because it's basic to sound theology. When you read Exodus, you're not reading Moses' biases, you're reading the word of God. When you read the Psalms, you're not reading David's words of intolerance, you're reading the word of God. And so also when you're reading the New Testament writings, you're not reading the private thoughts of Paul, Peter or John that are not authoritative, you're reading God's word. The liberal church is astonishing to me in their lack of understanding of this fact that all Christians should know.


Quote
At the time Paul wrote women were mistreated by men and were pretty much considered cattle or at beast their husband's property.

A Man in the creation order being ordained by God to be the head of the family is not misogyny. Misogyny is defined as dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. Do you see any evidence in scripture of any of the apostles mistreating women or treating women as cattle? You've fallen into the same trap as the secular world in thinking man's God given headship equals misogyny. What those who are not Christian do regarding women is of no consequence to what Christians do.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

That's Paul teaching us to love our wives as Christ loves the church and gave his life for it. Does that sound like him thinking they should be oppressed, victimized or treated as cattle? Paul teaches respect and honor to women. Just because God has placed an order of things between a man and a woman, the modern church wants to say it is bigotry against women. Well, if that's bigotry, then God is a bigot. Because it's not bigotry or misogynism or any other sex-baiting name people want to call it. Women are not to rule over men in the church, and that's not debatable as far as God's word is concerned. It has to do with the creation order and the will of God, not Paul's personal opinions about women.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Robert Powell on May 17, 2018, 04:07:27 PM
 )Goodpoint( It's not Paul's opinion. The Bible is not private interpretations, it's God's will for us.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 17, 2018, 04:18:42 PM
I agree, Reformer.  Good post.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Melanie on May 17, 2018, 05:37:01 PM
From a woman Betty,  you're Wrong!  )GoodPopst( Reformer!

Couldn't agree more. It's either God's word or it isn't. No two ways about it. It's not Paul's thoughts, it's what God inspired him to pen. If you don't believe that, you've brought the whole bible into question regarding its authority over the church.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Kevin Wright on May 17, 2018, 07:01:10 PM
 )ditto(
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Walt Lee on May 18, 2018, 01:19:14 AM
I don't know about you but I believe that God is the author of the Bible. That means it wasn't Paul who was giving his own personal opinions concerning instructions for men and women, it was God. If we don't believe God authored the words of the Bible, then we can't really believe anything in the bible.

  )Bible-Red(  )amen(  )Goodpoint(  :iagree:  &TY )word( )GoodPopst(  )God-Bless-You(
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 18, 2018, 09:58:56 AM
My take on Betty's comment was that she was completely in agreement with you all, that Paul was actually elevating women at that time to that of equality with men (there is no male or female in Christ) and that what today's view of Paul as degrading women is actually just the opposite when viewed in the context of the status of women at the time of Christ.  I am not a historian, but I think Jewish as well as gentile culture back then was not positive for women, especially in the context of the legalism of the time.  Yes, it was supposed to be a positive thing for women via the Torah, but just as many other things, the legalism of the time was not a good thing for women and Paul was trying to actually elevate them to the level of the bride of Christ, that is, parallel their value with Christ's value of the church, which is really an ultimate perspective of women.  I think that's what Betty was trying to say, but maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Betty on May 20, 2018, 03:50:51 PM
My take on Betty's comment was that she was completely in agreement with you all, that Paul was actually elevating women at that time to that of equality with men (there is no male or female in Christ) and that what today's view of Paul as degrading women is actually just the opposite when viewed in the context of the status of women at the time of Christ.

No I don't think Paul was elevating women at that time to that of equality with men, I think that he was putting women down, not building them up. His opinion was that women were not good enough or smart enough to lead men, the same as all the men of that era thought. That's not what God said, it's Paul's misogynist traits showing through. He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative. My minister also says that this was Paul's opinion and based on the times, and is not what God wanted.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 20, 2018, 04:36:03 PM
Quote
No I don't think Paul was elevating women at that time to that of equality with men, I think that he was putting women down, not building them up. His opinion was that women were not good enough or smart enough to lead men, the same as all the men of that era thought. That's not what God said, it's Paul's misogynist traits showing through. He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative.

You think Paul's writing was only an opinion? Do you every really think that God would allow Paul to write his own opinion in Scripture about women under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

2 Peter 1:21
[21]  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

No, you are WRONG. The Holy Bible is a direct Word of God Himself that He used men like Paul to write down exactly what He wanted him to write through the Holy Spirit!

John 5:39
[39]  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

God did not use man to write their opinions as a testimony to Him! Everything in Scripture that you read are all a TRUE TESTIMONY of God!

If you think Paul's writing in Bible is just his opinion that you can tear some out of Scripture because it does not apply to our culture or time, then you do NOT believe God and His Word.

Quote
My minister also says that this was Paul's opinion and based on the times, and is not what God wanted.

I am not surprised with why you are deceived in your false prophet's church. His testimony did not represent God. 
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 20, 2018, 10:56:35 PM
My take on Betty's comment was that she was completely in agreement with you all, that Paul was actually elevating women at that time to that of equality with men (there is no male or female in Christ) and that what today's view of Paul as degrading women is actually just the opposite when viewed in the context of the status of women at the time of Christ.

No I don't think Paul was elevating women at that time to that of equality with men, I think that he was putting women down, not building them up. His opinion was that women were not good enough or smart enough to lead men, the same as all the men of that era thought. That's not what God said, it's Paul's misogynist traits showing through. He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative. My minister also says that this was Paul's opinion and based on the times, and is not what God wanted.

It just STM that if Paul's perspective was that there is neither male nor female in Christ and that husbands should perceive and treat their wives as Christ does His own church, then this distinguishes him from a perspective of purposefully and misogynistically treating women like furniture, which was evidently prevalent in the culture then, especially the gentile culture.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: aquatic on May 21, 2018, 03:44:22 PM
He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative.

Peter believed Paulís writings were more than opinion. He puts his writings on par with other scripture.

2Peter3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Peter3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Apostolic on May 22, 2018, 07:06:48 AM
He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative.

Peter believed Paulís writings were more than opinion. He puts his writings on par with other scripture.


8 out of 10 seminary students disagree with you and so do I. Christ said we are all one and equal, but Paul says women are under men and Peter that women are the weaker vessels. All the men of that era were obviously misogynistic.

I Cor. 11:7
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Apostolic on May 22, 2018, 07:08:18 AM
It just STM that if Paul's perspective was that there is neither male nor female in Christ and that husbands should perceive and treat their wives as Christ does His own church

And exactly what is STM?
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 22, 2018, 08:01:29 AM
Short Term Memory.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: da525382 on May 23, 2018, 11:27:44 AM
It just STM that if Paul's perspective was that there is neither male nor female in Christ and that husbands should perceive and treat their wives as Christ does His own church

And exactly what is STM?

"seems to me"
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Jason on May 23, 2018, 12:27:13 PM
It just STM that if Paul's perspective was that there is neither male nor female in Christ and that husbands should perceive and treat their wives as Christ does His own church

And exactly what is STM?


My dictionary and Wikapedia says it stands for Scanning Tunneling Microscopy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Emily on May 23, 2018, 04:01:34 PM
Very confusing. But everyone is in a hurry to get to nowhere these days. That's why I don't use acronyms. Except maybe L.O.L.
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: aquatic on May 23, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
He gave his opinion, which is why it's not authoritative.

Peter believed Paulís writings were more than opinion. He puts his writings on par with other scripture.


8 out of 10 seminary students disagree with you and so do I. Christ said we are all one and equal, but Paul says women are under men and Peter that women are the weaker vessels. All the men of that era were obviously misogynistic.

I Cor. 11:7
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

What do you have to say about Isaiah 3:12?

12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Is God misogynistic as well?
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Intercessor on May 30, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
From a woman Betty,  you're Wrong!  )GoodPopst( Reformer!

Couldn't agree more. It's either God's word or it isn't. No two ways about it. It's not Paul's thoughts, it's what God inspired him to pen. If you don't believe that, you've brought the whole bible into question regarding its authority over the church.

I am with Melanie on this one  ]ThUmBsUp[
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Stan Pat on May 30, 2018, 05:29:16 PM
From a woman Betty,  you're Wrong!  )GoodPopst( Reformer!

Couldn't agree more. It's either God's word or it isn't. No two ways about it. It's not Paul's thoughts, it's what God inspired him to pen. If you don't believe that, you've brought the whole bible into question regarding its authority over the church.

I am with Melanie on this one  ]ThUmBsUp[

 )ditto(
Title: Re: Paul and Women
Post by: Betty on June 01, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Great point, Betty....

Thank you