The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Scotty on January 06, 2018, 03:33:57 PM

Title: Predestination
Post by: Scotty on January 06, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
Since Predestination is unfair as it is understood by Calvinists, what is the true meaning of predestination as recorded in places like Romans 8:29 and 30? Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved? Thanks
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: SavedByGrace on January 06, 2018, 09:08:54 PM
Since Predestination is unfair as it is understood by Calvinists, what is the true meaning of predestination as recorded in places like Romans 8:29 and 30? Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved? Thanks

Hi Scotty and welcome to Mountain Retreat.

I am a Calvinist and for your information, no where in the Bible does God claim to be fair.  He claims to be just, gracious, merciful and loving.  He gives the non-elect justice in what they deserve and to the elect He gives mercy (God withholding from man what he deserves) and grace (God giving man what he does not deserve).
Here is a little parable that might help.

Let’s say that all of the molecules on a large table represent all of the people who have ever been born (perhaps 10 billion). God calls down with His megaphone and current press release saying, “Anyone who wants to go to heaven must simply keep the 10 Commandments!” How many will obey God’s edict? You got it, absolutely none. (Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.").
So let’s think about this. When they die, their punishment is eternal damnation, because they did not keep God’s law. Is God unjust? NO, because they went to hell because of their own sin. If God had allowed every single person to go to Hell, it would be complete justice for that is the punishment for their sins and God would be completely righteous in doing this. Now, if God reached down and picked out one single individual from this 10 billion, would this action be unjust? No! Because everyone broke the law and deserved their rightful punishment. This would be GRACE (God giving us what we don’t deserve or unmerited, undeserved favor). Would this be LOVE?  Yes, it would if God saved only one person, because that individual too did not deserve any special favor and only the Love of God could pardon such a sinner. Now for the big question, would that be fair? Let me expand on that thought:
Let’s say that I am a college professor and on the first day of class, I announce that there will be a research paper due on the first of every month. Any late papers will receive an “F”. Does everyone understand? The response is “Yes, Professor Bill, we understand.” On the first of the month, 95 out of 100 students turn in their paper on time. The remaining 5 cry with pink panther tears, “Professor Bill, we did not budget our time well and the transition between high school and college is very tough. Please have mercy (don’t give us what we rightfully deserve) on us and we will have the paper soon.” So I graciously say, “Okay, I will have mercy on you but remember that the next time your paper is late, you get an “F.  Do you understand?” Then the students all go away singing, “How wonderful Professor Bill is (How great Thou art).” The next month rolls around and only 85 of the 100 turn in their papers and the remaining 15 cry, “It is midterm season and we were so busy, have mercy on us, just this once more.” The softy that I am! I said, “Well, okay, but just this once more. Next month no excuses, do you understand?” The third month comes due and 60 of the 100 turn in their papers on time and the others casually say, “Cool man, no problem, we will have it soon.” I then call the roll, “John, no paper. That will be an “F.” Mary no paper. That will be an “F. Jimmy, no paper. That will be an “F”.” Then John stands and shouts, “That is not fair!” I then replied, “You are right, that was not fair. As I recall you were late on the first paper so here is your “F” and also on the second paper, so another “F” for you. Is there anyone else here who thinks that I should be fair?”
No one deserves salvation and God never promised to save everyone. The fact that God might save one person is totally an example of His love, just and gracious, but God is never portrayed as fair. All men will receive justice or Grace and it depends upon God and Him alone.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
We do not live by the law (Old Testament), but by the Grace of God (New Testament).
John1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ.

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Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved?
Be aware that looking down the through time to make a decision is not PREDESTINATION but FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Scotty, I hope that this will help and give you some understanding and appreciation for what God has done for His elect.

Bill
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Joe Johnson on January 07, 2018, 02:55:54 AM
Hi Billnjune,
  But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility? Because if our choice is determined or caused by anything other than free will, including our own desires, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Correct?
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Red on January 07, 2018, 06:03:30 AM
But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility?
Greetings Joe~To answer your question...It is indeed. In God's infinite wisdom he chose the first Adam to be responsible for his posterity. God created Adam unright, with no bias toward sin as we all have by nature, for by nature every man loves darkness more than light, so much much more that it is not even close...the truth is, he actually hates light/righteousness and in his mind and heart is at enmity against God...NOT just an enemy, which is bad enough, but one who is at war against truth, righteousness, and godliness everything that God loves and hates he despise God for being against what his heart loves and being for what his heart hates. So, Adam was created upright with a free will to keep ONE simple commandment and he did not do so but I'm convinced he sinned the very day in which he and Eve were created.

You know why he did not continue in that state of uprightness? It is simple...God alone is immutable, no created being can be so, not even angles! God's election must secure the gift of eternal life for BOTH man and angels.

Under the New Covenant, God secures the gift of eternal life for us by His Son's (the second Adam) perfect obedience/faith/righteousness. Jesus Christ was a complex person~BOTH man and God manifested in human flesh. Jesus Christ did perfectly what Adam could NOT do for us. God created Adam and LEFT him to himself WITHOUT any assistance to make him do that one simple commandment. Under the New Covenant God laid help upon one that was MORE THAN ABLE to deliver us from sin and condemnation, his only begotten Son~ he came and destroyed the works of the Devil and delivered us from the bondage of sin and condemnation that Adam's disobedience placed us under.

So, the sum of this is: IN ADAM we all had a free will and with that free will sinned when left to ourselves, thereby became morally responsible for our sin through our father/head the first Adam. Paul deals at length with this subject in Romans chapter 5~how Adam and Christ were representatives of their seed/posterity. What each did was imputed to all of their seed.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Granny on January 13, 2020, 06:45:05 AM

Hey everyone. Check this out that I stumbled upon on facebook yesterday

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210351325634137&set=a.1780980678942&type=3&eid=ARAbj8RPGA-NDS5-kBuMQskANBXrpcY1MYbwWuBZA6E2vtBpIFCBRZPXKnGw7nsaTqPwq2paCYvq_qzn

What do you think? Is preaching the truth a waste of time or not?
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2020, 08:23:46 AM
             Nothing new there Grandma :)
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Scotty on January 13, 2020, 10:00:22 AM
Granny, the link doesn't work. It says page not available  )Say_what(
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Rupert on January 14, 2020, 04:47:05 AM

That was an excellent answer Granny. Very concise too. You can't really argue against it.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: George on January 14, 2020, 06:24:22 AM
Not True. We know clever talk can fool some people, but it's not really a good argument. There's little good arguments for predestination. I'm glad that guest knows that and is not moved by his lack of a good argument.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Scotty on January 14, 2020, 08:03:40 AM

 )thinker( Again, how are you guys reading this? I can't see anything. The page just says "This page isn't available!" )Say_what(

Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 14, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Scotty, do you have Facebook account? The link is to Facebook image.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Scotty on January 14, 2020, 02:14:10 PM
No, do I need a Facebook account to see that page?
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 14, 2020, 02:45:58 PM
Probably yeah.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Reggie Matthews on January 14, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
  But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility? Because if our choice is determined or caused by anything other than free will, including our own desires, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Correct?

That's human reasoning, not following the scriptures. You either serve Satan or you serve God. Was it your choice to serve Satan and then by your own righteousness you broke out of slavery by your own strength? Because God says you were a slave. So is he right or wrong? Did you break free of slavery by your own work? Or were you delivered from slavery by the work of Christ? That's not free will.  When God says come let us reason together, why don't you cast off human reasoning? If you have the ability to not be a slave by your own free choice rather than Christ's free payment, then you were not a slave. Or was God right, that we all were slaves before we were set free? That's what grace is Joe. It's not free will.

Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2020, 06:15:38 AM
No, do I need a Facebook account to see that page?

Scotty, don't bother signing up. You're not missing anything on that page.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Reformer on January 17, 2020, 07:03:05 AM
No, do I need a Facebook account to see that page?

Scotty, don't bother signing up. You're not missing anything on that page.

Scotty should be the judge of that for himself. The short is that this is some Christian who evidently was viewing Tony's guestbook and was inspired by his reply to someone speaking against Predestination. Here's the image part of the post that this Christian submitted of Tony's guestbook. You can hit the "control" and "+" keys if it's too small to read in some browsers. I see these type comments all the time on the internet, so I understand what a great witness this site is.

Despite all the noise from Dan and the usual suspects, God is good and still making his word known as a blessing to many. Of course, this is a Facebook image "from" Tony's Guestbook. The image is on their site so it may or may not change or disappear at any time.

(https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/p720x720/17359356_10210351325634137_4787318273002901870_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ohc=kccLvdp0zPcAX8uQVk_&_nc_ht=scontent.fphl2-2.fna&_nc_tp=1002&oh=504714f219031e8271fe78d69edc51e6&oe=5ED8CD33)
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Scotty on January 17, 2020, 01:56:53 PM

Thank you Reformer. If we're all born in sin that did make sense didn't it.

I would have opened an account but I'm wary of facebook since its info sharing and privacy problems recently. I don't want to end up on a spam email list.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 17, 2020, 04:49:54 PM
Hello Scotty,

I understand your concerns about privacy and spam. May I suggest that you go ahead and create a new gmail address just for your new Facebook account only.  For example, register Facebook with your new email address like.. "scottyfacebook@gmail.com.”  You can then have access facebook without worrying about hacker or spam against your original email address.


Hope this will help you. 

Erik
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Diane Moody on January 18, 2020, 03:57:32 AM
Once again, Thank You Tony Warren, Reformer, Trevor, Melanie, Reformed Baptist, Erik, Mark, and Peng Bao for your compassion in showing the rest of us what true Christianity consists of.

Helping others and standing up for truth. My prayers go out for all of you  )praying-hands(
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Granny on January 18, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
Once again, Thank You Tony Warren, Reformer, Trevor, Melanie, Reformed Baptist, Erik, Mark, and Peng Bao for your compassion in showing the rest of us what true Christianity consists of.

Helping others and standing up for truth. My prayers go out for all of you  )praying-hands(

 )iagree(  Just want to say that that of the time that I've been here, this list reads like a who's who of helpful Christians preaching the doctrines of grace. I wish that all of us could be as helpful.  Christ said,

 Matt. 7:16-20
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

These are who Christ spoke of as the good Samaritan. The helpful few.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Dan on January 18, 2020, 01:42:47 PM
So I guess only those 8 are Christians then?  )Say_what(

Oh well, I better give to Catholic charities before I'm banned here.

For your information grandma, preaching predestination is not helping anyone.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Mark on January 18, 2020, 05:54:42 PM
So I guess only those 8 are Christians then?  )Say_what(

Oh well, I better give to Catholic charities before I'm banned here.

For your information grandma, preaching predestination is not helping anyone.

Dan, how long are you going to fight against God’s holy word. Preaching sovereign grace (predestination) as a faithful witness helps his children be reliant on him alone, his will over our own, it’s not of us choosing/accepting him but him choosing us unto eternal life. Selah

John 1:12,13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You see that, God’s will over the will of man to become sons(children) of God.
He that has an ear, let him hear.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Mark on January 18, 2020, 06:08:46 PM
Anyone interested, there is a great book written by Arthur W Pink on the sovereignty of God over at the Monergism website. Link below.

https://www.monergism.com/search?f%5B0%5D=author%3A35278&page=3
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Melanie on January 19, 2020, 04:33:33 AM
So I guess only those 8 are Christians then?  )Say_what(


"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Matthew 21:29-31

God says that the tax collectors and whores get into heaven before the negligent so-called workers in the vineyard.  So is that the truth? Those who don't labor in the field as God commands have who to blame?


Quote
Oh well, I better give to Catholic charities before I'm banned here.

If you are banned here it will be because of your refusal to obey rules, not because you didn't do the will of God or neglected your comission as Christian. That judgment belongs to God.


Quote
For your information grandma, preaching predestination is not helping anyone.

Preaching predestination is the faithful witness of scripture, but the help in understanding the sovereignty of the creator comes from God.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6"

Preaching predestination is preaching the gospel. It is testifying to what God said. It's doing the will of God rather than our own will. It's giving God all the credit instead of stealing credit for ourselves for responding to God. It's grace versus works.


Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 19, 2020, 08:09:27 AM
Big amen!
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Frank Mortimer on January 20, 2020, 10:20:07 AM
For your information grandma, preaching predestination is not helping anyone.

Preaching predestination is the faithful witness of scripture, but the help in understanding the sovereignty of the creator comes from God.

 )Bible-Red(    &TY
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Sandy on February 19, 2020, 11:58:24 AM
Hi Billnjune,
  But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility? Because if our choice is determined or caused by anything other than free will, including our own desires, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Correct?

Have you ever considered what happened to mankind at the creation, when man was indeed created to freely choose to obey God and live forever?  With a will (conscience) having no knowledge of good or evil, man freely chose to disobey God, and heeded the voice of the serpent.  Since that day both knowledge of sin and death came unto the mind of man and all of his progeny.  This is seen when the man and woman discovered their nakedness, and attempted to hide from God.  Mankind cannot blame God for his fall because he could have freely chosen to obey God.  Since man freely chose to heed the voice of the serpent God blocked his way to the tree of life.  Mankind could never again freely choose to partake of the tree of life and live forever because sin and death through sin is now all that unsaved mankind know.  Man will NEVER freely choose God for everlasting life because man's way to the tree of life is blocked forever.  Now the only way that mankind can partake of life everlasting is "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" Jo 1:13.   

God saw from heaven the heart of mankind, and He did not see who would choose them and predestine them to everlasting life in Christ.  What He saw was that all of mankind had become desperately wicked, and "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Ro 3:10-11)   If the choosing, through predestination is not of God, there is no hope for any man.  Apart from God choosing from eternity to give eternal life through Christ to whosoever He will, no man would desire to freely choose Christ for life everlasting.                   
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Larry on February 19, 2020, 05:52:56 PM
 )Goodpoint(  If one doesn't think the word Predestination means predestination, then I wonder what thety think the word means?
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Kira on February 20, 2020, 01:12:29 AM
)Goodpoint(  If one doesn't think the word Predestination means predestination, then I wonder what they think the word means?

From what I read of them, they believe that it means they were predestinated because God saw they would freely come to Christ. Not that it actually says that, or that it says just the opposite, but that's what they believe. They make predestination mean foreknowledge without any basis of biblical standing.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Joe Johnson on February 20, 2020, 02:10:49 AM
Have you ever considered what happened to mankind at the creation, when man was indeed created to freely choose to obey God and live forever?  With a will (conscience) having no knowledge of good or evil, man freely chose to disobey God, and heeded the voice of the serpent.

As it should have been. Because without his free will to do so, we would all have been a bunch of robots. Man had to have free will. That's why we have those who freely choose to be good, and those undeserving who continue on in evil.


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Mankind cannot blame God for his fall because he could have freely chosen to obey God.

That's right. But you Reformed people choose to blame God for someone not being saved by this doctrine of no free will, just God's will.


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Man will NEVER freely choose God for everlasting life because man's way to the tree of life is blocked forever.

Rev. 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.'


Quote
If the choosing, through predestination is not of God, there is no hope for any man. 

The hope is that man may choose of himself, of his own free will.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Joe Johnson on February 20, 2020, 02:12:05 AM
)Goodpoint(  If one doesn't think the word Predestination means predestination, then I wonder what they think the word means?

From what I read of them, they believe that it means they were predestinated because God saw they would freely come to Christ. Not that it actually says that,

It's an obvious conclusion. Are you saying God has no foreknowledge?
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Mark on February 20, 2020, 03:14:06 AM

It's an obvious conclusion. Are you saying God has no foreknowledge?

You do err not knowing the scriptures. God’s foreknowledge is that no one would come to him of his own choosing, thus God himself chooses. It wouldn’t really be God’s will if he foresaw someone choose him and then based of that decision he then predestinates/predetermines them to be saved. That is dependant on man’s will and not Sovereign God’s.

If you will receive it.

John 1:13
13 3 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Erik Diamond on February 20, 2020, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: Mark
If you will receive it.

John 1:13
13 3 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, Joe Johnson...before you response, please check with your Scripture and find any verse that refute those two versres above.  You may think that you sovereignly chose God of YOUR OWN FREE WILL, but in truth God has working within you first, according to God's will. Your faith and repentance are RESULT of God's working, not the cause nor your free will! It is because God carries out His work in Salvation WITHOUT prior your human action, agency or consent.  You reacts to God's sovereign grace with the fruits of that work. 


Php 2:13
(13)  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I suggest that you read the article about the Predestination: The Doctrine of Grace.   (http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/predestination_the_doctrine_of_grace.shtml)

 


Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Sandy on March 05, 2020, 12:27:13 PM
Have you ever considered what happened to mankind at the creation, when man was indeed created to freely choose to obey God and live forever?  With a will (conscience) having no knowledge of good or evil, man freely chose to disobey God, and heeded the voice of the serpent.

As it should have been. Because without his free will to do so, we would all have been a bunch of robots. Man had to have free will. That's why we have those who freely choose to be good, and those undeserving who continue on in evil.


Quote
Mankind cannot blame God for his fall because he could have freely chosen to obey God.

That's right. But you Reformed people choose to blame God for someone not being saved by this doctrine of no free will, just God's will.


Quote
Man will NEVER freely choose God for everlasting life because man's way to the tree of life is blocked forever.

Rev. 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.'


Quote
If the choosing, through predestination is not of God, there is no hope for any man. 

The hope is that man may choose of himself, of his own free will.

God does indeed see from heaven the hearts of mankind.  Before being declared righteous through Christ according to grace through faith, here is what God sees.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Consider when mankind could have been perceived as robotic:

God created man without knowing either good or evil.  Then according to their free will, God gave them a choice to freely hear Him, or to hear the serpent.  We know what choice they made.  But how was man, whom God created very good, having free will, able to understand the choices they made?  Without knowing sin and death that comes through sin, were they really free? 

How can their choice to heed the voice of the serpent and disobey God be any thing other than robotic, since they knew not that their free will choice would result in death.  They had no knowledge of what death and sin were.  For a man to freely choose, he/she would have to have all the information or the choice they make is dependent only upon their experience in the garden when everything was "very good". 

So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation?  He introduces the tempter into the very good creation to show mankind how his/her so called free will was not then, nor is it now truly free.  Our will is always dependent upon what we know.  Now mankind, before salvation will always choose that which is natural to them.  And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.  Because it is only in knowing both good and bad that man's wills are truly free.               
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: George on March 06, 2020, 01:15:59 AM
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation? 

By allowing them free will. That's the only way they are not robots. If they have their own free will. That's the key.


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And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.

That's the old liberal philosophy. Mankind is free to choose to come to the kingdom or not come. We have that choice.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Answer me this Sandy. Why would God say come to someone who can't come? We have free will to come. Yes?

Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Mark on March 06, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
Quote
 
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation?  He introduces the tempter into the very good creation to show mankind how his/her so called free will was not then, nor is it now truly free.         

God does not tempt any man to sin nor is he tempted by it. Please read circumspectly.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Adam and Eve lusted after the fruit (to make one wise) and in their self justification they transgressed God’s law and thus sinned. The choice was to obey God and live or disobey and die. As it is written the wages of sin is death.
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Sandy on March 07, 2020, 08:46:07 AM
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation? 

By allowing them free will. That's the only way they are not robots. If they have their own free will. That's the key.


Quote
And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.

That's the old liberal philosophy. Mankind is free to choose to come to the kingdom or not come. We have that choice.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Answer me this Sandy. Why would God say come to someone who can't come? We have free will to come. Yes?

The message; i.e. the gospel, about Christ is offered to every human without distinction.  Whosoever will may come!  There is no weakness in the offer of life to whosoever.  The weakness is found in mankind!  They are not prevented from coming, they have no desire to come.  They love the darkness, and will not turn to Christ that they might have life everlasting.  Had God not predestined whosoever He wills, then NO man would freely choose to turn to Christ for life.  Why?  Because they MUST go thru Christ (the true tree of life) to have eternal life, and they love the darkness they live in and have no desire to come into the light, because then their evil deeds would be exposed.   
Title: Re: Predestination
Post by: Sandy on March 07, 2020, 08:57:00 AM


It was not God Who tempted them.  His purpose for sending the tempter was to turn them from within to Him.  As you have said the desire came from within.  Why?  God tried them as He does all men.  But do not forget, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.  God knew that man without knowing sin and death would fall victim to the wiles of the serpent.  But God in His great love and mercy had an answer for the problem of sin and death before either entered in to God's glorious creation.

Yes, man could have chosen to obey God and live forever.  But I must ask, how could man have ever discovered how great the love of God is if he never knows sin and death?  Mankind in the garden would indeed have continued to live forever in a robotic state of being never knowing Christ, the merciful Redeemer.  It was all part of God's all knowing plan, and this was conceived in eternity before the world was created.  God will have a people for Himself!  Their names are recorded in heaven from before the foundation of the world.  I know it is difficult for us to understand, but it was never God's plan to save every man.