The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Eschatology => Topic started by: Erik Diamond on December 07, 2017, 02:15:34 PM

Title: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Erik Diamond on December 07, 2017, 02:15:34 PM

Zec 12:2-4
[2]  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3]  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
[4]  In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

With the news about Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. People, especially Premillennialists, are screaming everywhere that nations are going to fight against nation Israel over Jerusalem as sign of Christ's return.  I tried to correct them by offering Scripture below and explain that Jerusalem is Christ Himself that all of us came against him at the Cross.  Not about physical city of Jerusalem in 70AD or today. It is about Christ and His Congregation, Israel.

Mat 21:42-45
[42]  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43]  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44]  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45]  And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

1Pe 2:6-8
[6]  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
[7]  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
[8]  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


Act 4:24-30
[24]  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25]  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26]  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28]  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
[29]  And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
[30]  By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

People are giving me looks or accused me of not being pro-Israel and Christian.

Am I right with my doctrine here? Have anyone experience hatred from Premillennialists lately?
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Hammerle Labinowic on December 07, 2017, 02:56:41 PM
Premillennialists, and particularly the Dispensationalist type,  have about as much regard for scripture as Trump has for rule of law. But you can see if any might have some integrity by having them read this article by Tony's friend, Doyle Dewberry.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/the-new-covenant.html

Personally, I think that they are lost, like the rulers of the church when Christ came. They just will not receive the truth.
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Herman Stowe on December 07, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
Great article Hammer!
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 08, 2017, 09:11:36 AM
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People are giving me looks or accused me of not being pro-Israel and Christian.
<<<

Christ is the burdensome stone for them, but not for us. As for the accusations, they accused Christ who was without fault and who spoke perfectly concerning these truths, so rejoice and consider it a blessing to know the true Israel of God that you can be Pro-towards, revealing who is a true Christian (follower of Christ) and who is following the same error of National Israel.

Luke 6:26

Being falsely accused is normative for Christ's true saints when they attempt to witness the truth.THAT is why MOST professing Christians do not witness. They don't want the notoriety, the hassle, the reviling and persecutions. They're like the parable of those who received a talent and went and hide it, buried them in the ground for the Lord's coming (Matthew 25). They don't want that kind of aggravation. So do not worry or be dissuaded. In fact, be worried if they didn't accuse you and spoke well of you (Luke 6:26). Then you'd be like the world, like everyone else.

Mark 14:57-59

We are not better than our Christ, Jesus told us plainly that in the world we would have Great Tribulation. But we can be of good cheer because He had overcome the world. ...and us in Him!


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Am I right with my doctrine here? Have anyone experience hatred from Premillennialists lately?
<<<

Don't ask men, search the Scriptures as the Bereans to see if things are true. If your testimony or witness agree together with the witness of Scripture, then it is impossible for your doctrine to be wrong. Who does the Scriptures say is the Israel of God, and who does the Scriptures say are fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israe and is one body (not two). Who is all spiritually Jews in God's eyes, and what Jerusalem rejects Christ and God says is in bondage with her children? How then is it possible for you to be wrong. There is neither Jew or Greek, we are all ONE in Christ Jesus. There isn't two New Covenants with Israel, for then there would have to be two distinct and separate Israels. Premillennarians notwithstanding.

Matthew 5:11-12

Don't despair my friend, rejoice! If you should despair, despair for them as the unpalatable truth is, God has not opened their eyes to truth. Pray for them, as we are worshiping two different Jerusalems--one present and another
(ours) from above. We look towards two different Stones and ours is not burdensome, not built with hands. We look toward two different Kingdoms, and ours is not earthly, but Spiritual. Again, the unpalatable truth is, we're just two different people as different as the Apostles were to the Scribes and Pharisees, though both claimed to be worshipping, serving and love the very same God and Messiah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Erik Diamond on December 08, 2017, 10:59:40 AM
Thank you Tony. 
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Sue Landow on December 08, 2017, 11:41:01 AM
 :GoodPopst: Tony

   I read n a blog somewhere a article called "the forgotten commission." It should be required reading because that seems to be what is lacking in Christianity today.  The love of truth.
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Reformer on December 08, 2017, 01:05:34 PM
 :amen: Tony,

Isa 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Erik, you are correct! Christ is that Sanctuary Stone to those who sanctify him, but the Stone of stumbling, the burdensome stone for the Jews who reject Christ as the foundation stone of Israel and refuse to sanctify Him.

 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 Burdensome means something very hard or difficult to carry on themselves, as the Old Testament law for which Christ came to be the foundation and carry for them. They rejected this Stone supporting the Sanctuary being offended by this Savior. Therefore will this stone will grind them to powder. They rejected the true Jerusalem made without hands for the burdensome one made with hands. Which is why Israel is under judgment where neither the UN, the church or Israel's army can deliver them. This is what these accusers cannot understand.  Not unlike other politically motivated ideas of Christianity and what constitutes Israel, righteousness and joining forces in friendship with the world.

Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Erik Diamond on December 08, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
:GoodPopst: Tony

   I read n a blog somewhere a article called "the forgotten commission." It should be required reading because that seems to be what is lacking in Christianity today.  The love of truth.

Hi Sue, I did look up on Google. It looks like there are two or three different article with the same title. Which is which?

Thanks,
Erik
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 09, 2017, 03:38:55 AM
Is this the one you're talking about?

The Forgotten Commision
by Dr. Wally Webster

My grandmother was an amazing cook and baker. She was able to make great-tasting food like no one on the face of the earth. Maybe this is just nostalgia, or maybe it is absolute fact. I’m not certain the good old days were as good as we make them to be, but there will always be room for nostalgic thoughts. What is sad about my grandmother’s cooking is when she passed away, so did many of her wonderful recipes. Yes, many of them are written down, but reading from a note card and producing the exact results is not the same as walking the journey alongside the cook.

Reflecting on the loss of those amazing meals and desserts takes me back to the memories of family and special gatherings. It’s sad to see memories lost in the rush of life today. What saddens me more are the great principles and lessons God teaches His children that never make it past the memory stage. I am referring to the many times God teaches His followers a great truth from His Word and life situations, and these truths never get passed on to others. Often when a believer dies, so do wonderful lessons.

What if the disciples who sat under our Lord’s teaching for over three years had chosen to hold those truths and never share them? What if those truths had passed away with the deaths of those 12 men? What if they had not obeyed the command to make disciples? We can only speculate the answer. What we do know is that these men passed on the truths as they had been commanded. They did it so well that over 2000 years later, we are still discussing the great truths that were taught by our Savior. They then taught others who sought out faithful men, who in turn taught others (2 Timothy 2:2).

Having served in the pastoral ministry for over 25 years, I can say with a great deal of authority that the commission given to the disciples and passed on to the church has become the forgotten commission. Jesus’ last command to His disciples about ministry was to go into all the world and make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20). This command has often been called the Great Commission. The disciples knew exactly what was expected of them and were willing to die to obey the command. Jesus explained clearly that they were to take the commandments He had taught them and make disciples. In other words, pass the teachings on while you still can.

I see no reason to believe that the command originally given to these 12 men has been fulfilled or rescinded. The command to make disciples is just as relevant today as it was when it was given to the 12 disciples. We know that it is still valid because the church understood it as a mandate (2 Timothy 2:2). Paul told Timothy to do exactly what our Lord told His disciples—find others to teach the truths that you have been taught. Yet today I find very few churches who have an intentional disciple-making ministry and very few pastors who are involved in personal disciple making. It has truly become the forgotten commission.

Paul also reminds the church leaders to “equip the saints” so they can do the work of the ministry. Too many pastors believe they need to do all the work of the ministry, but it is clear that our main objective is not doing ministry, but training others to do ministry. As pastors, we are the most gifted leaders in the church, and we need to exponentially duplicate ourselves for the cause of Christ.

Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Manuel on December 09, 2017, 04:22:40 PM

I've often wondered this about the passage in question. Exactly how is Jerusalem made a burdensome stone. Is that the language of judgment or what?
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 10, 2017, 05:00:08 AM
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I've often wondered this about the passage in question. Exactly how is Jerusalem made a burdensome stone. Is that the language of judgment or what?
<<<

Zechariah 12:3

It's the allegorical story of two Jerusalems. One earthy, of this world and the flesh carnall, and remains at war with all around her--and one Spiritual, not of this world but of heaven, which s not carnal and has been comforted and is at peace. Yes, this passage points to judgment upon the earthly Jerusalem for sin, but also symbolism and imagery regarding their efforts at work to build and carry this city themselves, and their rejection of the unburdensome Stone as the Spiritual foundation of that building.

Psalms 127:1

A Spiritual Nation, a Spiritual City, a Spiritual Temple, all with Spiritual Jews. This is what the nation of Israel and their facsimiles the Dispensationalists don't understand about prophesy. Briefly, this all speaks of the earthly stone that men are laden with vs the Spiritual stone that is no burden to them. The burdensome stone represents something oppressively heavy. Jerusalem is this burdensome stone because its people (as they still do today) attempt to build and uphold the nation of Israel, the Holy City Jerusalem, and the Holy Temple and bear it by their own efforts. They are the prophesied builders (Mark 12:10) who by their own means and their own hands want to build earthly nations, kingdoms, cities and Temples, foolishly thinking this is what prophecy requires and what God desires. And this is the great weight of Jerusalem that was and still is truly oppressing both them, and every Zionist that is connected with this philosophy. By contrast, Christ is the Jerusalem that is a "Burden-less Stone" and is not heavy or oppressive to its people. Indeed He came as the foundation Stone of the builders that He might relieve their burden, but they (like the Dispensationalists who sprang from their root) want nothing to do with a Spiritual Israel, and are obsessed with a temporal land, Jerusalem and Temple. In other words, Christ came as the Stone that would give them rest from these heavy burdens that no human could carry on their own, and they refused that type of Stone, that type of Messiah, that type of Kingdom. Take for example what Christ said in Matthew chapter 11:

Matthew 11:28-30

He is the Stone whose burden is light as compared to the burden of earthly Jerusalem, because He does all the heavy lifting Himself. Christ is the burden-less stone that the builders (Jews) rejected. And that rejection means that they had to bear the heavy burden of sin themselves. Something mankind cannot do, and anyone who tries will come under God's judgment. That's why Christ came as the Spiritual nation, the Spiritual Israel, God's "true" only begotten Son called out of Egypt, the Spiritual Jerusalem from above, the Spiritual city of Peace, the Spiritual Holy Temple wherein we can inter into the true holiest of Holies in a Spiritual way through His flesh (Hebrews 10:20). For some reason this Spiritual understanding of God's truth offends many. However, it is in this Spiritual Jerusalem only that God's chosen people may cast off that heavy and burdensome stone. For they think of Prophecy in earthly / worldly terms as concerning the people residing in a plot of dirt in the middle east. Consider the prophesy of Christ's coming and the language of this Spiritual Jerusalem that will learn war no more:

Isaiah 40:1-3

This Jerusalem represents the elect people of God who will study war no more because they are the Jerusalem that is Spiritual and comforted of God. It's not earthly Jerusalem, or the physical city in Israel that finds Peace and safety, it is the people of this burdenless Stone. These are two distinct and separate Jerusalems, as diverse as Hagar and Sarah and the Covenants with Israel that they represented.

One Jerusalem Christ wept over and prophesied its desolation:

Matthew 23:37-38

This Jerusalem is the burdensome stone that has been cast down, and remanins at war with God, who has brought its people to desolation for their rejection.

The other Jerusalem God has forgiven and comforted and made peace with. She is the Israel of God, a Holy Nation, a holy City, a Holy Temple, not made by the work of men's hands, but made without hands. This Jerusalem has a burdenless foundation stone whereupon we build, and it is this Stone that brought His people's rest and peace with God. The burdensome stone Jerusalem is surrounded with armies because she never has any peace and once the True Stone was rejected, God sent judgment upon it.

How ironic that a Holy City of God whose name means "Peace" would be found in captivity and at war wherein she was left desolated and in bondage/captivity with her children even to this day, while the Jerusalem which is from heaven would be set free and brought everlasting peace and safety. The allegory of the two groups is striking, but clearly understandable through Spiritual eyes opened by the power of the Revelator.

Galatians 4:23-26

Here God illustrates the two Jerusalems. One of the flesh, a burdensome stone, represented by Hagar, at war with God and so remains to this day in bondage with her children. The other from above, set free from spiritual bondage/captivity by the Lord Jesus Christ and brought peace. This is the Jerusalem whereupon the Israel of the flesh stumbled upon in God's judgment.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Manuel on December 10, 2017, 07:03:50 AM
 &TY
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Dan on December 10, 2017, 08:39:55 AM
Tony, why do you always have to condemn the Dispensational doctrine? Can't you make your point without judging another doctrine? I guess you're also angry because we have a President in office that supports Israel, recognizes Jerusalem as the focal point of the Jews, and the majority of Christians who support him and this move? Jerusalem will always be the heart of the Jewish people. That why you misinterpret Scripture to suit your Amillennial bent?  :baghead:
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Reformer on December 10, 2017, 09:30:51 AM
Actually Tony is not political here, much to your disappointment I'm sure. He's not going to praise or condemn Bush, Trump, Obama or Hilary because they're all unsaved and have nothing to do with the Church or her mission, despite what some conservatives are deluded into thinking. From Tony's posts it's clear that he  believes in the separation of church and state, which Dispensationalists and their far right ilk do not. Two separate things, so let's stick to the topic, which I think he addressed beautifully.  Again, much to your disappointment I'm sure since you cannot address it Biblically.
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: ZeroCool on December 10, 2017, 11:21:41 AM
Two separate things, so let's stick to the topic, which I think he addressed beautifully.  Again, much to your disappointment I'm sure since you cannot address it Biblically.

 &TY  :BibleRead: The topic is Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone.
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: George on December 10, 2017, 03:42:25 PM
We don't deny that there is a spiritual Jerusalem, we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: David Knoles on December 10, 2017, 07:10:51 PM
 :iagree: Exactly!
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 11, 2017, 08:32:56 AM
>>>
Tony, why do you always have to condemn the Dispensational doctrine?
<<<

Dan,
   Because I am a Christian, literally a follower of Christ. What would you suggest I do? Wink at false gospel being taught in the church, in the name Christ, and say (as many do) we're all of the same body, it's a nonessential and we all shall have peace? That would be a Non sequitur. When someone seeks bread, shall I give them a burdensome stone instead (Luke 11:11), Of if someone seek fish, shall I give them a serpent instead and claim it's all the same? No, for false doctrines in the church are the death of the church, they are not a non-essential as the faithless believe.

Matthew 16:6-12

Yes, I testify, beware of the leaven of Dispensationalism.  I never fear to condemn false doctrine, wherever it may be in the church. Be it a Reformed Church, Catholic, Dispensational, Baptist, Postmillennial, Puritan, Charismatic, Preterist, it makes no difference to me. False doctrines are the scourge on the church and should be warned against just as surely as Christ warned against the doctrines of the Priests, Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees.
 

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Can't you make your point without judging another doctrine?
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It is another doctrine, but it's not another's doctrine, because it's called Christianity and it's masquerading as the doctrine of Christ. Yes, sad to say I may appear unorthodox because I condemn it, but actually I take being a watchman seriously. Yes, THERE IS very little judgment in the church today against false doctrines--in fact there is very little judgment in the church today against anything unholy. For the Lord's house has become more a den of thieves where judgment has almost completely disappeared as a famine of hearing the word of God. Nothing new under the sun. Consider:

Isaiah 59:14-15

It displeases all God's children. Think about that next time you ask for less judgment from the church. Revelation 20:4 says God gave the saints judgment, the judgment of His Holy word. But alas, it seems as if the saints have reasoned among themselves that it is an unnecessary and cruel thing and have in their humanistic logic forborne to use it. Neither as the sword of the Spirit, or as the Spiritual bread. And yet they deem themselves to be faithful followers of Christ. ...in what universe is this true?


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I guess you're also angry because we have a President in office that supports Israel, recognizes Jerusalem as the focal point of the Jews, and the majority of Christians who support him and this move?
<<<

I think that you mistake my compassion and agape love in benevolent concern for Israel as being in bitterness and angry. You mistake my mourning and sadness at the blindness of political Israel for Jealousy. You mistake a plot of dirt in the middle east for the prophesied eternal home of God's chosen people. You mistake the politics concerning national Israel for God's prophesy of a righteous administration and rule of Israel. So many mistakes.  Indeed, you're right about one thing. Jerusalem IS the focal point of the Jews, but Jerusalem is not that plot of dirt in the middle east. That might just as well be a grave plot as the focal point of the true chosen people of God. 

Zechariah 14:17

God foresaw a drought in Jerusalem of those who would not worship its King. It's fulfilled, as for many the place has been desolated and turned into a desert with no rain.

As for your saying the "majority of Christians support" your doctrine, the majority has never been right about anything, nor have they been the elect in God's congregation. Read your Biblical history. It's always been just a remnant of the whole, those chosen by Grace.

Romans 9:27

Do you see a pattern here? Neither Israel nor their Dispensationalist brethren understand the words of God concerning these things. Likewise, the elect of the church are a remnant also, as anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can discern for themselves just by observing what has been and is taking place in our churches. If you think the majority of churches are faithful, you are in strong delusion concerning truth. The Biblical fact is, "many are called but few are chosen." If you want to go along with the many through that wide worldly door, then you go right ahead. But was it the majority of Jews walking righteously with Christ, or was it a remnant chosen by grace from the whole. Christ was not ambiguous in explaining this principle again and again and again. But you always seem to be blind to it. It's always been about the majority in unbelief, and on the other hand the few, the fragments, the residue, the remnant of God's people who are accounted to stand against that majority. The majority killed the prophets, killed Christ, are killing the church now. Why are the majority deceived? Because the path of the righteous is restrictive and the majority weren't given the Spirit to abide that. We can be reviled in taking up our cross and following Christ on the narrow path, or we can walk without persecution and trouble on the wide, broad path. Hmmmmm, what is the majority going to do? That's the principle in Scripture of the few and the many. Here is he demonstration by Christ.

Matthew 7:13-18

Many and few. There is the restrictive path of the righteous, and the wide open path that the unfaithful take because it is not restrictive. So you can brag about the majority of Christians trapped in the false doctrines and having been blinded to make earthly Jerusalem their focal point, but we will mourn for them--and yet, still give God the glory for it.


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Jerusalem will always be the heart of the Jewish people.
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Sad, but most assuredly true. Not only to the majority of Jewish people, but those who blindly follow the same Judaizers errors revisited in Dispensationalist doctrine. The same doctrine, repackaged with a different name.

Matthew 21:19

Israel is the fig Tree. Every tree that doesn't bring forth good fruit is cut down. That should be a lesson to every Christian that there is a set time God has appointed for fruit that He expects from His people, and when that time is over, it's over. NOW is the time, now is the acceptable day of the Lord. And when the testimony is finished, there is no more time for fruit. The Jew first and then the Gentile.


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That why you misinterpret Scripture to suit your Amillennial bent?  :baghead:
<<<

Actually, I try "not" to interpret Scripture, but allow Scripture to interpret itself. And in doing so, I find that God's position on the Kingdom of Israel, the Restoration of Israel, the Freeing the captivity of Israel, the building again of the ruins and Temple of Israel, the reign of the the king, the coming of the Messiah, has already been fulfilled. That's His Kingdom position, and the position today "labeled" Amillennial (no earthly 1000 years). I don't care, call it a box of crackers, the fact remains it is the only position that is identical to Scripture and is gleaned directly from the word of God itself rather than man's own vain ideas of kingdoms and wishful thinking. Let God be the judge which is actually God's vision and which is man's. Earthly or Spiritual? I'm comfortable with that.

Luke 17:20-21

While Israel, Premillennialists, Dispensationalists and others look for a physical Kingdom of Israel to come that can be observed as being "over there" in national Israel,  the Lord Himself has already corrected that declaring that's not how His Kingdom comes. i.e., it's not a earthly or worldly Kingdom observed over there, it's a Spiritual Kingdom. It's within us because we have His Spirit within us. Without that Spirit, we would be forever looking for a physical kingdom to come in the political arena of the middle east. You say that's a misinterpretation of Scripture, I say that's no interpretation at all, it's the unadulterated word of God testified to you word for word. You reject that word as surely as Israel rejected the Corner Stone that would have relieved their burden. i.e., Amillennialism, a word glean directly from the word of God--Dispensationalism, a word borne of the same errors of Old Covenant Israel looking for caral/earthly  fulfillments of Spiritual truths already fulfilled.

 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 11, 2017, 08:40:46 AM
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We don't deny that there is a spiritual Jerusalem...
<<<

No, you just argue "as if" every passage that speaks about Jerusalem in prophesy is about a physical city in the middle east that will be surrounded by physical armies and made war against, despite the fact that it can be easily proven by Scripture that these passages refer to a allegorical city and her children. In God's economy, the Old Testament Jerusalem was earthly and was desolated and fell at the cross. Was that a physical Jerusalem that fell at the cross? No, Jerusalem at the time of the cross physically stood as a great city, but as far as prophesy is concerned, the city was brought to desolation and left in ruins because of her abomination in rejecting her husband, the Messiah. Just as when Christ cursed the Fig tree declaring no fruit would ever grow on it again. That's His prophesy concerning Israel being as a Stone or mountain (kingdom) cast into the sea. Was it a physical Fig Tree Christ was angry with or a physical sea that Christ said by faith this mountain would be cast into? It would seem so to the careless reader. But no, the sea is the deep and the Fig tree and mountain is the kingdom of Israel. Just as Christ said Behold, Jerusalem was left Desolate, so these are pictures of the kingdom of Israel being left desolate, not a physical city under attack. If we will receive it.

Mark 11:21-23

We say, Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Whatsoever we shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven. Thus we do not doubt, for there are a lot of doubters about Christ's words concerning the timing of the judgment of the city of Jerusalem, and afterward about His comforting of her children. Her children--signifying that she is a woman. But it was at the same time of the cross. The Temple destroyed, and then restored by God. A city Jerusalem brought to desolation, and afterward the same city having its ruins rebuilt wherein there is Spiritual worship and sacrifice. Not physically, but Spiritually. And at the same time one Marriage Old Covenant with Israel dispensation passed, the New Marriage Covenant Israel dispensation established. Indeed, you deny the Spiritual Jerusalem by assigning prophesy concerning it--to be earthly.


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...we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.
<<<

We don't "ignore" the physical Nation, City or Jews, on the contrary, we receive them exactly the way God intended them to be received. As outward physical representations of something far more important than the physical nation, city and physical bloodline. The Holy City of Jerusalem in its physical existence was the corporate representation of the people of God's Holy habitation in Christ Jesus (the congregation). The word city represents a community. Make no mistake concerning prophesy, the only place where the Jews or children of God, will ever find peace and safety is as the bride of Christ. The truth of the physical is not ignored in our theology, it is realized, fulfilled, completed, the representation satisfied in Christ Jesus. Just as we don't ignore that the physical Temple that was built with hands, rather we understand that it was established by God to represent the true Holy Sanctuary of His people. A Temple far superior to the physical one that merely "prefigured" it, because it is the true that comes down from Heaven a Spiritual habitation made without hands. Ignoring the physical would be just as wrong as assigning what God has set as temporal and physical representations to a permanent or everlasting prophesy to be fulfilled in earthly terms. Selah.

John 4:19-24

The hour is here where God's people worship Him in the Spirit of truth, not in a physical city in the middle east that they have exalted to holy status. No, we don't deny anything of the Bible, we receive it because God gave us eyes to see and ears to hear..


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
Post by: Chris on December 12, 2017, 05:29:08 AM
we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.

They weren't ignored, they were judged. Blindness in part is happened to national Israel until the fullness of Gentiles come into the kingdom, and this is how all Israel shall be saved. The Jew was first, then the Gentiles. Is God ignoring the Jews or is he explaining the Jews and Israel?