The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Eschatology => Topic started by: Erik Diamond on September 07, 2017, 03:51:30 PM

Title: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 07, 2017, 03:51:30 PM

Heb 11:11-12
[11]  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[12]  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Rom 11:24
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Eph 2:12-14
[12]  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13]  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14]  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

A Jewish Christian insisted that the Gentiles are heathens as I defined it, wasn't biblical because he believe that the Gentiles who God save are the ones who have Jewish Roots as result from the dispersion of Northern Ten Tribes of Israel that were mixed with the heathens.  He does not believe the heathen Gentiles can be part of Christian Churches unless they first have Jewish root.

I believe that God can save any heathens Gentiles regardless of their Jewish/roots/nations/background, etc. 

So who is right? And why?



Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Russell Lloyd on September 07, 2017, 08:02:36 PM

You should ask who told him that. Because it sure is not something he got from the bible. A Gentile is a Gentile (non-Jew), there are no upgrades or better versions of Gentiles. And God says unbelieving Jews are not Jews, so what does that make them? If this person doesn't accept the bible as the authority, it's impossible to defend doctrines with him.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Hammerle Labinowic on September 09, 2017, 01:41:20 AM

A Jewish Christian insisted that the Gentiles are heathens


Heathens are non Jews so no Christian can be a heathen because they are Jews.

Quote
he believe that the Gentiles who God save are the ones who have Jewish Roots as result from the dispersion of Northern Ten Tribes of Israel that were mixed with the heathen.

You can't mix Jew with heathen, once saved you are Jews in God's sight, not heathen. As for the ten northern tribes, I suggest you give him a copy of Tony's Study:

 The 10 Lost Tribes of Israel

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/the_lost_tribes_of_israel.shtml


Quote
He does not believe the heathen Gentiles can be part of Christian Churches unless they first have Jewish root.

The Root is Christ, the source and Seed of all who are Israel. If they have Christ, they are Jews and heirs according to all the promises to Israel.


Quote
I believe that God can save any heathens Gentiles regardless of their Jewish/roots/nations/background, etc. 

So who is right? And why?

Romans 11:18
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Robert Powell on September 09, 2017, 07:08:01 AM
You can't mix Jew with heathen, once saved you are Jews in God's sight, not heathen. As for the ten northern tribes, I suggest you give him a copy of Tony's Study:

 The 10 Lost Tribes of Israel

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/the_lost_tribes_of_israel.shtml

 :amen:  Required Reading! 
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 09, 2017, 11:17:17 AM
Thank you guys. I forgot about Tony's study on lost tribes of Israel.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Tony Warren on September 10, 2017, 05:55:33 AM
>>>
He does not believe the heathen Gentiles can be part of Christian Churches unless they first have Jewish root.
<<<

They "do" have Jewish root, in Christ Jesus.  Anyone, any heathen born of God has Jewish root in Christ Jesus and the sure mercies of David, which is the reason God says we are all Jews of the commonwealth of Israel and heirs according to the promises. Not by flesh, but by being in Christ.

Revelation 22:16

He is the Root that makes us Jews. This word Root is the same word as in Romans 11:18. Christ is that root of the Olive Tree that we are grafted into, assuring we are not only chosen sons of God, and heirs of the inheritance of sons, but are nourished by Him.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 21, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: Tony Warren
They "do" have Jewish root, in Christ Jesus.  Anyone, any heathen born of God has Jewish root in Christ Jesus and the sure mercies of David, which is the reason God says we are all Jews of the commonwealth of Israel and heirs according to the promises. Not by flesh, but by being in Christ.

A Jewish Christian I talked about still does not believe Jewish root in Christ Jesus. He insisted that Gentiles is not a correct meaning of Hebrew word, GUYM. He said that it only concerns the descendants of Abraham scattered all over the world.  Not non-Israel "Gentiles." He advised that we would give up our "Roman roots" and cling to our "kinsman redeemer rather than false Greco-Roman universal Redeemer. I felt his position is confusion.

I like to give you the opportunity to read the article He asked me to read here here. (http://www.hope-of-israel.org/unfortunateword.html)  I never heard such hatred against "non-Jews" Gentiles like this from someone who claim to be Jewish-Christian before.   
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Tony Warren on September 21, 2017, 01:15:46 PM
>>>
I like to give you the opportunity to read the article He asked me to read here here. (http://www.hope-of-israel.org/unfortunateword.html)  I never heard such hatred against "non-Jews" Gentiles like this from someone who claim to be Jewish-Christian before.
<<<

Hi, I'm off to do something else now, but I will check it out maybe tomorrow or Sunday. But my sense is that it's the same old genealogical pride in justifications/rationalizations.  But will try to have an open mind.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 21, 2017, 01:34:11 PM
Thank you Tony. Looking forward to hear your perspective on this. I, too, tried to have open mind but something still bothered me about his doctrine.  I do not think Christ is saving "Gentiles" based on DNA (ie. Jewish-root/descendant of Abraham/Northern Ten Tribes of Israel).
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Lieberman on September 21, 2017, 06:48:54 PM
I will check it out maybe tomorrow or Sunday. But my sense is that it's the same old genealogical pride in justifications/rationalizations. 

 :iagree: That's exactly what it is.  Don't waste your time Tony as it's so obviously unsound that it's really not worth the effort to debunk it. No one with a education level past 5th grade who reads it is going to fall for his line of reasoning about the gentiles or nations. He uses all types of twisted logic and in his attempt to justify his self-admiration of being Jewish. 
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: George on September 22, 2017, 01:00:56 AM
Lieberman, as someone born a Jew, you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm sure your people look at you as a traitor to the kingdom. You should be proud of your people, instead you are a puppet for those who attempt to wrongly replace your heritage with themselves.

Matt. 27:3
"Then Judas, who delivered him up, seeing that he had been condemned, filled with remorse, returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders," DT

In the end, are you not like Judas to turn on your own people?

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 22, 2017, 01:16:26 AM
Quote from: Lieberman
Don't waste your time Tony as it's so obviously unsound that it's really not worth the effort to debunk it.

I respectfully disagree, Lieberman.  While I disagree with Jewish Christian's doctrine, there are some interesting points that I would like to know what is Tony's perspective on these.  Maybe he can give us few points for further studying.  We are not asking for exhaustive study, through. 

   
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Lieberman on September 22, 2017, 03:11:12 AM
Lieberman, as someone born a Jew, you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm sure your people look at you as a traitor to the kingdom.

Actually they don't, since most of my people are right here in this forum and are called children of God. We don't think political lies are justified for the good of the nation. We know lies are lies. We don't think politics will change the world, we don't think that Israel will have a messiah come to rule in Jerusalem, we don't think that the Muslims are more evil than anyone else, or that Trump is the new Savior of America. We are the children of truth, not political rhetoric. We follow Christ, not our own personal lineage, or the doctrines of Dr John Walvoord, or whatever flavor of the month comes up. We are actual people of the kingdom, rather than just repeat again and again that the Jews are. Jews are born of the spirit, not of the flesh. In that Spirit, we are all one people, no matter what nation we are from. Tony has explained this to you a hundred times.

Colossians 3:11-15
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful".

Beside from those supporting race baiting, marching along side Nazi and white supremacists or silencing the truth, the Christians here are my people because we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are the only holy nation, a united family all interested in the unadulterated truth, rather than left wing, right wing, white, black, Republican, Democrat, Dispensational or Amillennial, Antisemitic or Zionist rhetoric like you and others post. My people are Christ's people, not born after the flesh but after the spirit.

Matthew 1:21
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

All those who are his people, are my people. All those not his people, are not my people. I witness and mourn for them just as my brother and apostle Paul witnessed and mourned for them. He is included as my people also and he too received anger from those who think like you do. What you would call, his own people.


Quote
You should be proud of your people,

With few exceptions, I am. For God has blessed them with the spirit of truth to distinguish between bias and unbiased, truth and rhetoric, Jew and Gentile.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Granny on September 22, 2017, 04:39:38 AM
With few exceptions, I am. For God has blessed them with the spirit of truth to distinguish between bias and unbiased, truth and rhetoric, Jew and Gentile.

 :God:Bl-U: And your people love you Lieberman.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Larry on September 22, 2017, 05:34:53 AM
Everyone knows what the salvation of the Gentiles is, I see no reason to have to address one quack (excuse my language) who doesn't believe in Gentiles salvation. We've got bigger fish to fry, so to speak. That's like me saying I believe the Egyptians are the real Jews. Who's going to listen to me and who needs to go out and rebuke this? No one. This author is clearly an anomaly. Someone off the beaten path.



Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Melanie on September 22, 2017, 07:15:41 PM
Quote
You should be proud of your people,

With few exceptions, I am. For God has blessed them with the spirit of truth to distinguish between bias and unbiased, truth and rhetoric, Jew and Gentile.


 :amen:
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Rich Aikers on September 23, 2017, 04:21:28 AM

A Jewish Christian insisted that the Gentiles are heathens as I defined it, wasn't biblical because he believe that the Gentiles who God save are the ones who have Jewish Roots as result from the dispersion of Northern Ten Tribes of Israel that were mixed with the heathens.  He does not believe the heathen Gentiles can be part of Christian Churches unless they first have Jewish root.

I believe that God can save any heathens Gentiles regardless of their Jewish/roots/nations/background, etc. 

So who is right? And why?

Certainly not him. He isn't making much sense at all. I doubt that you could carry on an intelligent conversation with him because he doesn't accept God's word.  God says there is neither Jew nor Greek, they are all one in Christ.  That settles it. I guess he totally dismisses the salvation of the Ethiopian Eunuch, so again talking with him is like talking to the air. Is he going to attempt to prove the Ethiopian was actually a Jew dispersed years before? It's crazy talk.  He's not going to receive anything you give in scripture as credible. As Tony said, if the bible is not their authority, how can you come to any agreement with them on anything? It will always be a matter of private interpretations or his word against yours. Shake the dust of your feet off if that is the case. That's my advice, because it's like trying to convince a Catholic that the Pope isn't like god on earth. It's not going to happen. God is the only one who can draw such people from their delusion. 
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Rich Aikers on September 23, 2017, 05:33:28 AM
  While I disagree with Jewish Christian's doctrine, there are some interesting points that I would like to know what is Tony's perspective on these. 

 

Erik, which point do you find interesting? Let's discuss it.

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Chicago Bear on September 23, 2017, 06:28:35 AM
You should be proud of your people,

With few exceptions, I am. For God has blessed them with the spirit of truth to distinguish between bias and unbiased, truth and rhetoric, Jew and Gentile.

 :God:Bl-U:  :iagree: Diane, a black woman is my people, Erik a white man is my people, Lieberman a Jewish man is my people. Peng Bao a Chinese man is my people, Spanish, Turkish, Indian, as long as they are in Christ they are all Israel and all my people.

Let me just add this because I did read the article and it lacks an unbiased examination and intelligent scholarship.

It is so sad that this man, and also people like John, George, Bram, Fred, Aquatic, and the rest of the angry peanut gallery, see things in terms of us against them, and in terms of race and national pride. They just never seem to understand that it's not about physical nations like Israel or Egypt, America and Iran, nor about what political party sins the most, or about the greater of two evils, race baiting, etc., it's about the divine truth and work in Christ.

This author like so many in our day is plainly full of himself, drunk on his own sense of superiority, just as Israel was. He thinks his racial makeup is the end all of salvation and deliverance of Israel by God. Like so many today he's brainwashed and has been blinded by God, and that's all there is to it.

The only question is, is he trying to convince you of his version of truth, or are you trying to convince him by the spirit of truth. Because his gospel is not the gospel of Christ. Neither are the political and nationalist gospels today, or the financial gospels or the braggadocious movements, are of Christ. They all say they are, but none are.

As for this man, any gospel that eliminates Gentiles or non-Jews from salvation is plainly not a gospel of Christ, but one of Devils. I would have nothing to do with it. The Devil is here for one purpose. To lie, blasphemy, seduce and deceive those who will not listen to the words of the bible that Jews are who God says they are.

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Revelation 3:9

The gospel of Christ makes all believers Jews and all those who deny it blasphemers.

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29

The question is not if he has a good point, but why does he blasphemy the word of God?

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9

God knows, sometimes man does not.

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: David Knoles on September 23, 2017, 07:53:34 AM
While I don't agree with the article by Arnold Kennedy about Gentiles (it's ridiculous), I do agree with his overall understanding about the Jewish people being a special people set apart from the heathen nations. They are a special people and that can't be taken from them.

Deuteronomy 7:6
"For a holy people art thou unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be unto him a people for a possession, above all the peoples that are upon the face of the earth".

You can't take that away from the Jews.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: aquatic on September 23, 2017, 10:13:05 AM
Chicago Bear,
Looks hypocritical when you specifically call out 5-6 of our names and in the same sentence accuse them of an" US versus them" mentality. Does that really help anything when you single out names? You aren't the only one that does this.  Not only that but accuse "us" of not understanding the work of Christ.

I forgive you
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Chicago Bear on September 23, 2017, 11:47:50 AM
Chicago Bear,
Looks hypocritical when you specifically call out 5-6 of our names and in the same sentence accuse them of an" US versus them" mentality. Does that really help anything when you single out names?

Obviously you missed my point, which was that you guys are an angry peanut gallery with your eyes always on the world, its morality (not the church's), its taxes, race baiting, national pride, exclusionism, physical Jews and kingdoms (Fred, George, Dan), the mammon of unrighteousness, etc. Did you ever read of the apostle Paul worrying about such matters? Did you hear him justifying the Jewish leaders simply because He was a Pharisee, or they were of his former party? He left that to the people with their eyes on the world, and he placed his on a government ruled from heaven.

And of course, you still miss the point. It's not about us vs them in politics or race, it's about us vs them in the church and its enemies. Not because I don't want to pay health care for some poor soul, but because I don't want my church taking its eyes off itself and placing them on things that in the big picture don't matter. What I mean is, just as Tony said, we're never going to change the world, nor was that the job given us. We weren't called to be watchmen of the world, but to be a light of the world. We were set as watchmen of the Lord's house, and you guys (named) are so angry about the world and its politics and so busy with that agenda you don't even recognize truth when you hear it. I don't apologize for saying that, because it is the truth. When's the last time You, John, Bram or Philly Dawg posted anything that wasn't about politics, race, fake news, Trump or the liberal media? I rest my case.

It shows your mind is not on Christ but on the world and its current events. So again, it's not liberals against conservatives, Republicans against Democrats, it's that world that is against the church. We are soldiers in a army, but its not political. Why can't you and the rest of the angry peanut gallery see that without being offended? My guess is stubbornness or what my granny use to call pigheadedness.


Quote
You aren't the only one that does this.  Not only that but accuse "us" of not understanding the work of Christ.

You clearly don't, since you think it is to support the wild (and some might say crazy) theories going around the internet, the lies of the radical right. Even as others support the wild and crazy theories and lies of the radical left. What you don't understand is that they are both of the same unrepentant groups under rule of Satan. They both actually think that they are doing good in the world. The only real good we can do is spread the gospel of Christ, not Trump, Obama or Clinton. Christians aren't on either side, they are on the side of truth, which is in Christ. I don't think Trump is a man of God anymore than I thought Obama, Clinton or George Bush was. But they are appointed leaders. It's like the Scribes vs the Pharisees, they were those appointed to lead, but they are both cut out of the same cloth. It's foolish for me to side with one when they are both the same enemies of God. That's like some Christians here siding with Israel because they say they love God. Does that mean Israel is God's anointed people. Those who know different say no, and for their good work they get called antisemitic. The anger of these people is no different than Yours, Bram's, John's or Fred over liberals, immigrants or obamacare. Your eyes are on the wrong place. I do not apologize for saying that.


Quote
I forgive you

Thank you, but I would much rather prefer you open your eyes and turn them away from the world and put them on understanding the real work of Christ. The work I say you don't understand we all should be doing. I'll change my mind when I open my bible and see Jesus ranting about having to pay Roman taxes, or Peter angry because the government allowed an Ethiopian into the country, or Paul upset because the liberals of his country wouldn't listen and stop leading the Jews down a sinful path. But of course, they had more pressing priorities.

Now please don't continue this, let's stay on topic, which is the salvation of the Gentiles. Gentiles being liberals, conservatives, blacks, whites, rich, poor, Romans, Greeks and yes, even Mexicans.

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on September 23, 2017, 12:58:54 PM
Wow!  :amen:
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 23, 2017, 02:21:10 PM

Erik, which point do you find interesting? Let's discuss it.


Okay, for example:
 
Quote from: Arnold Kennedy, "That Unfortunate Word "GENTILE


Let us look at some Old Testament Scriptures where the word Gowy, Goi or Goyim are used. If we apply the logic concerning “Gentiles” for these words, we can see the ridiculous conclusions that could be reached. Remember that Goi and Ethnos are used of Israel as well as of other races.


Genesis 12:1,2: "Now the LORD said unto Abram...and I will make of thee a great nation (goi)"


Genesis 17:5: "A father of many nations (goyim) have I made thee."


Did YEHOVAH God make a great non-Israel “Gentile” nation out of Abraham and did Abraham father many Gentiles? Was that great nation other than Israel? Did not Israel have many tribes which are sometimes referred to as “nations” (goyim)?

Why did Arnold insisted that non-Israel "Gentile" nation can't come from Abraham since he did not father the Gentiles? Pride? Blindness? Misunderstood?


Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 23, 2017, 02:31:25 PM
Quote from: Chicago Bear
Thank you, but I would much rather prefer you open your eyes and turn them away from the world and put them on understanding the real work of Christ. The work I say you don't understand we all should be doing. I'll change my mind when I open my bible and see Jesus ranting about having to pay Roman taxes, or Peter angry because the government allowed an Ethiopian into the country, or Paul upset because the liberals of his country wouldn't listen and stop leading the Jews down a sinful path. But of course, they had more pressing priorities.Now please don't continue this, let's stay on topic, which is the salvation of the Gentiles. Gentiles being liberals, conservatives, blacks, whites, rich, poor, Romans, Greeks and yes, even Mexicans.

I totally understand your frustration.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 23, 2017, 02:48:19 PM
Quote
I do agree with his overall understanding about the Jewish people being a special people set apart from the heathen nations. They are a special people and that can't be taken from them.Deuteronomy 7:6"For a holy people art thou unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be unto him a people for a possession, above all the peoples that are upon the face of the earth".You can't take that away from the Jews.

Actually, you need to compare the verse with the rest of Scripture:

Deu 7:6
[6]  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2
[2]  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

And Peter speaking to the New Testament Congregation, said the same way:

1Pe 2:9
[9]  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Point being, God has chosen people, Jews and Gentiles, out of all nations, including national Israel, to be His Holy People, and a peculiar people, starting with Old Testament congregation and then New Testament congregation. God is talking about His Covenant Israel which is a holy nation.  Not Middle Eastern nation of Israel.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Reformed Baptist on September 24, 2017, 01:10:02 AM
Obviously you missed my point, which was that you guys are an angry peanut gallery with your eyes always on the world, its morality (not the church's), its taxes, race baiting, national pride, exclusionism, physical Jews and kingdoms (Fred, George, Dan), the mammon of unrighteousness, etc.

And of course, you still miss the point. It's not about us vs them in politics or race, it's about us vs them in the church and its enemies. Not because I don't want to pay health care for some poor soul, but because I don't want my church taking its eyes off itself and placing them on things that in the big picture don't matter. What I mean is, just as Tony said, we're never going to change the world, nor was that the job given us. We weren't called to be watchmen of the world, but to be a light of the world. We were set as watchmen of the Lord's house, and you guys (named) are so angry about the world and its politics and so busy with that agenda you don't even recognize truth when you hear it. I don't apologize for saying that, because it is the truth. When's the last time You, John, Bram or Philly Dawg posted anything that wasn't about politics, race, fake news, Trump or the liberal media? I rest my case.

 :GoodPopst: Awesome post Bear! Jesus put it this way.

Matthew 6:21-22
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Rich Aikers on September 24, 2017, 04:35:06 AM


Okay, for example:

Did YEHOVAH God make a great non-Israel “Gentile” nation out of Abraham and did Abraham father many Gentiles?

Yes. The great nation that is the Gentile church established by Christ, and promised to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ.

I Peter 2:9
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

And who do we think governs this mighty nation?

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."


Quote
Was that great nation other than Israel?

It was Israel, but not Israel of the flesh who rejected Christ as ruler over them.


Quote
Did not Israel have many tribes which are sometimes referred to as “nations” (goyim)?


Of coursem, because thety were individual groups and families (which nations means), the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin, etc.


Quote
Why did Arnold insisted that non-Israel "Gentile" nation can't come from Abraham since he did not father the Gentiles? Pride? Blindness? Misunderstood?

Because he starts out with a assumption that Gentiles are actually Jews and then tries to find support for that. The reason is obviously because in his vanity he doesn't want to admit that non-Jews are saved by Christ as well? This contradicts everything Christ stood for. So his premise is not true, and so everything he says after that based on that premise must also be judged untrue. The false premise is his understanding that the word translated Gentiles means dispersed Jews. That conclusion is not based on any sound bible study or anything the bible says, but his own subjective and biased reasoning.

Genesis 10:5
"By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."

From the very beginning in Genesis we see the word translated Gentiles referring to the nations, not the Jewish people. Both words there Gentiles and Nations are the very same word gowy, referring to the nations of the world and not Jews.


Quote
Why did Arnold insisted that non-Israel "Gentile" nation can't come from Abraham since he did not father the Gentiles?

That's a good question but one that is not difficult to answer. He is obviously defining Jews by flesh or direct lineage, a method that God's word plainly says is wrong. So why would anyone listen to this man when he clearly is not listening to God?

Romans 2:25-29
 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Beware those who deny the word. Does he not understand what "he is not a Jew by flesh" means? Or what the uncircumcision being made the circumcision means? Or what "all Israel are not really Israel, but in Isaac shall thy seed be called," must  means? It means there are no Gentiles when the seed of Abraham, which is Christ, makes them Jews.


Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Rich Aikers on September 24, 2017, 04:39:14 AM

 :GoodPopst: Awesome post Bear! Jesus put it this way.

Matthew 6:21-22
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

 :ditto:  Time for Christians to be Christians and not political hacks. To stand for truth and not political parties. To support the conversion of sinners souls rather than their political ideologies. As the false teaching by Arnold Kennedy proves,

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/unfortunateword.html

We have our work cut out for us. It only proves, Satan is the great deceiver. Look what he did to the nation of Israel and today's churches that support that same doctrine.

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Reformer on September 29, 2017, 05:24:34 AM
Tony has addressed this word ethnos many times over the years. Bottom line is that it means a family, race or ethnic groups, and by extension different families, nations, races or ethnic groups. The Bible uses it extensively to speak of the non-jews or foreigners with relationship to Israel or the Jews.

Eph 2:11
 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 08, 2017, 01:56:11 PM

Quote from: Tony Warren
Hi, I'm off to do something else now, but I will check it out maybe tomorrow or Sunday. But my sense is that it's the same old genealogical pride in justifications/rationalizations.  But will try to have an open mind.

Hello Tony, while I was waiting for your thought on the link I posted earlier, I was still in a debate with "Dannyfortruth" from other forum who believed that he knows you and your doctrine. I tried to explain to him that God did have salvation plan for heathen Gentiles after the Jews (and the fall of old testament congregation.).  He still denies this saying that the Gentiles who are saved are the ones with Jewish roots from "lost tribes of Israel".  Here is his response to me this morning. (Note: sorry I could not copy and paste his post directly from another forum due without a massive format tag conflicts, so I screenshot the post instead.

(http://tribulationsigns.com/images/post.png)


I do not agree with him but I did read with KJV on verses he brought up:

Jas 1:1
[1]  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

It looks like Dannyfortruth tried to link this verse to the "Israelite foreigners," the descendants of the dispersed lost tribes of Israel.  I believe the verse has to do with early church (mostly Jewish) fled from Old Testament Congregation bringing Gospel into the Heathen Gentiles, correct?  But I like to clarify who and why are the Twelve Tribes that was scattered aboard after the Cross?

1Pe 1:1-2
[1]  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[2]  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I believe this must be referred new Christians (early church) fleeing to the Gentile nations from Israel. Not the descendants of the "dispersed" lost tribes of Israel.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Puritan Heart on October 09, 2017, 05:25:10 AM
Hello Erik,

From the very first sentence of this individuals response, ie; that you are responding *in the light of Greco Roman Christianity* through the entirety of his retort, it is fraught with error.  The man is very obviously involved in some faux Messianic Jewish dogma and also, quite confused.  Sad!!

It is worthy of response, however, the format in which you presented it makes it impossible to quote for reply.  Please may I ask that you redo the post, if possible..?

Thanking you in advance,

Alexandra
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: George on October 09, 2017, 09:16:22 AM
He still denies this saying that the Gentiles who are saved are the ones with Jewish roots from "lost tribes of Israel".

Mark 6:11
"And whatsoever place shall not receive you nor hear you, departing thence, shake off the dust which is under your feet for a testimony to them".
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Wcjciech Semkowski on October 10, 2017, 08:28:39 PM
Chicago Bear,
Looks hypocritical when you specifically call out 5-6 of our names and in the same sentence accuse them of an" US versus them" mentality. Does that really help anything when you single out names?

Obviously you missed my point, which was that you guys are an angry peanut gallery with your eyes always on the world, its morality (not the church's), its taxes, race baiting, national pride, exclusionism, physical Jews and kingdoms (Fred, George, Dan), the mammon of unrighteousness, etc. Did you ever read of the apostle Paul worrying about such matters? Did you hear him justifying the Jewish leaders simply because He was a Pharisee, or they were of his former party? He left that to the people with their eyes on the world, and he placed his on a government ruled from heaven.

And of course, you still miss the point. It's not about us vs them in politics or race, it's about us vs them in the church and its enemies. Not because I don't want to pay health care for some poor soul, but because I don't want my church taking its eyes off itself and placing them on things that in the big picture don't matter. What I mean is, just as Tony said, we're never going to change the world, nor was that the job given us. We weren't called to be watchmen of the world, but to be a light of the world. We were set as watchmen of the Lord's house, and you guys (named) are so angry about the world and its politics and so busy with that agenda you don't even recognize truth when you hear it. I don't apologize for saying that, because it is the truth. When's the last time You, John, Bram or Philly Dawg posted anything that wasn't about politics, race, fake news, Trump or the liberal media? I rest my case.

It shows your mind is not on Christ but on the world and its current events. So again, it's not liberals against conservatives, Republicans against Democrats, it's that world that is against the church. We are soldiers in a army, but its not political. Why can't you and the rest of the angry peanut gallery see that without being offended?

 :'( I almost cried when I read this. Excellent post. It's so true about both sides with no leadership at all. 

"Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 11, 2017, 01:58:23 AM
It is worthy of response, however, the format in which you presented it makes it impossible to quote for reply.  Please may I ask that you redo the post, if possible..?

Hi. That would be time-consuming to clean up tag mess when I copy and paste post from another forum.  I tried to use no format feature but did not work.  I guess you just type what he wrote and then write your response. 

Other than that, I agree that the person has Jewish pride that he can not really understand who the Gentiles/Nations are that the Lord talked about.   
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Puritan Heart on October 11, 2017, 04:15:10 AM
It is worthy of response, however, the format in which you presented it makes it impossible to quote for reply.  Please may I ask that you redo the post, if possible..?

Hi. That would be time-consuming to clean up tag mess when I copy and paste post from another forum.  I tried to use no format feature but did not work.  I guess you just type what he wrote and then write your response. 

Other than that, I agree that the person has Jewish pride that he can not really understand who the Gentiles/Nations are that the Lord talked about.   

Hi Erik,

No problem... I do understand, and thank you for your reply. 

I realise you requested a reply from Tony, but if you do not mind, I have some thoughts I would like to present ...

Alexandra



Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Dryfus on October 11, 2017, 07:11:22 AM
I realise you requested a reply from Tony, but if you do not mind, I have some thoughts I would like to present ...

Alexandra

Why do you have to ask permission, it's a open discussion forum I presume. I would like to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: ZeroCool on October 11, 2017, 09:21:20 AM
Tony has addressed this word ethnos many times over the years. Bottom line is that it means a family, race or ethnic groups, and by extension different families, nations, races or ethnic groups. The Bible uses it extensively to speak of the non-jews or foreigners with relationship to Israel or the Jews.

This man takes a known doctrine, attempts to dissect it by showing something that every theologian knows, and then proclaims victory. Yes, the word can mean the Jews also because the Jews were a nation.  Thus the word is translated nation as well as Gentiles. This teacher goes on to show that "ethnos" is used in Scripture of both Jews and non-Jews. Then he claims by this the word means Jews. That's circular reasoning. The word means nation, which could be Jewish or Non Jewish, and this is decided by translators by the context. Here are two examples.


 Mark 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

This word nation could only mean a Gentile nation.

 Galatian 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

This word nation could only refer to the Jewish Nation. But this guy makes the leap that both instances must mean a Jewish nation, which is not supportable, as is most of what he says on that site. The truth is, the word nations is translated gentiles when the context shows that it refers to non-Jewish nations.

 Luke 21:23-24 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So his beliefs are not supported by people educated in the languages, it's just his own personal views. genos can mean nation or gentiles. Him saying it can't doesn't prove anything.
 

Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Eugene Coburn on October 11, 2017, 01:53:06 PM

 :'( I almost cried when I read this. Excellent post. It's so true about both sides with no leadership at all. 

This happens to me when there is a post that I know I don't necessarily want to hear, but I also know is true. It guilts me out, but I believe that I am a better Christian person for it. 

God Bless all on the Mountain Retreat.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Eugene Coburn on October 11, 2017, 01:59:33 PM
So his beliefs are not supported by people educated in the languages, it's just his own personal views. genos can mean nation or gentiles. Him saying it can't doesn't prove anything.

I know. His whole argument and assertion has the Bible in effect saying not for the Jew only, but for the Jew as well. God doesn't say that, he says the Jew and the Greek. The whole argument is silly. I wouldn't argue with him.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Eugene Coburn on October 11, 2017, 02:03:40 PM
Thus the word is translated nation as well as Gentiles. This teacher goes on to show that "ethnos" is used in Scripture of both Jews and non-Jews. Then he claims by this the word means Jews. That's circular reasoning. The word means nation, which could be Jewish or Non Jewish, and this is decided by translators by the context. Here are two examples.


 Mark 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

This word nation could only mean a Gentile nation.

I agree, but excuse my ignorance, what is  Syrophenician? Never heard of it.
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Tony Warren on October 12, 2017, 04:07:32 AM
>>>
I agree, but excuse my ignorance, what is  Syrophenician? Never heard of it.
<<<

A Syrophoenician is a Greek person from the area of Syria and Phoenicia (Thus Syro-phoenician). Syria and Phoenicia are the same area, and was a province of the Romans.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Salvation of the Gentiles
Post by: Tony Warren on October 12, 2017, 05:59:34 AM
>>>
His whole argument and assertion has the Bible in effect saying not for the Jew only, but for the Jew as well.
<<<

Yes. In a nutshell.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"