The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Frank Mortimer on August 02, 2016, 02:03:34 AM

Title: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Frank Mortimer on August 02, 2016, 02:03:34 AM
John:
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There was a time years ago when this forum delved deeply into comparative analysis of the Bible to uncover the deep spiritual truths. There was no other forum like it. I think it still is better than the others but is in steady decline.

I was thinking on what John said in another thread, and I have decided to start this thread to expound on it with my thoughts. I don't think that the forum is in decline at all, I think that intelligence in general and Christianity in particular is in decline, not only here, but all over the world, nation and the web. To me it's proven by nearly all of the good Reformed Websites closing up shop, disappearing from the Internet. Sure there are a few left, white Horse Inn, etc., but there were literally hundreds just a few years ago. Now there are a few blogs and almost none of them defer to the Bible alone.

Here's my theory that I am open to hear your replies, disagreements or rebuttals. I believe that the reason for the decline of Christianity (faithful Christianity) and the rampant moral and spiritual decay in our world is that Satan has been loosed. The defenders of the faith who were once a great army are now only a few, and I don't believe it has anything to do with management of forums, but with the changing attitudes in our society. From an attitude of service to one of being served. Godly virtues are almost non-existent.

Amos 8:11
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

Is this time upon us? I believe that it is. No one wants to hear the word of God anymore, it's all politics, name calling, state gambling, Chest beating, different lusts and seeking fame and fortune over everything else. My point is that there is a reason for this, and it seems to me to be because Satan has been set loose in the world and has deceived the people of the world. Nothing is stable anymore. The spirit of change in the forum is simply a representation of the spirit of change in the church. Foolish, willful thinking, lacking common sense, it all fits in a world that is moved by strong delusion sent from the Lord. Your thoughts?  :thinker:


Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dryfus on August 02, 2016, 03:00:36 AM
There is no decline of Christianity, Christianity cannot decline. The church is continuing and cannot be brought down. Just because you cannot see it doesn't mean anything except that the church is an invisible institution. The well received book entitled, The Invisible Church, has suggested that increasingly often Christians are using less formal avenues to access their faith, such as staying at home with their families. I don't always agree with the pessimism I hear at this site.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Terrell Meyer on August 02, 2016, 11:38:54 AM
It's not pessimism, it's a statement of fact. The church is declining. The very fact that you and many others cannot recognize that is evidence of the cover that is over the children of God that they would think the church is healthy. The church is unhealthy and has been steadily in decline since the early 60's.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Joanne on August 02, 2016, 01:43:10 PM
There is no decline of Christianity, I don't always agree with the pessimism I hear at this site.

Dryfus, you don't know what you are talking about. Get your head out of the sand and face facts. Anyone who can't see the decay of the church is blind.

Here's an interesting article I read last week about just this issue.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Erik Diamond on August 02, 2016, 02:30:53 PM
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There is no decline of Christianity, Christianity cannot decline. The church is continuing and cannot be brought down.

You misunderstood what Church on earth is like.  Do you realize that the church always had TWO groups of people:

Professed Christians v.s. Election
Wicked Kings of the Earth v.s. Godly Kings of the Earth
Wicked Merchants of the Earth v.s. Godly Merchants of the Earth
Many are called v.s. Few are chosen
Lot's Sons in Law v.s. Lot
Corporate Church where Abomination can stand v.s. Eternal Church where Abomination can not stand
Blind lead the blind v.s. sheep hear the voice and follow the Shepard
Five Foolish Virgins  v.s. Five Wise Virgins               

Dryfus, what you have said sounds alot like Lot's sons in law.  People like you deny that the church is not that bad, will never fall, or never come under judgment, etc.  They are blind because they can not see the iniquity for what it is that is growing in the church.

Gen 19:14-15 KJV
[14]  And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
[15]  And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.


Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformed Baptist on August 03, 2016, 04:59:44 PM
There is no decline of Christianity, Christianity cannot decline. The church is continuing and cannot be brought down.

Same thing Israel said.  The congregation is ever continuing and cannot be brought down. Guess what? It was brought down, and by God Himself, because of their sin.

Isaiah 42:24
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law."

When will we ever learn  :S_Confused:
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on August 04, 2016, 08:43:54 AM
There is no decline of Christianity, Christianity cannot decline.

 I don't always agree with the pessimism I hear at this site.

 Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Hear what the Spirit says to the churches! This time is a trial of faith for the churches and only those who overcome will prevail through. To claim there is no decline of Christianity is to be naive. To claim Christianity cannot decline is to be naive. To claim we cannot go through great tribulation and must be raptured first is to be naive. To say the church is continuing and cannot be brought down is true in a certain sense, and untrue in another. In the same way that Israel cannot be brought down, but also was brought down. Depends upon which Israel we speak of. Likewise, it depends upon what church we speak of. The corporate body or the spiritual body.

The decline is real, the fall is real and the departing from the faith is real. The reason many cannot see it is because they are part of it. They don't recognize abomination standing in the church nor the false Christs nor the famine. They are under the spell of strong delusion that blinds them to abomination and fornication and the man of sin.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: ChelleH on August 04, 2016, 02:02:46 PM
I completely agree that Christianity is declining (rapidly) in America; or is it the influence of Christianity that is declining? I have often wondered if this is an actual evidence yet of end times or Satan's release? Hasn't there always been just a remnant of the truly saved in the corporate churches? What is the state of "Christianity" in the Middle East today where the church actually began? I don't know the statistics but I don't think Christianity is the biggest influence there. Already in the book Revelation we read the warnings against false teaching and apostasy and we know the result. I think also of Europe, the stronghold of the Reformation and just a couple hundred years later Charles Spurgeon was warning of the downgrade. Is this just the nature of what happens to all churches? I think the time has come for the American brand of Christianity to go down the same path. I'm not even sure it is such a bad thing, there are an awful lot of people who are trusting in their claims of belief and their Christian heritage, not Christ alone. They don't even bother to go to a church much less read a Bible and seek out the truth, no wonder even the Christian influence is going. Paul warns us, Peter warns us, John warns us, Jude warns us- the scriptures warn us- about being aware of false teachers and apostasy; it has been part of Christianity since the beginning. Our American churches are full of both, again, is this end times or just the consequences of man-made religion?

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all your discussions on this site, I look forward to reading everybody's contributions on every topic.  Two years ago I had to move away from my one true Bible study sister in Christ and I have yet to find anyone here who wants to study the Word alone and not just read the popular books of the day.

 I am sorry for not including scripture quotes, I am not that saavy yet, I just figured out how to post a simple reply.(and I couldn't even get a smiley face!!!)
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Rich Aikers on August 04, 2016, 05:19:42 PM
I completely agree that Christianity is declining (rapidly) in America; or is it the influence of Christianity that is declining? I have often wondered if this is an actual evidence yet of end times or Satan's release? Hasn't there always been just a remnant of the truly saved in the corporate churches? What is the state of "Christianity" in the Middle East today where the church actually began? I don't know the statistics but I don't think Christianity is the biggest influence there. Already in the book Revelation we read the warnings against false teaching and apostasy and we know the result. I think also of Europe, the stronghold of the Reformation and just a couple hundred years later Charles Spurgeon was warning of the downgrade. Is this just the nature of what happens to all churches? I think the time has come for the American brand of Christianity to go down the same path. I'm not even sure it is such a bad thing, there are an awful lot of people who are trusting in their claims of belief and their Christian heritage, not Christ alone. They don't even bother to go to a church much less read a Bible and seek out the truth, no wonder even the Christian influence is going. Paul warns us, Peter warns us, John warns us, Jude warns us- the scriptures warn us- about being aware of false teachers and apostasy; it has been part of Christianity since the beginning. Our American churches are full of both, again, is this end times or just the consequences of man-made religion?

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all your discussions on this site, I look forward to reading everybody's contributions on every topic.  Two years ago I had to move away from my one true Bible study sister in Christ and I have yet to find anyone here who wants to study the Word alone and not just read the popular books of the day.

 I am sorry for not including scripture quotes, I am not that saavy yet, I just figured out how to post a simple reply.(and I couldn't even get a smiley face!!!)

Welcome ChelleH,
    Good thoughts. I think that the difference between the various declines in the state of the churches that came before is that at no time was the faith so worldwide, and then so obviously abandoned worldwide in such a manner that there are virtually no truly faithful churches left. I haven't had one truly faithful Christian tell me that there is a faithful church in their area that they can attend. And they have cars and are willing to travel great distances to attend. I've had people tell me there are faithful churches, but when I find out what they believe, I find that they are not faithful Christians. The dearth is worldwide, not just in a local area. That's what's different.

Even in the times of the dissipation and degeneracy of the churches in Asia (middle east) and other bad times like the fall of Rome there were faithful churches and no church would presume to allow homosexuals in it. This era is a whole different generation of false teachers and tribulation from what went before. Not only do people not attend church, the people have no real love of God that was so prevalent of old. Just lip service. There is so much iniquity worldwide that we tolerate these false teachings, including Roman Catholicism, and even support many modern false ideas in many cases.

Matthew 24:11-13
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

I don't think that this can be said of any era before our time because I do not think that this anti-god sentiment can get much worse. To me, that means the end has got to be near. I know people have said that before, but without the facts of a thoroughly decaying church throughout the world, not just in this city or that town.


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What is the state of "Christianity" in the Middle East today where the church actually began?

The churches of Asia of course no longer exist because they were warned of unfaithfulness, and the gospel that started there spread to the world where it became even greater than those 7 churches. The fall of those 7 churches pale in comparison to the fall of the thousands upon thousands worldwide today. All the churches of all the nations are slowly falling. Just as with all the congregations of Israel, so with all the congregations of the nations. The two don't contrast, they mirror each other in this decay and fall of God's people. Yet as before, a remnant shall be saved who endure to the end.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: ChelleH on August 04, 2016, 11:14:40 PM
Rich,

Thanks for the welcome!
 I appreciate the way you laid that out, worldwide apostasy after having had the truth present in all nations is a bit unnerving. I use that  word in the sense of great sadness and amazement that the falling away and lack of desire for truth is so widespread. It sure does seem to point to the end, and Satan being loosed, which is what Frank's original thoughts were.  His description of the state of affairs in the world and sadly the unbelievably great deception amongst the church are too, too accurate. But again I go back to all the verses that warn from the very beginning of the false teachers,( Matt 24: 11-13, Matt 7:15, Acts 20:29, Gal. 4:17, all of 2 Peter!, 1 John 4:1 and all of Jude.) It has always been this way, the gospel comes, some believe and soon after that the false teachers invade. We are just witnessing it worldwide now because of the internet. I think there are still the very few true believers scattered about as it has always been. Maybe the road has been a lot narrower all along than even we thought. The true believers have never fallen away, only the false and it has happened everywhere the gospel has been preached. When these churches go apostate, aren't there still the few real believers that remain? What does the loosing of Satan really look like? Is it that no one will believe the gospel at all? We know he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations but the loosing part just says, "till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season."  I've thought the end is near for quite a while now as well, but then I remind myself about all the false date setters and also of the fact that we are to be watching and waiting always (as was everyone before us commanded to be.)
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Rich Aikers on August 05, 2016, 12:34:35 AM
But again I go back to all the verses that warn from the very beginning of the false teachers,( Matt 24: 11-13, Matt 7:15, Acts 20:29, Gal. 4:17, all of 2 Peter!, 1 John 4:1 and all of Jude.) It has always been this way, the gospel comes, some believe and soon after that the false teachers invade.

I think all those warnings are what we were meant to read in order to know what we are to flee from, and how we are to know it, and how to recognize such abominations, and to be prepared and know that this was foreseen. Without such unfaithfulness and those warnings from Christ, Paul and the apostles, we might not be even attuned to the fact that what is talking place in the churches is so vile to God. Especially the way man likes to overlook things and bend rules and such. Look to the bible history for our example. Didn't God warn Israel again and again about such things, and particularly about the eventual consequences?

Jeremiah 14:14-15
"Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed."

Did all the times God warned Israel of the false teachers, prophets and leaders negate Israel's end when Christ died on the cross and the nation fell? No, it confirmed it. What the Lord had proclaimed would come because of their iniquity had come to pass. Did the children of God take heed to His warnings all the years of when the false prophets led the nation astray? No, and so eventually God's word of their total desolation came to pass. Israel just went along its merry way thinking they could never fall despite all God's words about the consequences of falsehoods, right up until the very day that they did fall. That's a lesson for us. Very few people learn anything from God's lessons with Israel. But they should. Because the same thing is happening in God's congregation after the cross that happened before it. Little apostasies that no one learns from, until finally the end comes.


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We are just witnessing it worldwide now because of the internet.


Sure, that's part of it. But that doesn't change the big picture. Witnessing it doesn't change it, nor did it create or help it, it simply gives us quicker knowledge of it. The churches are not becoming unfaithful because of the Internet, the churches were becoming unfaithful for a long, long time. We may have greater knowledge of unfaithfulness, but the cart doesn't come before the horse. The unfaithfulness came first, just as it has done since the dawn of time. Just as God predicted. God knew about the Internet, cameras, television, broadcasts and whatever else we use to get information quickly.  God didn't say knowledge would spread by horse and buggy, He said iniquity would abound. How we learn it abounds is not the point, the point is that it grows and the love of God shrinks and Satan would muster his "worldwide" army against us. The fact that we will know this by being able to get news quickly, I'm sure God took that into consideration. He knows all ahead of time.


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I think there are still the very few true believers scattered about as it has always been. Maybe the road has been a lot narrower all along than even we thought. The true believers have never fallen away,

We all agree with that.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on August 05, 2016, 01:58:25 AM
>>>
What does the loosing of Satan really look like?
<<<

Luke 6:4445

Satan is a spirit, and he works within mankind. Thus we will recognize this spirit the same way we recognize those with the Spirit of God. By their fruits. Does the Spirit of God blasphemy, does it defer from authority of the word, or does it condemn truth or call it evil?

1st John 4:1

All believers are tasked to try or "TEST" the spirits, and we do that by trying their words or message by the word of God. If their word isn't in agreement with the authority (The word of God), then we should not believe that person. The spirit that is of God is true and its authority is the Word of God. That means their word is a testimony to God's word, rather than contradicts or denies it as the contrary spirit does.


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>>>
Is it that no one will believe the gospel at all?
<<<

That's an impossibility unless all God's people are no longer on earth or are Raptured, since so long as there are God's children on earth, there will be those who believe the gospel. Was that a rhetorical question?


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>>>
We know he is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations but the loosing part just says, "till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after that he must be loosed a little season."
<<<

We know a few other things. If Satan was bound specifically so that he Couldn't Deceive the Nations, then his loosing has to mean that this deception that was kept from happening (by Satan being bound), is THEN allowed to happen. This is also unquestionably confirmed by God as He informs us that Satan will then be allowed to deceive the nations, which he was kept from doing in the millennial reign:

Revelation 20:7-8

So we know that Satan was bound by Christ at the cross "so that" he could not deceive the nations that Christ would glean the chosen from to serve in His kingdom (this is the millennial or thousand year reign). After this time is ended, with Christ having gleaned all that God intends for His Kingdom, Satan is then loosed. That means that what He was bound to keep him from doing by the power of the cross until Christ's church was built from the Gentiles (nations), he's now freely allowed of God to do. So taking all that God says into consideration, Satan is bound so that the church could be built from the Gentiles/Nations, and after that he is loosed allowed to deceive. This is also as Christ also "illustrated" in the parable of His coming Kingdom:

Matthew 12:28-29

Christ is the one come to spoil (or take by conquest) the goods within this strong man's house. Satan is the strong man Christ speaks of. His goods are those deceived and under his control, whom Christ intends to save from the nations. And as Christ says, if He had the power of God to cast out devils, then this Kingdom had come. The reign of Christ had come. The point here is that Christ says there,  FIRST the strong man (Satan) had to be bound in order for Him to do this. Only then could Christ spoil his house. This is the salvation story of Revelation 20's Satan bound and the millennial reign of Christ's Kingdom in a nutshell.


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>>>
I've thought the end is near for quite a while now as well, but then I remind myself about all the false date setters
<<<

The end IS near, how near no one knows. As far as date setters, date setting has nothing to do with this discussion, the prophecy of the end times, the great Tribulation, the falling away or apostasy of the church, the loosing of Satan, the man of sin (or lawlessness) in the Holy Temple, or the abominations that lead to desolation. Your mixing apples and oranges, introducing something foreign that isn't a part of this discussion.

1st Timothy 4:1-3

People who believe the end is near are about as close to being date setters as Timothy was. Timothy is not talking about something that was taking place in His day, but something that was coming, an apostasy wherein the church would give heed to seducing spirits with doctrines of the devil. When? When these spirits are loosed from the pit along with Satan.

Revelation 16:13-14

Now the Spirit speaks expressly (Clearly, Distinctly) that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. Deceiving spirits out of the mouths of the False prophets of this Dragon (Satan). It's not like this isn't prophesied again and again and again.  It's not the same old apostasy. It's not the same old tribulation, it's worldwide apostasy and it's GREAT Tribulation, because something has been added, which is Satan has been loosed specifically for this purpose "by God!"


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>>>
and also of the fact that we are to be watching and waiting always (as was everyone before us commanded to be.)
<<<

If the warnings weren't important, God wouldn't have put so many of them in His word addressing these times and this specific issue. These testimonies are there for our learning. He wouldn't say that no one could buy and sell at this latter time except those with the mark of the beast unless there is method and message to the words. Timothy didn't stand in the latter days and declare that in the last days, perilous times were coming, if it was simply the same old thing that he saw in his own day.

2nd Timothy 3:1-7

Timothy doesn't warn of this apostasy in the last days so we could set dates, but so that we would not be caught unaware by these things coming upon the earth. It's not the same old things, it's something completely different when Satan is loosed that iniquity abounds or increases tremendously as the church is tried. What do we think is the purpose of God telling the church that both Satan will be loosed, and that he will so forth to gather the nations from all over the four corners of the earth, specifically to assault the camp of saints just prior to His second coming? Does that in any way, any way at all, sound like the same old unfaithfulness or just church business as usual? Indeed, how could it be when Satan is loosed, unrestrained that he can gather the nations in order to do this? If he was restrained in the time of the apostle Paul, and the early church, and throughout the Reformation when you say all this unfaithfulness happened before, what will be the evil when he is unrestrained or loosed?

Matthew 24:21

No need for us to guess. When Satan is loosed, it will not be the same old tribulation and falling away. It will be greater than has ever been before, nor will ever be. Because afterward, Christ returns for the remnant of His people that are left on earth.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: ChelleH on August 05, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
Thank you for those verses and explanations,  I have some more questions but I have to think on those things first.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Joe Johnson on August 05, 2016, 08:13:09 PM
There is no decline of Christianity, Christianity cannot decline.

 I don't always agree with the pessimism I hear at this site.

 Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Reformer,
  Am I to assume from this that you believe Satan is already loosed and is casting some of the church into prison that the body is being tried? Is that what you are saying? You believe that this decline is because Satan is loose? If so, my question is why are the nations not gathered together against Israel?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Laura Tomlinson on August 06, 2016, 03:51:08 AM
Joe, like Tony said, if you don't understand why Satan was bound, then you're never going to understand why or when he is loosed. If he was bound to keep the nations from attacking the nation of Israel, then he mst have been bound with sewing thread because Israel was destroyed by the nations not long after Christ went to the cross. Don't you see then that your idea doesn't make sense? If you don't understand why Satan was bound, you will never understand why he is loosed. The answer is in the book  :BibleRead:
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Laura Tomlinson on August 06, 2016, 04:23:24 AM
I've been reading this thread and I'd like to add my little bit since there is this ludicrous idea by some that the church isn't in decline. By others (mostly Republican politicians) that it is in decline but it's because of liberals and the media. I would agree that Christianity is in decline, but not for the reasons that right wing Republicans scapegoat (Jews, Muslims, the media, gays, Democrats, the ACLU, liberals and atheists), but because the people calling themselves Christians have changed in that they don't really parent the old fashioned way anymore. Parents don't educate or train their children in faithful Christianity. They refuse to train them up in the ways of old or teach them strict Christian morals anymore. They believe that is old fashioned and so they allow the children to watch all sorts of TV, associate with the wrong people, go to immoral events, do immoral things, and then they spoil them with everything their heart desires instead of teaching them a work ethic. And then when the kids go wrong, they blame it on TV (that they let them watch) and liberals. They wonder what's happening to the kids today. Well, they are what's happening to the next generation, just as their liberal parents are what's allowed them to stray away from a strict upbringing. They've broken away from age old methods of raising kids to accept new modern methods that strip away discipline, attendance  and strict order and duty from the equation.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Don't give me that old "I know a parent that did that and the kid was still immoral" line, God put this into scripture because it's a truism. Of course there are some exceptions, but this is God's general rule that parents have lone gone away from because they feel they are too strict. The changes taking place in the church are because well meaning Christians allowed these worldly ideas to infiltrate it and  spoil it. It's like contamination. The big thing with Christians today is not moral education but secular education (college degrees), freedom to so-called "be themselves" and the training of MTV, Disney and the latest rock stars and teen movies. Is it any wonder that the children that are growing up are not replacing the Godly Christians who went before? The sexual revolution (including feminism and homosexual equality) did not remain in the world, we brought it into our churches under the name of love. So of course Christianity is declining. Liberals and the media didn't do it, we did it to ourselves. It's like the Republican party blaming liberals for Trump making idiotic comments, that's what I see in conservatives blaming the liberals and the media for a decline in Christianity.

Banning of prayer in public school didn't create a decline in churches, what was happening in churches created the decline. Public school is not a church, nor a place to train your children, that should have been done at home, and it wasn't. Like Trump, it's so easy to blame everyone else for problems we've created ourselves. the allowance of same-sex marriage came because of a great moral decay, not because there are liberals in the world. There has always been liberals in the world, but we outnumbered them because the church taught faithfully and that held evil back. No way the things that are routinely done today could have been done 50 years ago. Not because there were no liberals, but because the majority of the country had and taught morals. Now Christians not only allow their children sexual promiscuity, they freely say they allow it because they're going to do it anyway. What kind of christian teaching is that? So I don't want to hear how it's the liberals and politicians fault the church is in decline, it's the church's fault.  The Pew report noted that Americans are also changing religions much more than in the past, and when they do so, they are more likely to move away from Christianity than toward it. That's not a failure of liberals and media, that's a failure of the church, its non-evangelism and Christians.

Just my two cents for what it's worth.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Joanne on August 06, 2016, 07:19:09 AM
Joe, like Tony said, if you don't understand why Satan was bound, then you're never going to understand why or when he is loosed. If he was bound to keep the nations from attacking the nation of Israel, then he mst have been bound with sewing thread because Israel was destroyed by the nations not long after Christ went to the cross.

 )Goodpoint(  )cLaPpInGg( And I'm sorry to say, most Christians don't have a clue why Satan was bound, much less when, how or who looses him. That's the sad truth. Is that the reason why they don't see the obvious decline of Christianity? Perhaps, at the very least it adds to their confusion.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on August 06, 2016, 09:07:54 AM
Reformer,
  Am I to assume from this that you believe Satan is already loosed and is casting some of the church into prison that the body is being tried? Is that what you are saying?

Yes. God often uses the term Prison to describe the spiritual captivity of those ruled by Satan. Some examples are Isaiah 42:7,  Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19, 1 Peter 3:19. The church is tested by the unfaithful who have been brought into the prison house of Satan. In our day worldwide it has failed this test miserably.


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You believe that this decline is because Satan is loose?

Yes. Not just a decline, but a historical world wide decline, apostasy in all nations, Europe, US, Canada, Scotland, South Africa, everywhere.


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If so, my question is why are the nations not gathered together against Israel?

The camp of the saints is the congregation of spiritual Jews, not the nation Israel in the middle east. The nations of Revelation 20 are spiritual gentiles whom Satan has been loosed to bring to the camp of the saints to try them. Don't confuse Revelation 20 talking about the camp of the saints with the nation of Israel in the middle east as the Dispensationalists do. The saints of the New Testament are those of the church, not those of the nation of Israel.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Bruno Kolberg on August 06, 2016, 08:33:43 PM
As well as a worldwide decline in faithful Christianity, there’s an increase in persecution today that is generally ignored by western media outlets. The following newspaper article talks about this:

www.redatedkings.com/download/Persecution.pdf
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dana Pescator on August 07, 2016, 01:58:06 AM
Agreed, I don't see how anyone can fix their mouths to say there is no decline. It seems so obvious to me. The only question I have is if it is self inflicted or mainly a product of outside forces. I'm still working on that part. Maybe it's a combination of both?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Brian on August 07, 2016, 10:17:54 PM

The world's worst persecuter of Christians

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/north-korea/
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Wayne on August 08, 2016, 04:12:38 AM
That just goes to show. I didn't even know there were Christians in North Korea. Isn't that a closed state? How do they know all this? Or is it just rumor?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Daisy on August 09, 2016, 02:06:42 AM

A really Interesting Article

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/britain-really-is-ceasing-to-be-a-christian-country/

Great Britain is worse than we are.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: lpowell on August 09, 2016, 09:26:20 PM
Luke 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
  26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Man is sweeping clean of God's law and receiving a new law seven times worse.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dana Pescator on August 10, 2016, 01:58:39 AM

A really Interesting Article

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/britain-really-is-ceasing-to-be-a-christian-country/

Great Britain is worse than we are.

Daisy,
    And also that grapth that says at this rate by 2067 the'll be no Christians left on earth is actually misleading because in that study they counted everyone who "claims" to be Christian as Christian. The truth is, only about 10 percent (at best) of professing Christians really qualify as Christian according to God's definition.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Terrell Meyer on August 10, 2016, 06:36:36 AM
    And also that grapth that says at this rate by 2067 the'll be no Christians left on earth is actually misleading because in that study they counted everyone who "claims" to be Christian as Christian. The truth is, only about 10 percent (at best) of professing Christians really qualify as Christian according to God's definition.

I am inclined to agree, except I think it is probably more like 20 percent of Christians are real rather than 10. I guess I'm a little more charitable than you. I agree with your overall point though, that most Christians aren't Christians. You know like Trump, Hillary, Miley Cirus, Pope Francis, Pat Robertson, David Duke, Etc.,Etc.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Melanie on November 20, 2016, 09:14:09 AM

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7-8"

These verses say it all. When Christ returns, there won't be a lot of faith on earth, there will be his people crying to him to avenge them of those who have persecuted them and silenced their testimony.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Joe Johnson on February 12, 2017, 02:55:45 AM
 )Say_what( I've never seen any group so negative about the church as I read here. And this has been going on for years. Say what you will. God's church will never fall, never be moved and never die. Maybe if you started going to church you might not be so jaded against it.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on February 13, 2017, 03:41:37 AM
:Say_what: I've never seen any group so negative about the church as I read here.

Is it with good reason? I mean don't shoot the messenger. The church is a shell of its former self.



Quote
God's church will never fall, never be moved and never die.

Israel, as God's former congregation, said the same thing. What does that say to you? God's people are rebellious, that's been the history of his congregation. And when it is, God says it falls. Remember what God said to the church at Ephesus. That goes for every church.

 Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


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Maybe if you started going to church you might not be so jaded against it.

Which church. Show me a faithful one within 20 miles of me and I will go.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Oneil on February 14, 2017, 07:26:01 AM
God's church will never fall, never be moved and never die.

There are two churches. One can fall, one can't. Did you read Reformer's post. The church in Ephesus fell. So obviously your statement is untrue. God's church can fall. The church in Ephesus was God's church, but it fell, never to rise again.


Quote
Maybe if you started going to church you might not be so jaded against it.

II Cor. 6:17
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

I'm looking. When I find one that is not unclean, I will attend. But until then, I'm out!
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Philly Dawg on February 14, 2017, 12:15:15 PM
The decline of biblical Christianity, and the rise of political Christianity. Any correlation?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Robert Powell on February 16, 2017, 12:56:54 AM
The decline of biblical Christianity, and the rise of political Christianity. Any correlation?

Not really. The decline of Christianity began long before politics took over the church. I believe the decline of Christianity is directly related to parenting, television, progressive or liberal brainwashing and unfaithful ministers.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Today's children are trained by what they see on television, and Christian parents have allowed it because they've listened to the world in how to raise their kids. My great grandmother raised my grandmother different from the way my grandmother raised my mother, and my mother raised me different from how my grandmother raised her. Each progression closer to the world's idea of rearing good children. Each swinging a little further away from Biblical principles. Until now, children don't even understand what Christian obligation is, much less how they should refrain from worldly pleasures. Bottom line, we brought it upon ourselves by not holding fast to the old ways.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Terrell Meyer on February 17, 2017, 02:38:41 AM
The decline of Christianity began long before politics took over the church. I believe the decline of Christianity is directly related to parenting, television, progressive or liberal brainwashing and unfaithful ministers.

In short, the decline of Christianity began when Christians allowed the world to come into the church (Jas 4:4). Not to mention they lost their zeal and forgot their mission, which was to evangelize the world rather than fix the world.

Matthew 10:16
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves".

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on February 18, 2017, 06:31:39 AM
The decline of Christianity began long before politics took over the church. I believe the decline of Christianity is directly related to parenting, television, progressive or liberal brainwashing and unfaithful ministers.

In short, the decline of Christianity began when Christians allowed the world to come into the church (Jas 4:4).

I believe that both are true to one degree or another. Television does bring the world up into the church and it also makes it 10 times harder to parent. Not to mention to teach and not have that teaching compromised ad eroded by the constant bombarding of humanism and worldly lusts. Some parents have actually taken away the TV from their house, or severely limited or restricted viewing. Of course they are ridiculed and mocked, but maybe they have the right idea. I think there's a article about the effects of TV on this site somewhere, but I forget the name.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on February 21, 2017, 04:07:29 AM
>>>
Some parents have actually taken away the TV from their house, or severely limited or restricted viewing. Of course they are ridiculed and mocked, but maybe they have the right idea. I think there's a article about the effects of TV on this site somewhere, but I forget the name.
<<<

The Bible: Our T.V. Guide -by Kevin Takenaka

http://mountainretreatorg.net/articles/tvguide.shtml


Is TV Really So Bad? -by Dr Joel R. Beeke

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/tv_really_bad.html


The TV Church -by W. Robert Godfrey

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/the_tv_church.shtml


The Dangers of Television -by Dr. Ken Matto

http://www.scionofzion.com/tv.htm

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Henry on March 17, 2017, 10:10:00 AM
In short, the decline of Christianity began when Christians allowed the world to come into the church (Jas 4:4). Not to mention they lost their zeal and forgot their mission, which was to evangelize the world rather than fix the world.

Interesting theory. The Presbyterian church, which I have been a member of for years, has all but been decimated. Where once children were replenishing the churches as the older members died off, now they want nothing to do with the church. They merely say they believe in God, but don't need the church. Evangelism is not in their vocabulary, they say religion is personal. I'm wondering if there has been any studies to determine why the church is in decline while religions like Islam grow?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Fred on March 18, 2017, 08:44:48 PM
First of all it's not declining. God's church will never decline because it will be here until the rapture. Second of all, the church is the body of Christ and it can't fall or be killed. And finally, the church is Christian people, and Christian people can't decline, they are bought with a price. Unless you believe God can't keep us from falling.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on March 19, 2017, 12:03:58 PM
>>>
I'm wondering if there has been any studies to determine why the church is in decline while religions like Islam grow?
<<<

How much time have you got? Enough to listen to one of my rants? ;)

My opinion is, another study is exactly what we don't need. They've done many studies and put forth a hundred different opinions, and depending upon which one, they have determined the cause as everything from population decline here, to a increase in the birth rate somewhere else--from the young feeling disenfranchised by the church, to they're simply disaffiliated but still Christian--from political polarization, to a neglect of politics--From the knowledge of greater education, to an increase in self-worth and prosperity--from the excesses and rigidities of conservative religion, to the moderation and laxities of liberal religion--from the sexual revolution to the moral majority, and on and on. There really is no shortage of hypotheses concerning the decline of Christianity. What there is, is a shortage of looking to the warnings recorded in the Bible for answers why. The decline has nothing to do with education, population, politics or a changing culture. Unless of course, the culture in view is the changing Christian culture. That's what has brought the church to the brink. When Christians changed, Christian culture changed, Christian parenting changed, Christian preaching changed, Christian faithfulness changed and of course the Christian church changed. From the 60s on there has been an emergence of a lack of obedience, discipline, instruction, Biblical child rearing, evangelism and love in the family unit. A rebellion against law and a misinterpretation of grace where the love of God is something abstract. In fact, it's grown so cold that in most churches today there is absolutely no fear of God, reverence for His word as authoritative, or recognition of sin as abhorrent and abominable to God. There's nothing of substance being passed on to Christian children, just the mouthing of hollow phrases consisting of "Praise God," and "God loves you." An application of simply applying the Moniker, "Christian" and going about our business of eating and drinking. The leaders of the church have fallen prey to their own corrupt nature to permit the slow deterioration of sound doctrine. When the ministers turned away from the Bible, they lost touch for what it is to be Christians honest with themselves, an evangelist, a God fearing and a Bible believing Spirit filled Christian. Unfortunately, Spirit filled today means jumping up and down in church or babbling incoherently for attention. It is the people of the church itself that are the reason for its decline. Why have another man made study when God has already given us the blueprint and example after example of this very same degradation that causes His congregation to fall:

Jeremiah 5:29-31

Good question for them and for us. As in the congregation of Israel before us, a wonderful (astonishing) and horrible thing is committed in our congregations as God's messengers teach what is false and our Priests bear rule according to their own hands instead of the hand of God. They started teaching what is popular in order to gain influence and favor of the people. Our church pastors and ministers have become dishonest concerning what is written and unfaithful to precepts where they corrupt the word in order to satisfy the people's desires and lusts. God's conclusion of the matter is that, His people love to have it so. In other words, the people love to have ministers and messengers who tell them what they want to hear (Micah 2:11) as opposed to what God "actually" said. Sure, we can say that prosperity and affluence distract people from serving as faithful stewards, but when we look "deeper" the seed is sown in the decline in faithful doctrines promoting Christian living that would be a hedge against such distractions. A decline in faithful adherence to sound doctrines always brings a decline in the Lord's congregation. It always has, and it always will. When the ministers of the church start covering over sin by claiming God permits us to do this, and He is not displeased when we do that, and to do the other is acceptable to Him, contrary to what God's word "actually" said, then this is the beginning of the downfall of that people. Look at the Biblical records. Every time that God's people strayed away from the faithful doctrines, there was a decline, a falling away, a apostasy where God had to bring judgment upon His people. They are written as examples for us, but no one is listening. It's not really a mystery. Abominations committed by the unfaithfulness of God's people, brings desolation to that house.

Ezekiel 22:28

In God's vernacular, it's like putting plaster or even paiunt over the walls of a building to conceal its flaws, weaknesses, faults, cracks, defects, etc., while not correcting the problems. The point is, whatever they do to conceal the problem, in the end these unfaithful ministers cannot hide the sin from a omniscient God who sees all.

Hebrews 4:12-13

Man's sin stands naked before God even as Adam and Eve stood naked before God without covering for theirs. But the people of the church today look deep into rationalizations and self-serving justifications to hide their sins, but their sin is naked before Him. From my perspective, today's church isn't just in decline, it is pretty much on life support. And it didn't happen overnight, but it seldom does (Genesis 6). It seems many had stopped feeding the sheep long ago, and as strange as it may sound, many have become "secular" in their mindset and thinking. This in turn has slowly (the boiling frog syndrome) brought the church down. So I don't think we need another study to determine why the church is in decline, I think the reason is as obvious as it is unpalatable to those leading the church. ...which no doubt is why they give you all these "other" reasons. But God has both warned against going this route, and has prophesied of the fall of churches who don't take head to His warnings. So it's not rocket science, it's prophesy and doctrine. It is by process of a slow, steady and continuing abandonment of faithfulness. It starts in the ministers, is passed on to the parishioners and parents, who in turn pass it on to the next generation, who then widen the gap even further. It's not in decline because the young abandoned the laws of their ministers and parents, it's in decline because the ministers and parents abandoned the laws concerning their young.

Proverbs 22:6
Proverbs 23:12-14

The children were supposed to be the future of the church as ministers and parents nurtured Godly seed, but there is no Godly cultivation, no evangelism, no instruction even at home, much less abroad to the nations. How many times have you heard professing Christians claim something that is so clearly written in Scripture is not really what God "actually" meant? Or even contradict the word without any fear of God or conscience? e.g.: "a good spanking only makes a child violent himself--God knows my heart and will understand if I divorce--there are no men who can be pastors of our church--sex before marriage is inevitable--God choosing us unto salvation means I actually chose him, etc., etc. And of course, the majority of the church nods their collective head in agreement, and the Devil puts another notch on his proverbial fork. Did your parents ask you if you wanted to go to church, or did they tell you that you were going to church? But this is a new church where for all practical purposes, the children are in charge. The parishioners lead the ministers. It's all a part of a new age where Godly training has gone the way of the Mauritius Dodo bird. Is it any wonder Christian children grow up to have no desire to carry on the banner of sound Christianity? In truth, they don't even know what it is! When we place no boundaries, we can expect no boundaries, and in general that is the M.O. of today's church where almost everything is "don't judge, don't correct and let kids be kids."

Proverbs 19:18

That not only goes for when we are rearing our personal children, but he children of God as well. Correction and chastening is a lost art in the church today. The social engineers in the church (not in the world) have taken the pulpit and sprinkled us with ideas and principles foreign to the Bible, neglecting the discipline and instruction of the Lord. A recipe that has always resulted in disaster among God's people. When we lean to our own understanding, rather than the unadulterated word of God, what the church then becomes is inevitable. Obey God and the church prospers (spiritually), disobey God and the church falls into ruin (spiritually). Rather than look for another man's opinion or a study, the Christian should have addressed the real problem long ago. A problem that is in changing Ministers, models, methods and values brought on by the increasing acceptance and reliance upon the world's morals, sensibilities, instructions and approaches, over the tried and true methodology of sound Christian doctrine.

Luke 11:33-24

The congregation has made the church dark in order to fit in with the world. If our mind is enlightened with the knowledge and gospel of Christ, then our first works, or main labors, should be to bring forth that light unto others. The gospel should be as a daily or continual sacrifice, for our children, for our church and for the world. But the church has failed to propagate and promote God's truth that we are "set apart" from the world in service to God. This dereliction of duty has brought about this degeneration. Nothing outside has done it as so many professing Christians would have us believe. When we want to find the enemy or adversary of the church, we need not blame the Boggy man, Islam, Politicians or any other outside forces, we need look no further than within the covenant body itself for the evil spirit. Look in the mirror for those who have abandoned Biblical principles  and forsaken the way of God for the way of the world. The pastors and teachers that have allowed a degradation of Biblical principle, are the culprits. The church is in decline because she has broken the marriage covenant of her youth. As a harlot indulging in spiritual fornication without discretion, in her self delusion she has become a house of spiritual insanity. And where is the balm or healing for her? She blames everyone but herself for the predicament she's in, and attempts to bring correction and righteousness to the world when in truth she is the one that needs correction. She is the one who is rebellious and on the path of death.

Proverbs 2:10-18

The end of my rant for today is that the corporate church is broken and has forsaken its duty as the light of the world through Christ. Is it then any wonder the candlestick is moved out of its place? She has become a social club, a stage for who's got talent, a political forum for making the world a better place, instead of a Lampstand or Candle that was commissioned to be the light of the world unto salvation. A beacon of light for Peace in the world ...Peace with God, not with the enemies of the state.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on March 19, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
>>>
First of all it's not declining.
<<<

Deline: typically something becoming smaller
            or fewer in number; to decrease in size; to become less; a
            gradual and continuous loss of strength, quality,
            or value; to degenerate; a depreciation; to
            become less effective; the opposite of growth.
            
Unless I have a really warped idea of definitions, yes, the church "is" in decline.            


Quote
>>>
God's church will never decline because it will be here until the rapture.
<<<

That the indivisible church will be here until the rapture does not contradict, disprove or invalidate a decline, an apostasy, or a falling away from the faith of the church. The covenanted congregation of Israel fell, but the apostles remained the covenanted congregation of Israel. That didn't mean the congregation of Israel didn't fall and lose the Kingdom representation. So merely providing "proof by assertion" is not really corroboration or confirmation of your view. Remember, to the messenger of the church at Ephesus God says:

Revelation 2:5

Clearly, without ambiguity, God's witness is that the messenger of the church could indeed fall, and His church could indeed be moved out of its place. So once again, it's a matter of authority of the word versus man's theories and traditional beliefs.


Quote
>>>
Second of all, the church is the body of Christ and it can't fall or be killed.
<<<

So are you saying when God said that the church of Ephesus could be moved out of its place, that wasn't true and she would forever be positioned with God no matter what she did? When God said the messenger of that church had fallen (and not from literal heaven) and had need of repenting, He was unaware of your rule that the messenger couldn't fall nor the church be moved?

The truth is, true Christians who have been redeemed cannot fall, but the church and those within it merely professing to be Christian can and do fall all the time. We have God's witness that they can and do. His word is authoritative:

Matthew 7:24-29

Upon what "authority" do you build your doctrines? So then, it's a matter of our "authority" isn't it? The authority of Christ thee WORD, versus the authority of man. Who is our governor and upon what do we build our house? On the Rock or upon sand? Clearly Christ relates this message to those listening to (hearing) His word and keeping it "versus" those who hear His word and ignore, rebel against or forsake it. When I hear Christ teach about a church being moved out of its place if the messenger doesn't repent, I hear AUTHORITY. What do you hear?


Quote
>>>
And finally, the church is Christian people, and Christian people can't decline, they are bought with a price.
<<<

The Bible is replete with professing believers turning back to their old life, falling, backsliding, declining, forsaking, etc., and being judged of God for it. The truth is, some are actually bought with a price, and some merely claim or profess that they are bought with a price. The difference is, Spirit and authority. Just as some are true Spirit filled Christians and some merely claim they are Spirit filled Christian.

2nd Peter 2:1

Perhaps you don't really understand how God is using the term bought here with relationship to false ministers, false teachers and false prophets who claim they are Christians bought with a price, but in practice denying it. i.e., a tree is known by its fruits, not by what it says of itself. Sure, they profess that they are bought where they know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate (Titus 1:16). Whether they are actually bought and paid for by Christ will be revealed at the last day.


Quote
>>>
Unless you believe God can't keep us from falling.
<<<

Of course God is able to keep us from falling. He is also able to allow his ministers to fall, as He did the Scribes, Pharisees and Priests of Old Testament Israel. They were never truly saved and never really under Grace of God, so they fell. Even though they were part of the covenanted congregation and were collectively children of God. And we're no better than they were. Some will fall, some will not fall.  The difference is true redemption.

2nd Timothy 2:20

This great house is the proverbial church, and some in this house can and will most definitely fall. Not because they were saved and lost their salvation, but because they were never saved, never Christian, never bought, never built in this house upon the Rock. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Fred on March 20, 2017, 03:11:15 AM
Tony, the only thing in decline is the people who visit your forum, not the church. As I said before, there is actually a great growth of Christians.

This story of Christianitys explosive growth is one of the great untold stories of our time. It's a story that North American Christians need to hear. But they won't as long as the negative nellies like you are around.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: George on March 20, 2017, 10:57:08 AM
Tony, the only thing in decline is the people who visit your forum, not the church.

 )laugh( )laugh( )laugh( )laugh( )laugh( )laugh( L.O.L.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on March 20, 2017, 11:22:10 AM
Clearly, without ambiguity, God's witness is that the messenger of the church could indeed fall, and His church could indeed be moved out of its place. So once again, it's a matter of authority of the word versus man's theories and traditional beliefs.

As always. It's also interesting that while Biblical church like the strict Southern Baptists, Reformed and Presbyterian churches are seeing a decline, the churches like the Jehovah Witness and the Mormon cults are seeing a increase. Just for the reasons you say.The decline is in churches that have sound doctrine. Catholics in South America, cults and foreign religions like Islam are doing OK.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Erik Diamond on March 20, 2017, 12:35:25 PM
Quote from: Reformer
Television does bring the world up into the church and it also makes it 10 times harder to parent. Not to mention to teach and not have that teaching compromised ad eroded by the constant bombarding of humanism and worldly lusts.

Reformer,

Do you remember when we spend lazy days outside in the sunshine?  Riding a bike to the corner store to buy candy?  Walking through a small forest with a friend? Play little leagues, join Boy Scouts, attend church services and activities.  Things have changed with the generation of smartphone zombies.

Television used to be a god.  Now we have new and more powerful gods, the smartphones and tablets. The devices have turned children and adults into antisocial zombies thanks to liberal social media, YouTube Junks, Twitter rants, cyberbullying, etc.  They eventually lose interest in natural activities and relationships, and the call to serve the Lord in the Church and the communities.  Families broke up. Crimes are everywhere.  Disrespect of parent and authorities. Our government is in a mess.  The Satanic massive offensive attack on Christianity is so widespread through these technologies and false prophets/christs that could affect Christian families and bringing down the church spiritually.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: John on March 21, 2017, 02:12:55 AM
Quote
The decline of biblical Christianity, and the rise of political Christianity. Any correlation?

Back to the original question. Here is my rant. Christians are typically conservative politically- meaning they want government to leave them alone, not steal their earnings, not regulate and control them, not train their children to be unreasoning dolts in the government schools and universities, not allow crime to flourish, not unendingly lie to them, not be hypocrites, not slander, defame, demonize them and others, and to stop using the courts to pass immoral and/or foolish laws that destroy families and decimate cities.

The decline of Christianity began in earnest with the rise and acceptance of Arminian theology, but by whatever name it is called the Biblical Precepts that began the Protestant Reformation were doomed to eventual failure by the forces of evil. The means to that end is laid at the foot of Pride, as usual. Though the Reformers made large reversals against the tides of Catholicism and other heretics, it left a backdoor entry that eventually led to the defeat of Biblical Christianity.

The hermeneutical approach espoused by the Reformers was wrong-headed, borne out of pride. Rather than interpret the Bible comparing Scripture with Scripture they added the wrong approach of Literalism. It was meant to avoid wild ideas from the imagination of heretics, but the results were wild ideas from the imagination of so-called Christians. The Arminian heresy simply borrowed the Literal-Grammatical method of interpretation and turned the Bible on its head. It wasn't long before every so-called Christian sect had a unique reinterpretation that they fancied, they just invented whatever symbolic interpretation they needed to make it so.

And with that, came divorce, remarriage, works plus grace gospels, works gospels, demon worship with tongues, dreams, and visions, lying pastors, acceptance of homosexuality, homosexual marriage, drinking, worldliness, and on and on. Of course it was apparent no lay person would ever be able to make sense of it all. So the factories spat out red-letter Bibles with commentaries and notes - to make sure you arrive at the right conclusion. Except it is mostly the wrong conclusion based on a bad hermeneutic principles. To help further, the factories made more Bible versions, one after the other, being very careful to translate their original corrupt manuscripts most inaccurately and then further have linguists smooth over the speed bumps God put there, so once again, everyone arrives at the right (read wrong) conclusion.

Now, with that out of the way. There are only two world views: man-centered and God-centered. That's it. The God-centered world view is abhorred by the world. There are only two political parties: man-centered and God-centered. That's it. Those who uphold divorce for any cause, homosexuality, homosexual marriage, gender fluidity, sexual immorality, fornication, adultery, and promote killing babies and selling dead baby parts -- whose racist policies target Blacks and Hispanics as somehow fundamentally inferior and needing constant government intervention because they are too special and too weak to survive on their own, who do and say anything to gain power and when in power corrupt and destroy every institution that the God-centered party holds dear ... so that the entire country slides into a pit of sewage, that is the man-centered group. Out of the man-centered world view comes the tolerance of crime and corruption, leaving cities crumbling and the poor left to live a hellish existence in the cesspool the Progressives created.

As spiritual darkness descends upon this nation, so blossoms the Black Flower that is the Progressive Left - unafraid of being thrown out of office, they no longer need to hide their hatred for America or its people. They see the way forward is cleared. They can easily usher in their much sought after Utopian world that they think will bring peace and prosperity. Through Progressive Socialism and Neo-Marxist policies, naturally. The party of the KKK, eugenics, 150 years of violent opposition to civil rights and the promotion of unbridled racism that is borne out of their own man-centered world view, knows how to control the masses. When in charge they rip down all reminders of the God-centered past of this nation. The Bible is near becoming labelled a "hate book" under their world view it is intolerant. Christians are often labelled as belonging to a "hate group" and are not beyond biased government officials punishing Conservative/Christian groups. It won't be long before, like the Socialists of 1935 Germany, the Progressive Left descends into its true and final form as a Totalitarian Socialist/Marxist militant regime: intolerant, hateful, raging at anyone that thinks different than themselves. But especially those who remind them that God is and will be their Judge.

You have watched, if you are old enough, the rapid coarsening of language, the increase hatred espoused by the Progressive Left, the shouting down, insulting, vilifying and demonizing those they disagree with, always attempting to silence their opposition rather than try and win on the stage of ideas (they can't). Propaganda is their tool, with the media a willing partner. The media is just another arm of the DNC, propaganda 24/7. Slander, lies, insults, and failed policies that get people killed here at home, and causes the deaths of tens of thousands, if not millions worldwide is their legacy. A result of their moral code of fairness and equality of outcome.

At home darkness envelops the ignorant masses, convinced the Progressive Left will save them from the horror of their man-centered sinful lives. Little do they realize it is the policies of the Progressive Left that freed them to unleash that horror. And Christians and other thinking people watch the rise of poverty, drug use, alcoholism, suicide, gang shootings and stabbing each night with dead children in the streets, with the poor hiding in government projects huddled in fear day and night as the Progressive Left voters shoot it out. Open borders are policy and terrorists enter unhindered. Sanctuary Cities hide criminals from the Law and criminals flourish. Open rebellion is everywhere. Lawlessness rules by day and night. No one can be trusted, not the citizens, government officials, or judges of the law - they are all using corrupt scales to weight justice.

Out of the chaos of a fallen Bible, a fallen Church, a fallen Christianity, a fallen moral code and all the destruction that goes with it - a handful of people, mostly Christians, Constitutional Conservatives, a variety of Deists, and those believing in right-and-wrong if only as a distant childhood memory, rise up. These "see" the devastation wrought by the emboldened Progressive Left and oppose the worship of the State as God .... and they decide each one to oppose the evil they see and seek to end the oppression of the weak. Though the Progressive Left tried to lie and cheat their way toward power, to once again buy their base with other people's money and with promises to further legalize immorality, they were stopped, but barely.

So, yes the decline of Christianity is tied to the rise of a political Christian or right-wing that wants the Constitution to be obeyed, the Federal Laws to be obeyed, to have America secure its borders, defeat our enemies both here and abroad, and to get the State's boot-heel off the necks of workers and entrepreneurs, and unleash innovation and creativity again.

They just want the Progressive Left to stop insisting everyone think like them, to stop the insults, the hate, and end the violence in our cities.

The Progressive Left composed of God-haters, criminals, violent-minded people are mostly ignorant and uneducated - easily led and unable to reason or discern they go for the carrot on the stick. They are taught hate in school, via media, and in colleges. Feeling a sense of superiority and self-righteousness they seek to destroy anything that hints of absolutes - absolute truth, morality, right vs. wrong, common law ... are are abandoned and the opposite viewpoint is promoted. The Left has no moral anchor except what ever will buy a vote. If it gets votes ... a man is a woman and a woman is a man. If it gets votes you are whatever you think you are. If it promotes the equality of outcome they demand, then a man marries a man, or marries two men or three, or marries a horse, doesn't matter. The goal is to overthrow the family unit. Marriage is devoid of meaning. Where 3 + 3 used to mean 6, now it means 7, 8, or whatever you want. What do the people who vote for the man-centered get? They get freedom to sin. They get the life-blood of other people's life. They get a free cell phone. But as long as the votes are cast for their Progressive overlords it matters not the destruction they cause, to maintain power no lie is too small, no crime too big.

Yes, some Christians see a duty to defend this country against the godless who seek its destruction. The more 'spiritual' Christians see it as folly, as God did not put us here to save the country they cry. They say we are only to evangelize not change culture. Perhaps, but it is possible to evangelize the lost AND in your own small sphere of influence, when the subject arises, educate them on why their lives suck, why they can't leave their house at night, why government robbery is wrong and counterproductive. I'm not advocating mixing the Gospel with Politics, they are separate, but not mutually exclusive. Note well, the Left is at war against most on this forum. They do want to take your right to speak and evangelize away, very much. They used to fear the people, but no longer. In short time they will do it. This and many other sites will be forced down. Church pastors will be jailed. You will be silenced. The Left is seeking to destroy - and you are in their way.

Destroy they have and will (which to them is progress). But I'm glad to see their errors and folly exposed, even if few are paying attention. Sure they are unreasoning beasts, they never take their failure to heart. It is just on to the next lie. But it is good to know that there are still some people capable of reasoning and truth in these last end-time days of darkness. There are even fewer capable of spiritual reasoning, far fewer. as that requires a different spirit only God provides. Yet, in their own ways both are little heavenly fragrances when and where reason defeats madness. Little islands of truth appear here and there, not to defeat the stench and vileness that infests the world. But as reminders that God is on the Throne and though all the people go mad, it is but a short while ... then the end and the scales are balanced.

Perhaps I'm alone, but it still amazes me, the level of wickedness men are capable of sinking to, the distance they will travel to excuse or defend a lie, the depths to which they will descend to attack and smear their enemies, and the emptiness of the darkness that possess their soul such that they are unable to see the toll of human wreckage they caused and promote. But such is the madness of the age.


john
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Colleen on March 21, 2017, 03:07:11 PM
Tony, the only thing in decline is the people who visit your forum, not the church.

That's probably true because there is a decline of the real church, and real Christians are the ones who visit here. Not people like yourself who only want to hear everything is great, or that we are allowed to do things that the Bible says we can't, or that the church is as faithful as it ever was. Yes, with the decline of the true church comes a decline of sound Christians. That should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Philly Dawg on March 28, 2017, 01:15:28 AM
Here is my rant. Christians are typically conservative politically

The only problem with that statement is that people like you don't understand that conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots who take up arms against U.S. Police officials because they want free grazing land, or backing obvious racists and criminals like Cliven Bundy and his ilk, as you did. You far right guys seem to get conservative Christian confused with radicals activists, tax evaders and racists. A real conservative Christian is none of those things.


Quote
- meaning they want government to leave them alone,

I don't recall the conservative Christian Paul crying about wanting the Roman Government to leave him alone, complaining about their heavy taxes or whining bout paying for the care of the poor. I guess we have different ideas about conservative Christians. Real Christians typically spend most of their precious time promoting the gospel rather than worrying about the cares of this life, giving their work to backing wicked men or political parties. They spend their time spreading the message of Christ. This idea that joining anti-government groups, ranting about immigrants, Mexicans, Africans, Jews or Muslims, and supporting political revolutions by the so called downtrodden "white males" as your cohort in crime Bram did, shows you don't understand conservative Christianity. The fact is conservative Christianity doesn't appreciate the policies of Obama or the policies of Trump. Because they're both dishonest, biased and unchristian. There is no difference, and nothing either does will change the direction this country is headed in. It's only the delusional far right wing that doesn't understand that.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Diane Moody on March 28, 2017, 07:52:04 AM
Here is my rant. Christians are typically conservative politically

The only problem with that statement is that people like you don't understand that conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots who take up arms against U.S. Police officials because they want free grazing land, or backing obvious racists and criminals like Cliven Bundy and his ilk, as you did. You far right guys seem to get conservative Christian confused with radicals activists, tax evaders and racists. A real conservative Christian is none of those things.

 :amen: Well said! I would suggest Tony Warren's article, is it Christian to be anti government.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Gerry on March 28, 2017, 01:52:55 PM
I would suggest Tony Warren's article, is it Christian to be anti government.

Not that I agree with such a philosophy, but where would I find this article? I searched the forum but couldn't find it.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Erik Diamond on March 28, 2017, 07:50:04 PM
Here you go...


http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/can_christians_rebel_against_government.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/can_christians_rebel_against_government.shtml)
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Gerry on March 28, 2017, 10:27:41 PM

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: John on March 29, 2017, 02:24:25 AM
"....conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots who take up arms against U.S. Police officials because they want free grazing land, or backing obvious racists and criminals like Cliven Bundy and his ilk, as you did."

Philly Dawg, still an irrepressible slanderer, I know very well. You remain as pathetic now as you were then. I'm not for heavy handed government intervention nor rebellion on the part of citizenry, neither one is acceptable, not that you care what I think. The solution to his unpaid grazing fees on BLM land needed to be resolved in the court system, as it is currently being done. The rest of you comment is typical left-wing hate... which is your specialty.

Let me give it a try. You support Obama and left-wing causes - you hate Bush and Trump, though you'll deny it. So let's give this a go ... Bush and Trump are white ... therefore you are a left-wing slanderer and racist hater of white people, who sides with communists and radicals leftists who kill cops and those who want to overthrow America by opposition to federal border laws as Obama has, you applaud cities that defy federal criminal laws against illegals, including those illegals that commit felonies and encourage lawlessness and anarchy in the streets, as you and your ilk have.

Now I don't really think you are a racist ... you may be, certainly you are ignorant, rude, and childish ... but I have no way to know you inner heart about race. I would not seriously call anyone, including you such a vile thing just to try and win a forum debate about the decline of Christianity. But you do. Constantly.  In fact, that is all you do. Constantly. Just insult, slander, and call everyone that disagrees with you a racist (or hint that they're a right-wind fanatic lunatic that sides with racists, etc. - standard Alinsky tactic.)

 You far right guys seem to get conservative Christian confused with radicals activists, tax evaders and racists. A real conservative Christian is none of those things.

True. A conservative Christian isn't a radical, or a tax evader, or a racist. But you never fail to equate conservatives as such. That is why I measure you, after observing your behavior on this forum for many many years, as pathetic. You degrade this forum with your hate, lies, and your slander. A true Christian is none of those things. Yet that is your stock and trade.

You say, ".... I say things based on my knowledge, rational conclusions and reliable information". (laughable)

Concerning Republicans, Presidents, and Conservative Christians you have these idiotic comments to your credit. See if you smell the flavor of Christ in your rants (I don't):

...And all the nitwits who voted for this man, knowing he was a mental deficient
...he's certainly the most dishonest and incompetent
...I pretty much believe stupid and satanic is two sides of the same coin.
...And he did a pretty good job in office compared to this clown in there now.
...It's a "known fact" that  most violent right-wing, racist and libertarian activities occur mostly with Registered right wing Republicans.
...the fundamentalist right cannot deal with the truth of this administration's stupid actions.
...it's not about protection at all, it's about fear, anti government and radical anti Christian ideas.
...Christianity and morality have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this Bush League Administration.
...How do you spell  H Y P O C R I T E.  You spell it Greedy Right Wing Republican Christians.
...And who's fault is this? Honestly? President George Bush.
...They let the right wing Republican party think for them and blindly support these fascists in Sheep's clothing.
...it is all because of the stupid removal of Saddam...by the Republicans, of course led by our great Crusader George Bush.
...people like you don't understand that conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots
...Just what we need, another far right wing fanatic professing Christianity
...we're well over our quota of right wing reactionary fanatical Christians here. ...let me guess. ..You support George Bush?
...That is clearly unchristian, but it is typical of the thinking of the supporters of Mr. Bush!
...What does it say about their Christianity that they can support a man like Trump?
...A bombastic, hateful, pretentious, prideful fear monger who will most assuredly tear this country apart.
...But these ignorant right wing Christians who support Trump is what is truly disturbing to me.
..."Make america great again" should be "I will make you prideful," and "I will make america hate again."
...Yes, some people who call themselves Republican are racist. No doubt about that. Hear that John, Billnjune, Fred?
...Provong once again, Bush is not only stupid, but dumb as well.
...You'll be lambasted by Right Wing Republicans who still believe .... there some benefit to all those soldiers dying in Vietnam
...Probably 1/2 of professing Christians in America are fundamentalists with strong false political agendas
...And the very group you posted about teaches the children to pray to Bush
...you're missing the pioint, as all right wing Christian Republican apologists want to do.
...For years we have had to listen to Republican Christian hypocrites claim the high ground
...All the Republican fundamentalist Bush supporters have crawed back into their holes
...they don't believe Bush anymore. Even the Republicans are coming to the end of their rope with this moron.
...Something that you right wing Republicans that are pretending to be Christian wouldn't understand.
...Seeing ...all the hypocritical right wing fundamentalist Christian apostates who were trying to impeach President Clinton
...Republicans right wing Christians have shown themselves hypocrites of the first order, ...with the Scribes and Pharisees of old.
...Uh Oh. Now you're going to get the right wing fanatical Republicans mad at ya
...likes of these hypocrites, these serpent men over the lie of morality, just because they say they are conservative Christians?
...What is wrong with these right wing religious fundamentalist nuts who think that killing and war is the answer to all the world's problems?
... can't believe the trash that comes out of the right wing's mouths in the name of the Lord. I would call it blasphemy, but that's just me.
...It seems every week a new Bush Republican moral Christian gets either charged or busted for something else.
...Oh these right wing Republicans, they are so moral. Always taking the moral high ground, aren't they?
...so bad because he's a Republican Christian against abortion? What a Joke and a sad representation of Christ you are!!
....The difference between me and you John, is that I deal with both political parties with a fair hand
...most Christians give a pass to the right wing fundamentalist Christian perverts, nuts, fascists and political nitwits.
...Another great example of the right wing fundamentalist Republican Christian cults that I have been talking about
...But to all those fundamentalist Republican Christians here who blame the liberal media for all our woes
...Some of you people who call yourselves Republican Christians should read the constitution sometime.
...I've even been banned for reporting what Bush says. These are the most hypocritical people that ever called themselves Christian.
...Nobody told Trump to be a jackass, and nobody put words in Trump's mouth, he's the fool who speaks what is in his heart.
...But no one but the most die-hard right wing Republican radicals has ever said Trump was wise.
...Do you want an immature man and savage with his finger on the nuclear button in the white house?
...I don't know what kind of "stupid pills" Republicans have been taking to stand behind this clown to be commander and chief,
...you should have never gone to the polls in droves to nominate a moron like "Donald John Trump."
...Christian Trump supporters are a "Cult of Personality" and it really doesn't matter what he does they will back him.
...These Trump supporters are blind to his evil and nip picking on emails as if it were murder. 
...The Bush administration is incompetent.
...Trump starts this whole racial divide in this country (evidenced by the unchristian racial comments even here)
...giving people the green light to hate groups based on ethnic origin, ...when his backers start attacking Jews, Blacks and shooting Muslims
...That's like the right wing Republicans claiming his policies will make America safer,
...And Trump exploiting the wife of the SEAL last night, that he got killed by his incompetence and neglect,
...This clown approved the mission without due process
...Yes, the right wing fundamentalists would love something like that
...Not according to the anti-government white Christian's association, the Puritans, the NRA, the Reconstructionists ...
...Did anyone notice the string of right wing Republican Christian's immorality in politics
...The same good old fashioned Christian racism/xenophobia rears its ugly head again in the face of Donald Trump
...Trump attracts people like Fred because he plays to their political hatred, greed, fears, racism and promotes a "us against them" mentality.
...going from the head-scratching blind Christian support of Bush
...it's just that the Right Wing anti-government Crusaders and gun lobbyists always seem to get Christianity confused with trailer park politics.
... rather than have children thinking Christians should go around carrying assult weapons to attack the government Federal agencies
... least you are honest with yourself and not delusionary like most conservative christians about this war.
...don't tell that to Christians like John, Fred, Billnjune and George though, who support racists like Ted Bundy
...It's amazing what damage a blind political agenda can do to a person's common sense.
...he perfect storm for a empty man like Trump to be the champion of narcissism, obnoxiousness and degeneracy.
...More like business as usual for right wing Republicans, isn't it?
...Can you spell Hypocrite?  R. E. P. U. B. L. I. C. A. N.   C. H. R. I. S. T. I. A. N.
...I have been saying or over 10 years about the obvious "HYPOCRISY" of the far right, radical Republican Religious (not Christian) movement
...The question is, would Christ be a supporter of Trump or Hillary as fit to lead us? The answer is no.
...And certainly not the hypocrisy of the morally bankrupt right wing morally blind Christian end of the Republican Party.
...our almost weekly parade of crooked Right wing fundamentalist so-called Christians of the aleged "More Moral" Republican party
...yet another Bush backing fundamentalist Christian bites the dust.
...Well folks, you can keep drinking the Republican Christian Kool-Aide if you want, but these Republicans false prophets are taking you for a ride
...maybe you are as dumb as they think you are.
...How many of these cxlowns have to be exposed before you understand their game of playintg Christian for votes?
...is the same thing that Bush and his blind pseudo-christian fundamentalist crusading followers will never understand.
...Only someone with the intellec of Bush wouldn't understand that.
...Nothing Bush has done in his 8 years has been honest.
...But with Morons in the white house, unable to reason intelligently,...
... Save all the lies for FOX, the Republican Right Wing Network (america's news version of al Jazeera),
...I guess you get tired of the continuing list of Right Wing Christian hypocrites (All Republican)
...lemming Christian right just keeps declaring how the Republicans are so much more moral than Democrats.
...How can anyone say these Republicans are more moral?
...Republican party is the party of morality? No, it's the party of sneaky sniveling hypocrites who care about nothing but money.
...Can’t wait to hear more on this typical wingnut and his hypocritical Baloney!
...I’m sure GOD has forgiven him, so that will make it all okay for all you Fundamentalists.
...Bush would be at the top of any normal man's list. This is the worst President this country has ever seen, bar none.
...This guy is so arrogant and stupid that I do believe that he is retarded!
...And the Christian fundamentalist right applaud this.
...That is why I will never join with a fundamentalist right wing Republican Christian, because these are the last people who will get into the kingdom of heaven.
...not to mention the right wing Republican Christian snake oil salesmen "Pat Robinson"
...week after week anothere of these Republican self-righteous Christian demagogs showing their immorality,
...Now Dick Chaney and other of George Bush's bunch of moral midgets think that they are a law untro themselves as they practice criminal activity
...It seems every week a new Bush Republican moral Christian gets either charged or busted for something else.
...Or is it just more of the Bush administration's "ignorance gone wild?
...What a Joke and a sad representation of Christ you are!!
...I'm getting sick of the character assassinations you fundamentalists engage in every time I post something
...Let that be just another prime example of the fundamentalist right wing Christian attitude of closing off anything that they don't want to hear.
...This christian hypocrite submitted his resignation yesterday (Friday)
...another Right wing moral majority Republican Christian will again demonstrate how much worse they are than the people they hate so.
...Who's the real Moron?
...Don't you realize that this is just what a lot of right wing fundamentalist Christians want? They want to shut everyone up.
...Is it Christian for conservative (alleged) Christians to call for the government to go out and assasinate other heads of state?
...Only to Trump Republicans. To Christians, no, it is not relevant!
...What race someone is has no place being used here as a club, but typical of a lot of Christian Republicans.
...Lieberman is a Christian, and a lot better one than you so deal with that.
... Take your insensitive comments back to the group that supports that clown you support for President.
...These fundamentalists are a black mark on christianity right down the line.
...we shouldn't be there having our kids die for nothing more than a Bush League plan ...a failure before it was put into action.
...not be deceived and not make ignorant decisions based on nothing more than a candidate saying he's a christian against abortion
...And I think real Christians have it, and right wing fundamentalists christians don't have it. It's as simple as that.
...In case the fundamentalist so-called Christians have forgortten, it is,
...Still waiting for the first fundi to be honest enough to answer.
... a lot of right wing conservative fanatical Christians frustrated and feeding into this hatred and fear.
...Christians are spending their time making unchristian remarks, feeding into racism
...I don't know why anyone ....is surprised by the racist and right wing fanatical Republican support for Donald Trump
...If you would have studied history, you would know that is exactly how Hitler came to power.
... they pretty much flushed it all down the toilet by being so dumb that they couldn't see Trump was a cancer
...lumped into the clan of support for Donald Trump because of clowns like Ben Carson and the dipsy TV preachers
...these are right wing fundamentalist Christians who think Bush is an arm of God doing God's bidding,
 ...a long stream of all Republican politicians, all claiming the high moral ground ...yet being caught in Homosexual activity, in stealing, in corruption and in adultery and lying. It is because they are sodomites, thieves, liars and hypocrites.
...This is the kind of thoughtless fundamentalist crap that we are dealing with in Erik. 
...This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard thus far, and sounds like something Bush would say.
...Looks like the circus is in town, because this clown says ...
...How can you call yourself a Christian and say things like that?
...now it's three Christians with integrity willing to speak the truth...you might be in danger of becoming good people!
...What a joke you right wing fundamentalists are.
...What a lie. You're worse than Bush.
...Republican Fundamentalist FOX network propaganda that isn't worth responding to.
...this country is dealing with in the Bush fundamentalist right wing Christian supporters. These people are dangerous!
...See, this is the back woods mentality we're dealing with when we're dealing with fundamentalist Republican Christians.
...but they still have one thing that you and John do not have. Christian Integrity!
...he fact that it's the Republican politicians that are weekly caught in immoral and unchristian behavior week after week
...My input is that it is unchristian to be anti US government. And that includes the tax-crazed tea party revolutionists.
...And yet another right wing cross waving Christian Republican elected because of his great high moral standards
...What hypocrites these fundamentalist Christians are.
...Don't tell me, let me guess. You're not a Right Wing Republican Fundamemntalist Christian? Right?
...Reading over some of these old posts from the right wing Christians, these guys must be smoking something.
...it was just the same right wing repulican Christian propaganda and spin without any intelligent looking at the facts
...The same right wing Republican Christian wingnuts who rubber stamp all Bush's idiotic ideas over there.
...When will you right wing Fundamentalist lemmings get it through your thick skulls
...The truth is, we're the true Patriots, not the money grubbing right wing Christians.
... But as usual, the right wing fundamentalist Christians are oblivious to the realities of the real world.
... but unfortunately, there are a lot of morons in the Republican party.
...Most of the problems we have are in Republican administrations.
... Instead of seeing if Our President has an IQ higher than a field mouse,
...then all the self righteous Republican fundamentalists can blame it on the liberal Media and the Democrats.
...They are Insane and don't have the sense a child is born with.
...A great many right wing fundamentalist Christians still support the President's actions
...These so-called christians live in a world all their own
...It doesn't just sound racist Melanie, it is racist! Whenever you hear the key code words
...Usually, they are so deceived, they don't even know they're racists. We see it with Fred,...
...when John was ...rambled on about states rights, the confederate flag and his support for the racist Cliven Bundy stealing federal land.
...and you wonder why people are against the right wing fundamentalist Christians
...These guys are crusaders, out of their ever-loving minds!
...Where are all the right wing Christian conservative Bush supporters now?
... Come out from under your rocks and face reality! Bush "WAS" like a rock, but dumber, and it is verified that he is the worst president we have ever had.
...am too practical to believe these so-called good fundamentalist right wing fanatical Bush Christians
...As I said before, Bush puts his "big business" relationships before anything, and that apparently includes the safety of U.S. Citizens.
...some people claiming they are Christian, and think their hatred is Christian.
...There is no room within Christianity for this racist, bigoted, "let's keep all Muslims, Africans, Filipinos, etc., out" movement from the far-right that demonstrates a lack of intellect.
...You are a person who is able to admit their mistakes. Unlike the right-wing fundamentalist Christian crusaders
...Where are all the right-wing crusading Christian wanna-bees now? Hiding in the cracks like roaches when the light comes on.
...I think he's an imbecile and I believe that anyone with half a brain should know that.
...Yes,I'm questioning the intelligence of today's Christians who swoon at the altar of Trump.
... I'm honest about it. Not like aquatic claiming to be unbiased when everyone here knows better.
...I used to talk Christianity. But that was when there were a lot smarter people around here
...Well, people are stupid.
...Yes, they are all stupid! You heard me right, I said it and I meant it.
...Yes, they are stupid, stupid, STUPID!
...And it is just this type of unintelligent comment that has kept the Bush administration marred in Iraq.
...All this because we decided to elect a dumb President just because he said he was christian and against abortion.
...Assuming the Bush administration actually thinks about anything but helping the rich get richer
...Well you really shouldn't tell lies miss Christian.
...that's just like the right wing so called Christians to do that and try and make the real issue vague.
...you would like to censore us because we don't hold your right wing Republican fundamentalist view of Bush
...and no Republican fundamentalist propaganda about liberal media is going to change that.
... The next time you hear Trump tell the truth, will be the first time.
...But I understand, like Bush, you just don't care,
...Because, believe it or not, I am a Christian also and I am not the communist liberal idiot others portray me as
...I said "Christian Fundamentalist Republicans" are the biggest hypocrites in washington,
...you mean Bush's ungodly agenda of throwing away young lives needlessly ...
...No, but we know he's stupid.
...But as it stands, it's the fundamentalist Christian politicians, claiming a higher morality than the democrats
...there are more than a few Right wing fanatical Republican TV Christians who do this.
...so as not to drink of the Republican Christian Koolaide that most other Christians are drinking of.
...Christian hypocrites hiding behind fundamentalism. Anyone ever heard of the NRA?
...But I think fundamentalist Christians are hooked on it like a drug.
...he is a "confirmed continual liar, delusional, egocentric, licentious, and more than a little monomaniac.
...A constant LIAR! For anyone to call this man a Christian or to support his many disturbing beliefs and ideas, including his lies, dangerous paranoia and desire to torture the lawless, is to demean the name Christian.
...you have no idea what Christianity is. Nor any of the right or left wing fanatical anti-government revolutionary types.
...'ll tell you like I told the fanatical right wing Christians before.
...That's what Christians are supposed to do, not right wing fundamentalist apologists for Genocide, when it suits their purpose.
...Better for us to base it on the lives of Anti-government right wing fanatical revolutionary-wannabes.
... I am a different type of Christian than you and your gun tote'n anti-government friends
...and even as we speak, Republican right wing Christian Tom Delay ...
...When do we wake up to the hypocrisy of the republicans masqurading as Christians?
...You've seen the actions of the so called right wing fundamentalist Christians. They will steal the gold from a dying man's teeth
...I'll grant you that so called christian republicans are dishonest and hypocrites, ...
...They are blinded by the Bush rhetoric about christianity, when I doubt very seriously Bush is a Christian at all. He has no real morality
...They wanted change from what that moron Bush was doing,
...you can be proud of yourself, that despite the railings of the Christian right and racists
...Right wing radical anti-government types masquerading as God's people upholding God's right wing political party led by the TV/Radio Limbaugh-like demagogues.
...It's just that type of lunatic thinking that got Timothy McVeigh all worked up and pushed him over the edge.
...It's just that there are so many dishonest and hypocritical christians today that just refuse to accept the truth
...He has lied and tied his invasion of Iraq to the 9/11 tragedy to gain support. Yes, I call it a lie because that's exactly what it is.
...Bush, and all the other people using what can only be described as dishonesty, in using the the name of Christ
...If Bush would just stop listening to that "certifiable" vice-President Dick Cheney,
...What kind of christian lies to themselves?
...What a Joke these fundamentalists are.
...You and the President are delusionary.
...Just what we need. More gun tote'n Christians with canons ready to blow the head off the first car thief that shows up.
... Republicans and Democrats, they're both idiots.
...Sunni Zealots of Iraq free and now they're Isis, the direct result of that policy of George Bush.
...And the only one with half a brain here is a moron named Trump,
...It's George Bush revisited! That same dumb mentality.
...The conservative Christian right in this country don't want to hear that, because it's the truth.
...I have a problem with right wing radical tax evading Republican fundamentalist racists hypocrites.
...But you'll not see me supporting racists freeloaders longing for slavery like John did,
...don't confuse radical extremist anti-christian activity with Christian fundamentalism. Christianity shouldn't be affiliated with these nuts.
...I attribute all this  to the actions of George Bush and the right wing radicals in power at the time.
...Never will I turn into the Right wing Fundamentalist Hear no Evil, See no evil, speak no evil false Christian types.
...Another Right Wing Republican who doesn't understand our system of government
...How many body bags are required before you fundamentalist republican christians decide that it's really not worth it?
...and these tea Party Zealots like Bundy are merely good Christians who just happen to say racist and dumb things
...What Christian would vote for trump.
...I don't think there is much chance of reasoning with supposed-christians on biblical doctrine who feel this way about democrats.
...But the majority of people who "claim" to be christian are under this delusion that the republicans are god's party,
...It's the delusion that Republican are the true Christians that I have a problem with. 
...The other side is the fundamentalist right wing religious radicals and crusaders who don't understand christianity,
...You are living in a dream world, like most fundamentalist republican Christians.
...I do hope that your son woke up Christmas Day to find a new shiny firearm under the tree and a box of ammo.
...Guns have a way of making a right wing reformed Christian man feel empowered and secure
...What is wrong with them? It's called christian dishonesty and masquerades in many different forms.
...I call these alleged christians, hypocrites and dishonest people who park their brains at the dooir of the white house?
...I just get sick of the morons who continue to equate Republicans to christianity and Bush as doing God's work.
..."We have to back the republicans if we're christian" is the thinking of those who park their brains at the door.
... If it wasn't for God, these type people would have caused the world to be nuked years ago during the cold war.
...It's difficult to hear the truth about a party that has consistently revealed itself to be less than Christian.
...I don't dislike Bush supporters, I dislike that republicans are such hypocrites,
...The fact is, your wonderful drunken Christian President George Bush lied
...because you want to believe Bush is a good christian man
...ll right wing Republican Christians have handguns and assault weapons.
...this would be very funny if it wasn't for right wing so-called Christians calling for violence against our Patriotic Federal officers
...any Republican who doesn't believe we should take up arms to kill Federal agents is called a traitor.
...These are the type people John is supporting.
...They are a sick bunch as their posts illustrate.
...They are what they are, and Christ would have nothing to do with them.
...You know, the ones who bombed the federal building. Self-defined conservative Christian Patriots.


It could go on further, but my point (which will be lost on Philly) as far as I'm concerned, is made. I get that he spews the left's talking points like clockwork, yet truly I'm not concerned about his political views on this forum. I get that his anger is based on his beliefs, however foolish, that Christians who are also Conservative and/or Republican are stupid, dishonest, unthinking Christians, or actually aren't Christians at all. I can't help but notice how easily he jumps to his favorite hobby-horse, his bias is extreme and unbridled.

In any case, he clearly believes that anyone who doesn't agree with his inane statements is a lying hypocrite ... and he is quick to associate those that won't believe him with everything evil. Philly doesn't mind slander, mocking, ridicule, insults, guilt by association. He has no problem inserting his hateful re-interpretation of your beliefs as fact, and then declaring you a racist. Again, it's Saul Alinsky 101.

I realize most everyone here ignores his rants, they're not worth refuting. Even making this post is not worth the effort. I judge Philly to be a hater, been doing this gig on this forum for many years. He measures how much he hates you by the distance you are from his political world-view. That is, he prideful assumes that he is the standard all people are to be judged. If you aren't in agreement with him you're evil. He declares himself arrogantly to be a "thinking Christian" , disagree and ipso facto you aren't a Christian, you aren't thinking - you're an idiot and must be one of those stupid Bush-lovers or blind Trump supporters or friend of racists, etc.  Yes, it's ridiculous, stupid, and vile, but this is his history, his long sordid history here.

Here's my problem. A great deal of Philly Dawg's posts are dripping with hatred, he only complements those that agree with him. I really don't need hate on a Christian forum. Especially hateful rants based on ignorant talking points from the left designed to produce exactly the kind of reaction by those like him, biased to hate Conservatives. Note: Conservatives believe the Left to be wrong, that is, their policies are wrong. The Left believes Conservatives are evil (if they could declare a moral judgment) and they are stupid, that is the difference. The Left hates with the most cruel hatred. The Left feels no need to debate on substance. They know they are morally superior. End of discussion.

Philly commonly poisons the well by insinuating the other person is too stupid or unChristian, because a "smart" person and a "true" Christian would agree with him. Everyone gets labelled "you're a racist, a right-wing fanatic, a hypocrite" or some similar disparaging attack because they don't agree with him. Yet, I defend his right to argue his position, but I have a problem with his endless assaults and ad hominem attacks.  It appears the moderators consider the domain he lurks in to be given more freedom in order to allow debate and share opinions, but this isn't about opinions. What I'm trying to make clear with this post is that this IS about the worst sort of offensive behavior on the part of someone who claims to be a Christian. Mocking and ridicule of different Republican presidents is speaking evil of rulers, and shouldn't be permitted, by anyone. Insulting others, calling names, slandering their character ... that isn't a debate tactic or opinion, it's what the heathen do ... and shouldn't be named here.

I don't want to restrict his posting, or anyone's posts. I'm fine with him saying any ridiculous thing he wants or if he makes a valid point - I'd applaud him. If he could do it civilly in something approaching a Christ-like manner, that would be great. The moderators need to be clear that no one here is permitted to make false claims via putting words in people's mouths, then declaring they support racist groups or people (which Philly unilaterally declares to be racist to suit his needs) and then by association declares his opponent must also be a racist since they support racist people (or must be stupid, or non-Christian, or evil, etc). I mean if you're a Conservative - you must be a racist, right? That's the Progressive Left's talking point, but it isn't fact - it isn't true, it is just meant to score political points with the weak minded and uniformed. Philly is just doing what the Left wants - he's sadly a pawn who thinks himself to be an independent thinker but is enslaved and bound by his hate).  It is time (past time) - this has to stop! There is a huge difference between slander and debate. Debate requires considered and thoughtful rebuttal - or logical arguments, not insults.

And for those that care, after looking back through Philly's hate filled posts, his many dogmatic assertions that are not based on any facts just emotions, his immediate need to attack and mock nearly everyone ... looking back over these disparaging posts one thing is clear, there is no "debate" going on.

He lumps you in with Hitler or someone he hates (like Bush or Trump or Republicans in general), then says you're just like them and must want whatever evil thing he declares they want, and goes on to call you a right-wing unthinking crazy who worships the president and is blind to the "truth" (truth is whatever Philly Dawg privately believes is true based on his personal bias).

That isn't debate, not even close. That is Philly Dawg's way of being an opinionated jerk, and not having to prove any wild assertion he pompously declares to be fact (he says it is fact if you are a "thinking Christians", but if you disagree you obviously are one of those gun-toting, war-mongers, that worships George Bush and thinks Jesus was a Republican ... you must be an unthinking "unChristian".)  Beyond imbecilic, but again, he can say whatever he wants... but he cannot be permitted to slander and insult others. I don't care about me personally - water off a duck ... but it is an ugly smear on this forum, which I actually want the best for.

I think most of us realize that his rants are laughable nonsense by a partisan. I certainly don't take him seriously. But I do think his vileness is a black mark on this forum. In fact, I wouldn't recommend this forum to others simply because of the level of unChristian discourse on display here, especially if not chiefly from Philly Dawg. Again, he can say anything he wants but he can't impugn people's character, imply through innuendo and inference that people are associated with other groups or movements, and then declare them to support these groups or people, and then further claim these groups or people he hates are racists, and lastly therefore announce you to be a racist (or some other vile epitaph he decides to label you with). Nor should he be permitted to slander and insult our president(s), whether Democrat or Republican. I'm not saying he and others can't disagree with policies ... he can do that, but he can't call them an idiot, a moron, stupid, or some other insult.

As you can see at the start of this post it is easy to slander and defame, any half-wit can do it. I can easily take something said and align that person with some other group and declare them to be one and the same. But most don't because they know it is dishonest. Philly Dawg doesn't. The last thing I want to see when coming to this site to relax and read Biblical articles by Christians or read Bible discussion is his hate-filled rants against the sitting-president or some forum member or some Republican boogie-man caricature that he feels the need to wail against. I've reduced posting here to avoid having to see his insulting post headings, I don't know who enjoys his hate. I wouldn't associate myself with someone like Philly, I don't want to be around that sort of person. I don't need to bring that into my home either.

I am a Christian. I am also a Conservative. No apologies. I don't need to come to a so-called Christian forum to see the most ugly (and untrue) assaults on my beliefs. Under normal circumstances with a rational person I could discuss politics or whatever, we could be civil, but not with him. Trying to discuss a topic with Philly is pointless. He slanders, calls you a name, and declares you a "right-wing Christian fundamentalist cool-aid drinking hypocrite" or something similar. Which is why I call him pathetic. He truly is.

Well, I don't own this website, it isn't my call, obviously. If I did his outlandish tongue would have been bridled long ago. If he spoke in person to people like he speaks through his posts on this forum I'd either laugh or shake my head and walk away. But it isn't possible to avoid him here. I don't have to invest my time or energy on a Christian forum that permits such behavior. I wouldn't attend a church that permitted such behavior either. It isn't cute or endearing. We shouldn't have to avert our eyes from every nasty hateful disparaging rant that he makes. He brings dishonor to this forum in a big way. It is a shame you apparently as moderators don't see it. This forum is quick to correct a brother when debating the Bible, but apparently turns a blind-eye to the worst behavior not even named amongst the generally more civil heathens on other forums. Shame.

Well, you can run the forum as you choose, and indeed you will. But I can also vote with my mouse - I don't have to attend it. I wouldn't invite Philly into my house with that mouth, and likewise, I don't see a reason to do so on a display monitor. Again, I'm happy to have open discussion. I don't want to restrict discussion or debate. Yet allowing the continued attacking and mocking of high-officials, the President, Republicans, Conservatives, and insulting Christians by one uniformed childish partisan is not going to bring more Christians here to this site. It is and will drive them away.

If I want vile behavior there are a plethora of so-called Christian websites that feature it prominently. For some reason I'm hoping (and praying) for higher moral standards of decorum here. But if not, thanks for the many years here.

john
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Philly Dawg on March 29, 2017, 12:46:24 PM
"....conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots who take up arms against U.S. Police officials because they want free grazing land, or backing obvious racists and criminals like Cliven Bundy and his ilk, as you did."

Philly Dawg, still an irrepressible slanderer, I know very well. You remain as pathetic now as you were then.

I didn't ruin your witness for Christ, you did with your constantly backing right wing money grubbing fanatics, racists, tax evaders, anti-government types and excusing the vile despicable words of slave owners of the past because they were of the Reformed persuasion. you forget, the internet doesn't erase your words, it assures they are there forever. And anyone interested, some of John's thoughts and words can be found here. I didn't write them, you did.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2993.0

If you have time, read it all the way through people, to get a good idea of his utter contempt for any of the Christians here who happened to disagreed with his view. He called conservative Republicans here liberals, said one was disagreeing with him just because she was black, insulted a newbie who made one comment, and on and on. And he calls me the bad guy?


Quote
I'm not for heavy handed government intervention nor rebellion on the part of citizenry, neither one is acceptable, not that you care what I think.

I know what you think because you typed it in your posts on the above thread. And to call what they did to Cliven Bundy heavy handed? Wow, President Obama and the federal government police officers were so patient with this nut case. Any other administration faced with armed whack-a-doos brandishing guns and threatening these federal police would have gone in there and created another ruby ridge. Yet because of your hatred for these government police, you call it heavy handed. The only reason no one died was because they were not heavy handed with this nut case and his cohorts.


Quote
The solution to his unpaid grazing fees on BLM land needed to be resolved in the court system, as it is currently being done.


It was, and thankfully this clown was sent to prison and will be convicted. And for those who are new to John's rants, this man Cliven Bundy said (and I quote) "I Talked To God And He told Me To Start A Civil War." Of course John claims he's personally not for civil disobedience against the government, but he backed Cliven (and continues to) in his actions, excusing his words that blacks were better off in slavery because they'd have something to do. Don't you all think it's amazing that all the black people in this country, and they all have nothing to do because of Democrats. The generalizations were off the wall and he accuses me of generalizations. The pot calling the kettle, much?  John condemned nearly everyone here in this forum who dared to disagree with him. See for yourself because he's surely going to say I misrepresent him.


Quote
Let me give it a try. You support Obama and left-wing causes

You see, this is what I mean. I don't support Obama, nor do I support left wing causes. As everyone here knows, I'm for a strong military, against abortions, against the overthrow of the internet security privacy law Obama passed and the Republican house just voted down yesterday allowing your private internet information to be sold without your permission. But John throws that word "liberal" out here just like Trump does in order to lump everyone who disagrees with his policies as being left wing and supporting their causes. Obviously we're not, and he knows it. He says these things without one shred of proof that I have ever supported a left wing cause. Talk about slander.


Quote
- you hate Bush and Trump, though you'll deny it.

If I hated them I would not deny it. I don't hate Bush, I think he was foolish and his thinking overly simplistic where he couldn't think things through. As a result, we have this chaos in the middle east and the economy was in ruins that was directly contributable to his actions. He was dumb as a rock, but his heart was in the right place most times. Even your hero Trump said much more about his disaster as President than I ever did. And he's your God.

I don't hate Trump either, I think he is a clueless, despicable, money grubbing, vain, self-serving, absentee president who is part senile, part mentally deficient and all narcissistic. He, as well as most far right wing Republicans think ideology is more important than the truth or facts. How any Christian could support him I do not know. Unlike Bush, he's a chronic liar and there is nothing good I can say about him. He seems to have no conscience, no redeeming qualities, and the fact that right wing fanatics worship him is more than enough reason to not support him. So don't mix Bush with Trump. Trump is a hundred times worse and more dangerous, and I believe mentally incapable of any honesty.


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Now I don't really think you are a racist ... you may be, certainly you are ignorant, rude, and childish ... but I have no way to know you inner heart about race. I would not seriously call anyone, including you such a vile thing just to try and win a forum debate about the decline of Christianity.

Winning a debate about the decline of Christianity is the least of my concerns. If I were a racist, you could present evidence where I've made racist statements. All you present is rhetoric. My concern is that you don't know the meaning of the word racism, as you've already implied that one would have to want to kill someone because of his race in order to be a racist (See John's post in the thread). These type warped ideas, from alleged Christians, are evidence enough about the decline of Christianity. I would only ask everyone here, would Christ be supporting a man like Cliven Bundy if he were here with the Apostles today? The only objective answer is no. So the question is, why is John, who is allegedly a follower of Christ, supporting this racist criminal?

BTW, the Nevada trial for Cliven Bundy, 18 others set for this year.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/04/nevada_trial_for_cliven_bundy.html
 

Quote
You far right guys seem to get conservative Christian confused with radicals activists, tax evaders and racists. A real conservative Christian is none of those things.

True. A conservative Christian isn't a radical, or a tax evader, or a racist.

Then why are you supporting the Radical, tax evading racist Cliven Bundy? Why are you making excuses for the racist rants of Reformed authors like R.L. Dabney on this forum? That's the mystery for some here.


Quote
Concerning Republicans, Presidents, and Conservative Christians you have these idiotic comments to your credit. See if you smell the flavor of Christ in your rants (I don't):

...And all the nitwits who voted for this man, knowing he was a mental deficient

I repeat, people are nitwits for voting for Trump, knowing he was a mental deficient. Absolutely true, as today he has the lowest approval rating of any President in U.S. history. Does that not say people think they made a mistake? You're proving my point.

Quote
...he's certainly the most dishonest and incompetent


Don't tell me you're going to disagree with that, considering the massive number of confirmed deliberate lies this man has told, not even including that Obama wiretapped him.


Quote
...And he did a pretty good job in office compared to this clown in there now.

I have about four times as much respect for Bush as I have for Trump. Bush made mistakes, Trump makes Pinocchio look like a saint.

Quote
...It's a "known fact" that  most violent right-wing, racist and libertarian activities occur mostly with Registered right wing Republicans.

Let me know when you get to a statement that isn't true. I'm going to take a nap now.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Clifford Grodin on March 29, 2017, 03:11:33 PM
When Christians start supporting the message of the likes of Cliven Bundy and Trump rather than the life and message of Christ, then it is a sure sign of the decline of Christianity. It's a sad state of affairs. By the way, as a patriotic conservative, I support the federal officers over Cliven and his armed thugs any day of the week. No contest!

There once was a program called "Back to the Bible," I think we need to take that to heart. Cliven is not Christian, Trump is not Christian, Obama is not Christian. Back to the Bible, back to our roots.

PS Loved Tony's article about being anti-government. Very topical and sober thinking in the midst of all this emotionalism. I just placed a link to it on my facebook page.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Frank Mortimer on March 30, 2017, 03:49:08 AM

Concerning Republicans, Presidents, and Conservative Christians you have these idiotic comments to your credit.

...And all the nitwits who voted for this man, knowing he was a mental deficient
...he's certainly the most dishonest and incompetent
...And he did a pretty good job in office compared to this clown in there now.
...the fundamentalist right cannot deal with the truth of this administration's stupid actions.
...it's not about protection at all, it's about fear, anti government and radical anti Christian ideas.
...How do you spell  H Y P O C R I T E.  You spell it Greedy Right Wing Republican Christians.
...it is all because of the stupid removal of Saddam...by the Republicans, of course led by our great Crusader George Bush.
...people like you don't understand that conservative doesn't mean backing anti-government zealots
...Just what we need, another far right wing fanatic professing Christianity
...What does it say about their Christianity that they can support a man like Trump?
...A bombastic, hateful, pretentious, prideful fear monger who will most assuredly tear this country apart.
..."Make america great again" should be "I will make you prideful," and "I will make america hate again."
...You'll be lambasted by Right Wing Republicans who still believe .... there some benefit to all those soldiers dying in Vietnam
...you're missing the pioint, as all right wing Christian Republican apologists want to do.
...For years we have had to listen to Republican Christian hypocrites claim the high ground
...Republicans right wing Christians have shown themselves hypocrites of the first order, ...with the Scribes and Pharisees of old.
...What is wrong with these right wing religious fundamentalist nuts who think that killing and war is the answer to all the world's problems?
... can't believe the trash that comes out of the right wing's mouths in the name of the Lord. I would call it blasphemy, but that's just me.
...It seems every week a new Bush Republican moral Christian gets either charged or busted for something else.
...most Christians give a pass to the right wing fundamentalist Christian perverts, nuts, fascists and political nitwits.
...But to all those fundamentalist Republican Christians here who blame the liberal media for all our woes
...Some of you people who call yourselves Republican Christians should read the constitution sometime.
...Nobody told Trump to be a jackass, and nobody put words in Trump's mouth, he's the fool who speaks what is in his heart.
...But no one but the most die-hard right wing Republican radicals has ever said Trump was wise.
...Do you want an immature man and savage with his finger on the nuclear button in the white house?
...I don't know what kind of "stupid pills" Republicans have been taking to stand behind this clown to be commander and chief,
...you should have never gone to the polls in droves to nominate a moron like "Donald John Trump."
...Christian Trump supporters are a "Cult of Personality" and it really doesn't matter what he does they will back him.
...These Trump supporters are blind to his evil and nip picking on emails as if it were murder. 
...The Bush administration is incompetent.
...Trump starts this whole racial divide in this country (evidenced by the unchristian racial comments even here)
...giving people the green light to hate groups based on ethnic origin, ...when his backers start attacking Jews, Blacks and shooting Muslims
...That's like the right wing Republicans claiming his policies will make America safer,
...And Trump exploiting the wife of the SEAL last night, that he got killed by his incompetence and neglect,
...The same good old fashioned Christian racism/xenophobia rears its ugly head again in the face of Donald Trump
...Trump attracts people like Fred because he plays to their political hatred, greed, fears, racism and promotes a "us against them" mentality.
...it's just that the Right Wing anti-government Crusaders and gun lobbyists always seem to get Christianity confused with trailer park politics.
... rather than have children thinking Christians should go around carrying assult weapons to attack the government Federal agencies
...It's amazing what damage a blind political agenda can do to a person's common sense.
...he perfect storm for a empty man like Trump to be the champion of narcissism, obnoxiousness and degeneracy.
...Can you spell Hypocrite?  R. E. P. U. B. L. I. C. A. N.   C. H. R. I. S. T. I. A. N.
...I have been saying or over 10 years about the obvious "HYPOCRISY" of the far right, radical Republican Religious (not Christian) movement
...our almost weekly parade of crooked Right wing fundamentalist so-called Christians of the alleged "More Moral" Republican party
...Well folks, you can keep drinking the Republican Christian Kool-Aide if you want, but these Republicans false prophets are taking you for a ride
...But with Morons in the white house, unable to reason intelligently,...
... Save all the lies for FOX, the Republican Right Wing Network (america's news version of al Jazeera),
...How can anyone say these Republicans are more moral?
...Republican party is the party of morality? No, it's the party of sneaky sniveling hypocrites who care about nothing but money.
...This guy is so arrogant and stupid that I do believe that he is retarded!
...And the Christian fundamentalist right applaud this.
...That is why I will never join with a fundamentalist right wing Republican Christian, because these are the last people who will get into the kingdom of heaven.
...not to mention the right wing Republican Christian snake oil salesmen "Pat Robinson"
...I'm getting sick of the character assassinations you fundamentalists engage in every time I post something
...This christian hypocrite submitted his resignation yesterday (Friday)
...another Right wing moral majority Republican Christian will again demonstrate how much worse
...Don't you realize that this is just what a lot of right wing fundamentalist Christians want? They want to shut everyone up.
...Is it Christian for conservative (alleged) Christians to call for the government to go out and assasinate other heads of state?
...What race someone is has no place being used here as a club, but typical of a lot of Christian Republicans.
...Lieberman is a Christian, and a lot better one than you so deal with that.
...And I think real Christians have it, and right wing fundamentalists christians don't have it. It's as simple as that.
... a lot of right wing conservative fanatical Christians frustrated and feeding into this hatred and fear.
...Christians are spending their time making unchristian remarks, feeding into racism
...If you would have studied history, you would know that is exactly how Hitler came to power.
... they pretty much flushed it all down the toilet by being so dumb that they couldn't see Trump was a cancer
 ...a long stream of all Republican politicians, all claiming the high moral ground ...yet being caught in Homosexual activity, in stealing, in corruption and in adultery and lying. It is because they are sodomites, thieves, liars and hypocrites.

...now it's three Christians with integrity willing to speak the truth...you might be in danger of becoming good people!



Gotta say, I don't think these comments by Philly Dawg are idiotic. I agree with nearly all of this list if I'm being honest with myself. I don't want to agree with it, but for conscience sake I have to. Calling Trump a clown seems to fit exactly my perspective of him. He's more amusing than serious as a leader. As a Christian, I can't stand his "say anything about anyone" regardless of if it's true type of politics. And the Hypocrisy of "some" Republicans  is demonstrated in their controlling the Presidency, the House and the Senate and then pointing the finger and blaming the defeat of the overhaul of Obamacare on Democrats. If that's not the picture of Republican dishonesty and stupidity, I don't know what is. Republican politicians claiming the high moral ground just doesn't sit well with me when I see what issues and sides they are on.  I'm just saying, this list is as damaging to Republicans as it is a condemnation of Philly Dawg. Since I find that over half of these things said seem true to me. Including that the Bush doctrine in the middle east started all this mess over there, and almost all Republicans backed him.  Moreover, he's right, for Christians to offer support to Cliven Bundy is just dumb. Is there another word for it?  That's my opinion.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: George on March 30, 2017, 04:42:02 AM
 )idonotagree( Well Frank, I guess we can add another to the list of liberals who are out to destroy this President because he won't back their liberal agenda. I back what John has said and it is now clear that this forum has become a stronghold for liberals and Democrats. I don't know who is worse at distorting the truth, you or the media. It seems that the only Christians here who are supporting the President is Me, Bram, John, Fred, James Heckman and aquatic. The rest of you seem like liberal socialists intent on taxing us to death. Well, the election of Trump proved one thing. We're not going to take it anymore from the Amillennial leftists who hate conservative Christians who stand up for their rights against minority groups, east coast liberals and overzealous federal officers.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on March 30, 2017, 12:08:58 PM

 :idonotagree: Well Frank, I guess we can add another to the list of liberals who are out to destroy this President because he won't back their liberal agenda.

What "liberal" agenda would that be George. Because when I search Frank's messages here on the forum, I can't find one single liberal message. But just like the rest of the single-minded people here, you use the word liberal as a stick to try and beat Christians down or make good Christians appear something that they obviously are not. Show me one single post where Frank is pushing a liberal agenda. Just one single post. If you cannot, then you are a false witness just like Trump.


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I back what John has said and it is now clear that this forum has become a stronghold for liberals and Democrats.

Just because we Christians despise fear mongering, racism and rebellion against the government does not make us liberals or Democrats, it's an example of conscience and how we follow Christ as real Christians, not just those who talk the talk without walking the walk.


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It seems that the only Christians here who are supporting the President is Me, Bram, John, Fred, James Heckman and aquatic.

While looking at your list I can't help but notice. All of you (excluding "maybe" James) have made what can be called racist comments, so what does that say about this crew you've assembled? Your own words about minorities say more about you all than any other witness. Your resentment towards others groups and races and support for radicals is well documented. But what has this to do with the decline of Christianity? Although racism would mean the church is declining.


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Well, the election of Trump proved one thing. We're not going to take it anymore from the Amillennial leftists who hate conservative Christians who stand up for their rights against minority groups, East and West coast liberals, and overzealous federal officers.

Amllennialists? The only one in that list who is not Amillennialist is you and Fred (anyone correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe you're just trying to get in good with them thinking they might support your Dispensational false gospel? But Amillennialism has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Beside, Trump probably thinks Amillennialists are an ethnic group in the former Soviet Republic. The bottom line (getting back on topic) is that the decline of Christianity didn't come from Democrats or Republicans, it came from people like yourself who take politics seriously, but not the Bible. Frank was right, if you spent half as much time in the Bible as you all do looking after the world's politics, you'd see your error and correct it.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: John on March 30, 2017, 10:29:33 PM
OK. I'm asking for a moderator to decide if you are going to allow this Philly Dawg, and anyone else for that matter, to continue his unbridled slander, defamation, insults, trash talk, and ad hominem attacks against forum members?

Obviously the answer is "Yes we will", but before I leave I want to hear it from a moderator.

I would never belong to any group that permits such libel and slander to continue unabated and uncorrected. I don't abide disgusting and vile people - yes, these hate-filled demagogues and smear merchants are everywhere, they are unreasoning beasts - but are they welcome here?, that is the last and only question to be decided.

If no moderator bothers to reply in the next few days I'll assume the answer is "Yes we support Philly Dawg". Gotta be sure I'm correct about the kind of forum this has become.

john
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on March 30, 2017, 10:44:38 PM

 :idonotagree: Well Frank, I guess we can add another to the list of liberals who are out to destroy this President because he won't back their liberal agenda.

Frank's not liberal. Have you even read his posts? What makes you and John assume everyone who doesn't like Trump is liberal?  ::)
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on March 31, 2017, 02:56:39 AM
OK. I'm asking for a moderator to decide if you are going to allow this Philly Dawg, and anyone else for that matter, to continue his unbridled slander, defamation, insults, trash talk, and ad hominem attacks against forum members?

I think that he pointed everyone in the direction of your own posts about Bundy and what you said about the Federal officers being terrorists. Tell me, what part of that is untrue? What part of Trump being a compulsive liar is untrue? What part of his saying Bram and Aquatic made racist statements is untrue. Maybe you want some crackers with that whine? If Christians here don't want people to comment on their dumb statement, then they shouldn't make them. And yes, they are dumb statements. So I guess you can see if you can get me banned too, because I'm not going to stop speaking the truth just because some people think the far right branch of the Republican party promotes brilliant policies and is unassailable. I suppose your slanders against Federal officers, liberals, Hillary and Democrats is permissible?

So if you're going, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I hope the Moderator does not submit to this blackmail.


Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Fred on March 31, 2017, 04:59:01 AM
OK. I'm asking for a moderator to decide if you are going to allow this Philly Dawg, and anyone else for that matter, to continue his unbridled slander, defamation, insults, trash talk, and ad hominem attacks against forum members?

If no moderator bothers to reply in the next few days I'll assume the answer is "Yes we support Philly Dawg". Gotta be sure I'm correct about the kind of forum this has become.

john

 Good Call! Don't worry John. This forum is on its death throes anyway, so they'll hardly be anyone here to miss you in a couple weeks.  Just a couple more nails and its done.   )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(

Trump Forever!
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Philly Dawg on March 31, 2017, 06:30:09 AM
OK. I'm asking for a moderator to decide if you are going to allow this Philly Dawg

This Phiily Dawg? Oh, "this Philly "Dawg!" I get it, you're calling me a dawg. Cute.  You wouldn't do the same thing your accusing me of, would you? No, because that would be hypocrisy.


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to continue his unbridled slander, defamation, insults, trash talk, and ad hominem attacks against forum members?

Trash talk? What about you calling federal officers just doing their jobs, a bunch terrorizing Cliven Bundy? Rules state, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And for all our sake, stop complaining like a 10 year old girl.


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Obviously the answer is "Yes we will", but before I leave I want to hear it from a moderator.

You want the moderator to lie and say you didn't back Cliven Bundy, didn't claim Diane was saying things just because she was black, that Trump is not a liar and h administration a mess. You haven't shown one thing where I have violated the rules. Anything I've said about you I've provided the link to show you actually said those things and did those things. Is that against rules? If you don't like it, don't say and do those things. And I won't be directing people to read where you did.


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I don't abide disgusting and vile people

You accuse me, then show yourself calling me names. I'll just say (since I'm not a big baby), if you don't abide discusting and vile people, how are you supportingTrump?  :thinker:


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- yes, these hate-filled demagogues and smear merchants are everywhere, they are unreasoning beasts

This Beast is not going to stop calling you out on your anti-government ramblings. And if I'm banned, I'm, banned.


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If no moderator bothers to reply in the next few days I'll assume the answer is "Yes we support Philly Dawg".

I don't think the admin moderator or Tony Warren support anyone here, they allow the free discussion of topics for those who choose to participate. Your problem is you don't want anyone referencing your old posts where you make your radical views abundantly clear. You become enraged when I show people your posts about race and the Bundy gang. If that's against rules, that's news to me.


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john

Either way, Bye!
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: John on April 01, 2017, 01:29:37 AM
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This forum is on its death throes anyway, so they'll hardly be anyone here to miss you in a couple weeks.

Fred, it's not a popularity contest. I don't care about me ... don't care being called names by haters, don't care what you or others here think one way or the other, don't care being slandered by a jerk on the forums. What I do care is what it says about this Christian forum, its moderators and its owner - and the expected lifespan of this site.

 I care about the truth. Whether it is Bible truth, political truth, or historical truth ... truth is truth! When people lie and defame or trample Scripture underfoot or spread hate - the transformation into something ugly and carnal advances like a rot.

When the Left attacks it isn't an intellectual argument. The Left deals in emotion - garbage trucks full of vitriol spewed forth toward anyone not like them. The label everyone "haters" and "racists" - that is their intellectual argument. The same goes for Bible discussion - it slides into the abyss of personal feelings and emotions.

Democrats (the neo-Marxist/Socialist Party) go marching forth without honor, without honesty, and attack and lie - it is by this assault that they have driven most reasonable (and informed) people from their base. Yes, they have the Black Lives Matter who want dead white cops, the radical greenies that deny real science, and a mixed bag of anarchists, dead-beats, America-haters, Marxists, felons, welfare recipients and the covetous who want their Socialist overlords to transfer the earned wealth of others into their greedy hands. The destruction of the people only happened after the Church itself was overthrown.

The Decline of Christianity began in the Church when the Left got a foothold, immediately they denied the authority of Scripture. Soon they had corrupted the seminaries. Then they attacked the family unit - turning children away from their parents to love and subservience to the State. They attacked marriage. They attacked man-woman relationships, and they sold sexual promiscuity and abortion. Those Church leaders of old never took action to rid their institution of these serpents, these wolves - and before they could recognize the threat and mobile, their institutions had been sold lock, stock, and barrel to the Devil. And they were kicked out in favor of the new ruling class of infidels.

The Left is sly, unwavering, committed, unyielding ... and always dogmatically accusing Republicans, Conservatives, and Christians (their main focus of hate) of anything that they think might stick. They blame their failures on their most hated foes - they deal in fear and  race mongering. They pit the poor against the rich, black against white, male against female, the citizen against the illegal invader. They tear down the family and then they tear down marriage. They destroy genders, they punish boys for not behaving like girls, they teach people to fear real men. Then they destroy even the idea of male and female. Gender becomes meaningless, marriage is meaningless, father and motherhood is meaningless, a baby in the womb is meaningless, right and wrong is meaningless, the Bible is meaningless, Truth is meaningless ... and they believe from the ashes of the death of all this, out of their depraved hate-filled minds will come the Utopian world of peace and tranquility.

So here we have it. The Left never backs down. They never apologize. They never acknowledge wrong. They know no shame. They cannot blush. They never give up, they never learn ... always driving relentlessly forward, with hatred of God propelling them to madness.

Yet, in spite of this extensional threat, this forum sits here like a gazelle grazing on the open prairie. Bit by bit the predators surround and infiltrate. They tear at this forum and work evil (which they think good). As the Churches fell, so too in like manner goes all Christian forums eventually, some without a struggle (most now just argue opinions between themselves or quote dead scholars - no reference to ultimate truth is used). Eventually, the sleepy excuse-making moderators dilly-dally, fold-the-hands, wink at sin, and allow the forum frog to boil - when the transformation is complete they are just like every other so-called Christian forum - lost in carnality. The game was lost before they even noticed they were under attack.

I attended a faithful church in Texas years back - solid congregation of mature Christians. The pastor was the weak link ... liked the idea of Pentecostalism (urging from his wife). In less than a year most of the long-standing members had left (leaving a vacancy) as young tongue-speakers moved in, to the praise of the pastor. It went from solid Reformed to false-gospel Satan-worshipers in just a matter of months.

If the Moderators on this forum think they are immune from having this forum overthrown, they are sadly mistaken. It's underway, the barbarians are at the gate (actually sitting happily inside the courtyard).

john
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Gerry on April 01, 2017, 05:04:15 PM
Then why are you supporting the Radical, tax evading racist Cliven Bundy? Why are you making excuses for the racist rants of Reformed authors like R.L. Dabney on this forum? That's the mystery for some here.

I know Bundy is a racist, but how is Dabney a racist. I've never heard that before.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reggie Matthews on April 02, 2017, 12:52:53 AM
>>>
What does the loosing of Satan really look like?
<<<

Luke 6:4445
  • "For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
  • A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

Satan is a spirit, and he works within mankind. Thus we will recognize this spirit the same way we recognize those with the Spirit of God. By their fruits. Does the Spirit of God blasphemy, does it defer from authority of the word, or does it condemn truth or call it evil?

1st John 4:1
  • "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

 )GoodPopst(
Good question and good answer. You think that is probably why you say not many will see the loosing of Satan, because they aren't prepared to try the spirits. So many Christians decide what is truth based on church affiliation, their friendships, agreement with their own views, and even political parties. I agree that we are to look at the bible for truth because that's the only way to see if their words agree with God's word. If it does, then it's truth. Why is that so difficult? It doesn't matter that they're Baptist or Presbyterian, Southerner or Northerner, Black or White. Truth is truth.

Lu 9:49-50
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Christ is saying, if this other group is doing miracles in "His name," they are not to be condemned or forbidden, because if they are doing such miracles in Christ's name, then obviously they are not against Him, they are for him. Also there is no mention of these being false miracles, and Christ would have certainly reprimanded them if they were. We know that no one can do real miracles in Christ's name except they are sent of Christ. So this other group was part of God's children. Because miracles represent salvation. I know Christians who only accept you as a Christian if you are part of their group. That is not right. We have to try the spirits, and not by their church affiliation, by their fruits. Do they speak the truth, even if we don't like it, or do they take offense at the truth.

Re 20:7-8
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Tony is on target about knowing what the loosing of Satan looks lie? It looks like a lie being told in the name of Christ. It looks like ministers of Satan appearing as ministers of light. It looks like Christians taking their eyes off Christ and placing them on themselves. It looks like love growing cold. This is the real evidence of Satan being loosed and a great decline in the Church.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on April 02, 2017, 03:13:41 AM
Tony is on target about knowing what the loosing of Satan looks lie? It looks like lies in the name of Christ. It looks like ministers of Satan appearing as ministers of light. It looks like Christians taking their eyes off Christ and placing them on themselves. It looks like love growing cold. The real evidence of a great decline in the Church.

Yes, in the church, not in the political arena, not in denominations, not the Freedom Caucus, not in Cliven Bundy or government agents gone wild, it's the liberals in the church! It's amazing that we have a house full of termites eating away the foundation right in the church, and we're so overly confused about God's sovereignty that we forget our own house and run to fix the world by attacking the ants in the house of our enemies.

  ...it's a allegory :)
 
 Mr 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

The key word here is unfruitful. Christians today are so concerned with the things that pertain to this life (the cares of this world) that they have forgotten their first love. It's so frustrating to see.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Philly Dawg on April 02, 2017, 05:12:37 AM
Then why are you supporting the Radical, tax evading racist Cliven Bundy? Why are you making excuses for the racist rants of Reformed authors like R.L. Dabney on this forum? That's the mystery for some here.

I know Bundy is a racist, but how is Dabney a racist. I've never heard that before.

I assume from your question that you know who Dabney is, but for those who don't know, Robert Lewis (R.L.) Dabney was Stonewall Jackson’s chief of staff and chaplain during the Civil War, a controversial Christian author of the 1800's who much of the Reformed community have latched onto and who's views are quite racist. But that's not the problem. Lots of people were racist in those days, that didn't mean they weren't saved. The real problem is "some" christians today want to put forth an argument that he wasn't racist (like John did about Bundy in that thread I bumped), but was just misunderstood because he used unfortunate wording. ::)

That's ridiculous and that is the real problem. The failure of many conservative Christians to recognize racism because I believe they themselves are closet racists. The minute you use the word racism they fly into a tizzy about liberals destroying the nation and other rants that have no bearing on what you were discussing. My position is that there is no need to white wash the fact that R.L. Dabney was a racist (Martin Luther was antisemitic) because none of us are perfect in our thinking. But their position is that he wasn't racist at all, it's just that we (or anyone who actually looks at the facts) are "liberals" who throw that term around without any basis. Then they redefine the word racism so that it's nearly impossible for anyone to be a racist. But let me get back to Dabney. After the civil war, he wrote one of the most racist books ever written (A Defense of Virginia), which some Puritan and Reformed Christians choose to either ignore or deny it is "really" racist. He was against the education of Black (Negro) people and said those who attempt to do this are “mischievous,” “tyrannical,” “useless,” “impracticable,” and “dishonest.” He considered black people to be a “morally inferior race,” a “sordid, alien taint” marked by “lying, theft, drunkenness, laziness, and waste.” He considered owning slaves to be very Christian and ”the righteous, the best, yea, the only tolerable relation” between black people and white people.  Here are just some choice things that Dabney wrote:

It is well known, that, as a general rule, [Negroes] are a graceless, vagabondish set, and contribute very little to the support of the State by which they are protected. They are not citizens, never can become citizens, and wherever found in large numbers they are an expense and a source of trouble…

If indeed they can mix the blood of the heroes of Manassas with this vile stream from the fens of Africa, then they will never again have occasion to tremble before the righteous resistance of Virginia freemen; but will have a race supple and vile enough to fill that position of political subjugation, which they desire to fix on the South.

He also condemned what he called the abhorrent amalgamation of white children with black children and argued (like Cliven Bundy) that it was better for blacks to be enslaved than not since it was better for their minds and their health. He spent a lot of his time in efforts trying to restrict black membership from the Southern Presbyterian Church.

Shall I go on or are you convinced? Because there are some Christians (who shall remain nameless of course) that are convinced that men like R.L. Dabney and Cliven Bundy are getting a bad rap because those of us who actually face facts are liberals out to destroy the church. In other words, I believe these people have lost the ability to think clearly. Like those cultists who think Obama wire tapped Trump Towers, or Hillary is the Devil's spawn or that Trump will actually make America great again. There's no accounting for the delusions of man except his desperately wicked heart.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dan on April 02, 2017, 09:08:49 AM
Yes, in the church, not in the political arena, not in denominations, not the Freedom Caucus, not in Cliven Bundy or government agents gone wild, it's the liberals in the church!

Reformer, Liberals are everywhere, not just in the church. If you allow them to prosper in the world, then they will for sure come into the church. You have to stamp them out wherever you find them. You forget, we still have to live in this world.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on April 02, 2017, 11:04:33 AM

Show me where scripture says we are to go forth into the world and stamp out liberals? I never read that. It doesn't say that, right? That's man in his own hubris and arrogance talking, not God. We are not tasked to do such things by Christ. Christians are always adding duties to God's word that he doesn't assent to.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on April 02, 2017, 05:48:52 PM
>>>
Yes, in the church, not in the political arena, not in denominations, not the Freedom Caucus, not in Cliven Bundy or government agents gone wild, it's the liberals in the church!

Reformer, Liberals are everywhere, not just in the church. If you allow them to prosper in the world, then they will for sure come into the church.
<<<

We don't "allow" the rebellious to prosper in the world, they prosper because the world is by nature sinful and rebellious and no Christian is ever going to change that.  It is the job of the Christian to bring the good news of deliverance from sin to the world, it has never been and is not our Job to keep the world from sinning (as if that were even possible). Once we really understand that this edict is not just lip service, we will understand why God declares that we as the church are aliens, non-citizens, strangers and pilgrims in this sinful nation and world. In Christ Jesus, the Christian church is a unique nation and light to the world, separated and distinctive "from" the world. Sometimes it seems that Christians think that we were commissioned to attempt to turn the governments of the world into a light. But that is not the case, there is a difference His nation and this temporal nation. In truth, we don't "allow" the world to be liberal, or indeed to be anything, the world is diametrically opposed to doing the good thing by nature. No state, nation, kingdom or world was ever righteous, nor can be. It is the church that we were commanded of God not to allow the wicked to prosper in--and we have failed miserably in that task by taking our eyes off Christ and the actual mission that He gave us. Clearly, Our job is not to correct the world governments or to make our governments righteous, but to go to the world with the gospel that the world might have REAL hope rather than pie-in-the-sky. Our mission statement, recorded throughout Scripture is quite clear.

Mark 16:15

The great commission is to preach the gospel to the world, not to remove sinful men from the world's governments. God never gives us a labor to do that is in vain. Moreover, liberals don't come into the church because nations and governments are sinful or unfair, or because some principality has an unrighteous king, or because there are so many of them that are in office, they come into the church because they are invited, they are welcomed, they are desired by those unfaithful already within the church. They come into the church because pastors allow them in. Anything outside of the church is by nature the child of the Devil, and so logically speaking the only way to make the world better is to make the church better. It's a numbers game. i.e., more church that is in the world means more light and less darkness--that's how it works. You can't change the world through politics (that's a liberal philosophy), you can only bring the light to the world and sovereign God will do as He sees fit--which is not to bring about a golden age of righteous kingdoms on earth. That is a pipe dream, a forever elusive, unattainable hope.


Quote
>>>
You have to stamp them out wherever you find them.
<<<

With all due respect, that's also pipe dream. You can't stamp out liberals (whatever that means to whomever) in the world, anymore than you can stamp out sin in the world. Neither is that the work that Christ has assigned to the "faithful" Christian, though I will grant you many seem to not only suppose that it is, but will fight to the death to support it. Actually, I really don't think that most professing Christians today even know what their job "as Christians" actually is. It's not to stamp out sin in their nation (the epitome of futility), but to call the elect with the good news of deliverance from sin.

Matthew 24:14

W preach the gospel as a witness to the people of the world, not of righteous government in the world, but of the righteous government of Christ. Our government is upon His shoulders, not national government upon ours. Did you ever hear Christ or the Apostles preaching to the world how Christians should make the governments thereof righteous? Not once, imagined or otherwise. On the contrary, they preached on keeping the church righteous by obedience, which today has fallen upon deaf ears. You say we have to stamp liberals out, and that's the typical mind set and response of the world to an enemy. To strike back at them, an eye for an eye. But it's not the Christian way. We can respond to our enemies with hate or we can respond as Christ and Stephen did (Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60) in asking God to bless and forgive them. Yes, that's unorthodox to the prideful, but that is the Spirit of Christ. Christians today want to fight the governments and strike a blow for the cause of Christ, which is not what Christ taught. Our swords are not carnal, but the spiritual sword of the word of God. Our mission is not to save the world from itself, but to save the elect from the world. With charity, agape love, not with empty boasts of earthly reconstruction, disdain or delusions of grandeur, but with spiritual reconstruction of the elect.

Matthew 5:43-44

Our enemies are to be conquered by Christ's love in our desiring for them the same blessings we have freely received. We fight back by the gospel and by the example that we show them in our lives. We feed them in witnessing to them, and if they ultimately reject us, that word will become as fire from our mouths to condemn them at the last day.

Roans 12:20-21

If we are truly in Christ, we will never be overcome by evil, and we will never overcome evil in the world by a vain attempt to stamp it out. We overcome evil by the goodness of Christ seen in us. The fact is, governments rule by divine decree and all the wicked are our enemy in need. It is "our job" to supply those needs through the preaching of Christ. This is the essence of the doctrine of loving your enemy. This is the same general message that Christ taught in Matthew 5:44. Our jobs are not to stamp them out, but rather to stamp out our own fear of them, stamp out our resentments and stamp out our anger. If we are so determined to stamp out sin in governments, then we should start in our own lives, and then in our own house. Because that is where the decline of the church starts.


Quote
>>>
You forget, we still have to live in this world.
<<<

Just because we live in this world doesn't mean that we have to become like this world, ranting and raving about temporal things that are merely fuel for the fire. Perhaps Christians forget that Christ said that we are not of this world because he has chosen us out of the world? Don't fear governments or rulers, fear God. Don't fight the power, fight the good fight. Represent yourself with your vote, and let sovereign God do the rest.

1st Peter 2:11-15

Here we see God painting this portrait for us that we may understand the temporary nature of our existence and dwelling upon this earth. We are not at home here, though you wouldn't know that by the actions of today's professing Christians. We are as foreigners in a strange land, as pilgrims just passing through. They don't seem to really understand what that means. We are not as so many who fight and rant and demand citizenship and rights "as if" this was their ultimate home to fight for and protect. Be aware that if your mind set is wrong, then your thinking will be wrong, and if your assumptions are wrong, your conclusions will be wrong, and if your labors are wrong, then your fruit will be wrong. Yes, we still have to live in this world, but not like this world in clinging to this temporal existence as if it is our home that we must fight to make righteous.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Stan Pat on April 02, 2017, 07:59:58 PM
 )GoodPopst( Tony, I know you are busy, but you should post more often.   )God-Bless-You(
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Fred on April 02, 2017, 08:47:17 PM

Not if he's going to write this liberal philosophy. Our founding fathers created this country by rebelling against the government of England, and I suppose they weren't doing the Christian ting? That's nonsense! Sometimes you have to fight the government in order to get your God given rights. It's his kind of thinking that has made this country go down hill.

"Give me liberty, or give me death!" by Patrick Henry

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on April 03, 2017, 02:34:33 AM
Not if he's going to write this liberal philosophy.

Wow, you guys throw that word liberal around like it was confetti. According to your definition it seems the only ones who are not labeled liberals here are those who give a pass to racism, always agree with Republicans, moan about taxes, resent their rulers, and consent to your obviously anti government aggressive posture. That's fine with me because Christ never supported any of those things either. Under your criteria, Christ was the biggest liberal of all time. Hallelujah! So label us what you want because labels don't define who or what Tony, Me or anyone else is, God does.

Tony, as usual your post hit the mark squarely in the bulls eye. Who is President I don't let define my character,  what I do, who I am, or what is my job. My grandmother use to tell me the story of the old woman who had a Virginia ham under her arms and went around crying because she had no bread. She was talking about me, but I got the picture and I was a child. Christians today don't get the picture. They are so disgruntled about the least little thing and ungrateful for the blessed opportunity they have actually do the Lord's work. They'd rather complain about politics, moan about money and cry about someone else getting more than they deserve. Aren't we getting more than we deserve from Christ? People have lost perspective because they are so self absorbed.

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Our founding fathers created this country by rebelling against the government of England, and I suppose they weren't doing the Christian ting?

No, they weren't. I know that because the Bible says so. They weren't doing the Christian thing when they robbed the American Indians of their land or enslaved minorities either. But God used their collective sins to build this nation. The Bible is full of Godly people who did things that were not Godly. That's no measure of what was and was not the wrong things for them to do. Solomon served false gods. Do I look at that history and use it as a example of a Christian thing because a Christian did it? That would be foolish.


Quote
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" by Patrick Henry

It would have been better if he had sought true liberty in the death of Christ, rather than in rebellion. The topic of this thread is the decline of the church. Let's try and at least keep it around that topic. Enough of this political agenda that some of you have.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Shirley on April 04, 2017, 04:23:49 AM
Quote
"Give me liberty, or give me death!" by Patrick Henry

It would have been better if he had sought true liberty in the death of Christ, rather than in rebellion. The topic of this thread is the decline of the church. Let's try and at least keep it around that topic. Enough of this political agenda that some of you have.

True liberty in the death of Christ. Wow, couldn't have said it better. I'm so sick of this political scene.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Shirley on April 04, 2017, 04:26:08 AM

PS. some people are actually touching people's lives by the gospel rather than worshiping at the political altar of Trump or Hillary.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210351325634137&set=a.1780980678942.98538.1072170025&type=3&theater
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Wanda on April 04, 2017, 11:27:11 AM

Good stuff. And the reason the church is declining is that there is so much less of "this" gospel message by Christians and so much more of Christian wasting their time on politics. I couldn't agree more with Tony and Reformer and less with Phillydawg and John. The church has a very specific job and it is not politics.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on April 04, 2017, 12:33:01 PM
Are you implying that the election of a righteous man like Trump hasn't brought the gospel of Christ to the world?  )Fighting(

  Just Kidding! ;)

Maybe I do spend to much time on politics and not enough on the gospel. That's something I certainly need to consider.  I will say I agree 100 percent with you and with the others on the reason for the decline of the church. The ministers, those whom God called the messengers of the church, have forsaken their duty as messenger of his word and allowed the corruption of Christ's teachings. That in turn allows those in the church to become unfaithful, without a pastor to reel them in. There's no question about that.


Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Gerry on April 05, 2017, 09:04:04 PM
Are you implying that the election of a righteous man like Trump hasn't brought the gospel of Christ to the world?  :Fighting:

  Just Kidding! ;)



   )laugh(   )laugh(   )laugh(
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Gerry on April 05, 2017, 09:15:28 PM


I assume from your question that you know who Dabney is, but for those who don't know, Robert Lewis (R.L.) Dabney was Stonewall Jackson’s chief of staff and chaplain during the Civil War, a controversial Christian author of the 1800's who much of the Reformed community have latched onto and who's views are quite racist. But that's not the problem. Lots of people were racist in those days, that didn't mean they weren't saved. The real problem is "some" christians today want to put forth an argument that he wasn't racist (like John did about Bundy in that thread I bumped), but was just misunderstood because he used unfortunate wording. ::)

That's ridiculous and that is the real problem. The failure of many conservative Christians to recognize racism because I believe they themselves are closet racists. The minute you use the word racism they fly into a tizzy about liberals destroying the nation and other rants that have no bearing on what you were discussing. My position is that there is no need to white wash the fact that R.L. Dabney was a racist (Martin Luther was antisemitic) because none of us are perfect in our thinking. But their position is that he wasn't racist at all, it's just that we (or anyone who actually looks at the facts) are "liberals" who throw that term around without any basis. Then they redefine the word racism so that it's nearly impossible for anyone to be a racist.

Ok, I get your point Philly Dawg. I really didn't know that about Dabney and it's a eye opener for me.   The way some of his writings are you would think he was more educated, but I guess this proves the old adage, you can't judge a book by its cover. What did Christ say? It's what's inside that matters.  Obviously he was a really bitter and ugly man inside. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer my question because I had not heard any of this before. Now I understand where you are coming from since I have heard many people justify their racism in life also. Just not really in a Christian setting or forum. The South lives I guess.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Nina on April 07, 2017, 03:45:10 AM

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/the-decline-of-christianity-in-america

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Nina on April 07, 2017, 07:01:39 PM

I googled is Chistianity declining and came up with this article also.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/12/christianity-faces-sharp-decline-as-americans-are-becoming-even-less-affiliated-with-religion/?utm_term=.cbd20552bb56
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: George on April 08, 2017, 03:43:33 AM
Don't believe that. That's the Washington Post liberal media attempting to make you believe the church is declining. The church is not declining, and the proof is that we all got together and played a major role in electing Trump President. Without us, he would have lost. That's something we all as Christians should be proud of. It's only flower children like Tony Warren, Erik, Reformer and the like who are trying to make people swallow liberal ideas and believe that the church is in trouble. The liberal left have an agenda and it is to remove Christian principles. I go to church every sunday and I am not alone.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on April 12, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
>>>
Don't believe that. That's the Washington Post liberal media attempting to make you believe the church is declining.
<<<

The belief that the church is declining is not "seen" through secular articles in the Washington post, but in the words f the Bible through spiritual eyes. It is seen through testing, through comparing Scripture with Scripture, through considering whether God's word agrees with man's word. The Lord exhorts us to prove all things and that includes the church that we have decided to belong to. For when we stand before God, we're not going to be able to excuse our abominations by saying our Catholic Priests deceived us, or our Reformed church tradition was wrong, or our evangelical leaders taught us false doctrines. We stand or fall on on what we believe, as compared with what is in the Holy Bible, not as compared with what we read in the Post, Journal or Courier.

1st John 4:1

Meaning, no one is to blindly believe me, or you, or their church or Pastor. They are to try or test the spirits and see if they are in agreement with what the word of God says, versus their own personal opinions and  suppositions. Does the churches today still hold to sound doctrines once delivered to the saints and as prescribed in the word of God? That is the question. The question is not, do we believe what we read in a secular article.


Quote
>>>
 The church is not declining, and the proof is that we all got together and played a major role in electing Trump President. Without us, he would have lost. That's something we all as Christians should be proud of.  I go to church every sunday and I am not alone.
<<<

You may go to a church George, but is it the church of Christ? If you want to believe that the church is doing fine and there is no decline, of course that is your prerogative. But even Christ has warned us before against thinking that He is somewhere that He is not, because many false teachers and prophets will abound and will be out to deceive us.

Matthew 24:24-26

I expect people to tell me Christ is still over here and he's still over there in this or that church when He is not. Because that's what false Christians and false teachers do. They convince us that their church is a church of Christ, despite the fact that it is disobedient unto death. Christ warsn, "Believe It Not," or in other words, He knows there will be deceivers claiming Christ and we are not to believe it when told Christ is over there or over here. He is not a Christ that can be in collusion with the house of Dispensationalism, it is a fallen house with false teachers, it is a house spiritually as Babylon preaching all sorts of unbiblical theories and man made ideas. Foreign ideas such as your beliefs in unsubstantiated  fables about the nation of Israel, doctrines of free will, ideas of political grandeur brought about by the church. You may say "Peace, Peace" wall you want, but where is the peace? Is it hiding in such houses? Is it in the Desert, under the bed or hidden in a steeple in Arkansas? It's a desert or wilderness where "you claim" Christ is, but Christ is not there because He has no agreement as light with darkness? Can Christ and the man of sin rule in one house together? Is Christ Catholic, Protestant and Dispensationalist also? The Scriptures indicate no.
 

Quote
>>>
It's only flower children like Tony Warren, Erik, Reformer and the like who are trying to make people swallow liberal ideas and believe that the church is in trouble. The liberal left have an agenda and it is to remove Christian principles.
<<<

Actually, the Christian principles are already removed and candles already put out, but unfortunately there are a massive number of professing Christians who haven't yet figured that out. Yes, I'm sure you'd like God's people to say there is peace, when there is no peace, and to tell you tings that you want to hear about this nation, the church, the world and Israel, but the faithful witness gives a faithful testimony, not the one you desire.

Isaiah 30:9-12

Yes, I could prophesy deceits and tell you the church is as great as it ever was, I could tell you smooth things you could swallow without difficulty, I could tell you that we're on the verge of a great nation, but then I would be betraying the Lord. I will not turn aside out of the path or be a cause for the Holy One to cease from before us. The chuirch is declining and has become spiritually as Sodom and Egypt.

George, if flower children means children who worship the Rose of of Sharon, and the Lily of the valleys, we'll be happy to take that and say "Thank You!"  Better that than what so many worship in the church today, which is mainly themselves, assuring that their own will, rather tan God's, be done in earth. The sinful man, or the man of sin, is already seated in the once Holy Temple and ruling as if he were God. Man on his own throne worships he knows not what, but we worship God. If that's what you call liberal, fine. I'm comfortable with God defining who I am and who I serve, rather than man.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2017, 08:31:32 AM
The belief that the church is declining is not "seen" through secular articles in the Washington post, but in the words f the Bible through spiritual eyes. It is seen through testing, through comparing Scripture with Scripture, through considering whether God's word agrees with man's word.

There's more to life than quoting scripture Tony. Christianity isn't defined by how many people quote scripture, but by how many have the spirit to love Israel and serve God. Not by how many say "thus saith the Lord". You need to work on your preaching skills.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on May 17, 2017, 07:49:39 PM
There's more to life than quoting scripture Tony.

Like what? Privately interpreting it? Twisting it? Ignoring it? Taking away from it? Adding to it? What is greater than faithfully witnessing to the unadulterated word of God? Tell me, what is better than saying thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has said?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Herman Stowe on May 18, 2017, 11:17:13 AM
There's more to life than quoting scripture Tony.

Like what? Privately interpreting it? Twisting it? Ignoring it? Taking away from it? Adding to it? What is greater than faithfully witnessing to the unadulterated word of God? Tell me, what is better than saying thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has said?

 )ditto( Keep Quoting Scripture, thus saith the Lord is NOT something that we should neglect!
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on May 19, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
>>>
There's more to life than quoting scripture Tony.
<<<

There sure is, like actually hearing the Scriptures quoted, for instance.

Matthew 7:22-25


Quote
>>>
Christianity isn't defined by how many people quote scripture, but by how many have the spirit to love Israel and serve God.
<<<

Quoting Scripture is called being a witness to the testimony of God, while quoting John Walvoord is called being a witness to the testimony of Mr. Walvoord. I know which one is God honoring, do you?

2nd Corinthians 1:12


Quote
>>>
 Not by how many say "thus saith the Lord".
<<<

How many is decidedly "Not Enough" as far as I'm concerned. Would we did have more saying "Thus saith the Lord," instead of "This is what I think is best."

Psalms 106:3

Clearly, it is not enough to praise God with the mouth, giving lip service to love while rejectiung His precepts due to a hard heart.

Quote
>>>
You need to work on your preaching skills.
<<<

 I won't argue that, perhaps I do.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: ZeroCool on June 12, 2017, 12:09:19 AM
>>>
There's more to life than quoting scripture Tony.
<<<

There sure is, like actually hearing the Scriptures quoted, for instance.



I had to laugh when I read that, because there are so many times in my witnessing that what I'm saying actually goes right over the head of who I am saying it to. They hear it on a physical ear level, but they just don't hear it. So even though it says exactkly what I had said, they still say I'm wrong. It's unexplainable when they are supposed to be Christians and accepting of God's word.

  Thanks so much for your insights. Do you suppose they'll come a time when there aren't anymore Christians?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2017, 02:08:00 AM
  Thanks so much for your insights. Do you suppose they'll come a time when there aren't anymore Christians?


Never! They'll never come a time when there are no more Christians. The church will continue right up until the day of the rapture when they will be taken home. The church is not in as much decline as some would he you believe.

http://www1.cbn.com/how-christianity-growing-around-world


Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: aquatic on June 12, 2017, 04:50:58 AM
There will be Christians until the coming of Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:(14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Dana Pescator on June 12, 2017, 01:55:45 PM

The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on June 12, 2017, 05:31:50 PM
The church is not in as much decline as some would he you believe.
http://www1.cbn.com/how-christianity-growing-around-world

They're vastly overestimating and including false churches. In 2007, largely half of all Protestants (51%) identified as evangelical, whereas today, roughly 65 percent of all Protestants identify as evangelicals. That doesn't mean the church is growing, that means the church is declining and falling away. My teacher use to say, figures lie and liars figure, and he was right.

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on June 15, 2017, 07:40:16 AM
>>>
I had to laugh when I read that, because there are so many times in my witnessing that what I'm saying actually goes right over the head of who I am saying it to. They hear it on a physical ear level, but they just don't hear it.
<<<

This is typical of Christians who are snared in false gospels or brainwashed by some particular teacher's doctrine. In simple terms, they just don't want to hear the truth, and so any Scripture that you provide will become just words to them. They don't actually put it together that this is God talking and not you giving an opinion. And that is how they justify themselves not accepting it. They'll even say, "that's your opinion," when you've just repeated word for word what is written. Ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see is nothing new among God's people. It's not a new phenomenon. You can witness to them, you can warn them, you can quote God's word to them and they will not "really" hear it. Apparently they are of the same generation that has done this for ages.

Jeremiah 6:10

It's not in our power to make anyone open their ears and receive God's word. That ability to actually hear is through God's power alone, our work is merely to witness to them. If they will hear, give glory to God, but if not, God's will be done.


Quote
>>>
Thanks so much for your insights. Do you suppose they'll come a time when there aren't anymore Christians?
<<<

A time where there aren't anymore Christians on earth? No, there will always be Christians on this earth right up until the day of the Lord's second coming when they meet Him in the air. Will there come a time when there are no more "faithful" Christians in the church? I do believe so, based on what I read in Scripture. There will be lots of churches, but not Christ centered or Christ filled churches. There will be a remnant of faithful people outside of the local congregations, but apostasy will fill the corporate church where the individual faithful saints will have to come out from among them because of the abominations therein. Just as the remnant of Israel (The Apostles Paul, Peter, John, Etc.) had to come out from among the synagogues and assemble elsewhere. Their trust was not in their traditional corporate congregations, they put their trust in the Lord and came out from among them. When God's faithful people see abominations, they are to flee to the mountain retreat, which is the spiritual Kingdom refuge or sanctuary of the Lord. It is the only safety from the desolations that the abominations have brought.

The point is, we are not married to a corporate church as some suppose, we are the church, the bride, married to Christ. There is a difference. When the corporate congregation falls, we better not be within it as that makes us partaker with her in her sins.

Psalms 11:1-2

Indeed, it is not the physical mountains where we will find safety, but the ground of God's supreme kingdom, the only mountain where we are assured of a watchful care over His people. As the old hymn said, "flee as a bird to your mountain, thou who art weary of sin." When the wicked in their abominations bend their bows and ready their arrow upon the string, that they may secretly shoot at the upright in heart, this is the only refuge from their judgment of desolation. How say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain? Because there is no other safe haven than the Lord's Holy Mountain. In truth, Oh Lord, Thou art my hiding place, when abomination stands in the holy place.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on June 15, 2017, 08:05:12 AM
>>>
The church is not in as much decline as some would he you believe.
<<<

No one has to have anyone believe a thing, all one has to do is open their eyes and open their ears and see and hear for themselves the state of the church. Does it reveal that the church is growing better than ever, or does it reveal that the church is growing worse and worse as every year passes. Has it become more faithful to the word of God, or has it become less faithful? Has Ministers continued to preach the unadulterated word of God, or have they fallen away from the precepts that Christ has established to disobedience and rationalization? Is the first work evangelism, or is it self-gratification, agenda, possessions and pride. Is our first love the affairs of the kingdom, or the affairs of state. Is the fruit of the church obedience in keeping (guarding from loss) the word of God, or is it the spirit of disobedience in rationalizing it away. There is all types of decline, and all types of growth. Not all who say "Lord, Lord," are true Christians, as Christ said that it is only those who hear what He commands and does it are truly saved. No one wants to hear that every professed Christian is not a Christian, but that is a fact that Christ Himself declared.

Luke 6:44-46

Many will call Christ Lord and by this profession acknowledge His rule and authority, but they will not obey His commands, and are thus (by His own admission) in reality, none of His. It doesn't matter that they take the moniker of Christian, by their fruits or works you shall know the are or are not. Likewise, by the decline of good fruits or works in the church, the decline is obvious. Which is why Christ says, by their fruits you shall know them. It's not said in vain, but that you might know ho you are assembling with.


Quote
>>>
http://www1.cbn.com/how-christianity-growing-around-world
<<<

These estimates of Christians (360+ million in Africa, etc.,) are false and meaningless estimates--meaning they include anyone who takes the moniker Christian, whether they actually believe or not. By that criteria, national Israel is still God's chosen people, the Roman catholic church is God blessed and America is a Christian nation (about 71 percent of American adults identifying as Christians), none of which is true. Tue Christianity is a remnant, a small number of the whole. This lie is all a facade, a principle "front" or outward appearance that is maintained to conceal the truth of a desolate reality.

Revelation 17:4

Like Babylon, the unfaithful church has a facade, an outward appearance of precious jewels and a treasurable appearance of righteousness, but within her (which is all that counts) is uncleaness, abominations and rebellion. She is not the faithful city anymore, but a people that are not the holy city anymore. These people who are looking to put a good face on a bad situation always go to other third world countries (Africa, South America, etc.) to declare that Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds, because they know no one will buy the bill of goods they are selling about the church otherwise. Better to go where you can't see with your own eyes the degradation, unfaithfulness and spiritual fornication in far off places. The decline of Christianity is real, the tales of its exponential growth is not. The lie is just another sign of the times.

Matthew 24:23-24

Don't believe it! Christ is not declining in England and the U.S. and growing in Africa and South America, the church grows or declines together. And the closer we are to the coming of Christ, the more the church universal will decline. And the more the false teachers will say, Peace, Peace, when there is no Peace.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on June 15, 2017, 09:00:15 AM
>>>
The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?
<<<

 )Goodpoint(   )Bible-Red(  )iagree(


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: ZeroCool on June 16, 2017, 09:15:49 AM

The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?

So why "is" Christianity declining?

Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: R. Anspach on June 17, 2017, 11:27:47 AM

The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?

So why "is" Christianity declining?

Parents have lost that sense of responsibility.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

There is no training of children to continue the ways of the fathers, we have fallen into the trap of modern child rearing, which is threefold. Number one, spare the rod, and number two, spoil the child, and number three, don't train a child because that's for dogs. The children have no interest in Christianity because the parents didn't instill any respect for it, responsibility, their elders or the Bible.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: HollyLeigh on June 19, 2017, 10:31:05 AM
 :amen:
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Chloe on June 19, 2017, 04:52:54 PM

The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?

So why "is" Christianity declining?

Parents have lost that sense of responsibility.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

There is no training of children to continue the ways of the fathers, we have fallen into the trap of modern child rearing, which is threefold. Number one, spare the rod, and number two, spoil the child, and number three, don't train a child because that's for dogs. The children have no interest in Christianity because the parents didn't instill any respect for it, responsibility, their elders or the Bible.

 )Goodpoint( People ask me, what's wrong with the children of today, and my reply is always, "Parents!"  That scripture you quoted is true, but you always hear Christians respond to it as if it won't work. That's the problem. Christians don't believe God's word anymore. They always respond, that's not always true. Well of course it's not always true, it's a general principle that rather than obey, they listen to the advice of talk show hosts.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Reformer on June 22, 2017, 01:10:42 AM
:Goodpoint: People ask me, what's wrong with the children of today, and my reply is always, "Parents!"  That scripture you quoted is true, but you always hear Christians respond to it as if it won't work. That's the problem.

That is the problem. Modern Parenting is parenting in unbelief. What the bible says is a footnote or an afterthought. Their real teachers are the liberal institutions, social workers and politicians. They are always looking for a better way, and there is no better way. You train up a child in the ways of the Lord, not in the ways of your secular neighbors. Which leads me to this. Christianity declines because of Christians losing their way, straying from the paths, the mind that says of God's ways, it won't work. You are absolutely right Chloe, that is the problem. Christians in unbelief.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Joanne on March 20, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?

https://religionnews.com/2016/09/06/why-is-christianity-declining/

What do you think?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Jon Thomas on March 22, 2019, 08:01:30 AM

I think that church attendance decline is a generational problem because our era's parents have forsaken their God-given responsibility to train their children the same way that they were trained. They think they know better. We see this in how many are leaving the church because it was never impressed upon them the importance of the family that is the church. Today's children's ideas about right and wrong doesn't necessarily match up with the strict values of their parents because of social indoctrination. These children are taught by society instead of the church, and their heads are filled with a one-sided view of religion and claim that their parents had church attendance force fed to them. In reality, it was never force-fed to them. The importance of the church was taught them just as secular school teachers are teaching of evolution. That's how any training system works.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Biblical training was not being force-fed, it was being taught, which every child is in one way or another. Either by parents or by secular society. I say this because this modern generation is especially susceptible to a misunderstanding of, "You don’t have to go to church to be saved."  Yes, that statement was absolutely true. But no, that never meant that church is not necessary or that we shouldn't go to church.

Hebrews 10:25
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

The younger generation mistook that to mean they should become loners, monk-like, a recluse from the body and forsake assembling together, which the Bible doctrine of individual salvation never meant. As a result, we often can't go to church these days because so many are fallen that it would be against God's will to attend such places.

It's my view this is the main reason for the decline of Christianity. Once out of the church and among those of the world, the people took on the world's lifestyles, traits, appearance, attitudes, and their morals. In a sense, they were being taught by them and corrupted by them.

What the "we don't have to go to church" idea unintentionally did for this generation was to devalue the importance of the church being a family set apart from the world. These people have now become so unequally yoked with unbelievers that I think it would be near impossible to reclaim them as the family that the church was meant to be.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Forward on March 22, 2019, 08:44:44 AM

https://religionnews.com/2016/09/06/why-is-christianity-declining/

What do you think?

Quote
–Evangelism is dead. No one really knows how to “share the Christian faith” any more in a way that connects with people, and many Christians have stopped trying.

So that’s ten proposed reasons why Christianity is declining in the United States. I invite you to add your own reasons for this significant trend.

I consider the negative influence of TV and digital connectivity on society and side-effects caused by the state of the art social networking systems can also be included in detail. These systems have hijack virtualize Christianity and selling its carcass for profit.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on March 24, 2019, 03:12:37 PM
I consider the negative influence of TV and digital connectivity on society and side-effects caused by the state of the art social networking systems can also be included in detail. These systems have hijack virtualize Christianity and selling its carcass for profit.

Unquestionably TV and social media is a reflection of the imagery of the beast. Besides from the occasional place like this, or for dictionary work, I see no socially redeeming value to any of it. It's all a tool the Devil uses to push his riches at all costs agenda, liberal philosophies, evolution, atheism, hypocrisy, sexual immorality, work people up with hatred, justify bad behavior and lead them away from God.
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: David Knoles on March 24, 2019, 04:14:38 PM

Or perhaps Christianity isn't really in decline, it's just that the liberals are leaving because you don't like how Israel is being supported by Christians in greater numbers than ever before. You don't like how the church is standing up for family values and backing righteous candidates for political office. What is declining is Democrats, Amillennialism and abortions. Not Christianity. More fake News!
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Lieberman on March 26, 2019, 10:51:51 AM

Or perhaps Christianity isn't really in decline,

Only a blind man would say that. Have you joined aquatic's universe?
Title: Re: The Decline of Christianity
Post by: Tony Warren on March 29, 2019, 04:15:26 PM
The question shouldn't be if Christianity is declining, but why is Christianity declining?
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https://religionnews.com/2016/09/06/why-is-christianity-declining/

What do you think?
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I think apart from these "symptoms" of the decline, the main reason for the decline of Christianity was sorely neglected in this article. I see the culprit as the growing unfaithfulness of the church members and lack of correction of the Ministers, Overseers, and Pastors. This caused the falling away from traditional mainstays, safeguards and ultimately obedience. Unfaithfulness comes from a disintegration of morality by Christians who were getting too close to the world. The effect of the love of God growing cold, thus allowing for even more degeneration. A vicious cycle that was the beginning of the end. The faithful building of the church was once paramount, it was a demonstration of our agape love or charity toward the world where evangelism was actually believed to be the great commission. It was the work most important in the church. Where now you have neglect of this most important task, there is "consequentially" a selfishness and decline of those who were tasked. To make an analogy, it is akin to maintaining a building. Where there is a lack of upkeep, there is inevitably decay and declension of the building. In spiritual terms, that is what has happened to Christianity. A neglect of maintaining rules and laws in the house of God, which is the Christian steward's job to do.

2nd Kings 22:5

Likewise, if the Christian does not maintain or repair the breaches of God's house, the enemy will slip in and the end will result is the desolation of the house of God. The old adage applies, give an inch and they will take a yard. Christianity declined because its stewards compromised God's word in giving an inch, and consequently that became a foot, that became a yard, that became a mile and so on and so forth. That's how decline works. I believe "this" was the true start of the decline of Christianity.  Christians were so enamored with the world's ways they were not being vigilant.


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So let’s count both of those as reasons why some are disaffiliating. Here is my very tentative proposal for eight other reasons:

–Prosperity and affluence distract people from regular church attendance and reduce a strong sense of need to be in church, gradually eroding not just church attendance but Christian identity.
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It is true prosperity and affluence can distract people from regular church attendance as well as Christian duty, but that doesn't explain the total abandoning of traditional Christian love, virtiue, ethos, principles, morality, honesty, faith and practice. I'm not saying more money is not a factor, rather I'm saying the truth is much deeper than mere prosperity. Many faithful Christians of old were prosperous and they remained faithful. It is when Prosperity is mixed with lusts, envy, discontent, greed and decadence that people forget from whence they are fallen because they are blinded by the sparkle of the world. The Love of money is the root of all evil, not money.


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–The pre-modern claims of traditional Christian faith appear increasingly incredible to postmodern Americans. It has been a very long time since a majority of cultural elites found Christianity’s supernatural claims, for example, to be credible. These elites dominate our culture.
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I don't agree with this at all. Traditional Christian faith as always appeared incredible to Americans, and every other nation. Are we to think 40 days of rain and world-wide flooding, walking on water, turning water to wine, multiplying loaves, rivers of blood, etc., etc., wasn't too incredible to believe by past generations? People aren't any smarter today than they were 1000 years ago, they simply have more knowledge. Not more wisdom or intelligence, just more knowledge. I do not believe that it is a modern-day inability to believe in miracles and such that is why Christianity went into decline. Rather, I believe it was a modern-day lack of Christian training in the faith of the next generation that is the reason for the decline. A failure to communicate the faith of the fathers and mothers to the sons and daughters. Christians feeling that the old Biblical ways were too harsh, and therefore they were summarily rejected in favor of modern-day child rearing.


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–Hypocrisies and conflicts in church, when they (inevitably) erupt, don’t just drive people to other churches, as in the past, but sometimes take them out of Christianity altogether.
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Likwise as with riches, hypocrisy has always been in the visible church, and always will be. It is true that it is a bad witness to the church, but it has always been. If it drives anyone out of Christianity altogether, then they knew nothing about Christianity anyway and were already on their (1st Jon 2:19) way out. There is nothing today in hypocrisy that would lead anyone away from Christianity any more than it would have years ago. There is nothing new under the sun saith the preacher, and that includes hypocrisy. I believe growing hypocrisy is a "symptom" of decline, not a reason for it.


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–The fading of cultural Christianity means that fewer and fewer Americans feel any cultural or familial expectation to be in church or practice Christianity. “It was good enough for grandpa” just doesn’t cut it anymore.
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That's true, but it is because parents today don't instill in their children the cultural importance of being a Christian, the divine call for spiritual separation from unbelievers, and the "duty" to be part of the family of God, which the church represented. Instead, in the modern-day change of parenting, they told their children that they didn't have to go to church if you don't want to. This new type of parenting was nothing short of a neglect of Godly parenting. And I believe that it was the main reason for the decline of the Christian family and instilling in them the cultural importance, responsibility and duty of being part of a Christian family and community.


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–American Christianity is not producing many compelling leaders, and thus the average church (as well as the Church writ large) is not especially inspiring or visionary. Many ministers play it safe in order to keep their jobs, or are simply not that talented.
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Not only is Christianity not producing many compelling leaders, it's hardly producing any leaders at all. A lot of blind followers, and men and women who learn from other men and women, but very few leaders who preach the Bible alone. Ministers playing it safe is an understatement in this article. They most often preach "smooth things" or by what is popular or entertaining to most, not what is needful and justified and Holy.


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–The collapse of any protection of Sunday from recreation and work, together with the gig economy, means many people are working or otherwise engaged on Sunday.
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And it's a matter of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Did we succumb to prosperity and leave the church, or did we leave the church so we could be more prosperous? Was it that the lust for economic gain, prosperity and recreation come because of the disregard for God's word and the Sunday Sabbath? Yeah, I believe the chicken came first. In other words, there came a disregard for the Holiness of the Sunday sabbath and that produced the will to change times and laws that "held back" these ideas, thoughts and lusts. There were laws that restricted certain work and businesses on Sunsday. Moreover, what judicial laws didn't cover, morality did so that people (by moral law) didn't work or open stores on Sunday. The collapse of protections started within man with his falling away to disregard God's law of respecting the Sabbath. The church started looking at it as what they called legalism. Many people began working or otherwise engaged on Sunday, but was because of their own failing standards as they longed to be just like the world, rather than separate from it. No laws were made to circumvent the sabbath until enough people were OK with it. To put it another way, until the church didn't put up a big stink about it.  Like an old house that isn't kept in repair, it deteriorates because of the lack of maintenace for its continuing health and welfare.


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–It is harder for parents to pass the faith onto their children in a wired world in which parental influence is in decline.
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Again, a matter of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Is it that parents can't pass the faith on to their children because of a wired world in which parental influence is in decline, or is it that parents forsook their responsibility to train up their children with disciple, and "as a result" their influence on them has declined because the doctrines of faith were not sufficiently passed on to them? Today's children have been so undisciplined, spoiled and pampered that this outcome was inevitable. In general, their work ethic is pitiful and they are handed everything on a silver platter so that they naturally feel entitled. It is harder for parents to pass the faith on to their children "Specifically Because" they changed from the way their parents raised them to child rearing by the social workers and by secular humanism. God's instructions were "apparently" too harsh, and the results are what is to be expected when we think we are smarter than God.


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–Evangelism is dead. No one really knows how to “share the Christian faith” any more in a way that connects with people, and many Christians have stopped trying.
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Evangelism is not dead, it's simply the rarest of occupations. I don't think this is because no one has time, or because of TV, or social media, I believe there is little evangelization because of fear (of losing worldly friends) or because of the growing selfishness in the world today--and both are related. What is on TV and social media is a direct "result" of the decline of the church, not a reason for it. The lack of evangelism is because the charity or agape love where faithful Chrisrtians actually "cared" about the salvation of others, is missing. Sure, they still pay lip service to caring and evangelism, but in practice, they are too busy with the cares of this world to care about evangelism. I believe the world problem of a lack of morality stems from a church problem. For example, I'm old enough to remember when Television once had built in restraints, a moral code. Why? Because the churches who carried great weight demanded and received it. But as the church became more unfaithful by an influx of more liberal thinking ministers, and those of the church grew closer to those of the world. They began to take on their same hopes, dreams, and decadence so that they failed to stand fast and keep the traditional values, laws and moral compass. They let a little of this go, and a little of that, and soon there was declension. The church "failed" to be the Watchmen who were tasked of God to stand guard at the gates. They fell asleep at their posts and allowed enemies within the gates. The same as the declension in Israel produced the same results:

Isaiah 56:10-11

When those in God's lighthouse look not to being watchmen, but for their own pleasures and gain, then it is inevitable that darkness will result, and the light of the world declines. Thus evangelism is the last thing on their minds. Today evangelism comes after food, clothing, home, college, new car, vacations, savings, and about 50 other things. "Then and only then," maybe, they'll consider mentioning they are Christians or suggest that there is a Godly alternative lifestyle. But only if it doesn't embarrass them, or only if someone specifically asks.

As for Christians who have stopped trying, God has something to say about those who take what God has given them and hide it away that there is no gain from it.

Matthew 25:24-27

So I don't believe that "No one really knows how to share the Christian faith in a way that connects with people," I believe it is not expedient for them to do so because they fear rejection more than they fear God. Sure, many Christians have stopped trying, but it is because it's a "sacrifice" that many are not willing to make for Christ in this world. This cozy relationship of Christians with the world God equates to spiritual fornication or adultery.

James 4:4

It is this adulterous relationship of Christians with the world that stands in opposition with and makes Christians indisposed to doing of God's will.


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So that’s ten proposed reasons why Christianity is declining in the United States. I invite you to add your own reasons for this significant trend. In a later post I will reflect on what might be done to redress the problems the churches now face.
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I think that some of these are legitimate reasons, but the main reason that is not addressed here (and seldom is) is because of the growing unfaithfulness that occurred in the church. This unfaithfulness led to a corruption of doctrines, which leads to the corruption of the church, which inevitably leads to abominations, which leads to desolation or destruction. The "main" reason that Christianity is declining is because of those inside the church which have apostatized so that God is "giving them up" that they might be judged.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"