The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Melanie on December 15, 2015, 08:20:41 AM

Title: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Melanie on December 15, 2015, 08:20:41 AM

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church. I know that Christianity is changing, but isn't this way over the top? I talked with some Christians on a different forum and they have mixed feelings. Needless to say, I am shocked. It certainly doesn't promote the cause of Christ and I believe it sends the wrong message about Christians. Am I wrong and this is something fine for Christians to do?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Peng Bao on December 15, 2015, 09:58:31 AM

I've not heard that, but it does seem strange if true. The church is the sanctuary, not the fort.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Wayne on December 15, 2015, 07:34:48 PM

I've not heard that, but it does seem strange if true. The church is the sanctuary, not the fort.


Yeah, but sometimes you have to stand tall, if only to secure the sanctuary. You can't let people walk in and slaughter you.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Curtis on December 16, 2015, 06:14:34 AM
I'll add my two cents to this one. I think it really depends upon where you live and how you were raised. If you were brought up in a state like say,Texas, you're likely to be more predisposed to accepting guns in church. If you were raised up in California, you're not as likely to feel that way. I think it boils down to parenting and learning certain behaviors. I'm not sure that has to do with education, except that poorer states have less educated people. But Texas is not a poor state I wouldn't think. Grandparents teach the parents and the parents teach their children. Isn't that what God said? I forget where it is written, but doesn't God say something about training up your kids, and when they grow old they will stay trained? That's what's involved here. Not education but training. If you've been trained that getting a gun is like getting a new suit, pair of shoes or car, you will always feel there's nothing wrong with carrying it with you to church.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Fred on December 16, 2015, 07:20:41 AM

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church.


Nothing wrong with that. With all that is going on in the world today, we have to be prepared to defend ourselves. What if some anti-church crazy came into your place of worship brandishing a firearm and started shooting people? It has happened. Wouldn't you want to have a weapon at that point to defend your family? Praying to God won't stop today's lunatics from killing you and your kids. You need a gun for safety.


Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Drew on December 16, 2015, 08:00:53 AM
Why Some Pastors Bring Their Guns to the Pulpit

    Josh Sanburn @joshsanburn

Advocates push for firearms in church following shooting in Charleston

When associate pastor Brian Ulch is preaching at Trinity Lighthouse Church in Denison, Texas, he’s armed with a Glock. It sits on his right side just under his suit jacket or dress shirt. And when he’s not preaching, he’s training other churchgoers around the state to protect themselves and others.

“We feel like we owe it to our congregation to engage any type of threat,” Ulch says. “If people aren’t willing to combat a threat, then they’re making themselves vulnerable.”

Since the shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, S.C., that killed nine people Wednesday, gun control is once again in the spotlight. But this time, some gun control advocates have focused on a lack of security at many places of worship around the country.
 
 
Concealed weapons are often banned at church, and some—most recently GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee—are calling for more security and more armed pastors and churchgoers. At least one business owner in Tulsa, Okla., has offered free gun training to local pastors.

Many pastors argue that arming congregants goes against religious teachings of non-violence and that guns have no place in a place of worship. Many states, including South Carolina, specifically prohibit guns in church. “The presence of a cross in our sanctuary reminds us that God’s response to violence is never greater violence,” Pastor Baron Mullis of Atlanta’s Morningside Presbyterian Church told WGCL-TV. “This is a place of peace. … This is not a place for guns.”

But increasingly, churchgoers are able to pack heat in the pews if they wish. A number of states have recently passed laws allowing concealed weapons in churches, including Arkansas, Louisiana, Illinois and North Dakota. Bryan Crosswhite, president of 2AO, an organization that advocates for Second Amendment rights, says that roughly 25 states allow concealed carry weapons in churches. But after the shooting in Charleston, his group is pushing for more states to open up their churches to firearms.

“Churches are often gun-free zones,” Crosswhite says. “That makes them a major target for those who go to worship. In most churches, the congregation has their back to the doors. People could walk right in and shoot so many people if you don’t have a plan in place.”

Several organizations specifically work with churches to arm congregants that volunteer to provide security. Chuck Chadwick, founder and president of the National Organization for Church Security and Safety, says that his organization has worked with thousands of churches since the group’s founding in 2005, including churchgoers who attend security seminars and pastors who go through gun training. “We train men and women to run toward the sound of gunfire,” Chadwick says.

NOCSSM has worked with churches around the country, but in Texas, where the organization is located, Chadwick says his group has trained hundreds of officers who are now deployed throughout the state. Since the Charleston shooting, Chadwick says he’s been getting flooded with calls from churches looking to boost their own security.

The shooting in Charleston has already reignited the push to allow guns in church, but it could potentially have a lasting effect on people of faith who no longer feel like their churches are sanctuaries from violence. Ulch, the associate pastor, doesn’t see it that way. “Personally, I would not attend a church if it didn’t have armed security,” he says. “There’s no other place where everyone is welcomed and people can come and go freely without question. I believe every ministry owes it to their people.”
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Nikki on December 16, 2015, 05:52:50 PM

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church. I know that Christianity is changing, but isn't this way over the top?

Amen Melanie,
I've been hearing a lot about this on the news lately also, but mostly it's unbelievers making fun of believers for being afraid and acting like that, which they think is not being Christ like.  As for me, I do not want guns in my church as the Sanctuary is just that in my view. We're supposed to be different, but the church gets more and more like the world every day. No weapons welcome and no weapons necessary is my view of the church. It's obviously a knee-jerk reaction by fear mongers and I wouldn't want that type pastor as a teacher or minister in any church that I attend.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on December 16, 2015, 07:49:05 PM
You said this is a recent trend. It's it because of all the ISIS stuff going on?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Nikki on December 16, 2015, 10:07:02 PM
You said this is a recent trend. It's it because of all the ISIS stuff going on?

Who said this is a recent thread? I don't think Isis has anything to do with guns in churches, that started with an american bred crackpot shooting up a church, not anyone from Isis.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Joanne on December 17, 2015, 04:22:30 AM
You know what? I just assumed that we all could inherently recognize that it is inappropriate to bring guns into a place of worship. But I guess the church today is of a new mind and is changing so much, and not for the better. Or should I say the members of the churches are changing philosophies according to what happens in the world. I would think that to fire a gun in the house of God would give everyone reason for pause, but apparently not. :(
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on December 17, 2015, 11:26:24 AM
What are we now, pacifists? Flower children? Tree Huggers? Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand. God gave you a hand and a trigger finger so when your life or the welfare of the church is threatened he could take action through you. It's a matter of our rights and freedom and the constitution. Nothing unchristian about that.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: NoMass on December 18, 2015, 07:06:08 AM
Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand.

 &TY  When did this forum become taken over by liberals?

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on December 18, 2015, 11:11:03 PM
Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand.

 &TY  When did this forum become taken over by liberals?


When we realized that "Christian conservatives" are now worse off than liberals.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Granny on December 19, 2015, 06:19:46 AM
If the Pastor in my congregation carried guns to church I wouldn't feel any more safe than I do right now. Better security is a myth perpetrated by gun owners. In fact, I think I would feel less safe if Christians brought guns to church. My own personal opinion is that I would leave such a church, because a pastor waving a gun wouldn't be my definition of Christian. So I would find being a member of a congregation that had a Pastor carrying a gun, or that allowed people to bring guns into the house of God, a violation of Christian principles and a stain on God's building. It would be inconceivable to me that these type people were conscientious God serving Christians. Rather, they serve themselves.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on December 19, 2015, 06:14:55 PM
>>>
Nothing wrong with that.
<<<

That's debatable, I'll leave it at that. I don't presume to be the end-all or final word on anything, but my belief is that there is something wrong with Pastors carrying guns with them to preach Christ in church. Pretty sure I'm in the minority of conservative Christians, particularly in the Reformed community, but I see no biblical warrant to say anything less. The solution for what ails the world (and the worldly church) is not more guns in God's people's hands, but more Christ in their mouths. You don't become just like the world in order to win the world or claim rights and liberty. On the contrary, you set yourself apart as those who march to a different drummer. It is surely the carnal nature that tells a minister to bring a gun into the house of God because that's the only way to protect his flock. The Spirit tells us that is the way of those who will perish, because their trust is in the wrong place. Always has been, always will be.

Matthew 26:51-52

Christ is our example. What do you suppose He meant by "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" in relationship to Peter's actions to protect Him? Think about it.


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With all that is going on in the world today, we have to be prepared to defend ourselves.
<<<

With all that is going on in the world today, you think that the answer is to become just like them? Angry, fearful and anxious? Do we, who are supposed to know the sovereignty of God, believe like they do--that our fate is in our own hands?

Psalms 59:16

Flee as a bird to his mountain, the mountain retreat, the only true refuge against such wickedness. In the day of trouble, what better defense for the people of God than within the walls the of the faithfulness of Christ? We are set apart, a special kind of people, a people that are quite different from the people of the world? Is God still on the throne, or perhaps Christians today think He is sleeping? For me, the question is not one of "if the people of God should defend themselves in the house of the Lord," but how they defend ourselves.

Ephesians 6:12-17

This is the righteous defense of ministers of God in His building, not guns, high walls, chariots or canons. The sword of God, which is of the spirit, rather than the sword of man, which is carnality.


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What if some anti-church crazy came into your place of worship brandishing a firearm and started shooting people? 
<<<

What if the Devil puts on angel's wings and flew over Arkansas? What if the building I am in catches on fire with all exits blocked? What if a Lion escapes from the zoo and mauls me to death as I walk in the park? The world is full of "what ifs."  But all these what if's don't answer any biblical questions, address any pertinent Christian issues or tell us what "is" the Lord's will concerning our mindset, our will or our faithful walk in this life. Only the Bible does. ...but what if I refuse to listen to it?

Matthew 6:25-26

Matthew 10:28

What does today's minister retort? "Wrong God, we have to fear these people and bring in a gun to protect the body because it's our right and just common sense?" The "key" word there being common. That is the common response. The Christian response should be much different. Now to be sure, none of this means we tempt the Lord by not looking both ways before we cross a busy highway, or that we can jump off a cliff because the Lord will protect us. It means that we should not be anxious or overly concern ourselves with "what ifs" as if God is not able to keep you safe in your church, home or walk, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone. And honestly, the chances of someone coming into your church and shooting it up are so slim that to concern yourself over it is foolish. Christians should of all people not live in an atmosphere of fear. The chances are less than you getting struck by a plane. Frankly, I believe that a Pastor going out to buy a gun to keep in the church to shoot a intruders has much more serious life issues than any would-be church-terrorist. If you choose to sit around being anxious and worrying about "what if," it's your prerogative, but God's instruction on the matter is not to be careful or anxious over such matters.

Philippians 4:6-7

God's instruction, be anxious for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication, and with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God. God is able to secure you much better than any gun. It is peace with God that is the seal and dispel-er and deliverer of us from anxiousness and the cares of this life.


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Wouldn't you want to have a weapon at that point to defend your family?
<<<

No...  The church is the house of God, a place of refuge, a place of peace, security, a sanctuary. No man coming in with a gun can change that anymore than those who took up rocks and stoned Stephen to death changed evangelism.


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Praying to God won't won't stop today's lunatics from killing you and your kids.
<<<

You're not the first to not understand the power of prayer, and you won't be the last. But you're missing the point. Do you think that when the wicked mob attacked the prophet Stephen with stones, He was thinking, "Gee, if I only had a sword?" If you do, then you don't know about true Christianity and true servants of God. Did prayer help Stephen as He was being stoned to death by that mob of lunatics (as you call them)? Indeed!

Acts 7:59-60

My how Christians have changed over the centuries. Unlike professing Christians today, His thoughts were not of saving his own life by his own sword, but of the salvation of His enemies and the glory of God. You imply prayer is useless in such matters, praise the Lord that God's servant Stephen (and I) disagree. You can neglect the power of prayer, but I can tell you very humbly that prayer is more than ...just words. I only repeat that God's thoughts are not man's thoughts. His thoughts are that prayer to God is more vital than you believe. Again:

Philippians 4:6-7

Stephen did. His prayer was for God to forgive his murderers. It is prayer, supplication and the peace of God that will give us true peace of mind, not pistols under pious robes.  If we were doing as God instructed, we wouldn't have a mind that is anxious over these things, or be worrying about if a shooter might come into our church. The thought to go buy a gun to protect my family in case some crazy person comes-a-shooting has never crossed my mind. Not because I'm oblivious to the world around me, but because of the faith of Christ in me, where I take God's instructions seriously (Php 4:6) and so set my mind on things above, rather than on the things of this world, in the politics of earthly (carnal) fear. That doesn't make me many friends with conservatives, but Oh, what a friend I have in Jesus.


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 You need a gun for safety.
<<<

There is no safety in the gun. There is only safety in Christ Jesus. Christians today have forgotten that this is not their home. As God's people we are strangers and Pilgrims here, just passing through. The only reason we are still here is for the promulgation of the gospel. Afterward, we'll be called home. And not one single second before our ordained and predetermined time!!!  Not one second too soon. That's what so many "professing" Christians today cannot seem to wrap their minds around in their head-long rush into anxiousness and fear.

Psalms 4:8

Believeth thou this? ...or do you believe this?  ...or is this "to you" ...just words?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on December 20, 2015, 02:58:52 AM
What about the pilgrims who would walk to church with guns because they were constantly being attacked by Indians in the beginning? Same concept? Actually that makes me wonder....is self defense biblical? If someone is trying to kill you, do you let them? That can't be right. But can you harm or even kill someone if they are trying to kill you? Or especially your wife and kids? You have the duty to protect their lives, but can you lawfully kill another soul in the process? I would *assume* so....but but it does say turn the other cheek, which I'm not sure if that's to be interpreted literally...also thou shalt not kill, those who live by the sword, love your enemies, etc. But that just begs so many other related questions...like the death penalty, war, etc. It would be a hard and grievous thing to kill an attacker and know that that man just went to hell. But even more grievous would it be to fail to protect your kids and let them be slain, possibly in a horrific way. I guess the broad and basic question should be asked- is it EVER lawful for a Christian to kill another human being? Including Christians serving in the army, Christian police, Christians in government administering capital punishment, etc. Should genuine Christians avoid these occupations, knowing they will likely have to kill people?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Kenneth White on December 20, 2015, 08:46:26 AM
What about the pilgrims who would walk to church with guns because they were constantly being attacked by Indians in the beginning? Same concept?

Isn't "what about" the same concept as "what if?" I think that answering scripture with these phrases is the easy way to try and get around God's word concerning fear of those who can kill the body. The Pilgrims have to answer for themselves, we have to answer for what we do today. We can't base our behavior and theology on what the Pilgrims did nearly two centuries ago. The Pilgrims weren't all peace loving peaceful people, history shows they were as much to blame (or more) than the native Americans. These Pilgrims also burned people they claimed were witches. Wht don't we ask, What about that behavior? My point is that we all can use the defense of "what about" when we want to defend something that we want to do. I've been in this forum for over 10 years and I hear "what about" to defend everything, including abortion, accepting homosexuals, embracing free will and divorce. Couldn't I just as easily say what about the native Americans at that time? This was their land, so didn't they have the right to defend themselves against the often conniving, cheating and encroaching Pilgrims?

All I'm saying is that it is a tangled web when we look to history to try and define Christian behavior and theology instead of the bible. Tony is a conscientious Christian and therefore he gave the Christian example of Stephen, but there are many more martyrs. Do you think those people had any right to kill Stephen? No. So why didn't Stephen take up the sword and defend himself rather than sit humbly and meek as Christ did, and ask God not to lay his unjust death to these murderer's charge? That's christian selflessness. Maybe because he was a real Christian, as opposed to the self righteous, witch burning, tax evading, lawyers, Pharisees and hypocrites of our time. Maybe he actually followed Christ's direction and example that we are not to look for an eye for an eye. Because that leaves everyone blind.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39"

We can say what if someone beat us and put out our eye, are we then justified to defend ourselves by attacking him back and putting out his eye? The church today would say of course, that's justice. No, that's because (for the most part) they are of the flesh. But as Tony said, the Christian path is different from the carnal path of the world. Yes, this is not the natural inclination because we are still in the flesh and our will apart from God is to react carnally just like the world. Yet it is the spiritual inclination that should drive us because we are a new creation in Christ. Read Matthew 5:38-39 again. Christ taught it, Stephen lived it unto death, and we should hold to it despite our carnal side that rebels against it.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Mitchell on December 20, 2015, 06:33:47 PM
You're right. You are in the minority of conservative Christians. Both you and Kenneth. I'm not going to turn the other cheek when someone attacks me. Sorry. That's just not smart. And a pastor has a right to defend his house from intruders. God gave us a brain in our heads to think, it's not just there as a place for hats.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Davis on July 11, 2016, 08:17:30 PM
Sometimes being in the minority is a good thing Mitchell.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Fred on July 12, 2016, 08:28:42 AM
Sometimes being in the minority is a good thing Mitchell.

And most times, it isn't! Liberals and politically correct ministers are always whining about guns, whether they be carried by Pastors or your average American Patriot. And you guys sound like liberals to me. Whether it's being against guns or against Trump or against the war in Iraq. The bottom line is you politicians take the liberal position every time. Next time you get mugged and beaten to a pulp by ghetto punks, you'll wish you had a gun. Then it will be too late.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/29/1e/d2/291ed29fdfa0ec8bb04080310e59415a.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Rich Aikers on July 12, 2016, 09:44:35 PM
Yeah Fred, and Christians only have two enemies. The Devil and their carnal nature.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on July 13, 2016, 02:19:37 PM
>>>
Sometimes being in the minority is a good thing Mitchell.

And most times, it isn't!
<<<

What would make you say that, since that's not a Biblical statement. Consensus has never been a deciding factor of what was God authored doctrine since there are always a lot more unfaithful than faithful, even in the church.  You will note that of all the children of God that Moses took out of Egypt, only a few of them were truly saved, and the rest all perished in the wilderness because of unbelief. Of all the people who claimed to be servants of God in Elijah's day, only Elijah and 7000 were actually elect, the faithful or chosen of God. In Christ's time, of the whole nation of Israel who "thought" they were true children of God, only a residue, a vestige, a remnant out of the whole nation were actual children who were saved--and the rest again all died in unbelief. Do you see a pattern here? The majority of God's people are usually quite carnal and humanistic. For many are called, but FEW are chosen. It is the few of the church who actually take the path that is "restricted, the path not commodious, the path not widely traveled. It is because "the flesh" is weak and many there are that succumb to its wever constant pull.

Matthew 7:13-14

God's words, not mine. There are many gates that people take in their attempt to get right with God, but only one that enters into the true Kingdom ruled over by the true Christ. By your presupposition, you surmise that the majority of the church today is faithful because they hold the majority view, and that is a very bad assumption--and assumption is the mother of error.


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Liberals and politically correct ministers are always whining about guns, whether they be carried by Pastors or your average American Patriot.
<<<

If that is the case, then it's good that I didn't get my marching orders from Patriots, Liberals, Conservatives or Politically Correct ministers, but from the word of God itself--and to be frank, I hear as much whining from one group on this side as from another.  But if I base by beliefs on God's word alone (Sola Scriptura), that way I know I'm doing His will rather than my own, your will, a minister's or politician's will.  The truth is, none of them are either objective or a authoritative source for the Christian.

Matthew 7:28-29

The WORD of God is the authority, and He speaks to us today through His word. Those scribes or writers of Matthew 7 understood a liot of things but "ultimately" understood nothing. They were ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of truth because they didn't actually defer to the authority of the word of God in their beliefs. Likewise, there are a lot of modern day scribes or writers here also who make all sorts of claims without any biblical authority whatsoever. The living word teaches with authority, professing Christians today don't seem to need authority to say or believe anything, they simply name it and claim it. To them, God expects us to take up physical arms to protect His hurch, and to even crusade in a holy war as the Catholics did. The authority to do so is theirs because in actuality, they don't trust God to protect them. They would never say so publicly/verbally, but their thoughts and actions reveal they feel Apostles like Stephen were foolish not to defend themselves, and should have armed themselves with swords to prevent such murders.


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And you guys sound like liberals to me
<<<

A tree is known by its fruits, not its labels! Liberals claim I'm a far right wing conservative, and conservatives claim I'm way too liberal, so I must be doing something right!

I can understand that from your "political" perspective I sound liberal in this instance of rejecting the idea of Ministers of God brandishing guns in His Sanctuary. Frankly, from reading your posts I think your worldview is that of your own authored liberty, the idea of a man's basic rights to liberty and property without taxation, a theory that emphasizes the fundamental freedom of the individual. By contrast, my worldview is not of human freedom and personal liberty, but of an indentured servitude to Christ. And in this bond-service work of Christ, I find not only true freedom but perfect rest. As His bondservant, this is the only true and perfect peace, safety and liberty. The "work" to protect Him or His house is not mine (except abstractly in faithfulness), it is His work, His walls, His Sword and His Bulwark. The Lord is "my" defense, my battlement, protector and Shepherd, I shall not want. Yes, I understand that to the worldly or carnal mind, this is (ironically) God's people acting like sheep, and thus unpalatable. Imagine, God's people as sheep among wolves ?

This doctrine is to the willful, being foolish--but to the spiritual, as Stephen was, it is the only way to find safety and real rest in this world. We cannot protect God's people by the sword of our own hand, and it is actually foolishness in thinking we can--that's the Lord's job, and He does it perfectly.

Matthew 11:28-30

The services that Christ requires are not burdensome like in other religion, for there is no work required. Grace is as easy as it is unmerited, free and undeserved. It doesn't require me to resist evil (see Matthew 5:39) except spiritual evil in my own person, nor to start a CDA or church defense army, start a holy war, a crusade or take up arms to protect the house of God. It's a whole "different" philosophy of liberty/bondage, peace/war, love/hate, friend/enemy, wise/fool, church/state. It's to come to the realization that only God Himself can truly protect the parishioners or the church from intruders. No gun carrying Pastor ever will be able to do that. Indeed, once again this idea of men reminds me of the episode of Uzza.

1st Chronicles 13:9-10

The moral of the story? Do we not suppose that God is REALLY sovereign, and as such could prevent the oxen from stumbling with just a thought, a word, or a move of his finger? Did not God command than no one was to touch the Ark? So then, should God have been grateful that Uzza decided that he needed to put forth his own hand to protect God's Covenant Ark himself? ...Not at all. Note also that David was upset because God had killed Uzza for it, because he was thinking like a man--namely, "why would God do this when Uzza was only trying to protect the Ark?" He didn't quite understand at the time that neither God's ark, nor His people, needed protection by man's hand. And most certainly not when God has already said don't touch the Ark. Just as He has said resist not evil, or when he's said those who take the sword shall perish with the Sword. The fact that David didn't understand this principle at the time doesn't make it any less true. Uzza practiced what we might call "situation Ethics," where he surmised that the end justifies the means. That is a well oiled myth of society, but it is not true. Let us not be like Uzza and think it's our duty to protect God's ark of the Covenant, or it's just common sense for man to use his own hand to protect the Covenanted house of God today. The wisdom of Christ is there for us, let's use it.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on July 14, 2016, 02:43:42 PM
"A tree is known by its fruits, not its labels! Liberals claim I'm a far right wing conservative, and conservatives claim I'm way too liberal, so I must be doing something right!" 

)laugh(  Right on!
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Stan Pat on July 14, 2016, 06:26:20 PM
 )Goodpoint(  :amen: Indeed you are.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Melanie on November 20, 2016, 09:27:30 AM
"A tree is known by its fruits, not its labels! Liberals claim I'm a far right wing conservative, and conservatives claim I'm way too liberal, so I must be doing something right!" 

)laugh(   Right on!

 )ditto( Amazing, Isn't it! We can't get anything right.  ;)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Peter on July 06, 2017, 07:19:20 AM
Thanks Erik for finding this.
   To all concerned, first of all I think this idea of turning the church into an armed camp is insane with a capital I. Thank God it isn't really catching on anywhere but in the south, but I don't want to open that can of worms.  I do have a question about the meaning of a particular verse I can't figure out. It's really difficult to understand.

Luke 22:36
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

Why is Christ telling his Disciples to sell their coats to but a sword? That seems very counter productive to his other teachings. I see the sword back then as equivalent to today's gun. If this is correct, what is the message here if not sell your clothing to buy a gun?  :S_Confused:

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on July 06, 2017, 08:39:19 AM
That's easy!

(http://www.myimagehosting.com/4876NeKUD-144015.pic)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Lieberman on July 06, 2017, 10:33:21 AM

 :'(  :'(  What did you expect? It's the typical George, John, Fred, David Knoles response to a reasonable, non political inquiry  :'(  :'(

Radical, Political and ignorant (the interpretation, not the people). A Carnal, trivial, worthless, flippant reaction to a very good, solemn, austere and serious question.

Jude 1:18 "How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts".
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Simon on July 06, 2017, 03:31:03 PM
What about just the minster carrying a gun?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Diane Moody on July 06, 2017, 09:24:36 PM
Thanks Erik for finding this.

Erik's a good guy, he has Christian charity and helps everyone he can.


Quote
To all concerned, first of all I think this idea of turning the church into an armed camp is insane with a capital I. Thank God it isn't really catching on anywhere but in the south, but I don't want to open that can of worms.

Too late ;)


Quote
I do have a question about the meaning of a particular verse I can't figure out. It's really difficult to understand.
Luke 22:36
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

Why is Christ telling his Disciples to sell their coats to but a sword? That seems very counter productive to his other teachings.

Yeah, it kinda does seem out of place. Which means he is probably not telling anyone to sell their literal clothing for a literal gun. How does that extrude the gospel? Does anyone have any ideas?

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Erik Diamond on July 07, 2017, 12:29:37 AM
Quote from: Peter
Luke 22:36
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". Why is Christ telling his Disciples to sell their coats to but a sword? That seems very counter productive to his other teachings. I see the sword back then as equivalent to today's gun. If this is correct, what is the message here if not sell your clothing to buy a gun?


I believe that Tony Warren explained it earlier on this thread that you should check it out. (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2389.msg25461#msg25461) 

Cheers


Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Sojourner on July 07, 2017, 05:31:08 AM
That's easy!


That's ridiculous interpretation George. Whatever reason that Christ had for instructing his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords, it certainly was not to instruct them in violence against, or killing of their enemies. What Christ have you been reading about because it certainly is not the Christ that I have read in scripture. Use scripture as your guide and authority  rather than politicians. First off, when Peter actually used a sword that he was carrying in a defensive manner, Christ not only very sternly scolded and rebuked him, he plainly told him to put the sword away and that those who live by the sword would die by it. How plain is that?  He also healed the damage that had been done by Peter’s sin of using the sword to defend him.

Matthew 26:50-52
"And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword".

So whatever the reason for Christ saying buy a sword (and I don't know the reason), it was not to promote his disciples to practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Christ never taught that, he taught against that and doing so would make him contradictory.

Matthew 5:38-39
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also".

He didn't say you should defend yourself and resist evil taking an eye for an eye, he said just the opposite. A teaching that the radicals would like you to completely ignore as if it's not even in the bible. Even when Christ was put on trial, He told Pilate that since His kingdom was not of this world, His followers would not fight to defend him.

John 18:36
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

We are also of Christ's kingdom, and we don't react as the world reacts with violence and vengeance, demanding an eye for an eye. Obviously, if Christ had wanted us or his Apostles to use the swords or guns to defend themselves against enemies of God he would not have said all these things or told us not to resist evil. That's the job of governments, not Christians. Christ clearly taught, and his Apostles knew after learning from the rebuke of Peter, that he did not want them to use their swords for violence.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on July 08, 2017, 02:18:18 AM
Sojourner, guns don't kill, people kill. Ban people, not guns.

(http://www.sonsoflibertytees.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/700x700/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/o/sol107-cold-dead-hands-ill-give-you-my-guns.-when-you-pry-them-from-my-cold-dead-hands.-t-shirt-2_squarethumb.400.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Peter on July 08, 2017, 02:41:20 AM
I believe that Tony Warren explained it earlier on this thread that you should check it out. (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2389.msg25461#msg25461) 

Cheers


Thanks Erik, Yes I read that, but was hoping Tony or someone could elaborate on it so I understand a little more and it sinks in. Like should police or soldiers.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Sojourner on July 08, 2017, 07:13:27 AM
Guns in the governments hands, police or soldiers is totally different from God blessing gun toting ministers who want to arm their flock. These are two entirely different issues. Church vs. State. I think we all agree God ordained governments to rule over us. Or most all I should say, maybe not John or Fred.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on July 09, 2017, 05:23:20 AM
>>>
To all concerned, first of all I think this idea of turning the church into an armed camp is insane with a capital I.
<<<

Thank God for sensible and conscientious Christians who know the difference between the way of the flesh, and the way of the Spirit. Because when we start to think just like the world, succumbing to the lusts or desires of the flesh, are we not yet carnal? I think that you are absolutely correct, we are under the government agencies "appointed by God" to wield the sword to physically protect us against the wicked. We most certainly don't turn God's house of prayer into an armed camp simply because we have succumbed to unwarranted and unchristian fear of someone coming into the church to cause death (Matthew 10:28). What kind of witness to Christianity is that? That is the epitome of Pharisaical hypocrisy, the epitome of living in fear (1st John 4:18), the epitome of trusting in ourselves rather than God for our lives and peace of mind.

Psalms 44:5-6

Fear causes anxiousness, anguish and has torment, but perfect love of Christ in us casts out fear. If we've made our calling and election sure, this type of dread should not exist to the point of turning God's house into an armory. There are two types of fear. The righteous and reverential fear of God that the Spirit brings, and then there is the unrighteous fear that the Devil brings to those who live for this life  because they are yet carnal. The fear that in their delusion, they actually believe with all their heart that they need guns in God's house for their safety. There is no doubt in my mind that this is a type of "spiritual insanity" when Christians are not thinking with sober or sound minds. This is the type of reaction that is usually seen in the spirit of the unsaved. A spiritual insanity that was "signified" when Christ healed the mentally ill man in the tombs. In the carnal mind is where mistrust, fear and sin starts, and the antagonist and adversary there is that spirit Satan. He loves to see professing Christians react with a spiritual insanity where they have a spirit just like the world (James 4:4-5), without the mind of Christ, but unsound and that lusteth to envy. When I hear of Ministers calling for guns in church and to have their members armed, I think of the spiritual insanity of the world.

Luke 8:35-36

This portrait by Christ of insanity was illustrating that this man was unsaved, and then restored or made whole by the healing of Christ. Spiritual insanity is everywhere, and unfortunately that means even in the church. Anyone who thinks that this carnal "mentality" of arming the church members has nothing to do with arrogance, vanity and ungodly fear, is kidding (lying to) themselves. Whether these professing Christians are saved or not, that's God's business, not mine. But I do know that they are thinking carnally, with a spirit that lusts to envy just like the world, when they should be thinking as one "set apart" from the world.


Quote
>>>
I do have a question about the meaning of a particular verse I can't figure out. It's really difficult to understand.
<<<

It's difficult because it really is a spiritual portrait or picture of God's glorious and magnificent salvation program, and really has nothing to do with the well oiled myth that God is instructing His Disciples to arm themselves for physical battle, defense, protection or to resist evil by use of the sword. It cryptically has to do with God's salvation program and how Christ has to fulfill Scripture so that it "fits perfectly" according to what was written. Christ is using this imagery of food, money and sword to illustrate a spiritual truth about the gospel just as He ha done all throughout his ministry. i.e., sheep, bread, water, swords, ablutions, wolves, shoes, scorpions, etc..


(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)

The most basic fundamental flaw in most Christian's hermeneutics is in not understanding how God uses people or items as "types" which are signifying something far more important than the literal person, place or thing that God uses to illustrate the truth. Like when He speaks in future terms of some nation like Babylon, or of a plow, a ruler, a sword, a animal, a Temple, etc. Scripture interprets Scripture, so we have to consider the whole context, content and what God "actually" meant by it, rather than how we privately interpret it today. Like when the Scriptures declared the prophesy that Elijah must come first before Christ, it was actually a reference to John the Baptist who cam in the Spirit and Power of Elijah--and so on and so forth. In other words, let God define His own terms. Whether that is a man, fig tree, stones, wolves, serpents, sword, bread or gold. We ask, what is God addressing in this context and how is it gospel related, is it a historical parable, what is the spiritual signification of it, etc., etc.

Luke 22:35-38

The number two in Scripture illustrates the witness of truth (Numbers 35:30; John 8:17; Mark 6:7; Hebrews 6:18; Revelation 11:3) and the sword the word of God. The whole content of the passage, in context and in harmony with the rest of the Bible, will illustrate what Christ is talking about. It's about how when Christ sent them out as His two witnesses (two by two) with nothing, they lacked nothing even as they were sent as lambs among wolves (Matt. 10:9-16). In other words, they had no money, script or sword and yet they were Spiritually rich, Spiritually fed and Spiritually secure. That serpent Satan had no power over them. They came back to Christ declaring that the spirits and all power of the enemy was in subjection (Luke 10:17-20) to them. That's an important part of the equation. That's how Christ sent them out. But now Christ is illustrating that the tables are turned (so to speak). Something has changed. What could that mean and what has happened now.? Well, what has happened is that now Christ must go to the cross as it is the hour of darkness when His ministry on earth has been accomplished and He had to become the suffering Servant punished by God (Isaiah 53:10-11) on our behalf. In this hour of darkness Christ must stand alone, abandoned by all men where they "all" will "now" trust in their own sword and riches and script (a script is a food carrier) for their security. The point is, without Christ man is on his own. This is Satan's hour where Christ's people have "all" abandoning Him in His hour of suffering and death. Even Peter would deny Christ three times, just as was prophesied by the Lord, because he "HAD TO" go to the cross alone, without friends. He had to be forsaken by all, and this is signified by them "now" taking up their own sword, script and purse. They all had forsaken Him, according to what was written. There was none that stood with Him in the power of the Lord.

Mt 26:55-56

 Overcome with carnal fear, they all abandoned Christ where no one stood with Him in these things. i.e., with Christ they had nothing and yet lacked nothing, and now without Christ they were back to needing purse, script and sword. No one stood with Him so that it could go as it was written. The picture here is that mankind without Christ is trusting in their own sword, food and money and it is a "type" illustrating that not one man stood with Christ. They didn't trust in Christ, they trusted in their own bread (script), they abandoned His riches for their own (purse), and they forsook the Word of God to live by their own sword. Where they didn't have these things before and yet lacked nothing, in this hour of darkness they now had to trust in their own Bread, Purse and Sword. They were without God, as scattered sheep without a Shepherd.

Mark 14:27

Just as Christ uses sword and script, He here uses shepherd and sheep. This is cryptic imagery revealing they "all" abandoned him and were without Christ in the world as He had to go away in death so that when He came again they might live by His resurrection. Until Christ was resurrected bringing peace between God and man, there was the sword and warfare. With Christ having to go away, they had no power to prevail right up until their regeneration (from this death) to life at Pentecost, they were as scattered sheep without a Shepherd, as they all left Him alone.

John 16:7

A comforter or an intercessor for what? To bring them back, to restore Israel, to assure them as a spiritual advocate illustrating their warfare was over wherein Christ Jesus they as the type need neither Purse, Script or Sword. They no longer had to live by the sword, but by the sword of the Spirit, the word of the living God. They have no need to fear hunger, for their script is filled. They no lover needed to fear poverty for they are blessed with immeasurable riches. They no longer need to fear the sword of their enemies, as now (as with the 70) they are sent out as two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-4) with power and a spiritual sword and who lack nothing. They are as the Spiritual City of Jerusalem comforted, the Spiritual Temple of God restorted. Whereas they abandoned Christ selling their covering to buy a sword, now they are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, now they have the script full of living bread, and now they wield the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

So this verse really has nothing whatsoever to do with God commanding His disciples that since He was now going to the cross they should take up physical swords for protection. That is a carnal interpretation, not a Biblical one. Actually, that's absurd if you really bother to think about it. That would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It was illustrating that without Christ, they would have to trust in the flesh, but with His sending the comforter, that warfare with God, and their seeking their own bread would all cease. Again, in cryptic terms, He was telling them that they had to fast without Him (He is the true bread) as He goes away, but soon their script would be filled with bread wherein they lacked nothing.

Mark 2:19-20

This is the time when He was taken away that they are without Christ and needed their own script, wherein before they needed no Purse, Script or sword. Now when the bridegroom was taken away from them (as He prophesied), they were without the bread of life and in a fast. When Christ rose again, the true illustration of the Lord's Chosen Fast is made known in the Revelation that the true chosen fast of the Lord is in Christ Jesus, not in physically denying yourself food. And the result is that they become two witnesses who truly need no purse, Script or sword.

Isaiah 58:6-7

Not a fleshly or carnal fast, but a spiritual fast in the Lord. This is the chosen fast. A fast fulfilled in Christ Jesus where as two witnesses who received power from on high at Pentecost, feed the hungry, clothe the naked and give our riches to the spiritually poor.

Acts 1:8

We should all consider that any understanding of the verses about swords construed to be Christ saying before they lacked nothing, but now instructing that they need physical swords, has Christ commanding, "Before you went out by two and lacked nothing, now pick up the gun (sword) and take up your money and get your own food that you lack nothing." How does that make any logical sense? That is antithetical to everything Christ stood for, and what He "stands" for. That was the whole point of His ministry, that we don't trust in these things, that we turn the other cheek, that we not give an eye for an eye, that we not resist evil, that we don't live by the sword, that we go forth as humble sheep among ravening wolves, that we be harmless as doves, and on and on and on. His point is, they lacked nothing while He was there, but a little while he will be gone where they had to use their own purse, script, and Sword, but a little while again and their warfare would be ended and they would be comforted, and they shall again lack nothing because of the power of His cross. He went to that cross defenseless with our sins and all against Him, but afterward, by His work there, we all (the election) shall forever never sin and lack neither sword, purse or script. This is indeed what was signified in His sending the 70 out two by two with nothing. That the Lord provides bread, treasure and security, script purse and sword, not the world.

2nd Corinthians 10:3-5

The world's weapons are of the flesh or carnal, but our sword is of the Spirit. Just because a myriad of professing Christians may not understand these deeper spiritual truths, doesn't mean that they are not true. Mankind needs to pull back on his arrogance and self-righteous assurances of the Godliness of trusting in his sword, gun or mamon.  ...it ain't necessarily so.

As concerning your other inquiry, just because I am reluctant to discuss scriptural passages with those who take an knee-jerk, emotional or political (rather than Biblical), adversarial and argumentative posting stance, doesn't mean I can't answer the questions. But I'm not going to dabble in the futility or uselessness of bickering with those who will not listen. There's a time to debate, and a time not to bicker.

Proverbs 17:27-28

I've been studying these scriptures a long time and I don't say things that I cannot back up with scripture. When I say something, it's usually not a personal opinion (as in my humanistic reasoning, I would probably trust the gun also), it's because I have studied the issue and have come to the reluctant conclusion that it is not soundly based on scripture. I find this position of conservatives about guns to be based on man's humanistic reasoning, desires and the emotional (even self-righteous) and humanistic response to man's heinous sins. Many may certainly disagree with that, but I think it's pretty clear that it's an emotional reaction based in inherent anger and fear, rather than one carefully and Biblically thought out.

As for Old testament passages that were often brought up, they speak of the staff and Rod. Does our Pastors have one? It speaks of not mixing seeds in a field. Do we literally do that today? Are we going to Jerusalem three times a year, do we literally do that today? If your eye offends you, do you cut it out? Do we pick up serpents? Do we have any such delusion that if someone dropped poison in our Kool-Aid that we would not die like everyone else? Do we worship on the 7th day sabbath or worry about different types of threads in a garment? I think not! Because we understand that when God is using these terms He is not declaring that we do these things today, but that they were types and portraits or spiritual pictures illustrating something far more important than what type threads we weave, or whether we plow with certain types of animals together. Just as we are not a literal stone in a physical Temple building, and we don't literally lay hands on the sick and they miraculously recover, nor say to a mountain, be cast into the sea and it would slide right in. Mountains represent kingdoms. It's a matter of knowing what God is talking about.

The fact is, Christians make a conscious decision to choose to trust in guns, despite the fact that when Peter took up the sword Jesus said (and rather clearly) "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." That wasn't just for Peter because Christ was going to the cross (as some suppose), it was an edict and declaration for all of us. Christ said he that lives by the sword will die by it, not if Peter alone lives by the sword he will die by it.

But I'm getting long-winded again. So I'll repeat as I have always said. Whoever wants to go buy a gun and wait for someone to break in their house so they can dispatch them to meet God, they can do whatever they want. It's a free country and it's their prerogative. But as for me and my house, we will trust in the Lord, knowing that our security is in Him And our sword is His quickened word. And our purse is in the gold that was hidden in a field where all was sold to obtain it. Our script is full of the Hidden Manna, the living bread from heaven. So then, truly, truly, we lack nothing. God is sovereign and we trust in Him that we will not die amiss, or because He accidentally took His eyes off us for a second. That's not My God.

Daniel 3:17

Now that's Christian faith! God is indeed able to deliver his servants from a fiery furnace, and He is indeed able to deliver Christians from a thief, burglar or murderer. But if not, then it is was CLEARLY not His will that we live one more day on this earth. We should not be in the mindset that God watches over the sparrows in the air but leaves "His People" to fend for themselves and/or to die when it wasn't their time? Not so, My God is a sovereign God, much different from the gods that many professing Christians worship today. He is a autonomous, self-determining, sovereign God where not one single hair of our head turns grey or perishes without His say so. Conservative and Evangelical theology notwithstanding. Sorry, I don't follow the party line, traditions of men, or what might seem right in my own eyes, I follow the word of God.

Luke 12:3-7

In today's church that might be changed to, Be afraid of them that kill the body, and get yourself a very big gun. I think we've heard some of that here even. But in my thinking, it is foolish to think that our family will be killed, and God hath not allowed it. All lip service to "Sovereignty of God" aside, God is still on the throne and He is in control, and He still has the complete and total say over who lives and who dies. Those who are always preaching sovereignty of God and not loving worldly possessions are usually those most afraid of losing their lives, savings or possessions to strangers? But if God is truly in control, and your number is up, to be sure, you shall neither prevent it nor delay it by having a big gun at hand. If your peace of mind is truly determined by a hand full of steel, then there's definitely a Spiritual problem elsewhere. I would then say, "nosce te ipsum, Know thyself," and put your trust in God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39"

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on July 09, 2017, 05:28:03 AM
>>>
That's ridiculous interpretation George. Whatever reason that Christ had for instructing his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords, it certainly was not to instruct them in violence against, or killing of their enemies.
<<<

 )Goodpoint( That makes perfect sense to me Sojourner, but what do I know.  :-\

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on July 09, 2017, 05:35:04 AM
>>>
Yeah, it kinda does seem out of place. Which means he is probably not telling anyone to sell their literal clothing for a literal gun. How does that extrude the gospel?
<<<

It doesn't, Which is usually a dead giveaway. We all sold our clothing because we all (mankind) were offended in Him where none stood with him as He became sin for us, and in a sense, He was crucified because of us. Thank God we are all forgiven.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: bloodstone on July 09, 2017, 10:49:02 AM

Also, scholars say the Jewish ma'caira or sword of those days (what they normally carried) was not what we think of as a sword today (as used in the military calvery), but more a long knife.

I also can't imagine the meaning being that we should now sell our clothes to buy weapons. And if not, then there has to be another meaning. It's just reasonable to think so.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on July 09, 2017, 12:56:26 PM

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Kenneth White on July 10, 2017, 02:38:50 AM

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o


Reformer, you're showing your age. :)

It's a dwindling number, but there are still a few of us here who have not bowed the knee to Baal and that remember those days well.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2017, 03:27:55 AM
Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say? This is why I can't buy into Amillennialism, because it doesn't take anything literally, and spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. We are the government and the Bible teaches that the government does not use the sword in vain, but to keep law and order. Guns are used to keep law and order. Why shouldn't a Pastor be allowed to do what all the rest of us are allowed to do.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on July 11, 2017, 01:38:41 AM
>>>
Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say?
<<<

Of course it's highly allegorical, because contrary to Premillennial mythology, that's all Christ did was speak in metaphorical, figurative, highly allegorical language, and He interpreted the true meaning of some of this parabolic speaking to His disciples. i.e., interpretations belong to God, not men. Something Premillennarians usually don't understand is that Christ continually spoke in highly allegorical language.

Matthew 13:34
Mark 4:34

Why do you think Christ did that and then interpreted or explained the true meaning of the parables or allegories to "his people" when they were alone? Was their method to this or was Christ just seeking to confuse? A parable is a allegory, a story that must be interpreted to reveal a deeper spiritual or hidden meaning. And as that verse declares, Christ "continually" spoke to the people in parables, so why would any faithful Christian think it odd that the script, purse and sword He spoke about are to be understood parabolically. You are right, it is a highly allegorical interpretation, what you don't confess is that it was very "typical" of Christ. As He did to His disciples, perhaps someday when you are alone in your quiet room, he will expound all these things to you as well.

Galatians 4:22-24

Do you think Abraham knew the bond woman and the free woman were a parable or allegory and actually represented two covenants of God? Do you think the Scribes and Pharisees knew about it and understood the interpretation of this historical allegory? Do you think the Apostles knew before the Revelation of Christ of the mystery and true meaning was related to the Covenants? Nevertheless, it was an allegory in Scripture and God had always intended it to be from before the time of Abraham. Man's blindness to it not withstanding. The Spirit of Christ revealing it to whom He will, and whom it won't, is blinded. So when you protest, "Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say?" ...I say "yes, I would say," just as God always intended.


Quote
>>>
This is why I can't buy into Amillennialism, because it doesn't take anything literally,
<<<

This is really not an Amillennial or Millennial issue at all, it's a hermeneutic and methodology issue. My methodology is never to take things physically that Christ never intended to be taken physically. Like, "when I'm gone, take up your sword and resist evil." Just as the prophesy of Elijah was not to be understood physically, or of the stones in the destruction or the building of God's Temple, or the ablutions, bread, taking up your cross, wolves, plows, sheep, hunger, scorpions, thirst, vines, mountains, lampstands/candlesticks, dragons, milk, serpents, sleep, honey, scripts, purse or sword, and on and on. I'm sure the Priests, Scribes and Pharisees also couldn't buy into Christ's teachings either, because they insisted His saying "destroy the Temple and in three days He would raise it up" was meant physically/literally. By your criteria, Christ also just didn't take anything literally while they took everything literally, thus they were "unaware" that they would indeed destroy the Temple and that He as God would indeed raise up in three days. Nor does many christians today understand the Temple prophesies with a myriad of Scriptures that absolutely relate to it. e.g.:

Luke 19:47

Even as Christ taught daily in the physical Temple, these chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people would indeed destroy Him, the Temple. Not in A.D,. 70, but at the cross as was always intended. Of course, they also couldn't buy into what this passage really meant because they couldn't understand that destroying Him was in God's definition, destroying the temple. Again, too much highly allegorical speaking in the Scriptures for them.


Quote
>>>
...and spiritualizes what is so obviously literal.
<<<

Malachi 4:5

Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must physically come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply cannot believe that Christ spiritualized, what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13

Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophesy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled physically and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for a earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God never intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17

John came as a metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by book sellers, church traditions or by mimicing ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17

Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus the believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal or physical terms of swords, script and purse does not see these things as truth.


Quote
>>>
We are the government and the Bible teaches that the government does not use the sword in vain, but to keep law and order. Guns are used to keep law and order.
<<<

First, we are not the government, we elect officials to "represent" us in government. Else each of us would govern or rule ourselves and do pretty much whatever we wanted. That would be called anarchy, not government. We have those who rule over or govern us, either by military conquest, by being appointed, by succession, as representatives, by being elected, or by a inherited rule. Second, guns are used to keep law and order by the state or government, not by the church or every individual Christian. That would be called vigilantism. The church is one thing, the state is another entirely different thing. We are not given the right by God to personally go about to resist evil. On the contrary, as Christ "specifically" said (and you ignore) that we are not to resist evil (Matthew 5:38-39), so if we are hit on one cheek we are to turn to the assailant the other. Was His words in any way ambiguous or is that just something the natural man who professes Christ just doesn't want to hear deep in his flesh? This is one of those commands Christ gave that is often either ignored or twisted so that in the end it really has no meaning at all--if not meaning just the opposite of what it says. Third, there is no "Biblical Right" to bear arms, neither is there a state/government given right that all of are allowed to bear arms. The government doesn't allow a criminals to bear arms, and there is no God given right that they or anyone else have to. A government might allow one the right to bear arms, but there is no GOD Given Right to it. It's the government's job to take revenge on a assault, a robber, a murderer, not Christians. Which is why Scripture says we are not to resist evil and that the Government does not use the sword in vain.

Romans 13:3-5

God said we are not to resist evil and that we are to 'be subject' to the government. The problem is, too many Christians don't understand what being subject means. Scripture says we must be subject not only because of their wrath (government punishment) against evil doers, but also as a matter of Christian conscience, our obedience and duty to sovereign God, because he has appointed them.

1st Peter 2:13-15

Submit because of conscience, submit for the Lord's sake, because they rule by divine appointment. Which (by the way) means we cannot decide to revolt or rebel against (being in subjection to them) those who rule over us--the Revolutionary Patriots of America notwithstanding. We are to obey our rulers in all things lawful. That means in all things that God's laws allow, not that we obey only what we agree is a just law and decide to revolt against what we don't think just. The government is ordained to be the revenger of God for good, and we cannot turn on the government by the sword because we don't like something they do. For then we are turning against the revenger that God has ordained for our good. Neither can we protect God (or need to) with earthly sword against evil, on the contrary, we fight "WITH GOD" with the spiritual sword, and He protects us. It seems that some Christians have learned "nothing" from the history of the crusades as they come with that same carnal spirit of resisting evil by the sword or gun.


Quote
>>>
Why shouldn't a Pastor be allowed to do what all the rest of us are allowed to do.
<<<

Because a Pastor, Minister, Shepherd, Bishop, is a leader, overseer or steward of God's people and as such should be blameless, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach, humble, not selfwilled, no striker, sound minded and not soon angered. Not even by news reports of crime.  He's an ambassador of God's kingdom and God's peace that passes understanding. He's not appointed by God to resist evil, it's the government's job to do that, or to go to war if necessary to keep the law and peace. It's the Christian's job (and should be taught) that we have a much more important and potentially fatal warfare and adversary to battle. We bear a different shield, helmet and sword against a different enemy. It's not just fancy words or a cliché or empty platitudes of Christ--it's law. We lift up a different sword that will save lives rather than take them, as that is why we were commissioned and why we were regenerated. It wasn't to live like the world with sword in hand, but to be set apart from the world living apart from carnality and fear.

Ephesians 6:10-17

These are the words of God of not taking these things literally, but Spiritualizing everything again and defining terms as our Lord sees fit, rather than worldly theologians with their eyes not on Christ and truth but upon the nation of Israel, on Guns, on Temples, Physical and earthly reigns, earthly famines, wars and rumors of wars. Our war is not with literal men of flesh and blood, our battle is a spiritual warfare, and we go to battle with the sword that is the Word of God.

If we think Christ actually meant that we are now to take up the physical sword to fight for Christ, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. In our own ignorance, we will in turn perish with the sword. Just as the crusaders and those burning people at the stake in the name of fighting or resisting evil in the world for the sake of Christ. No, that was for the sake of their own flesh. We fight evil with the fire from our mouths (revelation 11), which is also the word of God, and the sword which is the word of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Chicago Bear on July 11, 2017, 04:00:45 AM
  )Bible-Red(  &TY   )iagree( )Goodpoint(   )God-Bless-You(
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on July 11, 2017, 08:42:56 AM
First, we are not the government, we elect officials to "represent" us in government. Else each of us would govern or rule ourselves and do pretty much whatever we wanted.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/474x/02/d5/a8/02d5a8f5839b7a37c4e49f8c60663843--unisex-guns.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on July 11, 2017, 10:01:55 AM
God, Guns, Trump

 )S_Confused( In my best Sesame Street singing voice:

(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)"one of these things is not like the other,
   one of these things just doesn't belong..."(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)


A shame some people will never get it because they are very much "yet carnal".
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Rich Aikers on July 11, 2017, 11:51:05 AM
God, Guns, Trump

 )S_Confused( In my best Sesame Street singing voice:

(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)"one of these things is not like the other,
   one of these things just doesn't belong..."(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)

 )iagree(  God, Guns and Trump? Blasphemy!
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Terrell Meyer on July 16, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
God, Guns, Trump

 )S_Confused( In my best Sesame Street singing voice:

(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)"one of these things is not like the other,
   one of these things just doesn't belong..."(https://www.scoreexchange.com/favicon-32x32.png)


 )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(    LOL    )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Erik Diamond on November 17, 2017, 07:22:26 PM

Neh 4:13
[13]  Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.


With the recent event with church shootings, many people believe that the church should be armed with guns. One pastor I debated with suggested that  Nehemiah 4:13 proves that we are allowed to have gun to protect family and church. I disagreed because the context is about protecting the builders of Jerusalem after return back from Babylon.  What is your thought on why people are trying to justify bearing arms with Old Testament verse that really have nothing to do with the New Testament church of today?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on November 18, 2017, 04:36:43 AM
Ne 4:13
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.

This is another sterling example of the stupidity of today's ministers who take scripture and misuse it to support whatever notions that they can come up with. Or for you politically correct Christians, it shows how today's ministers are "without wisdom" when it comes to adjudicating and judging scriptures. With that type of careless handling of scripture they can justify anything. In fact this reminds me of Christians saying we can kill women and children in war because God told Israel that when they conquered a city to spare not the women and children. It's that non-spiritual type of right wing thinking concerning man's view of righteousness that the Scribes and Pharisees held and fueled their self-righteous justification in having Christ Killed. God never intended that Scripture to be used that way of course, but ministers today will use and justify any action they want by scriptures that do not justify their actions art all.

As for the actual verse, these passages showing God's people building, involved in wars, protecting nations, cities, building defences, families defending cities, etc. all point to a spiritual application, and are not a demonstration that Christian minister should arm themselves and minister out an eye for an eye. That's just stupid, and I use that word deliberately.

Mt 5:3
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Today's Christians completely ignore such perfectly clear scripture that directly deal with the question, in order that they may accept and misinterpret Old Testament Scriptures that they claim imply they should make the Lord's house a literal armed camp rather than a spiritual one. Ironic that they would want to arm ministers literally to defend the flock, but they are usually the first to declare that taking Christ literally when he says we should turn the other cheek, or we shouldn't resist evil, or that our weapons are not carnal but spiritual, that it cannot be taken literally.  That's like saying that when God said the New Covenant with Israel, he wasn't talking about the church. Again, that's just stupid, or excuse me I mean "without wisdom." The Only time we ever read of Christ's disciple pulling a sword against another to defend the church is when Peter attempted to use physical arms to defend Christ, who condemned him for it. In that he was illustrating that God was in control of these events. Imagine that, God actually being sovereign and in control. In other words, God was illustrating that neither Christ nor anyone else is going to die at the hands of anyone unless it is God's will. Stephen was stoned to death for his faith because it was God's will that he be stoned to death. Or else he wouldn't have been stoned to death. Real faith is found in knowing this. I'm not talking about just accepting this view of sovereignty with lip service, but having true spiritual knowledge  that this is true. That does not mean we temp the Lord by walking in the middle of a 4 lane highway to work, it means we are not to, and do not live our lives in fear that God might let us die before our time.

Ps 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

No one dies unless it is their time to die, and no one is going to prevent anyone from being killed before their time, even if they were armed with 20 weapons and 5 hand grenades. If it is their time, it is God's will and they will die. And if they do die, it was God's will. The world doesn't know or believe that, but Christians of all people to believe in sovereignty of God should know that and walk through the valley of the shadow of death without fear of evil. rust in the Lord all you his people.

Ps 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

Ps 44:6
For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.
7 But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.
 
Gun toting Ministers thinking that they can trust in their swords to protect God's flock, or staves or guns, etc., have no idea of the power and glory of God and in my view really shouldn't be Ministers representing Christ and His kingdom on earth in the first place. Of all people a minister of God should not be afraid of him that can kill the body, and yet they twist their fear into their deception that God wants us to arm his church to protect it. As if God cannot. Shame on them, because this trend is just another form of fear mongering, and God's true love casts out fear.

May God have mercy on these gun toting ministers who rust in their arms and bring shame upon the Prince of peace and his word that we should live without fear of him that can kill their body but not the soul.

Ps 56:3
What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.

To think this verse
Ne 4:13
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.

To think this verse means that Ministers should set elders in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, and set the people after their families in the pews with with their swords, their spears, and their bows, is stupid! I mean, unwise!
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Rich Aikers on November 18, 2017, 08:45:51 AM
I agree with Reformer, but let's not make it seem like all Ministers are carrying guns into the church on Sunday. Yes, I'm sure there are some Ministers who do so in places like Texas or Mississippi who do, but this is a anomaly, not the norm. I'm sure for most of us, we'll never know a Minister who carries a gun into his church. Most ministers know this is not Christian, it is these few who give all Ministers of Christ a bad name.

Gun Toting Ministers are not the normal Minister. Let's make that clear.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Shirley on November 18, 2017, 10:16:26 AM
Gun Toting Ministers are not the normal Minister. Let's make that clear.

 )Goodpoint( Sometimes a few loud mouths make it seem like it's worse than it is.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Kenneth White on November 25, 2017, 11:22:50 PM
True Shirley, I'd say that worldly, liberal and political view "touting" ministers are much more rampant and much more deadly.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Halle on November 29, 2017, 09:48:45 AM
I agree with Reformer, but let's not make it seem like all Ministers are carrying guns into the church on Sunday. Yes, I'm sure there are some Ministers who do so in places like Texas or Mississippi who do, but this is a anomaly, not the norm.  Gun Toting Ministers are not the normal Minister. Let's make that clear.

It is the media on the Internet, TV and radio and the rest who make it appear that this is a big issue when as of now, there are hardly any ministers carrying guns to preach in church, or telling their members to start carrying guns into the house of God.  Just another example of TV warping the sense of what is going on in the world by promoting minority views as if they were a big movement. It may be at some point, but it certainly isn't now. Not even worth mentioning really.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Wcjciech Semkowski on December 01, 2017, 01:58:14 PM
I agree that it's not a big issue now. But it could be a big issue if good Christians don't stand up and speak out against this mindset or psych. I think that's really the point people are making. Nip it in the bud. Pull the weed up when it's small, don't let it have a chance to take hold and grow.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Clifford Grodin on December 02, 2017, 05:10:34 PM
 )Goodpoint(
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on October 27, 2018, 12:48:39 PM
 )anyone( Today's shooting of the Jewish church just underscores why we should have our ministers, pastors and church leadership armed with the latest weaponry in order to protect the Lord's house from the devil's ministers. This liberal idea that the churches shouldn't be armed is just plain stupid. If you want to keep your churches safe, vote Republican. If you want to keep your taxes low, vote Republican. If you want to keep your country from outsiders. Vote Republican.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on October 27, 2018, 05:13:21 PM
)anyone( Today's shooting of the Jewish church just underscores why we should have our ministers, pastors and church leadership armed with the latest weaponry in order to protect the Lord's house from the devil's ministers.

Since when does God's house need protecting from the likes of man? Is God's arm so weak he needs our fortresses, our chariots, our swords?

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

Maybe God sent the sword against Babylon? Maybe your church will be next because you think you can defend God's house with swords and munitions? I have news for you, except the Lord build His house and it is a spiritual fortress, it isn't the house of the Lord which cannot be overcome.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Frank Mortimer on October 28, 2018, 10:16:07 AM
)anyone( Today's shooting of the Jewish church just underscores why we should have our ministers, pastors and church leadership armed with the latest weaponry in order to protect the Lord's house from the devil's ministers.

Anyone? Yeah, time for me to pipe in here. I'm with Tony on this one. I may be in the minority because of emotionalism, but I also do not believe that is the minister's job. His sword is a sword of the spirit, a very different type of sword than the world's emotional sword. Leave policing to the governments of the world, the army, the guard, the state and not the church. That's the weaponry of the world, not of the ambassadors in the army of the Lord. We have no fear of worldly weaponry, as perfect love casts out fear. Fear has no power over the real church, but it rules the world's version of Christianity. Which is the world, dressed up in Christian garments. Man needs to get a hold on his vanity and get his mind right so that he understand that the Lord protects the Lord's house. Not guns or the weapons of this world.

Isaiah 31:1
"Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!"

It's the world that trusts in their own power and not in the Lord. Because deep down, they have no faith, they have no real trust that God will protect, because they are vain and actually think just like the world does.


Quote
This liberal idea that the churches shouldn't be armed is just plain stupid.

Israel tried the armed camp thing. It didn't work for them years ago or now, because they missed the point trusting in themselves. And the church is on the same path. In that wisdom, which is the wisdom of worldly people, it may seem foolish to you to trust God to protect his church. But the bible says he does so as a hen protects her chicks. But there is no real faith when the church follows the wisdom of the world. True wisdom comes from the spirit of Christ, and it is the ultimate wisdom, which seems foolishness to the world. This reminds me of what was said in Corinthians.

I Cor 3:18-20
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."

I feel these words are falling on deaf ears and man is being deceived. The thoughts of the wise are vain thoughts. The self righteous church has such a high opinion of man that he thinks he can secure God's house from evil by force of arms. That is what is really stupid and really foolish. It's not anything that Tony Warren said. His was wisdom, which is foolish to you. The real danger to the church is not some crazed shooter, but professing Christians who don't know what it is to be a Christian and are so entangled in this world that they are no different from it.


Quote
If you want to keep your churches safe, vote Republican. If you want to keep your taxes low, vote Republican. If you want to keep your country from outsiders. Vote Republican.

You've been told before, neither Republicans nor Democrats have anything to do with being the church. Those are political parties, neither of which have any truth, gospel, integrity or morality. As anyone with eyes to see have witnessed. If you want to keep your church safe, leave the world to the world and do the work of an evangelist. March to the drumbeat of the gospel, not the drum beat of the world. And if you want to keep your country from outsiders, stop colluding with the world. Stop letting the world into your country, which the church represents.

Heb. 11:16
"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Tony understands that and I think you and your cult of personality do not.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on October 28, 2018, 02:05:03 PM
if you want to keep your country from outsiders, stop colluding with the world. Stop letting the world into your country, which the church represents.

Heb. 11:16
"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Tony understands that and I think you and your cult of personality do not.

 And all God's people said  )amen(

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

You either get it or you don't.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on October 29, 2018, 02:59:55 AM
Anyone? Yeah, time for me to pipe in here. I'm with Tony on this one.

Why? Don't you have a mind of your own. I read your post and you posted the same thing Tony Warren posted. Not very original.


Quote
Leave policing to the governments of the world, the army, the guard, the state and not the church.

The governments and liberal politicians are corrupt, and in such cases our constitution allows free men to rebel against injustice. That's why the Patriots kicked out the British when they governed us. We're allowed to be free from political tyranny, taxes, immorality and liberals. And we have the right to bear arms.


Quote
That's the weaponry of the world, not of the ambassadors in the army of the Lord. We have no fear of worldly weaponry, as perfect love casts out fear.

See if your love will stop a bullet in a church. It won't. A pastor with a automatic weapon will.

Quote
Israel tried the armed camp thing. It didn't work for them years ago or now, because they missed the point trusting in themselves. And the church is on the same path.

They wish. The only reason Israel is safe today is because they armed themselves. So that they are prepared to be the center of a outpouring peace from Jerusalem when they turn to the covenant.


Quote
In that wisdom, which is the wisdom of worldly people, it may seem foolish to you to trust God to protect his church.

Maybe he protects it with conservatives with guns, ever think of that?


Quote
I feel these words are falling on deaf ears and man is being deceived.

Yes it is. By the anti Trump conspiracists, the peacenicks, the socialist media, the stupid Democrats and the bleeding heart liberals who want to condemn Israel and spiritualize the bible.


 
Quote
You've been told before, neither Republicans nor Democrats have anything to do with being the church.

Wrong, the Democrats have ruined the church. You've been told before, if you want to keep your churches safe, vote Republican. If you want to keep your taxes low, vote Republican. If you want to keep your national identity, free from strangers, thieves and rapists, vote Republican.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Wayne on October 29, 2018, 11:50:59 AM
As I said before, I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I know it's a emotional reaction and in some sense like the world's reaction. But in another I understand how people say you can't let people walk in and slaughter you. It's sort of a Christian dichotomy. I think churches should be safe, but I know that they are not.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: James Heckman on October 29, 2018, 01:12:34 PM
I keep a gun by my bed, I'm not going to forbid a minister from protecting himself or his family.

1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Lower on October 29, 2018, 06:33:57 PM
As I said before, I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I know it's a emotional reaction and in some sense like the world's reaction. But in another I understand how people say you can't let people walk in and slaughter you. It's sort of a Christian dichotomy. I think churches should be safe, but I know that they are not.

If you do, then by now, it is wise for you to take a side: you should be pro- or anti-carrying gun in church. You can't put your feet on both sides at the same time.

Because the issue is from God and you have to check yourself where you stand examining your faith by the Word of God. It is a matter of obedience to God, and we must study what did God say about that if we want to holdfast to truth.


Hos 1:7  But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Mat 5:39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

(Of course Sensational Charismatic American Dispensationalist Politicians, or 'Marxist Humanist Christians' in general those that fulfill the condition for the "maketh flesh his arm" (of Jer 17:5) do not like this commandment of God. They always come with reasoning against sovereign rule of Lord Jesus, and they think it's weakness to turn the other cheek)

Tit 1:7  For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

You think churches should be safe. How do you mean by that? By getting their leaders armed like a hitman? God forbid!

God's word teaches that the bishop must be no striker, he can't even use his hand (lest a gun or weapon).


And your feelings that churches are not protected may be because you didn't mean God's protection of "His people"/the true church (you did not mean spiritual protection, did you?). Because God is faithful, and keeps His promise in salvation - eternal life, remember, that's the protection of the church (Luk 1:68 -72).


Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Gal 6:16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The true believers of God should not grief the Holy Spirit through disobedience to the rule of Christ the Lord. Above all they have that peace of God and there is nothing that scare them - as long as they remain faithful to him.

Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 
Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 

Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Lower on October 29, 2018, 07:50:16 PM
I keep a gun by my bed, I'm not going to forbid a minister from protecting himself or his family.

1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Are you yourself a minister? or just giving a new law based on what you do in administering your private home?

And what does 1 Timothy 5:8 got to do with guns? It is about providing to them the "things of heaven" that will keep them blameless in the eyes of God. That's how you care for the family of God. You will understand the contextual meaning of what 'to provide for his own' means if you start reading from verse 1.


1Ti 5:1  Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2  The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Ti 5:3  Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Ti 5:4  But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Ti 5:5  Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Ti 5:6  But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Ti 5:7  And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Ti 5:8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

If indeed we like to follow the commandment of God:

Joh 21:17  He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

If a man is a minister, he must serve without a gun (but must steadfastly in the eyes of God). It is preferable if the minister is civil, just like Paul after his conversion had become!

Or, why do you think he left the armed killers' regime to become servant of Christ Jesus by grace of God.

Look, above, I saw a man a verse of his mouth you have copied to support your idea of letting a minister own guns for protection. That man is a best example to show you that the opposite is true, he moved from using the power of the flesh to protection by the arm of God.

That man before coming to faith, when he was also known as Saul:

Act 7:58  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 8:1  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

The Apostle Paul ... leaving all things to the Lord:

2Co 1:8  For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9  But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10  Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

----------------------------------------------------------------

Again, the Lord's commandment for a minister/servant in the church of God is:

Tit 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7  For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Thus a pastor must be civil, and be blameless as a steward of God ready to feed them Word of God. For the house of God is known as house of prayer, and not house of guns.

Isa 56:7  Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Walt Lee on October 29, 2018, 09:59:12 PM
I keep a gun by my bed,

And if it's God's will, you'll die with that gun by your bed, even with your state of the art alarm system, our German shepherd guard dog, your paid security guards, and a steel plated safe room. The bottom line is, you're not going to die even one second before it's God's will for you to die. Nor will you prolong your life one second after it's God's will for you to die. Live or die, it's all in the hands of the Lord. You only THINK you can have a hand in it.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 30, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
>>>
I keep a gun by my bed,
<<<

A gun can't protect you when God calls your number. And man? The unadulterated truth is, he has no ability to call your number. As Walt Lee said so wonderfully, when you die, it will be because sovereign God decided your time on this earth was up, not because man threw a wrench in God's plans. Selah.

Or to put it another way, if it isn't God's will that you should die, there isn't a man on earth who will kill you.

Radical, isn't it? Actually, it's just the gospoel truth. As I said before, that doesn't mean we tempt God by walking across a street without looking both ways, but that we should not be anxious (like the world) about anything or any man, but have our minds at ease in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:6-7

How is it that peace of mind is so lacking in the church today? Our minds should be at peace in Christ Jesus where we are careful or anxious about nothing. Where has it gone in this age of insanity? Keep your eyes on Christ and not on this world and what man can do to you. The Christian way is with prayer and petition, make your wants and needs known to God. Don't be led by the nose by the world and its fears.


Quote
>>>
I'm not going to forbid a minister from protecting himself or his family.
1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
<<<

This is a misapplied Scripture. You can't actually believe this Scripture means a church minister and his flock should arm themselves with swords or guns so that they can physically protect the Lord's house? I can only "assume" that you think that a man providing for his own, in some way means arming the church with guns?

...that's a stretch.

Only in today's atmosphere could this passage be applied to arming ministers and members of the church to prevent massacres and martyrs. Using the criteria of this Scripture, to not arm the church (which generally all didn't do) would necessarily mean all the saints preceding us had denied the faith and were worse than a infidel or unbeliever.  )Say_what(

Following that line of misinterpretation, all the ministers of other eras who didn't arm their churches have denied the faith and are worse than infidels. More to the point, this passages about providing "doesn't say," nor does it have anything to do with the evil of not providing force of arms. It has to do with the loving care and provision of man for his family. If anyone who professes Christianity, does not give provisions to His family or kindred, then that was a sign that he was living contrary to the Christian faith, which is in effect, denying it. This was contrasted with the unbelievers or infidels who did ordinarily take care of their children, parents and poorer relations. ...which (by the way), Christians tend not to do anymore.

...so it seems that now we've reached the point of grasping at straws to justify an's fear in the church.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 30, 2018, 10:06:54 AM
>>>
As I said before, I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I know it's a emotional reaction and in some sense like the world's reaction.
<<<

Wayne,
   Mixed feelings means mixed emotions. As in, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? I understand that. In my view the inclination to get a gun to guard the church when trouble arises is a carnal or flesh led emotion that is against the spiritual pull of God. I think you used the appropriate word when you said "feelings," which is the normal "human" emotional reaction to what is going on around them. The problem is, we aren't supposed to be just like the world's people to act and react as they do. We are a heavenly select, special, peculiar, unique, chosen people who are "set apart" from the rest of the people of the world. Our feelings aren't always the provocation of a Godly or righteous reaction to evil. Sure, in everyday human reasoning, if someone punches you in the face, your natural feelings would be to resist him with a punch right back in the face. As Lower referenced, the "eye for an eye" works based philosophy that Christ specifically rejected. As Christ is our faithful ruler and example, we should listen when He puts forth a very different and Christ-centered reaction. An action that goes against our carnal nature because it is led of the Spirit. He illustrates we should react very differently than the natural man, as we are those uniquely chosen for the service of God. As Lower referenced, and I concur, Christ's words are not ambiguous and even references the "eye for an eye" man's works scenario, as not part of the New Testament Covenant economy and reaction to assault.

Matthew 5:38-39

Try as man may be twist this, there really is nothing ambiguous about this. Sure, its not something the natural man wants to hear, but it is something the Spiritual man must receive. It's amazing to me is how there has been all sorts of obtuse attempts to in essence subvert, distort, and even rewrite these "very plain' and unambiguous teachings of Christ to "mean" the very opposite of what Christ actually said. But our Lord's own example in His own life of meekness and humility testifies and should be our teacher. Sadly, most often it is just a side note. When Christ Himself was struck on the cheek (John 18:22-23) and made no attempt of any kind to retaliate or avenge Himself, that demonstrates vividly Matthew 5:38-39 in action. As did Paul's reactions, and Stephen's reactions, and a host of other faithful Christian martyrs. They all humbly submitted to one indignity after another without physical retaliation, but with prayer and forgiveness, petitioning God for their enemies forgiveness. As Lower also said, today this is considered a weakness by the world and worldly Christians, when it is actually a blessed act of great strength and faith. These faithful martyrs, unlike the worldly Christians today, understood what these passages were meant to convey. They asked for the wicked's forgiveness, while today's Christians would rather ask for their heads. Because they are so much more worldly than we'd like to admit, and so much more subject to their own hidden fears and feelings of anger and pride.


Quote
>>>
But in another I understand how people say you can't let people walk in and slaughter you. It's sort of a Christian dichotomy.
<<<

But the dichotomy is a false dichotomy. What I'm saying is either true or it is not true, it's what Christians should do, or what Christians shouldn't do. It's either my manufactured lie, or the gospel truth word for word. Don't be dissuaded by the flesh to war against the Spirit. Listen and hear the witness of another of the amazing words of Christ, where again there has been all sorts of obtuse attempts to subvert, distort, and even rewrite the "very plain' and unambiguous messages of the Lord to His people.

Matthew 10:28

The real dichotomy is between Christ's words throughout the Bible, and the carnal Christian's reinterpreting them to justify their fear and retributions. All His words have been changed in some way to mean that we are indeed justified be afraid that someone will break into our church and slaughter us. So much that we should arm ourselves, lest someone does kill the body. My friend, there is being Christ-centered, and then there is being self or body-centered. You say you understand this fear. That's good. But it's one thing to understand it (I think we all do), but it's another thing to condone it, and believe the humanistic/natural man reaction to it as the faithful thing to do. Armed churches are not the answer to the degradation in the world (and church), rather the answer is the churches armed with the gospel. This book is our defense, our fortress in time of attack, and the Holy Temple of God's person is our Mountain Retreat, a strong refuge and sanctuary from all evil.

Psalms 11:1

When you see the abominations stand in the Holy Place, flee to the mountains--which doesn't mean go to the Alps, the Rocky Mounttains, the Himalayas, the Appalachains or the Sierras. It means flee to God, who is your only real peace and safety in this world of evil.

Finally, generally speaking, churches aren't being "physically" overcome and having their people slaughtered. Yes, a few churches or synagogues have been attacked and some people killed. And because of the widespread coverage of it and incendiary glorification of its evil perpetrators by the media, it has provoked copycat crimes and a greater sense of fear by the world than is warranted. This in turn has caused many to go berserk with fear, a type of hysteria or spiritual insanity in "some professing Christians" wherein they are calling for making God's house become a "physically" barred and armed camp. As if God's house actually could be protected with carnal weapons of warfare. This spiritual insanity is what a little unhinged fear will do to the carnal mind.


Quote
>>>
I think churches should be safe, but I know that they are not.
<<<

Another statement that is fundamentally flawed and foundationally unchristian. God's church is unquestionably the safest group in the entire world. At least the true church is. God has sealed or secured His people until the day of redemption, and promised that He is always with them and they will always be safe. The only question is, "...believeth Thou This?"  Or is our safety really dependent upon our own guns and actions? God says true love casts out fear, so the question really is, why is there such fear in the church today? After all, to live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21), is it not? The question is,  "believeth Thou This?" What then has the Christian to be anxious over or to worry about? As Christ said, don't fear him who can destroy the body, but Him who can destroy body and the soul. "believeth Thou This?" Christians always talk about common faith, but it seems it is really so uncommon. But as for me and my house, I'm not going to purchase a gun and be looking to secure, protect, or avenge my brothers and sisters in Christ who may die as martyrs, because that is the Lord's job and He does it perfectly!  I'm a evangelist, not a Roman soldier. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. My warfare is spiritual, not carnal of the flesh. I am not overcome by fear, I overcome fear in Christ Jesus. You say you think churches should be safe, but you know that they are not. But I say I know the church is safe, and I know Christians should know that and do not. The church is safe because it is sealed or secured with something infinitely more powerful than guns and bullets. It doesn't need my carnal weaponry to be safe, for I know it is sealed by the most powerful force in the universe.

Romans 12:19-21

As the church, we should never be bound by the constant worldly fears around us. Yes, they have reason to fear, but as understanding the love of God, we should be just the opposite. We are those who can never be killed, never victimized, already delivered and rescued from evil. We are the elect to whom everything is promised by the precious blood of Christ, and the only ones who will ever "truly" be in Peace and Safety. Let the dead bury the dead, tend to the living.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on October 31, 2018, 12:08:39 AM
when you die, it will be because sovereign God decided your time on this earth was up, not because man threw a wrench in God's plans.

What if you don't believe in God's sovereigny over all things? Most Christians aren't Reformed and don't believe in that kind of sovereignty.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 31, 2018, 01:25:36 AM
>>>
What if you don't believe in God's sovereigny over all things?
<<<

What kind of Sovereignty do they believe in? Sovereignty means "autarchy," or complete control, complete autonomy or governance. If I say God is sovereign, but He can't have who He wants, then He's not sovereign--obviously. If someone isn't Sovereign, He isn't God. ...at least not the God of the Bible who predetermines and rules over all creation.

Colossians 1:17
Psalms 135:6

What other kind of sovereignty is there for a God but total control? Not only are all things called into existence from nothing by Him, but all are maintained in earth specifically because they serve His will and His purpose. Do you think Pharaoh was allowed to live and rule into the days of Moses by his own intellect, or by coincidence?

Romans 9:17

Pharaoh wasn't going to kill anyone who wasn't appointed to die that day he killed them, and Pharaoh wasn't going to save anyone who the Lord appointed to die in the sea with Him that day. In a phrase, God's sovereign good will and pleasure to do whatsoever He pleased, that He did in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places (Psalms 135:6). There is nothing that God cannot do, and that is Sovereignty. If one doesn't believe in God's sovereignty over all things, then they don't believe in Jehovah God. Because a non-sovereign God is decidedly not the God of the Bible, it's a pseudo or false god. I don't know what god it is they believe in, but I know that it is not the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent God that Christians worship.

Daniel 4:35

The Lord does whatever is His sovereign good will and pleasure to do, and there is no man who can stay His hand from doing what He pleases. Whether it is His will to drown Pharaoh's army (Exodus 15:4) in the sea, or to save Rahab the Harlot from among the enemies of God in the accursed city, or that Barrabas (son of the father) would be set free instead of Christ, so He could be crucified to make us sons of the father, it all shows the sovereignty of God over all things. God's sovereignty wasn't a secret to God's righteous servants--like Job.

Job 42:2

Job is confessing God as the sovereign omnipotent one who rules over all creation, knowing even our thoughts, as contrasted with his own fallible and feebleness, which God had before proved.
 

Quote
>>>
Most Christians aren't Reformed and don't believe in that kind of sovereignty.
<<<

The kind of Sovereignty where God is on the throne and is in full control over this earth? "THEN" most Christians are dead wrong. Not for not being Reformed Christians (whatever that means today), but for not believing that God is the almighty who is in full control over his creation. How then did He harden Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 4:21) that he would not let God's people go if He didn't have sovereign control over men? How then did He shut the mouth of the lion (Daniel 6:22) that Daniel would not be devoured?

Hebrews 11:7

It took a sovereign God to warn Noah so that the 8 souls of Noah's family were the only ones saved, while He destroyed the entire rest of the world--did it not? His plan was to pour out His wrath upon them, and He made provision for the elect to be saved in the midst of it. That was total control and THAT is the Sovereign God that Christians worship. Not a impotent god who can do nothing to protect or save those who are His.

Moreover, if most "professing" Christians don't believe in that kind of sovereignty, they must not even believe. Because all through the Bible God makes it clear that He is in total control and knows the thoughts and intents of the heart, so that none will hurt nor destroy in His Holy Mountain. So much in control that Pilate couldn't even have the power to allow Christ to be crucified, without God's say so.

John 19:10-11

That's the sovereign God of the Bible. So much control He has so that even the very hairs of our head are numbered and known by Him, and that not a single bird falls to the earth without God allowing it. Yet you say some Christians don't believe God has that kind of total control? My question would be "what Bible are these professing Christians reading?" Christ even says so, and it is in this exact context of instructing His children not to be fearful of murderers. If only these "professing" Christians would receive what Christ says "in context" on this matter.

Matthew 10:28-31

"...believeth Thou This?"  Indeed God is sovereign over even the sparrows of the air, and His children are much more valuable to Him than sparrows. But who will believe our report? Christians led of the Spirtit, but not the many "professing" Christians who are led of the flesh. Carnal Christians who must be one or the other, but not both Carnal and Christian.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reuben on October 31, 2018, 10:56:07 AM
 )amen( The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak indeed.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on October 31, 2018, 03:27:01 PM
I keep a gun by my bed, I'm not going to forbid a minister from protecting himself or his family.

1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

James, I get it. Don't mind the liberals!

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/474x/02/d5/a8/02d5a8f5839b7a37c4e49f8c60663843--unisex-guns.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on October 31, 2018, 03:28:31 PM
Are you yourself a minister? or just giving a new law based on what you do in administering your private home?

And what does 1 Timothy 5:8 got to do with guns?


Well Lower, you can't provide for them if you are dead, can you?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Wcjciech Semkowski on November 01, 2018, 02:50:44 AM
George.  Let me see if I have this right. You don't believe that God is almighty and can do anything?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Melanie on November 01, 2018, 12:54:32 PM
if you want to keep your country from outsiders, stop colluding with the world. Stop letting the world into your country, which the church represents.

Heb. 11:16
"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Tony understands that and I think you and your cult of personality do not.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

You either get it or you don't.


 )God-Bless-You( Reformer and Frank

You are absolutely right. In every church, in every group or faction, and in every Christian assembly, there are going to be people who get it, and other people who don’t. That's been the nature of the church. Whether from Cain and Abel, to the group that Moses brought out of Israel, to the 12 Apostles, there is always going to be someone who just doesn't get it. Children of the flesh who only think about the politics of this world, and children of the spirit who think about the world to come. These are two groups, one who thinks they have figured out how to make the world righteous through the acts of man, and the others who know the world is doomed and the only way to save it is through the gospel. As frustrating as it might seem, these two groups will never come together as a church because one is carnal. In other words, they can't get it because they don't have the spirit to get it. That may sound judgmental or elitist, but that is the truth as I see it from scripture. How would a child of God think God is not all powerful or cannot do whatever he wants? What would make people so blind as to think that way? I think it is people with the spirit of this world, who don't look at their sojourn here as strangers and pilgrims. People who fear and will do anything to remain here and protect their riches at any cost. Because they think just like the world does on how important that is and how to accomplish that.


"But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee. For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding. O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own. 1 Chronicles 29:14-16"

But now we desire a better country, that is the heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he hath prepared for them a city (Hebrews 11:16). Reformer said it best for all you who trust in the sword and think God isn't in control of who lives and dies.

You either get it or you don't. Like it or not, it's a spirit thing.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Herman Stowe on November 02, 2018, 12:28:29 AM
You either get it or you don't. Like it or not, it's a spirit thing.

It really is. And I think Tony, Erik, Lower, AllofGrace, Frank, Kenneth and others have said the same thing, but maybe not those exact words. We're never going to argue anyone into changing their mind about living in this world as the world does. It really is a spirit thing. It's all of grace and we have no control over that. We are merely witnesses.

I Corinth. 3:7 "So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on November 02, 2018, 03:24:17 AM
You know, trying to beat us over the head with a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns could be considered a form of bullying.
(https://pjmiller.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ar-15.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Melanie on November 02, 2018, 08:08:14 AM
You know, trying to beat us over the head with a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns could be considered a form of bullying.

Only in the church of our time could scripture proofs be called bullying, God be seen as subordinate to self-preservation, and guns and Trump be equated with righteousness and God. Only in this time, with this people and this twisted idea that Christianity is politic.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Timothy 4:1-2"

THEODORET comentary explains like English Version, "seared," as implying their extreme insensibility; the effect of cauterizing being to deaden sensation. They are numb to the bible, they have no more feeling toward it as authoritative and so have no fear to deny or ignore it.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Jason on November 02, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
A balanced view

https://religionnews.com/2017/10/03/the-gospel-for-gun-loving-christians/

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: David Knoles on November 03, 2018, 07:25:14 AM
I can say that I don't agree with this anti gun sentiment from Tony and the people in this forum. What would the world be like if there was no American army with guns in world war II? We'd have a world run by Hitler. You all should use your heads. Evil men have always been dealt with.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Philly Dawg on November 03, 2018, 02:35:53 PM
I can say that I don't agree with this anti gun sentiment from Tony and the people in this forum. What would the world be like if there was no American army with guns in world war II? We'd have a world run by Hitler. You all should use your heads.

We should all use our heads? You Trump cultists should all use your ears and stop with the constant lies, distortions, deceit and fear mongering. Tony has never said he is anti gun, and I'm sure you know that but as following the tactic of your mentor. This thread concerns churches becoming armed camps, not whether guns should be outlawed. You should read tony's article concerning guns, governments, police, armies, etc., etc., and stop spouting lies and twisting the truth. But I guess you take your cue from the POTUS instead of God.


Quote
Evil men have always been dealt with.

Evil men will always be dealt with, by the Lord. The church is lucky they are not being dealt with, because they deserve it, as we all do. They have much greater things to do than let misguided fear and anger get the best of them. Open your eyes, open your ears, open your mouths.

Romans 12:19-21
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

Christians listen to God. That's what they do. They go with the flow and they don't lie by twisting people's words, nor do they walk all over the bible or spout hatred and create a false division. You should try living in the spirit and doing what Tony does sometime instead of defending deceit and distorting what he says and the word of God he bears witness to.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: AllofGrace on November 03, 2018, 08:59:14 PM

You should read tony's article concerning guns, governments, police, armies, etc., etc., ....


I have searched for the article you mentioned but cannot find it. Do you have a link for it? I would be interested in reading it.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: aquatic on November 04, 2018, 12:15:52 AM
Here you go


http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/can_christians_rebel_against_government.shtml
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Jon Thomas on November 04, 2018, 01:51:03 AM
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/can_christians_rebel_against_government.shtml


Thank you aquatic,
  Tony, you are a man of God of great wisdom and strength among the weak. God bless you brother.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Pearson on November 04, 2018, 05:05:30 PM
[Soapbox mode on]

I've read the articles, I've read the Christian forums, and I've considered each person's reason for their belief the church should be protected by force or arms. For many, the scriptures don't seem matter and their point of view is more guided by their upbringing and their location on the map. I've thought about this and thought about this and I finally have come to this conclusion. Most of these Christians all seem to have the same basic problem. They are self-centered and vain. Not all of them of course, but from the things that they say I believe they think that they are somehow better than the other wicked sinners of the world and are convinced that they are righteous in God's eyes for taking up arms to resist political and physical evil in the world. I mentioned that the American Revolution may not have been the proper Christian action and was met with such vitriol that I gave up trying to discus the topic. They won't come right out and say it but their replies to scripture reveal they think they know better than God the proper response of Christians to taxation, God's people, politics, Israel, and in dealing with evil among us.

Col. 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I think they have been spoiled or led away captive through the world's philosophies and the natural laws of men. I think there is only one reason for this. They are vain so that they think far too highly of themselves and their position and connection to this world. As Tony implied, they are not so much strangers here in this world, they look at themselves in this world as permanent residents.

What do you think?

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: AllofGrace on November 05, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
Here you go


http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/can_christians_rebel_against_government.shtml

Thanks! I have believed those very things for over 20 years. I taught my children those exact things about the revolutionary war years ago while homeschooling them.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Stan Pat on November 05, 2018, 05:17:13 PM
You either get it or you don't. Like it or not, it's a spirit thing.

It really is. And I think Tony, Erik, Lower, AllofGrace, Frank, Kenneth and others have said the same thing, but maybe not those exact words.
I Corinth. 3:7 "So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."

I think the motto of the TV evangelical is trust in the Lord, but carry a 45 as backup. Which isn't really trust is it? It's really trust in the 45 and if it fails, pray the Lord will have your back.

(http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/User_Images/God-Protected.jpg)

If God's house is protected by the Lord, why would you need a gun. Unless you don't really trust the Lord to protect it and you understand you have to protect it yourself. If it is protected by the gun, then you have no trust in the Lord to protect it, and the gun is your real source of protection. You can't have it both ways. You either get it or you don't. This isn't the house of the wild, wild west, it's the sanctuary of the church in the midst of a perverse and unsaved world. Shine as a light, not as the flame of a gun barrel.

Philippians 2:15
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world."

Our motto should be, you either get it or you don't.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: George on November 06, 2018, 05:54:01 AM
Thanks! I have believed those very things for over 20 years. I taught my children those exact things about the revolutionary war years ago while homeschooling them.


Yeah well not every Christian believes that. In fact few Christians believe that. The founding Fathers sure didn't and they were the Christians who started this country. Give me liberty or give me death!

(https://images.slideplayer.com/26/8865171/slides/slide_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Drew on November 07, 2018, 09:43:56 PM
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments. Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.

Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]

That kind of milk toast peace is for long haired liberals and democrats, the sword is for Christians to fight against those who would cause harm to the house of God. Didn't God send two flaming swords to protect Israel? Do we just forget that?

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: aquatic on November 08, 2018, 03:22:33 AM
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments.

Do you not agree with Christ? He paid taxes and accepted the tyranny of Rome.

Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.

Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]
Read that in context. Christ used the sword as symbolism for division. Division between those in the same household. Believers and unbelievers.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on November 11, 2018, 09:10:50 AM
>>>
I have believed those very things for over 20 years. I taught my children those exact things about the revolutionary war years ago while homeschooling them.

Yeah well not every Christian believes that.
<<<

George,
   You're stating the obvious. Not every professing Christian believes anything, including that Jesus was God, the Pope is the head of the church, Mary was a harlot, the Bible is God's infallible word, there was a actual Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, punishment in Hell, Moses parting the Red Sea, the worldwide Flood, and so on and so forth. Whether every Christian believes something is immaterial to whether it is the truth or not. That fact always seems to escape you. Man in his own wisdom is a foolish man to God. For God is still on the throne and has a hand in even that.

1st Corinthians 1:19-20

To you it is wise for the Christian to take up arms to defend the Lord's people in the Lord's house. To me, that is not wisdom, but faithless foolishness. The Lord judge, because unlike man, He judges righteously. And "every" faithful, Christ-centered Christian, believes that.


Quote
>>>
In fact few Christians believe that.
<<<

If you mean few professing Christians, you may be right--I don't know and I don't presume to know. But it doesn't change anything. Few children of God believed Christ was the Messiah at His first coming, but that didn't change the "fact" that He was. The point being, in carnal man's wisdom, the strength in the faith of Christ is considered weakness. The man of the flesh despises the man of the Spirit because the two are at war with each other. It's the flesh telling the church to arm themselves, and the Spirit that reveals this is a product of the flesh and not the Spirit. We're at a point now where actions that wouldn't have been dreamed about by most Christians a few years ago are now spoken about openly and contemptuously. It only demonstrates vividly a despising of the truth and the continual degradation of the church as we draw closer to that day when we say, "how are the mighty fallen."

1st Corinthians 1:27-29

So, if few Christians believe n that type of faith (as you say), we are one step closer to that day.


Quote
>>>
The founding Fathers sure didn't and they were the Christians who started this country.
<<<

The "founding Fathers" must speak for themselves, but God sure did, evidenced by His infallible word. This country and its tribes were here long before conquerors landed, and seditionists rebelled. But like Canaan, it was not God's will that the natives of this country remain in the seat of power. And like Canaan, it was not because the settlers, nor revolutionaries were more righteous, but because of the sin of the people here in the land. A demonstration of the sovereignty of God, not the righteousness of "founding fathers." Note what God explains to his children Israel about such arrogance, vain, carnal thinking.

Deuteronomy 9:4-6

You think God established the United States because the Revolutionaries were righteous in their thoughts and actions, or noble and justified in their goings? Think again!


Quote
>>>
Give me liberty or give me death!
<<<

Few who think that way understand the true nature of their lack of liberty where they "are already" under penalty of death. Indeed the church of Christ's day sought Liberty from the Romans and in the process failed to understand the true nature of their captivity and servitude was spiritual. As saith the preacher, There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be again.

John 8:33-34

A Christian set free in Christ, "Has both Liberty and freedom from Death," which no man can take from Him, and no man has but in Him. A liberty that no state, no country, no nation can take from them. Riches that no tax system can take from him. And it is enough because we are strangers and Pilgrims here, except this world be our true home. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on November 11, 2018, 09:26:16 AM
>>>
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments.
<<<

That's Ok, no one has to agree with me--in fact I'd be nervous if "everyone" did because I know I wouldn't be preaching the truth. That being said, the only alternative to what you said is "sedition," which is decidedly unbiblical, not to mention unlawful in church and state. But the problem really is, that's not what I say, it's what the Bible says. So I "think" your disagreement is not with me on these issues, but with what God said about obedience and submission to government power. Because I quote God, not myself. I'm a witness bearing His testimony, I'm not the author.

Romans 13:1-3

Whosoever therefore (or thus) resists that government power is resisting the law of God. So if we really want to be transparent about it, let's just call it what it is. You actually disagree with what God's word says we are to do--and I understand that. But don't put the ordinance against sedition or insurrection as from my mouth, it is "clearly" the word of God--that is to say, if you believe that sort of thing. If not, then the whole conversation is moot.

...as the age old proverb says, "don't blame the messenger" for the message!


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Drew on November 13, 2018, 05:31:11 AM
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments.

Do you not agree with Christ? He paid taxes and accepted the tyranny of Rome.


I do not agree with Tony but yes, I agree with Christ. As for him paying taxes, they weren't taxed to death on everything like we are now. Do you really think he would stand for the unfair taxes we have today from state, local and federal?  And he told us to buy swords.

He said therefore to them, But now he that has a purse let him take [it], in like manner also a scrip, and he that has none let him sell his garment and buy a sword; [Luke 22:36]


Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.
Quote
Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]


Read that in context. Christ used the sword as symbolism for division. Division between those in the same household. Believers and unbelievers.

I didn't read anything about family in that verse and I didn't read any word symbol. And what about the Luke scripture I just posted?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: aquatic on November 13, 2018, 01:32:01 PM
Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.
Quote
Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]


Read that in context. Christ used the sword as symbolism for division. Division between those in the same household. Believers and unbelievers.

I didn't read anything about family in that verse and I didn't read any word symbol. And what about the Luke scripture I just posted?
[/quote]

I said read it in context. Let me do it for you then:

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

It’s also in Luke again, except this time the word sword is actually replaced with division:


Luke 12:51-53

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.




Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Doug Johnson on November 13, 2018, 05:46:17 PM
The context is a sword, not a flower.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: ZeroCool on November 13, 2018, 10:15:15 PM
Well. That's certainly not the Catholic interpretation. Have you gone renegade Doug?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on November 14, 2018, 01:23:44 AM
 )inter( Renegade or not, Catholic or protestant, the only question is, is he right? The context is a sword, not a flower. The context is warfare, not peace. The context is Jesus bringing us a sword to do battle. That is equivalent to today's guns is it not? That's the context.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Doug Johnson on November 14, 2018, 02:34:32 AM
Well. That's certainly not the Catholic interpretation. Have you gone renegade Doug?

Not at all, just stating a fact that I hope is not lost.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Drew on November 14, 2018, 08:45:12 AM

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


So we're not to take the sword literally? I'm sorry I don't agree with this liberal philosophy. I'm not a non-literal or amilly guy who spiritualizes these things. I take what is said very literally. That verse means what it says, so even if people of your own household stand against you as a enemy, you still take the sword to defend yourself. The sword was not for playing cards with, it was for defense, punishment and attack. Christ says he came to have his people take up the sword, not so they could be liberals who want peace and desires to ban the sword.

One of the best theologians of all time, Dr. John Walvood says of ruling powers that they bear not the sword in vain but that they are the ministers of God to administer justice upon the wicked. It's the same principle because it means we defend ourselves and use it for judgment. It doesn't matter if it is through government or through church ministers or we dend ourselves in our own household, even if liberal family members are upset and don't like it. We still do it because he didn't come to bring peace between us.
 
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: aquatic on November 14, 2018, 04:38:55 PM

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


So we're not to take the sword literally?

NO..there are 7 pages in this thread explaining why. Me repeating all the verses isn’t going to make you understand when you’ve ignored all the others.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Drew on November 15, 2018, 02:19:26 AM
You see aquatic, that's the difference between the Premillenarian and the Amillennarian. We take the Bible exactly as it says and you spiritualize it to mean whatever you want it to mean. The 7 pages in this thread don't explain away changing the word sword to mean no sword. That's done by you Amillennarians. And just so you know, just because I don't accept your non literal interpretations, doesn't mean that I've ignored scripture. I just don't fall for the anti Israel, spiritualizing and anti free will ways that most theologians agree is self serving.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Melanie on November 19, 2018, 10:10:43 PM
You see aquatic, that's the difference between the Premillenarian and the Amillennarian. We take the Bible exactly as it says and you spiritualize it to mean whatever you want it to mean. The 7 pages in this thread don't explain away changing the word sword to mean no sword. That's done by you Amillennarians.

No more than the word Serpent means no Serpent, stars thrown down means no stars throne down,  Temple means no Temple or Bread means no Bread. The real difference between your Dispensational theology and Amillennial Theology is that Amillennialists allow God to define what HE is talking about because he is the only one who can.


Quote
And just so you know, just because I don't accept your non literal interpretations, doesn't mean that I've ignored scripture.

No, but to not accept Christ's non literal interpretations, does mean that you've ignored scripture. You know, the Serpent, Stars, Temple, Bread, lada, lada, lada?



Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on May 21, 2019, 12:39:34 PM

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o

Tony, where can we find posts from the old forum?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 23, 2019, 05:53:30 AM
>>>
Tony, where can we find posts from the old forum?
<<<

I'm afraid that ship has sailed. I have it on a memory stick backuop but I'm not going to resurrect it or place it back online. Sorry.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: laurenp on May 23, 2019, 12:00:33 PM
Thanks for letting me know.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 23, 2019, 06:58:05 PM
Quote from: Tony Warren
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. I have it on a memory stick backuop but I'm not going to resurrect it or place it back online. Sorry.

Does that means your studies on the beast of Daniel and Revelation won't be back online?
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on May 24, 2019, 12:26:35 PM
Thanks for letting me know.

Why? Trying to beat Conservative Christians over the head with a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns could be considered a form of bullying by liberals.
(https://pjmiller.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ar-15.jpg)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on May 24, 2019, 05:47:01 PM
Wow!  I'm convinced that there is a mentality of the fanatical Trump supporter that just doesn't fit with the values and honor of Christianity or the indivisible church. At least when I read the posts all from these people, they all seem scattered, not well thought out, carnal, and certainly not of a Christ Spirit-filled nature. Not some of them, all of them seem to follow the same chaotic reasoning. Just blabbering on about nothing of moral importance, character, or Godly design, just a lot of rhetoric.

I believe that the thinking demonstrated in Dan's posts are consistent with some others, but inconsistent with the thinking of a Christ-centered Christian. They are more in line with the carnal thinking world that thinks this world is all that they have. Of earthly Israel, of fascism, of great political leaders, of automatic weapons in the hands of Ministers, of nations, lands and of races. Your eyes are forever on the world rather than Christ. That's why you never seem to speak of his person or his truth or his call to obedience. Humility and truth are not on your mind.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Despite what you obviously think, this world isn't destined to be saved by a position, a party, the gun, Trump or anyone else. A Christian isn't sitting around concerned that his Pastor should be carrying a big gun into the church to protect it from some imagined lunatic that might threaten them. That's the lust and thinking of the world. True believers know that Christ is the protector of the church and he alone decides who lives and dies. He is sovereign and so ultimately decides both when and where. Get your mind out of the rhetoric of the NRA and into the religion of Christ-centered faith. The best way for the Pastor to protect the church is to keep it faithful, not to bring a magnum up to the pew.  ::)  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on May 24, 2019, 07:03:31 PM

So why are you bringing Trump into this? I was talking about ou liberals trying to beat conservative Christians over the head with Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns. Guns don't kill, people kill.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 24, 2019, 07:54:14 PM
Quote
So why are you bringing Trump into this? I was talking about ou liberals trying to beat conservative Christians over the head with Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns

First, people like Tony Warren, reformer and others have often QUOTED you Scripture regarding "guns" on this thread alone and Tony's "guns and the Bible"  article. You denied it because you did not like what you hear and start making empty accusation that we are "liberals". 

Second, you seem to be obsessed with labeling Christians as "liberal" or "conservative' depending on what they believe in.  Do you realize that the liberal and conservative are NOT theological, but political words as a weapon to divide church?

If I do not support divorce and remarriage, will you accuse me of liberal?

If I do not support homosexual marriage and pastors, will you accuse me of liberal?

If I do not support guns, will you accuse me of liberal?

We go what God's Word actually says on subject, not personal, political, emotional, social, ideologies rhetoric.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Reformer on May 25, 2019, 12:13:12 AM
So why are you bringing Trump into this?

Because as I said, all you Trump supporters have the very same nonspiritual carnal mentality that you can't wait upon the Lord, you have to do everything carnally yourself. Your desire is carnal in that you believe falsely that you can fix the world, make the nations Christian, destroy the liberals, arm the Pastors for the safety of the church, minimize the scriptures, excuse lies when it is expedient, ignore the truth when it is inexpedient, and so on and so forth. You all seem of the same mind and the same mentality of humanism. No trust in God, but plenty of trust in yourself and your so-called God Blessed leaders. That's why! It's always the same inarticulate thinking masquerading as a coherent argument. As Christians, God didn't give us to correct the world, he gave us to go forth and evangelize4 the world. That's why I said what I did. Your mind is on man and this world, mine is on righteousness wherever it may be. We obviously serve two different religions. Mine is to serve the sovereign God of truth and yours to serve the carnal nature of man. As many have already told you, America will never be great, guns will never solve our problems and political leaders or parties will never be on a holy quest of righteousness. Join the church and learn what that means.


Quote
I was talking about ou liberals trying to beat conservative Christians over the head with Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns.

Funny you should mention that. I for one would love to be beaten over the head with scripture. I might learn something.

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

That's not just about your kids or a physical rod, if you could only by grace understand that.


Quote
Guns don't kill, people kill.

Guns do kill, they were invented specifically for that purpose. But as you know, this thread isn't about guns or gun ownership, it's about the appropriateness of Pastors or Ministers taking guns into the house of God to protect the people there. I was always taught that the way the Shepherd protects his sheep was through the word of God. That's the only sword that I ever saw them use. Maybe we have different churches and different shepherds and different Bibles.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This is the sword of judgment my God gives to me, I don't know what sword yours gives.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 25, 2019, 08:27:15 AM
That's not just about your kids or a physical rod, if you could only by grace understand that.

 )amen(  )GoodPopst(

Now there's the power of my God. Truth over rhetoric, bias and Politics. And all God's people said Amen
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Halle on May 25, 2019, 09:47:38 AM
 )amen( Erik!
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Halle on May 25, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
)amen( Erik!

...and Philly and Reformer.
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Trevor on May 26, 2019, 07:46:01 AM
Why? Trying to beat Conservative Christians over the head with a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns could be considered a form of bullying by liberals.

Quote
Trying to beat Conservative Christians over the head with a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with guns

Actually Dan, all Bible verses have something to do with guns, swords, munitions and shields. You just do not understood the spiritual language of God.

Isaiah 33:16
"He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure."

Matthew 26:52
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

Do you not think that God has the capability, the power or the desire to protect his church? Of course he does. He is our only protection from Satan and his ministers. You think he leaves an important thing like that up to a Pastor with a shotgun? You're kidding yourself.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Dan on May 29, 2019, 12:29:15 AM
First, people like Tony Warren, reformer and others have often QUOTED you Scripture regarding "guns" on this thread alone and Tony's "guns and the Bible"  article. You denied it because you did not like what you hear and start making empty accusation that we are "liberals". 

Nothing empty about it. You are liberals because only liberals condemn the President because they don't like that he's pro gun, pro Israel, pro christian, pro states rights, pro economy, pro usa, anti liberal and says what he means.


Quote
Second, you seem to be obsessed with labeling Christians as "liberal" or "conservative' depending on what they believe in.  Do you realize that the liberal and conservative are NOT theological, but political words as a weapon to divide church?

You divided the church when you started this liberal anti gun evil, this amillennial theology and started attacking Israel as not being the true Israel. When you started talking about Christians and ministers not having the common sense to take protection for their flock with them to church. When you started this fake news about our president lying and being immoral. Liberal and conservative are theological terms because they mean Christian and not Christian.

Quote
If I do not support divorce and remarriage, will you accuse me of liberal?

No, I'll call you out of touch and puritanical.


Quote
If I do not support guns, will you accuse me of liberal?

Yes!


Quote
We go what God's Word actually says on subject, not personal, political, emotional, social, ideologies rhetoric.

Doesn't God's word say take up your sword?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

So get it together and listen to those words.

Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 29, 2019, 09:35:34 PM
Quote from: Dan
Doesn't God's word say take up your sword?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

So get it together and listen to those words.

Typical carnal response.

As Tony wrote the other day...

"Jesus told no one that they were now unsafe physically, and should now take up the sword, purse, and script. At least, not in the way that you are attempting to portray it. But we've been down this road before.

Luke 10:3-4..Hmmmmmmm! But then..

Luke 22:35-36
Hmmmmmmm! He who hath an ear, let him hear. And I don't mean Physical ear. Selah!The fact is, many Christians make a conscious decision to choose to believe in, and trust in swords and guns, using verses such as this, improperly, despite the fact that when Peter took up the very literal/physical sword Jesus rebuked him and said (and rather clearly) "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword"....But listen, if you want to go buy a gun and wait for someone to break in your house, you are free to do whatever you want. make your peace with God, not with me. It's your prerogative if that makes you feel safe. But as for me and my house, we will trust in the Lord, knowing that our sword is the word of God, our purse is the treasure that is hidden in a field, where one has sold all to obtain, and our script is the Hidden Manna, the bread from heaven. And truly, knowing this, "we are prepared." We lack nothing!

Daniel 3:17-18

Was Daniel tempting the Lord? I can't imagine Christians today having such faith and such trust. So Fred, I'm sure you would call that tempting the Lord. But the fact is, God is not only able, but will deliver His elect from a burglar, thief, car jacker. Or consider that maybe He sent them as a chastisement. Either way, you're not going to rewrite history by having a gun. You think that God watches over the sparrows but leaves "His People" to fend for themselves to die at the hands of a "Thief In The Night" No, No, No, My God is a much different God than that. A God where not a hair of our head perishes without His say so. Reformed disfunction and misunderstanding of conservatism notwithstanding. I don't follow traditions of men, but of God.For my faith tells me that it is foolish to think that I or my family would be killed, because I didn't have a Gun, and God hath not allowed it. Selah. It is equally foolish for me to think that if I were to purchase a gun, I would prevent my death, or the death of anyone close to me. But that's just me. I believe that (all lip service to "Sovereignty of God" aside) God is still in control, He still has the say of who lives and who dies. You may think your gun is making you more secure, but that is nothing but a worldly illusion. If your peace of mind is determined by a hand full of steel, then there's definitely a trust/faith problem. That's my view.   

He who hath an ear, let him hear!"
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Bunyan on May 30, 2019, 07:07:20 AM
Nothing empty about it. You are liberals because only liberals condemn the President

Clearly not true and just another lie perpetrated by the children of the Devil intended to misdirect from the truth, as all lies are.

 
Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Mark on May 31, 2019, 07:10:32 PM

Amen Erik, well said.  )GoodPopst(

Psalm 9:9-10

 9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.


Title: Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
Post by: Nikki on June 07, 2019, 01:32:18 PM
many Christians make a conscious decision to choose to believe in, and trust in swords and guns, using verses such as this, improperly, despite the fact that when Peter took up the very literal/physical sword Jesus rebuked him and said (and rather clearly) "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword"....But listen, if you want to go buy a gun and wait for someone to break in your house, you are free to do whatever you want. make your peace with God, not with me. It's your prerogative if that makes you feel safe. But as for me and my house, we will trust in the Lord, knowing that our sword is the word of God, our purse is the treasure that is hidden in a field, where one has sold all to obtain, and our script is the Hidden Manna, the bread from heaven. And truly, knowing this, "we are prepared." We lack nothing!

 )preach_(  Nice! And not one of us is going to die before our time. God is sovereign. It seems not everyone believes that.